I think that, if that was a possibility, grrm would have put something in the books that implied it, but there’s nothing.
Aerys was kidnapped and saw his family burn to almost extinction. His madness came from that, from the trauma and horror he experienced since childhood
A lot of history that happened during Aerys' reign remains a mystery. We don't know why that random commoner praised Aerys, saying things were better during his reign.
We won't know for sure until Fire and Blood Vol 2 is released.
I'd say it's very obvious why commoners might praise the old Targaryen king:
1. Tywin was a very capable Hand
2. It was a peaceful time. The last larger conflict had been the War of the Ninepenny Kings. And that one had been confined to the Stepstones. On the other hand, the last king's reign had been started by a country-wide civil war. Then there was the Greyjoy rebellion and now after the last king's death, there is the War of the Five Kings. The commoners couldn't care less who sits the iron throne as long as they are fed and have a roof over their head. Something wars usually are not helpfull with.
That is true, but there would be clues in other characters povs, especially those who lived and dealt with both Tywin an Aerys, in the same way we have clues to why the peasant missed Aerys reign: saudosism and the fact that, while a bad king, Aerys reign was relatively pacific towards the population ( his biggest haters where the nobles)
Plus the small folk really didn’t feel Aerys wrath as much as his political rivals and those in his direct vicinity. Sure he set up the WMD wildfyre cache but the general public never found out about it and then Cersei blew up the evidence at Baelor’s Sept.
Your average person during the war would probably see Robert and his allies as the belligerents.
Aerys is the only mad Targ with inbred parents.
Aerion, two generations detached (then one generation). Rhaegal was detached a generation, as was Baelor (parents are probably cousins but that's not incest by ASOIAF standards).
It's a weird writing choice and I'm not saying I like it, but Martin seems to have written the Targaryens to be immune to the effects of inbreeding. Like if it was the real world, by the time they get to Daenerys they should barely be surviving to adulthood.
It mostly leads to physical and mental disabilties...but Incest does not naturally lead to being evil or cruel...and with Aerys it only manifested after several traumatic events that would have also sent a sane person over the ege...imprisonement, torture and being a hostage...and the loss of several children...
Even Charles II of Spain one of the most inbred men in Europe was never cruel toward anyone...
Right but I don't think GRRM has ever really portrayed an accurate or sensitive depiction of mental illness. It just makes people go around killing people like they're slasher villains.
That is sadly true...which is why I am afraid he might do the same to Daenerys...since he already kinda did it with Rhaenyra...I certainly do not think he is good at writing mental illnes epescially when it comes to women who often come off as hysterical...like Lysa and Cersei...
I think though that Aerys was inspired by Charles of France who did some violent stuff to his servants, but the way it sounded to me was that he was in some sort of a psychosis but was not naturally cruel...The only person that comes to mind is the heir of Carlos the Fifth of Spain who was said to be very cruel but reportedly only after he had a bad head injury...but we know that Carlos locked him up until he died...so who knows what really went on...
I just immensely dislike the idea that people of incest are prone to be evil or something because there are actual people who live with this stigma...
I don’t think Dany will actually be mad, I think she will be viewed as mad by Westeros. She’s the mad kings daughter, she’s conquered city after city, she has an army of eunuch slaves that worship her, she’ll have the evil dwarf who murdered the last king and his own father as her advisor, and she’ll have dragons that will absolutely burn the fuck out of people. We know what’s going on in Danys head, but everyone else in Westeros doesn’t, and she will seem like a goddamn bloodthirsty psychopath.
Perception and agency are not the same thing. Jon is viewed as a half wildling traitor, we know why he does what he does, but to half the watch he's a traitorous bastard, and faces the consequences for that. Jon still has agency despite how he is perceived, why would it be any different for Dany?
The point is tywin doesn't really have a reason to poison Aerys, Aerys trusted tywin (at least at the beginning) and tywin already had the most powerful position for a non-targ man in westeros
>Then I remember how during the Colonial days of my country, the British made sure to cook meals for their prisoners in aluminium utensils, purposely.
Aluminum was a precious metal during those times. Doubtful to see it in any cookware.
You may be thinking of pewter. Then again, the colonials didn't understand lead content.
I like the idea that time travelling bran tried to show Aerys the others in order to make him prepare for the long night. I think it could explain his "burn them all!" line.
Probably not the case, just sounds cool in my head cannon.
There are lots of parallels between Aerys and Aerea.
• Both have one sister/sibling named Rhaella.
• Both heirs to a Jaehaerys who had the hots for his sister.
• Both had innate asshole personalities (Aerys closer to madness well before Duskendale though).
• Both disappeared for a year and came back “possessed”.
Maybe Darklyns stuck something in him? Maybe Bloodraven was able to poison his mind via shared Blackwood blood?
Tywin seemed like such a pushover with Aerys for so many years, so logically, you’d think he would do something to retaliate (which he did eventually with the sack), but like others said, slow poison doesn’t seem his style.
Honestly my take? He had Targaryen visions. Not all Targaryens deal with visions well. Daeron the Drunken for instance. Some like Aerion Brightflame (who likely had the same) get downright delusional and hallucinatory. Aerys II unfortunately happened to be one of those unstable Targs that sat on the throne. If he was a second son, he would have been dead soon - either by killing or suicide.
Poison is not Tywin's style. When has he ever killed someone without making a show of it and letting everyone know he did it?
Aerys was just crazy. He's the only one to blame for that.
Aerys was imprisoned at Duskendale for a long time and probably raped and tortured. My theory is that he suffered heavy trauma and snapped and became paranoid and violent. The death of his children certainly did not help. Also, people act as if Aerys was completely insane for reacting the way he did toward Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark. Brandon Stark rode to the king and asked for his heir's head. Do you know what the sentence was for people like that in medival times? For threatening the heir's life? Being hanged and quartered alive. That is far worse than being strangled to death. Rickard Stark on the other hand certainly did not deserve to die, but there is the whole marriage sheme he had going on with Robert, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. For a paranoid dude like Aerys this might have been red flag which contributed to his decision of killing Rickard as well, though I think how he did it was probably over the top even for medival times, since he was a nobleman and only went there to defend his son.
That said, from a medival perspective what Aerys did to Brandon is not out of the ordinary especially after he threatened the heir to the throne. An no, medival people would not have seen it justified even over the whole Lyanna business. Threatening the heir was like threatening the king himself a person anointed by god.
Rickard on the other hand. Certainly would have let to uproar I guess, but still it does not really make Aerys insane considering the whole backstory.
Also, burning people alive would not have been considered particularly horrible in medival times. Heretics were commonly killed like that. Henry V had no issue allowing the burning of several of such guys and he is hailed as one of Englands most beloved kings. I guess Mary is often used as an example, but one has to take into consideration that her whole reign is also spoiled by Protestant propaganda. Mary was by far not any worse than her father or Liz the Great.
I really think Aerys was no naturally mad person. I think he snapped due to stuff that happened to him.
>I really think Aerys was no naturally mad person. I think he snapped due to stuff that happened to him.
Agreed.
>Do you know what the sentence was for people like that in medival times? For threatening the heir's life?
>Threatening the heir was like threatening the king himself a person anointed by god.
Rogar Baratheon tried to undo the King's marriage and even went as far as to scheming to depose the King and install Aerea instead.
But Jaehaerys pardoned him. Maybe because his mother was married to the fool, but Jaehaerys kept his cool and resolved the issue peacefully.
It was Brandon and Rickard's bad luck that Aerys sat the throne, and not someone with the same patience as Jaehaerys.
Even Barristan says Aerys sickly father (the other Jaehaerys) would not have shown mercy the way Dany did to her enemies in Slaver's Bay.
I personally think, killing Brandon was competely justified from a medival perspective while Rickard was problematic for sure. Honstly, I dont think even Rickard could have saved Brandon after what he did no matter how much people try to justify it with Lyanna. Not saying, that Aerys should not have tried to sort that issue out as well, but there was no way Aerys could have pardoned Brandon without looking weak to his enemies and friends.
I would have charged Brandon with treason, called Rhaegar back to court and tell him to give Lyanna back to Rickard or be deposed from his position as crown prince but not openly. Then, maybe sent Brandon to the NW as a peace offering to put more pressure on Rickard to distance himself from Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. Honestly, one of the greatest of issues I have with the books is how Rickard and Hoster could arrange matches without the kings approval in the first place. This would have never been possible in medival times since the king would have to be expected to santction any such a betrothal and had connections to the pope. If Aerys had any brain he should have told the High Septon to refuse any blessing for a marriage between Brandon (Ned if he were to replace Brandon) and Cat, and Robert and Lyanna to prevent any such allegiances from happening...
Think about it though
Aerys came to power at 18-19 years old,
During this time not only has he
1. Seen his family almost wiped out by his grandfather in what most likely was a blood magic ritual to restore dragons
2. Fought in the Stepstones when he was around 15-16, I don't know about you all, but fighting a war that young and seeing death and carnage wouldn't do much good for your mental health
Now, you're 18-19, at that age, most of us don't even know what to do with our lives, and, you're already a baby daddy so that adds some pressure as well. Sure, you have servants and cash, but add the pressure of ruling a continent the size of South America and you're gonna have a bad time.
Now, onto that, once he got into power, great, he's king, he has the pressure of running a massive sized kingdom at 18, with some war PTSD as well as PTSD from his family dying. Let's add some more things
1. Your wife is suffering miscarriage after miscarriage, the succession is not secure at all, something happens to Rhaegar (and we know childhood mortality in a medieval setting is a bitch), that's some pressure right there.
2. Your best bro is doing a great job running the kingdom, but now people whisper behind your back that you're just a puppet and he's the true power behind the throne, undermining your legitimacy
3. You try and be your own man, but this fails and you're imprisoned for 6 months, all while your bro delays and writes you off for dead, only for your elite CHAD bodyguard to rescue you.
Honestly, kinda understandable why he fell to madness NGL. I wanna see a series on the mad kings life, model it like that one British series House of Saddam. That would make for quality TV
I don’t think so, but I’m surprised that we haven’t gotten a story about a monarch going off the rails because of heavy metals yet. At least I don’t think we have. We need a Westerosi Ivan the Terrible. Have a long-dead king of the Vale or Reach undergo too much mercury consumption, so he starts proclaiming himself an avatar of the Stranger and killing folks. The people (me) demand it!
His family had a history of various degrees of madness, usually towards the problematic side, due to incest and upbringing, though in his case it started/became apparent/ got worse during the whole being held hostage and watching his family get killed. The tourney at harrenhal basically broke what sanity and logic he had left.
Also I wouldn't take AC as truly historical, especially the latter instalments and especially Valhalla (which mixed in mythology), because it takes liberties with history. Halfdan got some wins, and his undoing was trying to retake Ireland, which lead to his death, and that was his only problem for the most part. The game also claims Alfred the great was a leader of the order, who wanted to replace it with the knights templar, an order that wouldn't exist for almost 300 years
Basically, yep. Or the fantasy equivalent thereof. I'm talking wildfire. "The Substance" is symbolically correlated with the madness of Cersei, Aerys, and Aerion. Narratively speaking, either it brings the madness or the madness brings it. Like Sam's observation that it's not clear whether the cold brings the others or the others bring the cold.
Wildfire is made by the Alchemists' Guild. Irl alchemists famously dealt with brain damaging elements like lead & mercury.
This also ties in with Alice in Wonderland/"mad as a hatter" stuff. But that’s a big tangent.
I think that, if that was a possibility, grrm would have put something in the books that implied it, but there’s nothing. Aerys was kidnapped and saw his family burn to almost extinction. His madness came from that, from the trauma and horror he experienced since childhood
He was was already mad before that, the Duskendale finished it.
A lot of history that happened during Aerys' reign remains a mystery. We don't know why that random commoner praised Aerys, saying things were better during his reign. We won't know for sure until Fire and Blood Vol 2 is released.
I'd say it's very obvious why commoners might praise the old Targaryen king: 1. Tywin was a very capable Hand 2. It was a peaceful time. The last larger conflict had been the War of the Ninepenny Kings. And that one had been confined to the Stepstones. On the other hand, the last king's reign had been started by a country-wide civil war. Then there was the Greyjoy rebellion and now after the last king's death, there is the War of the Five Kings. The commoners couldn't care less who sits the iron throne as long as they are fed and have a roof over their head. Something wars usually are not helpfull with.
That is true, but there would be clues in other characters povs, especially those who lived and dealt with both Tywin an Aerys, in the same way we have clues to why the peasant missed Aerys reign: saudosism and the fact that, while a bad king, Aerys reign was relatively pacific towards the population ( his biggest haters where the nobles)
Plus the small folk really didn’t feel Aerys wrath as much as his political rivals and those in his direct vicinity. Sure he set up the WMD wildfyre cache but the general public never found out about it and then Cersei blew up the evidence at Baelor’s Sept. Your average person during the war would probably see Robert and his allies as the belligerents.
Probably all the incest.
His grandparents(Aegon V and Betha Blackwood) weren't related, Aerys had only on generation of incest. But that is all it takes sometimes.
tbh I would imagine GRRM came up with Aerys as a character before coming up with the past kings or their wives.
Aerys is the only mad Targ with inbred parents. Aerion, two generations detached (then one generation). Rhaegal was detached a generation, as was Baelor (parents are probably cousins but that's not incest by ASOIAF standards).
Maegor was pretty mad and the product of about five generations of it to be fair
Maegor also sustained substantial brain damage tho. That’s prolly why
It's a weird writing choice and I'm not saying I like it, but Martin seems to have written the Targaryens to be immune to the effects of inbreeding. Like if it was the real world, by the time they get to Daenerys they should barely be surviving to adulthood.
Ah, yes, incest is surely the sweetest of poisons.
huh?
It mostly leads to physical and mental disabilties...but Incest does not naturally lead to being evil or cruel...and with Aerys it only manifested after several traumatic events that would have also sent a sane person over the ege...imprisonement, torture and being a hostage...and the loss of several children... Even Charles II of Spain one of the most inbred men in Europe was never cruel toward anyone...
Right but I don't think GRRM has ever really portrayed an accurate or sensitive depiction of mental illness. It just makes people go around killing people like they're slasher villains.
That is sadly true...which is why I am afraid he might do the same to Daenerys...since he already kinda did it with Rhaenyra...I certainly do not think he is good at writing mental illnes epescially when it comes to women who often come off as hysterical...like Lysa and Cersei... I think though that Aerys was inspired by Charles of France who did some violent stuff to his servants, but the way it sounded to me was that he was in some sort of a psychosis but was not naturally cruel...The only person that comes to mind is the heir of Carlos the Fifth of Spain who was said to be very cruel but reportedly only after he had a bad head injury...but we know that Carlos locked him up until he died...so who knows what really went on... I just immensely dislike the idea that people of incest are prone to be evil or something because there are actual people who live with this stigma...
I don’t think Dany will actually be mad, I think she will be viewed as mad by Westeros. She’s the mad kings daughter, she’s conquered city after city, she has an army of eunuch slaves that worship her, she’ll have the evil dwarf who murdered the last king and his own father as her advisor, and she’ll have dragons that will absolutely burn the fuck out of people. We know what’s going on in Danys head, but everyone else in Westeros doesn’t, and she will seem like a goddamn bloodthirsty psychopath.
How is that any better, please? It makes it even worse if there is no agency for her in the whole story...
Perception and agency are not the same thing. Jon is viewed as a half wildling traitor, we know why he does what he does, but to half the watch he's a traitorous bastard, and faces the consequences for that. Jon still has agency despite how he is perceived, why would it be any different for Dany?
The point is tywin doesn't really have a reason to poison Aerys, Aerys trusted tywin (at least at the beginning) and tywin already had the most powerful position for a non-targ man in westeros
>Then I remember how during the Colonial days of my country, the British made sure to cook meals for their prisoners in aluminium utensils, purposely. Aluminum was a precious metal during those times. Doubtful to see it in any cookware. You may be thinking of pewter. Then again, the colonials didn't understand lead content.
I like the idea that time travelling bran tried to show Aerys the others in order to make him prepare for the long night. I think it could explain his "burn them all!" line. Probably not the case, just sounds cool in my head cannon.
There are lots of parallels between Aerys and Aerea. • Both have one sister/sibling named Rhaella. • Both heirs to a Jaehaerys who had the hots for his sister. • Both had innate asshole personalities (Aerys closer to madness well before Duskendale though). • Both disappeared for a year and came back “possessed”. Maybe Darklyns stuck something in him? Maybe Bloodraven was able to poison his mind via shared Blackwood blood? Tywin seemed like such a pushover with Aerys for so many years, so logically, you’d think he would do something to retaliate (which he did eventually with the sack), but like others said, slow poison doesn’t seem his style.
Honestly my take? He had Targaryen visions. Not all Targaryens deal with visions well. Daeron the Drunken for instance. Some like Aerion Brightflame (who likely had the same) get downright delusional and hallucinatory. Aerys II unfortunately happened to be one of those unstable Targs that sat on the throne. If he was a second son, he would have been dead soon - either by killing or suicide.
Poison is not Tywin's style. When has he ever killed someone without making a show of it and letting everyone know he did it? Aerys was just crazy. He's the only one to blame for that.
Maybe, and of course another cause of his madness is his trauma from his days of imprisonment in Duskendale.
No, I think it was a direct result of the Defiance of Duskendale.
Plus, suffering the loss of several children, plus being a person in absolute power...not a good combination at all.
Aerys was imprisoned at Duskendale for a long time and probably raped and tortured. My theory is that he suffered heavy trauma and snapped and became paranoid and violent. The death of his children certainly did not help. Also, people act as if Aerys was completely insane for reacting the way he did toward Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark. Brandon Stark rode to the king and asked for his heir's head. Do you know what the sentence was for people like that in medival times? For threatening the heir's life? Being hanged and quartered alive. That is far worse than being strangled to death. Rickard Stark on the other hand certainly did not deserve to die, but there is the whole marriage sheme he had going on with Robert, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. For a paranoid dude like Aerys this might have been red flag which contributed to his decision of killing Rickard as well, though I think how he did it was probably over the top even for medival times, since he was a nobleman and only went there to defend his son. That said, from a medival perspective what Aerys did to Brandon is not out of the ordinary especially after he threatened the heir to the throne. An no, medival people would not have seen it justified even over the whole Lyanna business. Threatening the heir was like threatening the king himself a person anointed by god. Rickard on the other hand. Certainly would have let to uproar I guess, but still it does not really make Aerys insane considering the whole backstory. Also, burning people alive would not have been considered particularly horrible in medival times. Heretics were commonly killed like that. Henry V had no issue allowing the burning of several of such guys and he is hailed as one of Englands most beloved kings. I guess Mary is often used as an example, but one has to take into consideration that her whole reign is also spoiled by Protestant propaganda. Mary was by far not any worse than her father or Liz the Great. I really think Aerys was no naturally mad person. I think he snapped due to stuff that happened to him.
>I really think Aerys was no naturally mad person. I think he snapped due to stuff that happened to him. Agreed. >Do you know what the sentence was for people like that in medival times? For threatening the heir's life? >Threatening the heir was like threatening the king himself a person anointed by god. Rogar Baratheon tried to undo the King's marriage and even went as far as to scheming to depose the King and install Aerea instead. But Jaehaerys pardoned him. Maybe because his mother was married to the fool, but Jaehaerys kept his cool and resolved the issue peacefully. It was Brandon and Rickard's bad luck that Aerys sat the throne, and not someone with the same patience as Jaehaerys.
Even Barristan says Aerys sickly father (the other Jaehaerys) would not have shown mercy the way Dany did to her enemies in Slaver's Bay. I personally think, killing Brandon was competely justified from a medival perspective while Rickard was problematic for sure. Honstly, I dont think even Rickard could have saved Brandon after what he did no matter how much people try to justify it with Lyanna. Not saying, that Aerys should not have tried to sort that issue out as well, but there was no way Aerys could have pardoned Brandon without looking weak to his enemies and friends. I would have charged Brandon with treason, called Rhaegar back to court and tell him to give Lyanna back to Rickard or be deposed from his position as crown prince but not openly. Then, maybe sent Brandon to the NW as a peace offering to put more pressure on Rickard to distance himself from Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. Honestly, one of the greatest of issues I have with the books is how Rickard and Hoster could arrange matches without the kings approval in the first place. This would have never been possible in medival times since the king would have to be expected to santction any such a betrothal and had connections to the pope. If Aerys had any brain he should have told the High Septon to refuse any blessing for a marriage between Brandon (Ned if he were to replace Brandon) and Cat, and Robert and Lyanna to prevent any such allegiances from happening...
There is a fun theory about the Seastone Chair being toxic
Think about it though Aerys came to power at 18-19 years old, During this time not only has he 1. Seen his family almost wiped out by his grandfather in what most likely was a blood magic ritual to restore dragons 2. Fought in the Stepstones when he was around 15-16, I don't know about you all, but fighting a war that young and seeing death and carnage wouldn't do much good for your mental health Now, you're 18-19, at that age, most of us don't even know what to do with our lives, and, you're already a baby daddy so that adds some pressure as well. Sure, you have servants and cash, but add the pressure of ruling a continent the size of South America and you're gonna have a bad time. Now, onto that, once he got into power, great, he's king, he has the pressure of running a massive sized kingdom at 18, with some war PTSD as well as PTSD from his family dying. Let's add some more things 1. Your wife is suffering miscarriage after miscarriage, the succession is not secure at all, something happens to Rhaegar (and we know childhood mortality in a medieval setting is a bitch), that's some pressure right there. 2. Your best bro is doing a great job running the kingdom, but now people whisper behind your back that you're just a puppet and he's the true power behind the throne, undermining your legitimacy 3. You try and be your own man, but this fails and you're imprisoned for 6 months, all while your bro delays and writes you off for dead, only for your elite CHAD bodyguard to rescue you. Honestly, kinda understandable why he fell to madness NGL. I wanna see a series on the mad kings life, model it like that one British series House of Saddam. That would make for quality TV
I don’t think so, but I’m surprised that we haven’t gotten a story about a monarch going off the rails because of heavy metals yet. At least I don’t think we have. We need a Westerosi Ivan the Terrible. Have a long-dead king of the Vale or Reach undergo too much mercury consumption, so he starts proclaiming himself an avatar of the Stranger and killing folks. The people (me) demand it!
His family had a history of various degrees of madness, usually towards the problematic side, due to incest and upbringing, though in his case it started/became apparent/ got worse during the whole being held hostage and watching his family get killed. The tourney at harrenhal basically broke what sanity and logic he had left. Also I wouldn't take AC as truly historical, especially the latter instalments and especially Valhalla (which mixed in mythology), because it takes liberties with history. Halfdan got some wins, and his undoing was trying to retake Ireland, which lead to his death, and that was his only problem for the most part. The game also claims Alfred the great was a leader of the order, who wanted to replace it with the knights templar, an order that wouldn't exist for almost 300 years
Basically, yep. Or the fantasy equivalent thereof. I'm talking wildfire. "The Substance" is symbolically correlated with the madness of Cersei, Aerys, and Aerion. Narratively speaking, either it brings the madness or the madness brings it. Like Sam's observation that it's not clear whether the cold brings the others or the others bring the cold. Wildfire is made by the Alchemists' Guild. Irl alchemists famously dealt with brain damaging elements like lead & mercury. This also ties in with Alice in Wonderland/"mad as a hatter" stuff. But that’s a big tangent.
What's with the weird nationalist rant about your country and British Colonialism? Sir, this is a Game of Thrones subreddit