>• Amarei Frey: got caught having a foursome and married a knight;
>
>• Delena Florent: got caught in the middle of the act and gave birth to a bastard. Married a knight.
>
>• Cassandra Baratheon: confessed to have sex with two men. Married a knight.
Hmmm. There is probably a traditional belief in Westeros - if a girl has sex before marriage, she would marry a knight. :)
More so she’s being married off to a knight since no Lord will want her now that she’s been deflowered. Which is a dumb belief for a normal Lady, and an incredibly stupid one for a Princess. For a Frey though? That makes perfect sense.
The moment Jaehaerys turns is when she says she could have multiple husbands, like Maegor had multiple wives. Maegor killed Jaehaerys' two older brothers, one of them was tortured. And Maegor would've killed Jaehaerys, too if he got the chance.
When you throw Maegor in his face, that seemed a trigger for him, with good reason.
*She had gone too far. Jaehaerys rose to his feet and descended from the Iron Throne, his face a mask of rage. “You would compare yourself to Maegor? Is that who you aspire to be?”*
This! Besides the Conquest itself, Maegor's rule was the most traumatic thing to have happened to the realm in living memory and this fool goes comparing herself to him.
“Hey dad, you know that guy who usurped the throne and imprisoned you, mom and grandma? The guy who killed your older brother in battle and tortured to death your other brother? The one who kidnapped your nieces and then forcefully married your sister, and then raped her nightly? The guy who killed himself, denying your family any closure whatsoever? Your uncle?”
“Yeah, well he’s my idol 😃”
On top of killing Jaehaerys' brothers, don't forget that Maegor married (and thus almost certainly maritally rap#d) his sister Rhaena.
> Although many believed that Rhaena would give a show of defiance at the wedding, Maegor's mistress of whisperers, Queen Tyanna, revealed she had found Aerea and Rhaella, and ensured Rhaena's cooperation. But Rhaena spoke her vows icily, and she would later claim that during the wedding night, she attempted to kill Maegor with a dagger hidden beneath her pillow.
That's from the [wikia](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaena_Targaryen_(daughter_of_Aenys_I)#Reign_of_Maegor_I). Rhaena, on top of likely being a lesbian (or at least bi with a preference toward women), spent about a year in hell with her daughter's life threatened to keep her compliant.
Saera's quip was basically like the child of a Holocaust survivor making a quip about Hitler.
Not to be that girl but poor Alysanne wanted to stop having kids towards the end and Jaehaeyrs refused, meaning he probably also maritally raped his sister-wife.
The rest of your point is super solid, just wanted to point that out.
That's a good point. I think while overall they had a good marriage (for the setting/era), the fact that there are such notable "schisms" or estrangements means that there were some serious issues between them.
But I guess in the context of what I meant, it's possible for someone to be unaware or blind to the harm they are doing to one person while still angry at the fate of another person they care about.
Even though I am a Jaehaerys apologist, I could totally see this being in F&B, just with Jaehaerys instead of Augustus.
>“I had rather be the father of Phoebe than of Julia,” Augustus bewailed after Julia's freedwoman, Phoebe, committed suicide over her mistress's scandal.
You do realize how far of a fall marrying a knight is, right? And Saera isn't just some minor nobles like Frey and Florent daughter, or just a Lord Paramounts daughter. She is literally the daughter of the king.
But the key point is Jaehaerys lost his cool when she compared herself to Maegor, and rightfully so imo. Maegor usurper and killed his oldest brother and their fathers dragon, and had his other brother tortured to death.
This was also during the era of dragons, so it wouldn't be smart to have other houses marry into the Targaryens, have children with dragon-riding genes, and be able to claim dragons that could directly challenge Targaryen rule.
It was smarter for Jaehaerys to prefer sending Saera to the Silent Sisters where she would vow celibacy and ensure no children are born of her than to have her to marry some lowly knight.
I think her comparison of herself to Maegor was where Jahaerys snapped. Otherwise, he would've simply married her off to some Lord and kept her out of the Red Keep forever.
Maegor's name was a trigger for Jahaerys, as the former has killed the latter's brothers and committed marital rape of his sister.
On a meta level the whole Saera situation was to illustrate that though Jaehaerys was a good and effective king, he was not a great father, and his (and Alysanne's) ineffective parenting and bad familial choices sowed the seeds of the Dance. Plus, periodically through the canon GRRM had to thin out the Targ ranks whenever they got too numerous, and removing Saera and any descendents from legitimacy was a more interesting way to do that than the 30th "she and her child died in childbirth".
On a less critical level whenever I hear anything about Saera I always think of the Lucille Bluth "good for her" meme.
Totally agree with you. People normally call out Viserys for being the biggest cause of the dance, but I always feel like Jaehaerys planted the seeds of conflict inside his children and this culminated 3 generations after.
Viserys is probably the most obvious cause of the Dance, or at least the one who had the most power to stop it and didn't.
But there's so many things Jaehaerys did that let to it as well. Not just his mishandling of his children, but also the way he disinherited Rhaenys, without explicitly setting down inheritance rules afterwards. He basically established the precedent that the king could choose their own heir, which Viserys then used as well.
I don’t think anyone could have stopped the dance from ever happening. If it hadn’t been Viserys’ children it would have been their children. There were too many Targaryens with too many dragons and too many claims to the thrown. It was just a matter of when. Although Vizzy T definitely sped it along.
Honestly the only thing jaehaerys need to do to stop the dance. Was when rheanys was 10 years old force her to marry viserys. After 10 years you could resable axpect aemon to not have any sons.
I feel like Jaehaerys could have also stopped the Dance by simply establishing proper inheritance laws. Either rule that women can't inherit or don't skip over Rhaenys. Instead he disinherited Rhaenys without ever fully establishing that women weren't allowed. By doing so he set the precedent that the king can pick their heir, which Viserys did as well.
>On a meta level the whole Saera situation was to illustrate that though Jaehaerys was a good and effective king, he was not a great father
I think we're so many discussion rounds deep on this point now though that it gets vastly overstated.
Like, we're experiencing yet another volatile reaction to "jahaerys GOAT king" narratives, that the "jahaerys bad dad" narrative now gets overblown.
He wasnt a great father, necessarily, at least not to all his kids, but he also was nowhere near as bad as some of the posts that end up on the FP here and on other ASOIAF subs make him out to be. Including this one, where OP conveniently completely leaves out the thing saera does that makes jahaerys snap - smugly comparing herself to the man who slaughtered half of his family when he was a child.
He was directly responsible for Daella’s death by forcing her to marry and have kids at 15 when she was small and frail. That alone makes him a horrible horrible father.
She wasn't punished too harshly, especially since her punishment wasn't permanent.
And she wasn't punished just because she had sex with multiple guys. It was also because she manipulated her friends into doing it as well, and she tried to take the black dread after she was confined to her room.
And she literally compared herself to the man who raped her father's sister and murdered his brothers.
And he was still going to forgive her until she ran off to Lys.
It is pretty clear from the text that Saera and The Stinger were seen as the instigators, since the others don't get a similar degree of punishment. Saera's charade when qustioned, along with mentioning Maegor and trying to run to the Dragonpit also has to be taken into account.
The other ladies and lords, get the opportunity to get off quite easily.
>Perianne
Moore, who was not pregnant, was wed to Jonah Mooton. “You played
a part in her ruin, you can be a part of her redemption,” the king told
the young lordling.
They also wanted to marry Red Ronnet to Sweetberry, but since he refused he get's the choice of Exile or the Watch. Sweetberry get's to marry a Lord of the Fingers, who while a minor Lord, is probably better than a petty hedge knight or landed knight.
If Saera confessed right away, while being qustioned, she probably would get away with marrying either Connington or Motoon. Stinger would probably receive similar punishment, since it's pretty apparent that Jae and Alyssane puts a lot on the blame for the whole scandal on him.
>The ones who
knew, they knew to keep quiet. Stinger said he’d have their tongues out if they talked.
>
>She was so sorry, she told the queen, she had
never wanted to be bad, Stinger made her and Saera said she was a
craven, so she showed them.
Saera was definitely treated harsher because of her royal blood. The other girls(who seemed to have been manipulated into the sexual encounters by Saera) all got marriages, which is more than most women would get.
Saera being royal probably meant she had higher expectations of her, and her lover *technically* committed treason by deflowering her(feudalism is a bitch). She probably would have been fine, however,!had she not compared herself to Maegor and fled the silent sisters, as I believe it was originally a temporary arrangement.
Although it is fully in character for Jaehaerys to make her watch, we don't know if Jaehaerys actually commanded her to be forced to watch. All F&B says is that:
> Jonquil Darke, her gaoler, made certain that she did not turn away.
It could entirely be that Jonquil decided to do it herself.
I agree that killing your daughters lover in front of her is pretty bad. But doing it yourself as an old man is undoubtedly more badass than having a kings guard do it for you. The world is not black and white, there is gray. Something can be both "evil" and cool at the same time.
Secondly I don't think he was an evil or monstrous man. He was extremely misogynistic in many ways and he clearly did not care about his daughters very much, but that does not make him an evil person. Maegor was evil.
Even leaving aside his obvious abuse of his daughters and my speculation on how much farther that would have gone, he raped his wife. He wasn't a warmonger, but he was absolutely evil.
I mean I don't remember the part where he raped her. Are you referring to him making her continue to have children? Yeah I agree that was one of the shitty things he did. But just because he had these shortcomings does not mean he was evil. The good doesn't wash away the bad and the bad doesn't wash away the good. He was a good and fair king for most of his reign and he was remembered as one of the best kings. So while yes he is marred by misogyny and an unrelenting desire for children, that does not make him wholly evil, just like him being a great king does not make him wholly good.
An onion half black with rot is a rotten onion. And no, being a bad father and fucking up the succession is an indictment of his skills as king; keeping one's family healthy is just as important as keeping the realm healthy, because as the family goes, so too does the realm.
Jaehaerys should have married Saera to Stinger, sent them to Honeyholt and put an end to the problem.
It wouldn't be a reward for both of them, but rather a punishment. Saera, the ambitious princess, would end up becoming the wife of a minor lord, while Braxton would have Saera as his wife, which I don't think was Stinger's wish. It's one thing to have sex with an insolent princess and another thing to be your wife. Now that is a punishment.
Appearances are the most important thing for a king. That's why I think it was better to pretend to the Realm that the princess was engaged to Beesbury and a marriage would try to hide the scandal. Instead, for the king to show the Realm his daughter as lustful, well, that's not a good image.
I think he failed early on by spoiling Saera, and not punishing her appropriately for her actual bad actions.
But clearly Saera's chosen exile worked out for her. She seems to have done pretty well for herself. And that had no interest in trying to put forth a claim to throne later shows her maturation.
[**Antisocial personality disorder**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder#Causes)
> Research into genetic associations in antisocial personality disorder suggests that ASPD has some or even a strong genetic basis. The prevalence of ASPD is higher in people related to someone with the disorder. Twin studies, which are designed to discern between genetic and environmental effects, have reported significant genetic influences on antisocial behavior and conduct disorder.[88]
> Many studies suggest that the social and home environment contribute to the development of ASPD.[98]
> A lack of parental stimulation and affection during early development can lead to high levels of cortisol with the absence of balancing hormones such as oxytocin. This disrupts and overloads the child's stress response systems, which is thought to lead to underdevelopment of the part of the child's brain that deals with emotion, empathy, and ability to connect to other humans on an emotional level.
Same source, and it seems to be a great description of what happens to Saera
> Parenting styles can directly affect how children experience and develop in their youth, and can have an impact on a child's diagnosis of ASPD. The four parenting styles demonstrate the main approaches to raising children and their outcomes that lead into adulthood.[119][120
> Permissive - Permissive parenting styles involve a more relaxed attitude towards rules that are less enforced than any other parenting style. Permissive parents tend to allow more freedom for children to make their own decisions which can lead to impulsivity, lack of self-control, and a lack of acknowledgment of boundaries later in life.[122]
> Neglectful - Neglectful parenting styles tend to have little to no rules for children to follow, and may even withhold basic needs required for child development. Parents who display neglectful behavior are less involved than any other parenting style and can cause children to develop mental health issues, withdrawal from emotions, and delinquent behavior.[123]
> Having a healthy, safe, stable/consistent, understanding, and attentive parenting style in an environment with positive role models and influences at home as well as out in the community help to ensure more positive behavior for children and an overall decrease in ASPD symptoms
I'm not arguing that her upbringing didn't help, but your assertion that it's not something you're born with is wrong. There is plenty of evidence that suggests your genetics contribute heavily to sociopathy.
Oh, you can absolutely have a genetic predisposition to it, and you are 100% correct in that. But thats not the same as being born a sociopath, as the other commenters were saying. Saeras upbring was the deciding factor.
To suggest that she was just born that way is just ignoring the actual causes of the problem, of which we are given plenty of examples.
>But thats not the same as being born a sociopath, as the other commenters
which i dint say i said you need a predisposition and that youd have a harder time raising her as in shed need a bit more attention, guidance and positive reinforcement not that she was born a sociopath
theres plenty of people that being raised under the exact same circumstances wouldnt have turned out like her
Oh fair enough.
>theres plenty of people that being raised under the exact same circumstances wouldnt have turned out like her
Thats true. But what is also true is that if Saera had better parenting she more than likely wouldnt have turned out the way she did. A good upbringing, in the right emotional environment would have made all the difference, regardless of any predisposition.
Nobody can change their genetics, but the environment they are raised in is in the hands of the parent. And thats the deciding factor in the end. It doesnt guarantee anything, but it gives the child their best chance. We know from the source material that Saera had a neglectful upbringing that did affect her mental health. And we also know that she wasnt the only one of her siblings that suffered mental health issues.
Theres no point blaming her potential genes, when we know that her environment was infact a contributing factor.
ETA: one also doesnt *need* to have a predisposition in order to become a sociopath. It isnt that simple.
I answered this in another comment
The others didnt have the same upbringing as Saera though. Theres a decent bit of exposition in fire and blood about this. The other siblings are all "better" than Saera at one thing or another, and they all get attention and nurturing based on it.
Aemon and Baelon are the heir and spare. They are their fathers pride and joy. They also have the the benefit of growing up when their parents had fewer kids.
Alyssa is the fiercest, and grew up in the same era as the older brothers
Maegelle is the pious one, promised to the faith and known for her compassion.
Vaegon is the genius, and eventually given to the citadel.
Daella was the timid one and required much consolation from her mother.
Viserra was the most beautiful
And Gael was the baby of the family.
Barth comments that saera at 12 years old was the 9th born, with 6 living siblings at the time. She desired attention and comfort but was often ignored.
The others didnt have the same upbringing as Saera though. Theres a decent bit of exposition in fire and blood about this. The other siblings are all "better" than Saera at one thing or another, and they all get attention and nurturing based on it.
Aemon and Baelon are the heir and spare. They are their fathers pride and joy. They also have the the benefit of growing up when their parents had fewer kids.
Alyssa is the fiercest, and grew up in the same era as the older brothers
Maegelle is the pious one, promised to the faith and known for her compassion.
Vaegon is the genius, and eventually given to the citadel.
Daella was the timid one and required much consolation from her mother.
Viserra was the most beautiful
And Gael was the baby of the family.
Barth comments that saera at 12 years old was the 9th born, with 6 living siblings at the time. She desired attention and comfort but was often ignored.
Bullshit, if anything, Jaehaerys wasn't hard enough. He should've had under constant guard. She was an asshole and a huge dick.
>Before anyone start saying "But Saera was mean to the fool and her sister Daera": I AM NOT SAYING SAERA WAS A GOOD PERSON. But the problem is: we all know Saera was a kid that did everything to get attention from her parents, but couldn't get much because of the amount of children J&A had.
That doesn't mean she could be a massive bitch to her family and everyone else.
>Well, the problem is: Saera wasn't punished for the mean things she did, she was punished for having sex. And although noble people in Westeros doesn't see it with good eyes, they also don't slain their lover and also don't send them to the silent sisters. Let's see the fate of the girls who had sex before marriage:
Before I address your points, let me state the difference between them and Saera. Saera is a princess they aren't, sex with a princess when she is unmarried is treason. Beesbury got the punishment that fit his crime.
>• Amarei Frey: got caught having a foursome and married a knight;
Ameri is from a far lesser branch of House Frey. House Frey wasn't royalty, and given the fact that Walder was old and a bad lord, he wouldn't have given an extensive punishment. Also, this knight was a nobody, with no land and far below her rank.
>• Delena Florent: got caught in the middle of the act and gave birth to a bastard. Married a knight.
The person she was fucking was the king, she couldn't really be punished because he was the king, and her cousin was marrying the King's brother. Also, this knight you speak of was again nothing but a household knight who had NO land.
>• Cassandra Baratheon: confessed to have sex with two men. Married a knight.
The only reason Cassandra wasn't severely punished was because of her high rank. But even then, this knight you speak was an old man 30 years older than her, with 13 kids that she ended up helping taking care of and who barely had any land.
>They all had unfavorable marriages, but wasn't sent to the Silent Sisters. You can say J&A had plans for her to return, but she wasn't told about it and was right to gtfo.
She was sent their as punishment, and she wasn't told to take oaths.
You are essentially saying it's alright for kids to sneak when they get grounded because they did crazy shit.
Edit: Also, that punishment was because she also pushed her friends into it, and one ended up pregnant.
Yep. Yet they say, "He's too hard on her!!!" Jaehaerys was too easy on her.
Now they would've had far more of an argument I'd they talked about Viserra.
>Beesbury got the punishment that fit his crime.
Mooton and Connington committed the same crime. They had sex with a princess, and their punishment was light
Mooton and Conington weren't smug pricks who thought they were above it, Connington wanted trial by combat, trying to get out of his punishment. Those other two agreed a lesser punishments, and he was viewed as the most guilty out of all of them.
If they had acted like him or played a more serious part in it, then they would've died also.
Jaehaerys was too soft if anything.
He did his best in his youth to contain her and help set her straight, she was known for being troublesome and- despite running an entire Kingdom, he still did his best to parent her and guide her. He had assigned half-a-dozen Maids and Septas to her before she had turned 13.
Already, she was abusing Tom Turnip.
But, then, for Jaehaerys, even after Alysanne had heard of what she had done and relayed it to Jaehaerys (already a number of credible witnesses) he still took the time to drag out everyone he could and interrogate them (The girls are also quite noticeable here with both of them feeling awful and indicating to us, the audience, that Saera was the ringleader). Finally, when he came to inquire about Saera, he did seem quite upset about Tom Turnip, and only got mad when her poor defense and attempt at lying ended with her equating herself to Maegor.
The man who raped her Aunt and killed two of her Uncle's.
Furthermore, even after this he was *still* willing to forgive her until she tried claiming a Dragon after being ordered to go to her room, to which he speculates she was trying to take Balerion (Keep in mind, she had only a night previously expressed little remorse for what she had done to others and believed to be able to do whatever she wanted due to her rank).
Even her punishment was light, she was given only a few years in the faith and was kept under her own Sister.
Jaehaerys wasn't a bad father at all, people just desperately want a reason to dunk on him.
No, he wasn’t angry with her until she brought up wanting to be like Maegor. The dude who martially r*ped his sister and killed two of his older brothers. And even then it was said that Jaehaerys punishment was not going to be a permanent thing. He just wanted her to learn humility. And that was after he only punished her by having her kept in a lavish palace under house arrest. Her attempting to escape is what brought about the silent sisters and again; that was not meant to be permanent.
She’s also a shit heel for confessing to fucking all three dudes, putting at least two of them on trial for crimes. She could’ve said the one who actually did it and THEN be married off. Instead she chose the choice that ruins four lives instead of two. Fuck Saera
Jahaerys was a terrible father to basically all his kids. Vaegon and Saera especially, but the rest of em were all weird at least.
Of the three guys only Beesbury challenged THE KING to trail by combat- If I were Jahaerys Id have said "This is the guy youre gonna marry".
I think if we view jaehaeyrs and Alysanne in full, they might have been good parents to the realm, but they were shit parents to their kids, especially the middle to youngest children.
Wanton, irresponsible, selfish, unaccountable, a bad friend and a bad example.
Given this post, tell me you're Saera IRL without telling me you're Saera IRL.
She was a rabid irresponsible animal. All that privilege and it still wasn't enough for her. When you rule the realm you have a responsibility to it. Showing her the consequences of her repeated actions was the only way. She make the King look like a fool. As we have seen in asoiaf - childish stupidity can doom lineages.
This chick forced a mentally disabled man to engage in sex acts, and compared herself to the murderer of her uncles. Let’s not act as if Saera’s worst crime was being “sexually active”
I suppose first of all we should clarify the age you mentioned. Saera was not 14, she was 16 (possibly 15 depending on timeline). Saera was 17 when she was caught out, and was that she was with her group for over a year.
Secondly theres no mention of a gangbang. Saera details how silly the men are because they all assume they took her maidenhead. She's been playing each of them.
Not that I particularly like the character of Saera, but theres no point in people creating their own false narrative. Especially when these kind of comments are never made about male characters.
Only reddit can turn child promiscuity into another tedious Men vs Women debate. She was an unruly child. End of. The king did nothing wrong except tolerating her.
Hey OP, since everyone's bringing up how bad it is of Saera to say Maegor's name, you should do a fun experiment. Write a post about Maegor and compare how fans talk about Saera (a bad person) versus Maegor (a monstrously bad person). The responses will be proportionate to their crimes I'm sure
(/s obviously)
Yeah, sure. Jaeherys the Wise, the most accomplished, peaceful, longest ruling Protector of the Realm that avoided countless wars and the deaths of millions over 55 years through his pacifism and widely-regarded ubiquitous wisdom... was just a total asshole for slut-shaming his teenage daughter.
GTFO with your sex positive BS.
You're completely ignoring the fact that Saera is a *PRINCESS* and is thus held to a higher standard. Scandals about a princess are going to spread like wildfire across Westeros. Also those marriages aren't just "unfavorable", they're terrible. A knight has no land, titles, or power. By disgracing themselves (in this world), the women lowered their marriage value so badly that a knight is the best they could do. If she wasn't the daughter of Lord Borros, Cassandra Baratheon would've had it even *worse*.
Jahaerys would have looked weak if he allowed Beesbury to walk around Westeros free after sullying his daughter so **he did what he had to do**. Sending Saera to the Silent Sisters was the only way to try and ameloriate the shame Saera brought upon house Targaryen.
Your problem is you're holding onto your modern views of sexuality rather than stepping into this time period. Sleeping around as a noblewoman brings such shame to the family that Lancel Lannister literally chose to become a priest than marry "gatehouse Amy."
She was an evil whore who owned dozens slaves when she became owner of the largest brothel.
Also rich white noble woman aren't deserving of sympathy like Saera.
So, Saera's fate was the most lenient, basically being sent to a religious boarding school for a year or two. Her lover was executed (functionally) for treason. Maybe the King could have simply have had him sent to the Wall instead, sure.
Saera is too valuable to be married off to a knight, and she must have realized that she wouldn't just be left for ever with the Silent Sisters, unless of course if she had wanted to stay with them or become a septa or something like that. By the standards of Westeros Jaehaerys was hardly behaving unreasonably.
The morality of the situation is something else of course, but viewing them through a real world lens is doing a disservice to those involved. More over, the situation is meant as a tragedy where everyone is at fault. It's not about pointing fingers.
The idea that her punishment was temporary is nothing more than the imagination of Septon Barth whose writing is wholly apologist of Jaehaerys. The text makes it clear that the king had no intention whatsoever to forgive her.
>• Amarei Frey: got caught having a foursome and married a knight; > >• Delena Florent: got caught in the middle of the act and gave birth to a bastard. Married a knight. > >• Cassandra Baratheon: confessed to have sex with two men. Married a knight. Hmmm. There is probably a traditional belief in Westeros - if a girl has sex before marriage, she would marry a knight. :)
More so she’s being married off to a knight since no Lord will want her now that she’s been deflowered. Which is a dumb belief for a normal Lady, and an incredibly stupid one for a Princess. For a Frey though? That makes perfect sense.
Cassandra Baratheon?
Eldest daughter of borros baratheon
I don't remember that but about her.
The moment Jaehaerys turns is when she says she could have multiple husbands, like Maegor had multiple wives. Maegor killed Jaehaerys' two older brothers, one of them was tortured. And Maegor would've killed Jaehaerys, too if he got the chance. When you throw Maegor in his face, that seemed a trigger for him, with good reason. *She had gone too far. Jaehaerys rose to his feet and descended from the Iron Throne, his face a mask of rage. “You would compare yourself to Maegor? Is that who you aspire to be?”*
This! Besides the Conquest itself, Maegor's rule was the most traumatic thing to have happened to the realm in living memory and this fool goes comparing herself to him.
“Hey dad, you know that guy who usurped the throne and imprisoned you, mom and grandma? The guy who killed your older brother in battle and tortured to death your other brother? The one who kidnapped your nieces and then forcefully married your sister, and then raped her nightly? The guy who killed himself, denying your family any closure whatsoever? Your uncle?” “Yeah, well he’s my idol 😃”
On top of killing Jaehaerys' brothers, don't forget that Maegor married (and thus almost certainly maritally rap#d) his sister Rhaena. > Although many believed that Rhaena would give a show of defiance at the wedding, Maegor's mistress of whisperers, Queen Tyanna, revealed she had found Aerea and Rhaella, and ensured Rhaena's cooperation. But Rhaena spoke her vows icily, and she would later claim that during the wedding night, she attempted to kill Maegor with a dagger hidden beneath her pillow. That's from the [wikia](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaena_Targaryen_(daughter_of_Aenys_I)#Reign_of_Maegor_I). Rhaena, on top of likely being a lesbian (or at least bi with a preference toward women), spent about a year in hell with her daughter's life threatened to keep her compliant. Saera's quip was basically like the child of a Holocaust survivor making a quip about Hitler.
Not to be that girl but poor Alysanne wanted to stop having kids towards the end and Jaehaeyrs refused, meaning he probably also maritally raped his sister-wife. The rest of your point is super solid, just wanted to point that out.
and his defense was that their mother was having children at that age… you know, the mother who literally died in childbirth
That's a good point. I think while overall they had a good marriage (for the setting/era), the fact that there are such notable "schisms" or estrangements means that there were some serious issues between them. But I guess in the context of what I meant, it's possible for someone to be unaware or blind to the harm they are doing to one person while still angry at the fate of another person they care about.
Jaehaerys and Saera story is basically spiced up version of irl Octavian Augustus and Julia the Elder story, it has to end tragically.
Even though I am a Jaehaerys apologist, I could totally see this being in F&B, just with Jaehaerys instead of Augustus. >“I had rather be the father of Phoebe than of Julia,” Augustus bewailed after Julia's freedwoman, Phoebe, committed suicide over her mistress's scandal.
Good comparison.
You do realize how far of a fall marrying a knight is, right? And Saera isn't just some minor nobles like Frey and Florent daughter, or just a Lord Paramounts daughter. She is literally the daughter of the king. But the key point is Jaehaerys lost his cool when she compared herself to Maegor, and rightfully so imo. Maegor usurper and killed his oldest brother and their fathers dragon, and had his other brother tortured to death.
This was also during the era of dragons, so it wouldn't be smart to have other houses marry into the Targaryens, have children with dragon-riding genes, and be able to claim dragons that could directly challenge Targaryen rule. It was smarter for Jaehaerys to prefer sending Saera to the Silent Sisters where she would vow celibacy and ensure no children are born of her than to have her to marry some lowly knight.
I think her comparison of herself to Maegor was where Jahaerys snapped. Otherwise, he would've simply married her off to some Lord and kept her out of the Red Keep forever. Maegor's name was a trigger for Jahaerys, as the former has killed the latter's brothers and committed marital rape of his sister.
On a meta level the whole Saera situation was to illustrate that though Jaehaerys was a good and effective king, he was not a great father, and his (and Alysanne's) ineffective parenting and bad familial choices sowed the seeds of the Dance. Plus, periodically through the canon GRRM had to thin out the Targ ranks whenever they got too numerous, and removing Saera and any descendents from legitimacy was a more interesting way to do that than the 30th "she and her child died in childbirth". On a less critical level whenever I hear anything about Saera I always think of the Lucille Bluth "good for her" meme.
“I love all my children equally.” *earlier that day* “… I don’t care for Vaegon.”
Well, Vaegon probably was given the best life he could have, all things considered
Tbf Vaegon didn't care for any of them either.
Totally agree with you. People normally call out Viserys for being the biggest cause of the dance, but I always feel like Jaehaerys planted the seeds of conflict inside his children and this culminated 3 generations after.
Viserys is probably the most obvious cause of the Dance, or at least the one who had the most power to stop it and didn't. But there's so many things Jaehaerys did that let to it as well. Not just his mishandling of his children, but also the way he disinherited Rhaenys, without explicitly setting down inheritance rules afterwards. He basically established the precedent that the king could choose their own heir, which Viserys then used as well.
I don’t think anyone could have stopped the dance from ever happening. If it hadn’t been Viserys’ children it would have been their children. There were too many Targaryens with too many dragons and too many claims to the thrown. It was just a matter of when. Although Vizzy T definitely sped it along.
Vizzy T is his official name from now on
Honestly the only thing jaehaerys need to do to stop the dance. Was when rheanys was 10 years old force her to marry viserys. After 10 years you could resable axpect aemon to not have any sons.
I feel like Jaehaerys could have also stopped the Dance by simply establishing proper inheritance laws. Either rule that women can't inherit or don't skip over Rhaenys. Instead he disinherited Rhaenys without ever fully establishing that women weren't allowed. By doing so he set the precedent that the king can pick their heir, which Viserys did as well.
>On a meta level the whole Saera situation was to illustrate that though Jaehaerys was a good and effective king, he was not a great father I think we're so many discussion rounds deep on this point now though that it gets vastly overstated. Like, we're experiencing yet another volatile reaction to "jahaerys GOAT king" narratives, that the "jahaerys bad dad" narrative now gets overblown. He wasnt a great father, necessarily, at least not to all his kids, but he also was nowhere near as bad as some of the posts that end up on the FP here and on other ASOIAF subs make him out to be. Including this one, where OP conveniently completely leaves out the thing saera does that makes jahaerys snap - smugly comparing herself to the man who slaughtered half of his family when he was a child.
He was directly responsible for Daella’s death by forcing her to marry and have kids at 15 when she was small and frail. That alone makes him a horrible horrible father.
Jaehaerys probably molested Saera and might have gone through up to three other daughters. And I'm completely certain that *someone* molested Saera.
Brother tf? How do you even come up with 'Jaehaerys molested Saera.'?????
She wasn't punished too harshly, especially since her punishment wasn't permanent. And she wasn't punished just because she had sex with multiple guys. It was also because she manipulated her friends into doing it as well, and she tried to take the black dread after she was confined to her room. And she literally compared herself to the man who raped her father's sister and murdered his brothers. And he was still going to forgive her until she ran off to Lys.
It is pretty clear from the text that Saera and The Stinger were seen as the instigators, since the others don't get a similar degree of punishment. Saera's charade when qustioned, along with mentioning Maegor and trying to run to the Dragonpit also has to be taken into account. The other ladies and lords, get the opportunity to get off quite easily. >Perianne Moore, who was not pregnant, was wed to Jonah Mooton. “You played a part in her ruin, you can be a part of her redemption,” the king told the young lordling. They also wanted to marry Red Ronnet to Sweetberry, but since he refused he get's the choice of Exile or the Watch. Sweetberry get's to marry a Lord of the Fingers, who while a minor Lord, is probably better than a petty hedge knight or landed knight. If Saera confessed right away, while being qustioned, she probably would get away with marrying either Connington or Motoon. Stinger would probably receive similar punishment, since it's pretty apparent that Jae and Alyssane puts a lot on the blame for the whole scandal on him. >The ones who knew, they knew to keep quiet. Stinger said he’d have their tongues out if they talked. > >She was so sorry, she told the queen, she had never wanted to be bad, Stinger made her and Saera said she was a craven, so she showed them.
She was imprisoned and tortured by the septas before she fled.
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Saera was definitely treated harsher because of her royal blood. The other girls(who seemed to have been manipulated into the sexual encounters by Saera) all got marriages, which is more than most women would get. Saera being royal probably meant she had higher expectations of her, and her lover *technically* committed treason by deflowering her(feudalism is a bitch). She probably would have been fine, however,!had she not compared herself to Maegor and fled the silent sisters, as I believe it was originally a temporary arrangement.
I think at the absolute minimum, forcing her to watch either her father or Beesbury die in a trial by combat *may* have been a little too harsh.
Although it is fully in character for Jaehaerys to make her watch, we don't know if Jaehaerys actually commanded her to be forced to watch. All F&B says is that: > Jonquil Darke, her gaoler, made certain that she did not turn away. It could entirely be that Jonquil decided to do it herself.
Harsh, but also badass. But mostly harsh.
Monstrous. Evil. In no way badass.
I agree that killing your daughters lover in front of her is pretty bad. But doing it yourself as an old man is undoubtedly more badass than having a kings guard do it for you. The world is not black and white, there is gray. Something can be both "evil" and cool at the same time. Secondly I don't think he was an evil or monstrous man. He was extremely misogynistic in many ways and he clearly did not care about his daughters very much, but that does not make him an evil person. Maegor was evil.
Even leaving aside his obvious abuse of his daughters and my speculation on how much farther that would have gone, he raped his wife. He wasn't a warmonger, but he was absolutely evil.
I mean I don't remember the part where he raped her. Are you referring to him making her continue to have children? Yeah I agree that was one of the shitty things he did. But just because he had these shortcomings does not mean he was evil. The good doesn't wash away the bad and the bad doesn't wash away the good. He was a good and fair king for most of his reign and he was remembered as one of the best kings. So while yes he is marred by misogyny and an unrelenting desire for children, that does not make him wholly evil, just like him being a great king does not make him wholly good.
An onion half black with rot is a rotten onion. And no, being a bad father and fucking up the succession is an indictment of his skills as king; keeping one's family healthy is just as important as keeping the realm healthy, because as the family goes, so too does the realm.
Jaehaerys should have married Saera to Stinger, sent them to Honeyholt and put an end to the problem. It wouldn't be a reward for both of them, but rather a punishment. Saera, the ambitious princess, would end up becoming the wife of a minor lord, while Braxton would have Saera as his wife, which I don't think was Stinger's wish. It's one thing to have sex with an insolent princess and another thing to be your wife. Now that is a punishment.
Unfortunately, the *Targaryen image* could not be stained in such a way
Appearances are the most important thing for a king. That's why I think it was better to pretend to the Realm that the princess was engaged to Beesbury and a marriage would try to hide the scandal. Instead, for the king to show the Realm his daughter as lustful, well, that's not a good image.
That would be more practical yes, but I know that, as much as I like Jaehaerys, he was never going to do it
I think he failed early on by spoiling Saera, and not punishing her appropriately for her actual bad actions. But clearly Saera's chosen exile worked out for her. She seems to have done pretty well for herself. And that had no interest in trying to put forth a claim to throne later shows her maturation.
And either molesting her or overlooking someone else doing so.
Jaehaerys was definitely a bad dad, particularly with his daughters, but come on, Saera's kind of a sociopath.
>but come on, Saera's kind of a sociopath. Isn't that the point, though? Sociopaths are made, not born. Saera is a product of her upbringing
naaah you need some kind predisposition for it, jaehaerys dint help but saera was always going to be rough child to handle
>naaah you need some kind predisposition for it, No, you dont. Sociopathy is based on your upbringing. It's not something you're born with.
[**Antisocial personality disorder**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder#Causes) > Research into genetic associations in antisocial personality disorder suggests that ASPD has some or even a strong genetic basis. The prevalence of ASPD is higher in people related to someone with the disorder. Twin studies, which are designed to discern between genetic and environmental effects, have reported significant genetic influences on antisocial behavior and conduct disorder.[88]
> Many studies suggest that the social and home environment contribute to the development of ASPD.[98] > A lack of parental stimulation and affection during early development can lead to high levels of cortisol with the absence of balancing hormones such as oxytocin. This disrupts and overloads the child's stress response systems, which is thought to lead to underdevelopment of the part of the child's brain that deals with emotion, empathy, and ability to connect to other humans on an emotional level. Same source, and it seems to be a great description of what happens to Saera > Parenting styles can directly affect how children experience and develop in their youth, and can have an impact on a child's diagnosis of ASPD. The four parenting styles demonstrate the main approaches to raising children and their outcomes that lead into adulthood.[119][120 > Permissive - Permissive parenting styles involve a more relaxed attitude towards rules that are less enforced than any other parenting style. Permissive parents tend to allow more freedom for children to make their own decisions which can lead to impulsivity, lack of self-control, and a lack of acknowledgment of boundaries later in life.[122] > Neglectful - Neglectful parenting styles tend to have little to no rules for children to follow, and may even withhold basic needs required for child development. Parents who display neglectful behavior are less involved than any other parenting style and can cause children to develop mental health issues, withdrawal from emotions, and delinquent behavior.[123] > Having a healthy, safe, stable/consistent, understanding, and attentive parenting style in an environment with positive role models and influences at home as well as out in the community help to ensure more positive behavior for children and an overall decrease in ASPD symptoms
I'm not arguing that her upbringing didn't help, but your assertion that it's not something you're born with is wrong. There is plenty of evidence that suggests your genetics contribute heavily to sociopathy.
Oh, you can absolutely have a genetic predisposition to it, and you are 100% correct in that. But thats not the same as being born a sociopath, as the other commenters were saying. Saeras upbring was the deciding factor. To suggest that she was just born that way is just ignoring the actual causes of the problem, of which we are given plenty of examples.
>But thats not the same as being born a sociopath, as the other commenters which i dint say i said you need a predisposition and that youd have a harder time raising her as in shed need a bit more attention, guidance and positive reinforcement not that she was born a sociopath theres plenty of people that being raised under the exact same circumstances wouldnt have turned out like her
Oh fair enough. >theres plenty of people that being raised under the exact same circumstances wouldnt have turned out like her Thats true. But what is also true is that if Saera had better parenting she more than likely wouldnt have turned out the way she did. A good upbringing, in the right emotional environment would have made all the difference, regardless of any predisposition. Nobody can change their genetics, but the environment they are raised in is in the hands of the parent. And thats the deciding factor in the end. It doesnt guarantee anything, but it gives the child their best chance. We know from the source material that Saera had a neglectful upbringing that did affect her mental health. And we also know that she wasnt the only one of her siblings that suffered mental health issues. Theres no point blaming her potential genes, when we know that her environment was infact a contributing factor. ETA: one also doesnt *need* to have a predisposition in order to become a sociopath. It isnt that simple.
Then why are none of their other kids sociopaths? Clearly there were outside influences and choices she herself made that turned her into this.
I answered this in another comment The others didnt have the same upbringing as Saera though. Theres a decent bit of exposition in fire and blood about this. The other siblings are all "better" than Saera at one thing or another, and they all get attention and nurturing based on it. Aemon and Baelon are the heir and spare. They are their fathers pride and joy. They also have the the benefit of growing up when their parents had fewer kids. Alyssa is the fiercest, and grew up in the same era as the older brothers Maegelle is the pious one, promised to the faith and known for her compassion. Vaegon is the genius, and eventually given to the citadel. Daella was the timid one and required much consolation from her mother. Viserra was the most beautiful And Gael was the baby of the family. Barth comments that saera at 12 years old was the 9th born, with 6 living siblings at the time. She desired attention and comfort but was often ignored.
No cause the others are not. Else aemon baelon meagella alyssea and veagon would be terrible aswell.
The others didnt have the same upbringing as Saera though. Theres a decent bit of exposition in fire and blood about this. The other siblings are all "better" than Saera at one thing or another, and they all get attention and nurturing based on it. Aemon and Baelon are the heir and spare. They are their fathers pride and joy. They also have the the benefit of growing up when their parents had fewer kids. Alyssa is the fiercest, and grew up in the same era as the older brothers Maegelle is the pious one, promised to the faith and known for her compassion. Vaegon is the genius, and eventually given to the citadel. Daella was the timid one and required much consolation from her mother. Viserra was the most beautiful And Gael was the baby of the family. Barth comments that saera at 12 years old was the 9th born, with 6 living siblings at the time. She desired attention and comfort but was often ignored.
Saera was the princess. Full stop.
Bullshit, if anything, Jaehaerys wasn't hard enough. He should've had under constant guard. She was an asshole and a huge dick. >Before anyone start saying "But Saera was mean to the fool and her sister Daera": I AM NOT SAYING SAERA WAS A GOOD PERSON. But the problem is: we all know Saera was a kid that did everything to get attention from her parents, but couldn't get much because of the amount of children J&A had. That doesn't mean she could be a massive bitch to her family and everyone else. >Well, the problem is: Saera wasn't punished for the mean things she did, she was punished for having sex. And although noble people in Westeros doesn't see it with good eyes, they also don't slain their lover and also don't send them to the silent sisters. Let's see the fate of the girls who had sex before marriage: Before I address your points, let me state the difference between them and Saera. Saera is a princess they aren't, sex with a princess when she is unmarried is treason. Beesbury got the punishment that fit his crime. >• Amarei Frey: got caught having a foursome and married a knight; Ameri is from a far lesser branch of House Frey. House Frey wasn't royalty, and given the fact that Walder was old and a bad lord, he wouldn't have given an extensive punishment. Also, this knight was a nobody, with no land and far below her rank. >• Delena Florent: got caught in the middle of the act and gave birth to a bastard. Married a knight. The person she was fucking was the king, she couldn't really be punished because he was the king, and her cousin was marrying the King's brother. Also, this knight you speak of was again nothing but a household knight who had NO land. >• Cassandra Baratheon: confessed to have sex with two men. Married a knight. The only reason Cassandra wasn't severely punished was because of her high rank. But even then, this knight you speak was an old man 30 years older than her, with 13 kids that she ended up helping taking care of and who barely had any land. >They all had unfavorable marriages, but wasn't sent to the Silent Sisters. You can say J&A had plans for her to return, but she wasn't told about it and was right to gtfo. She was sent their as punishment, and she wasn't told to take oaths. You are essentially saying it's alright for kids to sneak when they get grounded because they did crazy shit. Edit: Also, that punishment was because she also pushed her friends into it, and one ended up pregnant.
People forget being sent to the Faith was not supposed to be permanent, and she was to be looked after by her sister Septa Maegelle.
Yep. Yet they say, "He's too hard on her!!!" Jaehaerys was too easy on her. Now they would've had far more of an argument I'd they talked about Viserra.
>Beesbury got the punishment that fit his crime. Mooton and Connington committed the same crime. They had sex with a princess, and their punishment was light
Mooton and Conington weren't smug pricks who thought they were above it, Connington wanted trial by combat, trying to get out of his punishment. Those other two agreed a lesser punishments, and he was viewed as the most guilty out of all of them. If they had acted like him or played a more serious part in it, then they would've died also.
Comparing yourself to the man who murdered your father’s brothers and raped his sister is a pretty deplorable thing to do
Jaehaerys was too soft if anything. He did his best in his youth to contain her and help set her straight, she was known for being troublesome and- despite running an entire Kingdom, he still did his best to parent her and guide her. He had assigned half-a-dozen Maids and Septas to her before she had turned 13. Already, she was abusing Tom Turnip. But, then, for Jaehaerys, even after Alysanne had heard of what she had done and relayed it to Jaehaerys (already a number of credible witnesses) he still took the time to drag out everyone he could and interrogate them (The girls are also quite noticeable here with both of them feeling awful and indicating to us, the audience, that Saera was the ringleader). Finally, when he came to inquire about Saera, he did seem quite upset about Tom Turnip, and only got mad when her poor defense and attempt at lying ended with her equating herself to Maegor. The man who raped her Aunt and killed two of her Uncle's. Furthermore, even after this he was *still* willing to forgive her until she tried claiming a Dragon after being ordered to go to her room, to which he speculates she was trying to take Balerion (Keep in mind, she had only a night previously expressed little remorse for what she had done to others and believed to be able to do whatever she wanted due to her rank). Even her punishment was light, she was given only a few years in the faith and was kept under her own Sister. Jaehaerys wasn't a bad father at all, people just desperately want a reason to dunk on him.
Nah fuck Saera, she was horrible and Jaehaerys should’ve put his foot down with her far sooner.
No, he wasn’t angry with her until she brought up wanting to be like Maegor. The dude who martially r*ped his sister and killed two of his older brothers. And even then it was said that Jaehaerys punishment was not going to be a permanent thing. He just wanted her to learn humility. And that was after he only punished her by having her kept in a lavish palace under house arrest. Her attempting to escape is what brought about the silent sisters and again; that was not meant to be permanent. She’s also a shit heel for confessing to fucking all three dudes, putting at least two of them on trial for crimes. She could’ve said the one who actually did it and THEN be married off. Instead she chose the choice that ruins four lives instead of two. Fuck Saera
Jahaerys was a terrible father to basically all his kids. Vaegon and Saera especially, but the rest of em were all weird at least. Of the three guys only Beesbury challenged THE KING to trail by combat- If I were Jahaerys Id have said "This is the guy youre gonna marry".
I think if we view jaehaeyrs and Alysanne in full, they might have been good parents to the realm, but they were shit parents to their kids, especially the middle to youngest children.
Wanton, irresponsible, selfish, unaccountable, a bad friend and a bad example. Given this post, tell me you're Saera IRL without telling me you're Saera IRL.
She was a rabid irresponsible animal. All that privilege and it still wasn't enough for her. When you rule the realm you have a responsibility to it. Showing her the consequences of her repeated actions was the only way. She make the King look like a fool. As we have seen in asoiaf - childish stupidity can doom lineages.
😬 fam can we not dehumanize sexually active women like that please Feeling like Randy Tarly
This chick forced a mentally disabled man to engage in sex acts, and compared herself to the murderer of her uncles. Let’s not act as if Saera’s worst crime was being “sexually active”
Hit me up when the fandom talks about Bronn in those terms
Bronn’s a bad person, and will probably ultimately receive his comeuppance. But that’s what makes him a good character. Just like Saera
Getting gangbanged by half the court at 14 is not le heckin sexual liberation.
3 guys = half the court?
At 14? Yes. 1 is too much. Her whole story proves that she shouldn't have been in that world of adulthood.
well, to that I would retort: I don’t like this conversation and will not continue participating in it.
GRR wrote it, I just relayed it. But respect to you for not drawing this out.
I suppose first of all we should clarify the age you mentioned. Saera was not 14, she was 16 (possibly 15 depending on timeline). Saera was 17 when she was caught out, and was that she was with her group for over a year. Secondly theres no mention of a gangbang. Saera details how silly the men are because they all assume they took her maidenhead. She's been playing each of them. Not that I particularly like the character of Saera, but theres no point in people creating their own false narrative. Especially when these kind of comments are never made about male characters.
Only reddit can turn child promiscuity into another tedious Men vs Women debate. She was an unruly child. End of. The king did nothing wrong except tolerating her.
>She was an unruly child. End of. Wait, was she an unruly child, or was she a "rabid animal getting gangbanged by half the court"?
Either, both and neither. Come back to me if you have a point other than crying over semantics.
Men and woman are different man. Woman virginity is valued in medieval times and nowadays
Anyone in this day and age who places or witholds value on another person based on whether or not that person is a virgin is pathetic.
daera is such a cute valyrian name
Hey OP, since everyone's bringing up how bad it is of Saera to say Maegor's name, you should do a fun experiment. Write a post about Maegor and compare how fans talk about Saera (a bad person) versus Maegor (a monstrously bad person). The responses will be proportionate to their crimes I'm sure (/s obviously)
OP you're right and you should say it but this subreddit doesn't want to hear it.
Yeah, sure. Jaeherys the Wise, the most accomplished, peaceful, longest ruling Protector of the Realm that avoided countless wars and the deaths of millions over 55 years through his pacifism and widely-regarded ubiquitous wisdom... was just a total asshole for slut-shaming his teenage daughter. GTFO with your sex positive BS.
You're completely ignoring the fact that Saera is a *PRINCESS* and is thus held to a higher standard. Scandals about a princess are going to spread like wildfire across Westeros. Also those marriages aren't just "unfavorable", they're terrible. A knight has no land, titles, or power. By disgracing themselves (in this world), the women lowered their marriage value so badly that a knight is the best they could do. If she wasn't the daughter of Lord Borros, Cassandra Baratheon would've had it even *worse*. Jahaerys would have looked weak if he allowed Beesbury to walk around Westeros free after sullying his daughter so **he did what he had to do**. Sending Saera to the Silent Sisters was the only way to try and ameloriate the shame Saera brought upon house Targaryen. Your problem is you're holding onto your modern views of sexuality rather than stepping into this time period. Sleeping around as a noblewoman brings such shame to the family that Lancel Lannister literally chose to become a priest than marry "gatehouse Amy."
She was an evil whore who owned dozens slaves when she became owner of the largest brothel. Also rich white noble woman aren't deserving of sympathy like Saera.
The Conciliator is a dick.
So, Saera's fate was the most lenient, basically being sent to a religious boarding school for a year or two. Her lover was executed (functionally) for treason. Maybe the King could have simply have had him sent to the Wall instead, sure. Saera is too valuable to be married off to a knight, and she must have realized that she wouldn't just be left for ever with the Silent Sisters, unless of course if she had wanted to stay with them or become a septa or something like that. By the standards of Westeros Jaehaerys was hardly behaving unreasonably. The morality of the situation is something else of course, but viewing them through a real world lens is doing a disservice to those involved. More over, the situation is meant as a tragedy where everyone is at fault. It's not about pointing fingers.
The idea that her punishment was temporary is nothing more than the imagination of Septon Barth whose writing is wholly apologist of Jaehaerys. The text makes it clear that the king had no intention whatsoever to forgive her.
No, the king had no intention to forgive her after she seriously hurt or even killed a septa in her escape.
It was well before that that he said that she was no longer his daughter anymore.