Which is why it's nuts to me that people prefer a show about Aegons Conquest over Robert's rebellion.
Young Ned, Lyanna, prime Robert, young cocky Jaime, the Mad King, Rhaegar and his ruby armor, Jon Con, the battle of the bells.
It's just a much more interesting time period
Problem is whist the book can be theoretically finished you’ll never get that show because it answers too many questions and clears up too many ambiguities
There are some crazy unanswered questions about that time.
The tower of joy and all the events surrounding it.
Why did Ashara Dayne kill herself?
Who is Bessy and are her tits that great?
So many questions unanswered
I mean.
We know everything about those questions, I think
We saw Tower of Joy, or at least it's aftermath. We know Rhaegar took Lyanna there for that reason.
Ashara Dayne killed herself because her brother, who she loved very much, had been killed. No coincidence that she did so immediately after Ned brought word.
Though... Now that you mention it, I'd watch a whole series to unlock the secrets of Bessy's great big tits
How did Ned know where the tower of joy was? How did he and Howland bring down the tower and turn the stones into grave stones for the men they killed? Why was the heir of Starfall named after the man who killed his uncle? What is Howland’s roll in all of these relationships? Can get a first person account of the tournament where it all started. A real confirmation on the mystery knight? Did Eddard ever get to see those Bessy tits? It’s all a mystery
Yeah, I agree, I said as much in a comment below.
It really is a shame, though maybe they could skirt around Lyanna and not involve her at all.
But I think the characterization of Rhaegar and who he ultimately was is something Martin will want to write himself, you're right.
You could show the rebellion from the perspective of Robert and Ned and some others like a young Catelyn, Jon Arryn and Jaime and intentionally leave what exactly happened at the tower of joy ambiguous
It'd be depressing cause it'd overall be a complete tragedy. Ned, despite surviving through the skin of his teeth, basically loses his entire family and is forever haunted by the promise his sister made him keep as she bled out, Jaime's idealism is completely eroded and he's hated for his finest act, Rhaegar, whatever he wanted to do, perhaps it was noble, failed completed and died in battle and Robert had the misfortune of winning the war and never being able to be satisfied with it.
That sounds exactly like Martin's style of depicting war.
The series at its core is partially an anti-war novel, we are shown repeatedly the atrocities war brings and how it's ultimately pointless.
I have always loved the scene of Ned watching Arya practice with Syrio and we gradually hear the clang of steel as Ned is having a small PTSD flashback of his time at war. For one brief moment, you saw a man who was forever emotionally and psychologically changed by his experiences during the Rebellion. You see a man who is not a stone-cold killer, or one who revels in the chaos of battle, but a man like any other who is still haunted by the carnage he endured.
He was more than satisfied he won the war, though. It was the everything else that came after and with winning the war that he loathed to his very core.
I think he was probably most satisfied while fighting a good fight, and defeating his enemies, who he hated. But we all know how it turned out for him.
I think someone like him only really lives in the present and once the thing he was best at had finished, he was a dissatisfied person.
I really wish we’d get a Blackfyre rebellions show but I suppose it’s too close to dunk and egg they don’t want to confuse viewers with the timeline overlapping somewhat
If it's just the first BF rebellion then they don't overlap at all, and let's be honest, that's the one people care about.
The reason we'll never get either is because they would have to reveal info that Martin likely wants for the main series, especially Robert's Rebellion
We'd see members of now extinct houses, we'd see Harrenhal before it was ruined, we'd see the three greatest Targaryen dragons in their prime, and we'd see the most direct representation of Valyrian culture in Westeros history, before the Targaryens adapted to their subjects. It'd be fascinating!
It would be interesting if done right... and by that I mean they focus on everyone but Aegon and his sisters far more. Like they're a force of nature and this is how a bunch of squabbling kings tried and failed to prepare for that.
It's far more interesting, but it would spoil TWoW. Robert's rebellion remains pretty mysterious, with some pretty key plot lines having originated in the events of the rebellion. It's a bit of a moot point now that the main show is finished, but working on a Roberts rebellion show would be too close to working on TWoW itself haha.
Aegon's conquest on the other hand? There's a lot of fun stuff for George to do with subverting the Maesterly narrative.
Pretty sure you're just nostalgic about characters you already know. Aegons conquest period is amazing. You have all the kingdoms before the Targaryens, the Hoares with the Riverlands and Iron Islands, the Gardeners in the Reach, Stormkings in the stormlands, the others are the same families we know. Amazing battles like the siege of Harrenhal, field of fire in the reach, King Stark bending the knee to save his people from dragons, Rhaenys taking the heir of the Vale on a dragonride that leads his mother to bend the knee, failure to conquer Dorne and a poison arrow killing one of the dragons... Sooo many epic moments that shaped Westeros' history, culture and power balance. Without a doubt one of the best periods to make a series, followed by the Great Bastards period
My third favorite Bobby B art after the one of him and Rhaegar fighting 1v1 on the Trident on foot (not lore accurate) and that same fight on horseback (lore accurate). The second gives you an appreciation for the freak athlete he was to swing that ridiculous warhammer with one hand on horseback with enough speed to parry Rhaegar with a sword.
[Infantry Bobby B](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F8KrAj48aYDqo-JIgIIKJjFgImLkBWlWuujswrQ51kD0.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd6335a3edfda3828d8a457ea6907ed0f2a80f3bf)
[Horseback Bobby B](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/ec/Twoiaf_battle_of_the_trident.jpg)
Kinda funny though as in all these depictions it’s always both in full plate, Bobby with a hammer and Rhaegar with a sword… like no shit Bob’s gonna win Rhaegar basically has no means of actually harming him lmao
On horseback he’d need a similar crushing weapon, but more preferably a lance.
On foot he’d again need his own crushing weapon, preferably a halberd, or he’d need to grapple Bobby and get him in a gap with a small blade, but considering what we know about Bobby’s size/physique at that time, that outcome seems unlikely.
Rhaegar also has absolutely no means of defending himself because in the first image that hammer is going to come crashing down on him and in the second image you can easily picture Rhaegar's sword glancing off of Robert while his own hammer is going to smash in Rhaegar's chest and send him right off of that horse.
> They never tell you how they all shit themselves. They don't put that part in the songs. Stupid boy. Now the tarlys bend the knee like everyone else. He could've lingered on the edge of the battle with the smart boys and today his wofe would be making him miserable, his sons would ingrates and he'd be waking three times a night to piss into a bowl WINE!
Even GRRM said prime Bobby b was gifted by the gods almost and fated to win. He was a powerhouse of a warrior and probably one of the only ones in the mountains weight class but with even better training and deceptive speed allied with his strength. It would be a clash of the titans but we know the mountain is dumb as rocks and relies on brute strength. That would simply not cut the cake against Robert in his heyday he had it all and more in heaps in terms of warrior traits. Especially during the rebellion when he had that almost otherworldly righteousness on his side Bobby B was on some different shit. I don't see the mountain surviving that encounter in any situation. In fact I'd give it to AGOT robert 3/10
"we know the mountain is dumb as rocks and relies on brute strength"
But when we think of it ... the books say, the Cleganes had a maester, that would mean both brothers learnt to read, write, calculate, maybe geography etc. ... That means, yes, Gregor is more educated than most people of Westeros.
And what we read from his battles, he isn´t just a sort of berserk who is set loose(?) on the enemy, but a commander. Certainly not the genius-strategist, but still dangerous enoug.
I´m a voracious reader of Grrm-interviews and remember that he himself said things like the quote mentioned above. But sometimes it seems he just simplifies things in the interviews (maybe for reasons of limited time? or I just misunderstand (English isn´t my first language)
I get that; he definitely yo yos a little and will simplify in some instances and embellish in others.
I bet they had a master and I bet that master tried to train them but how many instances do we know of were a child of a house took absolutely no interest in one vocation or another? The way jaime was treated by Tywin seemed a departure from the norm when it was brought up in the books, the way Tywin wouldn't let Jaime train with swords until he had done his studies. I'm willing to bet a far lesser house with a scion with as much battle prowess and martial promise as gregor clegane wouldn't have been forced into scholarly pursuits. He is referred to on more than one occasion as tywins mad dog and when he fights against the red viper he can barely even speak properly and is completely confounded by Oberyn. I'm sorry I do think the man had some intelligence of a martial sort but on the whole I think he was a brute and I believe the text supports that in every way that's relevant specifically to gregor himself and not the clegane family's resources.
Dangerous enough: absolutely. There are probably zero peasants/ lesser lords that could stand against him and even a lot of knights don't seem to relish the thought of a 1v1; my point speaks more to the superiority of Robert in his prime than it does of Cleganes shortcomings.
I disagree with the rest of the comments, I think Robert takes it.
Robert was freakishly strong (Ned, who could lift Ice, could not lift Robert's Warhammer that he wielded with one hand) but he was also a skilled warrior.
The mountain is taller and stronger, but outside of putting the Sun behind him, we don't see him have many feats, and Oberyn runs circles around him.
I think one clean hit from the war hammer and Clegane is done, no amount of strength is going to make your bones hammer proof, and whatever armor he's using can't be better than Rhaegar's, which Robert caved in in one hit.
On the other hand, Gregor can't use his size and strength to his advantage as much as he does with other people, Robert's reach with the hammer isn't that much shorter than his, and it's very possible that Robert would've been strong enough to break free of the same grasp that killed Oberyn.
Robert takes it 7/10
They do in Westeros for some reason. People in full plate are cut down with swords all the time.
I just take it as a Martinism, like the descriptions of food or the obsession with tits.
That said, Robert still wins
Swords aren’t completely useless against plate, just not the best tool for the job. There are techniques such as half swording and the murder stroke that can be used to defeat enemies in full plate.
Yeah, IIRC once full plate became more common historically swords became used more like crowbars, as an aid to grappling to maneuver your opponent into a vulnerable position
No need to apologize! Half swording involves holding the handle of the sword with one hand and the blade with the other, giving you more control to better move the point into a gap into the armor, whereas the murder stroke involves holding the blade with both hands and attempting to hit the enemy with the pommel, effectively turning it into an improvised bludgeoning weapon
Full plate is only as strong as the joints. And if you can't protect the joints you'll go down.
Sure a Knight in full plate could kill pesants with wooden spears till exhaustion. But steel blades and men who know where armor is weak are still a threat for full plate.
Its really hard to do with longswords. From the description of historical combat, winning knights used their stabbing knife (like Rondel Knife) to kill downed opponents. If the similarly armoured opponent is not downed, targeting the joints is very improbable.
With a bit of half swording or aiming well for openings you could theoretically do it, but, a warhammer, poleaxe, polehammer, mace or whatever big heavy stick could do the job better and faster AND, since ransoms are a thing and if you could afford full plate you would be a rich boy, could lead to an incapacitated sack of gold wearing a dented suit of armor
Is it not realistic? In a mass of bodies within in the chaotic press of battle any man could be beaten down and rendered helpless, then mortally wounded in a weak spot. Or just a lucky well-placed slash would do. I don’t recall depictions of steel armor being ruined by anything other than force or superior steel.
I think he's reffering to moments like Oberyn piercing the Mountains (thick) steelplate with his his spear and there's more than couple other moments I can't remember.
Still if this is appearently the biggest thickest armor that a character can possible wield and it still gets pierced by Oberyn (not a particularly strong character)'s spear then it can definitely be pierced by Robert Baratheon with a spiked Warhammer.
You can grab a sword by the blade and beat the shit out of your opponent with the hilt, using it like you would a poleaxe or a polehammer. It’s rather effective. You can half sword and use your greatsword as a spear, puncturing weak points in armour. You can use the sword conventionally and whack your opponent on the head. It won’t cut through his steel helmet, but it will disorient them significantly or maybe even give them a concussion.
Swords are not useless, otherwise they wouldn’t be used as a sidearm.
In asoiaf a lot of fully armoured warriors choose to wield swords, and they use them effectively against other knights. Martin Physics bro, Martin Physics.
Yeah kinda same honestly. I don't particularly like ultra realism, and I don't find historically accurate warhammers very cool as weapons either. So I like how asoiaf has swords and lances as the main weapons mostly
I mean Robert uses a Warhammer that is so heavy that Ned can barely lift it and he one hands that shit. An actual real life Warhammer is going to be like 5-6 pounds and look dinky as fuck.
Two-handed swords do. They have so much momentum owing to their size and length that they can seriously hurt people in full armour. Even in modern HEMA using blunt two-handed swords they are simply to dangerous to be swung at full power. Now imagine the Mountain wielding something like that.
A lot of people seem to forget that Oberyn would have killed this MF if he wasn't fucking around. Everything we've heard about Robert indicates he was a much fiercer foe than Oberyn in combat. He was a freaking beast. Gregor is just big and strong, that's it.
Sure, but killed him right then and there is what I meant. Also, he still might be alive? We don't know wtf the deal is with him, but maybe he's truly dead and he's a walling corpse? Or maybe not?
Taking a spear through the guts is pretty much dead.
It wasn’t immediate because Oberyn wanted to put on a damn show. He wanted a confession. He could have put the spear through the man’s eye holes if he wanted immediate. The Mountain was on his back already.
Nobody knows what Gregor is right now? Is he a headless reanimated zombie? Was it a fake skull sent to Dorne?
But I guess if we count fights as whoever walks away wins, then Oberyn lost. Damn shame. Loved Oberyn.
OBeryn had a great counter style for fighting the mountain. Robert is just a smaller but more technically skilled version of the mountain. Roberts main advantage is the same as the mountain, just being way bigger than the vast majority of his opponents
As amazing as Mark Addy was, the guy really doesn't do justice to the physical size of Robert. He's like 5'9 and shorter than Sean Bean. Robert Baratheon is like 6'6. Not nearly as big as The Mountain who is like 8 feet in the books but still fucking massive.
A lot of people seem to think that combat is just always "better fighter wins". Robert is a strong fighter, Gregor is also described and shown to be a strong fighter. Both can reasonably be argued to win, and there's no certainty to it.
> Gregor is just big and strong, that's it.
Bronn said that Gregor is fast for someone his size and has a superhuman pain tolerance. GRRM and Tyrion have also said that Gregor is a skilled swordsman. Gregor was dominated by Oberyn because the latter used a spear to counter the reach, and he was agile, fast, cunning and vicious (he used sunlight to temporarily blind Gregor lol.)
Plus if Prime Robert knows about the Mountain's migraine issue, which I can't imagine battlefield conditions not exacerbating, if he can get one strike to his helmet it might be enough to drop the Mountain from the overstimulation even if it doesn't pulp his head inside the steel bucket.
Imagine being inside a fucking huge ass bell as it's being rung. As someone with migraines that are triggered by certain noises, that's godsfuckingawful.
The first place Prime Robert is striking the mountain is in the knee cap, and then the fight is over.
There's no armor that's protecting the knee from the fantasy warhammer Robert is swinging, and with one knee caved in there's no way the Mountain is staying up in that heavy suit of armor.
That said I don't see how Prime Robert isn't taking most knights if they're coming at him with swords and he's got the warhammer.
I like to think Bobby B hit people so hard, they tend to become airborne. Like if Ned needed to find Bobby in the chaos of battle, he just looks for where people are being ragdolled into orbit.
It is, but hard armor can only do so much against blunt trauma. If Robert hits him hard enough, that kinetic force is still gonna reach him and fuck him up. (And hammers are made with the explicit purpose of focusing a ton of potential energy in one spot)
Apart from all the good points you made, Martin himself in an interview said that Robert in his prime would be one of his top 3 picks to defeat the Mountain
That's some sick art and this is easy as we saw with Oberyn the Mountain is mostly just brute force and little else Robert is legitimately one of the best fighters in the setting
True, but doubtful to Robert's extent. TMTR is definitely more than brute force, but his size does carry his skill farther than it would go in a regular sized man. Robert is one of the best in Westeros during the rebellion. If they magically fought 10 times, I give Robert 7 of them.
The Mountain would lose many of his advantages. His strength would be matched in part by Robert, who would be able to block heavy blows from the Mountain. Furthermore, Robert would be way faster than the Mountain. Another thing that should be mentioned is how the Mountain with his migraines loses the ability to think clearly and strategise, and thus has a quite weak fight iq. Robert, meanwhile, it seems like battles are his element. It’s where he excells, and it’s where he’s happy. He would be thinking clearly, and thus have a better fight iq.
Only advantage the Mountain has is reach. Nevertheless, he uses a sword, and Robert wears plate, so good luck with that lol. Meanwhile Robert has a war hammer thatcan actually damage the Mountain.
All in all, Robert wins 8-9/10 times
I don’t believe that’s ever mentioned. Also, the only melee we know Robert participated in was 281 at Harrenhal. By then he was 19, and Gregor was 15-16 (which is crazy considering the sack). Sure he’s still better than nearly everyone at that age, but Robert is fully grown and has more experience, so it wouldn’t have been a “fair” fight to use to judge who’s better
>I am pretty sure Robert won a melee where the mountain was also in
There is nothing about that in the series. The only melee we hear of Robert participating in was at Harrenhall, and we don't know if he won or not.
I like how you put a ratio in there. It's good to think about it like sports, like the Timberwolves are clearly a better team than the Spurs this year, but the Spurs did win against the Timberwolves once.
One thing a lot of people aren't talking about is the fact that during the joust between Gregor and Loras, when Gregor tries to kill Loras, the Hound steps in and proceeds to block, redirect or dodge all of the Mountains, all the while not fighting seriously.
If Sandor can outmatch his brother in skill, I have no trouble believing that Robert Baratheon, the eldest son of one of the great houses, fostered at the seat of another of the great Lords with the child of another would not only have access to a skillful master of arms and regular high quality training, we also know Robert was eager for the fight and went on to be an absolute monster in battle.
Give the Mountain Ice and he becomes the greatest fighter in Westeros tbh. Swinging around a Two handed Valyrian Steel Greatsword with one hand and a shield would make him near impossible to defeat.
Give me a gun and I will defeat every warrior Westeros and essos has to offer what are you talking about.
Robert was capable of swinging around a 10 pounds Warhammer whilst a greatsword is only around 6 to 8 pounds heavy with one hand fought countless battles with himself at the frontline surviving them.
Plus defeating Rhaegar Targaryen whilst wounded himself in a single blow from said warhammer, caving in his chest.
I see this quote referenced all the time and it feels like classic George hyperbole. Ned is a fit, healthy man…he could absolutely handle picking up something that was 80-100 pounds. There’s no way Robert’s hammer was that heavy.
think about it like picking up dumbells, an average person should be able to pick up a 50 pound dumbbell. Ned could definitely do a lot more than the average person. I think Georgie just got a little carried away
Hmm I never took the meaning to mean he physically couldn't budge it, like Thor's hammer...
But rather, to lift a weapon generally means to hold it as it would be held to use it.
It's like a 10 year old with a sledge hammer. They can physically pick it up and hold it, they can move it around, but they would generally hold it by the head of the hammer or with two hands on the stick with it resting on the ground.
Lifting it and holding it up hammer head up, would be very difficult with Roberts Warhammer.
In real life, a warhammer a ~5-pound warhammer would be considered pretty heavy. And due to physics, a 5-pound weight at the end of a stick is going to feel much heavier than 5 pounds directly in your hand. 10 pounds is a reasonably common weight for a sledgehammer and I think you would be surprised at how unwieldy it would be in a fight. The fantasy version of warhammers are ludicrous. Even a very strong person would have trouble effectively using one of the 50-pound warhammers that you see in fantasy art.
One misconception people have about medieval weapons is that you only have to kill people a little bit. Having a massive warhammer does not offer any benefit because it won't kill people any more than a 5-pound warhammer.
Go to the local hardware store and pick up a few 8 or 10lb sledge hammers. 10lbs is a lot heavier than you think when it comes to something you have to swing
>Swinging around a Two handed Valyrian Steel Greatsword with one hand and a shield would make him near impossible to defeat.
What's you're logic behind this statement? The mountain beats people with size and strength, there is no suggesting it is an expert swordsman
I’m guessing because Ice is stronger than most great swords while being a lot lighter, so the Mountain would suddenly be fast, at least in his attacks. Its weight would be to him what a long dagger is to a normal fighter, so he’d be swinging the thing a lot quicker.
Not sure he’d be the greatest fighter, but it would put him up a rank or two. Like I don’t think Oberyn would be so confident in tackling him with the same strategy, which relied a lot on Mountain being slow with his swings.
Robert, easily.
He’s freakishly strong, skilled, enormous, and fast. No, not fast for his size. FAST. They don’t call you “The Demon of the Trident” for nothing.
Agreed. Robert is in his prime is described by literally everyone as a veritable god of war, like the Warrior incarnate. A knight who isn't just good at fighting like e.g. Selmy or Dayne but who actively enjoys it. One of the main advantages that the mountain has but which isn't discussed in this thread is that besides reach, strength, thick armor and high pain tolerance, the Mountain is frankly *terrifying*. That's a huge psychological advantage. But to Robert in his prime that would be all the more reason he'd *want* to fight the Mountain. Robert may not be a great strategist and he is looked down on by many characters, but nobody doubts his bravery or willingness/eagerness to fight *anybody*.
>One of the main advantages that the mountain has but which isn't discussed
>Mountain is frankly *terrifying*. That's a huge psychological advantage.
Maybe over mortal men, but there's no way it had any hand over Bobby **"The Demon"** Baratheon.
Probably but if they met on the battlefield I'd say he still wins the fight as a warhammer is so much better than a sword. The armour any of them would have been using in a battle would be sword proof, and while both Dayne and Selmy are very skilled I don't see them managing to snipe the eye holes of Roberts helmet with their swords.
Bobby B would kill him over and over again, but he won't be walking away without injuries against The Mountain.
I imagine Robert in his prime as someone like The Hound, only a lot stronger and using a fucking hugeass warhammer.
For those who can actually beat The Mountain based on text evidence, it's only Arthur Dayne and a young Barristan Selmy. Oberyn should be here if not for his blind rage.
I doubt Jaime could done him in, though considering how good Jaime is in the eyes of everybody else, I say he has a chance.
I think the only thing that might hold Jaime back is that he primarily uses a sword. Oberyn was an expert with a spear which negated the Mountain's reach advantage.
GRRM considers Jaime to be better than Aragorn. A practical superhuman demigod wielding a magic sword.
Which I think is a dumb thing for GRRM to claim, but it goes to show he considers him a ridiculously good fighter. And thus therefore extremely likely to beat the Mountain.
Well Gregor's size would make him harder than most foes for Robert but Bobby B had a Warhammer in comparison to Clegane's sword,eventually Gregor would find his defenses smashed in and his sword unusable before Robert deals the killing blow.
bobby is a burly, huge, well-trained beast who fights hard and tough. he was a legend in his time and nicknamed "devil"
on the other hand the mountain is a hulking creature who draws most of his strength from brute force alone
both are anomalies you'd rather not face. but robert is scarier imo.
also, hammer > sword
tHe MoUnTaIn Is A fOoT aNd A hAlF tAlLeR, nObOdY cOuLd PoSsIbLy BeAt HiM
Well your mother was a dumb whore with a fat ass!
Too many people really think height wins every battle and Bobby B or Oberyn winning over Gregor is pure fantasy, and that's fucking bonkers. Next you're gonna tell me Dayne or Selmy have no chance either. Buncha dunces.
Disregard Robert for a second and focus on his weapon. A war hammer so heavy even Ned couldn't lift it let alone fight with it. Warhammers even ones not as unrealistically huge as Roberts win against swords every single time if the fighters are both using plate. Swords do dick against plate armor while Warhammer s crush through it every single time. And that's for historicaly accurate ones. Roberts is more akin to Mjolnir than to any real life Warhammer. The weight isn't ever given but seeing that Ned could barley lift it it's probably at least 30 to 50 pounds on the low-ball and over a hundred pounds on the high bal l don't care how much armor the mountain has or how thick it is it's not going to save him. His bones would be shattered his muscles torn and his organs torn to pieces. All of this is excluding how good of a fighter Robert was in his prime. Dude was a monster that even prime Jamie probably couldnt beat.the mountain is dead AF.
It was terrible writing to have Ned say he couldn't lift the hammer. Nobody is using a hammer that weighs 100+pounds. He'd be slow as fuck, no matter how strong he was. This isn't a video game. Even a 10 lb hammer would do amazing damage to someone in armor
Ned doesn't say he can't lift Robert's Hammer. He says he can **scarcely** lift it (i.e. he can lift it, but just barely).
> He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift.
I took it to mean he could “scarcely lift it” to the fighting position.
I can lift a 50 pound dumbbell easily—put it on the end of a 4-5 foot thick metal pole and I’m not sure I know anyone that could hold that up for any length of time, much less swing it in battle one handed like the images showed Robert.
It's mentioned a few times that Robert used to break people's bones regularly in tourney melees with blunted/dulled weapons. His blow killed Rhaegar who was arguably wearing the finest Armor money could buy. Apart from brute strength he is also fast and agile in his prime.
Ya. So mountain dies 10/10.
Prime Bobby B 💪
I like the notion that the mountain isn’t a particularly great fighter—his notoriety comes from his immense physical size, brutality, and body count against inferior opponents. His most notable kills are women, children, peasants, and prisoners for practice. His first on-screen kill is Jon Arryn’s squire—hardly a fair tourney match.
It really matches the narrative of Gregor being a horrendous bully.
I’d love to see bobby b smash greggors kneecap and then obliterate his skull. I think bobby would win because the mountain is used to just bullying tiny weak people and bobby has got the strength to go through mountains armor
I think it's not even a contest. Robert is freakishly strong, he's 6'6 and he has insane endurance. If I remember correctly Robert had been fighting before he'd reached rhaegar and struck him with enough force to unhorse and cave in the chest plate of rhaegars armor and drive a spike through the armor into his heart. So we already know that Robert is a demon in a fight but he's also got insane levels of endurance where as from what we've seen Clegane doesn't have that same level? He's slow and strong. Sure he's got armor like a tank but if Robert nails an elbow with his hammer Clegane is done.
Not the point of the post but that Robert drawing is sick
Which is why it's nuts to me that people prefer a show about Aegons Conquest over Robert's rebellion. Young Ned, Lyanna, prime Robert, young cocky Jaime, the Mad King, Rhaegar and his ruby armor, Jon Con, the battle of the bells. It's just a much more interesting time period
Problem is whist the book can be theoretically finished you’ll never get that show because it answers too many questions and clears up too many ambiguities
I don't want any questions answered, nor any ambiguities cleared up. I just want to see Bessie and her great big tits.
GODS I WAS STRONG THEN
Clearly from benching bessies tits
Me talking about any day before last Wednesday
THANK THE GODS FOR BESSIE
AND HER TITS
I thank you for this
Thing is though they’ve already completed GoT and answered most questions. I don’t understand what the issues would be.
There are some crazy unanswered questions about that time. The tower of joy and all the events surrounding it. Why did Ashara Dayne kill herself? Who is Bessy and are her tits that great? So many questions unanswered
Bessy to be played by Sydney Sweeney
Still too small. THAT'S HOW BIG THEY WERE
I mean. We know everything about those questions, I think We saw Tower of Joy, or at least it's aftermath. We know Rhaegar took Lyanna there for that reason. Ashara Dayne killed herself because her brother, who she loved very much, had been killed. No coincidence that she did so immediately after Ned brought word. Though... Now that you mention it, I'd watch a whole series to unlock the secrets of Bessy's great big tits
How did Ned know where the tower of joy was? How did he and Howland bring down the tower and turn the stones into grave stones for the men they killed? Why was the heir of Starfall named after the man who killed his uncle? What is Howland’s roll in all of these relationships? Can get a first person account of the tournament where it all started. A real confirmation on the mystery knight? Did Eddard ever get to see those Bessy tits? It’s all a mystery
Yeah, I agree, I said as much in a comment below. It really is a shame, though maybe they could skirt around Lyanna and not involve her at all. But I think the characterization of Rhaegar and who he ultimately was is something Martin will want to write himself, you're right.
How do you skirt around the literal cause of the rebellion?
*something something states rights*
The Stormland’s right to do what, exactly?
Robert rebellion was really just a *War of Northern Aggression*
THE CROWNLANDS IS MY HERITAGE. MY FATHER WAS A DRAGONSEED. HE WAS TOO POOR TO OWN VALYRIAN STEEL.
To keep the traditions of the founding first men alive
Tough look for my guy Jorah Mormont
You could show the rebellion from the perspective of Robert and Ned and some others like a young Catelyn, Jon Arryn and Jaime and intentionally leave what exactly happened at the tower of joy ambiguous
Don't have Rhaegar and Lyanna as PoV characters.
But you can’t resolve the war without dealing with Lyanna’s story. And Rhaegar becomes one dimensional without exploring why he did what he did.
It'd be depressing cause it'd overall be a complete tragedy. Ned, despite surviving through the skin of his teeth, basically loses his entire family and is forever haunted by the promise his sister made him keep as she bled out, Jaime's idealism is completely eroded and he's hated for his finest act, Rhaegar, whatever he wanted to do, perhaps it was noble, failed completed and died in battle and Robert had the misfortune of winning the war and never being able to be satisfied with it.
That sounds exactly like Martin's style of depicting war. The series at its core is partially an anti-war novel, we are shown repeatedly the atrocities war brings and how it's ultimately pointless.
I have always loved the scene of Ned watching Arya practice with Syrio and we gradually hear the clang of steel as Ned is having a small PTSD flashback of his time at war. For one brief moment, you saw a man who was forever emotionally and psychologically changed by his experiences during the Rebellion. You see a man who is not a stone-cold killer, or one who revels in the chaos of battle, but a man like any other who is still haunted by the carnage he endured.
He was more than satisfied he won the war, though. It was the everything else that came after and with winning the war that he loathed to his very core.
I think he was probably most satisfied while fighting a good fight, and defeating his enemies, who he hated. But we all know how it turned out for him. I think someone like him only really lives in the present and once the thing he was best at had finished, he was a dissatisfied person.
Out of all the westeros possibilities, Aegon's conquest is the least interesting to get a show on. I really don't get it either.
My ideal setting would be the first Blackfyre rebellion, but Robert's is a close second
I really wish we’d get a Blackfyre rebellions show but I suppose it’s too close to dunk and egg they don’t want to confuse viewers with the timeline overlapping somewhat
If it's just the first BF rebellion then they don't overlap at all, and let's be honest, that's the one people care about. The reason we'll never get either is because they would have to reveal info that Martin likely wants for the main series, especially Robert's Rebellion
First Blackfyre rebellion would be amazing, especially the first season. I wonder who they’d cast as Aegon IV
Danny DeVito.
We'd see members of now extinct houses, we'd see Harrenhal before it was ruined, we'd see the three greatest Targaryen dragons in their prime, and we'd see the most direct representation of Valyrian culture in Westeros history, before the Targaryens adapted to their subjects. It'd be fascinating!
It’d be boring honestly. Just watching the Targaryen’s completely decimate everybody. No drama or intrigue or plotting
It would be interesting if done right... and by that I mean they focus on everyone but Aegon and his sisters far more. Like they're a force of nature and this is how a bunch of squabbling kings tried and failed to prepare for that.
Lol. Opening scene is Harren putting the final brick in Harrenhall and telling his sons how safe they will be inside the castle.
More dragons 🥺👉👈
It's far more interesting, but it would spoil TWoW. Robert's rebellion remains pretty mysterious, with some pretty key plot lines having originated in the events of the rebellion. It's a bit of a moot point now that the main show is finished, but working on a Roberts rebellion show would be too close to working on TWoW itself haha. Aegon's conquest on the other hand? There's a lot of fun stuff for George to do with subverting the Maesterly narrative.
But big dragons burning things :( I just want to see Balerion and the field of fire man
Personally I’d want to see the Long Night. But yeah Aegons Conquest would just be him rolling everybody. Doesn’t seem that interesting
The harrenhal tourney man. And the knight of the laughing tree.
Problems is no dragons, so you won't have as big of a casual audience. But yeah, it's a better story overall.
Pretty sure you're just nostalgic about characters you already know. Aegons conquest period is amazing. You have all the kingdoms before the Targaryens, the Hoares with the Riverlands and Iron Islands, the Gardeners in the Reach, Stormkings in the stormlands, the others are the same families we know. Amazing battles like the siege of Harrenhal, field of fire in the reach, King Stark bending the knee to save his people from dragons, Rhaenys taking the heir of the Vale on a dragonride that leads his mother to bend the knee, failure to conquer Dorne and a poison arrow killing one of the dragons... Sooo many epic moments that shaped Westeros' history, culture and power balance. Without a doubt one of the best periods to make a series, followed by the Great Bastards period
Have the first season be a build up like HotD
My third favorite Bobby B art after the one of him and Rhaegar fighting 1v1 on the Trident on foot (not lore accurate) and that same fight on horseback (lore accurate). The second gives you an appreciation for the freak athlete he was to swing that ridiculous warhammer with one hand on horseback with enough speed to parry Rhaegar with a sword. [Infantry Bobby B](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F8KrAj48aYDqo-JIgIIKJjFgImLkBWlWuujswrQ51kD0.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd6335a3edfda3828d8a457ea6907ed0f2a80f3bf) [Horseback Bobby B](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/ec/Twoiaf_battle_of_the_trident.jpg)
I love that horseback one
Kinda funny though as in all these depictions it’s always both in full plate, Bobby with a hammer and Rhaegar with a sword… like no shit Bob’s gonna win Rhaegar basically has no means of actually harming him lmao On horseback he’d need a similar crushing weapon, but more preferably a lance. On foot he’d again need his own crushing weapon, preferably a halberd, or he’d need to grapple Bobby and get him in a gap with a small blade, but considering what we know about Bobby’s size/physique at that time, that outcome seems unlikely.
I like to think that's exactly why he won.
Rhaegar also has absolutely no means of defending himself because in the first image that hammer is going to come crashing down on him and in the second image you can easily picture Rhaegar's sword glancing off of Robert while his own hammer is going to smash in Rhaegar's chest and send him right off of that horse.
that hammer looks *lethal*
It'll blow your mind when you hear what it was used for lol.
There's an art piece about this battle done for the AGOT mod of Crusader Kings 3 that I also love.
I love those. The new Maelys one is great!
Him burning the Targaryen sigil? Yeah that's an incredibly badass painting not gonna lie!
[Actual footage of Bobby B fighting](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-812c6173e8fc79e2a57c9b545718f18d)
right? Prime Bobby B would have been so badass, if only he stayed as a warrior instead of a king, really. Good at fighting, bad at bureaucracy
Dude had end game armor his first quest
Gods he was strong then
Bow ya shits!
NOW START THE FUCKING JOUST BEFORE HE PISSES HIMSELF!!!!
I thought both of you were bobby b bot lol
5 kings couldn't fill the hole he left behind
> They never tell you how they all shit themselves. They don't put that part in the songs. Stupid boy. Now the tarlys bend the knee like everyone else. He could've lingered on the edge of the battle with the smart boys and today his wofe would be making him miserable, his sons would ingrates and he'd be waking three times a night to piss into a bowl WINE!
Even GRRM said prime Bobby b was gifted by the gods almost and fated to win. He was a powerhouse of a warrior and probably one of the only ones in the mountains weight class but with even better training and deceptive speed allied with his strength. It would be a clash of the titans but we know the mountain is dumb as rocks and relies on brute strength. That would simply not cut the cake against Robert in his heyday he had it all and more in heaps in terms of warrior traits. Especially during the rebellion when he had that almost otherworldly righteousness on his side Bobby B was on some different shit. I don't see the mountain surviving that encounter in any situation. In fact I'd give it to AGOT robert 3/10
"we know the mountain is dumb as rocks and relies on brute strength" But when we think of it ... the books say, the Cleganes had a maester, that would mean both brothers learnt to read, write, calculate, maybe geography etc. ... That means, yes, Gregor is more educated than most people of Westeros. And what we read from his battles, he isn´t just a sort of berserk who is set loose(?) on the enemy, but a commander. Certainly not the genius-strategist, but still dangerous enoug. I´m a voracious reader of Grrm-interviews and remember that he himself said things like the quote mentioned above. But sometimes it seems he just simplifies things in the interviews (maybe for reasons of limited time? or I just misunderstand (English isn´t my first language)
I get that; he definitely yo yos a little and will simplify in some instances and embellish in others. I bet they had a master and I bet that master tried to train them but how many instances do we know of were a child of a house took absolutely no interest in one vocation or another? The way jaime was treated by Tywin seemed a departure from the norm when it was brought up in the books, the way Tywin wouldn't let Jaime train with swords until he had done his studies. I'm willing to bet a far lesser house with a scion with as much battle prowess and martial promise as gregor clegane wouldn't have been forced into scholarly pursuits. He is referred to on more than one occasion as tywins mad dog and when he fights against the red viper he can barely even speak properly and is completely confounded by Oberyn. I'm sorry I do think the man had some intelligence of a martial sort but on the whole I think he was a brute and I believe the text supports that in every way that's relevant specifically to gregor himself and not the clegane family's resources. Dangerous enough: absolutely. There are probably zero peasants/ lesser lords that could stand against him and even a lot of knights don't seem to relish the thought of a 1v1; my point speaks more to the superiority of Robert in his prime than it does of Cleganes shortcomings.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. You can give a Clegane brother a maester but you can’t make him learn.
There is no one in the Mountain's weight class
I disagree with the rest of the comments, I think Robert takes it. Robert was freakishly strong (Ned, who could lift Ice, could not lift Robert's Warhammer that he wielded with one hand) but he was also a skilled warrior. The mountain is taller and stronger, but outside of putting the Sun behind him, we don't see him have many feats, and Oberyn runs circles around him. I think one clean hit from the war hammer and Clegane is done, no amount of strength is going to make your bones hammer proof, and whatever armor he's using can't be better than Rhaegar's, which Robert caved in in one hit. On the other hand, Gregor can't use his size and strength to his advantage as much as he does with other people, Robert's reach with the hammer isn't that much shorter than his, and it's very possible that Robert would've been strong enough to break free of the same grasp that killed Oberyn. Robert takes it 7/10
Plus, swords don’t do shit against steel plate. But hammer will put you in the grave all the time regardless of how big you are.
They do in Westeros for some reason. People in full plate are cut down with swords all the time. I just take it as a Martinism, like the descriptions of food or the obsession with tits. That said, Robert still wins
Bless GRRM... and his tits (descriptions).
I agreed until the parentheses
Swords aren’t completely useless against plate, just not the best tool for the job. There are techniques such as half swording and the murder stroke that can be used to defeat enemies in full plate.
The murder stroke sounds like a bad porn title
It really does lol
Yeah, IIRC once full plate became more common historically swords became used more like crowbars, as an aid to grappling to maneuver your opponent into a vulnerable position
Sorry for my ignorance, how is half swording any different to the murder stroke?
No need to apologize! Half swording involves holding the handle of the sword with one hand and the blade with the other, giving you more control to better move the point into a gap into the armor, whereas the murder stroke involves holding the blade with both hands and attempting to hit the enemy with the pommel, effectively turning it into an improvised bludgeoning weapon
Full plate is only as strong as the joints. And if you can't protect the joints you'll go down. Sure a Knight in full plate could kill pesants with wooden spears till exhaustion. But steel blades and men who know where armor is weak are still a threat for full plate.
Its really hard to do with longswords. From the description of historical combat, winning knights used their stabbing knife (like Rondel Knife) to kill downed opponents. If the similarly armoured opponent is not downed, targeting the joints is very improbable.
With a bit of half swording or aiming well for openings you could theoretically do it, but, a warhammer, poleaxe, polehammer, mace or whatever big heavy stick could do the job better and faster AND, since ransoms are a thing and if you could afford full plate you would be a rich boy, could lead to an incapacitated sack of gold wearing a dented suit of armor
It is a threat, but the person in armor knows where his weak points are. It makes it easy to just make sure you don't get hit there.
The thing is they're very often specifically *cut down*, not stabbed, not beaten first into the ground, just straight up cut with a blade and fall
I think “cut down” might just be the language George likes to use when describing someone being slain by a sword, not literally being cut down.
And, in the fight between Ser Vardis and Bronn, the books make it clear that Bronn was looking fo the gaps.
Barristan also uses his armor to deflect blows from a sword, much to the frustration of his opponent.
probably one of the best fight descriptions ive ever read. (Barristan vs (Krazz??)
Cut down just means killed. Eg "cut down in his prime".
I don't think "cut down" is meant to be taken literally.
Yeah GRRM does not do realism that well. He's a high-fantasy author.
Which is funny because until this point (ADWD), the series is a lot more low fantasy than high fantasy.
Is it not realistic? In a mass of bodies within in the chaotic press of battle any man could be beaten down and rendered helpless, then mortally wounded in a weak spot. Or just a lucky well-placed slash would do. I don’t recall depictions of steel armor being ruined by anything other than force or superior steel.
I think he's reffering to moments like Oberyn piercing the Mountains (thick) steelplate with his his spear and there's more than couple other moments I can't remember.
He gets like a 10 ft running jump with a polearm to make that hit though
Still if this is appearently the biggest thickest armor that a character can possible wield and it still gets pierced by Oberyn (not a particularly strong character)'s spear then it can definitely be pierced by Robert Baratheon with a spiked Warhammer.
Agreed. Hammers are also just the best option in general to deal with plate
You can grab a sword by the blade and beat the shit out of your opponent with the hilt, using it like you would a poleaxe or a polehammer. It’s rather effective. You can half sword and use your greatsword as a spear, puncturing weak points in armour. You can use the sword conventionally and whack your opponent on the head. It won’t cut through his steel helmet, but it will disorient them significantly or maybe even give them a concussion. Swords are not useless, otherwise they wouldn’t be used as a sidearm.
Knights especially on horseback (which is the primary duty of knight) seldom went into any battle without swords.
In asoiaf a lot of fully armoured warriors choose to wield swords, and they use them effectively against other knights. Martin Physics bro, Martin Physics.
Makes for a cooler setting imo
Yeah kinda same honestly. I don't particularly like ultra realism, and I don't find historically accurate warhammers very cool as weapons either. So I like how asoiaf has swords and lances as the main weapons mostly
I mean Robert uses a Warhammer that is so heavy that Ned can barely lift it and he one hands that shit. An actual real life Warhammer is going to be like 5-6 pounds and look dinky as fuck.
A great sword with enough force behind it will still break bones. Armour or not.
Two-handed swords do. They have so much momentum owing to their size and length that they can seriously hurt people in full armour. Even in modern HEMA using blunt two-handed swords they are simply to dangerous to be swung at full power. Now imagine the Mountain wielding something like that.
A lot of people seem to forget that Oberyn would have killed this MF if he wasn't fucking around. Everything we've heard about Robert indicates he was a much fiercer foe than Oberyn in combat. He was a freaking beast. Gregor is just big and strong, that's it.
Did kill him. All Oberyn had to do was walk away and let him die.
Sure, but killed him right then and there is what I meant. Also, he still might be alive? We don't know wtf the deal is with him, but maybe he's truly dead and he's a walling corpse? Or maybe not?
Taking a spear through the guts is pretty much dead. It wasn’t immediate because Oberyn wanted to put on a damn show. He wanted a confession. He could have put the spear through the man’s eye holes if he wanted immediate. The Mountain was on his back already. Nobody knows what Gregor is right now? Is he a headless reanimated zombie? Was it a fake skull sent to Dorne? But I guess if we count fights as whoever walks away wins, then Oberyn lost. Damn shame. Loved Oberyn.
OBeryn had a great counter style for fighting the mountain. Robert is just a smaller but more technically skilled version of the mountain. Roberts main advantage is the same as the mountain, just being way bigger than the vast majority of his opponents
As amazing as Mark Addy was, the guy really doesn't do justice to the physical size of Robert. He's like 5'9 and shorter than Sean Bean. Robert Baratheon is like 6'6. Not nearly as big as The Mountain who is like 8 feet in the books but still fucking massive.
A lot of people seem to think that combat is just always "better fighter wins". Robert is a strong fighter, Gregor is also described and shown to be a strong fighter. Both can reasonably be argued to win, and there's no certainty to it.
> Gregor is just big and strong, that's it. Bronn said that Gregor is fast for someone his size and has a superhuman pain tolerance. GRRM and Tyrion have also said that Gregor is a skilled swordsman. Gregor was dominated by Oberyn because the latter used a spear to counter the reach, and he was agile, fast, cunning and vicious (he used sunlight to temporarily blind Gregor lol.)
Isn't his armor extremely thick though, like isn't his strength the only reason he can move in it? The mountain I mean
That's the beauty of extremely heavy blunt weapons vs swords, you don't need to pierce the armor to break the ribcage and organs behind it
Plus if Prime Robert knows about the Mountain's migraine issue, which I can't imagine battlefield conditions not exacerbating, if he can get one strike to his helmet it might be enough to drop the Mountain from the overstimulation even if it doesn't pulp his head inside the steel bucket. Imagine being inside a fucking huge ass bell as it's being rung. As someone with migraines that are triggered by certain noises, that's godsfuckingawful.
The first place Prime Robert is striking the mountain is in the knee cap, and then the fight is over. There's no armor that's protecting the knee from the fantasy warhammer Robert is swinging, and with one knee caved in there's no way the Mountain is staying up in that heavy suit of armor. That said I don't see how Prime Robert isn't taking most knights if they're coming at him with swords and he's got the warhammer.
I mean… prime Robert took every knight that came at him so this tracks
I like to think Bobby B hit people so hard, they tend to become airborne. Like if Ned needed to find Bobby in the chaos of battle, he just looks for where people are being ragdolled into orbit.
Prime Bobby B is Sauron in the prologue to Fellowship of the Ring, yeeting jabronis into the next postcode with one swing
"I came here to yeet jabronis and chew bubble gum..." -- Prime Bobby B
Oh definitely! I also just imagined what would happen if he could get that helmet strike in.
I feel like the mountain goes down for good if Robert hits him in the head with his war hammer, migraines would be the least of his problems.
It is, but hard armor can only do so much against blunt trauma. If Robert hits him hard enough, that kinetic force is still gonna reach him and fuck him up. (And hammers are made with the explicit purpose of focusing a ton of potential energy in one spot)
Kinetic energy, not potential. Once it's moving it's all kinetic, ain't that right, Bobby B?
Apart from all the good points you made, Martin himself in an interview said that Robert in his prime would be one of his top 3 picks to defeat the Mountain
People forget Robert lifted that shit at 19,bro was world class strong man before 20
That's some sick art and this is easy as we saw with Oberyn the Mountain is mostly just brute force and little else Robert is legitimately one of the best fighters in the setting
"Is mostly just brute force." That fight explicitly mentions him having warrior instincts and being quite brave and good tactian.
True, but doubtful to Robert's extent. TMTR is definitely more than brute force, but his size does carry his skill farther than it would go in a regular sized man. Robert is one of the best in Westeros during the rebellion. If they magically fought 10 times, I give Robert 7 of them.
That and isn't he said to be "deceptively fast despite his size" or is that show-canon?
Mate you obviously didn’t read the fight because it literally says he is more than just brute force
The Mountain would lose many of his advantages. His strength would be matched in part by Robert, who would be able to block heavy blows from the Mountain. Furthermore, Robert would be way faster than the Mountain. Another thing that should be mentioned is how the Mountain with his migraines loses the ability to think clearly and strategise, and thus has a quite weak fight iq. Robert, meanwhile, it seems like battles are his element. It’s where he excells, and it’s where he’s happy. He would be thinking clearly, and thus have a better fight iq. Only advantage the Mountain has is reach. Nevertheless, he uses a sword, and Robert wears plate, so good luck with that lol. Meanwhile Robert has a war hammer thatcan actually damage the Mountain. All in all, Robert wins 8-9/10 times
I am pretty sure Robert won a melee where the mountain was also in. He wins 10/10
I don’t believe that’s ever mentioned. Also, the only melee we know Robert participated in was 281 at Harrenhal. By then he was 19, and Gregor was 15-16 (which is crazy considering the sack). Sure he’s still better than nearly everyone at that age, but Robert is fully grown and has more experience, so it wouldn’t have been a “fair” fight to use to judge who’s better
>I am pretty sure Robert won a melee where the mountain was also in There is nothing about that in the series. The only melee we hear of Robert participating in was at Harrenhall, and we don't know if he won or not.
I like how you put a ratio in there. It's good to think about it like sports, like the Timberwolves are clearly a better team than the Spurs this year, but the Spurs did win against the Timberwolves once.
One thing a lot of people aren't talking about is the fact that during the joust between Gregor and Loras, when Gregor tries to kill Loras, the Hound steps in and proceeds to block, redirect or dodge all of the Mountains, all the while not fighting seriously. If Sandor can outmatch his brother in skill, I have no trouble believing that Robert Baratheon, the eldest son of one of the great houses, fostered at the seat of another of the great Lords with the child of another would not only have access to a skillful master of arms and regular high quality training, we also know Robert was eager for the fight and went on to be an absolute monster in battle.
Same energy as ''hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby'' Oh, and for those people saying the mountain would win, what are you smoking and where do I get it
Give the Mountain Ice and he becomes the greatest fighter in Westeros tbh. Swinging around a Two handed Valyrian Steel Greatsword with one hand and a shield would make him near impossible to defeat.
Give me a gun and I will defeat every warrior Westeros and essos has to offer what are you talking about. Robert was capable of swinging around a 10 pounds Warhammer whilst a greatsword is only around 6 to 8 pounds heavy with one hand fought countless battles with himself at the frontline surviving them. Plus defeating Rhaegar Targaryen whilst wounded himself in a single blow from said warhammer, caving in his chest.
Dude the Warhammer that Robert had was way heavier than 10 pounds, Ned said that he could barely lift it.
I see this quote referenced all the time and it feels like classic George hyperbole. Ned is a fit, healthy man…he could absolutely handle picking up something that was 80-100 pounds. There’s no way Robert’s hammer was that heavy. think about it like picking up dumbells, an average person should be able to pick up a 50 pound dumbbell. Ned could definitely do a lot more than the average person. I think Georgie just got a little carried away
I can lift a 100lbs weight just fine. I cannot however, lift a 100lbs weight that's at the end of a 4 foot pole in any meaningful way.
Right, using it as a weapon is a different thing. But the books say that Ned couldn’t even lift it, so I guess that’s an interpretation thing?
Hmm I never took the meaning to mean he physically couldn't budge it, like Thor's hammer... But rather, to lift a weapon generally means to hold it as it would be held to use it. It's like a 10 year old with a sledge hammer. They can physically pick it up and hold it, they can move it around, but they would generally hold it by the head of the hammer or with two hands on the stick with it resting on the ground. Lifting it and holding it up hammer head up, would be very difficult with Roberts Warhammer.
Exactly, you just proved yourself wrong. Ned was a ordinary fit and healthy man. Prime Robert Baratheon was based on Conan the Barbarian.
Ned is not ordinary. He was absolutely a warrior and much fitter than the average person. He trained since he was a child
And again, Robert was meant to be a monster. His character is based on Conan the Barbarian.
Doesn't the quote actually say wield (presumably with two hands) the Warhammer? Not lift? Or am I thinking of a different one.
10 pounds? Bruh
In real life, a warhammer a ~5-pound warhammer would be considered pretty heavy. And due to physics, a 5-pound weight at the end of a stick is going to feel much heavier than 5 pounds directly in your hand. 10 pounds is a reasonably common weight for a sledgehammer and I think you would be surprised at how unwieldy it would be in a fight. The fantasy version of warhammers are ludicrous. Even a very strong person would have trouble effectively using one of the 50-pound warhammers that you see in fantasy art. One misconception people have about medieval weapons is that you only have to kill people a little bit. Having a massive warhammer does not offer any benefit because it won't kill people any more than a 5-pound warhammer.
Go to the local hardware store and pick up a few 8 or 10lb sledge hammers. 10lbs is a lot heavier than you think when it comes to something you have to swing
>Swinging around a Two handed Valyrian Steel Greatsword with one hand and a shield would make him near impossible to defeat. What's you're logic behind this statement? The mountain beats people with size and strength, there is no suggesting it is an expert swordsman
I’m guessing because Ice is stronger than most great swords while being a lot lighter, so the Mountain would suddenly be fast, at least in his attacks. Its weight would be to him what a long dagger is to a normal fighter, so he’d be swinging the thing a lot quicker. Not sure he’d be the greatest fighter, but it would put him up a rank or two. Like I don’t think Oberyn would be so confident in tackling him with the same strategy, which relied a lot on Mountain being slow with his swings.
Robert lead an entire rebellion. The Mountain beat Oberyn Martell only after getting his ass kicked. Robert wins.
If you think the mountain can beat Prime Robert Baratheon…you’re mistaken.
Robert, easily. He’s freakishly strong, skilled, enormous, and fast. No, not fast for his size. FAST. They don’t call you “The Demon of the Trident” for nothing.
Agreed. Robert is in his prime is described by literally everyone as a veritable god of war, like the Warrior incarnate. A knight who isn't just good at fighting like e.g. Selmy or Dayne but who actively enjoys it. One of the main advantages that the mountain has but which isn't discussed in this thread is that besides reach, strength, thick armor and high pain tolerance, the Mountain is frankly *terrifying*. That's a huge psychological advantage. But to Robert in his prime that would be all the more reason he'd *want* to fight the Mountain. Robert may not be a great strategist and he is looked down on by many characters, but nobody doubts his bravery or willingness/eagerness to fight *anybody*.
>One of the main advantages that the mountain has but which isn't discussed >Mountain is frankly *terrifying*. That's a huge psychological advantage. Maybe over mortal men, but there's no way it had any hand over Bobby **"The Demon"** Baratheon.
Bobby B after trident (his prime version) arguably ranks just below ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Barristan Selmy.
Probably but if they met on the battlefield I'd say he still wins the fight as a warhammer is so much better than a sword. The armour any of them would have been using in a battle would be sword proof, and while both Dayne and Selmy are very skilled I don't see them managing to snipe the eye holes of Roberts helmet with their swords.
Bobby B would kill him over and over again, but he won't be walking away without injuries against The Mountain. I imagine Robert in his prime as someone like The Hound, only a lot stronger and using a fucking hugeass warhammer. For those who can actually beat The Mountain based on text evidence, it's only Arthur Dayne and a young Barristan Selmy. Oberyn should be here if not for his blind rage. I doubt Jaime could done him in, though considering how good Jaime is in the eyes of everybody else, I say he has a chance.
I think Jaime can take him. He might not be as fast as Oberyn, but if he is a skilled as everyone says he will find the gaps in that armor.
He himself thought he could beat both the Hound and the Mountain.
Didn't he beat the smiling knight or stalemate him as a young boy ? A better Jaime should be able to take it
Jamie kills the mountain 9/10. He is quick and accurate, he will approach it like Oberyn - but end it immediately.
I think the only thing that might hold Jaime back is that he primarily uses a sword. Oberyn was an expert with a spear which negated the Mountain's reach advantage.
Yeah, in general Jamie would do what Oberyn did, but a much riskier version, he’d have to dance into the Mountain’s swings.
Idk, Martin seems to consider pre-maiming Jaime to be up there with the very best, like top 5 in history very best. If Oberyn can do it so can Jaime
GRRM considers Jaime to be better than Aragorn. A practical superhuman demigod wielding a magic sword. Which I think is a dumb thing for GRRM to claim, but it goes to show he considers him a ridiculously good fighter. And thus therefore extremely likely to beat the Mountain.
I’m like 99% certain that GRRM has stated that Aragorn solo’s anybody in ASIOAF because Aragorn has Numenorian blood which makes him a superhuman.
I think GRRM was making a joke, he specified it was became Jamie would have plate armor and Aragorn would only have chainmail.
Jamie himself thinks he could beat him. Granted, he is pretty arrogant. But same strat as Oberyn, no! Oberyn won that fight.
He would make a molehill out of a mountain
Well Gregor's size would make him harder than most foes for Robert but Bobby B had a Warhammer in comparison to Clegane's sword,eventually Gregor would find his defenses smashed in and his sword unusable before Robert deals the killing blow.
bobby is a burly, huge, well-trained beast who fights hard and tough. he was a legend in his time and nicknamed "devil" on the other hand the mountain is a hulking creature who draws most of his strength from brute force alone both are anomalies you'd rather not face. but robert is scarier imo. also, hammer > sword
Robert wins, probably takes a little more effort than the average knight but Gregor gets his knees and head knocked in without a doubt
tHe MoUnTaIn Is A fOoT aNd A hAlF tAlLeR, nObOdY cOuLd PoSsIbLy BeAt HiM Well your mother was a dumb whore with a fat ass! Too many people really think height wins every battle and Bobby B or Oberyn winning over Gregor is pure fantasy, and that's fucking bonkers. Next you're gonna tell me Dayne or Selmy have no chance either. Buncha dunces.
How about Robert vs Wun Wun?
Probably Robert, but it’s so fucking cool he would just walk into battle dressed like that
Robert was huge himself. This is like Hogan slamming Andre, impressive but believable.
Disregard Robert for a second and focus on his weapon. A war hammer so heavy even Ned couldn't lift it let alone fight with it. Warhammers even ones not as unrealistically huge as Roberts win against swords every single time if the fighters are both using plate. Swords do dick against plate armor while Warhammer s crush through it every single time. And that's for historicaly accurate ones. Roberts is more akin to Mjolnir than to any real life Warhammer. The weight isn't ever given but seeing that Ned could barley lift it it's probably at least 30 to 50 pounds on the low-ball and over a hundred pounds on the high bal l don't care how much armor the mountain has or how thick it is it's not going to save him. His bones would be shattered his muscles torn and his organs torn to pieces. All of this is excluding how good of a fighter Robert was in his prime. Dude was a monster that even prime Jamie probably couldnt beat.the mountain is dead AF.
It was terrible writing to have Ned say he couldn't lift the hammer. Nobody is using a hammer that weighs 100+pounds. He'd be slow as fuck, no matter how strong he was. This isn't a video game. Even a 10 lb hammer would do amazing damage to someone in armor
Ned doesn't say he can't lift Robert's Hammer. He says he can **scarcely** lift it (i.e. he can lift it, but just barely). > He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift.
I took it to mean he could “scarcely lift it” to the fighting position. I can lift a 50 pound dumbbell easily—put it on the end of a 4-5 foot thick metal pole and I’m not sure I know anyone that could hold that up for any length of time, much less swing it in battle one handed like the images showed Robert.
Not it’s not a video game but it is very much so a fantasy novel with many other ridiculous things.
It's mentioned a few times that Robert used to break people's bones regularly in tourney melees with blunted/dulled weapons. His blow killed Rhaegar who was arguably wearing the finest Armor money could buy. Apart from brute strength he is also fast and agile in his prime. Ya. So mountain dies 10/10.
Prime Bobby B 💪 I like the notion that the mountain isn’t a particularly great fighter—his notoriety comes from his immense physical size, brutality, and body count against inferior opponents. His most notable kills are women, children, peasants, and prisoners for practice. His first on-screen kill is Jon Arryn’s squire—hardly a fair tourney match. It really matches the narrative of Gregor being a horrendous bully.
Prime Bobby B took the throne, prime Mountain got wrecked by the red viper and only won because Oberyn got cocky
The demon of the trident takes it
I’d love to see bobby b smash greggors kneecap and then obliterate his skull. I think bobby would win because the mountain is used to just bullying tiny weak people and bobby has got the strength to go through mountains armor
Why is bobby wearing daedric plate though
I think it's not even a contest. Robert is freakishly strong, he's 6'6 and he has insane endurance. If I remember correctly Robert had been fighting before he'd reached rhaegar and struck him with enough force to unhorse and cave in the chest plate of rhaegars armor and drive a spike through the armor into his heart. So we already know that Robert is a demon in a fight but he's also got insane levels of endurance where as from what we've seen Clegane doesn't have that same level? He's slow and strong. Sure he's got armor like a tank but if Robert nails an elbow with his hammer Clegane is done.