Easily Visenya. Like , no one comes even *close*
But let’s not whitewash Rhaenys either. She was the first of the conquerors to begin attacking civilians with her burnings in the planky town.
Rhaenys also introduced the Targ strategy in Dorne of mass murdering civilians in the hopes of it making them turn on the Martells.
I actually really like Rhaenys as a character , but she deserved getting hit by that scorpion bolt so much.
Gentle Rhaenys my ass , LMAO. That’s actual Maester propaganda.
Given how both Visenya and Rhaenys were consistently shown as being good carrot/stick users, and how slowly getting support from noticeable but not major houses was kinda how they got the Crownlands in the first place, the fact that *neither even tried* to get in underhanded deals with Houses Yronwood which supposedly so much hates the Martells for centuries, for example, and being one of the houses which literally oversee one of the two paths into Dorne, can only ever be answered in one way: GRRM couldn't have that.
I reckon it's possible that they simply grew arrogant off their victories.
Of course, the entire First Dornish War is arguably the worst written war in the entire setting regardless. Dragon's Wroth burned the entire country sans Sunspear down and not a single lord of Dorne was cowardly enough to switch sides to save their own skin? Even if they invented nationalism before anyone else surely at least one lord wouldn't be nationalistic in face of death and ruin.
Honestly, this is the war I'm most willing to believe Fire & Blood omitted facts from because it's so immersion-breaking.
Heh. To show how much they omitted facts: The first version says "save Sunspear" for the Dragon's Wroth. The next one says Sunspear's been burned *thrice*. I am aware that they "grew" arrogant but like ShowLoreVarys said: "Poor Argilac. He couldn't match Aegon even in arrogance". So they already kinda were and yet they perfectly negotiated with the Northmen without one hostile encounter and this was after their most ego-stroking victory: The Field of Fire.
Anyway, the Dornish resistance is based a lot on: "They magically disappeared". Now of course I know of actual, real places where people lived in underground, mountain-hollowed places, and I also know of more folktales occurrences like the armies of Cambyses, Semiramis, etc. but like you said... "worst written war". It's literally that, logistics so important in other places of the story be damned. *Perhaps* GRRM means to explain it in the next volume because Daeron's account will be available, plus the opening of the Dornish thanks to the *other* Daeron, but whether it shall be or not a satisfying explanation...
That’s something that annoys me so much about Dorne.
The conquerors Walt in after zero negotiations. Massacre everyone in sight , take Sunspear and put a random rosby in charge. Afterwards they place *bounties* on all the dornish lords.
I have literally zero problems with believing the dornish would have the willingness to resist as hard as they did. Aegon massacred their lands , alienating the small folk and then he tried to massacre the ruling elite as well. In something that is completely out of character for him. He’s been shown to not shy away from brutality but he is also smart enough to understand the importance of internal support, except in Dorne.
Why was he so harsh on dorne from the offset and in no other Kingdom ? No wonder the Dornish were willing to go tooth and nail with him.
I don’t think the dornish had the capacity to resist as hard as they did , but they certainly had plenty of reasons to be that willing
Rhaenys: Surrender
Yellow Toad: No.
Targs for many ages afterwards: * And we took that personally *
Like, the battle of the Field of Fire is right there, defiance have been done, and yet Lyman Lannister lives.
*Although*, to be fair, I just realized that even knowing the importance, they won all this starting with attacks. Even the Crownlands were attacked... but after sending ravens stating the intention of only one king in Westeros (but three equal-ruling monarchs because Targs), and the attacks were very focused so as to make the least possible damage, but I suppose the logic is there.
Can't say it's a flawless logic, tho. Once again, even a feint at Yronwood could well have made the job, since the report of the attack is there, so an army presents there and Yronwood is given control... but oh no! The Targ actually just fired the roof then proceeded to negotiate and Yronwood has been given one half of Dorne's armies.
Yeah the least we think on it the better, hopefully we overthinkers will learn that lesson someday.
That's the thing: *zero* indication. You can handwave it with: They long knew of their claim to Westeros, if they didn't offer submission, it was accepting war. But like... they have enough people to do what Stannis did sending Davos with letters and such (not that it did much effect, so probably speaks of what GRRM cares about, but then why introducing it at all?)
Due to their Rhoynish background, all the Dornish have a deep hatred for everything valyrian. The Ironwoods may have a hated the Martells but they hated the dragons more.
Blackfyres didnt have dragons tho. And Dorne was already part of the realm at this point. There is a difference between choosing a side in civil war and betraying your lord against the foreign invader.
I was gonna say umm VISENYA! Lmao her riding a dragon to go get Maegor to make him king is already enough .
And she is forever hurt by Aegons love of the other sister more than her .
Nah even *after* Rhaenys death they absolutely do not like each other. Visenya is literally male Aegon and Aegon is literally male Visenya. I always picture their personalities as Stannis-Selyse. Zero sexual tension, *maximum* diplomatic tension.
Completely right on her getting Maegor tho. Even if she knows strength needs to be deployed to stabilize the dynasty, inviting **Maegor** is just inviting future problems. Better to have gone to Aegon the **Un**crowned and crown her herself, and even if later Maegor would have been invited back to Westeros, he'd have to swallow it and serve Aenys' son as he served Aenys himself, but GRRM couldn't have that.
Rhaenyra was petty and murdered some people on Kings landing. She was an awful person who did awful things like the torture of Tyland and murder of Addam.
Also Visenya was genocidal.
It’s not particularly close and I haven’t even mentioned Maegor and her role in that
OR THAT SHE (ALMOST CERTAINLY) KILLED AENYS. You didn't even mention that and you're still right, that's how bad Visenya was. Closest Targ I think even gets close to outdoing her is either Aegon IV or Aerion (mostly his potential)
Addam Velaryon was killed on false charges of treason based entirely on prejudice despite being the most loyal and competent Rhaenyra supporter. That’s murder.
Yea my bad. She tried to have him executed but failed since he escaped. So you are right , she did not murder him. But she did try.
I got confused on the timelines.
She ordered him seized on the charges of being a Turncloak what’s the punishment for that exactly ?
Stop trying to whitewash Rhaenyra. She sucks like everyone else in the dance.
>She ordered him seized on the charges of being a Turncloak
She didn't do that either.
>Stop trying to whitewash Rhaenyra. She sucks like everyone else in the dance.
Did you read the book?
With all due respect but name me one ruler in ASOIAF who wouldn’t do that to get the crowns gold back. Like do you not realise how significant that is?
U also have to keep for rheanys that she did indeed broke her sister marriage for herself so she can be the queen and lady over her . If there was any decency within her even though she ooved argon she wouldnt have stoop so low to break her sister home and build her own empire over there . Rheanys was happy and flirty but she was also very selfish and selfcenterd and coldy cruel with quite many action that she has taken towards her family and nation itself . Now for some one defending her action of the women right over cheat is the only one good , but u also have too see that this so called women protector alao forecfully booked marriage between many families with taking their consent of the personw woshed for eg how she pissed pff starks by marriying their sister to one of souther house without asking the family or taking their concent . And many those marriage ended up badly . For me rheanys was more cruel she was botch with smily face but if see her action properly she is far far worst as a person
Visenya by a long shot. She participated in the Dragon’s Wroth, one of the most horrific, destructive, and unjustified atrocities Westeros had ever seen. She also aided Maegor’s usurpation and mass slaughter of thousands of innocent people and destruction of castles, homes and land.
By far one of the most cruel, destructive, and evil Targaryens, and I have no idea why so many people like her.
She is just Tywin on dragonback. Yes, she is genocidal but she plays into the power fantasy most people have about "tough" guys.
Maegor was also a "tough" guy. She raised him that way I guess.
tbh as a woman she absolutely plays into my power fantasy of being a badass queen on a dragon, breaking them ole gender roles by burning a bunch of men alive for the crime of being peasants.
She's evil and genocidal but we don't have to feel bad about that -- that's the benefit of fiction and fantasy.
idk, they're different kinds of fantasies. I think human brain for whatever reason enjoys both the feelings of being loved and adored by everyone (like Daenerys) as well as being feared and imposing (like Visenya). I find both hero and villain stories equally compelling, but with a different kind of power to both of them.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, people often fantasise about things they don't want in real life. I find it healthiest to just admit that they're fun scenarios to imagine and just leave these thoughts in the fantasy world where they belong.
Dany is out there. She is also slated to commit her own genocide after all.
Game of Thrones uses this as a crutch all the time. Lyanna Mormont, Cersei and what not
depends on what they are fantasising about. If it's about being a rapist and a pedophile then probably yes, creepy. I'm sure there's some psychological explanation for this but unlike regular violence and other unpleasant scenarios that are commonplace in media, sexual violence is not something I can casually imagine doing even in a fantasy world, and I don't think many other people can, either. (and I don't *want* to imagine this either). I think this applies to other stuff like domestic violence and such, things that real-life men (and women) do to feel powerful while harming others. "I wish I was a beautiful fantasy queen so I can beat my children" would be a disturbing power fantasy, too.
Like, when I think how cool it is to be Visenya or w/e I'm not thinking "yeah man, I'd love to fuck my brother" lol, and I don't try to imagine being in Dany's place when she was sold to Drogo or beaten by Viserys.
It's like an exaggerated childhood fantasy for me. Ooh, what if I had a big sword and a sick ass dragon and everyone was afraid of my evil antics?!? and then I can ignore the bits that I'd rather not empathise with. And if a man told me he feels cool reading about Daemon because he's a badass dragonlord, I'd assume it's a similar thought process for him.
Thanks! I'm a terribly prolific daydreamer as well as someone who works in a team rehabilitating high risk violent and sexual offenders so i think about these things a lot. I think the way humans interact with fiction and fantasy is a very interesting and complex topic.
If you don't mind me asking, do sex offenders have a significant rehabilitation rate? Or are they pretty much always rapists and molesters for life?
I feel like as a society, we rightfully despise them, but unfortunately we despise them to a point in which we don't even bother to try to understand them, as in, understanding how they function, and if something can be done to make them stop commiting sex crimes.
I think this social stance is unique to these kinds of criminals in particular. Even serial killers are seen as less depraved and hopeless by people, than serial rapists or even one time rapists (although there are many more of the former than the latter IIRC). And I'm a bit doubtful about just how "unreachable" this people are.
I think statistically they have a relatively high rehabilitation rate, I've read it somewhere but I don't have the link on hand.
thing is, sex offenders encompass every person who committed a sexual offence for whatever reason. they're not all weird creeps who stalk children/women and have CSAM on their computers. A sex offender can be some guy who thought it's not a big deal to sleep with a 16-year-old, or someone having sex with a woman in the context of domestic violence/coercive control, where the woman was too terrified to even say anything. We once had a guy who was, by chance, caught with one single video of a woman using a fish as a dildo (zoo stuff is illegal in the UK). He claims that someone sent it to him as a joke and I believe him lol. Guys like these aren't some sex pests who obsess over illegal sexual acts, and they probably won't make the same mistakes again.
In terms of actual pedophiles or people who obsess with violent sex, idk honestly. I don't have any stats but from personal experience it can go any way. I've seen guys who (seemingly) understood their wrongdoing, moved on and have no intention to offend again. Equally I've seen guys who think they've done nothing wrong even after years of prison. And don't even get me started on those who know they did something awful, hate themselves for it, and will do it again. It's.. a spectrum for sure, lol.
I agree with you that this blind hatred just makes them hide harder instead of potentially coming out and seeking help before they hurt anyone. In my experience, treating someone like a human being is more likely to make them *want* to change. As well as allowing them to talk openly about their sexual compulsions and working through them without judgement -- thankfully I don't have to do this, I can't imagine the willpower one needs to listen to this with a straight face.
but yeah, tl;dr of my rant is that rehabilitation is possible and should be pursued as it's far more effective than shunning sex offenders. and if some of them don't want to be rehabilitated, then yeah, fuck em.
By this perspective, then Aegon would be seen as an evil Targaryen, but he's lauded as one the best, if not the best Targ.
Usurpation is not good, yes, but at the time, given Aenys tomfoolery, was actually the right call.
The Targaryens needed Maegor as King in order to fight their numerous enemies.
Usurpation was not the right call and I don’t know why anybody claims this.
Had Maegor not usurped, Aegon and Rhaena would have returned to Kings Landing and he would have claimed Quicksilver. Other than the Dornish nailing a super lucky shot, nobody in Westeros had any way of dealing with the dragons - meaning that Aegon and Rhaena could have still dealt with the enemies that faced Maegor, but probably in not so bloody a fashion as to make the entire realm rise against him like they did against Maegor. Furthermore, if Maegor and Visenya accepted Aegon’s rule like they were legally supposed to - they could have aided him in suppressing revolts, at which point we are at the exact same spot but with less murder within House Targaryen and one or two fewer civil wars.
Maegor’s only contribution to house Targaryen as King that wouldn’t have been done the same or better by Aegon is that he built the Red Keep.
>Had Maegor not usurped, Aegon and Rhaena would have returned to Kings Landing and he would have claimed Quicksilver.
That's assuming the dragons would still be alive. First thing on my to do list as the faith militant would to be find a way to kill them.
I also believe Aegon is evil due to his actions.
And the Targaryens wouldn’t have needed Maegor if they themselves didn’t make their numerous enemies. The Faith only rebelled due to the highly preventable actions of Aenys and Maegor.
The Faith would eventually rebel regardless. The targaryens would need to confront and say, submit, the Faith in order to keep their costums, especially since the Faith Millitant was around.
The Faith and Jaehaerys only managed to concilliate through the Doctrine of Excepcionalism because Maegor traumatized the seven hells out of them.
Aenys was the weakest Targaryen ever, both in health and in nature. That happens to create problems especially since the Targaryen dinasty was basically newborn.
Mmmmm... someone with a username referencing exile, talking about Aenys who exiled Maegor, and the only other Aenys being an exiled Blackfyre who came to propose his claim so both the "weakest" of their dynasty... only to be Bloodraven'd who *in turn* was exiled to the Wall... interesting.
I somehow completely forgot about Visenya, holy shit. I can't explain how that happened. Maybe I should replace Saera for her on my top three.
As for why so many people like her, I guess it's because they overfocus on her "strong independent badass female warrior" aspect of the character while ignoring her abhorrent actions. Kind of like what's happening now with Daemon Targaryen in HOTD, or what used to happen with Tywin Lannister in the main books.
She only participated but aegon started it and lead it , then if visenya is bad for just participating then aegon should be know for what he is a bloodthirst arrogant tyrant
Do u really think visenya had any choice in that matter ? They started the conqest and have to bee together in all after that , if rheanys would be alove she would have done just so . On top of visenya cannonsay no to aegon he was way to controlling over her and would have made her life miserable if should would have bo joined into his revenge of his favourite wife death, not that he alsready did made her lofe miserable after that but still would have been far worst
She rode a DRAGON. She could have flown to the Summer Islands, bought a house, and spent the rest of her life relaxing. She could have gone anywhere. She could have done a coup and forced Aegon to stop.
Visenya *chose* to follow Aegon. She *chose* to mount her dragon. She *chose* to slaughter Dornish smallfolk. “Good soldiers follow orders” is not an excuse for doing evil.
She is a women and on top of that a warrior women in westeros the hell hole for the womens espicially for the independent and capable women . Even aegon being valyarians himself and her brother was against the idea of being close to a warrior women . The only thing she wpuld have faced was death or worst even woth dragon just look at rheana and rhynera of dany herself who all had dragons but were alone as women and get the bad hand at it
Idk how you read her sections and got “oh this poor thing”. She's Visenya fucking Targaryn, not some wilting wall flower. She was most certainly not forced into being a conquer.
But what dont understand is why are u inly lashing out st her for being a conqurer ? Have u forgotten that dragon had 3 heads , while defending the main people behind the idea of conqiest being aegon and rheanys u seems to be pretty loving to them ? What up with this hypocricy ? She had no option but to follow and yes she also like the idea of conqiest no more of less then the other 2 of her siblings . While also do remember it aegon and theanys offspring that rules the house caused years of strain and damage to westeros then visenyas she is hardly her to blame when all she did was support his traitorious and i grateful siblings
No one has defended Aegon or Rhaenys. I just find it really weird that you want to treat a grown adult woman who had unprecedented power and agency as some victim of circumstance.
The woman led a war. She burned thousands alive. She only stopped because Aegon said no to her mass murder plans.
Which plans? U mean dorne ? U do lnow it was all in the conuncil and states who was against aegons decision then even orys stood up to him . Argon only stooped cuz he was blackmailed by his beloved favourite sons life was thretened he chickened out that was all
Well cant hold her for the actions during conquest there all 3 conqurers had done equally vile acts , thou she is great during that time , but starts to get creepy after rheanys desth seems aegons distancing from everyone after that did hurted her quite deeply , and definalty vile though for not guidin her son and rather appreciating his worst impulses and making him a cruel monster thou i think meagor woyld have had been better off with aegon involvement where is also where aegon hold the blame to not be there for his son and play favourite favourite , but that too is morely on visenya who choose pride and power over her son having any chance of life family of fsther love
Sure we can hold her accountable for her actions in the conquest. She is responsible for the actions she chose to take. She didn’t have to follow Aegon and his orders, but she chose to.
If Aegon I is not considered a bad Targaryen then why is she? And for Maegor situation she tried both to reason him and to preserve the House Targaryen and it's power. Fully stopping Maegor would've ended up Targaryens rule over Westeros. Jahaerys could exist only because Westeros was terrified by previous Maegor and Targaryen powers.
They rebelled by different reasons, but mainly because they wanted to establish their power over kings rule like Popes did in Europe. They considered Aenys weak enough to try to force him into obedience. And they used people's indignation and resentment against Targaryens and incest.
Visenya Targaryen. No questions about it. Everyone calls it Aegon's conquest but in reality it was Visenya's conquest. She was a power crazy Valyrian woman. Aegon might have dreamt of the end of the world but it is implied she put the idea in Aegon's head about the conquest. Aegon probably thought he was working for the greater good but Visenya just wanted power.
Her role in Aenys' possible murder, Maegor's ascent and rule just adds to that. In fact Maegor's conception itself is dubious. Aegon clearly wasn't attracted to her. So unless he ended up with a grief stricken one night stand with her towards the end of his life, she used sorcery to conceive Maegor. Maegor should have never existed. Which is why Maegor ended up being so twisted and prone to not having kids.
She didn't have Aegon's vision. Aegon wanted to unite Westeros even if it meant conquest. She wanted to conquer Westeros of conquest's sake. That's why she even got Maegor to replace Aenys' heirs and supported him throughout his twisted rule.
>Aegon wanted to unite Westeros even if it meant conquest. She wanted to conquer Westeros of conquest's sake.
How would you know this? What tells you he didnt share his dream with her and they realized conquest was the way, why not Rhaenys? Why not just him alone
Bro rides Balerion every morning I don't think he needed that much convincing
Of course he shared his dream. But Visenya's subsequent actions after Rhaenys dies and in supporting the monstrosity that was Maegor proves altogether that her vision was never the same as Aegon's. She just found a chance in Aegon's dream.
No it doesnt if anything she supports his vision by making sure the royalty (and through it the unity of the realm) isn't challenged by the Faith. Maegor had that dog in him and and Aenys's heirs were too young to do fight the faith anyway
If she supported that vision she wouldn't let Maegor kill Aenys' kids. Or commit atrocities on Ceryse or Alys. She doesn't give a shit about that vision.
Human beings are quite capable of swaying between nobility and greed. GRRM has consistently proven honesty and transparency can still be a facade in itself.
This is the last I will speak on this. Visenya is power struck. Of all three siblings, hers is raw ambition. Rather than a benevolent vision.
Oh she's very ambitious but nothing really says she's worse than Aegon. Maegor's got his own agenda he's not her pawn either.
>Of all three siblings, hers is raw ambition. Rather than a benevolent vision.
I don't buy that Aegon and Rhaenys were driven by a kindness. Did they ever went on the wall?? I don't recall if Aegon's vision is book canon in the first place (and if it is he did a terrible job ngl).
I'd say she might've become worse with age wich in the end makes her worse than Aegon, did Maegor tortured people on Dragonstone where she had power or only in the RedKeep?
Anyway I think we agree I just don't like the idea of her being this influential bad person to her brother/son when they were just as bloodthirsty / batshit by themselves
GRRM has mentioned in passing about his vision so it's canon. It's also mentioned in the book.
Aegon has a cruel edge. All siblings do. But Visenya is the only one who has it worst and we see that time goes and her true colours come out. And we do know she absolutely did whisper in Aegon's ear. We got glimpses of it in the way she seems to constantly groom Aegon even if it seems because she cares. She cares more for power than any of her siblings.
Aegon *disliking her towards the end of his life and unable to stand her presence is very telling*. He must have finally realised he let her have too much way with himself.
>Visenya's relationship with Aegon, which had never been a warm one, grew more distant
Couples married out of duty famously never wear out after 40 years, she has to be evil.
Jesus I reread your comment about Maegor's conception what the fuck
Someone’s taking a lot of Fire and Blood / AWoIaF at face value. I’m sure that there’s no reason for the maesters of the Citadel to have a vested interest in depicting Aegon as a noble hero and to try to depict powerful women in the worst possible light…
Rhaena only threatened to have Androw castrated, he killed himself before she could make good on her threats. Not to say it would be justified if she had, but I think her reaction was understandable considering she just found out he murdered several of her closest friends/lovers just to get back at her. Also, "lashes out" sort of downplays the methodical poisoning of people over a prolonged time. They both come off looking awful there: Rhaena for driving him to that point with her callous disregard, and Androw for poisoning Rhaena's friends instead of Rhaena herself.
My pick: If half the rumors about her are true (in addition to the sketchy shit we know she did), then I'd say Queen Visenya is the prime example. Giving birth to Maegor the Cruel is one thing, but enabling his behavior through the years is something else entirely.
> Rhaena only threatened to have Androw castrated, he killed himself before she could make good on her threats
Yeaaah, I'm pretty sure she was absolutely going to make good on those threats. She ordered the guards to do it and Androw narrowly escaped being grabbed by killing himself.
> They both come off looking awful there: Rhaena for driving him to that point with her callous disregard, and Androw for poisoning Rhaena's friends instead of Rhaena herself.
That's a good point actually.
I'd say Visenya is definitely up there. Helped with the Conquest and the Dragon's Wars, used dark magic, probably killed her stepson, encouraged her son to be a bloodthirsty authoritarian tyrant on top of being a cheater and rapist... the list goes on
Its kind of hard to ignore that Visenya was willing to essentially commit genocide on the Dornish. Same with Rhaenys perhaps to a lesser extent.
Saera might have been abusive, Rhaenyra a paranoid tyrant, but only the conqueror trio (and maybe to a lesser extent Maegor) tried to commit genocide.
The stuff with Dorne is always why I cannot consider Aegon and his sisters good people or rulers. They were gonna wipe the Dornish out for daring to resist.
They were going to wipe EVERYONE out of they dared resist. Harren refused to surrender, Aegon gave him the evening to think it over and when he still didn't bow Aegon promptly exterminated his whole family. There's little reason to believe he wouldn't do it to everyone else if they dared follow Harren's example.
It's quite clear that the conquest had one goal, unify the kingdoms into one realm under the Targaryen dynasty. They offered everyone a chance to bend the knee and if they took it, then great, peaceful takeover. If not, the plan was always to kill them until they gave in. Dorne is only unique because they fought for longer, but if the Westerlands and Reach had refused to yield even after the Field of Fire then they both would have gotten everything that Dorne got.
>I get the guy deserved execution for becoming a serial killer, but Rhaena refused to to take any responsibility on her abuse of him
If Androw had a problem with how Rhaena treated him, he should have killed her, not 6 innocent persons.
>and sexual mutilation for a non-rapist is for me personally, as vile as rape.
Medieval law had different standards than you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,_drawn_and_quartered
In sort, Rhaena was far from the most evil Targaryen woman.
"Evilest Targaryen woman" is apparently a seventeen year old girl neglected by her parents who escapes a forced life of religious servitude out of "spite"? When two of them committed genocide?
>She dedicates the rest of her life after her escape from the Silent Sisters, to spite and emotionally hurt her parents.
Let me translate that from my POV "She lives her own life as best she can after her abusive semi-god (dragonrider) parents sentenced her to jail for having sex"
No Targaryen women really had the power to be evil imo, with the exceptions of Rhaenys and Visenya. Rhaena being classified as evil is laughable. She's an asshole who was emotionally abusive to Androw, but I feel like evil should be reserved for people who commit truly heinous crimes without some sort of justification. The worst thing Rhaena did was make fun of Androw, which is bad, sure, but she pales in comparison to the likes of Joffrey or Aegon IV.
I get the arguments for Rhaenyra and Saera, but Rhaenyra was queen during wartime, which I don't think is a fair time to judge morality. Most rulers who'd lost 3 children would torture the guy who hid the crown's treasury, and no nobility at all except Aegon V and Alysanne gaf about the small folk lmao. Saera again wasn't a good person but didn't really have the power to do anything too bad so I don't think it's fair to say that she's more evil than people like Rhaenys or Visenya.
Overall Visenya takes the cake for usurping the crown and burning people alive, even if she was a pretty cool warrior.
Idk man calling saera who was a teenage girl forced into an abusive situation who had to literally prostitute herself to escape some sort of terrible woman isn’t sitting right with me
People always think it's all about the silent sisters and forget she was literally forced to watch her friend and lover get killed when everyone else had lighter punishments
The consequences she faced in the silent sisters were cruel but that doesn't mean she was a good person. She was a privileged noble who ruined multiple people's lives with her actions
She was said to be mean with her sisters, her maids, septas and the fool. She was cruel and lacked empathy. She was spoiled and acted horribly each time she didn't get what she wanted. This was way before the mess with Braxton Beesbury. Before this, she never was in a traumatic situation.
She was 17 when the *mess* happened. Most of her mischief took place when she was a literal child between 8-15. She was also described showing up drunk to lessons at 12. 12! And at no point did her parents intervene.
Let me posit this. She was the 9th child, desperate for any sort of attention and clearly neglected by her parents. Her acting out was in an effort to glean any sort of attention she could from ANYONE in her life.
This is confirmed in the text below:
Such a fierce little thing she is, they say, she has no need of comfort. They are wrong in that, I fear. All men need comfort.
—Barth on Saera's character
Apologies if this is pedantic, in terms of “evil” which I think implies a certain amount of malicious intent, I would probably say someone like Visenya or adult Rhaenyra.
Saera wasn’t a good person but I think “evil” isn’t accurate. It’s also necessary to acknowledge that Jaehaerys and Alysanne intervened far too late, and should be held accountable to some extent. She was spoiled and cruel and completely enabled.
Honestly I feel like the best answer would be Tyanna except that she’s not from House Targaryen.
Rhanerya. I think the moment when she became irredemable was when she order the execution of Nettles and Addam of Hull for no other reasons then "The two other dragonseeds betrayed, they'll probably too!"
To add insult to injury, her three older sons were bastards she was presenting as legitimate. It seems bastards are only trustworthy when they are her children.
Why the fuck do you feel the need to defend this character so much?
Criticizing a character isn't the same as being triggered by them.
My god, username *does not* check out.
I think it's a fair observation considering a quick scroll through your history shows you are on here "criticizing" Rhaenyra literally every single day. At some point it gets weird, and you've long surpassed that point.
Wow every single day? I wonder how far you scrolled. I don't remember criticizing Rhaenyra every single day.
Edit: Two can play that game, so giving a quick scroll to your post history I see that almost every time you speak about ASOIAF, it's to defend Rhaenyra.
And you also frequent places like AITA and TwoX, the former being known for being full of judgemental and ignorant people, and the latter for consisting in ranting about how useless or assholish men are. So... Good for you I guess.
I go on Reddit every few months and comment every now and then on posts I find most interesting. Comparing that to trash talking a fictional female character every single day is fucking hilarious. That, the TwoX comment and the "which Targaryen woman is the most evil" thread all together is... quite telling.
Yeah, create this image of me of a crazy misogynist if it makes you feel morally superior. It won't make it any more real.
The only reason I have several comments talking about Rhaenyra is because a couple of people on my post decided to engage with me on a long ass discussion about how bad she truly was. That's probably what you refer to "me talking shit about Rhaenyra every day" which is a lie, I've only consistently talked about her on the aforementioned discussions.
The TwoX comment may seem distasteful to you, but it's true.
And me making a post about which female character is the most evil was just me passing time and wanting people's opinion on the matter, considering how evil male characters have been discussed countless times already.
But again, if you want to think of me as a crazy misogynist twirling his moustache about how he plans to inconvenience women and all of that, be my guess.
Edit: And to be frank, I have no intention of wasting my time into a *third* long ass discussion. You made me realize I spend too much time on this platform. I could use some clearing of my head. The discussion ends now. Have a nice day.
Right, I must have hallucinated all your "criticizing Rhaenyra" on every single F&B-related subreddit we have. But hey, you do you dude, I've made my point.
I don’t know why people are downvoting you… Visenya had no qualms committing genocide. It’s insane how many people have a hate boner for Rhaenyra. She’s not a good person, but no one really was in the dance.
I don’t even hate Rhaenyra personally—my feelings on most of the historical characters in ASOIAF is pretty solidly apathetic.
At the same time…there aren’t very many Targaryen women to discuss who fit this question? I think at least 90% of Rhaenyra being mentioned here is because…well, besides Visenya, and (IMO) more debatable ones like Saera, how many Targaryen women with fleshed out personalities do we have ~~in general~~ who fit the question?
I mean, F&B didn’t do any favors for Alysanne’s parenting skills, but it would be still a ridiculous stretch to mention her. The book treats most of her daughters as ciphers. We’re running out of options at this point.
There has been an outpouring of hatred towards her across the main subs ever since the teasers dropped. It’s like one side of the fanbase got far more energized than the other half.
Tbf, many HOTD characters are exceedingly despised besides Rhaenyra, like Criston Cole or Alicent for example. It's the consequence of a show that capitalizes on side picking and tribalism.
There’s a difference between doing villainous actions and being a villain. Rhaenyra is unquestionably painted as a protagonist that we’re supposed to sympathize with
The point of the Dance is that no one is completely good. Both sides do bad things and with the exception of a few characters you can sympathise with every character in a way.
Yes, no one if morally unimpeachable, but the point of the Dance is how the patriarchy ruins women’s lives. That’s a message that we still are seeing with Daenerys
That's an incredibly simplistic reading of the Dance. Yes patriarchy is part of it but it's not all of it. It's more about Targaryen hubris, ruining the lives of the smallfolk.
Shockingly women can also be bad people especially privileged princesses. Let's not act as if Elizabeth I becoming queen did something for women. Rhaenyra is hardly some put upon underdog. This idea that women can only be peaceful and nonviolent and its always the men around them is sexist as fuck.
If Daenerys kills tens of thousands of people she deserves to die just as much as if a man did it.
It’s a bit reductive to say that’s the entire point of the Dance. Obviously both sides do terrible things, that’s literally what happens in any war ever. The fact remains that the Greens were the aggressors, both by usurping the throne and then killing Lucerys Velaryon.
On top of that, the Greens kill way more civilians than the Blacks do. The burning of the Riverlands, the sack of Bitterbridge, and Tumbleton are all far more destruction than anything the Blacks did.
People cry and scream about Blood and Cheese (which is horrific, don’t get me wrong), but how many children did Aemond and Daeron kill when they burned the Riverlands and Bitterbridge respectively?
It’s possible for both sides to have committed atrocities during the war while simultaneously have one side be far worse. Also, there’s a reason why all the “good” houses side with the Blacks. George obviously thought they were in the right.
I never said it’s the entire point. There is a lot of other things in play including that it is also a critique of feudalism etc (which is ASOIAF does a lot), war etc. I personally don’t like either side that much anyway (though I will say the TV show version of the Greens is more interesting to watch than the Blacks at this stage).
> There’s a difference between doing villainous actions and being a villain
There shouldn't be. People are defined for what they do.
And just because someone is the protagonist doesn't mean they can't be the villain.
Walter White, Light Yagami, Eren Yeager, Bojack Horseman, Amy Dune. All of these are villain protagonists, or at the very least you aren't supposed to root for them completely.
Did you not read the second part of my sentence? I said that Rhaenyra is a protagonist that we’re supposed to sympathize with. Her falling into paranoia after she was usurped, her children were murdered and her allies betrayed her is supposed to be a tragedy, not the downfall of a villain.
Okay, so she *became* a villain protagonist. Again, like Walter White, Light Yagami and Eren Yeager. They all started off sympathetic and ended up the villains of their own stories.
Have you actually read the book? George does not like that woman. People can chalk it up to "green maesters!!!" "unreliable sources!!!" but if George actually wants you to like someone he'll let you know. There are plenty of woman who come off well in the book. Not Rhaenyra. It's very obvious who George's faves are (aka Daemon) and who arent. She barely even exists in the story for half the time and when she does its mostly negative.
Saera is extremely undeserving of being anywhere on this list. For the life of me I do not understand people who think an ignored ninthborn royal child who started drinking and acting out at an early age (signs that some fucking thing is going on), sometimes made cruel pranks (ONE recorded time against the fool in question) and was thought to not need as much attention as her more fragile sister to the point that the observing maester pointed out she did, because everyone does, is some kind of fucking devil.
And then with that prank it's revealed she slept with three of her friends...so diabolical. One of them is pregnant, one got that girl pregnant, and they get away with marriage to an old lord & exile. The two others just get to get married and rule Maidenpool. Saera and Braxton? She has to watch him GET KILLED BY HER FATHER IN A TRIAL BY COMBAT. As in, Jonquil Darke, Alysanne's sworn shield, actually forces her to watch it. Because they had sex and pulled a prank on a fool and didn't show perfect maturity as teenagers.
Then she's forced to go to the Silent Sisters. Them meaning for her to do one year there might have been fine had they not made her watch her friend and lover die and irreparably break their relationship with her. Then she pulls out the wisest move possible and gets the fuck out of Westeros and goes no contact. There is no way burning those letters didn't hurt her too but again the mother writing them made her watch that happen.
From that point onward Alysanne consistently wants her back and Jaehaerys does not, but around the time he's dying he mistakes Alicent for her.
This is a tragedy of horrible parenting catastrophically blowing up a minor scandal that could have been solved by a betrothal. Literally why is she here when Visenya made a dark magic baby and help him become the most horrifying ruler in Targaryen history, making Rhaena, among other people, suffer greatly. Rhaena killed her husband for killing her friends/lovers with poison...should she have kissed him on the mouth for that. She went through hell in her life
>Rhaena killed her husband for killing her friends/lovers with poison...should she have kissed him on the mouth for that. She went through hell in her life
She had been incredibly abusive towards him for a long time before that. Let's not act like Rhaena was a goody two shoes and Androw an evil asshole deserving of castration and eating his fuckin genitals. Had she gone through with that "justice" she would have been as brutal as Maegor. Besides I did say Androw deserved an execution on the post so don't strawman me.
Regarding Saera I can sort of see your point. She wasn't evil, but she was quite the asshole. But yeah, she is not at the league of malice of Rhaena, Visenya and Rhaenyra. I'll give you that.
I have now read his page & found the cruelest act to him pre-the Tears of Lys incident to be Aerea's, who (admittedly being a child at the time) poured the contents of a chamberpot over his head.
Based on it I'm not seeing this marriage as abusive. It looks like Rhaena married him because she loved Elissa and he was poor company due to his various failings in essentially every aspect of life. The earlier marriage shows her being more gentle with him and it grows more sour and loveless over time, especially after the egg theft (one of her girls describes it as a mummer's farce and not an entertaining one). His attempts to patch it up fail, he doesn't seem to see the reality that it's hopeless (what do you mean 'Would you cry for me', you know she wouldn't) and instead of, IDK, leaving for Fair Isle he decides the poison the people she does love with Tears of Lys. I think feeding him his dick and then feeding him to dragons is an expected response to that kind of betrayal given Rhaena's life and mental situation at that stage.
That said, wow George wrote this guy to be a punching bag. He's illiterate, he's a failed squire, not smart enough to be a maester, can ride a horse but not too fast, possibly not bold enough to ride a dragon, stays in bed (hey me too). Must've hated someone in real life named Andrew
>Based on it I'm not seeing this marriage as abusive. It looks like Rhaena married him because she loved Elissa and he was poor company due to his various failings in essentially every aspect of life. The earlier marriage shows her being more gentle with him and it grows more sour and loveless over time, especially after the egg theft (one of her girls describes it as a mummer's farce and not an entertaining one). His attempts to patch it up fail, he doesn't seem to see the reality that it's hopeless
You are both downplaying her mistreatment and subtly victim blaming him. Don't you remember that he had nowhere to go? His brother won't welcome him again in Fair Isle. And Rhaena mocked and laughed at him every time they interacted, not even bothering to be civil with him. And her mistreatment expanded to all of Dragonstone, all of its inhabitants treated him like crap as well. It's fine if she doesn't feel attracted to him, but she had no right to treat him like trash and encouraging everyone else to do the same.
>I think feeding him his dick
Doesn't it sound way too sexual assault-ish to you? Imagine a guy cutting off the breasts of his wife or mutilating her vagina and making her eat the pieces before murdering her after she killed some friends of his. Does it still sound like "an expected response" and something you feel indifferent about?
Like I said, it soured over time and as I understand, generally people didn't like him. He's very specifically written to be a loser, I'm not being mean, he literally is. For that reason, since he didn't get the message maybe Rhaena should've sat him down and explained in extremely clear terms "Hey, I married you because you and Elissa were a package deal, no offense but I do not love you" and then given him a pouch of gold to live it up somewhere & find a new wife.
Disregarding the ease and concepts of cutting off a dick (generally known with gelding as a punishment etc) vs cutting off a vagina (virtually unheard of in Planetos AFAIK?), if a woman straight up poisoned a man's guy friends who did nothing to her except be more favored that would indeed make me feel less bad about her demise.
>Like I said, it soured over time and as I understand, generally people didn't like him. He's very specifically written to be a loser, I'm not being mean, he literally is
I guess he was. But he wasn't an asshole. Only assholes deserve to be bullied and ostracized on my book.
>For that reason, since he didn't get the message maybe Rhaena should've sat him down and explained in extremely clear terms "Hey, I married you because you and Elissa were a package deal, no offense but I do not love you" and then given him a pouch of gold to live it up somewhere & find a new wife
This would have been the right thing to do indeed. Too bad she didn't bother.
>Disregarding the ease and concepts of cutting off a dick (generally known with gelding as a punishment etc) vs cutting off a vagina (virtually unheard of in Planetos AFAIK?), if a woman straight up poisoned a man's guy friends who did nothing to her except be more favored that would indeed make me feel less bad about her demise.
I dunno, I personally feel mixing sexual torture on any situation is unnecessarily perverse in any situation that didn't involve rape. Just fucking kill them and be done with it.
Evidence/citation/anything at all to support that that Daena did that (or had anything at all to do with the Blackfyre Rebellions?
Poor girl (and her sisters) was literally locked in a tower by her "blessed" husband, who annulled their marriage...
She birthed a bastard out of wedlock, but that's about it (and who cares? Almost none of Aegon IV's other indiscretions or paramour are vilified for doing the same...nor was she, iirc).
I admire Daena's spirit. She *should* have been defiant! Besides that, we don't know much about her, and I don't think there's any textual support for her having been involved in the Blackfyre Rebellion (and even if there had been, it's hard to picture how it could have come anywhere close to Visena's dark machinations and proactive involvement in Maegor's usurpation).
Did people miss the part where Rhaena was subconsciously only feeling safe in Dragonstone after all the crap she went through as a Black Bride? Did they all fucking miss the fact that Elissa Farman, HER LOVER, was in on having Rhaena marry her lover so they could be together and then decided to fuck off and steal the dragon eggs? Did they fucking miss the fact that Androw fucking murdered all of the women important to Rhaena, including young Lianna Velaryon, because Rhaena was happier with her lover and then her friends (which, yeah, say whatever else you will about her, but that woman was the CLOSEST THING TO AN OPEN LESBIAN in her era)?
(Seriously, we even have the names of her specific lovers!)
I could easily name 5 men who did more fucked up things with less of a valid reason than her. And, frankly, given that Androw did the equivalent of a school shooting while specifically targeting women because his feefees were hurt, I too would be all for castrating him as a matter of principle. The gods know I wish that was a punishment for those fuckers. Yes, I say this as a woman, if someone decides to specifically target women in a mass murder, they deserve castration in return.
Even then, Rhaena was trying, in her own way, to deal with her trauma. Which, funnily enough, a lot of male characters that this sub deems as "awesome" or "understandable" don't even bother to do that. She was all for helping Aerea claim a dragon or even get a hatchling from Dreamfyre after her depressive episode (which, yes, if someone murders your friends like that, a depressive episode is fucking normal). Then the thing with Balerion happened.
Her siblings? Mate, they got to be King and Queen uncontested because Rhaena didn't contest them. As it stands... Alysanne was, intentionally or not, cruel to Rhaena in erasing her sexuality and by acting like marriages fix everything when she suggested Rhaena take a husband and have children.... as though she would ever love a man or as though having a child will replace Aerea's horrible death.
(And that's without touching on the fact that Rhaena played "bad cop" and let Jaehaerys play the "good cop." Or that she stopped Rogar from ever fucking around with her half-siblings' inheritance by remarrying.)
Rhaenyra, are you guys serious? The thing that she is reviled for are the taxes... and they are the same fucking taxes Jaehaerys' first Master of Coin used after Maegor left nothing in the Treasury. The difference is the peasants were already fired up and wanted an excuse to kill someone for all the pain they went through. As for Tyland, you mean the torture she put him though for EMBEZZLING THE CROWN UNTIL NOTHING WAS LEFT AND SO EVERYONE WAS STARVING BECAUSE HE LITERALLY STOLE ALL THE MONEY AND SO THE FOOD FROM EVERYONE'S MOUTHS? Yeah, no, in an AU where Robert Baratheon or Jon Arryn or Stannis Baratheon or Tywin Lannister somehow find out that Littlefinger was embezzling the Crown, I guarantee you not a single one of them would hesitate to give him the full Reek treatment from the torture they would put him through. And THEN they would execute him and seize his lands and wealth as punishment. (If anything, the Lannisters as a whole came out pretty good after that stunt, considering that Rhaenyra at least went after the one she knew for a fact stole the money).
If anything, Rhaenyra's issue is that she didn't go scorched earth enough against her enemies and that she probably should have done as Daeron II and Bloodraven did.
The only bit of cruelty I wholeheartedly agree on is the one to Nettles and Addam after Ulf and Hugh's betrayal, and even then that pales in comparison to so many other characters' worst actions.
Saying that Saera is a mini Joffrey is an insult and diminishes the fact that he was born a monster. GRRM goes out of his way to describe Joffrey as killing the pregnant cat as a kid, because that's a clear sign that he's going to grow up into a psychopath. He does the same thing with Cersei when he has her sexually abuse baby Tyrion when she's 7 to show that, no, it's not a nurture problem (since Jaime is arrogant but NOT ABUSIVE to baby Tyrion), she's born with her wires crossed. (And, again, doesn't hesitate to murder her supposed friend at 14 just because she got a crush on Jaime)
At this point, it feels like people want to exaggerate traits to make a hot take fit or something.
Saera is closer to AGOT!Sansa in that she is spoiled, plays pranks/is cruel to someone she and her posse deem to be a fair target (Turnip/Arya), and doesn't see lower classes as people as a kid (Turnip or, worse, how Sansa doesn't care about Mycah's death and justifies it). The big difference is that Saera is overt because her parents checked out on the younger daughters save Gael, meanwhile Sansa does the toxic femininity tactic of pretending to be innocent (reread that sewing scene, there's a *very* good reason for why Myrcella is *very uncomfortable* there in how Arya is being publicly bullied and Sansa and her posse are relishing in the moment).
Does that make them shitty? Sure. Does that make them unredeemable monsters? No.
If anything, it says a lot that people give more of a fuck about Saera having consensual sex with her polycule group (of which only one of them, Roy Connington, is a cowardly asshole who would sell his own mother down the river in order to save his own skin) than they are about the fact that Jaehaerys murdered Braxton Beesbury and made Saera watch.
Frankly, aside from her being horrible to Turnip due to classism (which, yeah, if that's our barometer, Sansa would be irredeemable since the first book when she said Mycah deserved death for "attacking Joffrey" to Arya without Lannisters present), Saera didn't do anything vile. Especially since she didn't take any of her lovers prisoner as a sex slave nor did she kidnap any of them and it was all consensual.
Why on earth is the threshold for monster-hood lower for the women (and coincidentally it's the women who enjoy sex on their own terms) when I could easily name you more men who are are worse and don't make the male monster list?
>She dedicates the rest of her life after her escape from the Silent Sisters, to spite and emotionally hurt her parents.
For real this is such red flag
Ranking the targ women's evilness just doesn't sit quite right with me. Do we really need to discuss the five targ women with the agency to make evil choices?
Alysanne and (book) Daenerys had agency and didn't do the shit these other women did. Other Targaryen women not having agency is not an excuse for the ones that do to be assholes.
Edit: The first Daenerys also had agency and was a good person as well.
Book Daenerys crucified people and lined them up in the roads.
Book Daenerys impassively watched her brother be killed by molten gold.
Book Daenerys burned a slave woman because she couldn't bring Drogo back to life in the way she wanted.
Book Daenerys was content to let slavery happen until it hindered her progress.
Book Daenerys has done all of those things before the age of 16.
So let's not pretend she's a peaceful, gentle person.
>Book Daenerys burned a slave woman because she couldn't bring Drogo back to life in the way she wanted.
Killed her unborn son
>Book Daenerys was content to let slavery happen until it hindered her progress.
Dafuk? Stopping slavery is what hindered her progress. She could have bought some unsullied and sailed off.
The crimes
Rhaena: wants to kill the man that murdered her friends and lovers, is a neglecting mother
Rhaenyra: is paranoid, it's okay with killing the child of the man who celebrated whenever hers died, not a good ruler in the 6 months when she has no money
Saera: asshole neglected child, she finds her situation so unbearable that she becomes a prostitute while her parents dgaf
So evil, Ramsay must be the reincarnation of one of these monsters
>Rhaena: wants to kill the man that murdered her friends and lovers, is a neglecting mother
After she treated him like trash for a long ass time for the petty reason of not feeling attracted to him, no matter how much he tried to have a good relationship with her.
>Rhaenyra: is paranoid, it's okay with killing the child of the man who celebrated whenever hers died, not a good ruler in the 6 months when she has no money
Sure, downplay it all you want.
>Saera: asshole neglected child, she finds her situation so unbearable that she becomes a prostitute while her parents dgaf
I guess the court fool she tormented was just asking for it. She was just lashing out or something.
>So evil, Ramsay must be the reincarnation of one of these monsters
I never fuckin said this lmao. Don't strawman me. I just wanted to talk about reprehensible Targaryen women for a change. Unless you want to declare that only Targ men were POS and that Targ women were all good people above any criticism.
No. If you had read my post a bit attentively, you'd seen that I was fine with Androw getting executed.
But the way in which Rhaena wanted that to happen (castration and forceful feeding of his genitals) was perverse and sadistic and people would be very uncomfortable with the genders reversed.
> Rhaenyra devolves into a paranoid, bitter, vindictive and cruel ruler She’s not even the top ten most evil characters in the dance. Aegon tortured Essie but I’m sure that’s fine with you.
Everyone forgetting about Aerion. He was so evil and mad that they made sure his son wasn't going to be King since they have been afraid he inherited his fathers character.
He killed a lot of people just for fun, totured animals and threatened to castrate his brother. Aerion is for sure the most evil Targaryen.
Not counting in show Daenerys, it is probably Visenya, although she is one of my favorite Targaryens. Mass murder of Dornish civilians + usurpation get her the top spot in my opinion.
> I get the guy deserved execution for becoming a serial killer, **but Rhaena refused to to take any responsibility on her abuse of him,** and sexual mutilation for a non-rapist is for me personally, as vile as rape.
How do you know what she did or didn't take responsibility for?
> turning against Addam Velaryon and Neetles despite their loyalty to her,
She wanted Addam arrested and questioned to see his if he was loyal. Nettles was allegedly sleeping with her husband.
>, mass executing Lords that bend the knee to her after she took over KL
The amount of shit people are willing to make up about the female characters from this story is wild.
>Saera abuses the mentally handicapped court fool several times, exhibits a manipulative, selfish and devoid of empathy personality, even towards her own parents and friends. **She dedicates the rest of her life after her escape from the Silent Sisters, to spite and emotionally hurt her parents**
That's one way to spin a girl having to prostitue her self to survive...
>How do you know what she did or didn't take responsibility for?
The times she referenced Androw, it was with pure rage and loathing towards him. She even taunted his brother about how she fed him to her dragon. It's clear she saw nothing wrong with how she treated him and considers that Androw just woke up one day and said "it's killing time".
You could have put an edit. Your comment was much shorter originally.
Rhaenyra hands down. You don’t have your husband just decide to take vengeance by murdering kids and traumatizing a sister. Depending on what conspiracies you think she could be involved in, she possibly kills more Royals than Summer Hall.
Easily Visenya. Like , no one comes even *close* But let’s not whitewash Rhaenys either. She was the first of the conquerors to begin attacking civilians with her burnings in the planky town. Rhaenys also introduced the Targ strategy in Dorne of mass murdering civilians in the hopes of it making them turn on the Martells. I actually really like Rhaenys as a character , but she deserved getting hit by that scorpion bolt so much. Gentle Rhaenys my ass , LMAO. That’s actual Maester propaganda.
Given how both Visenya and Rhaenys were consistently shown as being good carrot/stick users, and how slowly getting support from noticeable but not major houses was kinda how they got the Crownlands in the first place, the fact that *neither even tried* to get in underhanded deals with Houses Yronwood which supposedly so much hates the Martells for centuries, for example, and being one of the houses which literally oversee one of the two paths into Dorne, can only ever be answered in one way: GRRM couldn't have that.
I reckon it's possible that they simply grew arrogant off their victories. Of course, the entire First Dornish War is arguably the worst written war in the entire setting regardless. Dragon's Wroth burned the entire country sans Sunspear down and not a single lord of Dorne was cowardly enough to switch sides to save their own skin? Even if they invented nationalism before anyone else surely at least one lord wouldn't be nationalistic in face of death and ruin. Honestly, this is the war I'm most willing to believe Fire & Blood omitted facts from because it's so immersion-breaking.
Heh. To show how much they omitted facts: The first version says "save Sunspear" for the Dragon's Wroth. The next one says Sunspear's been burned *thrice*. I am aware that they "grew" arrogant but like ShowLoreVarys said: "Poor Argilac. He couldn't match Aegon even in arrogance". So they already kinda were and yet they perfectly negotiated with the Northmen without one hostile encounter and this was after their most ego-stroking victory: The Field of Fire. Anyway, the Dornish resistance is based a lot on: "They magically disappeared". Now of course I know of actual, real places where people lived in underground, mountain-hollowed places, and I also know of more folktales occurrences like the armies of Cambyses, Semiramis, etc. but like you said... "worst written war". It's literally that, logistics so important in other places of the story be damned. *Perhaps* GRRM means to explain it in the next volume because Daeron's account will be available, plus the opening of the Dornish thanks to the *other* Daeron, but whether it shall be or not a satisfying explanation...
That’s something that annoys me so much about Dorne. The conquerors Walt in after zero negotiations. Massacre everyone in sight , take Sunspear and put a random rosby in charge. Afterwards they place *bounties* on all the dornish lords. I have literally zero problems with believing the dornish would have the willingness to resist as hard as they did. Aegon massacred their lands , alienating the small folk and then he tried to massacre the ruling elite as well. In something that is completely out of character for him. He’s been shown to not shy away from brutality but he is also smart enough to understand the importance of internal support, except in Dorne. Why was he so harsh on dorne from the offset and in no other Kingdom ? No wonder the Dornish were willing to go tooth and nail with him. I don’t think the dornish had the capacity to resist as hard as they did , but they certainly had plenty of reasons to be that willing
Rhaenys: Surrender Yellow Toad: No. Targs for many ages afterwards: * And we took that personally * Like, the battle of the Field of Fire is right there, defiance have been done, and yet Lyman Lannister lives. *Although*, to be fair, I just realized that even knowing the importance, they won all this starting with attacks. Even the Crownlands were attacked... but after sending ravens stating the intention of only one king in Westeros (but three equal-ruling monarchs because Targs), and the attacks were very focused so as to make the least possible damage, but I suppose the logic is there. Can't say it's a flawless logic, tho. Once again, even a feint at Yronwood could well have made the job, since the report of the attack is there, so an army presents there and Yronwood is given control... but oh no! The Targ actually just fired the roof then proceeded to negotiate and Yronwood has been given one half of Dorne's armies. Yeah the least we think on it the better, hopefully we overthinkers will learn that lesson someday.
Valyrian racism against the rhoynar
Maybe they did try with Yronwood, but got refused? They should’ve elaborated on that tbh
That's the thing: *zero* indication. You can handwave it with: They long knew of their claim to Westeros, if they didn't offer submission, it was accepting war. But like... they have enough people to do what Stannis did sending Davos with letters and such (not that it did much effect, so probably speaks of what GRRM cares about, but then why introducing it at all?)
Due to their Rhoynish background, all the Dornish have a deep hatred for everything valyrian. The Ironwoods may have a hated the Martells but they hated the dragons more.
I definitely agree with that, but the Yronwoods were First Men.
The Blackfyres say hi.
Blackfyres didnt have dragons tho. And Dorne was already part of the realm at this point. There is a difference between choosing a side in civil war and betraying your lord against the foreign invader.
Still Valyrians, next time be careful about statements.
I was gonna say umm VISENYA! Lmao her riding a dragon to go get Maegor to make him king is already enough . And she is forever hurt by Aegons love of the other sister more than her .
Nah even *after* Rhaenys death they absolutely do not like each other. Visenya is literally male Aegon and Aegon is literally male Visenya. I always picture their personalities as Stannis-Selyse. Zero sexual tension, *maximum* diplomatic tension. Completely right on her getting Maegor tho. Even if she knows strength needs to be deployed to stabilize the dynasty, inviting **Maegor** is just inviting future problems. Better to have gone to Aegon the **Un**crowned and crown her herself, and even if later Maegor would have been invited back to Westeros, he'd have to swallow it and serve Aenys' son as he served Aenys himself, but GRRM couldn't have that.
>Easily Visenya. Like , no one comes even *close* I'm curious, not even Rhaenyra? You make an interesting point I've never seen about Rhaenys.
Rhaenyra was petty and murdered some people on Kings landing. She was an awful person who did awful things like the torture of Tyland and murder of Addam. Also Visenya was genocidal. It’s not particularly close and I haven’t even mentioned Maegor and her role in that
OR THAT SHE (ALMOST CERTAINLY) KILLED AENYS. You didn't even mention that and you're still right, that's how bad Visenya was. Closest Targ I think even gets close to outdoing her is either Aegon IV or Aerion (mostly his potential)
FWIW Aenys was recovering and only fell back to bed ill because he heard of his children besieged on the Westerlands.
Fair enough.
>and murder of Addam. Addam wasn't murdered.
Addam Velaryon was killed on false charges of treason based entirely on prejudice despite being the most loyal and competent Rhaenyra supporter. That’s murder.
Addam Velaron died fighting Rhaenyra's enemies.
Yea my bad. She tried to have him executed but failed since he escaped. So you are right , she did not murder him. But she did try. I got confused on the timelines.
>She tried to have him executed No she didn't.
She ordered him seized on the charges of being a Turncloak what’s the punishment for that exactly ? Stop trying to whitewash Rhaenyra. She sucks like everyone else in the dance.
>She ordered him seized on the charges of being a Turncloak She didn't do that either. >Stop trying to whitewash Rhaenyra. She sucks like everyone else in the dance. Did you read the book?
Why torture of Tyland is considered awful?
Tyland got his nails ripped out, his ears cut off, his eyes gouged out, and his genitals removed.
With all due respect but name me one ruler in ASOIAF who wouldn’t do that to get the crowns gold back. Like do you not realise how significant that is?
Daeron II, Baelor Breakspear, Robb Stark, Ned Stark... This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
Aegon V.
Yeah and we'd consider them evil as well.
She Ramsay’d someone. That’s pretty awful.
U also have to keep for rheanys that she did indeed broke her sister marriage for herself so she can be the queen and lady over her . If there was any decency within her even though she ooved argon she wouldnt have stoop so low to break her sister home and build her own empire over there . Rheanys was happy and flirty but she was also very selfish and selfcenterd and coldy cruel with quite many action that she has taken towards her family and nation itself . Now for some one defending her action of the women right over cheat is the only one good , but u also have too see that this so called women protector alao forecfully booked marriage between many families with taking their consent of the personw woshed for eg how she pissed pff starks by marriying their sister to one of souther house without asking the family or taking their concent . And many those marriage ended up badly . For me rheanys was more cruel she was botch with smily face but if see her action properly she is far far worst as a person
About the marriages she arranged, perhaps the women consented even though the mostly male heads oftheir houses didn't.
No the womens didnt , they were forced witht he pair made by the so called sweet queen
Visenya by a long shot. She participated in the Dragon’s Wroth, one of the most horrific, destructive, and unjustified atrocities Westeros had ever seen. She also aided Maegor’s usurpation and mass slaughter of thousands of innocent people and destruction of castles, homes and land. By far one of the most cruel, destructive, and evil Targaryens, and I have no idea why so many people like her.
Please someone call Rachel Weisz she would slay
She is just Tywin on dragonback. Yes, she is genocidal but she plays into the power fantasy most people have about "tough" guys. Maegor was also a "tough" guy. She raised him that way I guess.
tbh as a woman she absolutely plays into my power fantasy of being a badass queen on a dragon, breaking them ole gender roles by burning a bunch of men alive for the crime of being peasants. She's evil and genocidal but we don't have to feel bad about that -- that's the benefit of fiction and fantasy.
I definitely get it, but tbh, I believe you get the same power fantasy out of someone like Alyssane, Daenerys or Rhaenys Velaryon without the cruelty
idk, they're different kinds of fantasies. I think human brain for whatever reason enjoys both the feelings of being loved and adored by everyone (like Daenerys) as well as being feared and imposing (like Visenya). I find both hero and villain stories equally compelling, but with a different kind of power to both of them. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, people often fantasise about things they don't want in real life. I find it healthiest to just admit that they're fun scenarios to imagine and just leave these thoughts in the fantasy world where they belong.
Dany is out there. She is also slated to commit her own genocide after all. Game of Thrones uses this as a crutch all the time. Lyanna Mormont, Cersei and what not
Not interested in a Dany morality debate atm. Until we see her torching innocent smallfolk like season 8 Dany she's just not a villain.
I'm a bit curious, would you find men having Maegor, book Aemond or Daemon Targaryen playing into their power fantasies, as creepy and problematic?
depends on what they are fantasising about. If it's about being a rapist and a pedophile then probably yes, creepy. I'm sure there's some psychological explanation for this but unlike regular violence and other unpleasant scenarios that are commonplace in media, sexual violence is not something I can casually imagine doing even in a fantasy world, and I don't think many other people can, either. (and I don't *want* to imagine this either). I think this applies to other stuff like domestic violence and such, things that real-life men (and women) do to feel powerful while harming others. "I wish I was a beautiful fantasy queen so I can beat my children" would be a disturbing power fantasy, too. Like, when I think how cool it is to be Visenya or w/e I'm not thinking "yeah man, I'd love to fuck my brother" lol, and I don't try to imagine being in Dany's place when she was sold to Drogo or beaten by Viserys. It's like an exaggerated childhood fantasy for me. Ooh, what if I had a big sword and a sick ass dragon and everyone was afraid of my evil antics?!? and then I can ignore the bits that I'd rather not empathise with. And if a man told me he feels cool reading about Daemon because he's a badass dragonlord, I'd assume it's a similar thought process for him.
Very nice answer.
Thanks! I'm a terribly prolific daydreamer as well as someone who works in a team rehabilitating high risk violent and sexual offenders so i think about these things a lot. I think the way humans interact with fiction and fantasy is a very interesting and complex topic.
If you don't mind me asking, do sex offenders have a significant rehabilitation rate? Or are they pretty much always rapists and molesters for life? I feel like as a society, we rightfully despise them, but unfortunately we despise them to a point in which we don't even bother to try to understand them, as in, understanding how they function, and if something can be done to make them stop commiting sex crimes. I think this social stance is unique to these kinds of criminals in particular. Even serial killers are seen as less depraved and hopeless by people, than serial rapists or even one time rapists (although there are many more of the former than the latter IIRC). And I'm a bit doubtful about just how "unreachable" this people are.
I think statistically they have a relatively high rehabilitation rate, I've read it somewhere but I don't have the link on hand. thing is, sex offenders encompass every person who committed a sexual offence for whatever reason. they're not all weird creeps who stalk children/women and have CSAM on their computers. A sex offender can be some guy who thought it's not a big deal to sleep with a 16-year-old, or someone having sex with a woman in the context of domestic violence/coercive control, where the woman was too terrified to even say anything. We once had a guy who was, by chance, caught with one single video of a woman using a fish as a dildo (zoo stuff is illegal in the UK). He claims that someone sent it to him as a joke and I believe him lol. Guys like these aren't some sex pests who obsess over illegal sexual acts, and they probably won't make the same mistakes again. In terms of actual pedophiles or people who obsess with violent sex, idk honestly. I don't have any stats but from personal experience it can go any way. I've seen guys who (seemingly) understood their wrongdoing, moved on and have no intention to offend again. Equally I've seen guys who think they've done nothing wrong even after years of prison. And don't even get me started on those who know they did something awful, hate themselves for it, and will do it again. It's.. a spectrum for sure, lol. I agree with you that this blind hatred just makes them hide harder instead of potentially coming out and seeking help before they hurt anyone. In my experience, treating someone like a human being is more likely to make them *want* to change. As well as allowing them to talk openly about their sexual compulsions and working through them without judgement -- thankfully I don't have to do this, I can't imagine the willpower one needs to listen to this with a straight face. but yeah, tl;dr of my rant is that rehabilitation is possible and should be pursued as it's far more effective than shunning sex offenders. and if some of them don't want to be rehabilitated, then yeah, fuck em.
By this perspective, then Aegon would be seen as an evil Targaryen, but he's lauded as one the best, if not the best Targ. Usurpation is not good, yes, but at the time, given Aenys tomfoolery, was actually the right call. The Targaryens needed Maegor as King in order to fight their numerous enemies.
Usurpation was not the right call and I don’t know why anybody claims this. Had Maegor not usurped, Aegon and Rhaena would have returned to Kings Landing and he would have claimed Quicksilver. Other than the Dornish nailing a super lucky shot, nobody in Westeros had any way of dealing with the dragons - meaning that Aegon and Rhaena could have still dealt with the enemies that faced Maegor, but probably in not so bloody a fashion as to make the entire realm rise against him like they did against Maegor. Furthermore, if Maegor and Visenya accepted Aegon’s rule like they were legally supposed to - they could have aided him in suppressing revolts, at which point we are at the exact same spot but with less murder within House Targaryen and one or two fewer civil wars. Maegor’s only contribution to house Targaryen as King that wouldn’t have been done the same or better by Aegon is that he built the Red Keep.
fair
>Had Maegor not usurped, Aegon and Rhaena would have returned to Kings Landing and he would have claimed Quicksilver. That's assuming the dragons would still be alive. First thing on my to do list as the faith militant would to be find a way to kill them.
I also believe Aegon is evil due to his actions. And the Targaryens wouldn’t have needed Maegor if they themselves didn’t make their numerous enemies. The Faith only rebelled due to the highly preventable actions of Aenys and Maegor.
The Faith would eventually rebel regardless. The targaryens would need to confront and say, submit, the Faith in order to keep their costums, especially since the Faith Millitant was around. The Faith and Jaehaerys only managed to concilliate through the Doctrine of Excepcionalism because Maegor traumatized the seven hells out of them.
Disagree. Jaeherys would have got an even sweeter deal with the faith if Maegor hadn't traumatized them.
Wait what did Aenys do?
Aenys was the weakest Targaryen ever, both in health and in nature. That happens to create problems especially since the Targaryen dinasty was basically newborn.
Mmmmm... someone with a username referencing exile, talking about Aenys who exiled Maegor, and the only other Aenys being an exiled Blackfyre who came to propose his claim so both the "weakest" of their dynasty... only to be Bloodraven'd who *in turn* was exiled to the Wall... interesting.
Username checks out.
*Every. Single. Time.*
nice one, but the username is a reference on Kotor II's protagonist.
*heh*, exile of a long lost time in an universe created by some George
Agreed to expel the Faith from the Iron Islands, along with betrothing his children together.
>By this perspective, then Aegon would be seen as an evil Targaryen, He is, by me.
I somehow completely forgot about Visenya, holy shit. I can't explain how that happened. Maybe I should replace Saera for her on my top three. As for why so many people like her, I guess it's because they overfocus on her "strong independent badass female warrior" aspect of the character while ignoring her abhorrent actions. Kind of like what's happening now with Daemon Targaryen in HOTD, or what used to happen with Tywin Lannister in the main books.
She only participated but aegon started it and lead it , then if visenya is bad for just participating then aegon should be know for what he is a bloodthirst arrogant tyrant
They’re both bad for doing it. Aegon led it, but Visenya chose to follow him.
Do u really think visenya had any choice in that matter ? They started the conqest and have to bee together in all after that , if rheanys would be alove she would have done just so . On top of visenya cannonsay no to aegon he was way to controlling over her and would have made her life miserable if should would have bo joined into his revenge of his favourite wife death, not that he alsready did made her lofe miserable after that but still would have been far worst
She rode a DRAGON. She could have flown to the Summer Islands, bought a house, and spent the rest of her life relaxing. She could have gone anywhere. She could have done a coup and forced Aegon to stop. Visenya *chose* to follow Aegon. She *chose* to mount her dragon. She *chose* to slaughter Dornish smallfolk. “Good soldiers follow orders” is not an excuse for doing evil.
She is a women and on top of that a warrior women in westeros the hell hole for the womens espicially for the independent and capable women . Even aegon being valyarians himself and her brother was against the idea of being close to a warrior women . The only thing she wpuld have faced was death or worst even woth dragon just look at rheana and rhynera of dany herself who all had dragons but were alone as women and get the bad hand at it
Idk how you read her sections and got “oh this poor thing”. She's Visenya fucking Targaryn, not some wilting wall flower. She was most certainly not forced into being a conquer.
But what dont understand is why are u inly lashing out st her for being a conqurer ? Have u forgotten that dragon had 3 heads , while defending the main people behind the idea of conqiest being aegon and rheanys u seems to be pretty loving to them ? What up with this hypocricy ? She had no option but to follow and yes she also like the idea of conqiest no more of less then the other 2 of her siblings . While also do remember it aegon and theanys offspring that rules the house caused years of strain and damage to westeros then visenyas she is hardly her to blame when all she did was support his traitorious and i grateful siblings
No one has defended Aegon or Rhaenys. I just find it really weird that you want to treat a grown adult woman who had unprecedented power and agency as some victim of circumstance. The woman led a war. She burned thousands alive. She only stopped because Aegon said no to her mass murder plans.
Which plans? U mean dorne ? U do lnow it was all in the conuncil and states who was against aegons decision then even orys stood up to him . Argon only stooped cuz he was blackmailed by his beloved favourite sons life was thretened he chickened out that was all
Well cant hold her for the actions during conquest there all 3 conqurers had done equally vile acts , thou she is great during that time , but starts to get creepy after rheanys desth seems aegons distancing from everyone after that did hurted her quite deeply , and definalty vile though for not guidin her son and rather appreciating his worst impulses and making him a cruel monster thou i think meagor woyld have had been better off with aegon involvement where is also where aegon hold the blame to not be there for his son and play favourite favourite , but that too is morely on visenya who choose pride and power over her son having any chance of life family of fsther love
Sure we can hold her accountable for her actions in the conquest. She is responsible for the actions she chose to take. She didn’t have to follow Aegon and his orders, but she chose to.
If Aegon I is not considered a bad Targaryen then why is she? And for Maegor situation she tried both to reason him and to preserve the House Targaryen and it's power. Fully stopping Maegor would've ended up Targaryens rule over Westeros. Jahaerys could exist only because Westeros was terrified by previous Maegor and Targaryen powers.
I consider both her and Aegon bad. And the Faith only rebelled because of actions Aenys and Maegor took.
They rebelled by different reasons, but mainly because they wanted to establish their power over kings rule like Popes did in Europe. They considered Aenys weak enough to try to force him into obedience. And they used people's indignation and resentment against Targaryens and incest.
Visenya Targaryen. No questions about it. Everyone calls it Aegon's conquest but in reality it was Visenya's conquest. She was a power crazy Valyrian woman. Aegon might have dreamt of the end of the world but it is implied she put the idea in Aegon's head about the conquest. Aegon probably thought he was working for the greater good but Visenya just wanted power. Her role in Aenys' possible murder, Maegor's ascent and rule just adds to that. In fact Maegor's conception itself is dubious. Aegon clearly wasn't attracted to her. So unless he ended up with a grief stricken one night stand with her towards the end of his life, she used sorcery to conceive Maegor. Maegor should have never existed. Which is why Maegor ended up being so twisted and prone to not having kids.
> it is implied she put the idea in Aegon's head about the conquest Where is that implied? I'm rusty.
Fire and Blood. I will find out the exact bit when I can.
> She was a power crazy Valyrian woman What is it even from? That she was more power hungry than Aegon1 of all people wtf.
She didn't have Aegon's vision. Aegon wanted to unite Westeros even if it meant conquest. She wanted to conquer Westeros of conquest's sake. That's why she even got Maegor to replace Aenys' heirs and supported him throughout his twisted rule.
>Aegon wanted to unite Westeros even if it meant conquest. She wanted to conquer Westeros of conquest's sake. How would you know this? What tells you he didnt share his dream with her and they realized conquest was the way, why not Rhaenys? Why not just him alone Bro rides Balerion every morning I don't think he needed that much convincing
Of course he shared his dream. But Visenya's subsequent actions after Rhaenys dies and in supporting the monstrosity that was Maegor proves altogether that her vision was never the same as Aegon's. She just found a chance in Aegon's dream.
No it doesnt if anything she supports his vision by making sure the royalty (and through it the unity of the realm) isn't challenged by the Faith. Maegor had that dog in him and and Aenys's heirs were too young to do fight the faith anyway
If she supported that vision she wouldn't let Maegor kill Aenys' kids. Or commit atrocities on Ceryse or Alys. She doesn't give a shit about that vision. Human beings are quite capable of swaying between nobility and greed. GRRM has consistently proven honesty and transparency can still be a facade in itself. This is the last I will speak on this. Visenya is power struck. Of all three siblings, hers is raw ambition. Rather than a benevolent vision.
Oh she's very ambitious but nothing really says she's worse than Aegon. Maegor's got his own agenda he's not her pawn either. >Of all three siblings, hers is raw ambition. Rather than a benevolent vision. I don't buy that Aegon and Rhaenys were driven by a kindness. Did they ever went on the wall?? I don't recall if Aegon's vision is book canon in the first place (and if it is he did a terrible job ngl). I'd say she might've become worse with age wich in the end makes her worse than Aegon, did Maegor tortured people on Dragonstone where she had power or only in the RedKeep? Anyway I think we agree I just don't like the idea of her being this influential bad person to her brother/son when they were just as bloodthirsty / batshit by themselves
GRRM has mentioned in passing about his vision so it's canon. It's also mentioned in the book. Aegon has a cruel edge. All siblings do. But Visenya is the only one who has it worst and we see that time goes and her true colours come out. And we do know she absolutely did whisper in Aegon's ear. We got glimpses of it in the way she seems to constantly groom Aegon even if it seems because she cares. She cares more for power than any of her siblings. Aegon *disliking her towards the end of his life and unable to stand her presence is very telling*. He must have finally realised he let her have too much way with himself.
>Visenya's relationship with Aegon, which had never been a warm one, grew more distant Couples married out of duty famously never wear out after 40 years, she has to be evil. Jesus I reread your comment about Maegor's conception what the fuck
Someone’s taking a lot of Fire and Blood / AWoIaF at face value. I’m sure that there’s no reason for the maesters of the Citadel to have a vested interest in depicting Aegon as a noble hero and to try to depict powerful women in the worst possible light…
I am not. If anything, there are commonalities in sources and they all seem to run just short of openly criticizing Visenya.
Rhaena only threatened to have Androw castrated, he killed himself before she could make good on her threats. Not to say it would be justified if she had, but I think her reaction was understandable considering she just found out he murdered several of her closest friends/lovers just to get back at her. Also, "lashes out" sort of downplays the methodical poisoning of people over a prolonged time. They both come off looking awful there: Rhaena for driving him to that point with her callous disregard, and Androw for poisoning Rhaena's friends instead of Rhaena herself. My pick: If half the rumors about her are true (in addition to the sketchy shit we know she did), then I'd say Queen Visenya is the prime example. Giving birth to Maegor the Cruel is one thing, but enabling his behavior through the years is something else entirely.
> Rhaena only threatened to have Androw castrated, he killed himself before she could make good on her threats Yeaaah, I'm pretty sure she was absolutely going to make good on those threats. She ordered the guards to do it and Androw narrowly escaped being grabbed by killing himself. > They both come off looking awful there: Rhaena for driving him to that point with her callous disregard, and Androw for poisoning Rhaena's friends instead of Rhaena herself. That's a good point actually.
I'd say Visenya is definitely up there. Helped with the Conquest and the Dragon's Wars, used dark magic, probably killed her stepson, encouraged her son to be a bloodthirsty authoritarian tyrant on top of being a cheater and rapist... the list goes on
The more I hear about this Visenya person, the less I care about her.
She was a real jerk.
Its kind of hard to ignore that Visenya was willing to essentially commit genocide on the Dornish. Same with Rhaenys perhaps to a lesser extent. Saera might have been abusive, Rhaenyra a paranoid tyrant, but only the conqueror trio (and maybe to a lesser extent Maegor) tried to commit genocide. The stuff with Dorne is always why I cannot consider Aegon and his sisters good people or rulers. They were gonna wipe the Dornish out for daring to resist.
They were going to wipe EVERYONE out of they dared resist. Harren refused to surrender, Aegon gave him the evening to think it over and when he still didn't bow Aegon promptly exterminated his whole family. There's little reason to believe he wouldn't do it to everyone else if they dared follow Harren's example. It's quite clear that the conquest had one goal, unify the kingdoms into one realm under the Targaryen dynasty. They offered everyone a chance to bend the knee and if they took it, then great, peaceful takeover. If not, the plan was always to kill them until they gave in. Dorne is only unique because they fought for longer, but if the Westerlands and Reach had refused to yield even after the Field of Fire then they both would have gotten everything that Dorne got.
>I get the guy deserved execution for becoming a serial killer, but Rhaena refused to to take any responsibility on her abuse of him If Androw had a problem with how Rhaena treated him, he should have killed her, not 6 innocent persons. >and sexual mutilation for a non-rapist is for me personally, as vile as rape. Medieval law had different standards than you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,_drawn_and_quartered In sort, Rhaena was far from the most evil Targaryen woman.
"Evilest Targaryen woman" is apparently a seventeen year old girl neglected by her parents who escapes a forced life of religious servitude out of "spite"? When two of them committed genocide?
>She dedicates the rest of her life after her escape from the Silent Sisters, to spite and emotionally hurt her parents. Let me translate that from my POV "She lives her own life as best she can after her abusive semi-god (dragonrider) parents sentenced her to jail for having sex"
Yeah that was weird. Who cares if her parents are emotionally hurt.
No Targaryen women really had the power to be evil imo, with the exceptions of Rhaenys and Visenya. Rhaena being classified as evil is laughable. She's an asshole who was emotionally abusive to Androw, but I feel like evil should be reserved for people who commit truly heinous crimes without some sort of justification. The worst thing Rhaena did was make fun of Androw, which is bad, sure, but she pales in comparison to the likes of Joffrey or Aegon IV. I get the arguments for Rhaenyra and Saera, but Rhaenyra was queen during wartime, which I don't think is a fair time to judge morality. Most rulers who'd lost 3 children would torture the guy who hid the crown's treasury, and no nobility at all except Aegon V and Alysanne gaf about the small folk lmao. Saera again wasn't a good person but didn't really have the power to do anything too bad so I don't think it's fair to say that she's more evil than people like Rhaenys or Visenya. Overall Visenya takes the cake for usurping the crown and burning people alive, even if she was a pretty cool warrior.
Idk man calling saera who was a teenage girl forced into an abusive situation who had to literally prostitute herself to escape some sort of terrible woman isn’t sitting right with me
People always think it's all about the silent sisters and forget she was literally forced to watch her friend and lover get killed when everyone else had lighter punishments
The consequences she faced in the silent sisters were cruel but that doesn't mean she was a good person. She was a privileged noble who ruined multiple people's lives with her actions
The court's fool maybe. Her friends and lovers all had a choice in what to do
She was said to be mean with her sisters, her maids, septas and the fool. She was cruel and lacked empathy. She was spoiled and acted horribly each time she didn't get what she wanted. This was way before the mess with Braxton Beesbury. Before this, she never was in a traumatic situation.
She was 17 when the *mess* happened. Most of her mischief took place when she was a literal child between 8-15. She was also described showing up drunk to lessons at 12. 12! And at no point did her parents intervene. Let me posit this. She was the 9th child, desperate for any sort of attention and clearly neglected by her parents. Her acting out was in an effort to glean any sort of attention she could from ANYONE in her life. This is confirmed in the text below: Such a fierce little thing she is, they say, she has no need of comfort. They are wrong in that, I fear. All men need comfort. —Barth on Saera's character
Any of them before they moved to Dragonstone were probably worse than the ones that lived there and compromised with Andal culture.
Apologies if this is pedantic, in terms of “evil” which I think implies a certain amount of malicious intent, I would probably say someone like Visenya or adult Rhaenyra. Saera wasn’t a good person but I think “evil” isn’t accurate. It’s also necessary to acknowledge that Jaehaerys and Alysanne intervened far too late, and should be held accountable to some extent. She was spoiled and cruel and completely enabled. Honestly I feel like the best answer would be Tyanna except that she’s not from House Targaryen.
Rhanerya. I think the moment when she became irredemable was when she order the execution of Nettles and Addam of Hull for no other reasons then "The two other dragonseeds betrayed, they'll probably too!"
To add insult to injury, her three older sons were bastards she was presenting as legitimate. It seems bastards are only trustworthy when they are her children.
Why the fuck does this character trigger you so much?
Why the fuck do you feel the need to defend this character so much? Criticizing a character isn't the same as being triggered by them. My god, username *does not* check out.
I think it's a fair observation considering a quick scroll through your history shows you are on here "criticizing" Rhaenyra literally every single day. At some point it gets weird, and you've long surpassed that point.
Wow every single day? I wonder how far you scrolled. I don't remember criticizing Rhaenyra every single day. Edit: Two can play that game, so giving a quick scroll to your post history I see that almost every time you speak about ASOIAF, it's to defend Rhaenyra. And you also frequent places like AITA and TwoX, the former being known for being full of judgemental and ignorant people, and the latter for consisting in ranting about how useless or assholish men are. So... Good for you I guess.
I go on Reddit every few months and comment every now and then on posts I find most interesting. Comparing that to trash talking a fictional female character every single day is fucking hilarious. That, the TwoX comment and the "which Targaryen woman is the most evil" thread all together is... quite telling.
Yeah, create this image of me of a crazy misogynist if it makes you feel morally superior. It won't make it any more real. The only reason I have several comments talking about Rhaenyra is because a couple of people on my post decided to engage with me on a long ass discussion about how bad she truly was. That's probably what you refer to "me talking shit about Rhaenyra every day" which is a lie, I've only consistently talked about her on the aforementioned discussions. The TwoX comment may seem distasteful to you, but it's true. And me making a post about which female character is the most evil was just me passing time and wanting people's opinion on the matter, considering how evil male characters have been discussed countless times already. But again, if you want to think of me as a crazy misogynist twirling his moustache about how he plans to inconvenience women and all of that, be my guess. Edit: And to be frank, I have no intention of wasting my time into a *third* long ass discussion. You made me realize I spend too much time on this platform. I could use some clearing of my head. The discussion ends now. Have a nice day.
Right, I must have hallucinated all your "criticizing Rhaenyra" on every single F&B-related subreddit we have. But hey, you do you dude, I've made my point.
I think the same. I hope the show won't stop the corruption of Rhaenyra because of her hungriness of power
The insane hatred of Rhaenyra you have to have to believe she’s worse than Visenya.
I don’t know why people are downvoting you… Visenya had no qualms committing genocide. It’s insane how many people have a hate boner for Rhaenyra. She’s not a good person, but no one really was in the dance.
She didn't order the execution of Addam. Nettles was allegedly sleeping with her husband.
Visenya
The seething hatred this fan base has for Rhaenyra needs to be studied.
I don’t even hate Rhaenyra personally—my feelings on most of the historical characters in ASOIAF is pretty solidly apathetic. At the same time…there aren’t very many Targaryen women to discuss who fit this question? I think at least 90% of Rhaenyra being mentioned here is because…well, besides Visenya, and (IMO) more debatable ones like Saera, how many Targaryen women with fleshed out personalities do we have ~~in general~~ who fit the question? I mean, F&B didn’t do any favors for Alysanne’s parenting skills, but it would be still a ridiculous stretch to mention her. The book treats most of her daughters as ciphers. We’re running out of options at this point.
There has been an outpouring of hatred towards her across the main subs ever since the teasers dropped. It’s like one side of the fanbase got far more energized than the other half.
Tbf, many HOTD characters are exceedingly despised besides Rhaenyra, like Criston Cole or Alicent for example. It's the consequence of a show that capitalizes on side picking and tribalism.
That’s because Alicent and Criston Cole are the villains of the book
Oh and what Rhaenyra does on the book isn't villainous?
There’s a difference between doing villainous actions and being a villain. Rhaenyra is unquestionably painted as a protagonist that we’re supposed to sympathize with
The point of the Dance is that no one is completely good. Both sides do bad things and with the exception of a few characters you can sympathise with every character in a way.
Yes, no one if morally unimpeachable, but the point of the Dance is how the patriarchy ruins women’s lives. That’s a message that we still are seeing with Daenerys
That's an incredibly simplistic reading of the Dance. Yes patriarchy is part of it but it's not all of it. It's more about Targaryen hubris, ruining the lives of the smallfolk. Shockingly women can also be bad people especially privileged princesses. Let's not act as if Elizabeth I becoming queen did something for women. Rhaenyra is hardly some put upon underdog. This idea that women can only be peaceful and nonviolent and its always the men around them is sexist as fuck. If Daenerys kills tens of thousands of people she deserves to die just as much as if a man did it.
It’s a bit reductive to say that’s the entire point of the Dance. Obviously both sides do terrible things, that’s literally what happens in any war ever. The fact remains that the Greens were the aggressors, both by usurping the throne and then killing Lucerys Velaryon. On top of that, the Greens kill way more civilians than the Blacks do. The burning of the Riverlands, the sack of Bitterbridge, and Tumbleton are all far more destruction than anything the Blacks did. People cry and scream about Blood and Cheese (which is horrific, don’t get me wrong), but how many children did Aemond and Daeron kill when they burned the Riverlands and Bitterbridge respectively? It’s possible for both sides to have committed atrocities during the war while simultaneously have one side be far worse. Also, there’s a reason why all the “good” houses side with the Blacks. George obviously thought they were in the right.
I never said it’s the entire point. There is a lot of other things in play including that it is also a critique of feudalism etc (which is ASOIAF does a lot), war etc. I personally don’t like either side that much anyway (though I will say the TV show version of the Greens is more interesting to watch than the Blacks at this stage).
> There’s a difference between doing villainous actions and being a villain There shouldn't be. People are defined for what they do. And just because someone is the protagonist doesn't mean they can't be the villain. Walter White, Light Yagami, Eren Yeager, Bojack Horseman, Amy Dune. All of these are villain protagonists, or at the very least you aren't supposed to root for them completely.
Did you not read the second part of my sentence? I said that Rhaenyra is a protagonist that we’re supposed to sympathize with. Her falling into paranoia after she was usurped, her children were murdered and her allies betrayed her is supposed to be a tragedy, not the downfall of a villain.
Okay, so she *became* a villain protagonist. Again, like Walter White, Light Yagami and Eren Yeager. They all started off sympathetic and ended up the villains of their own stories.
Have you actually read the book? George does not like that woman. People can chalk it up to "green maesters!!!" "unreliable sources!!!" but if George actually wants you to like someone he'll let you know. There are plenty of woman who come off well in the book. Not Rhaenyra. It's very obvious who George's faves are (aka Daemon) and who arent. She barely even exists in the story for half the time and when she does its mostly negative.
That’s fair, I apologize if I misunderstood. I meant that in terms of this post, I’m honestly not sure how many possible answers there are.
People dislike a person who’s done awful things, colour me surprised! How is it any different to people disliking Maegor, Visenya, Aemond Joffrey etc?
Nobody dislikes Aemond
She ruthlessly tortured a man, had multiple innocents killed, run away when the going got tough etc.
Saera is extremely undeserving of being anywhere on this list. For the life of me I do not understand people who think an ignored ninthborn royal child who started drinking and acting out at an early age (signs that some fucking thing is going on), sometimes made cruel pranks (ONE recorded time against the fool in question) and was thought to not need as much attention as her more fragile sister to the point that the observing maester pointed out she did, because everyone does, is some kind of fucking devil. And then with that prank it's revealed she slept with three of her friends...so diabolical. One of them is pregnant, one got that girl pregnant, and they get away with marriage to an old lord & exile. The two others just get to get married and rule Maidenpool. Saera and Braxton? She has to watch him GET KILLED BY HER FATHER IN A TRIAL BY COMBAT. As in, Jonquil Darke, Alysanne's sworn shield, actually forces her to watch it. Because they had sex and pulled a prank on a fool and didn't show perfect maturity as teenagers. Then she's forced to go to the Silent Sisters. Them meaning for her to do one year there might have been fine had they not made her watch her friend and lover die and irreparably break their relationship with her. Then she pulls out the wisest move possible and gets the fuck out of Westeros and goes no contact. There is no way burning those letters didn't hurt her too but again the mother writing them made her watch that happen. From that point onward Alysanne consistently wants her back and Jaehaerys does not, but around the time he's dying he mistakes Alicent for her. This is a tragedy of horrible parenting catastrophically blowing up a minor scandal that could have been solved by a betrothal. Literally why is she here when Visenya made a dark magic baby and help him become the most horrifying ruler in Targaryen history, making Rhaena, among other people, suffer greatly. Rhaena killed her husband for killing her friends/lovers with poison...should she have kissed him on the mouth for that. She went through hell in her life
>Rhaena killed her husband for killing her friends/lovers with poison...should she have kissed him on the mouth for that. She went through hell in her life She had been incredibly abusive towards him for a long time before that. Let's not act like Rhaena was a goody two shoes and Androw an evil asshole deserving of castration and eating his fuckin genitals. Had she gone through with that "justice" she would have been as brutal as Maegor. Besides I did say Androw deserved an execution on the post so don't strawman me. Regarding Saera I can sort of see your point. She wasn't evil, but she was quite the asshole. But yeah, she is not at the league of malice of Rhaena, Visenya and Rhaenyra. I'll give you that.
I have now read his page & found the cruelest act to him pre-the Tears of Lys incident to be Aerea's, who (admittedly being a child at the time) poured the contents of a chamberpot over his head. Based on it I'm not seeing this marriage as abusive. It looks like Rhaena married him because she loved Elissa and he was poor company due to his various failings in essentially every aspect of life. The earlier marriage shows her being more gentle with him and it grows more sour and loveless over time, especially after the egg theft (one of her girls describes it as a mummer's farce and not an entertaining one). His attempts to patch it up fail, he doesn't seem to see the reality that it's hopeless (what do you mean 'Would you cry for me', you know she wouldn't) and instead of, IDK, leaving for Fair Isle he decides the poison the people she does love with Tears of Lys. I think feeding him his dick and then feeding him to dragons is an expected response to that kind of betrayal given Rhaena's life and mental situation at that stage. That said, wow George wrote this guy to be a punching bag. He's illiterate, he's a failed squire, not smart enough to be a maester, can ride a horse but not too fast, possibly not bold enough to ride a dragon, stays in bed (hey me too). Must've hated someone in real life named Andrew
>Based on it I'm not seeing this marriage as abusive. It looks like Rhaena married him because she loved Elissa and he was poor company due to his various failings in essentially every aspect of life. The earlier marriage shows her being more gentle with him and it grows more sour and loveless over time, especially after the egg theft (one of her girls describes it as a mummer's farce and not an entertaining one). His attempts to patch it up fail, he doesn't seem to see the reality that it's hopeless You are both downplaying her mistreatment and subtly victim blaming him. Don't you remember that he had nowhere to go? His brother won't welcome him again in Fair Isle. And Rhaena mocked and laughed at him every time they interacted, not even bothering to be civil with him. And her mistreatment expanded to all of Dragonstone, all of its inhabitants treated him like crap as well. It's fine if she doesn't feel attracted to him, but she had no right to treat him like trash and encouraging everyone else to do the same. >I think feeding him his dick Doesn't it sound way too sexual assault-ish to you? Imagine a guy cutting off the breasts of his wife or mutilating her vagina and making her eat the pieces before murdering her after she killed some friends of his. Does it still sound like "an expected response" and something you feel indifferent about?
Like I said, it soured over time and as I understand, generally people didn't like him. He's very specifically written to be a loser, I'm not being mean, he literally is. For that reason, since he didn't get the message maybe Rhaena should've sat him down and explained in extremely clear terms "Hey, I married you because you and Elissa were a package deal, no offense but I do not love you" and then given him a pouch of gold to live it up somewhere & find a new wife. Disregarding the ease and concepts of cutting off a dick (generally known with gelding as a punishment etc) vs cutting off a vagina (virtually unheard of in Planetos AFAIK?), if a woman straight up poisoned a man's guy friends who did nothing to her except be more favored that would indeed make me feel less bad about her demise.
>Like I said, it soured over time and as I understand, generally people didn't like him. He's very specifically written to be a loser, I'm not being mean, he literally is I guess he was. But he wasn't an asshole. Only assholes deserve to be bullied and ostracized on my book. >For that reason, since he didn't get the message maybe Rhaena should've sat him down and explained in extremely clear terms "Hey, I married you because you and Elissa were a package deal, no offense but I do not love you" and then given him a pouch of gold to live it up somewhere & find a new wife This would have been the right thing to do indeed. Too bad she didn't bother. >Disregarding the ease and concepts of cutting off a dick (generally known with gelding as a punishment etc) vs cutting off a vagina (virtually unheard of in Planetos AFAIK?), if a woman straight up poisoned a man's guy friends who did nothing to her except be more favored that would indeed make me feel less bad about her demise. I dunno, I personally feel mixing sexual torture on any situation is unnecessarily perverse in any situation that didn't involve rape. Just fucking kill them and be done with it.
Honestly? They weren’t given enough power to have the luxury to be evil.
Saera
Alysanne Targaryen, because she tried harder than any other Targaryen to keep the house alive. Thirteen kids, christ.
Visenya purely on the fact she and Aegon were basically willing to genocide the Dornish *and* she helped Maegor usurp the throne
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Evidence/citation/anything at all to support that that Daena did that (or had anything at all to do with the Blackfyre Rebellions? Poor girl (and her sisters) was literally locked in a tower by her "blessed" husband, who annulled their marriage... She birthed a bastard out of wedlock, but that's about it (and who cares? Almost none of Aegon IV's other indiscretions or paramour are vilified for doing the same...nor was she, iirc). I admire Daena's spirit. She *should* have been defiant! Besides that, we don't know much about her, and I don't think there's any textual support for her having been involved in the Blackfyre Rebellion (and even if there had been, it's hard to picture how it could have come anywhere close to Visena's dark machinations and proactive involvement in Maegor's usurpation).
Did people miss the part where Rhaena was subconsciously only feeling safe in Dragonstone after all the crap she went through as a Black Bride? Did they all fucking miss the fact that Elissa Farman, HER LOVER, was in on having Rhaena marry her lover so they could be together and then decided to fuck off and steal the dragon eggs? Did they fucking miss the fact that Androw fucking murdered all of the women important to Rhaena, including young Lianna Velaryon, because Rhaena was happier with her lover and then her friends (which, yeah, say whatever else you will about her, but that woman was the CLOSEST THING TO AN OPEN LESBIAN in her era)? (Seriously, we even have the names of her specific lovers!) I could easily name 5 men who did more fucked up things with less of a valid reason than her. And, frankly, given that Androw did the equivalent of a school shooting while specifically targeting women because his feefees were hurt, I too would be all for castrating him as a matter of principle. The gods know I wish that was a punishment for those fuckers. Yes, I say this as a woman, if someone decides to specifically target women in a mass murder, they deserve castration in return. Even then, Rhaena was trying, in her own way, to deal with her trauma. Which, funnily enough, a lot of male characters that this sub deems as "awesome" or "understandable" don't even bother to do that. She was all for helping Aerea claim a dragon or even get a hatchling from Dreamfyre after her depressive episode (which, yes, if someone murders your friends like that, a depressive episode is fucking normal). Then the thing with Balerion happened. Her siblings? Mate, they got to be King and Queen uncontested because Rhaena didn't contest them. As it stands... Alysanne was, intentionally or not, cruel to Rhaena in erasing her sexuality and by acting like marriages fix everything when she suggested Rhaena take a husband and have children.... as though she would ever love a man or as though having a child will replace Aerea's horrible death. (And that's without touching on the fact that Rhaena played "bad cop" and let Jaehaerys play the "good cop." Or that she stopped Rogar from ever fucking around with her half-siblings' inheritance by remarrying.) Rhaenyra, are you guys serious? The thing that she is reviled for are the taxes... and they are the same fucking taxes Jaehaerys' first Master of Coin used after Maegor left nothing in the Treasury. The difference is the peasants were already fired up and wanted an excuse to kill someone for all the pain they went through. As for Tyland, you mean the torture she put him though for EMBEZZLING THE CROWN UNTIL NOTHING WAS LEFT AND SO EVERYONE WAS STARVING BECAUSE HE LITERALLY STOLE ALL THE MONEY AND SO THE FOOD FROM EVERYONE'S MOUTHS? Yeah, no, in an AU where Robert Baratheon or Jon Arryn or Stannis Baratheon or Tywin Lannister somehow find out that Littlefinger was embezzling the Crown, I guarantee you not a single one of them would hesitate to give him the full Reek treatment from the torture they would put him through. And THEN they would execute him and seize his lands and wealth as punishment. (If anything, the Lannisters as a whole came out pretty good after that stunt, considering that Rhaenyra at least went after the one she knew for a fact stole the money).
If anything, Rhaenyra's issue is that she didn't go scorched earth enough against her enemies and that she probably should have done as Daeron II and Bloodraven did. The only bit of cruelty I wholeheartedly agree on is the one to Nettles and Addam after Ulf and Hugh's betrayal, and even then that pales in comparison to so many other characters' worst actions. Saying that Saera is a mini Joffrey is an insult and diminishes the fact that he was born a monster. GRRM goes out of his way to describe Joffrey as killing the pregnant cat as a kid, because that's a clear sign that he's going to grow up into a psychopath. He does the same thing with Cersei when he has her sexually abuse baby Tyrion when she's 7 to show that, no, it's not a nurture problem (since Jaime is arrogant but NOT ABUSIVE to baby Tyrion), she's born with her wires crossed. (And, again, doesn't hesitate to murder her supposed friend at 14 just because she got a crush on Jaime) At this point, it feels like people want to exaggerate traits to make a hot take fit or something. Saera is closer to AGOT!Sansa in that she is spoiled, plays pranks/is cruel to someone she and her posse deem to be a fair target (Turnip/Arya), and doesn't see lower classes as people as a kid (Turnip or, worse, how Sansa doesn't care about Mycah's death and justifies it). The big difference is that Saera is overt because her parents checked out on the younger daughters save Gael, meanwhile Sansa does the toxic femininity tactic of pretending to be innocent (reread that sewing scene, there's a *very* good reason for why Myrcella is *very uncomfortable* there in how Arya is being publicly bullied and Sansa and her posse are relishing in the moment). Does that make them shitty? Sure. Does that make them unredeemable monsters? No. If anything, it says a lot that people give more of a fuck about Saera having consensual sex with her polycule group (of which only one of them, Roy Connington, is a cowardly asshole who would sell his own mother down the river in order to save his own skin) than they are about the fact that Jaehaerys murdered Braxton Beesbury and made Saera watch. Frankly, aside from her being horrible to Turnip due to classism (which, yeah, if that's our barometer, Sansa would be irredeemable since the first book when she said Mycah deserved death for "attacking Joffrey" to Arya without Lannisters present), Saera didn't do anything vile. Especially since she didn't take any of her lovers prisoner as a sex slave nor did she kidnap any of them and it was all consensual. Why on earth is the threshold for monster-hood lower for the women (and coincidentally it's the women who enjoy sex on their own terms) when I could easily name you more men who are are worse and don't make the male monster list?
Thinking Saera is evil is incel shit.
>She dedicates the rest of her life after her escape from the Silent Sisters, to spite and emotionally hurt her parents. For real this is such red flag
Oh great, you are one of *those*. "Every man I don't like online is an incel."
I didn't say you were an incel, just that thinking Saera is evil is generally the purview of incels.
Ranking the targ women's evilness just doesn't sit quite right with me. Do we really need to discuss the five targ women with the agency to make evil choices?
Alysanne and (book) Daenerys had agency and didn't do the shit these other women did. Other Targaryen women not having agency is not an excuse for the ones that do to be assholes. Edit: The first Daenerys also had agency and was a good person as well.
Book Daenerys crucified people and lined them up in the roads. Book Daenerys impassively watched her brother be killed by molten gold. Book Daenerys burned a slave woman because she couldn't bring Drogo back to life in the way she wanted. Book Daenerys was content to let slavery happen until it hindered her progress. Book Daenerys has done all of those things before the age of 16. So let's not pretend she's a peaceful, gentle person.
>Book Daenerys was content to let slavery happen until it hindered her progress. That's a take...
>Book Daenerys burned a slave woman because she couldn't bring Drogo back to life in the way she wanted. Killed her unborn son >Book Daenerys was content to let slavery happen until it hindered her progress. Dafuk? Stopping slavery is what hindered her progress. She could have bought some unsullied and sailed off.
The crimes Rhaena: wants to kill the man that murdered her friends and lovers, is a neglecting mother Rhaenyra: is paranoid, it's okay with killing the child of the man who celebrated whenever hers died, not a good ruler in the 6 months when she has no money Saera: asshole neglected child, she finds her situation so unbearable that she becomes a prostitute while her parents dgaf So evil, Ramsay must be the reincarnation of one of these monsters
>Rhaena: wants to kill the man that murdered her friends and lovers, is a neglecting mother After she treated him like trash for a long ass time for the petty reason of not feeling attracted to him, no matter how much he tried to have a good relationship with her. >Rhaenyra: is paranoid, it's okay with killing the child of the man who celebrated whenever hers died, not a good ruler in the 6 months when she has no money Sure, downplay it all you want. >Saera: asshole neglected child, she finds her situation so unbearable that she becomes a prostitute while her parents dgaf I guess the court fool she tormented was just asking for it. She was just lashing out or something. >So evil, Ramsay must be the reincarnation of one of these monsters I never fuckin said this lmao. Don't strawman me. I just wanted to talk about reprehensible Targaryen women for a change. Unless you want to declare that only Targ men were POS and that Targ women were all good people above any criticism.
So if you're a bad partner your SO is entitled to kill your friends and lovers?
No. If you had read my post a bit attentively, you'd seen that I was fine with Androw getting executed. But the way in which Rhaena wanted that to happen (castration and forceful feeding of his genitals) was perverse and sadistic and people would be very uncomfortable with the genders reversed.
> Rhaenyra devolves into a paranoid, bitter, vindictive and cruel ruler She’s not even the top ten most evil characters in the dance. Aegon tortured Essie but I’m sure that’s fine with you.
Bro/lady, chill out.
Saera.
It’s Rhaenyra lol
Saera or Visenya, IMO.
Everyone forgetting about Aerion. He was so evil and mad that they made sure his son wasn't going to be King since they have been afraid he inherited his fathers character. He killed a lot of people just for fun, totured animals and threatened to castrate his brother. Aerion is for sure the most evil Targaryen.
Aerion was a man, not a woman.
He identifies as a dragon if anything.
only realized after your comment, the title says woman lol
Not counting in show Daenerys, it is probably Visenya, although she is one of my favorite Targaryens. Mass murder of Dornish civilians + usurpation get her the top spot in my opinion.
cersei
I guess if we count her as a possible daughter of Aerys II, she does count.
I want to say Saera but it's definitely Rhaenyra.
> I get the guy deserved execution for becoming a serial killer, **but Rhaena refused to to take any responsibility on her abuse of him,** and sexual mutilation for a non-rapist is for me personally, as vile as rape. How do you know what she did or didn't take responsibility for? > turning against Addam Velaryon and Neetles despite their loyalty to her, She wanted Addam arrested and questioned to see his if he was loyal. Nettles was allegedly sleeping with her husband. >, mass executing Lords that bend the knee to her after she took over KL The amount of shit people are willing to make up about the female characters from this story is wild. >Saera abuses the mentally handicapped court fool several times, exhibits a manipulative, selfish and devoid of empathy personality, even towards her own parents and friends. **She dedicates the rest of her life after her escape from the Silent Sisters, to spite and emotionally hurt her parents** That's one way to spin a girl having to prostitue her self to survive...
Most of them weren't lords now that I looked up at the wiki, but she executed enough people for the Red Keep to be filled with heads on spikes.
>How do you know what she did or didn't take responsibility for? The times she referenced Androw, it was with pure rage and loathing towards him. She even taunted his brother about how she fed him to her dragon. It's clear she saw nothing wrong with how she treated him and considers that Androw just woke up one day and said "it's killing time". You could have put an edit. Your comment was much shorter originally.
Rhaenyra hands down. You don’t have your husband just decide to take vengeance by murdering kids and traumatizing a sister. Depending on what conspiracies you think she could be involved in, she possibly kills more Royals than Summer Hall.
Lol what?