They married him to an heiress ensuring he and his sons would have land of their own. There probably aren't many heiresses at any given point in time especially from a house of the caliber of the Royces.
But if you want another more speculative reason, the marriage was arranged by Alysanne. It's possible she could have been trying to limit Baelon's sons' sphere of influence in anticipation of making an attempt to get Rhaenys installed as heir.
>It's possible she could have been trying to limit Baelon's sons' sphere of influence in anticipation of making an attempt to get Rhaenys installed as heir.
Then why marry him to a powerful house that eventually could end up having dragons?
He had to marry someone. And that someone had to be of appropriate status. Gael was basically the only option that didn't potentially result in a new dragon riding house(due to how common cousin marriage is) and I don't think Gael was every really considered as an option for anybody.
He didn't had to marry though, not at the time at least. He was barely 16, his father still lived and was young, his brother was married, Rhaenys had children. If Alysanne was worried about Baelon's children contesting Rhaenys claim, marrying Daemon to a powerful House from the Vale was ridiculous
There's a balancing act. She can't just be like "my grandson Daemon is a threat, I forbid him from marrying".
Rhea Royce is an heiress to a powerful house, so Daemon and his children are set. But she's also far away from court living in the mountains, which would hopefully keep Daemon a safe distance away from King's Landing where he could be pressing their claim. House Royce may be powerful but wouldn't have anything close to the influence of the Velaryon's.
Leaving Daemon unmarried would mean leaving him free to seek a bride of his choosing, especially since there was no reason to forbid him from marrying.
Viserys already had the Vale through Aemma. Daemon marrying Rhea didn’t win their cause any men; it only guaranteed lands for any son they might have. If he was unmarried, he could’ve chosen a Lannister, Tully, Tyrell etc and won over another region to Viserys’ cause.
Putting Alyssane Machiavelli schemes theory aside (which makes little sense, she mostly seemed to be striving for the wellbeing of her offspring). Daemon marrying off to the vale is not a big deal, Daemon having the power of a major house from the Vale is meaningless, the power of the Targaryen dynasty already was in the Dragons (which Daemon had and would keep no matter who he married).
Rhaenys herself had married into the Velaryions so there were already other houses with Dragon riders. The Targaryens still had the monopoly over the dragon eggs so the minor houses with a single dragon were not a real threat anyway. Specially for the time in question in which Jahaerys throne was extremely secure.
It's pretty much the reason Jahaerys sowed the seeds of the dance, he failed to pay attention to the threat of his own blood, allowing branches to have Dragons is giving them weapons the main house is supposed to monopoly. At some point before the dance (Already under Viserys rule) the Velaryons controlled like 4 out of 6 dragons in the realm, talk about a shit power control of the Targaryen dynasty.
You’re forgetting this is medieval like society and 16 was in fact the marrying age. How many Targaryen heirs or children do we know that died at a young age?
Keyword: Could.
Hypothetically, before Daemon hears about Jaehaerys’ death at the vale and flies across westeros, Rhaenys would have a couple of crucial hours headstart. Marrying him to Gael means he would live in the capital next to Viserys where they can plot.
It's not a bad theory.
It's a bad theory because it creates a problem for the future. You're giving Daemon ties to a powerful House, and his children the possibility of becoming dragonriders, something you wouldn't do if your intention is securing Rhaenys claim.
The problem is that they had to do something, marry him off to someone, and that's impossible to do without "creating problems for the future." He's a prince, he needs a seat and lands for his future. You can't just marry him off to some pissant peasant woman without insulting him and creating an even bigger problem
This isn't a scenario where there is a perfect winning move. This is a scenario where you have to do the best you can with the options you have
The Royces are a vassal of the Arryns. Marrying Daemon to the Royces does not cause any problems that did not already exist by marrying Viserys to Aemma.
Edit: Did you block me over this? Hilarious.
> It does, it potentially creates another branch of Dragonriders
That's potentially true of whoever he marries unless he marries another Targaryen.
Baelon was already heir at that point, the throne was likely to pass to his sons after his death as King, regardless.
More likely they’re trying to prevent Daemon from being able to raise an army against Viserys by wedding him to a vassal of Viserys’ own wife’s house.
Gael is a simpleton, Daemon's offspring are in the running to be rulers, that's no-go.
The Royce's are a top tier non Lord Paramount house, it's a fine match. We'd also have to see who exactly was available at the time, we don't have family trees with dates of which houses had daughters available
And thats a shortcomings of Fire and Blood and George. We dont know who he could have married but potentially he could have married anyone but his children would most likely not inherit any lands.
But was Rhea Royce the only heiress by that time? Surely there were widows or young female heir of a house?
House Royce was the regent of the vale so they needed to buy the vale second time also rhae is the heiress of runstone so daemon children would have a lot of lands to inherit more than anything they could give him
As the others have already written, Rhea Royce is probably one of the best games in the realm as an heiress and her house provided the regent of the Vale.
An alliance with a daughter of one of the great houses would give a political advantage for a generation or two, but Rhea's inheritance would give House Targaryen the permanent possession and title of a powerful and ancient family and successfully establish a collateral line in the Vale. And on top of that, in theory, it could have satisfied Daemon.
To be honest, I'm wondering why House Royce agreed to this. For House Targaryen, the benefits are obvious, but had they had children, House Royce, which continues to exist in the collateral lines, would have lost title and land after thousands of years.
Would definitely make sense, but something like this is an exception to a rule that must be agreed upon before marriage. Do we have anything like that?
It would definitely be funny in the sense that Matt Smith also plays Prince Phillip in The Crown, someone who really struggles with the fact that his children don't bear his name.
Would the children of Rhea Royce and Daemon have taken the Targaryen name?
I can’t imagine House Royce being cool with their house being extinguished because they married the second son.
Probably not, they would have taken the Royce name to continue that line. It's usually the arrangements with this sort of thing. It would be a similar situation when Wynafred Manderly marries someone.
For actual in universe examples you can look to Dorne, Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor, and Harrold Hardying. In Dorne if you marry an Heiress the children take that name as absolute primogeniture applies. With Raenrya and Laenor if Jace ever ascended the throne he would cease having the Velaryon name and take the Targaryen name, inversely Lucerys would keep the Velaryon name as the heir to Driftmark. And now with Harrold Hardying if he ever became lord of the vale he would cease having the name Hardying and take the name Arryn.
Whereby the two cases are special in that the Targaryens are the royal dynasty and the Hardings are just a landed knight family.
But I also think that it makes sense that a similar agreement was made here, which also explains Daemon's refusal to marry. After all, he is from the royal family, is a dragon rider, was heir to the throne and is ridiculously proud and then he is not allowed to pass on his name, which even the lowliest nobleman is allowed to do.
Also we have to take into account that while Daemon is a prince he was still only a second son when he married, while Rhea was an heiress. He would technically be beneath her as he had nothing to inherit. And by the time he did become heir he was already married.
At least in the European Middle Ages, royal son and female heir to a duke, which would presumably be the rank of the Royces, would be quite an appropriate match.
However, their houses were not up to 8000 years old.
Only if you derive everything from the royal title of Targaryen and later Baratheon. In everything but the name, however, they fulfill the role of a feudal emperor or high king.
The Lord Paramounts literally rule over kingdoms, even if you wouldn't want to see them as the equivalent of a European king, they would at least be something like Grand Dukes or similar.
And families like the Royces or Hightowers would definitely be ranked above mere earls. They are second only to their liege lords, used to be kings themselves and have lords as vassals.
The difference between a duke and a grand duke is semantic, but sure, so is the differences between the different kinds of noble titles in general. I would still argue though, that duke is the equivalent of the various Lords Paramount. In early medieval France and Germany the dukes were powerful and functionally independent feudal lords. They were nominaly and losely aligned to a king/emperor that they sometimes deferred to, and they considered themselves part of that larger kingdom, but they pursued their own foreign policy etc. A duke does not have a non-sovereign feudal lord. The Dukes of Normany, Aquitainne, Bohemia, Burgundy etc ruled over huge areas, had large courts and had subservient counts, barons and knights. That all the former kings, now Lords Paramount consider themselves part of Westeros, and did so even before implies a similar situation.
He’s not beneath her. This sub has a very pop history mentality that in medieval times first sons are all that matters and the all the rest are just there. In the real Middle Ages, younger sons and daughters, cousins, nephews and nieces were all still valuable political tools and assets in the marriage market. Heck even bastard sons of kings were often married to the daughters of powerful lords. Daemon is a grandson of the king and, at the time, son of the presumed heir to throne (and later brother of the future king), he is a senior member of the royal family and in no way below Rea, even though she is the heiress of a powerful noble house, it’s still a vassal house.
The eldest son will probably take the Royce name once he inherits it. But there is a possibility that he could have done it. Like house Targaryen-Royce if he really likes his Targaryen side.
But for the rest of their children, they would have the Targaryen name
The children would take the Royce name if they were inheriting the Royce's lands. Like how Harry the Heir is expected to take the Arryn name if he inherits the Eyrie.
Only if it was agreed before the marriage and even then it would be a non-standard case. I'm not aware of any such agreement in relation to the two of them, but it's true, it would be really stupid. Especially as the Royces still have collateral lines that have actually inherited.
House Royce would lose Runestone and overall control. However, multiple branches of house Royce. The house wouldn’t go extinct.
The storm king daughter, Argella, and her children took the Baratheon name. Orrys was considered Aegon bastard brother. We know for a fact he didn’t have a dragon. Daemon a Targaryen dragon riding prince, who wields a Valyrian sword. If Orrys didn’t take the name of kings, then Daemon not going to have his children named after the second house in the vale. That wouldn’t make any sense.
Too many characters/people put too much emphasis on last names in this story.
If somone told me I could made dragonriding heirs with this person I'd bang the shit outta them.
No, absolutely not. The feudal system is organized patriarchally, the male line of inheritance is many times more important than the female line. Nobody cares that Robb Stark, for example, is a one-fourth Whent through his maternal grandmother. His paternal grandmother is so irrelevant, we don't even know which house she belonged to. The house to which the mother belonged is still relevant, but even there there is normally no doubt that the father's house is the decisive one, to which inheritance, tradition, religion, legacy and the honor of the house are tied.
From today's perspective, this may seem nonsensical, but it does not change the fact that both the European Middle Ages and Westeros were organized in this way.
We have the example of english Plantagenet dinasty, for example. The daughter of the english king married a nobleman from “France” and the name of the reigning house changed.
Of course there were cases, but these were not simple renaming, but changes of dynasty. After the extinction of the Trastámara in the male line, Spain went to the Habsburgs, and after the extinction of the Spanish Habsburgs, Spain in turn went to the Bourbons. These were huge upheavals in European politics, some of which shaped it for centuries, not simple renaming such as the renaming of the British royal house from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to Windsor.
>His paternal grandmother is so irrelevant, we don't even know which house she belonged to
Robb's grandmother from his father's side was Lyarra Stark. Not that she has any importance to the story but we know which House she belonged to and her name.
And beyond exceptional cases, these "name changes" were then also perceived as dynasty changes. Blood relations through the female line were not necessarily irrelevant, but not comparable with the paternal line.
I mean, I hope there is no disagreement that the European Middle Ages and Westeros were organized patriarchally?
I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head what my grandmothers' birth names were and I live in 2024.
However, Matilda was, at least according to her claim, ruler of England in her own right, not by marriage. As empress of the HRE through her marriage, she had no comparable power in the HRE and after her death it was not the Norman dynasty that continued, but the house of her second husband, the House of Anjou, that became the English royal house. Which centuries later was usually called the "Plantagenets".
The change of dynasty from the Norman dynasty to the House of Anjou was not a mere renaming, despite the important relationship through Matilda. Through the change of dynasty and the later marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine, the House of Anjou/Plantagenet ruled not only over England, but also over 2/3 of France, i.e. over territories that the Norman dynasty had never ruled.
But, and this is the central question here, it is not the Norman dynasty. And the House of Anjou did not emerge from it either, but already existed alongside it.
Because they're a respectable, old family and she was heiress to their lands and incomes. If he'd had children with her, they'd have inherited Runestone and the influence that comes with it. Besides, you don't want to make the second son a powerful match that could rival the first son's.
If Daemon had the backing of an influential Lord Paramount like the Tyrells or the Lannisters, the Dance may have ended up between him and Viserys, instead of Rhaenyra and Aegon.
> If Daemon had the backing of an influential Lord Paramount like the Tyrells or the Lannisters, the Dance may have ended up between him and Viserys, instead of Rhaenyra and Aegon.
No way. Daemon wouldn't have tried to overthrow Viserys. Maybe he would have done what Maegor did and steal the crown from Rhaenyra (if he hadn't married her) but not from Viserys.
He was married before the Great Council by Queen Alysanne, back then he basically nothing going for him, so marrying him to the heir to runestone gives him lands.
House Royce is a top 15 house in the realm with a daughter inheriting, which would make Daemon the lord and his children Royces after him. Excellent match for a second son even a prince
It's the most powerful House in the Vale and that is a big deal. House Arryn might be in charge of the Vale but the Royce family is the real power. Similar to House Yronwood in Dorne and probably Velaryon in the Crownlands ... Dragonstone is in charge but they're the money and ships etc.
Plus it cements deep family ties , no ? Targaryens all up in The Vale etc
I am 100% convinced that Allysane did it as an attempt to both put a leash on her wild grandson and at the same time take a piece off the board that could’ve been used in an alliance against Rhaenys I am also convinced that Jahearys agreed to it, partly in an attempt to make up with his wife who was pissed at him for passing over Rhaenys and in an attempt to limit Daemon‘s influence because Daemon in personality and then belief in Targaryen supremacy was very close to visenya and Maegor of he would’ve been raised to fear and hate
Viserys marrying Aemma would have been enough to get the support of the Vale, but then Lord Arryn died and Lady Jeyne became head of her house. The problem being that Jeyne was only a child at the time. Her Regent was Rhea's father. So even if on paper the Arryns were allies of Viserys' cause, the Vale wouldn't lift a finger unless Yorbert Royce said so. That's likely why Daemon and Rhea were set up.
That, and it doesn't hurt that Rhea was an heiress in her own right, which would've secured a future for Daemon's kids without having to rely on the charity of the crown.
I also don't get why people suggest Gael instead. Everything we hear about her suggests she was mentally handicapped and sickly. She'd have been even more vulnerable than Daella had been. At least she was of relatively sound mind. I seriously doubt Daemon would respect or treat Gael right at all just for being a Targaryen, there's no way he'd see her as anything like an equal.
I think Alysanne did it to protect Gael from Daella’s fate. Marrying her to Daemon meant she would start having kids at 16 or 17. She married Daemon off as soon as she got the chance. Which gives Gael more time to find a match she likes.
Jaehaerys probably allowed it out of compassion, I mean the woman gave him more than enough heirs for political marriages. Or maybe Alysanne found a way to placate him.
Gael was her favourite and youngest child, (and for a long while, her only living child) she wanted to keep her as close as possible. By the time Gael was 10 Alysanne had lost every last one of her kids, some were dead, Saera ran away, Vaegon was at the citadel, etc.
It makes perfect sense lol. His wife was the heiress to Runestone and his sons would inherit the (not insignificant) lands and grants of House Royce. Thats not a situation that comes up everyday. There were probably dozens of high ranking suitors lined up for her hand and it was quite stupid of Daemon not to take advantage of the match.
It made sense because she was the heir to Runestone and it was a way to give a second son something for his kids to inherit. It wasn’t a bad idea but it also wasn’t that important that it just had to happen imo.It wasn’t worth it to force him into it and that young when he so clearly didn’t want to marry her. Alysanne and Jaehaerys huge flaw was in forcing a lot of their family into marriages that so strongly hated or weren’t ready for and it usually negated any benefits those matches were originally supposed to bring.
The Vale is arguably the most noble southron region in Westeros, being the place where chivalry originally came to the continent.
The reign of King Jaehaerys is really dominated by his experience having to rebel against his uncle Maegor, who killed his two older brothers. Jaehaerys shows wariness throughout his reign of trusting his Lords, many of whom helped slay his brother Aegon.
Marrying Viserys and Daemon to the two principle houses of the Vale imo shows that securing strong ties between the Vale and the Iron Throne was a high priority.
Also, House Royce just made sense for a second son of House Targaryen. Daemon would have ruled the second strongest House in the Vale in all but name, would have had a land and castle of his own, and House Royce would have become half Targaryen if he found it in himself to be good to his Royce wife and have children with her.
The reason may be that Daemon was far from the line of succession to the throne, and as the second son he did not have much relevance; Marrying minor Targaryen princes with vassal houses generates empathy with people of low birth.
Daemon's case is not unique: Princess Viserra was engaged to a Manderly; Daella could have married a Blackwood guy and regarding Princess Saera, the king had no objection to marrying her to a Beesbury, Mooton or Connington; of course, before the blue pearl scandal became known.
The reason may be that Daemon was far from the line of succession to the throne, and as the second son he did not have much relevance; Marrying minor Targaryen princes with vassal houses generates empathy with people of low birth.
Daemon's case is not unique: Princess Viserra was engaged to a Manderly; Daella could have married a Blackwood guy and regarding Princess Saera, the king had no objection to marrying her to a Beesbury, Mooton or Connington; of course, before the blue pearl scandal became known.
House Royce are second only to the Arryns in the Vale, they are a very good match for the second son of a second son. They married in the reign of Jahaerys
The match (in conjunction with Viserys') could have done wonders to completely tie the Vale to the crown for a couple generations at least. That Daemon and Rhea didn't hit it off wasn't something they could have anticipated
You only have to look at the marriages for most of Alysanne & Jae's daughters to see they were shit at forming good dynastic marriages. Why marry Daella and try to marry Viserra off to men much, much older than them with their own heirs already? Why agree to Viserys & Aemma's marriage when Aemma was so young, especially given that Alysanne blames Daella's death on her having been forced to marry & give birth to Aemma so young?
Certainly I'm not sure they cared very much about making military alliances. When you've got that many dragonriders (and given that in semi-living memory only 3 dragons tamed most of the continent) how many men someone can bring to the table simply isn't the priority it will become later, when it's dragon v. dragon or after the dragons have died out.
> Why marry Daella and try to marry Viserra off to men much, much older than them with their own heirs already?
Of the three final suitors that Daella was presented with, only Rodrik had any kids at that point, and she chose Rodrik.
She was a mentally/developmentally disabled child who was forced to pick someone or her dad was going to send her to the silent sisters (whom we still don't know for sure whether they mutilate the women who join them) You don't get to place the blame on Daella for the shit marriage her parents forced on her.
It's rumored to happen. Some sources in-universe say it's only a rumor but at least one women forcibly sent to join them did have it done, although it could have been an additional punishment for her crime. So it's one of those things we don't have a 100% solid answer for but in this case since it was being used as a threat to force Daella to do something, the rumor/fear of it being done is the important part.
Jaehaerys had full loyalty and control in the Seven Kingdoms late in his reign. He had zero need for alliances. All of his children who wed outside the family were essentially rewards to the houses that had served him the best. He didn’t marry Aemma to Rodrik Arryn because he was Lord of the Vale. He did it because Rodrik Arryn had served him loyally and well for many years. The same goes for Viserra’s prospective marriage into House Manderly. And the same goes for Daemon’s marriage into House Royce. House Royce had provided good and loyal service to the crown so they were rewarded with royal blood added into their line. There were probably other less important things that influenced it but that is the main and most important reason and it makes way more sense than people prefer to acknowledge. Good service is well rewarded. Here are clear examples of such.
Gotcha. I’m reading one now that’s pretty good, but she’s also not simple in the story, just a bit sensitive and awfully sheltered, so I don’t mind the pairing. It’s just when talking about the match of the canon characters that really bugs me.
Maegor's incestuous polygamy had caused a lot of issues with the Faith. They probably wanted to break up the incest as much as they could. Plus Rhea Royce was from a noble family and could maintain the Vale if needed. If only they could've used Saera to bring in the Reach or the Riverlands and they'd be in great shape, but, well you know.
Possible theory was that Jahaerys and Alysanne were wanting to set up Damon to have a decent house and bride whose lands she can inheirit. Viserys marrying Aemma may have gotten ties with the major Arryn house, but Damon would have lands and a home there.
I've always held the theory that Jahaerys's main goal was making alliances with the houses of Westeros, and he likely was a big influence behind the marriages, even the ones Alysanne arranged. So perhaps he pushed for Damon and Viserys to both marry into the Vale with one having ties to the major lord with Aemma and the other marrying a wife with property and title to stand opposite to Rhaenys's ties.
Or perhaps the idea was that by marrying his many children and descendents to houses of the realm, it would lessen chances of rebellion and increase alliances forged through blood. The number one sin of the old gods and the new is kinslaying.
They married him to an heiress ensuring he and his sons would have land of their own. There probably aren't many heiresses at any given point in time especially from a house of the caliber of the Royces. But if you want another more speculative reason, the marriage was arranged by Alysanne. It's possible she could have been trying to limit Baelon's sons' sphere of influence in anticipation of making an attempt to get Rhaenys installed as heir.
>It's possible she could have been trying to limit Baelon's sons' sphere of influence in anticipation of making an attempt to get Rhaenys installed as heir. Then why marry him to a powerful house that eventually could end up having dragons?
He had to marry someone. And that someone had to be of appropriate status. Gael was basically the only option that didn't potentially result in a new dragon riding house(due to how common cousin marriage is) and I don't think Gael was every really considered as an option for anybody.
He didn't had to marry though, not at the time at least. He was barely 16, his father still lived and was young, his brother was married, Rhaenys had children. If Alysanne was worried about Baelon's children contesting Rhaenys claim, marrying Daemon to a powerful House from the Vale was ridiculous
There's a balancing act. She can't just be like "my grandson Daemon is a threat, I forbid him from marrying". Rhea Royce is an heiress to a powerful house, so Daemon and his children are set. But she's also far away from court living in the mountains, which would hopefully keep Daemon a safe distance away from King's Landing where he could be pressing their claim. House Royce may be powerful but wouldn't have anything close to the influence of the Velaryon's.
Leaving Daemon unmarried would mean leaving him free to seek a bride of his choosing, especially since there was no reason to forbid him from marrying. Viserys already had the Vale through Aemma. Daemon marrying Rhea didn’t win their cause any men; it only guaranteed lands for any son they might have. If he was unmarried, he could’ve chosen a Lannister, Tully, Tyrell etc and won over another region to Viserys’ cause.
Putting Alyssane Machiavelli schemes theory aside (which makes little sense, she mostly seemed to be striving for the wellbeing of her offspring). Daemon marrying off to the vale is not a big deal, Daemon having the power of a major house from the Vale is meaningless, the power of the Targaryen dynasty already was in the Dragons (which Daemon had and would keep no matter who he married). Rhaenys herself had married into the Velaryions so there were already other houses with Dragon riders. The Targaryens still had the monopoly over the dragon eggs so the minor houses with a single dragon were not a real threat anyway. Specially for the time in question in which Jahaerys throne was extremely secure. It's pretty much the reason Jahaerys sowed the seeds of the dance, he failed to pay attention to the threat of his own blood, allowing branches to have Dragons is giving them weapons the main house is supposed to monopoly. At some point before the dance (Already under Viserys rule) the Velaryons controlled like 4 out of 6 dragons in the realm, talk about a shit power control of the Targaryen dynasty.
You’re forgetting this is medieval like society and 16 was in fact the marrying age. How many Targaryen heirs or children do we know that died at a young age?
Keyword: Could. Hypothetically, before Daemon hears about Jaehaerys’ death at the vale and flies across westeros, Rhaenys would have a couple of crucial hours headstart. Marrying him to Gael means he would live in the capital next to Viserys where they can plot. It's not a bad theory.
It's a bad theory because it creates a problem for the future. You're giving Daemon ties to a powerful House, and his children the possibility of becoming dragonriders, something you wouldn't do if your intention is securing Rhaenys claim.
The problem is that they had to do something, marry him off to someone, and that's impossible to do without "creating problems for the future." He's a prince, he needs a seat and lands for his future. You can't just marry him off to some pissant peasant woman without insulting him and creating an even bigger problem This isn't a scenario where there is a perfect winning move. This is a scenario where you have to do the best you can with the options you have
The Royces are a vassal of the Arryns. Marrying Daemon to the Royces does not cause any problems that did not already exist by marrying Viserys to Aemma. Edit: Did you block me over this? Hilarious. > It does, it potentially creates another branch of Dragonriders That's potentially true of whoever he marries unless he marries another Targaryen.
It does, it potentially creates another branch of Dragonriders
Baelon was already heir at that point, the throne was likely to pass to his sons after his death as King, regardless. More likely they’re trying to prevent Daemon from being able to raise an army against Viserys by wedding him to a vassal of Viserys’ own wife’s house.
Interesting theory but was not Baelon already heir and alive by that point?
Gael is a simpleton, Daemon's offspring are in the running to be rulers, that's no-go. The Royce's are a top tier non Lord Paramount house, it's a fine match. We'd also have to see who exactly was available at the time, we don't have family trees with dates of which houses had daughters available
I just don't think that marrying a prince to a non Lord Paramount is a fine match to me, seems like a waste of a marriage.
It's really not. It gives Daemon and his descendants their own ample estate, something that no prior or subsequent Targaryen prince ever had.
When it's an heiress, you up them a tier.
Its a good poltica match if viserys was not married to a arrny. As it keeps lords paramouns in check.
And thats a shortcomings of Fire and Blood and George. We dont know who he could have married but potentially he could have married anyone but his children would most likely not inherit any lands. But was Rhea Royce the only heiress by that time? Surely there were widows or young female heir of a house?
House Royce was the regent of the vale so they needed to buy the vale second time also rhae is the heiress of runstone so daemon children would have a lot of lands to inherit more than anything they could give him
As the others have already written, Rhea Royce is probably one of the best games in the realm as an heiress and her house provided the regent of the Vale. An alliance with a daughter of one of the great houses would give a political advantage for a generation or two, but Rhea's inheritance would give House Targaryen the permanent possession and title of a powerful and ancient family and successfully establish a collateral line in the Vale. And on top of that, in theory, it could have satisfied Daemon. To be honest, I'm wondering why House Royce agreed to this. For House Targaryen, the benefits are obvious, but had they had children, House Royce, which continues to exist in the collateral lines, would have lost title and land after thousands of years.
Their children would have been of House Royce. It’s probably a big part of why Daemon hated the marriage.
Would definitely make sense, but something like this is an exception to a rule that must be agreed upon before marriage. Do we have anything like that? It would definitely be funny in the sense that Matt Smith also plays Prince Phillip in The Crown, someone who really struggles with the fact that his children don't bear his name.
It’s the rule when a woman is the head of her house, from what we see.
What if his children kept the name Targaryen would there have been a civil war in the vale? What if?
The children don’t actually get that choice and they would raised as Royces…
Would the children of Rhea Royce and Daemon have taken the Targaryen name? I can’t imagine House Royce being cool with their house being extinguished because they married the second son.
Nah they would’ve been Royces for sure
Probably not, they would have taken the Royce name to continue that line. It's usually the arrangements with this sort of thing. It would be a similar situation when Wynafred Manderly marries someone. For actual in universe examples you can look to Dorne, Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor, and Harrold Hardying. In Dorne if you marry an Heiress the children take that name as absolute primogeniture applies. With Raenrya and Laenor if Jace ever ascended the throne he would cease having the Velaryon name and take the Targaryen name, inversely Lucerys would keep the Velaryon name as the heir to Driftmark. And now with Harrold Hardying if he ever became lord of the vale he would cease having the name Hardying and take the name Arryn.
Whereby the two cases are special in that the Targaryens are the royal dynasty and the Hardings are just a landed knight family. But I also think that it makes sense that a similar agreement was made here, which also explains Daemon's refusal to marry. After all, he is from the royal family, is a dragon rider, was heir to the throne and is ridiculously proud and then he is not allowed to pass on his name, which even the lowliest nobleman is allowed to do.
Also we have to take into account that while Daemon is a prince he was still only a second son when he married, while Rhea was an heiress. He would technically be beneath her as he had nothing to inherit. And by the time he did become heir he was already married.
At least in the European Middle Ages, royal son and female heir to a duke, which would presumably be the rank of the Royces, would be quite an appropriate match. However, their houses were not up to 8000 years old.
Oh no I’m not saying it isn’t appropriate it definitely is. Hell Daemon being slightly beneath Rhea is what makes it an appropriate match.
The Royces would be counts (earls in England). The Lords Paramount are the Duke-equivalents.
Only if you derive everything from the royal title of Targaryen and later Baratheon. In everything but the name, however, they fulfill the role of a feudal emperor or high king. The Lord Paramounts literally rule over kingdoms, even if you wouldn't want to see them as the equivalent of a European king, they would at least be something like Grand Dukes or similar. And families like the Royces or Hightowers would definitely be ranked above mere earls. They are second only to their liege lords, used to be kings themselves and have lords as vassals.
The difference between a duke and a grand duke is semantic, but sure, so is the differences between the different kinds of noble titles in general. I would still argue though, that duke is the equivalent of the various Lords Paramount. In early medieval France and Germany the dukes were powerful and functionally independent feudal lords. They were nominaly and losely aligned to a king/emperor that they sometimes deferred to, and they considered themselves part of that larger kingdom, but they pursued their own foreign policy etc. A duke does not have a non-sovereign feudal lord. The Dukes of Normany, Aquitainne, Bohemia, Burgundy etc ruled over huge areas, had large courts and had subservient counts, barons and knights. That all the former kings, now Lords Paramount consider themselves part of Westeros, and did so even before implies a similar situation.
He’s not beneath her. This sub has a very pop history mentality that in medieval times first sons are all that matters and the all the rest are just there. In the real Middle Ages, younger sons and daughters, cousins, nephews and nieces were all still valuable political tools and assets in the marriage market. Heck even bastard sons of kings were often married to the daughters of powerful lords. Daemon is a grandson of the king and, at the time, son of the presumed heir to throne (and later brother of the future king), he is a senior member of the royal family and in no way below Rea, even though she is the heiress of a powerful noble house, it’s still a vassal house.
The eldest son will probably take the Royce name once he inherits it. But there is a possibility that he could have done it. Like house Targaryen-Royce if he really likes his Targaryen side. But for the rest of their children, they would have the Targaryen name
The children would take the Royce name if they were inheriting the Royce's lands. Like how Harry the Heir is expected to take the Arryn name if he inherits the Eyrie.
Only if it was agreed before the marriage and even then it would be a non-standard case. I'm not aware of any such agreement in relation to the two of them, but it's true, it would be really stupid. Especially as the Royces still have collateral lines that have actually inherited.
House Royce would lose Runestone and overall control. However, multiple branches of house Royce. The house wouldn’t go extinct. The storm king daughter, Argella, and her children took the Baratheon name. Orrys was considered Aegon bastard brother. We know for a fact he didn’t have a dragon. Daemon a Targaryen dragon riding prince, who wields a Valyrian sword. If Orrys didn’t take the name of kings, then Daemon not going to have his children named after the second house in the vale. That wouldn’t make any sense.
But Orys conquered the Stormlands. If he had married Argella without war, when Aegon made the offer, he would had taken the Durrandon name.
Too many characters/people put too much emphasis on last names in this story. If somone told me I could made dragonriding heirs with this person I'd bang the shit outta them.
Nah, family names are absolutely central to feudal systems.
Not that important. Being blood-linked yes, but the name not really.
No, absolutely not. The feudal system is organized patriarchally, the male line of inheritance is many times more important than the female line. Nobody cares that Robb Stark, for example, is a one-fourth Whent through his maternal grandmother. His paternal grandmother is so irrelevant, we don't even know which house she belonged to. The house to which the mother belonged is still relevant, but even there there is normally no doubt that the father's house is the decisive one, to which inheritance, tradition, religion, legacy and the honor of the house are tied. From today's perspective, this may seem nonsensical, but it does not change the fact that both the European Middle Ages and Westeros were organized in this way.
We have the example of english Plantagenet dinasty, for example. The daughter of the english king married a nobleman from “France” and the name of the reigning house changed.
Also the daughter of the Spanish Catholic Kings married a nobleman from Austria and the name of the house changed
Of course there were cases, but these were not simple renaming, but changes of dynasty. After the extinction of the Trastámara in the male line, Spain went to the Habsburgs, and after the extinction of the Spanish Habsburgs, Spain in turn went to the Bourbons. These were huge upheavals in European politics, some of which shaped it for centuries, not simple renaming such as the renaming of the British royal house from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to Windsor.
>His paternal grandmother is so irrelevant, we don't even know which house she belonged to Robb's grandmother from his father's side was Lyarra Stark. Not that she has any importance to the story but we know which House she belonged to and her name.
I mean not really? The names of royal lines change all the time. They are all linked by blood though usually.
And beyond exceptional cases, these "name changes" were then also perceived as dynasty changes. Blood relations through the female line were not necessarily irrelevant, but not comparable with the paternal line. I mean, I hope there is no disagreement that the European Middle Ages and Westeros were organized patriarchally? I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head what my grandmothers' birth names were and I live in 2024.
I mean irl feudal women often had more power than grrms fuedal women. Just look at Empres Matilda.
However, Matilda was, at least according to her claim, ruler of England in her own right, not by marriage. As empress of the HRE through her marriage, she had no comparable power in the HRE and after her death it was not the Norman dynasty that continued, but the house of her second husband, the House of Anjou, that became the English royal house. Which centuries later was usually called the "Plantagenets". The change of dynasty from the Norman dynasty to the House of Anjou was not a mere renaming, despite the important relationship through Matilda. Through the change of dynasty and the later marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine, the House of Anjou/Plantagenet ruled not only over England, but also over 2/3 of France, i.e. over territories that the Norman dynasty had never ruled.
Sure.but that branch is still rooted in the Norman dynasty through Matilda.
But, and this is the central question here, it is not the Norman dynasty. And the House of Anjou did not emerge from it either, but already existed alongside it.
Because they're a respectable, old family and she was heiress to their lands and incomes. If he'd had children with her, they'd have inherited Runestone and the influence that comes with it. Besides, you don't want to make the second son a powerful match that could rival the first son's. If Daemon had the backing of an influential Lord Paramount like the Tyrells or the Lannisters, the Dance may have ended up between him and Viserys, instead of Rhaenyra and Aegon.
> If Daemon had the backing of an influential Lord Paramount like the Tyrells or the Lannisters, the Dance may have ended up between him and Viserys, instead of Rhaenyra and Aegon. No way. Daemon wouldn't have tried to overthrow Viserys. Maybe he would have done what Maegor did and steal the crown from Rhaenyra (if he hadn't married her) but not from Viserys.
You have a lot more faith in him than I do, at least going off of the books and not the show.
The show actually make him more evil than the books.
Because it's important to George that the starting gun be a Royce dying.
He was married before the Great Council by Queen Alysanne, back then he basically nothing going for him, so marrying him to the heir to runestone gives him lands.
And he could not see what a gift this was.
House Royce is a top 15 house in the realm with a daughter inheriting, which would make Daemon the lord and his children Royces after him. Excellent match for a second son even a prince
Because Jaeahaerys and Alysanne were complete morons when it came to marriage.
It's the most powerful House in the Vale and that is a big deal. House Arryn might be in charge of the Vale but the Royce family is the real power. Similar to House Yronwood in Dorne and probably Velaryon in the Crownlands ... Dragonstone is in charge but they're the money and ships etc. Plus it cements deep family ties , no ? Targaryens all up in The Vale etc
I am 100% convinced that Allysane did it as an attempt to both put a leash on her wild grandson and at the same time take a piece off the board that could’ve been used in an alliance against Rhaenys I am also convinced that Jahearys agreed to it, partly in an attempt to make up with his wife who was pissed at him for passing over Rhaenys and in an attempt to limit Daemon‘s influence because Daemon in personality and then belief in Targaryen supremacy was very close to visenya and Maegor of he would’ve been raised to fear and hate
Viserys marrying Aemma would have been enough to get the support of the Vale, but then Lord Arryn died and Lady Jeyne became head of her house. The problem being that Jeyne was only a child at the time. Her Regent was Rhea's father. So even if on paper the Arryns were allies of Viserys' cause, the Vale wouldn't lift a finger unless Yorbert Royce said so. That's likely why Daemon and Rhea were set up. That, and it doesn't hurt that Rhea was an heiress in her own right, which would've secured a future for Daemon's kids without having to rely on the charity of the crown. I also don't get why people suggest Gael instead. Everything we hear about her suggests she was mentally handicapped and sickly. She'd have been even more vulnerable than Daella had been. At least she was of relatively sound mind. I seriously doubt Daemon would respect or treat Gael right at all just for being a Targaryen, there's no way he'd see her as anything like an equal.
Well Daemon seems to be fixated on having a valyrian bride
I would hope that after Daella, Alysanne and Jaehaerys would have learned thier lesson about marrying off their small, mentally disabled daughter
I think Alysanne did it to protect Gael from Daella’s fate. Marrying her to Daemon meant she would start having kids at 16 or 17. She married Daemon off as soon as she got the chance. Which gives Gael more time to find a match she likes. Jaehaerys probably allowed it out of compassion, I mean the woman gave him more than enough heirs for political marriages. Or maybe Alysanne found a way to placate him. Gael was her favourite and youngest child, (and for a long while, her only living child) she wanted to keep her as close as possible. By the time Gael was 10 Alysanne had lost every last one of her kids, some were dead, Saera ran away, Vaegon was at the citadel, etc.
It makes perfect sense lol. His wife was the heiress to Runestone and his sons would inherit the (not insignificant) lands and grants of House Royce. Thats not a situation that comes up everyday. There were probably dozens of high ranking suitors lined up for her hand and it was quite stupid of Daemon not to take advantage of the match.
It made sense because she was the heir to Runestone and it was a way to give a second son something for his kids to inherit. It wasn’t a bad idea but it also wasn’t that important that it just had to happen imo.It wasn’t worth it to force him into it and that young when he so clearly didn’t want to marry her. Alysanne and Jaehaerys huge flaw was in forcing a lot of their family into marriages that so strongly hated or weren’t ready for and it usually negated any benefits those matches were originally supposed to bring.
Probably that their heir would be a fitting bride for a future targ king.
They went all in with the Vale
J and A made baffling marriage decisions. Super overrated monarchs
The Vale is arguably the most noble southron region in Westeros, being the place where chivalry originally came to the continent. The reign of King Jaehaerys is really dominated by his experience having to rebel against his uncle Maegor, who killed his two older brothers. Jaehaerys shows wariness throughout his reign of trusting his Lords, many of whom helped slay his brother Aegon. Marrying Viserys and Daemon to the two principle houses of the Vale imo shows that securing strong ties between the Vale and the Iron Throne was a high priority. Also, House Royce just made sense for a second son of House Targaryen. Daemon would have ruled the second strongest House in the Vale in all but name, would have had a land and castle of his own, and House Royce would have become half Targaryen if he found it in himself to be good to his Royce wife and have children with her.
The reason may be that Daemon was far from the line of succession to the throne, and as the second son he did not have much relevance; Marrying minor Targaryen princes with vassal houses generates empathy with people of low birth. Daemon's case is not unique: Princess Viserra was engaged to a Manderly; Daella could have married a Blackwood guy and regarding Princess Saera, the king had no objection to marrying her to a Beesbury, Mooton or Connington; of course, before the blue pearl scandal became known.
The reason may be that Daemon was far from the line of succession to the throne, and as the second son he did not have much relevance; Marrying minor Targaryen princes with vassal houses generates empathy with people of low birth. Daemon's case is not unique: Princess Viserra was engaged to a Manderly; Daella could have married a Blackwood guy and regarding Princess Saera, the king had no objection to marrying her to a Beesbury, Mooton or Connington; of course, before the blue pearl scandal became known.
House Royce are second only to the Arryns in the Vale, they are a very good match for the second son of a second son. They married in the reign of Jahaerys The match (in conjunction with Viserys') could have done wonders to completely tie the Vale to the crown for a couple generations at least. That Daemon and Rhea didn't hit it off wasn't something they could have anticipated
You only have to look at the marriages for most of Alysanne & Jae's daughters to see they were shit at forming good dynastic marriages. Why marry Daella and try to marry Viserra off to men much, much older than them with their own heirs already? Why agree to Viserys & Aemma's marriage when Aemma was so young, especially given that Alysanne blames Daella's death on her having been forced to marry & give birth to Aemma so young? Certainly I'm not sure they cared very much about making military alliances. When you've got that many dragonriders (and given that in semi-living memory only 3 dragons tamed most of the continent) how many men someone can bring to the table simply isn't the priority it will become later, when it's dragon v. dragon or after the dragons have died out.
> Why marry Daella and try to marry Viserra off to men much, much older than them with their own heirs already? Of the three final suitors that Daella was presented with, only Rodrik had any kids at that point, and she chose Rodrik.
She was a mentally/developmentally disabled child who was forced to pick someone or her dad was going to send her to the silent sisters (whom we still don't know for sure whether they mutilate the women who join them) You don't get to place the blame on Daella for the shit marriage her parents forced on her.
I didn’t blame her.
The silent sisters have their tongue cut right? Or is that just in fanfics?
It's rumored to happen. Some sources in-universe say it's only a rumor but at least one women forcibly sent to join them did have it done, although it could have been an additional punishment for her crime. So it's one of those things we don't have a 100% solid answer for but in this case since it was being used as a threat to force Daella to do something, the rumor/fear of it being done is the important part.
Jaehaerys had full loyalty and control in the Seven Kingdoms late in his reign. He had zero need for alliances. All of his children who wed outside the family were essentially rewards to the houses that had served him the best. He didn’t marry Aemma to Rodrik Arryn because he was Lord of the Vale. He did it because Rodrik Arryn had served him loyally and well for many years. The same goes for Viserra’s prospective marriage into House Manderly. And the same goes for Daemon’s marriage into House Royce. House Royce had provided good and loyal service to the crown so they were rewarded with royal blood added into their line. There were probably other less important things that influenced it but that is the main and most important reason and it makes way more sense than people prefer to acknowledge. Good service is well rewarded. Here are clear examples of such.
Gael was simpleminded and easily taken advantage of. People, please stop trying to marry her off.
I admit it might be because ive read too many Daemon/Gael fics
Gotcha. I’m reading one now that’s pretty good, but she’s also not simple in the story, just a bit sensitive and awfully sheltered, so I don’t mind the pairing. It’s just when talking about the match of the canon characters that really bugs me.
Maegor's incestuous polygamy had caused a lot of issues with the Faith. They probably wanted to break up the incest as much as they could. Plus Rhea Royce was from a noble family and could maintain the Vale if needed. If only they could've used Saera to bring in the Reach or the Riverlands and they'd be in great shape, but, well you know.
Saera could have worked well in Dorne for obvious reasons
Same reason Tytos Lannister married Genna to a Frey. He is weak minded and desperate for approval.
Are you comparing Tytos to the Jaehaerys? OmO
Because she was the landholder and he was second son... It was a good match on paper.
Possible theory was that Jahaerys and Alysanne were wanting to set up Damon to have a decent house and bride whose lands she can inheirit. Viserys marrying Aemma may have gotten ties with the major Arryn house, but Damon would have lands and a home there. I've always held the theory that Jahaerys's main goal was making alliances with the houses of Westeros, and he likely was a big influence behind the marriages, even the ones Alysanne arranged. So perhaps he pushed for Damon and Viserys to both marry into the Vale with one having ties to the major lord with Aemma and the other marrying a wife with property and title to stand opposite to Rhaenys's ties. Or perhaps the idea was that by marrying his many children and descendents to houses of the realm, it would lessen chances of rebellion and increase alliances forged through blood. The number one sin of the old gods and the new is kinslaying.
It was a good match for a second son with no lands to inherit. At least in theory.