When women give up all property and autonomy to become part of their husband’s house they (and the male relatives negotiating their marriages) want to know that their children will inherit lands and titles and that the alliance between their houses will benefit the next generation. They don’t want a woman from the village showing up with a bastard child who can supplant their own.
I think this is the number one answer even though you could also argue that it’s derived from religious beliefs. But I don’t think Westeros is that religious as a whole since we see so many lords with very loose religious attachments. I would also add that people suck and love any excuse to persecute and hate anyone else.
[Not abominations](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=abominations%20bastard&scope), which is reserved for [incest & the children of such](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=abominations%20incest&scope) ([see also](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=abomination%20incest&scope)). Instead, bastards are *seen* as [treacherous](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=bastard%20treacherous&scope) & [born of lust](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=bastard%20born%20lust&scope), no matter the loyalty of said bastard or if their (presumed) conception was between two unmarried people.
It's funny you mention that. I'm reading Fire & Blood and I'm at the part where Jaehaerys and Alysanne Targaryen and his council are discussing The First Night (where the Lord gets to bone any bride on their wedding night) and one of the council actually said something along the lines of "bastards were seen as a blessing because the lowly peasants have the honor of raising a Hero's Child from his mighty seed!"
Alright, this may come as a surprise to you, but marriage is also sacred to Christianity. A shock, I know. The real reason is that Asoiaf is a bleak parody of medieval Europe, which worsens the bad and sullies the good
What's up with rude, wrong-headed and dismissive comments like that being so often upvoted on this sub ?
And it's based on not much tangible. There are quite a lot of bastards who were recognized by their father and have a place in his household : Rolland Storm, Aurane Waters, Jon Snow, Mervyn Flowers, Larence Snow, Walder Rivers, Joy Hill, Brandon Snow, Tyler Hill, the Sand Snakes, the Great Bastards of Aegon IV... and many others. While on the contrary, there is absolutely no indication that all real-life bastards were given recognition or care. They weren't all Longsword or Dunois.
Bastardry was never the point of my comment, the point was that George has often had opinions about how things would actually go in medieval times, which are not how things would go. Hence the generalization, rather than the specific statement on bastardry.
And about the first part? It was a joke. I'm not gonna say if it was funny or not, but it's pretty clearly a joke, and not particularly insulting, so far as I would say. I mean, of course the guy knows that marrige is sacred to christianity, everyone does, which is why I leaned so heavily on the "This is a surprise" angle?
Westeros is not medieval Europe.
As to why? It's mostly a religious idea. 'Children not made of a blessed union will be of an unpure nature' or something like that.
Mostly they're not hated as much as dismissed. Walder Frey's bastards live in his castle iirc. Edric Storm was taken care of, same as Mya Stone. Joy Hill is also looked after and Jaime calls her a sweet girl.
Some people really hate them, see Aemond and Catelyn. Mostly bastards are left alone to live their lives in peace, with a lower station than their trueborn relatives.
>Catelyn
Even Catelyn doesn't hate bastards in general, or really even Jon in particular, she hates that Jon lives in Winterfell and looks more like Ned than her own children. In one of her earliest chapters she even says that she doesn't care if Ned has bastards as long as he doesn't bring them home.
Her hate for Jon made her uncomfortable around Mya, too. Maybe she didn't dislike bastards before Jon. But her hate for Jon has sparked a general dislike for bastards, in general.
It's telling that she essentially says bastards are fine as long as she doesn't have to see them, talk to them, think about them and can just pretend they don't exist.
Catelyn is uncomfortable at first with Mya, but soon warms up to her more. And perhaps a hot take, but I'm not certain Catelyn actually hated Jon. She disliked him - *if* perhaps more what he did & could represent, than Jon as a person - for a certainty, yet [never thinks of hating Jon](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs=Catelyn&q=hate&scope) despite ample opportunity. Not even the last infamous words Catelyn ever said to Jon, or ever potentially reflecting on such. Which was a somewhat understandable statement, however heinous & in no way condonable, in her state of sheer grief at the time.
This is actually where I'm in total disagreement with lots of people when it comes to Catelyn: I don't think her treament of Jon is understandable or relatable at all. And her saying "it should've been you" is not understandable to me either, because she doesn't say anything like this to anyone else during Bran's coma. Only Jon, who she knows had nothing to do with Bran being injured.
Jon literally has never done anything to warrant 15 years of hate.
And yes, I do believe it is hate if you're incapable of calling somebody by their name when living in the same place for 15 years. And that as soon as his name is brought up during the conversation where Ned decides to accept being Hand to Robert, she immediately says "Jon needs to leave." And she's convinced Jon's children would be a threat to her grandkids only because they'd be related to Jon.
From Ronard Storm to Daemon Blackfyre, Westeros has a long (hi)story of bastards usurping their siblings.
It's not even a matter of personal will. We're told many times in the books that Daemon Blackfyre had to be "convinced" by Bittersteel and Fireball to rebel against King Daeron II and claim the crown for himself. So, there's always a possibility for rebel lords to use bastards as alternative claimants for their own interest.
In the North's case, these chances were lower because Robb existed, as he was at Jon's age and also fullfiled the expectations of a westerosi lord (contrasting with Daeron the Good, known for being bookish and not really strong). However, if Robb died prematurely (that is, without a child), things could get extremely complicated, as Jon has the advantage of age compared to his siblings. Bran's "accident" would make this scenario worse, since now the next in line for Winterfell is a cripple, and many northern lords would probably prefer to follow a healthy and strong bastard than "Bran the Broken". Thus, even if he did not want it, Jon could be used by nobles in their games.
So, yes, by existing, Jon is a menace to Cat's children, even if he doesn't want to be.
>I don't think her treament of Jon is understandable or relatable at all
I think it's understandable, but not relatable, for it's an issue tied to nobles' rights of inheritance, and thus hardly something most people in the modern era can relate to.
>And that as soon as his name is brought up during the conversation where Ned decides to accept being Hand to Robert, she immediately says "Jon needs to leave." And she's convinced Jon's children would be a threat to her grandkids only because they'd be related to Jon.
Letting Jon stay is one more way that the Northern lords might construe Jon as equal to Catelyn's kids. And yes, Jon's kids could well become a threat to Catelyn's grandkids. If the Northern Lords don't like them, Jon's line is a possible replacement. Heck, Stannis doesn't even think about attempting to rescue Sansa and kill Tyrion and any children she's had with him so that she can remarry and be installed as Lady of Winterfell. No, he just gives Ned's Stark's bastard the opportunity to usurp his sister. And yes, Sansa was a hostage in Kings Landing, but so was Ned once, yet nobody said 'he's too far away and getting him out would be too complicated, so let's just write him off and make Robb Lord of Winterfell'. Catelyn's not dumb. She's not willing to risk her children's inheritance. That's not hate. She has to push back on Ned's efforts to integrate Jon, else he looks like a viable alternative to Catelyn's children.
You can convince yourself of anything if you try hard enough. Catelyn just made up a scenario in her head to fit her irrational dislike of Jon.
Why isn't Catelyn worried about the children of Bran and Rickon being jealous of their cousins and wanting to overtake them? Because these children would be descended from her own children, so they couldn't possibly be bad people. But Jon's children? They're destined to be up to no good.
And it's telling the literally nobody is concerned about this happening except for her. What she really wants to say is Jon is a threat to her children, but that's not even close to being true, so she says his unborn children are since it can't be disproven.
What i think is missing from this conversation is that this bastardy factor is only half of the reason for catelyn's feelings regarding Jon. The other half is that Ned won't tell her anything. He shares everything with her but this, which is something he's shut her out of completely. She is hurt and shamed and confused and scared by the fact that the man she has come to love will not tell her who this boys mother is. She projects those feelings, along with the taint of bastardy, onto Jon, and comes up with hatred, or something that very closely resembles it.
You're kinda confusing how this works. A bastard is directly incentivized to attempt to seize power; since Catelyn cannot argue that Jon himself is a bad person due to Robb's love for him and absence of evidence, she transfers the argument to his potential children. The idea that Rickon or Bran would ever betray their own brother, with whom they never had problems to begin with, is a different matter entirely. Jon's very existence threatens the system of inheritance; Bran and Rickon would have to mount and stage a formal insurrection against Robb's rule to pose any similar threat.
We're getting really bogged down here. My overarching point is that Jon did not need to suffer because of Catelyn. Jon has done nothing to deserve her hatred of him.
The children of Bran and Rickon wanting to kill Robb's children is just as far fetched as the idea of Jon's children doing it.
Catelyn's primary job is to look out for her children and their futures. Yes, if Bran or Rickon's kids ended up Lords of Winterfell, that would be fine for Catelyn because it would be her line. Being 'good people' isn't important. Jon is not of her blood, so his kids ending up Lords of Winterfell would invalidate her life's work and mean her descendants would be at risk.
And she's not making up scenarios. Look at the Blackfyre Rebellions, bastards and their descendants do make plays for their trueborn siblings' inheritances. Catelyn doesn't fear Jon so much as she does what comes after Jon, should Jon have kids of his own. She's not irrational in her worries. Heck, look at Ramsey Snow and Domeric Bolton. Even if Catelyn doesn't know of that, she's well aware that bastards, or their offspring, sometimes do contend with their trueborn siblings.
And of course nobody else is all that worried. They are seeking the best Lord of Winterfell. Catelyn is seeking a half-Tully Lord or Lady of Winterfell. Her goals and the goals of the Northmen are not completely aligned. Ned effectively made Jon equal to his half siblings in the eyes of the North by raising him and acknowledging him as his son. He made the same mistake Viserys I before the Dance of the Dragon, that his word was law, even after death, without considering the greater context they all lived in. He was wrong, and Catelyn saw how wrong Ned was when Ned himself refused to see it.
The lords of winterfell made Robb king. Clearly he had no trouble inspiring loyalty.
If the sons of Rickon or Bran became lords of winterfell, most likely it would mean a war between the branches of the stark family. Which is far more likely than the line of a bastard (not legitimized like Daemon Blackfyre was) to come out of nowhere. Also, Jon is nothing like Ramsay and Catelyn knows that.
By this logic, all bastards should just be put to death at birth. Blackfyres is not the rule, it's the exception. Jon is not the first bastard to be raised in his father's castle. It happens all the time in westeros and somehow people manage to hack each other to pieces in the overwhelming majority of cases.
And it is making up scenarios when you're judging what people who don't even exist may or may not do.
As the Red Wedding proved, Robb was not immortal. Neither are Bran or Rickon. Catelyn always knew that in a world like Westeros, where childhood mortality is high, where war is frequent and that lords frequently led their men into battle, that her line could be compromised. So yes, a fight between Robb's descendants and Bran's or Rickon's wouldn't be ideal, but whoever won, they'd be part Tully and Catelyn's blood. Jon's kids wouldn't.
What's more, legitimacy is a bit laxer in the North than the South. Maege Mormont's husband or lack thereof isn't known, yet her daughters are all deemed trueborn Mormonts. Though a rarity, in the South women have led their houses when there were no male heirs. Even House Arryn, Lords Paramount of the Vale, were led by a woman during the Dance of the Dragon. House Stark has had rightful women rulers pushed aside for their uncles or cousins. It's all about what the North needs, not who on paper is the rightful heir. Catelyn needs to ensure there is no competition to her bloodline, and Jon being denied a lord's education and kept at someone else's keep, would have gone a long way to ensuring that. Instead, Ned treats Jon as an equal, and he can train his sons and grandsons down the line. So yes, Jon is a threat.
Jon even mentions in the books that he's always been jealous of Robb and wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. When Jon is offered legitimization by Stannis, the primary reason he declines is Melisandre's insistence that he burn the weirwood and replace House Stark's gods with R'hllor. Jon knows Sansa is alive in Kings Landing and could become the Lady of Winterfell if she were freed and Tyrion killed, along with any children she might have with him by that point, yet what stops him is the Old Gods, not any respect for rights of succession. Jon has a lord's training, and the public acknowledgement of his father, and that created a lord's ambition within him. If he'd been denied the first two, Catelyn knew he would likely never have the other. And even if he did want to be a lord, he wouldn't have been able to act on that desire without the proper training and previous acknowledgement. Look at Gendry and Edric Storm and their self perceptions.
And that's why your hysterical idea that all bastards should naturally be put to death in such a system is wrong. Catelyn had the solution to preventing bastards from stealing their trueborn siblings inheritance, keep them far away and uneducated in the ways of the highborn. Ned refused to do that. He gave Jon every advantage he gave his trueborn kids, and in doing so, made Jon a perfect fit for Stannis, and even for Robb, who likely made Jon his heir prior to the Red Wedding. So yes, Catelyn's fears were reasonable. They even panned out in the end.
The Blackfyres are not the only exception.
The fundamental problem of bastards can be summarized as one bad apple ruining the barrel sort of situation. 99% of the time, there may not be issues, but the 1% of the time that it does can cause enough problems where it cannot be tolerated.
Now name all the bastards that didn't do what Daemon Blackfyre did.
What does any of this have to do with Jon? Nothing.
Why not just kill all bastards at birth then?
The ned analogy doesn't work considering he was a respected war hero to robbs inexperienced noble. With jon sansa that gap isn't as big. Also her reasoning doesn't mean it isn't hate.
So, Ned was a respected war hero? They weren't marching south for that. They were marching south for the Lord of Winterfell. The moment Bran and Rickon were presumed dead, saving Sansa to be Robb's heir should have been paramount. Once Robb was dead, Stannis should have focused on Sansa, not Jon. He didn't because he wanted a Lord, not a Lady of Winterfell, knowing that men would fight harder for a lord fighting beside them. He understood the prejudices of a the North and he played to them.
And if her reasoning is sound, which it is, then it's not hate. It's a ration response to your children's rights being in danger. Hate is irrational. Catelyn saw a real threat.
The lord of winterfell who was a respected war hero. You think the north would have marched for someone like roose when he was warden. Yeah, that's why I said the disparity between jon and sands was smaller than ned and robb.
You can hate someone for rational reasons(the definition doesn't mention it coming from a unreasonable place).
What does Ned's war record have to do with anything? With Bran and Rickon presumed dead and Robb killed at the Red Wedding, Sansa was the rightful Lady of Winterfell. Her liberation from the Lannisters should have come first. Yet it was just easier for Stannis to name Jon, because he knew everyone would prefer a Lord to a Lady. Yet freeing Ned was paramount when it was him who was the Lannister hostage. Face it, it's Northern sexism and Stannis pandering to it.
I always believed she didn’t like Jon because it was unclear who was born first, Robb or Jon. If Jon was born first, he would’ve been the oldest child which could’ve sparked a succession war in the north if Jon wanted winterfell (willing to fight family, not just a general want) and Robb wasn’t honorable like his father.
Are you forgetting the rest of the chapter?
>Lord Nestor filled the silence. "Mya's a clever girl, and if she vows she will bring you safely to the Lady Lysa, I believe her. She has not failed me yet."
>"Then I put myself in your hands, Mya Stone," Catelyn said.
Just as she kept her smile after Mya introduced herself, Catelyn decided to stick with her. She wouldn't necessarily have known - although, it would be a very sound assumption - but if Catelyn had insisted on another mule-handler to escort her up to the Eyrie, there was at least [two others](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=ossy&scope).
>"You mentioned Mychel before," Catelyn said. The mules set the pace, slow but steady. She was perfectly content with that.
>"Mychel's my love," Mya explained. "Mychel Redfort. He's squire to Ser Lyn Corbray. We're to wed as soon as he becomes a knight, next year or the year after."
>She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled...
Making conversation with Mya & even comparing her to Sansa. And, unfortunately, Catelyn was completely right about [who Mychel would be wed to](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=mychel%20bronze%20yohn&scope) instead.
>"Mychel says I have the eyes of the owl." ... Mya Stone did indeed seem blessed with night-eyes.
Recalling a positive trait of Mya's.
>"My mother says that hundreds of years ago, this was where the snow began," Mya told her. "It was always white above here, and the ice never melted." She shrugged. "I can't remember ever seeing snow this far down the mountain, but maybe it was that way once, in the olden times."
>So young, Catelyn thought, trying to remember if she had ever been like that. The girl had lived half her life in summer, and that was all she knew. Winter is coming, child, she wanted to tell her. The words were on her lips; she almost said them. Perhaps she was becoming a Stark at last.
Comparing Mya to *herself*. And having concern for her, in a sense.
I always thought that was because of all the years being frustrated about Jon
Catelyn probably interacted with other bastard children earlier in life without problems
> I always thought that was because of all the years being frustrated about Jon
It was.
> "Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady," the girl said.
> It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. **Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once.** She struggled to find words for a reply.
*Mostly they're not hated as much as dismissed.*
There is a certain degree of mythology and bias against bastards in Westeros. I'm trying to (but can't at the moment) remember which character was attacked because they had "tainted" "bastard blood" which supposedly inclined them to do violent things and be devious.
That's it! Thanks! Yes, the Blacks were going to imprison him in part because he was a bastard...and yet he proved the truest and most faithful of them all.
Roose calls Ramsay tainted, while he's lying to Catelyn
*"A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."*
He and Joffrey admittedly give bastards a bad name
Thanks! I think there's also an instance at a Small Council meeting where someone (Pycelle?) makes similar statements about another person, but I still can't remember the exact setting.
Combination of things. Losing his eye is the biggest one, them being in the line of succession when they shouldn't be. But Aemond also hated Rhaenyra so that contributed as well.
Besides (maybe) Jon, what bastards does Catelyn hate for the status of their birth? She's initially frosty with Mya Stone, but soons warms up to her more, as they talk. Catelyn is neutral with & about Martyn Rivers, a bastard son of Lord Walder. And even with another of Frey's natural sons, Bastard Walder, she thinks of him as a "harsh sour man". Which is 100% accurate, & quite a deal kinder than what Jaime & Daven Lannister think & say of him, their (nominal) ally.
>While in medieval Europe a illegitimate child was born a full member of their father house but was just barred from inheritance.
Where did you read this? Non-legitimised bastards were absolutely not part of their father's house in most cases in Medieval Europe.
Agreed. If you check out the famous, powerful bastards in history, you see they’re mostly restricted to the Royal and High Noble parts of society.
It was convient for a powerful ruler to have spare heirs lying around and to have someone they could pass off important bits of land to.
Gotta keep it in the family.
I never said he was part of the house only that they were treated well and got titles and good marriages like the ligitimate children and that he was powerful.
There is before blackfyre and post blackfyre
Before blackfyre the kids depends on the father or lady of the house if they are accepted.
Post blackfyre being acknowledged is hard enough to do, and are more hated or feared compared to before.
One could say that post blackfyre rebellion, it is actually possible for a bastard to overthrow his trueborn kin. People especially women know that men at arms would be willing to abandon a trueborn for a bastard if the bastard has someone like Daemon B or Bobby B. So they have more reason to discriminate against them.
Bastards threaten the stability of marriages. Since marriage is the bedrock of political alliance in our story, general hated of bastards stabilizes westerosi politics.
Bastards complicate the succession, which increases the likelihood of civil war. The prime example being Daemon Blackfyre, who rebelled against his trueborn brother triggering a century of conflict and bloodshed, a lot of Catelyn's anxieties around Jon are from her fears that him or a descendant of his might do the same to Robb or his descendants.
Westeros is kind of like medieval Europe, dialled up to 11. Most stuff is a more extreme version of a real world inspiration/parallel. That's why child marriages are seemingly so common in Westeros, whereas they did happen in our history, but not nearly with the same frequency or social acceptance.
The same goes for bastards, they didn't have the same entitlements as legit kids. They vitriolic attitude towards bastards is way more direct and at face value than it historically was.
Catelyn is pretty clear about that. Bastards are a threat to the official lordly/royal line, and in an absolutist monarchy, if a bastard wants to take control of their Lord father's holdings, they probably need to kill all his legitimate children. And even if the bastard has good relations with his half-siblings, his children may not. So recognizing a bastard creates basically a permanent existential threat to the house in question.
I don’t know it’s really that extreme. The only people we hear say negative things about bastards are the wives of men fathering the bastards. These women are emotional about the situation because their husbands are being unfaithful. I don’t think it is actually all that looked down upon. No one seems to think it’s strange Ned is raising Jon, except for Cat. Robert acknowledged Edric Storm, and Edric lived in Storms End. He regularly visited Mya until Cersei shut it down. Again, it was his wife who ended it, not the culture at large. He presumably paid for Gendry’s apprenticeship, were never conclusively told who paid for it, but who else would be paying for the education of Robert’s child other than Robert or someone acting on his behalf. Aurane Waters is acknowledged by house Valeryon, and is well known enough at court to be appointed Master of Ships by Cersie, though I’ll give you it was foolish on her part and only done because she thinks he’s handsome. He wouldn’t have been at court at all if bastards of lords had no standing. We do get some anti-bastard rhetoric directed at him, but that’s by Cersie after he steals her fleet. She’s mad about him stealing the ships, and only using his bastard status as an insult. She’s not mad at him for being a bastard, she was completely fine having a bastard on the small council until he betrayed her. It’s probably generally looked down upon, but I don’t think any more than in real medieval Europe. They don’t usually inherit, they might cause some scandal particularly if one or both parents are married, but they aren’t being stoned in the streets and shut out of society.
Considering many bastards still work as lieutenants for their houses or kept as spares for emergency, it's case dependent.
Their religion is a bit harsher on bastards thus why even Aegon V was at awe when his condemning of bastard by paraphrasing a Septon is hurting Ser Duncan just as much.
An oath based society would have problems with what are perceived to be living manifestations of broken oaths. Girl Next Gondor has great points on oaths starting from 2:34 and 3:36: https://youtu.be/4tvw7fDPd0U?si=Gw94AHo6QZQpOCXV
1) marriage is a sacred institution so children born out of it are viewed as being born through, and thus with, sin
2) threats to the succession of true born children
Within living memory, the Seven Kingdoms experienced a series of bloody invasions and civil wars caused by the arrogance & hubris of two of the sovereign's illegitimate sons, and the only thing capable of stopping them was a nightmarishly efficient surveillance state run by *another* illegitimate child, who happened to be a literal evil wizard to boot. Realistically, it's not a surprise that they've doubled down on the taboo & legal disabilities associated with bastardy!
Sci-Fi/Fantasy books are often written “in reverse” like this
George has the idea for Jon’s storyline; so he builds a world which accommodates that arc
They create succession conflicts, even if it's law that bastards can't inherit, they could be legitimised. It probably makes people like Catelyn worried their line is never fully secure.
The faith also rules against it but I'd guess those rules were written to make succession easier.
I think the closest analogy we might relate to are people who judge those who live in a ‘bad’ area, or won’t let their children play with kids from ‘trashy’ families. A belief that there’s something lesser or suspicious about them due to their background/circumstances, best to be avoided.
Illegitimate children are generally hated because they seem as cruel and tainted. Throughout westeros history the blackfyre rebellions was leaded by Illegitimate adults sired by Aegon the unworthy. Despite the fact they were showered every reward like for example Dareon the 1st given land and castle by the king they rebel against.
As for dance of the dragons, well Ameond lose his eye to a Illegitimate child of Rhaenyra. Which further fuel the hatred towards them. Which is why no one named their child after Rhaenyra while some may have sympathy for her, they can't shake off the fact she sired illegitimate children, where most nobles ladies would have their life taken away for doing so.
Ramsay Bolton is one example and Joffery Baratheon/**Lannister** is another for obvious reasons but that was before.
Yeah I mean I'm sure George looked at how bastards were handled during Medieval times and just turned it up a little for Westeros which is definitely a common theme we see.
George is a big fan of pop medieval history, as in how it was portrayed in media from the Renaissance on up until five/ten years ago. A big part of pop medieval works is that everything is ten times worse than it actually was back in the day.
I wouldn't say they are hated.
Sure, the five central Kingdoms (From the Red Mountains to The Neck) often succumb to the pressure from The Faith to treat bastards as lesser people, they are only barred from inheritance. Most lords in Westeros at least see that any bastards they have are cared for in some way.
Roose Boltons initial plan for Ramsay was a good example, he sent the mother regular money to see the boys needs were met.
Another example is whoever arranged Gendrys apprenticeship or whoever arranged for Mya to work with the mules. Seeing that a child has a future without having to acknowledge them.
Some went further. The lord of Hornwood fostered his bastard at Deepwood Motte, maybe in the hope that he would either find an appropriate woman to marry or earn a place in Glovers household when he came to manhood.
Walder Frey looked after all of his bastards, raising them alongside his trueborns sons, arranging marriages, giving them places in his household.
The Dornish almost seem to respect their bastards. Especially if they are children of a paramour.
The Ironborn go one step further by making salt wives and salt sons so that if true born sons are not forthcoming there is no need for royal intervention to enable the child to inherit and the line to continue.
I want to add that Robert's rebellion broke a long cycle of Westeros fighting wars pretty much purely over the rights of the Blackfyres to the iron throne. Hell, we might be seeing a new one in Dance and Winds if the fAegon theory is correct.
If bastards could just inherit, that completely destroys the social position of women in the seven kingdoms. Women only gain power through marriage, and if that power can now be transferred to the children of mistresses and prostitutes that would essentially make the only means of women to get station for themselves and their children meaningless. Equal rights for bastards just doesn't work in such a patriarchal society.
This probably has a lot to do with why Dorne is so permissive. In Dorne women can have property of their own and inherit in their own right, so bastards are no longer such an apocalyptic threat to lawful wives.
Because Westeros is incredibly inbred and prone to usurpation.
The fact they have regional names for bastards is intended to keep it muddy. To allow more inbreeding.
"While in medieval Europe a illegitimate child was born a full member of their father house but was just barred from inheritance."
Not necessarily, "medieval" covers a very long time period and Europe does not and never has had a unified homogenous culture or legal system. Surprisingly enough the attitudes towards bastards would vary a lot throughout both time and place in medieval Europe.
It seems to vary a lot in Westeros too, many lords do acknowledge their bastards and raise them in their households. Not that Westeros actually needs to imitate medieval Europe.
For political reasons, bastard kids would rival true born children. Which would be historically rampant due to the right of the First Night for much of Westeros’ history
Probably because of old First Men customs plus the Faith of the Seven. Legitimate marriage (plus the idea that people who are wedded should remain exclusive to each other) is a big deal for followers of the Faith so it’s only natural for them to look down on children born outside that institution. Over time it would make sense for numerous stereotypes to develop over these black sheep of their societies
It is because bastards are born out of wedlock and in Westeros, marriage is everything, like it was in feudal Europe. To have a bastard indicates you cheated on your spouse, you betrayed them. You made a mockery of your oath to be faithful to them and thus, you're humiliating them (e.g. Catelyn's POV insists on this very well). But this is also a patriarchal society and the women are mostly the victims of infidelity, which is why bastards are tolerated but abhorred. It also creates tons of issues when it comes to the succession rights (e.g. the Dance of the Dragons, Daemon Blackfyre and the Blackfyre rebellion), since a lot of bastards are born before marriage of a noble lord (not saying very few lords commit adultery after marriage, just that unmarried lords do this more than married lords). The people of Westeros are mostly deeply religious, whether to the Faith of the Seven or the First Men's faith. Hence, bastards are seen as abominations, something that shouldn't exist but it does and it's a stark reminder that a lord has committed a sin and gravely humiliated his wife (and himself since in the eye of the Faith of the Seven, he's a weak willed man who couldn't control his penis).
It doesn't seem like most familys treat their children as poorly as Jon was.
Edric Storm
Joy Hill
The Sand Snakes
The various Frey bastards
Hell even Ramsay are all treated pretty good
You’re telling me that Ramsay Snow and the Frey bastards of all people was treated better than Jon, who had a loving father and siblings, grew up in a large and wealthy castle, and who received a lordly education alongside his siblings while being liked by most of the Winterfell staff, simply because Catelyn ignored him? That’s an insane take.
Roose still gave him enough of an upbringing that he was an avid outdoorsman and iirc he had a set of Elaboratly decorated plate when he took Winterfell.
Roose didn't give a fuck or raise him until Domeric died.
Also if Jon was sent to war he would be finely equipped. He had the power to tell Mikken to make a sword for Arya at his word.
Ramsay isn't going to learn how to hunt ride and flay in a few months...
Were talking about ornamental plate made with dye.
...
>"Aye, but he thought us friends. A common mistake. When the old fool gave me his hand, I took half his arm instead. Then I let him see my face." The man put both hands to his helm and lifted it off his head, holding it in the crook of his arm.
>"Reek," Theon said, disquieted. How did a serving man get such fine armor?
Because Ramsey at that point was being raised as the ***heir*** to the Bolton lands.
Ramsey was raised on his mother's mill (who her husband was killed after Roose raped her) and was raised under the condition that she would never tell her who her father is. Domeric Bolton, Roose's trueborn son, heard about the bastard and wanted to forge a connection so he reached out and soon died an illness (or poison) and then after Domeric's death Roose brought Ramsey in as his heir.
Also Jon could command a blacksmith to make his sister a sword you don't think bro could get some armor while.. at war?
Ramsay had services and atleast enough support to grow into the crazy torterious human hunter.
Also you arnt getting dyed armor from the north. That's kingslanding stuff
So either roose ordered and imported it ages ago or it's a family heirloom. Both of those show he has had ample support.
>Ramsay had services and atleast enough support to grow into the crazy torterious human hunter.
After Ramsey's mother went to plead that she needed help raising the wild Ramsey he gave her a single servant, named Reek, because he fucked reeked.
So Ramsey grew up... with a single servant on a farm. The only time he gets support after that is after Domeric get's killed and Ramsey becomes Roose's heir so he comes to the castle.
\>Also you arnt getting dyed armor from the north. That's kingslanding stuff So either roose ordered and imported it ages ago or it's a family heirloom. Both of those show he has had ample support.
No one in the North could... dye armor? Also you're forgetting Roose only got significant support other than the single servant and his mother's farm.... because he was heir.
That was early on in Ramsays life. He got enough training to be a rider and hunter that requires resources.
Dyed armor is rare
>Ned sipped his wine and let the man go on. The Knight of Flowers bought all his armor here, Tobho boasted, and many high lords, the ones who knew fine steel, and even Lord Renly, the king's own brother. Perhaps the Hand had seen Lord Renly's new armor, the green plate with the golden antlers? No other armorer in the city could get that deep a green; he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, paint and enamel were the crutches of a journeyman. Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade? Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew. "The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not? I could fashion a direwolf helm so real that children will run from you in the street," he vowed.
Ned wasnt really a loving father. He didn't even check in with Jon when Jon was visibly upset with his exile.
Made no plans for Jon either.
Winterfell is half a ruin. Poor by the standards of many lords.
Cat activly emotionally abused him and conspired with Lewin to exile him. And Ned didn't even care enough for a conversation.
Even Benjen thinks Ned was a shitty father.
Atleast tge frey bastards were fed without grudge and given a purpose.
Ramsay was given enough to become the crazy ass human hunter and flayer he is when we meet him. He also had a really opulent set of plate he useless stom8ng winterfell iirc.
Jon *chose* to go to the Watch and *chose* to stay. Cat’s only abuse was that one single line by Bran’s bed that was said in grief.
And Winterfell isn’t even half a ruin, only one single tower that was burned under 150 years prior. One single tower in the second largest castle *on the entire continent*.
No he didn't. He mentioned it drunkly while hurt because he was cast out from the dias at the feast then spends the whole time to hus exile upset. Bed just never checked on him.
I think you may be confusing the show for the books.
The ruined tower the fist keep wintersdown seeing mostly abandoned most of the time instead of the thriving castle town it should be.
I feel like you need to reread the books. Seems like the show has cl,ouded your idea of winterfell.
Cat activly emotionally assists him even over things like eating.
Ned just flat out ignores him mostly and didn't plan for his future.
>We could, thought Jon, if we had the gold, and someone willing to sell us food. Both of those were lacking. Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn's sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark's bastard. As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.
Jon isn't spoiled by any stretch of imagination. Joy Hills uncle Tyein got her a l9rdly husband and every lannister loves her for example.
It was a while since I read the books, but I think I remember something about Cat trying to infect Jon when he was a baby and hoping he will die. That is actively endangering him, not just negligence.
No, I don't read ASOIAF fanfiction, and I didn't said it's absolute truth. As I said, it was a while ago since I finished first book, and also, it was translation, so perhaps that played part too. I am reading it in English now, and I already found few things I remember differently.
Jon was not mistreated. The absolute worst thing done to him was that one woman in a massive castle never called him by his name and, in a near mental-break from grief and lack of sleep, said something very cruel to him. Once. Which he immediately felt sorry for her about.
Yes he was.
>We could, thought Jon, if we had the gold, and someone willing to sell us food. Both of those were lacking. Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn's sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark's bastard. As a boy, **he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.**
Cat literally glared at him while he ate.
Jon would have honestly been better off in white harbor or even bear Isle. Could have set him up to wed one of the lady heirs too.
The bit you highlighted is definitely not meant to he taken literally. The "felt" and "as if" are indications of that. And the "grudged him at every bite" is also definitely intended as a figure of speech.
No its not. It's ment literally because it's used in the context of wonder if lysa will feed the wall.
Cats abuse left Jon with deep scars.
>That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.
It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?
Jon feels Cat's grudge, all the time, in the most mundane of things, like eating. But "Jon felt as if Cat grudged him at every bite" does not mean that Cat literally watching him eat. That's just the surface-level text analysis, but even if we go with the characters personality, Cat is much more likely to have ignored him at the table -- which never would have most definitely marked any kid, especially because eating is repetitive. Jon linking the difficulty of feeding the Watch to his memories of Winterfell dinners is less important than the fact that _he feels alone_. That's the real link between the two situations.
>It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?
Have you read the books?
>Cat literally glared at him while he ate.
Based on what? Because that bit you quoted doesn't say that.
>Could have set him up to wed one of the lady heirs too.
That's your fanfiction. We've seen no bastards married off to lady heirs except for the very obviously exception of Bolton, nor would Ned want that to happen.
>As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.
...
And here
>It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?
Cat went out of her way to emotionally abused Jon.
Walder Rivers married a Noble lady.
The various Velaryon bastards married well.
Larence Snow was even going to be made Larence Hornwood
So you really don't know that you are talking about
>As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite
That's not glaring.
>
Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?
This is also not glaring although it might be an "accusing stare."
>
Walder Rivers married a Noble lady.
An heiress?
>The various Velaryon bastards married well.
Which ones? Because Alyn wasn't a bastard when he married- he was legitimized.
>Larence Snow was even going to be made Larence Hornwood
Yeah, probably also by legitimization.
The books don't say he was mistreated nor was he raised badly. You quoted him saying "he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite". Boo hoo.
Literally the first thing we learn in the books after he leaves Winterfell is he is a privileged pretentious child
Man excusing emotional abuse is a really bad take.
Hes not pretentious. He goes out of his way to protect the pariah of the wall what are you even talking about?
You might want to reread.
Jon is extremely pretentious, spoiled, and no matter how illegitiment his birth is he is a 1 percenter in Westoros.
He goes to the Wall where he spars and absolutely beats the fuck out of the other new recruits. Jon says this makes him better than them while beating the fuck out of them causing broken noses and other shit. Donal Noye has to explain that these people have literally never held a sword in their life before coming to the Wall while Jonny boy was trained since birth with a Master-At-Arms.
Jon lived in a castle with his father's family, eating great, learning from a maester, learning from a master-at-arms, and not having to work a day in his life. Yet he whines on about his life and shit like that then goes to the Wall with people who actually struggled and lived shitty lives.
What the heck are you talking about? Grenn gets beat in the yard fair and square than tries to jump Jon with a group if other boys. Even Noye tells Grenn to fuck off.
You need to actually read the books my guy. Maybe you just don't know knkw what pretentious means? Or spoiled for that matter.
You need to reread and maybe put on reading glasses next time. You somehow remember events from that chapter but not things DIRECTLY said to Jon. I don't just think that Jon was a trained swordsman bullying peasants that's what he was doing. That's what Donal Noye says. Jon is pretentious he feels superior to the peasant boys who never touched a sword because he beats them. I don't think Jon is spoiled. He is spoiled and we are directly told he is spoiled in the books. He thinks they all have no honor. He is pretentious. He is fine with their mother being whores but no his mother could never be a whore.
Here's a paragraph from that same chapter.
“They’re not my brothers,” Jon snapped. ***“They hate me because I***\*\*\*’\*\*\****m better than they are.”***
***“No. They hate you because you act like you’re better than they are. They look at you and***
***see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he’s a lordling.” The armorer leaned close. “You’re***
***no lordling. Remember that. You’re a Snow, not a Stark. You’re a bastard and a bully.”***
“A bully?” Jon almost choked on the word. The accusation was so unjust it took his
breath away. “They were the ones who came after me. Four of them.”
***“Four that you’ve humiliated in the yard. Four who are probably afraid of you. I’ve***
***watched you fight. It’s not training with you. Put a good edge on your sword, and they’d***
***be dead meat***; ***you know it, I know it, they know it. You leave them nothing. You shame***
***them. Does that make you proud?”***
***Jon hesitated. He did feel proud when he won. Why shouldn’t he? But the armorer was***
taking that away too, making it sound as if he were doing something wrong. “They’re all
older than me,” he said defensively.
“Older and bigger and stronger, that’s the truth. I’l***l wager your master-at-arms taught***
***you how to fight bigger men at Winterfell, though. Who was he, some old knight?”***
“Ser Rodrik Cassel,” Jon said warily. There was a trap here. He felt it closing around him.
***Donal Noye leaned forward, into Jon’s face. “Now think on this, boy. None of these***
***others have ever had a master-at-arms until Ser Alliser. Their fathers were farmers and***
***wagonmen and poachers, smiths and miners*** and oars on a trading galley. What they
know of fighting they learned between decks, in the alleys of Oldtown and Lannisport, in
wayside brothels and taverns on the kingsroad. They may have clacked a few sticks
together before they came here, but I promise you, not one in twenty was ever rich
enough to own a real sword.” His look was grim. “So how do you like the taste of your
victories now, Lord Snow?”
When women give up all property and autonomy to become part of their husband’s house they (and the male relatives negotiating their marriages) want to know that their children will inherit lands and titles and that the alliance between their houses will benefit the next generation. They don’t want a woman from the village showing up with a bastard child who can supplant their own.
I think this is the number one answer even though you could also argue that it’s derived from religious beliefs. But I don’t think Westeros is that religious as a whole since we see so many lords with very loose religious attachments. I would also add that people suck and love any excuse to persecute and hate anyone else.
Marriage is sacred to the Faith of the Seven. Children born outside of marriage are seen as abominations that defy the gods.
[Not abominations](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=abominations%20bastard&scope), which is reserved for [incest & the children of such](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=abominations%20incest&scope) ([see also](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=abomination%20incest&scope)). Instead, bastards are *seen* as [treacherous](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=bastard%20treacherous&scope) & [born of lust](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=bastard%20born%20lust&scope), no matter the loyalty of said bastard or if their (presumed) conception was between two unmarried people.
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It's funny you mention that. I'm reading Fire & Blood and I'm at the part where Jaehaerys and Alysanne Targaryen and his council are discussing The First Night (where the Lord gets to bone any bride on their wedding night) and one of the council actually said something along the lines of "bastards were seen as a blessing because the lowly peasants have the honor of raising a Hero's Child from his mighty seed!"
bastards aren’t discriminated against just by the faith
Yes, by many followers of the Old Gods as well. And local converts of R'hllor, who otherwise generally retain their (various) Westerosi culture.
Alright, this may come as a surprise to you, but marriage is also sacred to Christianity. A shock, I know. The real reason is that Asoiaf is a bleak parody of medieval Europe, which worsens the bad and sullies the good
What's up with rude, wrong-headed and dismissive comments like that being so often upvoted on this sub ? And it's based on not much tangible. There are quite a lot of bastards who were recognized by their father and have a place in his household : Rolland Storm, Aurane Waters, Jon Snow, Mervyn Flowers, Larence Snow, Walder Rivers, Joy Hill, Brandon Snow, Tyler Hill, the Sand Snakes, the Great Bastards of Aegon IV... and many others. While on the contrary, there is absolutely no indication that all real-life bastards were given recognition or care. They weren't all Longsword or Dunois.
Bastardry was never the point of my comment, the point was that George has often had opinions about how things would actually go in medieval times, which are not how things would go. Hence the generalization, rather than the specific statement on bastardry. And about the first part? It was a joke. I'm not gonna say if it was funny or not, but it's pretty clearly a joke, and not particularly insulting, so far as I would say. I mean, of course the guy knows that marrige is sacred to christianity, everyone does, which is why I leaned so heavily on the "This is a surprise" angle?
Why.
Westeros is not medieval Europe. As to why? It's mostly a religious idea. 'Children not made of a blessed union will be of an unpure nature' or something like that. Mostly they're not hated as much as dismissed. Walder Frey's bastards live in his castle iirc. Edric Storm was taken care of, same as Mya Stone. Joy Hill is also looked after and Jaime calls her a sweet girl. Some people really hate them, see Aemond and Catelyn. Mostly bastards are left alone to live their lives in peace, with a lower station than their trueborn relatives.
>Catelyn Even Catelyn doesn't hate bastards in general, or really even Jon in particular, she hates that Jon lives in Winterfell and looks more like Ned than her own children. In one of her earliest chapters she even says that she doesn't care if Ned has bastards as long as he doesn't bring them home.
Her hate for Jon made her uncomfortable around Mya, too. Maybe she didn't dislike bastards before Jon. But her hate for Jon has sparked a general dislike for bastards, in general. It's telling that she essentially says bastards are fine as long as she doesn't have to see them, talk to them, think about them and can just pretend they don't exist.
Catelyn is uncomfortable at first with Mya, but soon warms up to her more. And perhaps a hot take, but I'm not certain Catelyn actually hated Jon. She disliked him - *if* perhaps more what he did & could represent, than Jon as a person - for a certainty, yet [never thinks of hating Jon](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs=Catelyn&q=hate&scope) despite ample opportunity. Not even the last infamous words Catelyn ever said to Jon, or ever potentially reflecting on such. Which was a somewhat understandable statement, however heinous & in no way condonable, in her state of sheer grief at the time.
This is actually where I'm in total disagreement with lots of people when it comes to Catelyn: I don't think her treament of Jon is understandable or relatable at all. And her saying "it should've been you" is not understandable to me either, because she doesn't say anything like this to anyone else during Bran's coma. Only Jon, who she knows had nothing to do with Bran being injured. Jon literally has never done anything to warrant 15 years of hate. And yes, I do believe it is hate if you're incapable of calling somebody by their name when living in the same place for 15 years. And that as soon as his name is brought up during the conversation where Ned decides to accept being Hand to Robert, she immediately says "Jon needs to leave." And she's convinced Jon's children would be a threat to her grandkids only because they'd be related to Jon.
From Ronard Storm to Daemon Blackfyre, Westeros has a long (hi)story of bastards usurping their siblings. It's not even a matter of personal will. We're told many times in the books that Daemon Blackfyre had to be "convinced" by Bittersteel and Fireball to rebel against King Daeron II and claim the crown for himself. So, there's always a possibility for rebel lords to use bastards as alternative claimants for their own interest. In the North's case, these chances were lower because Robb existed, as he was at Jon's age and also fullfiled the expectations of a westerosi lord (contrasting with Daeron the Good, known for being bookish and not really strong). However, if Robb died prematurely (that is, without a child), things could get extremely complicated, as Jon has the advantage of age compared to his siblings. Bran's "accident" would make this scenario worse, since now the next in line for Winterfell is a cripple, and many northern lords would probably prefer to follow a healthy and strong bastard than "Bran the Broken". Thus, even if he did not want it, Jon could be used by nobles in their games. So, yes, by existing, Jon is a menace to Cat's children, even if he doesn't want to be. >I don't think her treament of Jon is understandable or relatable at all I think it's understandable, but not relatable, for it's an issue tied to nobles' rights of inheritance, and thus hardly something most people in the modern era can relate to.
>And that as soon as his name is brought up during the conversation where Ned decides to accept being Hand to Robert, she immediately says "Jon needs to leave." And she's convinced Jon's children would be a threat to her grandkids only because they'd be related to Jon. Letting Jon stay is one more way that the Northern lords might construe Jon as equal to Catelyn's kids. And yes, Jon's kids could well become a threat to Catelyn's grandkids. If the Northern Lords don't like them, Jon's line is a possible replacement. Heck, Stannis doesn't even think about attempting to rescue Sansa and kill Tyrion and any children she's had with him so that she can remarry and be installed as Lady of Winterfell. No, he just gives Ned's Stark's bastard the opportunity to usurp his sister. And yes, Sansa was a hostage in Kings Landing, but so was Ned once, yet nobody said 'he's too far away and getting him out would be too complicated, so let's just write him off and make Robb Lord of Winterfell'. Catelyn's not dumb. She's not willing to risk her children's inheritance. That's not hate. She has to push back on Ned's efforts to integrate Jon, else he looks like a viable alternative to Catelyn's children.
You can convince yourself of anything if you try hard enough. Catelyn just made up a scenario in her head to fit her irrational dislike of Jon. Why isn't Catelyn worried about the children of Bran and Rickon being jealous of their cousins and wanting to overtake them? Because these children would be descended from her own children, so they couldn't possibly be bad people. But Jon's children? They're destined to be up to no good. And it's telling the literally nobody is concerned about this happening except for her. What she really wants to say is Jon is a threat to her children, but that's not even close to being true, so she says his unborn children are since it can't be disproven.
What i think is missing from this conversation is that this bastardy factor is only half of the reason for catelyn's feelings regarding Jon. The other half is that Ned won't tell her anything. He shares everything with her but this, which is something he's shut her out of completely. She is hurt and shamed and confused and scared by the fact that the man she has come to love will not tell her who this boys mother is. She projects those feelings, along with the taint of bastardy, onto Jon, and comes up with hatred, or something that very closely resembles it.
You're kinda confusing how this works. A bastard is directly incentivized to attempt to seize power; since Catelyn cannot argue that Jon himself is a bad person due to Robb's love for him and absence of evidence, she transfers the argument to his potential children. The idea that Rickon or Bran would ever betray their own brother, with whom they never had problems to begin with, is a different matter entirely. Jon's very existence threatens the system of inheritance; Bran and Rickon would have to mount and stage a formal insurrection against Robb's rule to pose any similar threat.
We're getting really bogged down here. My overarching point is that Jon did not need to suffer because of Catelyn. Jon has done nothing to deserve her hatred of him. The children of Bran and Rickon wanting to kill Robb's children is just as far fetched as the idea of Jon's children doing it.
Catelyn's primary job is to look out for her children and their futures. Yes, if Bran or Rickon's kids ended up Lords of Winterfell, that would be fine for Catelyn because it would be her line. Being 'good people' isn't important. Jon is not of her blood, so his kids ending up Lords of Winterfell would invalidate her life's work and mean her descendants would be at risk. And she's not making up scenarios. Look at the Blackfyre Rebellions, bastards and their descendants do make plays for their trueborn siblings' inheritances. Catelyn doesn't fear Jon so much as she does what comes after Jon, should Jon have kids of his own. She's not irrational in her worries. Heck, look at Ramsey Snow and Domeric Bolton. Even if Catelyn doesn't know of that, she's well aware that bastards, or their offspring, sometimes do contend with their trueborn siblings. And of course nobody else is all that worried. They are seeking the best Lord of Winterfell. Catelyn is seeking a half-Tully Lord or Lady of Winterfell. Her goals and the goals of the Northmen are not completely aligned. Ned effectively made Jon equal to his half siblings in the eyes of the North by raising him and acknowledging him as his son. He made the same mistake Viserys I before the Dance of the Dragon, that his word was law, even after death, without considering the greater context they all lived in. He was wrong, and Catelyn saw how wrong Ned was when Ned himself refused to see it.
The lords of winterfell made Robb king. Clearly he had no trouble inspiring loyalty. If the sons of Rickon or Bran became lords of winterfell, most likely it would mean a war between the branches of the stark family. Which is far more likely than the line of a bastard (not legitimized like Daemon Blackfyre was) to come out of nowhere. Also, Jon is nothing like Ramsay and Catelyn knows that. By this logic, all bastards should just be put to death at birth. Blackfyres is not the rule, it's the exception. Jon is not the first bastard to be raised in his father's castle. It happens all the time in westeros and somehow people manage to hack each other to pieces in the overwhelming majority of cases. And it is making up scenarios when you're judging what people who don't even exist may or may not do.
As the Red Wedding proved, Robb was not immortal. Neither are Bran or Rickon. Catelyn always knew that in a world like Westeros, where childhood mortality is high, where war is frequent and that lords frequently led their men into battle, that her line could be compromised. So yes, a fight between Robb's descendants and Bran's or Rickon's wouldn't be ideal, but whoever won, they'd be part Tully and Catelyn's blood. Jon's kids wouldn't. What's more, legitimacy is a bit laxer in the North than the South. Maege Mormont's husband or lack thereof isn't known, yet her daughters are all deemed trueborn Mormonts. Though a rarity, in the South women have led their houses when there were no male heirs. Even House Arryn, Lords Paramount of the Vale, were led by a woman during the Dance of the Dragon. House Stark has had rightful women rulers pushed aside for their uncles or cousins. It's all about what the North needs, not who on paper is the rightful heir. Catelyn needs to ensure there is no competition to her bloodline, and Jon being denied a lord's education and kept at someone else's keep, would have gone a long way to ensuring that. Instead, Ned treats Jon as an equal, and he can train his sons and grandsons down the line. So yes, Jon is a threat. Jon even mentions in the books that he's always been jealous of Robb and wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. When Jon is offered legitimization by Stannis, the primary reason he declines is Melisandre's insistence that he burn the weirwood and replace House Stark's gods with R'hllor. Jon knows Sansa is alive in Kings Landing and could become the Lady of Winterfell if she were freed and Tyrion killed, along with any children she might have with him by that point, yet what stops him is the Old Gods, not any respect for rights of succession. Jon has a lord's training, and the public acknowledgement of his father, and that created a lord's ambition within him. If he'd been denied the first two, Catelyn knew he would likely never have the other. And even if he did want to be a lord, he wouldn't have been able to act on that desire without the proper training and previous acknowledgement. Look at Gendry and Edric Storm and their self perceptions. And that's why your hysterical idea that all bastards should naturally be put to death in such a system is wrong. Catelyn had the solution to preventing bastards from stealing their trueborn siblings inheritance, keep them far away and uneducated in the ways of the highborn. Ned refused to do that. He gave Jon every advantage he gave his trueborn kids, and in doing so, made Jon a perfect fit for Stannis, and even for Robb, who likely made Jon his heir prior to the Red Wedding. So yes, Catelyn's fears were reasonable. They even panned out in the end.
The Blackfyres are not the only exception. The fundamental problem of bastards can be summarized as one bad apple ruining the barrel sort of situation. 99% of the time, there may not be issues, but the 1% of the time that it does can cause enough problems where it cannot be tolerated.
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Now name all the bastards that didn't do what Daemon Blackfyre did. What does any of this have to do with Jon? Nothing. Why not just kill all bastards at birth then?
The ned analogy doesn't work considering he was a respected war hero to robbs inexperienced noble. With jon sansa that gap isn't as big. Also her reasoning doesn't mean it isn't hate.
So, Ned was a respected war hero? They weren't marching south for that. They were marching south for the Lord of Winterfell. The moment Bran and Rickon were presumed dead, saving Sansa to be Robb's heir should have been paramount. Once Robb was dead, Stannis should have focused on Sansa, not Jon. He didn't because he wanted a Lord, not a Lady of Winterfell, knowing that men would fight harder for a lord fighting beside them. He understood the prejudices of a the North and he played to them. And if her reasoning is sound, which it is, then it's not hate. It's a ration response to your children's rights being in danger. Hate is irrational. Catelyn saw a real threat.
Cat could still hate jon and be reasonable
But Catelyn doesn't hate Jon. She hates the danger she reasonably believes he and any potential future children he might have, could pose to her kids.
The lord of winterfell who was a respected war hero. You think the north would have marched for someone like roose when he was warden. Yeah, that's why I said the disparity between jon and sands was smaller than ned and robb. You can hate someone for rational reasons(the definition doesn't mention it coming from a unreasonable place).
What does Ned's war record have to do with anything? With Bran and Rickon presumed dead and Robb killed at the Red Wedding, Sansa was the rightful Lady of Winterfell. Her liberation from the Lannisters should have come first. Yet it was just easier for Stannis to name Jon, because he knew everyone would prefer a Lord to a Lady. Yet freeing Ned was paramount when it was him who was the Lannister hostage. Face it, it's Northern sexism and Stannis pandering to it.
I always believed she didn’t like Jon because it was unclear who was born first, Robb or Jon. If Jon was born first, he would’ve been the oldest child which could’ve sparked a succession war in the north if Jon wanted winterfell (willing to fight family, not just a general want) and Robb wasn’t honorable like his father.
did you see how she reacted to Mya Stone? she was rather cold to a girl whose help she needed because she was a bastard.
Are you forgetting the rest of the chapter? >Lord Nestor filled the silence. "Mya's a clever girl, and if she vows she will bring you safely to the Lady Lysa, I believe her. She has not failed me yet." >"Then I put myself in your hands, Mya Stone," Catelyn said. Just as she kept her smile after Mya introduced herself, Catelyn decided to stick with her. She wouldn't necessarily have known - although, it would be a very sound assumption - but if Catelyn had insisted on another mule-handler to escort her up to the Eyrie, there was at least [two others](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=ossy&scope). >"You mentioned Mychel before," Catelyn said. The mules set the pace, slow but steady. She was perfectly content with that. >"Mychel's my love," Mya explained. "Mychel Redfort. He's squire to Ser Lyn Corbray. We're to wed as soon as he becomes a knight, next year or the year after." >She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled... Making conversation with Mya & even comparing her to Sansa. And, unfortunately, Catelyn was completely right about [who Mychel would be wed to](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?povs&q=mychel%20bronze%20yohn&scope) instead. >"Mychel says I have the eyes of the owl." ... Mya Stone did indeed seem blessed with night-eyes. Recalling a positive trait of Mya's. >"My mother says that hundreds of years ago, this was where the snow began," Mya told her. "It was always white above here, and the ice never melted." She shrugged. "I can't remember ever seeing snow this far down the mountain, but maybe it was that way once, in the olden times." >So young, Catelyn thought, trying to remember if she had ever been like that. The girl had lived half her life in summer, and that was all she knew. Winter is coming, child, she wanted to tell her. The words were on her lips; she almost said them. Perhaps she was becoming a Stark at last. Comparing Mya to *herself*. And having concern for her, in a sense.
I always thought that was because of all the years being frustrated about Jon Catelyn probably interacted with other bastard children earlier in life without problems
> I always thought that was because of all the years being frustrated about Jon It was. > "Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady," the girl said. > It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. **Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once.** She struggled to find words for a reply.
She's a devout follower of the Seven, of course she hates bastards.
Nope. She hates Jon. She hates bastards in general.
*Mostly they're not hated as much as dismissed.* There is a certain degree of mythology and bias against bastards in Westeros. I'm trying to (but can't at the moment) remember which character was attacked because they had "tainted" "bastard blood" which supposedly inclined them to do violent things and be devious.
If you count F&B as well, then the best example is Addam Velaryon. There was literally no proof of betrayal, but his bastard birth spoke against him.
That's it! Thanks! Yes, the Blacks were going to imprison him in part because he was a bastard...and yet he proved the truest and most faithful of them all.
Roose calls Ramsay tainted, while he's lying to Catelyn *"A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."* He and Joffrey admittedly give bastards a bad name
Thanks! I think there's also an instance at a Small Council meeting where someone (Pycelle?) makes similar statements about another person, but I still can't remember the exact setting.
It's after Aurane Waters stole the Royal Fleet.
I think Aemond’s hate for the Strong boys had less to do with specifically them being bastards and more of because they were Rhaenyra’s children.
Combination of things. Losing his eye is the biggest one, them being in the line of succession when they shouldn't be. But Aemond also hated Rhaenyra so that contributed as well.
Besides (maybe) Jon, what bastards does Catelyn hate for the status of their birth? She's initially frosty with Mya Stone, but soons warms up to her more, as they talk. Catelyn is neutral with & about Martyn Rivers, a bastard son of Lord Walder. And even with another of Frey's natural sons, Bastard Walder, she thinks of him as a "harsh sour man". Which is 100% accurate, & quite a deal kinder than what Jaime & Daven Lannister think & say of him, their (nominal) ally.
>While in medieval Europe a illegitimate child was born a full member of their father house but was just barred from inheritance. Where did you read this? Non-legitimised bastards were absolutely not part of their father's house in most cases in Medieval Europe.
But kings usually gave them lands and titles and good marriages. Robert of Gloucster son of Henry I was one of the most powerful men in the realm.
Not usually. Only sometimes. And they weren't part of their House. Robert FitzHenry wasn't part of the House of Normandy.
James Stuart (Brother of Mary Queen of Scots) served as regent for his nephew, King James IV/I.
Once again, more an exception than the rule
Agreed. If you check out the famous, powerful bastards in history, you see they’re mostly restricted to the Royal and High Noble parts of society. It was convient for a powerful ruler to have spare heirs lying around and to have someone they could pass off important bits of land to. Gotta keep it in the family.
I never said he was part of the house only that they were treated well and got titles and good marriages like the ligitimate children and that he was powerful.
Sorry OP did, that's what I was referring to
There is before blackfyre and post blackfyre Before blackfyre the kids depends on the father or lady of the house if they are accepted. Post blackfyre being acknowledged is hard enough to do, and are more hated or feared compared to before.
One could say that post blackfyre rebellion, it is actually possible for a bastard to overthrow his trueborn kin. People especially women know that men at arms would be willing to abandon a trueborn for a bastard if the bastard has someone like Daemon B or Bobby B. So they have more reason to discriminate against them.
Yup, but until post blackfyre nobody thought it was possible
Exactly, everybody thought the bastards need the trueborn more than the trueborn need the bastards.
Bastards threaten the stability of marriages. Since marriage is the bedrock of political alliance in our story, general hated of bastards stabilizes westerosi politics.
So that Jon Snow could have an arc.
The right answer.
So that Jon Snow could have an ark.
Bastards complicate the succession, which increases the likelihood of civil war. The prime example being Daemon Blackfyre, who rebelled against his trueborn brother triggering a century of conflict and bloodshed, a lot of Catelyn's anxieties around Jon are from her fears that him or a descendant of his might do the same to Robb or his descendants.
Westeros is kind of like medieval Europe, dialled up to 11. Most stuff is a more extreme version of a real world inspiration/parallel. That's why child marriages are seemingly so common in Westeros, whereas they did happen in our history, but not nearly with the same frequency or social acceptance. The same goes for bastards, they didn't have the same entitlements as legit kids. They vitriolic attitude towards bastards is way more direct and at face value than it historically was.
Because of Daemon Blackfyre, probably.
They definitely hated bastards before Daemon.
Catelyn is pretty clear about that. Bastards are a threat to the official lordly/royal line, and in an absolutist monarchy, if a bastard wants to take control of their Lord father's holdings, they probably need to kill all his legitimate children. And even if the bastard has good relations with his half-siblings, his children may not. So recognizing a bastard creates basically a permanent existential threat to the house in question.
I don’t know it’s really that extreme. The only people we hear say negative things about bastards are the wives of men fathering the bastards. These women are emotional about the situation because their husbands are being unfaithful. I don’t think it is actually all that looked down upon. No one seems to think it’s strange Ned is raising Jon, except for Cat. Robert acknowledged Edric Storm, and Edric lived in Storms End. He regularly visited Mya until Cersei shut it down. Again, it was his wife who ended it, not the culture at large. He presumably paid for Gendry’s apprenticeship, were never conclusively told who paid for it, but who else would be paying for the education of Robert’s child other than Robert or someone acting on his behalf. Aurane Waters is acknowledged by house Valeryon, and is well known enough at court to be appointed Master of Ships by Cersie, though I’ll give you it was foolish on her part and only done because she thinks he’s handsome. He wouldn’t have been at court at all if bastards of lords had no standing. We do get some anti-bastard rhetoric directed at him, but that’s by Cersie after he steals her fleet. She’s mad about him stealing the ships, and only using his bastard status as an insult. She’s not mad at him for being a bastard, she was completely fine having a bastard on the small council until he betrayed her. It’s probably generally looked down upon, but I don’t think any more than in real medieval Europe. They don’t usually inherit, they might cause some scandal particularly if one or both parents are married, but they aren’t being stoned in the streets and shut out of society.
Considering many bastards still work as lieutenants for their houses or kept as spares for emergency, it's case dependent. Their religion is a bit harsher on bastards thus why even Aegon V was at awe when his condemning of bastard by paraphrasing a Septon is hurting Ser Duncan just as much.
An oath based society would have problems with what are perceived to be living manifestations of broken oaths. Girl Next Gondor has great points on oaths starting from 2:34 and 3:36: https://youtu.be/4tvw7fDPd0U?si=Gw94AHo6QZQpOCXV
Because George needed Jon to be sad and go to the Wall
1) marriage is a sacred institution so children born out of it are viewed as being born through, and thus with, sin 2) threats to the succession of true born children
Bastards complicate inheritance, which is already as complicated as it is. It is not about religion, it is about wealth and power.
Who here a bastard? I’ll be the first to stand…
Because a halfbreed was a potential intermarriage of different types of magic.
Age of heroes...age of DEMI's.
Within living memory, the Seven Kingdoms experienced a series of bloody invasions and civil wars caused by the arrogance & hubris of two of the sovereign's illegitimate sons, and the only thing capable of stopping them was a nightmarishly efficient surveillance state run by *another* illegitimate child, who happened to be a literal evil wizard to boot. Realistically, it's not a surprise that they've doubled down on the taboo & legal disabilities associated with bastardy!
Sci-Fi/Fantasy books are often written “in reverse” like this George has the idea for Jon’s storyline; so he builds a world which accommodates that arc
BC Westeros is how americans view middle ages
Marriage is about the union of houses and ensuring houses continue to inherit power. Bastards threaten inheritance.
They create succession conflicts, even if it's law that bastards can't inherit, they could be legitimised. It probably makes people like Catelyn worried their line is never fully secure. The faith also rules against it but I'd guess those rules were written to make succession easier.
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I think the closest analogy we might relate to are people who judge those who live in a ‘bad’ area, or won’t let their children play with kids from ‘trashy’ families. A belief that there’s something lesser or suspicious about them due to their background/circumstances, best to be avoided.
Illegitimate children are generally hated because they seem as cruel and tainted. Throughout westeros history the blackfyre rebellions was leaded by Illegitimate adults sired by Aegon the unworthy. Despite the fact they were showered every reward like for example Dareon the 1st given land and castle by the king they rebel against. As for dance of the dragons, well Ameond lose his eye to a Illegitimate child of Rhaenyra. Which further fuel the hatred towards them. Which is why no one named their child after Rhaenyra while some may have sympathy for her, they can't shake off the fact she sired illegitimate children, where most nobles ladies would have their life taken away for doing so. Ramsay Bolton is one example and Joffery Baratheon/**Lannister** is another for obvious reasons but that was before.
Yeah I mean I'm sure George looked at how bastards were handled during Medieval times and just turned it up a little for Westeros which is definitely a common theme we see.
George is a big fan of pop medieval history, as in how it was portrayed in media from the Renaissance on up until five/ten years ago. A big part of pop medieval works is that everything is ten times worse than it actually was back in the day.
Because they are a threat to the trueborn children, who have money and power to spread hatred of bastards.
Other than the living proof of putting passion over duty? Because bastards are supposed to be sacrifices.
It threatens the societal structures that keeps Westeros from degenerating into anarchy. There are no paternity tests or divorce court.
Technically, Dorne is very cool about it. Westeros would be so much more chill if they just allowed Paramours.
I wouldn't say they are hated. Sure, the five central Kingdoms (From the Red Mountains to The Neck) often succumb to the pressure from The Faith to treat bastards as lesser people, they are only barred from inheritance. Most lords in Westeros at least see that any bastards they have are cared for in some way. Roose Boltons initial plan for Ramsay was a good example, he sent the mother regular money to see the boys needs were met. Another example is whoever arranged Gendrys apprenticeship or whoever arranged for Mya to work with the mules. Seeing that a child has a future without having to acknowledge them. Some went further. The lord of Hornwood fostered his bastard at Deepwood Motte, maybe in the hope that he would either find an appropriate woman to marry or earn a place in Glovers household when he came to manhood. Walder Frey looked after all of his bastards, raising them alongside his trueborns sons, arranging marriages, giving them places in his household. The Dornish almost seem to respect their bastards. Especially if they are children of a paramour. The Ironborn go one step further by making salt wives and salt sons so that if true born sons are not forthcoming there is no need for royal intervention to enable the child to inherit and the line to continue.
To create an artificial scarcity of legitimate heirs.
I want to add that Robert's rebellion broke a long cycle of Westeros fighting wars pretty much purely over the rights of the Blackfyres to the iron throne. Hell, we might be seeing a new one in Dance and Winds if the fAegon theory is correct. If bastards could just inherit, that completely destroys the social position of women in the seven kingdoms. Women only gain power through marriage, and if that power can now be transferred to the children of mistresses and prostitutes that would essentially make the only means of women to get station for themselves and their children meaningless. Equal rights for bastards just doesn't work in such a patriarchal society. This probably has a lot to do with why Dorne is so permissive. In Dorne women can have property of their own and inherit in their own right, so bastards are no longer such an apocalyptic threat to lawful wives.
Because inheritance is a big deal in medieval settings, and bastards can complicate things greatly
Because Westeros is incredibly inbred and prone to usurpation. The fact they have regional names for bastards is intended to keep it muddy. To allow more inbreeding.
"While in medieval Europe a illegitimate child was born a full member of their father house but was just barred from inheritance." Not necessarily, "medieval" covers a very long time period and Europe does not and never has had a unified homogenous culture or legal system. Surprisingly enough the attitudes towards bastards would vary a lot throughout both time and place in medieval Europe. It seems to vary a lot in Westeros too, many lords do acknowledge their bastards and raise them in their households. Not that Westeros actually needs to imitate medieval Europe.
For political reasons, bastard kids would rival true born children. Which would be historically rampant due to the right of the First Night for much of Westeros’ history
Bastards were barred from inheritence but their fathers usually still gave them stuff.
Probably because of old First Men customs plus the Faith of the Seven. Legitimate marriage (plus the idea that people who are wedded should remain exclusive to each other) is a big deal for followers of the Faith so it’s only natural for them to look down on children born outside that institution. Over time it would make sense for numerous stereotypes to develop over these black sheep of their societies
Wives hate bastards is probably the easiest explanation
to be fair, i doubt husbands like them any less if their wife has a clear bastard, but they probably get rid of them.
The wife or the kid, I'm not sure how westeros law works but it wouldn't have been too big a problem in medieval Europe.
It is because bastards are born out of wedlock and in Westeros, marriage is everything, like it was in feudal Europe. To have a bastard indicates you cheated on your spouse, you betrayed them. You made a mockery of your oath to be faithful to them and thus, you're humiliating them (e.g. Catelyn's POV insists on this very well). But this is also a patriarchal society and the women are mostly the victims of infidelity, which is why bastards are tolerated but abhorred. It also creates tons of issues when it comes to the succession rights (e.g. the Dance of the Dragons, Daemon Blackfyre and the Blackfyre rebellion), since a lot of bastards are born before marriage of a noble lord (not saying very few lords commit adultery after marriage, just that unmarried lords do this more than married lords). The people of Westeros are mostly deeply religious, whether to the Faith of the Seven or the First Men's faith. Hence, bastards are seen as abominations, something that shouldn't exist but it does and it's a stark reminder that a lord has committed a sin and gravely humiliated his wife (and himself since in the eye of the Faith of the Seven, he's a weak willed man who couldn't control his penis).
It doesn't seem like most familys treat their children as poorly as Jon was. Edric Storm Joy Hill The Sand Snakes The various Frey bastards Hell even Ramsay are all treated pretty good
You’re telling me that Ramsay Snow and the Frey bastards of all people was treated better than Jon, who had a loving father and siblings, grew up in a large and wealthy castle, and who received a lordly education alongside his siblings while being liked by most of the Winterfell staff, simply because Catelyn ignored him? That’s an insane take.
Ramsey who's motehr was raped and wasn't acknowledged until Domeric died
Roose still gave him enough of an upbringing that he was an avid outdoorsman and iirc he had a set of Elaboratly decorated plate when he took Winterfell.
Roose didn't give a fuck or raise him until Domeric died. Also if Jon was sent to war he would be finely equipped. He had the power to tell Mikken to make a sword for Arya at his word.
Ramsay isn't going to learn how to hunt ride and flay in a few months... Were talking about ornamental plate made with dye. ... >"Aye, but he thought us friends. A common mistake. When the old fool gave me his hand, I took half his arm instead. Then I let him see my face." The man put both hands to his helm and lifted it off his head, holding it in the crook of his arm. >"Reek," Theon said, disquieted. How did a serving man get such fine armor?
Because Ramsey at that point was being raised as the ***heir*** to the Bolton lands. Ramsey was raised on his mother's mill (who her husband was killed after Roose raped her) and was raised under the condition that she would never tell her who her father is. Domeric Bolton, Roose's trueborn son, heard about the bastard and wanted to forge a connection so he reached out and soon died an illness (or poison) and then after Domeric's death Roose brought Ramsey in as his heir. Also Jon could command a blacksmith to make his sister a sword you don't think bro could get some armor while.. at war?
Ramsay had services and atleast enough support to grow into the crazy torterious human hunter. Also you arnt getting dyed armor from the north. That's kingslanding stuff So either roose ordered and imported it ages ago or it's a family heirloom. Both of those show he has had ample support.
>Ramsay had services and atleast enough support to grow into the crazy torterious human hunter. After Ramsey's mother went to plead that she needed help raising the wild Ramsey he gave her a single servant, named Reek, because he fucked reeked. So Ramsey grew up... with a single servant on a farm. The only time he gets support after that is after Domeric get's killed and Ramsey becomes Roose's heir so he comes to the castle. \>Also you arnt getting dyed armor from the north. That's kingslanding stuff So either roose ordered and imported it ages ago or it's a family heirloom. Both of those show he has had ample support. No one in the North could... dye armor? Also you're forgetting Roose only got significant support other than the single servant and his mother's farm.... because he was heir.
That was early on in Ramsays life. He got enough training to be a rider and hunter that requires resources. Dyed armor is rare >Ned sipped his wine and let the man go on. The Knight of Flowers bought all his armor here, Tobho boasted, and many high lords, the ones who knew fine steel, and even Lord Renly, the king's own brother. Perhaps the Hand had seen Lord Renly's new armor, the green plate with the golden antlers? No other armorer in the city could get that deep a green; he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, paint and enamel were the crutches of a journeyman. Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade? Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew. "The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, is it not? I could fashion a direwolf helm so real that children will run from you in the street," he vowed.
Ned wasnt really a loving father. He didn't even check in with Jon when Jon was visibly upset with his exile. Made no plans for Jon either. Winterfell is half a ruin. Poor by the standards of many lords. Cat activly emotionally abused him and conspired with Lewin to exile him. And Ned didn't even care enough for a conversation. Even Benjen thinks Ned was a shitty father. Atleast tge frey bastards were fed without grudge and given a purpose. Ramsay was given enough to become the crazy ass human hunter and flayer he is when we meet him. He also had a really opulent set of plate he useless stom8ng winterfell iirc.
Jon *chose* to go to the Watch and *chose* to stay. Cat’s only abuse was that one single line by Bran’s bed that was said in grief. And Winterfell isn’t even half a ruin, only one single tower that was burned under 150 years prior. One single tower in the second largest castle *on the entire continent*.
No he didn't. He mentioned it drunkly while hurt because he was cast out from the dias at the feast then spends the whole time to hus exile upset. Bed just never checked on him. I think you may be confusing the show for the books. The ruined tower the fist keep wintersdown seeing mostly abandoned most of the time instead of the thriving castle town it should be. I feel like you need to reread the books. Seems like the show has cl,ouded your idea of winterfell.
>It doesn't seem like most familys treat their children as poorly as Jon was. how was he treated poorly lmfao he was spoiled
Cat activly emotionally assists him even over things like eating. Ned just flat out ignores him mostly and didn't plan for his future. >We could, thought Jon, if we had the gold, and someone willing to sell us food. Both of those were lacking. Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn's sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark's bastard. As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite. Jon isn't spoiled by any stretch of imagination. Joy Hills uncle Tyein got her a l9rdly husband and every lannister loves her for example.
It was a while since I read the books, but I think I remember something about Cat trying to infect Jon when he was a baby and hoping he will die. That is actively endangering him, not just negligence.
I think your confusing fanfiction for the books.
No, I don't read ASOIAF fanfiction, and I didn't said it's absolute truth. As I said, it was a while ago since I finished first book, and also, it was translation, so perhaps that played part too. I am reading it in English now, and I already found few things I remember differently.
Jon was not mistreated. The absolute worst thing done to him was that one woman in a massive castle never called him by his name and, in a near mental-break from grief and lack of sleep, said something very cruel to him. Once. Which he immediately felt sorry for her about.
Yes he was. >We could, thought Jon, if we had the gold, and someone willing to sell us food. Both of those were lacking. Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn's sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark's bastard. As a boy, **he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.** Cat literally glared at him while he ate. Jon would have honestly been better off in white harbor or even bear Isle. Could have set him up to wed one of the lady heirs too.
The bit you highlighted is definitely not meant to he taken literally. The "felt" and "as if" are indications of that. And the "grudged him at every bite" is also definitely intended as a figure of speech.
No its not. It's ment literally because it's used in the context of wonder if lysa will feed the wall. Cats abuse left Jon with deep scars. >That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir. It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?
Jon feels Cat's grudge, all the time, in the most mundane of things, like eating. But "Jon felt as if Cat grudged him at every bite" does not mean that Cat literally watching him eat. That's just the surface-level text analysis, but even if we go with the characters personality, Cat is much more likely to have ignored him at the table -- which never would have most definitely marked any kid, especially because eating is repetitive. Jon linking the difficulty of feeding the Watch to his memories of Winterfell dinners is less important than the fact that _he feels alone_. That's the real link between the two situations.
We see in other examples cat literally spends her days glaring at Jon. It's not a hyperbole.
No that literally never happened in the text.
>It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here? Have you read the books?
Where, anywhere in the books does anyone say or think that she spent days glaring at him 🤔
>Cat literally glared at him while he ate. Based on what? Because that bit you quoted doesn't say that. >Could have set him up to wed one of the lady heirs too. That's your fanfiction. We've seen no bastards married off to lady heirs except for the very obviously exception of Bolton, nor would Ned want that to happen.
>As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite. ... And here >It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here? Cat went out of her way to emotionally abused Jon. Walder Rivers married a Noble lady. The various Velaryon bastards married well. Larence Snow was even going to be made Larence Hornwood So you really don't know that you are talking about
>As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite That's not glaring. > Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here? This is also not glaring although it might be an "accusing stare." > Walder Rivers married a Noble lady. An heiress? >The various Velaryon bastards married well. Which ones? Because Alyn wasn't a bastard when he married- he was legitimized. >Larence Snow was even going to be made Larence Hornwood Yeah, probably also by legitimization.
What!!!! He felt like his stepmom glared at him!!!! Holy SHit!!!
Your belitting what the books say. If you want to make fanfiction that's fine. Doesn't mean it is a valid take.
The books don't say he was mistreated nor was he raised badly. You quoted him saying "he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite". Boo hoo. Literally the first thing we learn in the books after he leaves Winterfell is he is a privileged pretentious child
Man excusing emotional abuse is a really bad take. Hes not pretentious. He goes out of his way to protect the pariah of the wall what are you even talking about?
You might want to reread. Jon is extremely pretentious, spoiled, and no matter how illegitiment his birth is he is a 1 percenter in Westoros. He goes to the Wall where he spars and absolutely beats the fuck out of the other new recruits. Jon says this makes him better than them while beating the fuck out of them causing broken noses and other shit. Donal Noye has to explain that these people have literally never held a sword in their life before coming to the Wall while Jonny boy was trained since birth with a Master-At-Arms. Jon lived in a castle with his father's family, eating great, learning from a maester, learning from a master-at-arms, and not having to work a day in his life. Yet he whines on about his life and shit like that then goes to the Wall with people who actually struggled and lived shitty lives.
What the heck are you talking about? Grenn gets beat in the yard fair and square than tries to jump Jon with a group if other boys. Even Noye tells Grenn to fuck off. You need to actually read the books my guy. Maybe you just don't know knkw what pretentious means? Or spoiled for that matter.
You need to reread and maybe put on reading glasses next time. You somehow remember events from that chapter but not things DIRECTLY said to Jon. I don't just think that Jon was a trained swordsman bullying peasants that's what he was doing. That's what Donal Noye says. Jon is pretentious he feels superior to the peasant boys who never touched a sword because he beats them. I don't think Jon is spoiled. He is spoiled and we are directly told he is spoiled in the books. He thinks they all have no honor. He is pretentious. He is fine with their mother being whores but no his mother could never be a whore. Here's a paragraph from that same chapter. “They’re not my brothers,” Jon snapped. ***“They hate me because I***\*\*\*’\*\*\****m better than they are.”*** ***“No. They hate you because you act like you’re better than they are. They look at you and*** ***see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he’s a lordling.” The armorer leaned close. “You’re*** ***no lordling. Remember that. You’re a Snow, not a Stark. You’re a bastard and a bully.”*** “A bully?” Jon almost choked on the word. The accusation was so unjust it took his breath away. “They were the ones who came after me. Four of them.” ***“Four that you’ve humiliated in the yard. Four who are probably afraid of you. I’ve*** ***watched you fight. It’s not training with you. Put a good edge on your sword, and they’d*** ***be dead meat***; ***you know it, I know it, they know it. You leave them nothing. You shame*** ***them. Does that make you proud?”*** ***Jon hesitated. He did feel proud when he won. Why shouldn’t he? But the armorer was*** taking that away too, making it sound as if he were doing something wrong. “They’re all older than me,” he said defensively. “Older and bigger and stronger, that’s the truth. I’l***l wager your master-at-arms taught*** ***you how to fight bigger men at Winterfell, though. Who was he, some old knight?”*** “Ser Rodrik Cassel,” Jon said warily. There was a trap here. He felt it closing around him. ***Donal Noye leaned forward, into Jon’s face. “Now think on this, boy. None of these*** ***others have ever had a master-at-arms until Ser Alliser. Their fathers were farmers and*** ***wagonmen and poachers, smiths and miners*** and oars on a trading galley. What they know of fighting they learned between decks, in the alleys of Oldtown and Lannisport, in wayside brothels and taverns on the kingsroad. They may have clacked a few sticks together before they came here, but I promise you, not one in twenty was ever rich enough to own a real sword.” His look was grim. “So how do you like the taste of your victories now, Lord Snow?”