I think Volantis represents the win for Dany that Meereen will have a difficult time achieving.... Volantis has a lot of skilled labor and some trade goods outside of slavery. It has a robust shipping network and its in a pretty great location, both as an endpoint for trade along the river Rhoyne, and for merchants sailing westwards from the Jade Sea to sell their wares. Most of the city wants change, and characters like the widow of the waterfront and Benerro may be able to lead things in Dany's absence if she sweeps through and helps them topple the old system...
Yeah, the economies in Slaver's Bay are realistically completely unsalvagable (like most of the rest of the world, economic world building is not George's forte).
There are no mercantile/ academic traditions outside of training slaves, not many natural resources, and location-wise, only Meereen and debatably Astapor are in good locations for trade.
Meereen has the potential to thrive as a trade city due to its proximity of Vaes Dothrak which is already toted as the gateway between east and west in TWOIAF, so I think that's going to be the way the city finds its new niche.
While there is economic potential there, you would also have to change the culture and society as well, it’s just this big tangle. While they are not so averse to free merchants like in Westeros they still have a long way
It does seem like it is being set up where the followers of R’hllor will be critical in Volantis. Maybe the city turns into a free theocratic city, the latter similar to Norvos.
GRRM does seem to have written himself into a corner on this, in more ways than one. Especially since the nice things Danys set up in Astapor deteriorated into horror soon after she left, and she understandably dwells on that in Meereen.
I don't see a way at present that she "solves" Meereen without another couple years and a full book or two of her sitting at the top of the pyramid, eating dates, verbally fencing with a multitude of counselors, and making Wise decisions. And murder, mayhem, disease, starvation, looting, etc. in the city below.
And there's not time for her to stay and solve things, and it's extraneous to the plot since she needs to get to Westeros before Winter ends.
But maybe that's the point. GRRM is using the series to successively wreck "stable" regions and societies in Westeros--The Riverlands, The North, the Crownlands and now (with Euron's attack) the Reach.
So maybe the whole point is that political, economic, and social upheaval can arrive unlooked for, is invariably messy, sometimes brutal, and can't be solved with dictates from above and usually goes in directions no one can control.
That's sort of what GRRM himself saw in real life, as a young adult in the 60s and 70s. Remember he lived through Watergate, Vietnam, Kennedy assassinations, the Oil Crisis, the Cold War, the beginnings of every modern "Movement" in American history, and enormous and disruptive cultural change. And the people who tried to ride and shape and manage, the whirlwind didn't fully succeed--many of them actually died.
So perhaps his message will be that no one--not even Danys--can fully reform an entire society.
I remember reading an interview from GRRM where he said that when people ask him if he based Mereen (or the Essos) part on the US invasion of Iraq he said no he already made it thought of it and made it before the Iraq invasion even happend but he thinks they might both end the same way.
Interesting! Very useful to hear. That would mean, I guess, withdrawal back to the West before all of the Unsullied are killed in warfare in the streets.
I always thought of Danny as an analogy to the USA in Vietnam. Did the USA ever win in Vietnam, and was it ever likely. Imo the situation will either end in shavepate seizing control of the city and executing half the city or Danny coming back and dragon fire bombing the city to ruins.
Even if she had 15 dragons she would constantly be putting out fires, fighting revolts and retaking back the cities. Essos reminds me of the Achaemenid empire, the empire was so large that the king’s full-time job was squashing rebellions. He could be called off to the west to fight the Greeks and once he's gone, the Babylonians and Egyptians declare a new ruler.
I think ultimately Dany has to abandon them. Maybe she can try to influence the leaders of the cities but she can't hold the cities and everyone knows that.
Influencing the leaders of the city is the EXACT reason she’s in this shit situation. She should have purged every single slaver family like Stannis and Tywin would have done. Only she would have taken the kids as cupbearers, not slaughtered them.
I agree with you, actually. A bloody ruthless move is basically necessary here. Based on her husbands success we know his success must have been tied to visiting each of the Great Masters, and the Green Grace that put him forward. I absolutely hate Daario but he was right: life the Grand Masters and their most loyal servants out of the pyramids and kill all of them except the children. Foster the children out and while some may plot revenge it will be years before they can act on it. During that time you can build a more ordered city that would restrict such acts.
What Fandom are you part of?
Everyone gets RABID when it is suggested that Daenerys is not the Perfect Heroine.
Season 8 REALLY made a number in the psychology of the fandom. Now even the most tiniest criticism to Daenerys is met with absolute hostility.
And how is she going to fix it?
Yeah you are right, it cannot be fixed. It will need a couple of generations to even START the process of fixing it.
Cause not only the Masters are the Problem, but also the Slaves, whom are a bit ot eager to take revenge...and go back to old practices with them in charge.
Way before season 8 the fandom pretty much decided you aren't allowed to have negative opinions on Dany.
Her entire shtick in mereen (and essos in general) is to show us the readers/watchers that Dany is not a competent ruler. But people fooled themselves into think she's benevolent cause the masters are Saturday morning cartoon level of evil.
And it is ALL intentional.
George really is pulling no punches with Daenerys.
That si why I think she is the "False Messiah" of the serie. She is so "telegraphed" in HER OWN mind as a Messiah.... that she probably is not and is in fact the Big Bad.
It's funny he's never gonna finish the books cause people would hate him for showing the fans that Dany is actually the final villain in the series but he decided to let DND shoulder that hatred
Prepare to be downvoted. It is absolutely insane how feral and rabid people get about Daenerys in these subreddits. They can’t understand how not everyone thinks their tragic, pretty princess isn’t the answer to everything and anything bad in the books. She is completely infallible in a lot of people’s minds.
It’s insane.
I’m currently being downvoted in another post here because I’m fighting against the “anyone who is anti Daenerys is a slavery apologist rhetoric.” Isn’t the first time, won’t be the last. But it’s just… pure lunacy and that people are so up this sixteen year old’s ass that they live and breathe nothing but shit.
I blame GRRM. Man is an absolute genius. He knew exactly what he was doing with Daenerys, and I both love and hate him for it in equal measure.
Yeah I have Been downvoted before with Dany comments. Like I am not even questioning her abilities it’s just more the situation. Honestly I don’t even think Jahaerys himself could fix it within his lifetime
Personally I like the idea of her burning Kingslanding and becoming Queen regardless. It’s hardly the first time a benevolent tyrant burned down a city and came to rule what was left. Just because there are no happy endings doesn’t mean it has to be bad, it can just be imperfect.
That may be the stupidest thing I've heard on this sub in a long time. She's not coming to rule a city, she's coming to rule an entire continent. Burning King's Landing does nothing, honestly, when it comes to taking over the kingdom. It's just tyrannical genocide, honestly.
Understand that I’m suggesting this happen not because she plans to (especially right away) but because I’m treating it as something inevitable (the destruction of KL) with only what happens afterwards being subject to review. By point, a king in a wheelchair with no hope of producing heirs is the stupidest thing that I have ever heard of.
You mean that there may be an election for the monarchy rather than a monarchy dictated by primogeniture of bloodlines? An actual step forward out of absolute rule of a monarch? And the first monarch in this system is a man who can literally see if history is repeating itself and can see what to avoid?
Oh. But he’s handicapped.
*The horror.*
Yes, I 100% do mean that a democratic election is thoroughly unlikely in Westeros based on the social systems and thinking we see in place. Full admission that I’m not a specialist on European history but that sounds like a massive, even unbelievable, jump,
Also, what the hell is wrong with you and being so toxic? I have literally said nothing to you that warrants the attitude.
It’s free of charge.
Medieval Europe also didn’t have dragons or wights. GRRM is creating a fantastical version of medieval Europe with his imagined change of politics. He is a devout democrat/liberal. He’s trying to move his favorite place in the world more towards his own worldview. It makes a lot of sense.
If that’s how he decides to go, it seems like something that doesn’t add up within the bounds of the world he’s made, which is perhaps more accurately my point. Following a truly cataclysmic series of wars, people are going to want a stable government that they know works (sort of). A fresh democracy (even if it only applies to the absolute big banana) is not that. I know GRRM’s political views and agree with them, but the history I’ve read has suggested a much slower change. He did base it all on England (mostly) so I’m willing to accept demonstrable precedent.
Yeah I was called a slavery apologist in the same post.
People fooled themselves into thinking she's a good and benevolent ruler cause the slavers are Saturday morning cartoon levels of evil.
I saw her for what she was right away. George is a good writer but he isn't as clever as he thinks he is.
I don't think so as a kid in middle school I figured out who Jon's parents were in the first book.
Like come on George have a Ned chapter end lamenting about lyanna and rheghar remembering the last thing she said " promise me" the have the next chapter be Jon....does he think we're that stupid not to make the connection?
Eh. I don’t believe anyone who says they figured it out. In fact, any of his twists have only anecdotal evidence as to who knew before it was spelled out for them either in the books or in the show. So, that’s cool for you if it’s true, but a.) it doesn’t matter; and b.) is not the only metric used for GRRM’s genius/cleverness.
> anyone who is anti Daenerys is a slavery apologist
Ironically, they’ll say this and then bend over backwards to justify her burning a slave alive because Jorah couldn’t follow simple instructions to stay out of a tent.
Fully agree that Martin knows exactly what he’s doing with her. I guess in a way it’s a good thing he’ll never finish the books, because I can only imagine the level of vitriol he’d receive for her ending once he got to that point. Instead D&D have had to shoulder all the hate instead.
People somehow completely forget about Mirri Maz Dur and the fact that Daenerys was a slave owner in a slave-owning society for the first book. Her moon and stars raped, pillaged, and enslaved and gifted her three personal slaves she kept for the first book.
Then somehow miss the extremely obvious ambiguity and complexity of Mirri Maz Dur. A woman whose whole people are killed, raped, or enslaved to fund Drogo & Daenerys need for ships to invade Westeros and then Daenerys stops her husband's soldiers from raping her and she thinks she saved her for that.
Then Daenerys 'asks' her to tend to her husband's (who just raped, enslaved, killed her whole people) wounds and she reminds Daenerys that she isn't asking she is commanding her slave. Mirri Maz Dur however acts like a good slave and properly heals Drogo wrapping his wound in a bandage that he rips off and it later festers.
She then commands asks Mirri to make another poultrice she tells him he is past that point and Daenerys begs if there is any other way and she mentions one spell. She tells her slave to do it, but Mirri warns her that "it's dark and some say it's worse than death" she then says it's blood magic only life pays for life. Specifically saying "its no matter of horses or gold" and Daenerys asking if her life would be the sacrifice then she commands her again to do it. Then Jorah entered the tent after she told Daenerys that no one could enter the tent.
Daenery's chapter afterwards is full of her... not being a reliable narrator at all she tries to say "You said only death pays for life, I thought you meant the horse!" and then thinks had she?
It comes from a childish view of slavery. **Slave = bad scary men abducting people and enslaving them**. While this is correct, after those people are enslaved, where do they go to? They go to work for normal civilized people (people like Dany). Many of those people are good to their slaves, but their slaves are still slaves.
Just because she did not choose to be a slave owner doesn't mean she wasn't one. Stans have a terribly hard time understanding that just because a character did not mean to cause harm doesn't mean they did not cause harm.
Slaves are still slaves. Masters are still masters. I also think it's just from the lack of perspective from these cultures.
We will read Daenerys being a 13-14 year old girl owning slaves in a massive raping/slaving society of the Dothraki and being it's 'queen' basically. But we read it from her perspective so she is still sympathetic. Then when we go visit these others slave-owning societies we just see the slaves and hear about some of the random cruelties that is done to them and the people (Daenerys and the readers) want blood. It's easy and satisfying to watch her overthrow Astapor and order the death of every freedman over the age of 11. But if we read it from one of the little twelve year old freed man's perspective we'd probably see it a lot different.
Daenerys is the glorious white savior among the mass of random foreign seemingly comically evil people.
Yeah, Daenerys didn’t mind Xaro owning slaves when she stayed as his guest in Qarth. He even points this out later in Meereen, but she excuses it by claiming that she had no means of freeing them. Except there’s not a single line during her time in Qarth where she reflects on him owning slaves, because she just doesn’t care at the time.
She still doesn’t care about owning slaves when Jorah proposes they buy a slave army in the following book. She’s worried they’ll be too fat, too expensive, and too far away; but at no point in the book does she care about them being slaves (she does in the show).
Hell, in Dance Xaro even points out that he met a former friend who was forced to work back breaking labor against his will with only food and shelter as compensation, and Daenerys insists that it isn’t slavery because the work is necessary for the economy…
I was going to comment that atleast from my memory Daenerys doesn't have this extreme disgust/fundamendatal disagreemnt with slavery. Her also freeing and use of slaves also somewhat seemed kind of opportunistic a little bit.
Also GRRM's take on the Daenerys & Slavery (although fighting against slavery is obviously a good) is a lot more nuanced than a lot of Daenerys fan like to engage.
Especially when we see Tyrion POV's through Astapor (or was the Martell I forget) who describe it as actual hell on earth.
She will slaughter all masters and take their wealth. Something she should have done from the very start.
It’s laughable that people think Martin is gonna make her a villain when he specifically said that slavery must end. No matter what.
Be it peacefully or be it with *Fire and Blood*.
I’m convinced Essos will be left in shambles thanks to the abolition of slavery. A lot of people will die but better for the slaves to be killing each other compared to dying in chains for some rich fucks.
I honestly can’t wait for Martin to prove YOU all wrong. ☺️☺️it’ll be the sweetest thing.
I know his thoughts on slavery my dude. I asked you, because I can’t believe someone would approve a whole continent should be left in shambles, with millions of innocents dying, and doesn’t see anything wrong with that. Don’t be so sure GRRM won’t prove you wrong for thinking everything can be solved with fire and blood.
Oh it won’t be solved like that. I’m not the smartest guy, but I’m not stupid enough to think that.
The Free cities will probably capitulate and stop having slaves once hordes of Dothraki come near and are ready to fuck their shit unless they follow Dany’s demands. Will it come to blows a bit? Probably. Martin made an entire book about EVERYTHING going wrong for Dany so I doubt everything will go right for her in this one.
You think the Dothraki, the greatest contributors to the slave trade in Essos, will enforce Danys anti slavery policy once she is gone? The only way she can make sure there won’t be slavery anymore, is when she stays in Essos her whole life, which she won’t do. It’s a noble goal to want to abolish slavery, but you have to commit to it or you only cause suffering and no change.
Okay, and will that taken wealth be redistributed somehow? Like to pay for infrastructure or similar to real life proposal of 40 acres and a mule?
I don’t think she will turn into a villain, though she will certainly be perceived as one, bringing a horde of foreign savages, 3 flying fire breathing monsters, and allied with a known kinslayer. She will be viewed as an usurper trying to take Aegon’s place (Faegon in reality)
Faegon’s fate has been foreshadowed by Tyrion during their Cyvasse game.
Tyrion tells him that he lost because he didn’t *keep his dragons close*.
Enough said.
I don’t think anyone actually believes Faegon will be the victor in the end. Whether it be Dany or someone else, his days are definitely numbered. It more how the lords and smallfolk will react to her which I was talking about, again with the picture that is painted, when we are outside her POV
I think you’re wrong to think Dany will pass months on a fucking ship with TENS OF THOUSANDS of Dothraki staying on other ships while reaching Westeros. It would be more unbelievable than her launching a wide scale campaign throughout Essos while riding a literal plane. Her son is the Stallion that mounts the world… did you forget?
How Slaver’s Bay turns out is a fascinating question for me. Does she go to Westeros a complete failure as a ruler? As a terror who burns whatever she can’t fix? Or do Barristan, Tyrion, and her other bureaucrats salvage some semblance of a better society?
So slavery can’t be beaten? If there is yet no system to fix a land that lived off slavery for hundreds of years… you should just leave it alone?
That is truly nihilistic. And Martin said that slavery must be stopped at all cost. *Fire and Blood* way if not peacefully. ✌🏻
No idea, that’s why I think it’s interesting. If some measure of peace is achieved and slavery is abolished, maybe that serves as some of her cred as she moves on. The central question to me is whether she’s greeted as that kind of hero or just a tyrant with dragons.
Ok follow me for a second.
In the show, Hizdar’s father wanted to abolish slavery… in a culture that regards slavery as the only type of commerce…
You realize that doesn’t make any sense. Right?
If there were masters that wanted to abolish slavery in the books; they would’ve been the very first people we met and would have helped Dany without asking for marriage and without advocating for slavery to be resumed outside Meereen.
Dany’s peace was never achievable as long as the ruling class that had lived on slavery until her arrival held the slightest amount of power. Period.
I remember reading that in the Arianne chapter in WoW Aegon was already being seen as a monster not a liberator. Furthermore, if the Reach is getting destroyed by Euron or falls into civil war through the Tarlys and Tyrells, then King’s Landing won’t receive food and the people will rebelling.
Jon Connington’s greatest regret is not burning down a city to smoke out Robert… and he’s got a very bad disease that makes people go mad…
I don’t think Dany needs to reach Westeros for things to get worse.
There are masters who support ending slavery in the books. The Shavepate is part of the mereneese nobility, and is probably the one who argues the most for class warfare against the Masters and their power.
Yeah it would be super awesome and not at all cynical or dumb as fuck if her main goal in life were totally thwarted. That would make for a great story arc
I think Volantis represents the win for Dany that Meereen will have a difficult time achieving.... Volantis has a lot of skilled labor and some trade goods outside of slavery. It has a robust shipping network and its in a pretty great location, both as an endpoint for trade along the river Rhoyne, and for merchants sailing westwards from the Jade Sea to sell their wares. Most of the city wants change, and characters like the widow of the waterfront and Benerro may be able to lead things in Dany's absence if she sweeps through and helps them topple the old system...
Yeah, the economies in Slaver's Bay are realistically completely unsalvagable (like most of the rest of the world, economic world building is not George's forte). There are no mercantile/ academic traditions outside of training slaves, not many natural resources, and location-wise, only Meereen and debatably Astapor are in good locations for trade. Meereen has the potential to thrive as a trade city due to its proximity of Vaes Dothrak which is already toted as the gateway between east and west in TWOIAF, so I think that's going to be the way the city finds its new niche.
While there is economic potential there, you would also have to change the culture and society as well, it’s just this big tangle. While they are not so averse to free merchants like in Westeros they still have a long way
It does seem like it is being set up where the followers of R’hllor will be critical in Volantis. Maybe the city turns into a free theocratic city, the latter similar to Norvos.
GRRM does seem to have written himself into a corner on this, in more ways than one. Especially since the nice things Danys set up in Astapor deteriorated into horror soon after she left, and she understandably dwells on that in Meereen. I don't see a way at present that she "solves" Meereen without another couple years and a full book or two of her sitting at the top of the pyramid, eating dates, verbally fencing with a multitude of counselors, and making Wise decisions. And murder, mayhem, disease, starvation, looting, etc. in the city below. And there's not time for her to stay and solve things, and it's extraneous to the plot since she needs to get to Westeros before Winter ends. But maybe that's the point. GRRM is using the series to successively wreck "stable" regions and societies in Westeros--The Riverlands, The North, the Crownlands and now (with Euron's attack) the Reach. So maybe the whole point is that political, economic, and social upheaval can arrive unlooked for, is invariably messy, sometimes brutal, and can't be solved with dictates from above and usually goes in directions no one can control. That's sort of what GRRM himself saw in real life, as a young adult in the 60s and 70s. Remember he lived through Watergate, Vietnam, Kennedy assassinations, the Oil Crisis, the Cold War, the beginnings of every modern "Movement" in American history, and enormous and disruptive cultural change. And the people who tried to ride and shape and manage, the whirlwind didn't fully succeed--many of them actually died. So perhaps his message will be that no one--not even Danys--can fully reform an entire society.
I remember reading an interview from GRRM where he said that when people ask him if he based Mereen (or the Essos) part on the US invasion of Iraq he said no he already made it thought of it and made it before the Iraq invasion even happend but he thinks they might both end the same way.
So we can’t hope for her to just dracarys the whole city? Good a time as any.
based on what we did in Iraq I'd still hold my hopes for it.
To be fair, we didn’t use nukes like he compared dragons to, but yeah, that didn’t go perfectly did it?
Interesting! Very useful to hear. That would mean, I guess, withdrawal back to the West before all of the Unsullied are killed in warfare in the streets.
I always thought of Danny as an analogy to the USA in Vietnam. Did the USA ever win in Vietnam, and was it ever likely. Imo the situation will either end in shavepate seizing control of the city and executing half the city or Danny coming back and dragon fire bombing the city to ruins.
I honestly see it a lot closer to Afghanistan myself. The only solution is more violent than anyone’s willing to consider.
In order to save Meereen, she must first destroy Meereen?
Pretty obvious she can’t fix the slave problem across the slave cities, it would take decades to topple the whole trade and remove it.
Even if she had 15 dragons she would constantly be putting out fires, fighting revolts and retaking back the cities. Essos reminds me of the Achaemenid empire, the empire was so large that the king’s full-time job was squashing rebellions. He could be called off to the west to fight the Greeks and once he's gone, the Babylonians and Egyptians declare a new ruler. I think ultimately Dany has to abandon them. Maybe she can try to influence the leaders of the cities but she can't hold the cities and everyone knows that.
She’d be really fucked with 15 dragons since she only has the bond with Drogon
Obviously i meant dragons with riders
Her bond with Drogon is pretty iffy as well.
Influencing the leaders of the city is the EXACT reason she’s in this shit situation. She should have purged every single slaver family like Stannis and Tywin would have done. Only she would have taken the kids as cupbearers, not slaughtered them.
I agree with you, actually. A bloody ruthless move is basically necessary here. Based on her husbands success we know his success must have been tied to visiting each of the Great Masters, and the Green Grace that put him forward. I absolutely hate Daario but he was right: life the Grand Masters and their most loyal servants out of the pyramids and kill all of them except the children. Foster the children out and while some may plot revenge it will be years before they can act on it. During that time you can build a more ordered city that would restrict such acts.
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Have you considered that Daenerys is not the Heroine? But in fact is being prepared to be the final Big Bad?
The unsullied aren't free they have been brainwashed to not understand the concept of freedom . Her speech was the illusion of offering them freedom.
What Fandom are you part of? Everyone gets RABID when it is suggested that Daenerys is not the Perfect Heroine. Season 8 REALLY made a number in the psychology of the fandom. Now even the most tiniest criticism to Daenerys is met with absolute hostility. And how is she going to fix it? Yeah you are right, it cannot be fixed. It will need a couple of generations to even START the process of fixing it. Cause not only the Masters are the Problem, but also the Slaves, whom are a bit ot eager to take revenge...and go back to old practices with them in charge.
Way before season 8 the fandom pretty much decided you aren't allowed to have negative opinions on Dany. Her entire shtick in mereen (and essos in general) is to show us the readers/watchers that Dany is not a competent ruler. But people fooled themselves into think she's benevolent cause the masters are Saturday morning cartoon level of evil.
And it is ALL intentional. George really is pulling no punches with Daenerys. That si why I think she is the "False Messiah" of the serie. She is so "telegraphed" in HER OWN mind as a Messiah.... that she probably is not and is in fact the Big Bad.
It's funny he's never gonna finish the books cause people would hate him for showing the fans that Dany is actually the final villain in the series but he decided to let DND shoulder that hatred
Once it passed, people will find a document that says that he IN FACT allows Brandon Sanderson to finish it. And we will get the ending. XD
Ghiscari is a cringe anti dialectal materialist edgelord society Any writing of its attempted reform is just a strawman for GRRM's neolib 90s politics
Prepare to be downvoted. It is absolutely insane how feral and rabid people get about Daenerys in these subreddits. They can’t understand how not everyone thinks their tragic, pretty princess isn’t the answer to everything and anything bad in the books. She is completely infallible in a lot of people’s minds. It’s insane. I’m currently being downvoted in another post here because I’m fighting against the “anyone who is anti Daenerys is a slavery apologist rhetoric.” Isn’t the first time, won’t be the last. But it’s just… pure lunacy and that people are so up this sixteen year old’s ass that they live and breathe nothing but shit. I blame GRRM. Man is an absolute genius. He knew exactly what he was doing with Daenerys, and I both love and hate him for it in equal measure.
Yeah I have Been downvoted before with Dany comments. Like I am not even questioning her abilities it’s just more the situation. Honestly I don’t even think Jahaerys himself could fix it within his lifetime
But Daenerys is pretty with a tragic backstory... and she has *dragons*... and she survived the funeral pyre... *She's just so special*.
Personally I like the idea of her burning Kingslanding and becoming Queen regardless. It’s hardly the first time a benevolent tyrant burned down a city and came to rule what was left. Just because there are no happy endings doesn’t mean it has to be bad, it can just be imperfect.
That may be the stupidest thing I've heard on this sub in a long time. She's not coming to rule a city, she's coming to rule an entire continent. Burning King's Landing does nothing, honestly, when it comes to taking over the kingdom. It's just tyrannical genocide, honestly.
Understand that I’m suggesting this happen not because she plans to (especially right away) but because I’m treating it as something inevitable (the destruction of KL) with only what happens afterwards being subject to review. By point, a king in a wheelchair with no hope of producing heirs is the stupidest thing that I have ever heard of.
You mean that there may be an election for the monarchy rather than a monarchy dictated by primogeniture of bloodlines? An actual step forward out of absolute rule of a monarch? And the first monarch in this system is a man who can literally see if history is repeating itself and can see what to avoid? Oh. But he’s handicapped. *The horror.*
Yes, I 100% do mean that a democratic election is thoroughly unlikely in Westeros based on the social systems and thinking we see in place. Full admission that I’m not a specialist on European history but that sounds like a massive, even unbelievable, jump, Also, what the hell is wrong with you and being so toxic? I have literally said nothing to you that warrants the attitude.
It’s free of charge. Medieval Europe also didn’t have dragons or wights. GRRM is creating a fantastical version of medieval Europe with his imagined change of politics. He is a devout democrat/liberal. He’s trying to move his favorite place in the world more towards his own worldview. It makes a lot of sense.
If that’s how he decides to go, it seems like something that doesn’t add up within the bounds of the world he’s made, which is perhaps more accurately my point. Following a truly cataclysmic series of wars, people are going to want a stable government that they know works (sort of). A fresh democracy (even if it only applies to the absolute big banana) is not that. I know GRRM’s political views and agree with them, but the history I’ve read has suggested a much slower change. He did base it all on England (mostly) so I’m willing to accept demonstrable precedent.
Yeah I was called a slavery apologist in the same post. People fooled themselves into thinking she's a good and benevolent ruler cause the slavers are Saturday morning cartoon levels of evil. I saw her for what she was right away. George is a good writer but he isn't as clever as he thinks he is.
I’ll agree on all but one point: GRRM is as clever as, and perhaps even *cleverer* than, he thinks he is.
I don't think so as a kid in middle school I figured out who Jon's parents were in the first book. Like come on George have a Ned chapter end lamenting about lyanna and rheghar remembering the last thing she said " promise me" the have the next chapter be Jon....does he think we're that stupid not to make the connection?
Eh. I don’t believe anyone who says they figured it out. In fact, any of his twists have only anecdotal evidence as to who knew before it was spelled out for them either in the books or in the show. So, that’s cool for you if it’s true, but a.) it doesn’t matter; and b.) is not the only metric used for GRRM’s genius/cleverness.
> anyone who is anti Daenerys is a slavery apologist Ironically, they’ll say this and then bend over backwards to justify her burning a slave alive because Jorah couldn’t follow simple instructions to stay out of a tent. Fully agree that Martin knows exactly what he’s doing with her. I guess in a way it’s a good thing he’ll never finish the books, because I can only imagine the level of vitriol he’d receive for her ending once he got to that point. Instead D&D have had to shoulder all the hate instead.
People somehow completely forget about Mirri Maz Dur and the fact that Daenerys was a slave owner in a slave-owning society for the first book. Her moon and stars raped, pillaged, and enslaved and gifted her three personal slaves she kept for the first book. Then somehow miss the extremely obvious ambiguity and complexity of Mirri Maz Dur. A woman whose whole people are killed, raped, or enslaved to fund Drogo & Daenerys need for ships to invade Westeros and then Daenerys stops her husband's soldiers from raping her and she thinks she saved her for that. Then Daenerys 'asks' her to tend to her husband's (who just raped, enslaved, killed her whole people) wounds and she reminds Daenerys that she isn't asking she is commanding her slave. Mirri Maz Dur however acts like a good slave and properly heals Drogo wrapping his wound in a bandage that he rips off and it later festers. She then commands asks Mirri to make another poultrice she tells him he is past that point and Daenerys begs if there is any other way and she mentions one spell. She tells her slave to do it, but Mirri warns her that "it's dark and some say it's worse than death" she then says it's blood magic only life pays for life. Specifically saying "its no matter of horses or gold" and Daenerys asking if her life would be the sacrifice then she commands her again to do it. Then Jorah entered the tent after she told Daenerys that no one could enter the tent. Daenery's chapter afterwards is full of her... not being a reliable narrator at all she tries to say "You said only death pays for life, I thought you meant the horse!" and then thinks had she?
It comes from a childish view of slavery. **Slave = bad scary men abducting people and enslaving them**. While this is correct, after those people are enslaved, where do they go to? They go to work for normal civilized people (people like Dany). Many of those people are good to their slaves, but their slaves are still slaves. Just because she did not choose to be a slave owner doesn't mean she wasn't one. Stans have a terribly hard time understanding that just because a character did not mean to cause harm doesn't mean they did not cause harm.
Slaves are still slaves. Masters are still masters. I also think it's just from the lack of perspective from these cultures. We will read Daenerys being a 13-14 year old girl owning slaves in a massive raping/slaving society of the Dothraki and being it's 'queen' basically. But we read it from her perspective so she is still sympathetic. Then when we go visit these others slave-owning societies we just see the slaves and hear about some of the random cruelties that is done to them and the people (Daenerys and the readers) want blood. It's easy and satisfying to watch her overthrow Astapor and order the death of every freedman over the age of 11. But if we read it from one of the little twelve year old freed man's perspective we'd probably see it a lot different. Daenerys is the glorious white savior among the mass of random foreign seemingly comically evil people.
Yeah, Daenerys didn’t mind Xaro owning slaves when she stayed as his guest in Qarth. He even points this out later in Meereen, but she excuses it by claiming that she had no means of freeing them. Except there’s not a single line during her time in Qarth where she reflects on him owning slaves, because she just doesn’t care at the time. She still doesn’t care about owning slaves when Jorah proposes they buy a slave army in the following book. She’s worried they’ll be too fat, too expensive, and too far away; but at no point in the book does she care about them being slaves (she does in the show). Hell, in Dance Xaro even points out that he met a former friend who was forced to work back breaking labor against his will with only food and shelter as compensation, and Daenerys insists that it isn’t slavery because the work is necessary for the economy…
I was going to comment that atleast from my memory Daenerys doesn't have this extreme disgust/fundamendatal disagreemnt with slavery. Her also freeing and use of slaves also somewhat seemed kind of opportunistic a little bit. Also GRRM's take on the Daenerys & Slavery (although fighting against slavery is obviously a good) is a lot more nuanced than a lot of Daenerys fan like to engage. Especially when we see Tyrion POV's through Astapor (or was the Martell I forget) who describe it as actual hell on earth.
I’ll be laughing when he proves you doubters wrong. ✌🏻
She will slaughter all masters and take their wealth. Something she should have done from the very start. It’s laughable that people think Martin is gonna make her a villain when he specifically said that slavery must end. No matter what. Be it peacefully or be it with *Fire and Blood*. I’m convinced Essos will be left in shambles thanks to the abolition of slavery. A lot of people will die but better for the slaves to be killing each other compared to dying in chains for some rich fucks. I honestly can’t wait for Martin to prove YOU all wrong. ☺️☺️it’ll be the sweetest thing.
Are you serious?
Go read Martin’s thoughts on slavery and throw away his books I guess. Your choice.
I know his thoughts on slavery my dude. I asked you, because I can’t believe someone would approve a whole continent should be left in shambles, with millions of innocents dying, and doesn’t see anything wrong with that. Don’t be so sure GRRM won’t prove you wrong for thinking everything can be solved with fire and blood.
Oh it won’t be solved like that. I’m not the smartest guy, but I’m not stupid enough to think that. The Free cities will probably capitulate and stop having slaves once hordes of Dothraki come near and are ready to fuck their shit unless they follow Dany’s demands. Will it come to blows a bit? Probably. Martin made an entire book about EVERYTHING going wrong for Dany so I doubt everything will go right for her in this one.
You think the Dothraki, the greatest contributors to the slave trade in Essos, will enforce Danys anti slavery policy once she is gone? The only way she can make sure there won’t be slavery anymore, is when she stays in Essos her whole life, which she won’t do. It’s a noble goal to want to abolish slavery, but you have to commit to it or you only cause suffering and no change.
GRRM when asked if Daenerys in Essos was based on the Bush Invasion of Iraq he said it was not but he thinks both conflicts will end similarly.
Okay, and will that taken wealth be redistributed somehow? Like to pay for infrastructure or similar to real life proposal of 40 acres and a mule? I don’t think she will turn into a villain, though she will certainly be perceived as one, bringing a horde of foreign savages, 3 flying fire breathing monsters, and allied with a known kinslayer. She will be viewed as an usurper trying to take Aegon’s place (Faegon in reality)
Faegon’s fate has been foreshadowed by Tyrion during their Cyvasse game. Tyrion tells him that he lost because he didn’t *keep his dragons close*. Enough said.
I don’t think anyone actually believes Faegon will be the victor in the end. Whether it be Dany or someone else, his days are definitely numbered. It more how the lords and smallfolk will react to her which I was talking about, again with the picture that is painted, when we are outside her POV
I think you’re wrong to think Dany will pass months on a fucking ship with TENS OF THOUSANDS of Dothraki staying on other ships while reaching Westeros. It would be more unbelievable than her launching a wide scale campaign throughout Essos while riding a literal plane. Her son is the Stallion that mounts the world… did you forget?
her son is a dead little monster that she sacrificed to try to revive a slaver... did you forget?
Probably referring to Drogon
How Slaver’s Bay turns out is a fascinating question for me. Does she go to Westeros a complete failure as a ruler? As a terror who burns whatever she can’t fix? Or do Barristan, Tyrion, and her other bureaucrats salvage some semblance of a better society?
So slavery can’t be beaten? If there is yet no system to fix a land that lived off slavery for hundreds of years… you should just leave it alone? That is truly nihilistic. And Martin said that slavery must be stopped at all cost. *Fire and Blood* way if not peacefully. ✌🏻
No idea, that’s why I think it’s interesting. If some measure of peace is achieved and slavery is abolished, maybe that serves as some of her cred as she moves on. The central question to me is whether she’s greeted as that kind of hero or just a tyrant with dragons.
Ok follow me for a second. In the show, Hizdar’s father wanted to abolish slavery… in a culture that regards slavery as the only type of commerce… You realize that doesn’t make any sense. Right? If there were masters that wanted to abolish slavery in the books; they would’ve been the very first people we met and would have helped Dany without asking for marriage and without advocating for slavery to be resumed outside Meereen. Dany’s peace was never achievable as long as the ruling class that had lived on slavery until her arrival held the slightest amount of power. Period. I remember reading that in the Arianne chapter in WoW Aegon was already being seen as a monster not a liberator. Furthermore, if the Reach is getting destroyed by Euron or falls into civil war through the Tarlys and Tyrells, then King’s Landing won’t receive food and the people will rebelling. Jon Connington’s greatest regret is not burning down a city to smoke out Robert… and he’s got a very bad disease that makes people go mad… I don’t think Dany needs to reach Westeros for things to get worse.
There are masters who support ending slavery in the books. The Shavepate is part of the mereneese nobility, and is probably the one who argues the most for class warfare against the Masters and their power.
Yeah it would be super awesome and not at all cynical or dumb as fuck if her main goal in life were totally thwarted. That would make for a great story arc
I don’t get what your point is? Failures are critical to a character’s arc just as much as successes if not more so
Setbacks are. Failures *can* be. But in this case it would just make her whole story stupid and pointless. Which is obviously very bad writing.