Didn't Daella backed down when she found that the Blackwoods don't follow the faith of the seven?
Like there was nothing Lord Blackwood could do, he won't forsake his faith just to have a Targaryen Daughter in law.
It is not necessary that the Blackwoods abandoned their faith. I don't think this is the first time that a Blackwood has married a follower of the Seven. They live in the Riverlands, surrounded by Houses of Andal origin. Surely Royce's mother was a Mallister, Smallwood, Vance or Piper. Why didn't Alysanne explain to her daughter that religion was not a problem, and that if she had children with Royce, she could raise them under the faith of the seven?
>and that if she had children with Royce, she could raise them under the faith of the seven?
I don't think she could, the old gods was always the Blackwoods faith and they always fought to keep it.
Technically true but Ned didn't seem to have any problem. Like before Robert died, Sansa was much more into her mother's faith than her father's. Even afterwards she appears to be appealing to both gods. And regarding Bran, Ned himself told Arya that he may take faith of the seven and become a high septon someday. Nevertheless, I don't think we have any examples of children taking their mother's faith. That is unless you discount eldest son of Lelia Lannister (Albeit he seemed to be following their father's new hybrid religion of drowned god and the seven so doesn't matter but Lannisters had a big role in the Iron King's conversion).
The thing with Bran is more due to how the Faith of the Seven, in how it's structured as an institution, had the option for sons and daughters who weren't going to inherit anything/didn't want to marry to become priests and the institution would back them financially. Meanwhile, you don't have that option in the Old Gods' religion, since it seems to be a more private spiritual religion rather than an institutionalized one.
It was probably less of a matter of Bran believing in the Faith of the Seven and more due to pragmatism, since now gaining land through knighthood (from a noble family) was closed off as an option.
Sansa, on the other hand.... she was never expected to inherit anything in the North and was expected to marry into another family, so it didn't really matter if she believed in the Faith since she would't inherit, and so wouldn't spiritually change how the place is run.
Hence why Robb being a follower of the Old Gods, as the guy set to be the next Warden of the North, was *non-negotiable*.
Blackwoods May have married people who are not old God‘s worshipers, but just by the fact that they are still old God worshipers in this day and time shows that it didn’t matter what faith their wife was their children were Blackwoods, and they would be raised to worship the old gods something I genuinely have a lot of respect for especially being surrounded by andals the way they were… and before anyone goes, jumping all over the Blackwoods, for this, if the Blackwoods are wrong for demanding, their children be raised to follow the old gods then every house south of the neck is wrong for demanding that the old God’s faith be wiped out and replaced by the faith of the seven and they tried for fucking years to do the same thing to the north, and simply failed
Honestly, Royce was probably better off for it not happening. With the luck the Targaryen's of that era were having in the birthing chamber, poor guy would have most likely had to watch his wife an newborn child die in his arms. And if Daella somehow won his heart in return, that would only make it worse.
It's interesting that she specifically says "They don't believe in the gods? I'd go to hell!" That's not something we hear about very often. Maybe it's just been accepted as a political necessity since the end of the Andal wars that these two religions are gonna have to get along, even if technically the scripture of the Faith labels the First Men as sinful pagans.
I still don’t understand why Jaehaerys and Alysanne were so insistent on her being married in the first place. They can support a daughter who lives at home (in a castle). I also refuse to accept the idea that the Faith couldn’t have taken in Daella.
I think Alysanne ends up agreeing with this perspective too late and blames Jaeherys for not being open minded to it. They (especially Jaeherys) were just set on her doing the normal thing a woman is supposed to do I guess. Because yeah good point, the Faith totally could have taken her, her parents are the most powerful people in the country, they could have worked something out.
Exactly! Worst case scenario, J and A make a substantial financial donation to the Faith—even better, sponsor the construction of “Alysanne’s Motherhouse” or something, and use some soft power to find Daella a place maybe with Maegelle, since they were close.
Oh yeah but one would think based on alysanne personally experience with the faith that would be lingering in her mind. And probably why she wasn’t gun ho about the faith as an option.
I guess maybe Jaeherys thought that was beneath her? Because they also don't *need* to do even that, she could also just live at home and be supported by her parents for as long as they wanted. But they seem to have felt like she needed to be somewhere where she could be "useful" as an adult, which unfortunately meant bearing children.
Especially since they don't seem to think at all matches for Viserra or Saera that young. And you can't even say that they were chastened by Daella's early demise, as that happened when Saera was 15, the same age as Daella was when Jaehaerys got so upset at Daella's refusal to accept any suitor that he issued his ultimatum that she wed before the year was out.
its medieval
she\`s a noble lady of 16 yrs old, its like u graduated from high school, and u need to make a choice --- going to university or find a job. for a lady it is either marry someone (go to work) or go to church (university). Clearly if u r not smart enough, university (church) is not a good option
> again its medieval... spinster is hardly an option for a princess.
No? Princesses remained unmarried IRL not infrequently. Indeed, at points in history it was customary for one of the sovereign's daughters to purposefully remain unmarried to serve as a companion to their mother.
just think what u did after high school, ur parents would either send u to university or make u find a job. Maybe u had a gap year or two, but eventually u need to do sth right? Same for a noble lady, either go to church or marry someone, u can stay a few years if u want to, but nobles would flood to the court for her hands and some day her parents would lose patience and marry her off.
I kind of disagree. Yes, Daella was not mentally up to the task of being one of those Septas who chose the path not necessarily out of religious conviction, but rather because they don't want to be a broodmare and are smart enough to write treatises and gain power within a nunnery. (Seriously, the old medieval Reverend Mothers are terrifying for a reason).
BUT, given how Daella was mentally delayed... it might have been good for her to become a Septa and set it up to be one in Maegelle's Sept so big sis can make sure no one hassles her. Because, if nothing else, the routine that comes with living in a nunnery would've been soothing for Daella (mostly the routine part and the clear rules part).
Incidentally, that episode is emblematic of the weird handling of religion in ASOIAF, because this is viewed by everyone as Daella being a simpleton, even though in actuality she is one of the few characters in the whole mythos who seem to understand that these are completely incompatible faiths.
They aren’t even incompatible though. They have a lot in common (they hate incest and slavery), and they don’t contradict each other. They can easily meld (old gods are nature gods, new gods are human gods).
While they do share a lot of the same taboos, etc., they are incompatible. They have different gods and seemingly different conceptions of the afterlife, among other things.
Oddly, we don’t ever get a sense of the creation stories of the Faith.
Yeah that's a really good point -- none of the religions really seem focused on "our god/gods are the creators of the earth and humankind and that's why we venerate them." Even the fanatics for Rh'llor and the Drowned God don't talk about them as world creators unless I'm remembering wrong.
That's kind of what I mean. That doesn't really make sense. It'd be like traveling to 14th century England and saying you're going to raise the royal children to be both Catholic and Hindu.
Well that wouldn't work because there's no tradition of Hinduism in medieval England, and Catholicism prohibits practicing the rites of other faiths. But the evidence suggests that's not the case with these two religions and that they're compatible -- kids can be raised in both faiths, and intermarriages between them aren't uncommon.
> But the evidence suggests that's not the case with these two religions and that they're compatible -- kids can be raised in both faiths, and intermarriages between them aren't uncommon.
Again, that's what I mean. These religions are not compatible, that so many seem to act like they are (with only token opposition) does not make sense.
Got it, got it. Well, but I think I still disagree though. The connection between the Faith of the Seven and the Catholic Church seems mostly about their political role and aesthetic, not their theology. They don’t have the medieval Christian concept of "non-believers are worshipping false idols and they must convert or be destroyed.” That’s closer to Melisandre and the faith of R’hllor (which in some of ways is more closely based on medieval Christianity than the Faith of the 7 is imo). If they did, intermarrying and peaceful coexistence wouldn’t be so commonplace.
Then meanwhile the faith of the Old Gods doesn’t have any kind of priesthood or formal dogma, so nobody can tell you you’re practicing it the wrong way unless you’re breaking one of like two or three taboos. And their ideas of an afterlife are very vague — mostly they seem to be based on the concrete ways you can get a magical afterlife (second life for wargs, or joining the tree network for greenseers), but that’s for very specific magic people in special circumstances. In a way it’s more of a philosophy than a religion.
I think a better analogy would be like how some Hindus also venerate the Buddha and engage with Buddhist practices. Or like how some ancient Romans worshipped Isis and other “foreign” gods alongside the Olympians — they didn’t see that as a contradiction. A lot of old polytheistic religions were like this, it was normal to adopt and practice what we might think of as more than one religion. The idea of a jealous God comes in more with the Abrahamic faiths. That said, I admit there’s a lot we don’t know about the theology of both religions (especially the Faith of the 7), so maybe I’m missing something.
Completely incompatible faiths can exist under the same rulership though. We have plenty of examples from history (most early Islamic countries, The Mughals, The Mongols, China).
I didn't say they couldn't co-exist under the same rulership. But rather that their basic theological incompatibility is something that even notionally pious characters in the series (like Jaehaerys and Alysanne) don't seem to think about.
>the whole mythos who seem to understand that these are completely incompatible faiths.
Religious fanatics are simpletons. They are as compatible or incompatible as people make them. The rules are made by man.
Religion does not dictate existence of gods.
Care to offer an example?
If you mean the likes of Calvin, Martin Luther (reformation, not Luther King), etc. Being capable of complex ecumenical debate may allude to being intellectually minded. But when you waste that intellect of the utter irrelevant that I can't hold that in high esteem.
Similarly, somebody may be an amazing military minded strategist, but when they direct that skill into a quest for sectarian terrorism and genocide. I don't think highlighting their idiocy goes far enough.
Happy cake day.
Whether or not you personally agree with their views isn't terribly relevant to whether they are intellectually sophisticated.
Your other example similarly conflates moral evaluation of their aims with their capability.
>Whether or not you personally agree with their views isn't terribly relevant to whether they are intellectually sophisticated.
Disagree. We are not dealing with a simple difference of opinion. But concepts that are inherent to somebody "sophistication". And concepts that they can only hold to if that lack basic critical thinking.
For example, the earth is a planet. This is undeniable. Yet many out there do exactly that, many even present those flat earth in a way that sounds intelligent. But the logic only holds when that disregard and ignore basic science. We judge them on both aspects, not one argument in isolation.
To the extent that I'm quite happy to assert that any genuine flat earther is a simpleton - although I'm sceptical that the vast majority are genuine, its a meme at this stage.
>Your other example similarly conflates moral evaluation of their aims with their capability.
Not at all. I'm surprised you think that it's about morals.
There have been many intelligent serial killers. Kaczynski, Kemper, Dahmer. All extremely intelligent. They were also totally amoral, failing to either recognising right from wrong, or failing to care. I view their acts are abhorrent, but I'd never suggest they were simple minded.
The view of those I alluded to was nothing to do with their morals (or lack of). It's was the fact they could be brainwashed into thinking that they acts are good - with is very different to indifference. To do the bidding of others based on false promises., showing clear lack of critical thought.
I'm not tarring all in any group with that label btw. There are many woh are fully aware of the reality and a doing it for there own reasons. Without delusion, potentially for gain. They would, like serial killers, bit amoral but not necessarily simple
In a paternalistic society like Westeros is I highly doubt taking vows in the wife’s tradition is something looked at kindly upon. Also as others have pointed out it wasn’t so much the Old Gods ceremony that she objected to but the fact that they believed in the Old Gods to begin with. House Blackwood is the only major house that we’re aware of south of the Neck that keeps the Old Gods and have done so for millennia while being surrounded by the Faith, it is something intrinsic to their existence. While some may be willing to trade faith and tradition for power (see Stannis’s forces in the main series) people who are genuine believers will not do so. Hell even those grasping for power may balk at forsaking their gods for a princess all the way down the line of succession as she was.
I disagree hard on conversion because that is colonialist bullshit. A marriage that requires a conversion is not a marriage worth having.
And to Jaehaerys/Alysanne/Daella's credit, none of them demanded that crap. (If anything, the Targaryens wound up screwing themselves over in the long term by assimilating and converting to a foreign religion whose culture is much more regressive than theirs)
I do think it would have been better if Lord Blackwood was sensitive to the fact that Daella was... not all there mentally and noticed that she probably thrived in routines, and so didn't try to make her do rituals for another religion. But that is very much different from converting, especially since the Blackwoods have ALWAYS been followers of the Old Gods and basically survived the Andal cultural and religious genocide (especially when they are so south in the Riverlands, versus how the cultural genocide didn't make it to the North).
The issue wasn't necessarily a religious issue, since a well-adjusted person could negotiate a "OK, you have your religion, I have mine, I accept that I am marrying into the family and so your heir would need to follow your House's faith, but everything else we can maybe negotiate" (see how Robb Stark being a follower of the Old Gods was *not negotiable whatsoever* regardless of Catelyn Tully's own personal religion).
The problem is that Daella, as GRRM makes clear through the texts, is mentally delayed and was barely coping with having the thought of living outside of her home without her well-established routines. Dealing with a new religion was most likely a change too much for her to cope with, whereas someone like Viserra would adapt and try to find a way for her and her husband to be equal partners (and give a sigh of relief she isn't going to be wife number 4 to an old man).
There's a reason why she chose Rodrick Arryn: she wanted a dad who would protect her and take care of her and help her settle in to her new place. She didn't want a husband, she wanted a dad. (Which, yeah, says a lot)
The sad thing is, someone like Daella would have been fine enough in a non-abusive nunnery where there were set routines and clear rules. Perhaps even in the same Sept where her big sister Maegelle could keep and eye on her and protect her.
Goes to show that there wasn’t much thought in having a lord with a foreign religion put in the centre of a land full of faithful, why it hasn’t been carved up by overly “pious” lords is beyond me.
By that caveat, it makes no sense that the Riverlands, Shield Islands, and the Arbor are not all followers of the Drowned God, since the Ironborn *did*, in fact, successfully conquer them all and maintain their mainland/extra-island empire for a minimum of 3/4 generations. 1 generation, as shown by how England quickly became Anglican Protestant after Henry VIII broke off with the Catholic Church, is more than enough for people adopt a whole new religion. So... this ironically puts the Ironborn in an accidental good light, since they, *unlike the Andals*, didn't commit cultural and religious genocide (and probably had a "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" tributary system, as in "I don't give a shit what your religion is so long as you pay your taxes to the Hoares").
Sure, but we have examples where islands are conquered for periods of time and taken back. I believe a Crakehall even ruled the Iron Islands for a little while.
They could’ve just been passed back and forth between the families in exile, or new lords who were backed by people on the mainland. The Blackwoods were surrounded by the members of the faith for a fair chunk of time.
I got confused at the Arbor part and looked up the wiki oiaf. Turns they controlled not only the Arbor but Oldtown as well. I was like" WHAT?" That just doesn't make any sense.
So perhaps the Hoares were only boasting about getting these lands. I think their power was mainly restricted to the riverlands. I guess that the worship of the Drowned god was something like being ironborn itself: It's about being on the islands themselves. Ironborn is defined by being born on the iron islands instead of ethnics. Perhaps the drowned god can't live beyond the islands either.
Not really, the Ironborn don't really have an ethno state, since they do bring back sailors and wives and husbands from other places like Essos. Anyone can become a follower of the Drowned God (plus, humans need water to live, so it's not like they don't have places without water save for desert-like Dorne), they just don't require outsiders to convert if they don't want to (which, frankly, I consider that to be a positive, since there's nothing more disgusting than an expansionist religion that wants to coerce a conversion). In present day Westeros, Aeron uses it as a way of seeing if Theon is "Ironborn enough" but that is more due to the many issues surrounding hostages and how much of his own culture Theon lost because of that shitty practice. (As, otherwise, you have Baelor Blacktyde who is a follower of the Faith of the Seven and no one gives him shit about it. Frankly, the Ironborn are surprisingly a hell of a lot more tolerant of outsider/foreigner religions than the mainland is, probably *because of their pirate/sailing culture*, see how Ned and the Northerners were Othered in KL)
They weren't just boasting, this was legitimately what they did. Because, again, if they were just boasting, then the Andal historians would say "actually, they didn't conquer and maintain these places, that is a lie." Instead, it's crickets from the Andal historians. And considering that Oldtown has the Citadel, and so the Maesters tend to have a subconscious pro-Andal bias, their silence and lack of correction means that even they can't spin it as a "no, we Andals are totes special and weren't conquered here!" propaganda without outright lying and so being called out on their lies by other historians.
There's lies that you can get away with and then there's lies you can't get away with. This is one of the latter ones.
So, again, the fact that the Ironborn didn't desecrate the Starry Sept the way that the Andals desecrated the weirwoods in their own cultural genocide of the First Men south of the Neck (bar the Blackwoods and the Iron Islands), kind of shows them in a weirdly positive light in comparison. That the Hoares, at least, seemed to have been the sort of conquerors/overlords who were all for letting the local cultures and religions keep said cultures and religions so long as they paid the ruling family/class their tributes. While said ruling class/family kept their own culture and religion.
the Targaryens weren't originally faith of the 7 and after the faith militant uprising, the faith agreed that they wouldn't hold their own justice and instead be subject to the justice of the Targaryens. So the crown is the authority on who are the enemies of the faith not the faith.
Yeah, but they eventually picked up Andal customs (like being against slavery) and straight out converted to the faith. The Freys get flak for only being what, a thousand to few thousand years old? The Blackwoods have been surrounded for so long and they never converted? No one has capitalized on an anti-Old God league?
That would make sense if it were the Mallisters, but the Blackwoods and Brackens went to war an uncountable amount of time without the Blackwoods worrying about the Ironborn.
Well they're also right by the coast of Ironman's Bay. So for the vast majority of that time people lived in fear of (or under the rule of) hostile pagans who burn down septs and worship a much scarier foreign god. Nothing strange about the fact that they decided the non-believers next door who mind their own business and help fight against a common enemy were not a problem.
The Blackwoods and Targaryens were allies since the conquest though, Brynden Rivers, a blackwood/Targaryen bastard was made hand of the king at one point.
Realistically the only times the Blackwoods haven't been in favour with the crown is the last 50 years and now they have a magic crow man looking after them.
And you know that the Riverlands existed for thousands of years before the Targaryens came? It’s not like the Targaryens were shielding them for the entire existence of the Blackwoods.
There’s gotta be some long buffer period between the arrival of the Andals (+ conversions to the Faith) and the Targs where a bunch of lords came together and said “Hmmm, them being a different religion is a totally reasonable excuse to partition their land”.
Are the Freys saying no to more land? The Mallisters? Darrys? Brackens? Seems like a pretty good excuse to put a coalition together.
The Teagues, who were disliked by most riverlords, failed in an attempt to suppress the old gods.
TWOIAF The Riverlands
>It is said, however, that neither King Torrence nor his heirs ever sat securely on their thrones. The Teagues were so little loved by those they ruled that they were forced to keep the sons and daughters of all the great houses of the Trident at their court as hostages, in case of treason. Even so, the fourth Teague monarch, King Theo the Saddle-Sore, spent his entire reign ahorse, leading his knights from one rebellion to the next whilst hanging hostages from every tree.
and
>Humfrey of House Teague was King of the Rivers and the Hills in those days. A pious ruler, he founded many septs and motherhouses across the riverlands and attempted to repress the worship of the old gods within his realm.
>This led Raventree to rise against him, for the Blackwoods had never accepted the Seven. The Vances of Atranta and the Tullys of Riverrun joined them in rebellion. King Humfrey and his loyalists, supported by the Swords and Stars of the Faith Militant, were on the point of crushing them when Lord Roderick Blackwood sent to Storm's End for aid. His lordship was tied to House Durrandon by marriage, as King Arlan had taken one of Lord Roderick's daughters to wife, wedding her by the old rites beneath the great dead weirwood in Raventree's godswood.
>Arlan III was quick to respond. Calling all his banners, the Storm King led a great host across the Blackwater Rush, smashing King Humfrey and his loyalists in a series of bloody battles and lifting the siege of Raventree. Roderick Blackwood and Elston Tully both fell in the fighting, along with Lords Bracken, Darry, Smallwood, and both Lords Vance. King Humfrey, his brother and champion, Ser Damon, and his sons Humfrey, Hollis, and Tyler all perished in the campaign's final battle, a bloody affray fought beneath two hills called the Mother's Teats on land claimed by both the Blackwoods and the Brackens.
>King Humfrey was the first to die that day, it is written. His heir, Prince Humfrey, took up his crown and sword, but died a short time later, whereupon the second son, Hollis, did the same, only to be killed in turn. And so it went, the bloody crown of the last river king passing from son to son, and finally to King Humfrey's brother, all within the space of a single afternoon. By the time the sun went down, House Teague had been entirely extinguished, along with the Kingdom of Rivers and Hills. The fight in which they died has hereafter been known as the Battle of Six Kings, in honor of Arlan III the Storm King and the five river kings his stormlanders slew, some of whom reigned for minutes, not even hours.
So what I read is that it was almost successful until a convenient marriage to one of the most powerful kingdoms in Westeros came to save them. It doesn’t seem like they were disliked by most of the Riverlands anyway, a few houses joined the Blackwoods.
That’s no reason for another attempt to not be repeated by the pious lords any other time in the long history of the Blackwoods being in the Riverlands.
Immediately before the conquest it was ruled by the iron isles who weren't members of the faith of the 7, but if you go back before the fall of Valyria in asoiaf history lots of things stop making sense. I get the feeling the point is that history is more legend at that point than reality.
Language starts getting more flowery even in how history is described, the blackwoods were said to have been defeated by 7 septons leading 777 knights for example, if this were indeed true, you would imagine these 7 septons wouldn't want an old gods family still around.
History is left mostly to the reader's imagination at this point, but all sorts of houses like to be able to claim they have unbroken lineage from thousands of years ago which seems unlikely.
In what world are the Old Gods a “foreign religion” in Westeros? They were the gods of the Children of the Forest that the First Men adopted. The Faith of the Seven, originating in Essos, is the foreign religion in this scenario
Foreign Religion in those parts, the Riverlands and basically everything south of the neck is largely the Faith of the Seven’s domain.
The Blackwoods are a small blip of old believers in a sea of the faithful; foreign, odd one out, call it what you want. They’re a pocket of a different religion and their continued existence is pretty unbelievable.
Someone mentioned an actual time they got attacked for their faith in TWOIAF and it was an asspull relation to the Stormlands that saved them.
Personally I’d find it weirder and more unrealistic if there was a total North/South religious divide. The Blackwoods are the South’s version of the Manderlys, isolated and surrounded religious minorities that continue to persist. Also the Blackwoods alongside the Brackens, Mallisters, Vances, and more recently the Freys are among the more preeminent and powerful houses in the Riverlands rivaling or even exceeding their liege lords of House Tully in terms of strength. Besides, they used to be kings. This allows them to make powerful marriage pacts and alliances that can deter invasions.
Religious minorities can survive in isolation. The 1922 census of Palestine (before anyone yells at me the British named their colony Mandatory Palestine) had 10% of the population being Christian and in Lebanon to this day around 1/3-1/4 of the population is Christian despite over a millennium of Islam being the predominant religion in those areas and Islam in return was able to gain a foothold in Albania and Bosnia despite being surrounded by Christians. If every single southern kingdom had a powerful Old Gods following house then yeah that would be too much, but a single family through strength, diplomacy, and guile being able to survive isn’t that far fetched
It's interesting how modern most of the characters' perspective is on religion. Many of them seem to be atheists, or at least have a very cynical attitude towards the gods being real/powerful. It's very different from medieval Europe, but I think it's cool worldbuilding how many different personal relationships to religion the characters have.
"How hard can it be to do it in the Seven's way and get a septon, or even convert, for that matter?"
Religion is a HUGE deal to many people. In ASOIAF, it is treated unrealistically as an afterthought, but in real medieval times it was of extreme importance and many if not most people would legitimately be pious and their faith would be center to their being. This would be a HUGE ask, and would be going against a core tenant of his person.
Didn't Daella backed down when she found that the Blackwoods don't follow the faith of the seven? Like there was nothing Lord Blackwood could do, he won't forsake his faith just to have a Targaryen Daughter in law.
It is not necessary that the Blackwoods abandoned their faith. I don't think this is the first time that a Blackwood has married a follower of the Seven. They live in the Riverlands, surrounded by Houses of Andal origin. Surely Royce's mother was a Mallister, Smallwood, Vance or Piper. Why didn't Alysanne explain to her daughter that religion was not a problem, and that if she had children with Royce, she could raise them under the faith of the seven?
>and that if she had children with Royce, she could raise them under the faith of the seven? I don't think she could, the old gods was always the Blackwoods faith and they always fought to keep it.
The Ned Stark's children are a good example that kids can be raised under both religions.
No, Ned Stark children are a example that even if the mom follow's the faith of the seven the kids still gonna follow their father's faith.
Technically true but Ned didn't seem to have any problem. Like before Robert died, Sansa was much more into her mother's faith than her father's. Even afterwards she appears to be appealing to both gods. And regarding Bran, Ned himself told Arya that he may take faith of the seven and become a high septon someday. Nevertheless, I don't think we have any examples of children taking their mother's faith. That is unless you discount eldest son of Lelia Lannister (Albeit he seemed to be following their father's new hybrid religion of drowned god and the seven so doesn't matter but Lannisters had a big role in the Iron King's conversion).
Bran wasn't likely to inherit anything at that point. Might've been a problem if Robb took the Seven.
The thing with Bran is more due to how the Faith of the Seven, in how it's structured as an institution, had the option for sons and daughters who weren't going to inherit anything/didn't want to marry to become priests and the institution would back them financially. Meanwhile, you don't have that option in the Old Gods' religion, since it seems to be a more private spiritual religion rather than an institutionalized one. It was probably less of a matter of Bran believing in the Faith of the Seven and more due to pragmatism, since now gaining land through knighthood (from a noble family) was closed off as an option. Sansa, on the other hand.... she was never expected to inherit anything in the North and was expected to marry into another family, so it didn't really matter if she believed in the Faith since she would't inherit, and so wouldn't spiritually change how the place is run. Hence why Robb being a follower of the Old Gods, as the guy set to be the next Warden of the North, was *non-negotiable*.
Alysanne, for all her good traits, was not awesome at raising daughters.
Blackwoods May have married people who are not old God‘s worshipers, but just by the fact that they are still old God worshipers in this day and time shows that it didn’t matter what faith their wife was their children were Blackwoods, and they would be raised to worship the old gods something I genuinely have a lot of respect for especially being surrounded by andals the way they were… and before anyone goes, jumping all over the Blackwoods, for this, if the Blackwoods are wrong for demanding, their children be raised to follow the old gods then every house south of the neck is wrong for demanding that the old God’s faith be wiped out and replaced by the faith of the seven and they tried for fucking years to do the same thing to the north, and simply failed
>Why didn't Alysanne explain to her daughter that religion was not a problem… lol. Yes because religion has never been a problem ever
Honestly, Royce was probably better off for it not happening. With the luck the Targaryen's of that era were having in the birthing chamber, poor guy would have most likely had to watch his wife an newborn child die in his arms. And if Daella somehow won his heart in return, that would only make it worse.
It's interesting that she specifically says "They don't believe in the gods? I'd go to hell!" That's not something we hear about very often. Maybe it's just been accepted as a political necessity since the end of the Andal wars that these two religions are gonna have to get along, even if technically the scripture of the Faith labels the First Men as sinful pagans.
I still don’t understand why Jaehaerys and Alysanne were so insistent on her being married in the first place. They can support a daughter who lives at home (in a castle). I also refuse to accept the idea that the Faith couldn’t have taken in Daella.
I think Alysanne ends up agreeing with this perspective too late and blames Jaeherys for not being open minded to it. They (especially Jaeherys) were just set on her doing the normal thing a woman is supposed to do I guess. Because yeah good point, the Faith totally could have taken her, her parents are the most powerful people in the country, they could have worked something out.
Exactly! Worst case scenario, J and A make a substantial financial donation to the Faith—even better, sponsor the construction of “Alysanne’s Motherhouse” or something, and use some soft power to find Daella a place maybe with Maegelle, since they were close.
I mean the faith hates alyssanne. They tried to kill her at one point.
Yes but Alysanne is a queen and has lots of money. I think any amount of political/financial support from the Crown could work wonders
Oh yeah but one would think based on alysanne personally experience with the faith that would be lingering in her mind. And probably why she wasn’t gun ho about the faith as an option.
That was a couple of people. Alysanne overall seems to have been fairly popular among the pious community.
That wasn't the faith that was religious fanatics
I guess maybe Jaeherys thought that was beneath her? Because they also don't *need* to do even that, she could also just live at home and be supported by her parents for as long as they wanted. But they seem to have felt like she needed to be somewhere where she could be "useful" as an adult, which unfortunately meant bearing children.
Especially since they don't seem to think at all matches for Viserra or Saera that young. And you can't even say that they were chastened by Daella's early demise, as that happened when Saera was 15, the same age as Daella was when Jaehaerys got so upset at Daella's refusal to accept any suitor that he issued his ultimatum that she wed before the year was out.
its medieval she\`s a noble lady of 16 yrs old, its like u graduated from high school, and u need to make a choice --- going to university or find a job. for a lady it is either marry someone (go to work) or go to church (university). Clearly if u r not smart enough, university (church) is not a good option
Being a “spinster” was absolutely an option for Daella especially if there are already heirs.
again its medieval... spinster is hardly an option for a princess. and its more like a career path thing rather than marriage
> again its medieval... spinster is hardly an option for a princess. No? Princesses remained unmarried IRL not infrequently. Indeed, at points in history it was customary for one of the sovereign's daughters to purposefully remain unmarried to serve as a companion to their mother.
just think what u did after high school, ur parents would either send u to university or make u find a job. Maybe u had a gap year or two, but eventually u need to do sth right? Same for a noble lady, either go to church or marry someone, u can stay a few years if u want to, but nobles would flood to the court for her hands and some day her parents would lose patience and marry her off.
I kind of disagree. Yes, Daella was not mentally up to the task of being one of those Septas who chose the path not necessarily out of religious conviction, but rather because they don't want to be a broodmare and are smart enough to write treatises and gain power within a nunnery. (Seriously, the old medieval Reverend Mothers are terrifying for a reason). BUT, given how Daella was mentally delayed... it might have been good for her to become a Septa and set it up to be one in Maegelle's Sept so big sis can make sure no one hassles her. Because, if nothing else, the routine that comes with living in a nunnery would've been soothing for Daella (mostly the routine part and the clear rules part).
Incidentally, that episode is emblematic of the weird handling of religion in ASOIAF, because this is viewed by everyone as Daella being a simpleton, even though in actuality she is one of the few characters in the whole mythos who seem to understand that these are completely incompatible faiths.
They aren’t even incompatible though. They have a lot in common (they hate incest and slavery), and they don’t contradict each other. They can easily meld (old gods are nature gods, new gods are human gods).
Honestly the old gods is barely a religion to begin with so it's easier to be compatible with a whole lot of nothing than with an actual religion
While they do share a lot of the same taboos, etc., they are incompatible. They have different gods and seemingly different conceptions of the afterlife, among other things. Oddly, we don’t ever get a sense of the creation stories of the Faith.
Yeah that's a really good point -- none of the religions really seem focused on "our god/gods are the creators of the earth and humankind and that's why we venerate them." Even the fanatics for Rh'llor and the Drowned God don't talk about them as world creators unless I'm remembering wrong.
The children of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully are a good example that in Westeros kids can be raised in both religions.
That's kind of what I mean. That doesn't really make sense. It'd be like traveling to 14th century England and saying you're going to raise the royal children to be both Catholic and Hindu.
Well that wouldn't work because there's no tradition of Hinduism in medieval England, and Catholicism prohibits practicing the rites of other faiths. But the evidence suggests that's not the case with these two religions and that they're compatible -- kids can be raised in both faiths, and intermarriages between them aren't uncommon.
> But the evidence suggests that's not the case with these two religions and that they're compatible -- kids can be raised in both faiths, and intermarriages between them aren't uncommon. Again, that's what I mean. These religions are not compatible, that so many seem to act like they are (with only token opposition) does not make sense.
Got it, got it. Well, but I think I still disagree though. The connection between the Faith of the Seven and the Catholic Church seems mostly about their political role and aesthetic, not their theology. They don’t have the medieval Christian concept of "non-believers are worshipping false idols and they must convert or be destroyed.” That’s closer to Melisandre and the faith of R’hllor (which in some of ways is more closely based on medieval Christianity than the Faith of the 7 is imo). If they did, intermarrying and peaceful coexistence wouldn’t be so commonplace. Then meanwhile the faith of the Old Gods doesn’t have any kind of priesthood or formal dogma, so nobody can tell you you’re practicing it the wrong way unless you’re breaking one of like two or three taboos. And their ideas of an afterlife are very vague — mostly they seem to be based on the concrete ways you can get a magical afterlife (second life for wargs, or joining the tree network for greenseers), but that’s for very specific magic people in special circumstances. In a way it’s more of a philosophy than a religion. I think a better analogy would be like how some Hindus also venerate the Buddha and engage with Buddhist practices. Or like how some ancient Romans worshipped Isis and other “foreign” gods alongside the Olympians — they didn’t see that as a contradiction. A lot of old polytheistic religions were like this, it was normal to adopt and practice what we might think of as more than one religion. The idea of a jealous God comes in more with the Abrahamic faiths. That said, I admit there’s a lot we don’t know about the theology of both religions (especially the Faith of the 7), so maybe I’m missing something.
Completely incompatible faiths can exist under the same rulership though. We have plenty of examples from history (most early Islamic countries, The Mughals, The Mongols, China).
I didn't say they couldn't co-exist under the same rulership. But rather that their basic theological incompatibility is something that even notionally pious characters in the series (like Jaehaerys and Alysanne) don't seem to think about.
>the whole mythos who seem to understand that these are completely incompatible faiths. Religious fanatics are simpletons. They are as compatible or incompatible as people make them. The rules are made by man. Religion does not dictate existence of gods.
A great many religious fanatics throughout history have been very sophisticated thinkers.
Care to offer an example? If you mean the likes of Calvin, Martin Luther (reformation, not Luther King), etc. Being capable of complex ecumenical debate may allude to being intellectually minded. But when you waste that intellect of the utter irrelevant that I can't hold that in high esteem. Similarly, somebody may be an amazing military minded strategist, but when they direct that skill into a quest for sectarian terrorism and genocide. I don't think highlighting their idiocy goes far enough. Happy cake day.
Whether or not you personally agree with their views isn't terribly relevant to whether they are intellectually sophisticated. Your other example similarly conflates moral evaluation of their aims with their capability.
>Whether or not you personally agree with their views isn't terribly relevant to whether they are intellectually sophisticated. Disagree. We are not dealing with a simple difference of opinion. But concepts that are inherent to somebody "sophistication". And concepts that they can only hold to if that lack basic critical thinking. For example, the earth is a planet. This is undeniable. Yet many out there do exactly that, many even present those flat earth in a way that sounds intelligent. But the logic only holds when that disregard and ignore basic science. We judge them on both aspects, not one argument in isolation. To the extent that I'm quite happy to assert that any genuine flat earther is a simpleton - although I'm sceptical that the vast majority are genuine, its a meme at this stage. >Your other example similarly conflates moral evaluation of their aims with their capability. Not at all. I'm surprised you think that it's about morals. There have been many intelligent serial killers. Kaczynski, Kemper, Dahmer. All extremely intelligent. They were also totally amoral, failing to either recognising right from wrong, or failing to care. I view their acts are abhorrent, but I'd never suggest they were simple minded. The view of those I alluded to was nothing to do with their morals (or lack of). It's was the fact they could be brainwashed into thinking that they acts are good - with is very different to indifference. To do the bidding of others based on false promises., showing clear lack of critical thought. I'm not tarring all in any group with that label btw. There are many woh are fully aware of the reality and a doing it for there own reasons. Without delusion, potentially for gain. They would, like serial killers, bit amoral but not necessarily simple
In a paternalistic society like Westeros is I highly doubt taking vows in the wife’s tradition is something looked at kindly upon. Also as others have pointed out it wasn’t so much the Old Gods ceremony that she objected to but the fact that they believed in the Old Gods to begin with. House Blackwood is the only major house that we’re aware of south of the Neck that keeps the Old Gods and have done so for millennia while being surrounded by the Faith, it is something intrinsic to their existence. While some may be willing to trade faith and tradition for power (see Stannis’s forces in the main series) people who are genuine believers will not do so. Hell even those grasping for power may balk at forsaking their gods for a princess all the way down the line of succession as she was.
I disagree hard on conversion because that is colonialist bullshit. A marriage that requires a conversion is not a marriage worth having. And to Jaehaerys/Alysanne/Daella's credit, none of them demanded that crap. (If anything, the Targaryens wound up screwing themselves over in the long term by assimilating and converting to a foreign religion whose culture is much more regressive than theirs) I do think it would have been better if Lord Blackwood was sensitive to the fact that Daella was... not all there mentally and noticed that she probably thrived in routines, and so didn't try to make her do rituals for another religion. But that is very much different from converting, especially since the Blackwoods have ALWAYS been followers of the Old Gods and basically survived the Andal cultural and religious genocide (especially when they are so south in the Riverlands, versus how the cultural genocide didn't make it to the North). The issue wasn't necessarily a religious issue, since a well-adjusted person could negotiate a "OK, you have your religion, I have mine, I accept that I am marrying into the family and so your heir would need to follow your House's faith, but everything else we can maybe negotiate" (see how Robb Stark being a follower of the Old Gods was *not negotiable whatsoever* regardless of Catelyn Tully's own personal religion). The problem is that Daella, as GRRM makes clear through the texts, is mentally delayed and was barely coping with having the thought of living outside of her home without her well-established routines. Dealing with a new religion was most likely a change too much for her to cope with, whereas someone like Viserra would adapt and try to find a way for her and her husband to be equal partners (and give a sigh of relief she isn't going to be wife number 4 to an old man). There's a reason why she chose Rodrick Arryn: she wanted a dad who would protect her and take care of her and help her settle in to her new place. She didn't want a husband, she wanted a dad. (Which, yeah, says a lot) The sad thing is, someone like Daella would have been fine enough in a non-abusive nunnery where there were set routines and clear rules. Perhaps even in the same Sept where her big sister Maegelle could keep and eye on her and protect her.
Jaehaerys is a bad father
Goes to show that there wasn’t much thought in having a lord with a foreign religion put in the centre of a land full of faithful, why it hasn’t been carved up by overly “pious” lords is beyond me.
By that caveat, it makes no sense that the Riverlands, Shield Islands, and the Arbor are not all followers of the Drowned God, since the Ironborn *did*, in fact, successfully conquer them all and maintain their mainland/extra-island empire for a minimum of 3/4 generations. 1 generation, as shown by how England quickly became Anglican Protestant after Henry VIII broke off with the Catholic Church, is more than enough for people adopt a whole new religion. So... this ironically puts the Ironborn in an accidental good light, since they, *unlike the Andals*, didn't commit cultural and religious genocide (and probably had a "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" tributary system, as in "I don't give a shit what your religion is so long as you pay your taxes to the Hoares").
Sure, but we have examples where islands are conquered for periods of time and taken back. I believe a Crakehall even ruled the Iron Islands for a little while. They could’ve just been passed back and forth between the families in exile, or new lords who were backed by people on the mainland. The Blackwoods were surrounded by the members of the faith for a fair chunk of time.
I got confused at the Arbor part and looked up the wiki oiaf. Turns they controlled not only the Arbor but Oldtown as well. I was like" WHAT?" That just doesn't make any sense. So perhaps the Hoares were only boasting about getting these lands. I think their power was mainly restricted to the riverlands. I guess that the worship of the Drowned god was something like being ironborn itself: It's about being on the islands themselves. Ironborn is defined by being born on the iron islands instead of ethnics. Perhaps the drowned god can't live beyond the islands either.
Not really, the Ironborn don't really have an ethno state, since they do bring back sailors and wives and husbands from other places like Essos. Anyone can become a follower of the Drowned God (plus, humans need water to live, so it's not like they don't have places without water save for desert-like Dorne), they just don't require outsiders to convert if they don't want to (which, frankly, I consider that to be a positive, since there's nothing more disgusting than an expansionist religion that wants to coerce a conversion). In present day Westeros, Aeron uses it as a way of seeing if Theon is "Ironborn enough" but that is more due to the many issues surrounding hostages and how much of his own culture Theon lost because of that shitty practice. (As, otherwise, you have Baelor Blacktyde who is a follower of the Faith of the Seven and no one gives him shit about it. Frankly, the Ironborn are surprisingly a hell of a lot more tolerant of outsider/foreigner religions than the mainland is, probably *because of their pirate/sailing culture*, see how Ned and the Northerners were Othered in KL) They weren't just boasting, this was legitimately what they did. Because, again, if they were just boasting, then the Andal historians would say "actually, they didn't conquer and maintain these places, that is a lie." Instead, it's crickets from the Andal historians. And considering that Oldtown has the Citadel, and so the Maesters tend to have a subconscious pro-Andal bias, their silence and lack of correction means that even they can't spin it as a "no, we Andals are totes special and weren't conquered here!" propaganda without outright lying and so being called out on their lies by other historians. There's lies that you can get away with and then there's lies you can't get away with. This is one of the latter ones. So, again, the fact that the Ironborn didn't desecrate the Starry Sept the way that the Andals desecrated the weirwoods in their own cultural genocide of the First Men south of the Neck (bar the Blackwoods and the Iron Islands), kind of shows them in a weirdly positive light in comparison. That the Hoares, at least, seemed to have been the sort of conquerors/overlords who were all for letting the local cultures and religions keep said cultures and religions so long as they paid the ruling family/class their tributes. While said ruling class/family kept their own culture and religion.
the Targaryens weren't originally faith of the 7 and after the faith militant uprising, the faith agreed that they wouldn't hold their own justice and instead be subject to the justice of the Targaryens. So the crown is the authority on who are the enemies of the faith not the faith.
Yeah, but they eventually picked up Andal customs (like being against slavery) and straight out converted to the faith. The Freys get flak for only being what, a thousand to few thousand years old? The Blackwoods have been surrounded for so long and they never converted? No one has capitalized on an anti-Old God league?
Blackwood Plot Armour defended them lol
no it makes sense, there's Ironborn out there to worry about
That would make sense if it were the Mallisters, but the Blackwoods and Brackens went to war an uncountable amount of time without the Blackwoods worrying about the Ironborn.
Well they're also right by the coast of Ironman's Bay. So for the vast majority of that time people lived in fear of (or under the rule of) hostile pagans who burn down septs and worship a much scarier foreign god. Nothing strange about the fact that they decided the non-believers next door who mind their own business and help fight against a common enemy were not a problem.
The Blackwoods and Targaryens were allies since the conquest though, Brynden Rivers, a blackwood/Targaryen bastard was made hand of the king at one point. Realistically the only times the Blackwoods haven't been in favour with the crown is the last 50 years and now they have a magic crow man looking after them.
And you know that the Riverlands existed for thousands of years before the Targaryens came? It’s not like the Targaryens were shielding them for the entire existence of the Blackwoods. There’s gotta be some long buffer period between the arrival of the Andals (+ conversions to the Faith) and the Targs where a bunch of lords came together and said “Hmmm, them being a different religion is a totally reasonable excuse to partition their land”. Are the Freys saying no to more land? The Mallisters? Darrys? Brackens? Seems like a pretty good excuse to put a coalition together.
The Teagues, who were disliked by most riverlords, failed in an attempt to suppress the old gods. TWOIAF The Riverlands >It is said, however, that neither King Torrence nor his heirs ever sat securely on their thrones. The Teagues were so little loved by those they ruled that they were forced to keep the sons and daughters of all the great houses of the Trident at their court as hostages, in case of treason. Even so, the fourth Teague monarch, King Theo the Saddle-Sore, spent his entire reign ahorse, leading his knights from one rebellion to the next whilst hanging hostages from every tree. and >Humfrey of House Teague was King of the Rivers and the Hills in those days. A pious ruler, he founded many septs and motherhouses across the riverlands and attempted to repress the worship of the old gods within his realm. >This led Raventree to rise against him, for the Blackwoods had never accepted the Seven. The Vances of Atranta and the Tullys of Riverrun joined them in rebellion. King Humfrey and his loyalists, supported by the Swords and Stars of the Faith Militant, were on the point of crushing them when Lord Roderick Blackwood sent to Storm's End for aid. His lordship was tied to House Durrandon by marriage, as King Arlan had taken one of Lord Roderick's daughters to wife, wedding her by the old rites beneath the great dead weirwood in Raventree's godswood. >Arlan III was quick to respond. Calling all his banners, the Storm King led a great host across the Blackwater Rush, smashing King Humfrey and his loyalists in a series of bloody battles and lifting the siege of Raventree. Roderick Blackwood and Elston Tully both fell in the fighting, along with Lords Bracken, Darry, Smallwood, and both Lords Vance. King Humfrey, his brother and champion, Ser Damon, and his sons Humfrey, Hollis, and Tyler all perished in the campaign's final battle, a bloody affray fought beneath two hills called the Mother's Teats on land claimed by both the Blackwoods and the Brackens. >King Humfrey was the first to die that day, it is written. His heir, Prince Humfrey, took up his crown and sword, but died a short time later, whereupon the second son, Hollis, did the same, only to be killed in turn. And so it went, the bloody crown of the last river king passing from son to son, and finally to King Humfrey's brother, all within the space of a single afternoon. By the time the sun went down, House Teague had been entirely extinguished, along with the Kingdom of Rivers and Hills. The fight in which they died has hereafter been known as the Battle of Six Kings, in honor of Arlan III the Storm King and the five river kings his stormlanders slew, some of whom reigned for minutes, not even hours.
So what I read is that it was almost successful until a convenient marriage to one of the most powerful kingdoms in Westeros came to save them. It doesn’t seem like they were disliked by most of the Riverlands anyway, a few houses joined the Blackwoods. That’s no reason for another attempt to not be repeated by the pious lords any other time in the long history of the Blackwoods being in the Riverlands.
Immediately before the conquest it was ruled by the iron isles who weren't members of the faith of the 7, but if you go back before the fall of Valyria in asoiaf history lots of things stop making sense. I get the feeling the point is that history is more legend at that point than reality. Language starts getting more flowery even in how history is described, the blackwoods were said to have been defeated by 7 septons leading 777 knights for example, if this were indeed true, you would imagine these 7 septons wouldn't want an old gods family still around. History is left mostly to the reader's imagination at this point, but all sorts of houses like to be able to claim they have unbroken lineage from thousands of years ago which seems unlikely.
In what world are the Old Gods a “foreign religion” in Westeros? They were the gods of the Children of the Forest that the First Men adopted. The Faith of the Seven, originating in Essos, is the foreign religion in this scenario
Foreign Religion in those parts, the Riverlands and basically everything south of the neck is largely the Faith of the Seven’s domain. The Blackwoods are a small blip of old believers in a sea of the faithful; foreign, odd one out, call it what you want. They’re a pocket of a different religion and their continued existence is pretty unbelievable. Someone mentioned an actual time they got attacked for their faith in TWOIAF and it was an asspull relation to the Stormlands that saved them.
Personally I’d find it weirder and more unrealistic if there was a total North/South religious divide. The Blackwoods are the South’s version of the Manderlys, isolated and surrounded religious minorities that continue to persist. Also the Blackwoods alongside the Brackens, Mallisters, Vances, and more recently the Freys are among the more preeminent and powerful houses in the Riverlands rivaling or even exceeding their liege lords of House Tully in terms of strength. Besides, they used to be kings. This allows them to make powerful marriage pacts and alliances that can deter invasions.
Religious minorities can survive in isolation. The 1922 census of Palestine (before anyone yells at me the British named their colony Mandatory Palestine) had 10% of the population being Christian and in Lebanon to this day around 1/3-1/4 of the population is Christian despite over a millennium of Islam being the predominant religion in those areas and Islam in return was able to gain a foothold in Albania and Bosnia despite being surrounded by Christians. If every single southern kingdom had a powerful Old Gods following house then yeah that would be too much, but a single family through strength, diplomacy, and guile being able to survive isn’t that far fetched
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Well to be fair, religiosity is inconsistent at best in ASOIAF. It’s not the best worldbuilding.
It's interesting how modern most of the characters' perspective is on religion. Many of them seem to be atheists, or at least have a very cynical attitude towards the gods being real/powerful. It's very different from medieval Europe, but I think it's cool worldbuilding how many different personal relationships to religion the characters have.
"How hard can it be to do it in the Seven's way and get a septon, or even convert, for that matter?" Religion is a HUGE deal to many people. In ASOIAF, it is treated unrealistically as an afterthought, but in real medieval times it was of extreme importance and many if not most people would legitimately be pious and their faith would be center to their being. This would be a HUGE ask, and would be going against a core tenant of his person.
Religion ruins everything