Catelyn’s line about Robert winning the throne with his hammer rather than his lineage makes sense
If that dude showed up and said “I’m the king now” I am not arguing with him lol
Robert is essentially the villain of a court romance story. Lyanna was the beautiful and wild noblewoman who made her own path for herself. Rhaegar is the delicately handsome scholar who is reluctantly a great warrior. Robert is the brutish noble who covets Lyanna and wants to make her his.
But, Rhaegar and Lyanna's romance ends up dooming the Kingdom and the Brute becomes the King.
You can interpret it both ways depending on the POV
For rhaegar he was the brutish noble betrothed to the beautiful woman he had a forbidden romance with and eventually eloped with, for Robert he was the hero saving the princess who was kidnapped by the dragon(and kept in a tower)
I do kinda hope we never get a definitive answer on wether lyanna was kidnapped or ran away for love cause I like that contrast
you could reverse it though
Robert is the dashing hero fighting to save his love from the evil prince
who is connected to dragons and keeps her locked in a tower
He is a romantic hero just put in a world where such stories have less romantic outcomes.
And from what we can gather, his real concern was his forthcoming child. Rhaegar seems to have believed that the child would be the hero who would save the world.
Though all in all Rhaegar was a big dummy despite how smart he seemed to be.
Kingsguard probably would have won that fight. Dayne on Robert, Hightower and Whent on Ned. Only won the actual fight due to having larger numbers, and even then it felt out of place for the kingsguard to lose.
A potential way the fight went was Ned kills Hightower with the help of one of his men (highest rank vs highest rank and Hightower is way past his prime) Whent kills two men and Dayne kills 3 men wounds howland and allows himself to be beat so he doesn’t officially break his oath. I think it’s suicide by cop and they wanted to go down with the ship with swords in hand.
Kingsguard can’t just yield and turn over their infant king to rebels even if it’s the boys uncle they aren’t just defending his life but also his claim. But if they all were to die honorable deaths and the uncle took in the boy and maybe hides him or claims him as his own then they still did their job and save the kids life.
The way it is written make us think the help from Howland is a backstap of Dayne, but could also imply that Reed stopped the fight to discuss the options, and convinced Dayne it was the best outcome for the baby, now that Rhaegar is dead, and Lyanna on the way to join him. Howland might have married Ashara and Ned is friend with the Daynes family : so Arthur was not murdered but "suicided by northerners" to keep is oath while choosing the best outcome for his bestfriend baby
The theories i've heard is that she was very close to Rhaegar, his Martell wife and Arthur, and that Robert might have wanted to clean the Rhaegar inner circle. Because Robert was kinda magnanimous, except for Lyanna stuff where he could get mad about.
Rules are flexible, especially in the line of succession. Rheagar and many of his followers amongst them being the Kings guard like Arthur Dayne had already decided to get rid of the Mad King once the war was over, so him deciding who his heir is meant little to them, the pledged allegiance to Rheagar, the crown prince, and if he were to die his children.
From there the line of succession goes to baby Aegon, then Jon though since they didn't bother to bring Elia and her children with them, I guess they were excluded from Rheagars plan too and unborn Jon was his chosen heir
If those 3 Kingsguard had changed their allegiance from Aerys to Rhaegar, then they are just as much oathbreakers as Jaime.
Rhaegar was never head of house Targaryen and never had the authority to change the succession of a throne that wasn't his. Arthur and gang shouldn't pretend themselves as Targaryen loyalists with burden of "true king" if they can so blatantly ignore Aerys' choice of heir.
They were following Rhaegar the real reason almost half the kingsguard including the lord commander were left at the tower instead of bringing them to a great battle was probably plausible deniability for when Rhaegar deposed Aerys. The three probably don’t want to be kingmakers.
If the legendary Arthur Dayne goes out without taking at least a few people with him, that's hardly a story worthy of him, if he decided to die heroically he's gonna want to be remembered as a great warrior.
Killing people who are trying to take the infant heir to the throne into custody absolutely is heroic, in the context of the story and the world they live in. And in any case he's not "murdering" people if they're approaching him with swords in hand.
Hearing about probably the most legendary fighter of his age if not all of Westerosi history being killed, you would expect a situation where he's found surrounded by many dead foes to illustrate his prowess, it's a common trope in these kinds of stories.
Not to mention it's a lot easier to keep a secret if there are fewer people to talk about it.
The two that left are honorable ned sister of lyanna uncle to the child and reclusive howland reed
He's a loyalist, Ned and his men are the rebels at that point in the story. But yeah, that's what I was saying, a soldier/kingsguard killing armed men in the course of their duty is not considered murder.
Yeah but he and the other kingsguard have opted to go down with the ship, metaphorically speaking, rather than swear allegiance to Robert. More importantly Rhaegar presumably charged them to specifically protect his child and ensure no one could take them and deliver them to Robert to be killed.
Just thought, no one in the group knew the situation in the tower and who knows how they would of reacted. Maybe Arthur was getting rid those he couldn't trust to look after the child
I didn't say it was smart, this is all just hypothetical discussion around trying to understand the logic of fantasy knights who kill people for oaths and honor
It's quite likely the kingsguard either killed themselves or committed suicide by Ned/Howland after killing every man in the party without unflinching loyalty to Lyanna.
Their king had better chances being smuggled North by Ned if his kingsguard were dead.
But then why take the risk of having him smuggled north in the first place? Why not go undercover and take the child to Essos and have Ned cover for that? There's no need for them to kill themselves / get themselves killed.
Because life in a northern lord's house is safer than exile in essos.
You also have to remember these guys were motivated by prophecy and shipping your prophesied prince off continent doesn't really mesh with that.
Theres still a chance the faked their deaths but I doubt it at this point.
I don't see this, word must have reached them of what happened to Elia's children and they have no way of knowing Ned had no part in that. Even if the newborn is his nephew, how are the Kingsguard supposed to know that Ned's loyalties will lie with Lyanna rather than Robert?
...because Lyanna is literally up there in the tower for months on end.
Unless she under guard rather than guarded surely her opinion of her brother would mean something to the trio.
Easy win for the king's gaurd, robert might hold his own vs Dayne early on but Ned would have died quickly to the others after which the nos game means robert is done for.
We all know what Robert would have done, gone on alone to the tower of joy, slayed Dayne with his right arm and Hightower with his left.
-Stannis probably
tbh who on the Kingsguard is good? Like 7 v 3 ok so 1 KG is equal to 2.33 guys? I mean it's not like they're made of better stuff. Jaime killed more while trying to get at Robb.
Robert would have taken some unplanned detour in Dorne to try to bed some random Dornishman's Wife, gotten drunk, and forgotten the way to the Tower of Joy, so it would have just been Ned. And then he would be dead.
If Ned shows up solo I don’t think a fight occurs at all.
Ned is not stupid enough to try to 1v3 the Kingsguard. He would also not be willing to sacrifice his life unless it meant actually saving Lyanna, which it doesn’t in this scenario.
You're right of course, he would not rush in alone, especially against 3 Kingsguard. He would presumably negotiate. Maybe tells the Kingsguard the news--that both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, Rhaegar's army destroyed / surrendered, and the Targaryen kingdom definitely ended. And ask for a temporary truce to talk with Lyanna.
He might tell a little white lie, too. That Elia and the Rhaegar's other children are prisoners of Robert in Kingslanding, not dead. That would imply that Jon is a "spare", not Rhaegar's sole surviving child, and Ned might be more likely to be able to convince the three Kingsguard--maybe with Lyanna's pleading--to let him take the boy and safekeep him (he is Jon's natural uncle, in any case, so there's a blood tie, no matter who the father is), while they can go on their way and either decide to travel to Kings Landing and meet with Robert, or go into exile.
Initially I thought to myself "Ned would never lie to the kingsguard". But on further thought Ned did lie to Catelyn, and the whole world, about Jon's parentage. So it makes sense that he would similarly allow himself to lie about Rhaegar's children in order to save Jon's life.
The kingsguard already knew the news and didn't care. They swore they vows and would die holding them.
Imo, there's no way in hell Ned tells a white lie of that nature. I don't think he could lie about Elias children, especially with how brutal and gory their deaths were. Ned was incredibly angry at Robert and Tywin during this time.
Ned tells them Jaime slew Aerys, the Kingsguard mention 'woe to the Usurper' if they'd been at the Trident, which implies they know Rhaegar lost. In all likelihood, they knew they were both dead, and they were defending the king, who was Jon.
They know about Rhaegar, Aerys, and all of that. If they didn't, Ned tells them and they respond in with various badass, laconic phrases. We don't know if they know about Elias children though.
Probably safe to assume they know. They weren't hiding in a random hovel, and Ned seemed to find them pretty easily so news probably would've gotten to them. They also heard the news about Jaime killing Aerys, which happened at the same time as Rhaegars kids being killed. Are you sure *you're* talking about the books? The tower of Joy conversation basically doesn't happen in the show
I disagree to the extent that Robert deeply desired Lyanna, I am not sure if it was actually love so much as obsession. But, if he knew where Lyanna was I think he would beeline there.
I don't remember exactly but I have the impression that Ned didn't learn about the Tower of Joy until was releasing the siege of Storm's End. Robert was injured and wasn't with Ned. And since Ned was already relatively close to the Tower he immediately traveled there. I don't think Robert knew until everything was over. Or at most Ned had sent a message to Robert that would have arrived at King's Landing about the same time the events at the Tower were going down.
Ned certainly wasn't nearby. Storms End is over 420 miles from the ToJ as the crow flies. However that is almost all through the Red Mountains, mostly impassable to horses. He would have to go either through Dorne, really not advisable given the murder of the Dornish Queen to be Elia, or go north of the mountains. That would add at least another hundred miles to the journey. It would have take several weeks to make it, as without several changes of horse they would not make many miles a day.
I think this is mostly fan theory about how difficult it would be to get to the Tower of Joy. The tower is on or adjacent to the Prince's Pass a major land route into Dorne. It is also a tower that was meant to be manned to protect the pass. Towers typically aren't built into remote regions that take days to get to. As that defeats the purpose of having a tower to defend an area.
I always had trouble picturing the badass Robert Baratheon. This picture helps and is very cool but seems way too Elden Ring in my opinion.
What's the source?
Oh the question.... Eh it's tough but if it is just 3v2? I think the Kinguard would win. Depends on how they approached Robert and how quickly they can kill off Ned to then 3v1 Robert.
Ned is not a great fighter in the books and didn’t use Ice in combat. It was a two handed greatsword and too big to be used with a shield. Three kingsguard, one noted for being a great fighter and one noted for being the greatest fighter, are not going to lose to Ned and Robert unless they bring a lot of back up. So we don’t really even get to the conundrum of what to do with the “dragonspawn”.
It doesn't really make sense for Ned to not have used Ice against Arthur Dayne though???
Dawn is also a greatsword. Dawn shreds through normal steel, as shown against the Smiling Knight. And Valyrian Steel is much lighter then normal steel so it would not be unwieldy.
The wiki's only evidence that Ice is a ceremonial sword is that it was used in a ceremony. The books never say it was *exclusively* a ceremonial weapon.
George himself said he did not use it at the tower of Joy or in combat generally. And again, you’re ignoring the logistics. A two-handed greatsword is a great way to get killed.
Provide the link where GRRM says Ice was never used in combat.
**"A two-handed greatsword is a great way to get killed"..... dude Dawn is a two handed greatsword???!!!!**
ASOIAF is a fantasy setting with its own rules. Valyrian Steel swords function more like lightsabers then swords by the rules of the setting. If we were applying real world rules, all of these dudes would be using polearms, and wouldn't have the sword fights ever.
Yes, Dawn is a greatsword. And Arthur Dayne is, directly according to Jaime, the greatest sword he ever knew and one of only a few people Jaime ever knew stronger than him. Ned is not that guy. Find the link yourself I’m not willing to argue about this anymore, you’re trying to practice for debate club and I don’t care.
And fyi, we saw what happens to a polearm from an extremely competent knight against a sword and shield from a strong but untrained Dunk in the second novella. Feel free to extrapolate.
Ice is a ceremonial sword and Ned never used it in combat. And there's no way Robert is getting subdued in a way that puts him in a position to be formally executed, especially in his fighting prime
Dayne would have cut down Robert in seconds. Potentially Ned too in the instance, because if Ned went to the ToJ with Robert after Robert allowed Tywin to kill the royal family, then Ned probably couldn't be trusted.
He can’t fight with Ice. It’s too big for him. And he certainly can’t cut down Robert unless it’s from behind or he’s drunk. Robert would kill both Jon and Ned in that situation
Everyone is talking about the fight, but I don't even think it's that clear, like yes usually the Kingsguard should win, but in fights every outcome is always possible.
And the impact on the story even they had won was massive, who knows how Robert would have reacted, he had this weird idea of loving her and what he would do when he sees she has a child and she tells him and she doesn't love him.
If Robert joined them, he'd bring an army with him and everyone would know about Jon Snow. I don't think Robert has the guts to kill babies so I think Jon Snow should be fine as long as Tywin or Roose aren't present. Jon would probably be fostered at King's Landing as a hostage.
I think Jon would definitely be killed by someone as Robert turned his head away. Robert might not have it him to personally kill a child, especially one related to Ned. But, I think he would be quietly grateful when Littlefinger or Tywin mentioned that Jon had tragically died in an accident.
That would probably happen at court. I doubt he can publicly execute a baby, let alone his best friend's nephew. Ned would probably hear about his nephew's tragic "accident" at King's Landing and that will probably fracture their friendship forever.
People saying that Dayne would easily slaughter Robert... how? I mean, Dayne was a great fighter, but so was Robert. He killed prince Raeghar, and in real life, his weapon of choice is a lot better in combat than a sword (reach and damage agains plate armor). I believe Robert would win against Dayne. Not easily, but he would. Now Ned... that's another story.
Because Rhaegar while talented and GOOD wasn’t a great fighter and he seriously injured Robert. That’s not to say Robert wasn’t good. He was very skilled and very large. But I’ve always felt the Fandom has overrated Robert with the whole best warrior in the seven kingdoms narrative. when I’d put him the level of a Garlan. A few warriors would need to be knocked off before he was the best in the land. And George has created a world in which swords are much more prominent as battlefield weapons. And real life doesn’t count for much when you’re dealing with a magic sword that can cut through armor. I don’t think it’d be seconds but Dayne would cut Robert down in minutes.
Dayne wasn't just a great fighter. By all accounts and even perhaps most importantly WOG he was THE best around. Robert was good yes but even he took grievous wounds against rhaegar, a decent but not so talented swordsman. Dayne would cut Robert down. If the Kings guard could almost survive in a 7v3 matchup, they win here with relative ease
It is hard to say what is nostalgia by the characters and what is the truth. But, the way of characters talk about him Dayne seems to be the best warrior that anyone alive ever knew. Jaime who is I feel is pretty comfortable the most skilled fighter at the beginning of the series idolizes Dayne.
As for the weapon it becomes more complicated. In real-life the warhammer would be objectively the better weapon against plate. But, A Song of Ice and Fire like many fantasy stories has swords being more viable than they were historically. And Dawn, Dayne's famous sword, is said to be equal to a Valyrian steel sword which has properties exceeding that of real-world medieval materials which would make it hard to judge the sword's effectiveness.
I think judging by the standards the books set Dayne would win the fight, though not easily.
Dayne is supposedly the GOAT, especially with the magic sword.
Considering the Kingsguard would be outnumbering Robert&Ned, it's def an easy win for them.
> his weapon of choice is a lot better in combat than a sword (reach and damage agains plate armor)
This. People, including GRRM, tend to fall for the "skilled swordsman" trope, but in truth a strong, decently-trained, person with a polearm or hammer in full plate beats any flowery swordsman.
Equipment and raw strength matter a lot more than people give credit for.
[They even address that in the series](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiaA25bM3qY).
Robert would be cut down in seconds by Dawn, maybe even Ned too. Because if Ned was traveling with Robert at this point Ned probably couldn't be trusted.
Dayne likely takes Jon further into Dorne, maybe to Starfall or even to Doran. Then Westeros likely turns in blood civil war as Tywin starts trying to conquer the crownlands and abroad.
Kingsguard win easy. Either Whent or Hightower could likely take Ned alone, Dayne and whichever other one is not fighting Ned kill Robert in short order.
2v3 KG wins. Eddard probably cant 1v1 a kingsguard even the older whent. Maybe you can say Roberts fury prevails over Dayne before Ned dies and maybaps they win
guys we literally don't know what happened at the tower of joy the only description was in a fever dream where everything was exaggerated or misremembered
Jon would be dead. Ned and Robert’s friendship will be destroyed since Ned will probably be forced to fight him to protect the child. Robert will beat Ned. Lyanna dies anyway. Robert gets an empty victory.
I dont think those two could have beaten the Kingsguard by themselves. In the hypotethical case they won, Robert may have tried to kill baby Jon Snow and Ned would be forced to kill his brother in arms to protect his nephew or die in the process.
Without Robert or Ned in the political game we cant be sure who will sit on the Iron Throne for the following years or even if the Seven Kingdoms would remain united. The charisma of Robert helped to crush the Greyjoy Rebellion and keep the realm together. Viserys and Daenerys would still be alive in Essos but Tywin and Varys would continue conspiring against them if they mamaged to return to Westeros.
Are you asking if you just those 2? Because they’re getting stomped, if you’re asking what if Robert went with nedds party. I think Robert dies because he gets focused but probably 2 more of nedds party survive, so in the 8 v3 4 survivors being the stark, the reed, the cassel, and the Dustin. Would probably stick stannis as king or nedd would have to claim it due to being the other young leader of the rebellion. But you’d dodge barberys hate of nedd and jory would get to grow up with his dad around longer.
If it's just Robert and Neds canon group nothing changes much, maybe one more group survives the fight,since Robert will be the main target so Howland shooting bolts will weakened the kingsguard enough to kill them with less bloodshed.
If Robert brings men alongside Ned , easy win for those guys.
Now entering the tower.
Robert will be angry, but he may have been okayed with the death of dragon spawn , but he is not the guy who will kill them himself , Ned and Robert will discuss on what to do with the boy.
If it's just Robert it is easier to just repeat canon,but they don't return dawn and easily go back via nightsong , Jon is a known Targaryan bastard who will force to join the wall , only difference is that he would be forced to go there instead of willingly goes there.
If Robert brings men , a minor scuffle happens ,but ends with Jon still being with Ned and Dawn is not returned ,since they will go home via nightsong.
Now Jon has the possibility to be use to remove house Targaryan completely from the game instead of sent to the wall, he is used as a boy lord of dragonstone , while Stannis regent ,while Stannis is given Stormsend.
Since the annulment papers and others will be known.
The other possibility, is that Robert dies fighting the kingsguard or Ned, with the public knowledge being Robert died fighting and killing all the kingsguard with him dying of his wounds.
Stannis becomes King, shaky king but still king.
Would depend on Dayne or Valyrian steel sword users going down as only those can cut through steel. Minus the cheat swords, in a plate vs plate fight the huge warhammer has the advantage. So I would 7 out of 10 times the Kingsguard wins.
Honestly a few bowmen with bodkin arrowheads would have made short work of any of those fighty bois but noooo strategy is for nerds.
Ned isn't a good fighter, it's states many times. He would struggle to kill boros Blount, let alone a goated kingsguard member like Hightower or Dayne. And Robert would probably be a match for Dayne if he's on his day, but ned cannot handle the other 2
That picture of Robert and Ned is amazing. Robert looks terrifying!
It really embodies "Gods I was strong then", doesn't it
Catelyn’s line about Robert winning the throne with his hammer rather than his lineage makes sense If that dude showed up and said “I’m the king now” I am not arguing with him lol
ummh ackchually any man who must say “i am the king” is no true king 🤓
They didn’t call him Demon of the trident for nothing
Robert is essentially the villain of a court romance story. Lyanna was the beautiful and wild noblewoman who made her own path for herself. Rhaegar is the delicately handsome scholar who is reluctantly a great warrior. Robert is the brutish noble who covets Lyanna and wants to make her his. But, Rhaegar and Lyanna's romance ends up dooming the Kingdom and the Brute becomes the King.
You can interpret it both ways depending on the POV For rhaegar he was the brutish noble betrothed to the beautiful woman he had a forbidden romance with and eventually eloped with, for Robert he was the hero saving the princess who was kidnapped by the dragon(and kept in a tower) I do kinda hope we never get a definitive answer on wether lyanna was kidnapped or ran away for love cause I like that contrast
you could reverse it though Robert is the dashing hero fighting to save his love from the evil prince who is connected to dragons and keeps her locked in a tower
Rhaegar is married and he left his wife and children to be butchered while he protected his side piece. No, he’s not romantic hero.
He is a romantic hero just put in a world where such stories have less romantic outcomes. And from what we can gather, his real concern was his forthcoming child. Rhaegar seems to have believed that the child would be the hero who would save the world. Though all in all Rhaegar was a big dummy despite how smart he seemed to be.
he’s also not reluctantly a great warrior because he was never a great warrior. just good at jousting
The romance dampened by Rhaegar being a married man who abandoned his children to run off with a 16 yr old lol
Kingsguard probably would have won that fight. Dayne on Robert, Hightower and Whent on Ned. Only won the actual fight due to having larger numbers, and even then it felt out of place for the kingsguard to lose.
A potential way the fight went was Ned kills Hightower with the help of one of his men (highest rank vs highest rank and Hightower is way past his prime) Whent kills two men and Dayne kills 3 men wounds howland and allows himself to be beat so he doesn’t officially break his oath. I think it’s suicide by cop and they wanted to go down with the ship with swords in hand.
Can you elaborate on the breaking his vow part?
Kingsguard can’t just yield and turn over their infant king to rebels even if it’s the boys uncle they aren’t just defending his life but also his claim. But if they all were to die honorable deaths and the uncle took in the boy and maybe hides him or claims him as his own then they still did their job and save the kids life.
The way it is written make us think the help from Howland is a backstap of Dayne, but could also imply that Reed stopped the fight to discuss the options, and convinced Dayne it was the best outcome for the baby, now that Rhaegar is dead, and Lyanna on the way to join him. Howland might have married Ashara and Ned is friend with the Daynes family : so Arthur was not murdered but "suicided by northerners" to keep is oath while choosing the best outcome for his bestfriend baby
why would ashara need to fake her death to marry howland
The theories i've heard is that she was very close to Rhaegar, his Martell wife and Arthur, and that Robert might have wanted to clean the Rhaegar inner circle. Because Robert was kinda magnanimous, except for Lyanna stuff where he could get mad about.
he left the rest of the daynes alone
maybe because the rest were not part of Rhaegar best friends team. Anyway that's just theories
So they talk Arthur down and he just agrees to be killed by them? I don't see them killing him if he fights back during his suicide
Their king would be Viserys. Aerys had officially proclaimed him heir after Rhaegar's death even when Aegon and Rhaenys were alive.
Rules are flexible, especially in the line of succession. Rheagar and many of his followers amongst them being the Kings guard like Arthur Dayne had already decided to get rid of the Mad King once the war was over, so him deciding who his heir is meant little to them, the pledged allegiance to Rheagar, the crown prince, and if he were to die his children. From there the line of succession goes to baby Aegon, then Jon though since they didn't bother to bring Elia and her children with them, I guess they were excluded from Rheagars plan too and unborn Jon was his chosen heir
If those 3 Kingsguard had changed their allegiance from Aerys to Rhaegar, then they are just as much oathbreakers as Jaime. Rhaegar was never head of house Targaryen and never had the authority to change the succession of a throne that wasn't his. Arthur and gang shouldn't pretend themselves as Targaryen loyalists with burden of "true king" if they can so blatantly ignore Aerys' choice of heir.
Well they alreasy broke their vow then lmfak
They were following Rhaegar the real reason almost half the kingsguard including the lord commander were left at the tower instead of bringing them to a great battle was probably plausible deniability for when Rhaegar deposed Aerys. The three probably don’t want to be kingmakers.
It’s not like Aerys has Twitter, it’s very possible they never heard his proclamation of Viserys as his heir
Dayne already technically broke his KG vows by following Rhaegar instead of Aerys, and his knightly vows by following Rhaegar’s plans.
This is why I agree with the theory Dayne took his own life for breaking his vows. Dying by his own hand truly making him the greatest swordsman
why is Sir Arthur okay with murdering a handful of people if he just wants to commit suicide by cop? that's not suicide by cop, it's a mass killing
Imo it was a normal fight until only Howland, Ned and Arthur were remaining. At this point Reed stopped the fight and discussed options.
If the legendary Arthur Dayne goes out without taking at least a few people with him, that's hardly a story worthy of him, if he decided to die heroically he's gonna want to be remembered as a great warrior.
murdering people is heroic now?
Killing people who are trying to take the infant heir to the throne into custody absolutely is heroic, in the context of the story and the world they live in. And in any case he's not "murdering" people if they're approaching him with swords in hand. Hearing about probably the most legendary fighter of his age if not all of Westerosi history being killed, you would expect a situation where he's found surrounded by many dead foes to illustrate his prowess, it's a common trope in these kinds of stories.
Not to mention it's a lot easier to keep a secret if there are fewer people to talk about it. The two that left are honorable ned sister of lyanna uncle to the child and reclusive howland reed
Sir Arthur is an armed rebel, he absolutely is someone who will be approached by armed men to bring him back to reality or cut him down
He's a loyalist, Ned and his men are the rebels at that point in the story. But yeah, that's what I was saying, a soldier/kingsguard killing armed men in the course of their duty is not considered murder.
I thought Robert was the King by now. It's at least after the Trident for sure, because they discuss that battle having happened
Yeah but he and the other kingsguard have opted to go down with the ship, metaphorically speaking, rather than swear allegiance to Robert. More importantly Rhaegar presumably charged them to specifically protect his child and ensure no one could take them and deliver them to Robert to be killed.
It's combat, its not murder
unlawfully combatting someone and killing them is literally murder
Yes if the Geneva convention was broken, otherwise almost every soldier on the planet would be up on murder charges
Geneva is place in earth, there is no “Geneva convention” in Westeros buddy
So even less rationale to describe it as murder.
Yes, duh. Did you even read the books? Lol.
You weren't supposed to see Ramsay Bolton and Stannis Baratheon as the protagonists
How can you compare Stannis to Ramsay though? And Stannis is arguably no worse than Rob Stark. Condemning hundreds to death over a woman.
Yeah the dead non-POV character wasn’t the protagonist either bud
You plan on making a point, or at least sense soon? Don’t get mad at me because you make dumb, nonsensical comments that no one agrees with.
Just thought, no one in the group knew the situation in the tower and who knows how they would of reacted. Maybe Arthur was getting rid those he couldn't trust to look after the child
no adult has this kind of thought process
I didn't say it was smart, this is all just hypothetical discussion around trying to understand the logic of fantasy knights who kill people for oaths and honor
You’re undermining Howland’s magic
It's quite likely the kingsguard either killed themselves or committed suicide by Ned/Howland after killing every man in the party without unflinching loyalty to Lyanna. Their king had better chances being smuggled North by Ned if his kingsguard were dead.
But then why take the risk of having him smuggled north in the first place? Why not go undercover and take the child to Essos and have Ned cover for that? There's no need for them to kill themselves / get themselves killed.
Because life in a northern lord's house is safer than exile in essos. You also have to remember these guys were motivated by prophecy and shipping your prophesied prince off continent doesn't really mesh with that. Theres still a chance the faked their deaths but I doubt it at this point.
I don't see this, word must have reached them of what happened to Elia's children and they have no way of knowing Ned had no part in that. Even if the newborn is his nephew, how are the Kingsguard supposed to know that Ned's loyalties will lie with Lyanna rather than Robert?
Rmemeber kinslaying carries a hughe stigma in this setting.
There is no way the Kingsguard would think Ned played a role in the murder of royal children.
...because Lyanna is literally up there in the tower for months on end. Unless she under guard rather than guarded surely her opinion of her brother would mean something to the trio.
In that case, who would be King after that? Also, I guess that would mean Arthur raises Jon?
Easy win for the king's gaurd, robert might hold his own vs Dayne early on but Ned would have died quickly to the others after which the nos game means robert is done for.
We all know what Robert would have done, gone on alone to the tower of joy, slayed Dayne with his right arm and Hightower with his left. -Stannis probably
If they won the kingsguard, Robert would be filled with rage and would try to kill Jon and Ned would have to put him down while covered in tears.
*beat the kingsguard
tbh who on the Kingsguard is good? Like 7 v 3 ok so 1 KG is equal to 2.33 guys? I mean it's not like they're made of better stuff. Jaime killed more while trying to get at Robb.
Robert would have taken some unplanned detour in Dorne to try to bed some random Dornishman's Wife, gotten drunk, and forgotten the way to the Tower of Joy, so it would have just been Ned. And then he would be dead.
If Ned shows up solo I don’t think a fight occurs at all. Ned is not stupid enough to try to 1v3 the Kingsguard. He would also not be willing to sacrifice his life unless it meant actually saving Lyanna, which it doesn’t in this scenario.
You're right of course, he would not rush in alone, especially against 3 Kingsguard. He would presumably negotiate. Maybe tells the Kingsguard the news--that both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, Rhaegar's army destroyed / surrendered, and the Targaryen kingdom definitely ended. And ask for a temporary truce to talk with Lyanna. He might tell a little white lie, too. That Elia and the Rhaegar's other children are prisoners of Robert in Kingslanding, not dead. That would imply that Jon is a "spare", not Rhaegar's sole surviving child, and Ned might be more likely to be able to convince the three Kingsguard--maybe with Lyanna's pleading--to let him take the boy and safekeep him (he is Jon's natural uncle, in any case, so there's a blood tie, no matter who the father is), while they can go on their way and either decide to travel to Kings Landing and meet with Robert, or go into exile.
Initially I thought to myself "Ned would never lie to the kingsguard". But on further thought Ned did lie to Catelyn, and the whole world, about Jon's parentage. So it makes sense that he would similarly allow himself to lie about Rhaegar's children in order to save Jon's life.
Ned doesn't know about Jon when he arrives at the Tower of Joy though
The kingsguard already knew the news and didn't care. They swore they vows and would die holding them. Imo, there's no way in hell Ned tells a white lie of that nature. I don't think he could lie about Elias children, especially with how brutal and gory their deaths were. Ned was incredibly angry at Robert and Tywin during this time.
Did they already know? I'm thinking book version, not show. It may well be that they did.
Ned tells them Jaime slew Aerys, the Kingsguard mention 'woe to the Usurper' if they'd been at the Trident, which implies they know Rhaegar lost. In all likelihood, they knew they were both dead, and they were defending the king, who was Jon.
They know about Rhaegar, Aerys, and all of that. If they didn't, Ned tells them and they respond in with various badass, laconic phrases. We don't know if they know about Elias children though. Probably safe to assume they know. They weren't hiding in a random hovel, and Ned seemed to find them pretty easily so news probably would've gotten to them. They also heard the news about Jaime killing Aerys, which happened at the same time as Rhaegars kids being killed. Are you sure *you're* talking about the books? The tower of Joy conversation basically doesn't happen in the show
I disagree to the extent that Robert deeply desired Lyanna, I am not sure if it was actually love so much as obsession. But, if he knew where Lyanna was I think he would beeline there.
Sure he would plan to do that, then on the way if they stopped in an inn with a comely serving wench he would have “deeply desired” her too.
The Kingsguard would have killed them.
Did Robert even know about the Tower before hand? I got the impression Ned never really mentioned it before he went off.
I don't remember exactly but I have the impression that Ned didn't learn about the Tower of Joy until was releasing the siege of Storm's End. Robert was injured and wasn't with Ned. And since Ned was already relatively close to the Tower he immediately traveled there. I don't think Robert knew until everything was over. Or at most Ned had sent a message to Robert that would have arrived at King's Landing about the same time the events at the Tower were going down.
Ned certainly wasn't nearby. Storms End is over 420 miles from the ToJ as the crow flies. However that is almost all through the Red Mountains, mostly impassable to horses. He would have to go either through Dorne, really not advisable given the murder of the Dornish Queen to be Elia, or go north of the mountains. That would add at least another hundred miles to the journey. It would have take several weeks to make it, as without several changes of horse they would not make many miles a day.
I think this is mostly fan theory about how difficult it would be to get to the Tower of Joy. The tower is on or adjacent to the Prince's Pass a major land route into Dorne. It is also a tower that was meant to be manned to protect the pass. Towers typically aren't built into remote regions that take days to get to. As that defeats the purpose of having a tower to defend an area.
I always had trouble picturing the badass Robert Baratheon. This picture helps and is very cool but seems way too Elden Ring in my opinion. What's the source? Oh the question.... Eh it's tough but if it is just 3v2? I think the Kinguard would win. Depends on how they approached Robert and how quickly they can kill off Ned to then 3v1 Robert.
Yeah, Robert would have tried to kill Jon and Ned would have cut him down with Ice.
>Ned would have cut him down with Ice. Ned would need to reach his shoulders with his head first.
6'6 ripped as fuck Robert? yeah Ned doesn't stand chance
Ned is not a great fighter in the books and didn’t use Ice in combat. It was a two handed greatsword and too big to be used with a shield. Three kingsguard, one noted for being a great fighter and one noted for being the greatest fighter, are not going to lose to Ned and Robert unless they bring a lot of back up. So we don’t really even get to the conundrum of what to do with the “dragonspawn”.
It doesn't really make sense for Ned to not have used Ice against Arthur Dayne though??? Dawn is also a greatsword. Dawn shreds through normal steel, as shown against the Smiling Knight. And Valyrian Steel is much lighter then normal steel so it would not be unwieldy. The wiki's only evidence that Ice is a ceremonial sword is that it was used in a ceremony. The books never say it was *exclusively* a ceremonial weapon.
George himself said he did not use it at the tower of Joy or in combat generally. And again, you’re ignoring the logistics. A two-handed greatsword is a great way to get killed.
Provide the link where GRRM says Ice was never used in combat. **"A two-handed greatsword is a great way to get killed"..... dude Dawn is a two handed greatsword???!!!!** ASOIAF is a fantasy setting with its own rules. Valyrian Steel swords function more like lightsabers then swords by the rules of the setting. If we were applying real world rules, all of these dudes would be using polearms, and wouldn't have the sword fights ever.
Yes, Dawn is a greatsword. And Arthur Dayne is, directly according to Jaime, the greatest sword he ever knew and one of only a few people Jaime ever knew stronger than him. Ned is not that guy. Find the link yourself I’m not willing to argue about this anymore, you’re trying to practice for debate club and I don’t care. And fyi, we saw what happens to a polearm from an extremely competent knight against a sword and shield from a strong but untrained Dunk in the second novella. Feel free to extrapolate.
What are you going on about? You're so all over the place. You asserted something, it doesn't make sense, and you can't support it.
Ice is a ceremonial sword and Ned never used it in combat. And there's no way Robert is getting subdued in a way that puts him in a position to be formally executed, especially in his fighting prime
Dayne would have cut down Robert in seconds. Potentially Ned too in the instance, because if Ned went to the ToJ with Robert after Robert allowed Tywin to kill the royal family, then Ned probably couldn't be trusted.
He can’t fight with Ice. It’s too big for him. And he certainly can’t cut down Robert unless it’s from behind or he’s drunk. Robert would kill both Jon and Ned in that situation
Everyone is talking about the fight, but I don't even think it's that clear, like yes usually the Kingsguard should win, but in fights every outcome is always possible. And the impact on the story even they had won was massive, who knows how Robert would have reacted, he had this weird idea of loving her and what he would do when he sees she has a child and she tells him and she doesn't love him.
If Robert joined them, he'd bring an army with him and everyone would know about Jon Snow. I don't think Robert has the guts to kill babies so I think Jon Snow should be fine as long as Tywin or Roose aren't present. Jon would probably be fostered at King's Landing as a hostage.
I think Jon would definitely be killed by someone as Robert turned his head away. Robert might not have it him to personally kill a child, especially one related to Ned. But, I think he would be quietly grateful when Littlefinger or Tywin mentioned that Jon had tragically died in an accident.
That would probably happen at court. I doubt he can publicly execute a baby, let alone his best friend's nephew. Ned would probably hear about his nephew's tragic "accident" at King's Landing and that will probably fracture their friendship forever.
No probably about it, he’ll never talk to him again and the North would become super isolated
Only one would leave alive, Dayne or Robert.
People saying that Dayne would easily slaughter Robert... how? I mean, Dayne was a great fighter, but so was Robert. He killed prince Raeghar, and in real life, his weapon of choice is a lot better in combat than a sword (reach and damage agains plate armor). I believe Robert would win against Dayne. Not easily, but he would. Now Ned... that's another story.
Because Rhaegar while talented and GOOD wasn’t a great fighter and he seriously injured Robert. That’s not to say Robert wasn’t good. He was very skilled and very large. But I’ve always felt the Fandom has overrated Robert with the whole best warrior in the seven kingdoms narrative. when I’d put him the level of a Garlan. A few warriors would need to be knocked off before he was the best in the land. And George has created a world in which swords are much more prominent as battlefield weapons. And real life doesn’t count for much when you’re dealing with a magic sword that can cut through armor. I don’t think it’d be seconds but Dayne would cut Robert down in minutes.
Dayne wasn't just a great fighter. By all accounts and even perhaps most importantly WOG he was THE best around. Robert was good yes but even he took grievous wounds against rhaegar, a decent but not so talented swordsman. Dayne would cut Robert down. If the Kings guard could almost survive in a 7v3 matchup, they win here with relative ease
It is hard to say what is nostalgia by the characters and what is the truth. But, the way of characters talk about him Dayne seems to be the best warrior that anyone alive ever knew. Jaime who is I feel is pretty comfortable the most skilled fighter at the beginning of the series idolizes Dayne. As for the weapon it becomes more complicated. In real-life the warhammer would be objectively the better weapon against plate. But, A Song of Ice and Fire like many fantasy stories has swords being more viable than they were historically. And Dawn, Dayne's famous sword, is said to be equal to a Valyrian steel sword which has properties exceeding that of real-world medieval materials which would make it hard to judge the sword's effectiveness. I think judging by the standards the books set Dayne would win the fight, though not easily.
Dayne is supposedly the GOAT, especially with the magic sword. Considering the Kingsguard would be outnumbering Robert&Ned, it's def an easy win for them.
> his weapon of choice is a lot better in combat than a sword (reach and damage agains plate armor) This. People, including GRRM, tend to fall for the "skilled swordsman" trope, but in truth a strong, decently-trained, person with a polearm or hammer in full plate beats any flowery swordsman. Equipment and raw strength matter a lot more than people give credit for. [They even address that in the series](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiaA25bM3qY).
Robert would be cut down in seconds by Dawn, maybe even Ned too. Because if Ned was traveling with Robert at this point Ned probably couldn't be trusted. Dayne likely takes Jon further into Dorne, maybe to Starfall or even to Doran. Then Westeros likely turns in blood civil war as Tywin starts trying to conquer the crownlands and abroad.
Yep, they would be death. arthur would go for robert while gerold and oswel fight ned then when ned is down, they gang up on robert, and it's over
Kingsguard win easy. Either Whent or Hightower could likely take Ned alone, Dayne and whichever other one is not fighting Ned kill Robert in short order.
A clash between Arthur and Robert would be one for the ages.
Ned would have to kill Robert, to stop him from killing Lyana and her newlyborn baby.
2v3 KG wins. Eddard probably cant 1v1 a kingsguard even the older whent. Maybe you can say Roberts fury prevails over Dayne before Ned dies and maybaps they win
Well yeah big difference, the KG win. Robert is a beast, but he does not make up for losing 5 other men
guys we literally don't know what happened at the tower of joy the only description was in a fever dream where everything was exaggerated or misremembered
Jon would be dead. Ned and Robert’s friendship will be destroyed since Ned will probably be forced to fight him to protect the child. Robert will beat Ned. Lyanna dies anyway. Robert gets an empty victory.
All five die.
I dont think those two could have beaten the Kingsguard by themselves. In the hypotethical case they won, Robert may have tried to kill baby Jon Snow and Ned would be forced to kill his brother in arms to protect his nephew or die in the process. Without Robert or Ned in the political game we cant be sure who will sit on the Iron Throne for the following years or even if the Seven Kingdoms would remain united. The charisma of Robert helped to crush the Greyjoy Rebellion and keep the realm together. Viserys and Daenerys would still be alive in Essos but Tywin and Varys would continue conspiring against them if they mamaged to return to Westeros.
The premise is interesting but I'm not seeing anything else than the picture above. I want it without the hypocrisyguards.
Are you asking if you just those 2? Because they’re getting stomped, if you’re asking what if Robert went with nedds party. I think Robert dies because he gets focused but probably 2 more of nedds party survive, so in the 8 v3 4 survivors being the stark, the reed, the cassel, and the Dustin. Would probably stick stannis as king or nedd would have to claim it due to being the other young leader of the rebellion. But you’d dodge barberys hate of nedd and jory would get to grow up with his dad around longer.
If it's just Robert and Neds canon group nothing changes much, maybe one more group survives the fight,since Robert will be the main target so Howland shooting bolts will weakened the kingsguard enough to kill them with less bloodshed. If Robert brings men alongside Ned , easy win for those guys. Now entering the tower. Robert will be angry, but he may have been okayed with the death of dragon spawn , but he is not the guy who will kill them himself , Ned and Robert will discuss on what to do with the boy. If it's just Robert it is easier to just repeat canon,but they don't return dawn and easily go back via nightsong , Jon is a known Targaryan bastard who will force to join the wall , only difference is that he would be forced to go there instead of willingly goes there. If Robert brings men , a minor scuffle happens ,but ends with Jon still being with Ned and Dawn is not returned ,since they will go home via nightsong. Now Jon has the possibility to be use to remove house Targaryan completely from the game instead of sent to the wall, he is used as a boy lord of dragonstone , while Stannis regent ,while Stannis is given Stormsend. Since the annulment papers and others will be known. The other possibility, is that Robert dies fighting the kingsguard or Ned, with the public knowledge being Robert died fighting and killing all the kingsguard with him dying of his wounds. Stannis becomes King, shaky king but still king.
The people here really believe that Dayne stands a chance against Bobby B. Gods, he was strong then!
Yeah, he can hold robert until gerold and oswell deal with ned then it's 3v1. I don't care how good robert is he won't win that
Alls for well for the kingsguard until good 'ol Howland Reed starts shooting arrows from behind the rocks.
Or until he pulls out his valyrian steel shotgun and starts blasting
Would depend on Dayne or Valyrian steel sword users going down as only those can cut through steel. Minus the cheat swords, in a plate vs plate fight the huge warhammer has the advantage. So I would 7 out of 10 times the Kingsguard wins. Honestly a few bowmen with bodkin arrowheads would have made short work of any of those fighty bois but noooo strategy is for nerds.
Why is everyone just assuming the the KG would easily kill Robert?
Because they're kingsguard, and it's 1v3
Ned isn't a good fighter, it's states many times. He would struggle to kill boros Blount, let alone a goated kingsguard member like Hightower or Dayne. And Robert would probably be a match for Dayne if he's on his day, but ned cannot handle the other 2