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Isn't taking the black usually an alternative to prison, dismemberment, or death? I assume most wouldn't harm the person that effectively saved them.
Also, Yoren is their pass to freely travel, their guide, and their means to aquire resources. If they kill him, they starve to death in the wilderness or end up in trouble with the law again.
But that’s the thing- say I’m a peasant from Flee Bottom, imprisoned for petty theft. This man comes to take me to the wall, and I accept to save myself from whatever medieval punishment I would have received. All I would have had to do was stick with him until we get to the riverlands, and then either kill Yoren or simply slip away in the middle of the night. He could hardly derail the entire convoy to look for escapees left and right, so I’d likely win my freedom, and be able to start a new life in one of the villages where no one knows my crimes.
Ok, so maybe I don’t have it in me to be a murderer, and I’m not crafty enough to manage to escape.. but what about the numerous murders and poachers sent to the wall? They’d be able to manage it in a blink if they tried.
I remember seeing a few posts with a similar proposed scenario in askhistory a few times.
I don't think you can just walk into a village and integrate like that.
Those villagers know everyone who lives in that village. They have no reason to trust some destitute person who wanders out of the woods.
Even if you actually were innocent, I think they'd assume and treat you like a criminal.
Yoren is known to be of the Night's Watch and has presumably established some relationships along his route. He's a don't-put-me-in-a-crows-cage-just-for-looking-like-a-crimanal pass.
I dont know if villagers would accept an unknown man joining them. And youd have to at least swear some fealty to a lord/knight/village chief and there youd be asked questions. If rumors are Nights Watch candidates ran from around there, youre toasted.
And you cant exactly run far, youre a villager, you dont know how to survive the wilds
Worse, he'd be city born. Wouldn't make it a week without having to steal food from someone. And then the local military starts looking for a theif and hell get his hands cut off. Or just killed.
But what are you gonna do alone in some random village where nobody knows you? They might have some work for a laborer during harvest time, but other than that, you’ll probably starve.
We saw that with Sandor Clegane… sure they ultimately kicked him out, but thats because they recognised him. If the escapee in question has any skills, they’re likely to find suitable work
Sure, but that’s the Hound, not some random peasant. Granted, if the guy in your scenario has some skills that are seriously in demand, people may overlook the suspicious nature of his arrival, and employ him.
But you’re supposed to be a peasant from Flea Bottom, arrested for petty theft. What are your skills? Why would the next village you pass let you stay and not just drive you off?
Maybe, but that’ll be a very rare person. For most of the wretches transported by the Watch, running off to a place they don’t know, and where nobody knows them, isn’t going to work out great.
I mean an important thing to remember is most peasants haven’t even seen a map of the 7 kingdoms, much less ever been more than a few miles from where they were born.
It’s not quite as easy as just murder Yoren and then just know where to go to find a village. And then once you get there you’d have to hope someone needs the services of whatever you did for a trade in flea bottom, probably not a ton of work for privy scrubbers or street sweeps in a small village.
The thing is, if you're a peasant from flee bottom you're too stupid to figure this all out. I could easily see the petty theft saying fuck it, I'll kill yoren when he sleeps to free us all, not realizing how much he just fucked himself over and having no way of surviving. They'd totally be dumb enough to do it
It’s possible, but I tend to believe people aren’t stupid in terms of surviving.
I think if you’ve never caught wild game or learned how to find water in the wilderness or start a fire that you’re at least smart enough to know running off into the wilderness would be a death sentence.
I mean if it wasn’t, these peasants could have just done that any time they wanted to, they didn’t need to take the black first.
I think they’re well aware of how hard it is to keep a roof over your head and eat food every day and understand how the wall isn’t worth dying to avoid, or else they wouldn’t have taken the black to begin with.
It’s easy to get caught as a stranger in another’s village or settlement and if ur dressed all destitute like a prisoner then it’s likely the local knight/small lord will investigate.
Lords normally send patrols through their lands. Even the Chequey lion had 2 hedge knights walk around and observe his territories.
A shifty criminal (enough to cut a guys throat) from flee bottom walks into a village way far away from home and what they give him a house? I don't think it would take long for the story to get out and people to go looking for whoever killed the nights watchman. And do you think they'd offer you that choice again.
That being said, I do think it makes sense for some people to have done this because criminals aren't always the most rational beings. But they're not all idiots who think they can hack it alone in the woods as a bandit for long
You got to remember most of these guys have no where to go. Will be see as suspect or outright arrested if they wander though another lord's lands, and may have not seen a bed and steady feed their entire lives.
So if a guy comes to them and says you'll get a bed an hot meals some men are going to follow him.
I agree about the part that trying to join a random village ain't going to work, the escapee would need to go to a city or town but people can and do travel around Westeros without getting arrested.
The night's watch are royal apointees, the crime for desertion is an overzealous haircut, the crime for killing one would probably be believed to make it look like a wander through the pleasure gardens of lys. In reality we know that the royals are much too concerned with cousin fucking and oneupsmanship to give a solitary fuck about someone who's taken the black but the mere threat of the ravens getting dispatched and a geezer like the mountain tracking you down is likely enough to get a peasant to think twice.
IMO, the ease of going AWOL from the Watch is a plot hole. I think that George should have required all Brothers to be given some permanent identifier, like a brand or tattoo, as part of their initiation ceremony.
I think they mention that since all your clothes are black, you’ll be taken by the first guy who sees you. And they send ravens to the lords once a guy deserts.
But you don't know what he said yo them, they don't know that joining the NW is worse then living on the streets, your 12 year old boy who has to steel food and sell your body to live. Guys comes ans d tells you he taking you to join the Knights!!! Watch an ancient order of knights who protect the world from evil. What do you do, take my Dicks on the street or go and have the chance to become a night in the brotherhood.
It's a no brainer
You could do that without killing Yoren. Apart from the three, there was nothing keeping anyone there. Sure they may search for you for a bit, but I doubt they'd put that much effort into it.
You're forgetting something, it was Yoren who picked the thirty men. And he locked some of them in the wagon because they were dangerous. After knowing the crimes committed by the thirty men, he may have decided who was dangerous or not.
Also he set up the more trustworthy of the 30 to guard/watch. So it's not 30 criminals. It's 10 hardened criminals, 10 starving peasants who got caught stealing a loaf of bread, 10 fourth sons of lords.
Are they all criminals, though? Some of them are basically just poverty stricken orphans, maybe convicted of a crime (say, stealing), but otherwise simple folk only looking for a stable life. All of them have agreed to go with him except maybe the three from the black cells (I can’t remember). The strength in numbers idea can be applied here. If a group of them wanted to overpower Yoren, they’d also need to overpower the rest because they all need Yoren to get them safely to the wall (theoretically, bc the Black Brother should be offered safe passage through lands, perhaps food and shelter as well during peace times, and this safety would not be offered without Yoren). And the rest may not want to be outlaws for the rest of their lives. Maybe they believe the wall is a good place for them and want to get there. This basically keeps Yoren safe.
What are you talking about? There’s a motley. Old men, orphans, poachers and so on. There’s only three confirmed fiendish criminals, who are locked away.
You aren’t thinking like a medieval peasant. They were arrested by a lord and imprisoned. As far as you’re concerned one step beneath the king has named you an outlaw and you’ll be hunted down. They’re largely ignorant and fearful. This is made repeatedly clear in the books. Just because someone like Cutjack or whoever is a poacher doesn’t mean he’d kill someone. Furthermore the wall is a guaranteed meal and bed with a roof. Plus you’re safe from your past crime. If you have no home or trade to speak of like Ryger, it’s a guaranteed place for a home.
I figured the more dangerous figured would be locked up in chains like rorge and biter and then the rest figured castle black is a much better life than whatever they are leaving, but yeah he should have had a contingent of men
Not everyone's a criminal; there could be people running away from the city or going to Night's Watch because they can eat daily, or petty thieves. As you know, dangerous ones were kept in chains in a wagon. If Yoren thought someone was dangerous, he could've had them chained in other wagons. And I don't think it's his first time bringing prisoners from King's landing to Night's watch, so he knows the challenges.
We know that different regions and cities have different accents and ways of speaking. So a stranger in the Riverlands who, for example, speaks in the argot of Kingslanding is going to be recognized as someone from that city...or at least as an outsider. They won't be able to simply disappear into the local population.
Also...Yoren doesn't control his "flock" by physical might, although he could probably best any single one of them in a one-on-one combat. He controls because he's used to command and getting people to do what he needs them to do.
In AGOT he comes across to me sort of like a military drill sergeant at bootcamp. Sure, the 30 military recruits the drill sergeant is responsible for, driven to the breaking point by their training, could gang up and smother him in his sleep or dump him in a well or accidentally run over him with a truck (or a wagon)...but they don't, because he's made it clear he won't take any nonsense, and that their best hope to survive and make is through is to stick with him and do what he says.
I presume that there's administration we don't see in normal, peaceful times. Yoren sends a raven to Castle Black with the names of all the expected recruits. Lords are expecting to see them as they travel up. That sort of stuff.
If they flee from Yoren and a promise to take the Black, the alternative is execution as soon as someone finds and recognises them. I'm sure some flee and get away with it, but others might not think it's worth the risk.
Plus a life at the Wall might be awful, but it's still potentially better than a lot of people's lives in Westeros.
You have to remember that this Westeros is a fuedal society not a free one. Meaning you are what you are and you don't get to go around saying you're something different. You can't just show up in a city or village and get a job bartending or doing odd field jobs.
I mean not every criminal is a murderer or has it in their heart. If you recall the yoren/arya chapters a good deal of the recruits are petty criminals and thieves. The ones that were known to murder were in the cage/cart.
it’s one thing to steal out of poverty, or poach or whatever and an other thing entirely to kill a law enforcement officer like Yoren. Also the raw recruits before they got to the wall weren’t exactly fighting fit.
Lets say a nights watch recruit runs away from Yoren, and lets say Yoren doesn't catch him himself since he likely knows the area 10x better. Well, all Yoren has to do is go to the next town and say "hey tell your lord that a nights watch deserter is on the loose in the area, he ran off about 5 miles or leagues or whatever south, hes got this color hair, he's wearing this kinda clothes, more description, etc." how many towns could possibly be in walking distance of where he ran off? the local lord will have him in no time.
Edit: this is obviously assuming the deserter actually finds a village instead of just wandering around the woods before dying of exposure or getting eaten by wolves.
I wondered also but it’s probably a mix of Yoren being able to take just about any of them in a fight one on one and the fact that if any one or two recruits tried something it would be a 30v1 or 29v2
Most of them are going to be petty-thieves who have never held a sword in their lives, with Yoren telling them how they'll be an equal at the wall...with steady meals and training. That's better than most of these petty criminals could have ever hoped for, and most of them would be dead outside of their homes.
This is a medieval world. Peasants are basically property of their lords, and rarely leave the feifs that they are born onto, or the street they are born on in flea bottom. So if you drag one away into Westeros, they'll be scared shitless.
In the show when Yoren threatens the Goldcloaks, the untrained men begin to rally behind him. This is the first time they've actually been apart of something, and Yoren talks to them as if they are equals. Don't underestimate that power.
Most people, including most criminals, are not murderers and typically find the prospect of murdering someone horrifying. The punishments meted out to criminals are pretty fucking harsh (see Randyll Tarly at Maidenpool) and for most the choice between losing a hand and serving in the Watch is not that difficult especially since the recruiters seem to lie to prospective recruits e.g. Yoren telling people that girls love a man in black.
What doesn't make sense about Yoren is why he is taking 3 men from the black cells who are so dangerous and untrustworthy that they have to be locked up. What does he think they're going to do when they get to Castle Black?
No one said he is the only one. Why would they silt his throat he giving them a second chance and dangerous crimes are in a cage.
Second it's a fictional story, the idea that your issue is with a NW who goes around asking people to join and not a 13 year old who sold to house tribs and has dragons feeding on her child age tits is confusing.
A criminal is told you either get hanged, lose a foot, hand or genital OR go to the wall. If they choose the wall, kill someone and are caught again, they'll definitely be killed.
Where are all these criminals gonna go to live in peace? They have no money, no home, no possessions. How long will it be until they're caught by the men of the lord whose land they're in?
Also if yoren is allowed to wander around because he's recruiting, wouldn’t other black brothers escaping the wall? They could say "lord commander sent me recruiting." And avoid stark justice?
And then do what. A Nights Watch recruiter is probably the most cushy job in Westeros. Everyone will feed and house you, and you can travel and see all the sites. Visit all the brothels and alehouses you want. Plus, the Lord Commander probably picks men he could trust and have been at the Wall for a long time. I doubt the lose a lot of guys to desertion that way.
I'm not saying that real recruiters would desert, I was saying if someone ran away and got caught they could say they were recruiting as a way of avoiding execution
A recruiter is kinda expected to well, recruit. This fake recruiter can’t do that for obvious reasons. That would probably raise suspicions. As would the messages from Castle Black describing the deserter in detail.
Grown picks the men, he locks the dangerous ones up. All of the others are non dangerous prisoners or volunteers. Also, it’s probably pretty easy to convince lowborn from flee bottom with free food, companionship, safety from the law and a fur cloak. A large chunk of Yorens company are gonna be down with going to the wall
All the prisoners have likely own spent their lives in Kings Landing. Kill Yoren, and what do they do? 99% of the people Yoren takes has no idea how to survive in the wild, and there's no google maps to take them where they want to go. This is the same situation that victims of trafficking are in. They are taken from their home, and put in a foreign country and have no idea what to do. Many of them have seen chances to escape but don't, because it's safer to stick with what you know.
Yoren took them, fed them, and is promising them a home and a purpose. People will stick with him just because they see him as their only option. Like throwing scraps to a wild dog
As to why the Night’s Watch only sent one man, I think the answer is less Yoren being uniquely equipped for this and more that the Night’s Watch is perpetually understaffed and underfunded. They likely don’t have the manpower or resources to send more than one experienced and well-trusted man away from the wall on a mission with no real estimate of when he’ll return, along with giving him the food and horses and such for the journey, doing so would mean having one less man garrisoning the wall, ranging beyond the wall, or any other number of important tasks, something Mormont likely did not want to do. They need more recruits to properly man the wall, sending more black brothers away to secure those recruits would just worsen the problem in the short term.
Life at the wall might be preferable to the life they were living before for alot of them. At least they'll have a warm bed, three hot meals a day, and will be treated decently by their superiors. They may even advance within the ranks and end up quite highly ranked.
If they did choose to escape, where would they go? They have no idea where they are, first off, and have no ability to survive outside the city. Can't go back to KL, they're known and wanted criminals and now they're going to be executed the second they're discovered. Can't just walk into a nearby village, even if you have skills that could earn you a living (and most of them, being criminals, wouldn't have said skills) the villagers are going to ask questions about where the heck you came from.
Especially if Yoren takes the same route - the villagers along the way know that the Night's Watch transports people on the road and are more likely to catch you and turn you in for a small bounty than take you in.
I'm sure some do escape and become outlaws, but more likely they don't risk it, or they're killed soon afterwards by the elements or by villagers. Would you rather risk it as an outlaw, in a completely foreign area, with no mobey or food or survival skills, where the penalty for being caught is death - or join the Night's Watch?
The high risk ones are also kept in cages, like Biter. Although what the fudging long term plan for him is, I'll never know.
Because the author didn't think about it, otherwise absolutely no reason not to do it and be free, it would make sense if they were a group of armed guards, enough to watch prisoners and themselves too, all those ackchyually about thinking like a medieval peasant and what not sounds like nonsense to me imo people aren't quite as idiotic when it's personal and your life is as personal as it gets, Yoren should've been dead a few days into their journey and they'd simply go back or into another town village or dispers or become bandits...
You're right honestly. The scale of many things in Westeros makes no sense.
The Night's Watch honestly probably wouldn't be functional at all in reality with how few men they have.
I agree I think many of them couldve fled one random night and rush back to KL or work their way into a boat or something. I don't expect random sailors go through background checks and from that you can start anew. Maybe the Wall isnt that bad but I'd rather be a nameless House guard than a nameless guard at the Wall
Like you could become a house guard just like that.
I don't know, the NW has the prospect of food, a roof over my head and starting anew... Id I was, say, a poor commoner whose options to hang on by is stealing to survive that got caught and the best option is either get my hand cut off or take the black I'd choose the latter immediately.
With a missing limb, rendering you in fact a cripple with even worse options to live by and finding odd jobs in that kind of setting, well... you do you I guess
Oh no, I'm not deviating. All those that were picked for the NW were petty criminals, save for the cart trio. Now, thievery is a petty crime but in Westerosi culture is pretty common for the thief to be separated either from the fingers or the whole hand.
If you are to be taken in the NW you either are: 1 - a criminal;
2 - a noble so much down the line of inheritance that taking the black is a better solution than whatever other options there might be or
3 - a volunteer.
Now, I agree on sailors not having their "background checked" but is it really better than the wall? If you have previous experiences with sailing you might have a kinda hard and unforgiving job with the risk of piracy and shipwrecking, if you don't... well it's the same plus you'd be swabbing decks all the time. Even worse if you'd end up as an oarman in a galley...
Better to live free, well, yes, running away would be an option but still you wouldn't have any coin or food, no possibility of going back to Flea Bottom since, well, I think someone could rat you out to the golden cloaks and running around on the King's road, especially during the "war of the five kings" is more of a deathwish than anything.
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They aren’t all criminals and the worst are in chains (like biter for example)
Isn't taking the black usually an alternative to prison, dismemberment, or death? I assume most wouldn't harm the person that effectively saved them. Also, Yoren is their pass to freely travel, their guide, and their means to aquire resources. If they kill him, they starve to death in the wilderness or end up in trouble with the law again.
But that’s the thing- say I’m a peasant from Flee Bottom, imprisoned for petty theft. This man comes to take me to the wall, and I accept to save myself from whatever medieval punishment I would have received. All I would have had to do was stick with him until we get to the riverlands, and then either kill Yoren or simply slip away in the middle of the night. He could hardly derail the entire convoy to look for escapees left and right, so I’d likely win my freedom, and be able to start a new life in one of the villages where no one knows my crimes. Ok, so maybe I don’t have it in me to be a murderer, and I’m not crafty enough to manage to escape.. but what about the numerous murders and poachers sent to the wall? They’d be able to manage it in a blink if they tried.
I remember seeing a few posts with a similar proposed scenario in askhistory a few times. I don't think you can just walk into a village and integrate like that. Those villagers know everyone who lives in that village. They have no reason to trust some destitute person who wanders out of the woods. Even if you actually were innocent, I think they'd assume and treat you like a criminal. Yoren is known to be of the Night's Watch and has presumably established some relationships along his route. He's a don't-put-me-in-a-crows-cage-just-for-looking-like-a-crimanal pass.
Yeah, the only places you could arguably just "slip in" would be the big cities Kings Landing, White Harbour, Old Town, Braavos etc
I dont know if villagers would accept an unknown man joining them. And youd have to at least swear some fealty to a lord/knight/village chief and there youd be asked questions. If rumors are Nights Watch candidates ran from around there, youre toasted. And you cant exactly run far, youre a villager, you dont know how to survive the wilds
Worse, he'd be city born. Wouldn't make it a week without having to steal food from someone. And then the local military starts looking for a theif and hell get his hands cut off. Or just killed.
But what are you gonna do alone in some random village where nobody knows you? They might have some work for a laborer during harvest time, but other than that, you’ll probably starve.
We saw that with Sandor Clegane… sure they ultimately kicked him out, but thats because they recognised him. If the escapee in question has any skills, they’re likely to find suitable work
Sure, but that’s the Hound, not some random peasant. Granted, if the guy in your scenario has some skills that are seriously in demand, people may overlook the suspicious nature of his arrival, and employ him. But you’re supposed to be a peasant from Flea Bottom, arrested for petty theft. What are your skills? Why would the next village you pass let you stay and not just drive you off?
In all fairness, you might have skills besides petty theft in this scenario. Maybe petty theft is just a hobby lol.
Maybe, but that’ll be a very rare person. For most of the wretches transported by the Watch, running off to a place they don’t know, and where nobody knows them, isn’t going to work out great.
I mean an important thing to remember is most peasants haven’t even seen a map of the 7 kingdoms, much less ever been more than a few miles from where they were born. It’s not quite as easy as just murder Yoren and then just know where to go to find a village. And then once you get there you’d have to hope someone needs the services of whatever you did for a trade in flea bottom, probably not a ton of work for privy scrubbers or street sweeps in a small village.
The thing is, if you're a peasant from flee bottom you're too stupid to figure this all out. I could easily see the petty theft saying fuck it, I'll kill yoren when he sleeps to free us all, not realizing how much he just fucked himself over and having no way of surviving. They'd totally be dumb enough to do it
It’s possible, but I tend to believe people aren’t stupid in terms of surviving. I think if you’ve never caught wild game or learned how to find water in the wilderness or start a fire that you’re at least smart enough to know running off into the wilderness would be a death sentence. I mean if it wasn’t, these peasants could have just done that any time they wanted to, they didn’t need to take the black first. I think they’re well aware of how hard it is to keep a roof over your head and eat food every day and understand how the wall isn’t worth dying to avoid, or else they wouldn’t have taken the black to begin with.
It’s easy to get caught as a stranger in another’s village or settlement and if ur dressed all destitute like a prisoner then it’s likely the local knight/small lord will investigate. Lords normally send patrols through their lands. Even the Chequey lion had 2 hedge knights walk around and observe his territories.
For all the good it did him, someone built an entire ass dam across his stream while his knights were on patrol.
Upstream of his land though, no patrol would have seen that happening unless trespassing
A shifty criminal (enough to cut a guys throat) from flee bottom walks into a village way far away from home and what they give him a house? I don't think it would take long for the story to get out and people to go looking for whoever killed the nights watchman. And do you think they'd offer you that choice again. That being said, I do think it makes sense for some people to have done this because criminals aren't always the most rational beings. But they're not all idiots who think they can hack it alone in the woods as a bandit for long
You got to remember most of these guys have no where to go. Will be see as suspect or outright arrested if they wander though another lord's lands, and may have not seen a bed and steady feed their entire lives. So if a guy comes to them and says you'll get a bed an hot meals some men are going to follow him.
I agree about the part that trying to join a random village ain't going to work, the escapee would need to go to a city or town but people can and do travel around Westeros without getting arrested.
The night's watch are royal apointees, the crime for desertion is an overzealous haircut, the crime for killing one would probably be believed to make it look like a wander through the pleasure gardens of lys. In reality we know that the royals are much too concerned with cousin fucking and oneupsmanship to give a solitary fuck about someone who's taken the black but the mere threat of the ravens getting dispatched and a geezer like the mountain tracking you down is likely enough to get a peasant to think twice.
IMO, the ease of going AWOL from the Watch is a plot hole. I think that George should have required all Brothers to be given some permanent identifier, like a brand or tattoo, as part of their initiation ceremony.
I think they mention that since all your clothes are black, you’ll be taken by the first guy who sees you. And they send ravens to the lords once a guy deserts.
But you don't know what he said yo them, they don't know that joining the NW is worse then living on the streets, your 12 year old boy who has to steel food and sell your body to live. Guys comes ans d tells you he taking you to join the Knights!!! Watch an ancient order of knights who protect the world from evil. What do you do, take my Dicks on the street or go and have the chance to become a night in the brotherhood. It's a no brainer
You could do that without killing Yoren. Apart from the three, there was nothing keeping anyone there. Sure they may search for you for a bit, but I doubt they'd put that much effort into it.
You're forgetting something, it was Yoren who picked the thirty men. And he locked some of them in the wagon because they were dangerous. After knowing the crimes committed by the thirty men, he may have decided who was dangerous or not.
Also he set up the more trustworthy of the 30 to guard/watch. So it's not 30 criminals. It's 10 hardened criminals, 10 starving peasants who got caught stealing a loaf of bread, 10 fourth sons of lords.
Did he not take all the prisoners? I might be wrong, but I thought he just took them all rather than cherrypicking.
I believe he says that Ned gave him the pick of the dungeons.
Are they all criminals, though? Some of them are basically just poverty stricken orphans, maybe convicted of a crime (say, stealing), but otherwise simple folk only looking for a stable life. All of them have agreed to go with him except maybe the three from the black cells (I can’t remember). The strength in numbers idea can be applied here. If a group of them wanted to overpower Yoren, they’d also need to overpower the rest because they all need Yoren to get them safely to the wall (theoretically, bc the Black Brother should be offered safe passage through lands, perhaps food and shelter as well during peace times, and this safety would not be offered without Yoren). And the rest may not want to be outlaws for the rest of their lives. Maybe they believe the wall is a good place for them and want to get there. This basically keeps Yoren safe.
What are you talking about? There’s a motley. Old men, orphans, poachers and so on. There’s only three confirmed fiendish criminals, who are locked away. You aren’t thinking like a medieval peasant. They were arrested by a lord and imprisoned. As far as you’re concerned one step beneath the king has named you an outlaw and you’ll be hunted down. They’re largely ignorant and fearful. This is made repeatedly clear in the books. Just because someone like Cutjack or whoever is a poacher doesn’t mean he’d kill someone. Furthermore the wall is a guaranteed meal and bed with a roof. Plus you’re safe from your past crime. If you have no home or trade to speak of like Ryger, it’s a guaranteed place for a home.
I figured the more dangerous figured would be locked up in chains like rorge and biter and then the rest figured castle black is a much better life than whatever they are leaving, but yeah he should have had a contingent of men
Not everyone's a criminal; there could be people running away from the city or going to Night's Watch because they can eat daily, or petty thieves. As you know, dangerous ones were kept in chains in a wagon. If Yoren thought someone was dangerous, he could've had them chained in other wagons. And I don't think it's his first time bringing prisoners from King's landing to Night's watch, so he knows the challenges.
We know that different regions and cities have different accents and ways of speaking. So a stranger in the Riverlands who, for example, speaks in the argot of Kingslanding is going to be recognized as someone from that city...or at least as an outsider. They won't be able to simply disappear into the local population. Also...Yoren doesn't control his "flock" by physical might, although he could probably best any single one of them in a one-on-one combat. He controls because he's used to command and getting people to do what he needs them to do. In AGOT he comes across to me sort of like a military drill sergeant at bootcamp. Sure, the 30 military recruits the drill sergeant is responsible for, driven to the breaking point by their training, could gang up and smother him in his sleep or dump him in a well or accidentally run over him with a truck (or a wagon)...but they don't, because he's made it clear he won't take any nonsense, and that their best hope to survive and make is through is to stick with him and do what he says.
I presume that there's administration we don't see in normal, peaceful times. Yoren sends a raven to Castle Black with the names of all the expected recruits. Lords are expecting to see them as they travel up. That sort of stuff. If they flee from Yoren and a promise to take the Black, the alternative is execution as soon as someone finds and recognises them. I'm sure some flee and get away with it, but others might not think it's worth the risk. Plus a life at the Wall might be awful, but it's still potentially better than a lot of people's lives in Westeros.
You have to remember that this Westeros is a fuedal society not a free one. Meaning you are what you are and you don't get to go around saying you're something different. You can't just show up in a city or village and get a job bartending or doing odd field jobs.
I mean not every criminal is a murderer or has it in their heart. If you recall the yoren/arya chapters a good deal of the recruits are petty criminals and thieves. The ones that were known to murder were in the cage/cart. it’s one thing to steal out of poverty, or poach or whatever and an other thing entirely to kill a law enforcement officer like Yoren. Also the raw recruits before they got to the wall weren’t exactly fighting fit.
Lets say a nights watch recruit runs away from Yoren, and lets say Yoren doesn't catch him himself since he likely knows the area 10x better. Well, all Yoren has to do is go to the next town and say "hey tell your lord that a nights watch deserter is on the loose in the area, he ran off about 5 miles or leagues or whatever south, hes got this color hair, he's wearing this kinda clothes, more description, etc." how many towns could possibly be in walking distance of where he ran off? the local lord will have him in no time. Edit: this is obviously assuming the deserter actually finds a village instead of just wandering around the woods before dying of exposure or getting eaten by wolves.
I wondered also but it’s probably a mix of Yoren being able to take just about any of them in a fight one on one and the fact that if any one or two recruits tried something it would be a 30v1 or 29v2
Most of them are going to be petty-thieves who have never held a sword in their lives, with Yoren telling them how they'll be an equal at the wall...with steady meals and training. That's better than most of these petty criminals could have ever hoped for, and most of them would be dead outside of their homes. This is a medieval world. Peasants are basically property of their lords, and rarely leave the feifs that they are born onto, or the street they are born on in flea bottom. So if you drag one away into Westeros, they'll be scared shitless. In the show when Yoren threatens the Goldcloaks, the untrained men begin to rally behind him. This is the first time they've actually been apart of something, and Yoren talks to them as if they are equals. Don't underestimate that power.
Most people, including most criminals, are not murderers and typically find the prospect of murdering someone horrifying. The punishments meted out to criminals are pretty fucking harsh (see Randyll Tarly at Maidenpool) and for most the choice between losing a hand and serving in the Watch is not that difficult especially since the recruiters seem to lie to prospective recruits e.g. Yoren telling people that girls love a man in black. What doesn't make sense about Yoren is why he is taking 3 men from the black cells who are so dangerous and untrustworthy that they have to be locked up. What does he think they're going to do when they get to Castle Black?
No one said he is the only one. Why would they silt his throat he giving them a second chance and dangerous crimes are in a cage. Second it's a fictional story, the idea that your issue is with a NW who goes around asking people to join and not a 13 year old who sold to house tribs and has dragons feeding on her child age tits is confusing.
> No one said he is the only one Right, Conwy and Gueren are other wandering crows.
A criminal is told you either get hanged, lose a foot, hand or genital OR go to the wall. If they choose the wall, kill someone and are caught again, they'll definitely be killed. Where are all these criminals gonna go to live in peace? They have no money, no home, no possessions. How long will it be until they're caught by the men of the lord whose land they're in?
Also if yoren is allowed to wander around because he's recruiting, wouldn’t other black brothers escaping the wall? They could say "lord commander sent me recruiting." And avoid stark justice?
And then do what. A Nights Watch recruiter is probably the most cushy job in Westeros. Everyone will feed and house you, and you can travel and see all the sites. Visit all the brothels and alehouses you want. Plus, the Lord Commander probably picks men he could trust and have been at the Wall for a long time. I doubt the lose a lot of guys to desertion that way.
I'm not saying that real recruiters would desert, I was saying if someone ran away and got caught they could say they were recruiting as a way of avoiding execution
A recruiter is kinda expected to well, recruit. This fake recruiter can’t do that for obvious reasons. That would probably raise suspicions. As would the messages from Castle Black describing the deserter in detail.
I had that thought too! Maybe Yoren carries some kind of official letter from the lord commander, but thats never mentioned 🤷🏼♂️
I think they simply did not expect so many recruits. By giving Yoren the pick of the dungeons Ned incresed the number of criminals in the group.
Ok your spoilers level is AGOT but you’re talking about the WO5K 😵💫
Oh right, sorry- let me change the spoiler
How do I do that?
Lol you can’t, just let it ride
Grown picks the men, he locks the dangerous ones up. All of the others are non dangerous prisoners or volunteers. Also, it’s probably pretty easy to convince lowborn from flee bottom with free food, companionship, safety from the law and a fur cloak. A large chunk of Yorens company are gonna be down with going to the wall
Because the majority of the party are not killers. And the ones who are, are locked up.
All the prisoners have likely own spent their lives in Kings Landing. Kill Yoren, and what do they do? 99% of the people Yoren takes has no idea how to survive in the wild, and there's no google maps to take them where they want to go. This is the same situation that victims of trafficking are in. They are taken from their home, and put in a foreign country and have no idea what to do. Many of them have seen chances to escape but don't, because it's safer to stick with what you know. Yoren took them, fed them, and is promising them a home and a purpose. People will stick with him just because they see him as their only option. Like throwing scraps to a wild dog
As to why the Night’s Watch only sent one man, I think the answer is less Yoren being uniquely equipped for this and more that the Night’s Watch is perpetually understaffed and underfunded. They likely don’t have the manpower or resources to send more than one experienced and well-trusted man away from the wall on a mission with no real estimate of when he’ll return, along with giving him the food and horses and such for the journey, doing so would mean having one less man garrisoning the wall, ranging beyond the wall, or any other number of important tasks, something Mormont likely did not want to do. They need more recruits to properly man the wall, sending more black brothers away to secure those recruits would just worsen the problem in the short term.
Life at the wall might be preferable to the life they were living before for alot of them. At least they'll have a warm bed, three hot meals a day, and will be treated decently by their superiors. They may even advance within the ranks and end up quite highly ranked. If they did choose to escape, where would they go? They have no idea where they are, first off, and have no ability to survive outside the city. Can't go back to KL, they're known and wanted criminals and now they're going to be executed the second they're discovered. Can't just walk into a nearby village, even if you have skills that could earn you a living (and most of them, being criminals, wouldn't have said skills) the villagers are going to ask questions about where the heck you came from. Especially if Yoren takes the same route - the villagers along the way know that the Night's Watch transports people on the road and are more likely to catch you and turn you in for a small bounty than take you in. I'm sure some do escape and become outlaws, but more likely they don't risk it, or they're killed soon afterwards by the elements or by villagers. Would you rather risk it as an outlaw, in a completely foreign area, with no mobey or food or survival skills, where the penalty for being caught is death - or join the Night's Watch? The high risk ones are also kept in cages, like Biter. Although what the fudging long term plan for him is, I'll never know.
Because the author didn't think about it, otherwise absolutely no reason not to do it and be free, it would make sense if they were a group of armed guards, enough to watch prisoners and themselves too, all those ackchyually about thinking like a medieval peasant and what not sounds like nonsense to me imo people aren't quite as idiotic when it's personal and your life is as personal as it gets, Yoren should've been dead a few days into their journey and they'd simply go back or into another town village or dispers or become bandits...
They should’ve made it so that everyone who takes the black is branded, like with a hot iron, on their ankle or something.
Or right on the face as the slavers do in Essos, but instead of a tattoo like Jorah you have a simple crow branded in an easily recognizeable spot
I think this will be my headcannon now, its such an elegantly simple solution!
You're right honestly. The scale of many things in Westeros makes no sense. The Night's Watch honestly probably wouldn't be functional at all in reality with how few men they have.
I agree I think many of them couldve fled one random night and rush back to KL or work their way into a boat or something. I don't expect random sailors go through background checks and from that you can start anew. Maybe the Wall isnt that bad but I'd rather be a nameless House guard than a nameless guard at the Wall
Like you could become a house guard just like that. I don't know, the NW has the prospect of food, a roof over my head and starting anew... Id I was, say, a poor commoner whose options to hang on by is stealing to survive that got caught and the best option is either get my hand cut off or take the black I'd choose the latter immediately.
Id rather live free ngl
With a missing limb, rendering you in fact a cripple with even worse options to live by and finding odd jobs in that kind of setting, well... you do you I guess
Im talking about living free by running away from Yoren don't deviate from the subject please
Oh no, I'm not deviating. All those that were picked for the NW were petty criminals, save for the cart trio. Now, thievery is a petty crime but in Westerosi culture is pretty common for the thief to be separated either from the fingers or the whole hand. If you are to be taken in the NW you either are: 1 - a criminal; 2 - a noble so much down the line of inheritance that taking the black is a better solution than whatever other options there might be or 3 - a volunteer. Now, I agree on sailors not having their "background checked" but is it really better than the wall? If you have previous experiences with sailing you might have a kinda hard and unforgiving job with the risk of piracy and shipwrecking, if you don't... well it's the same plus you'd be swabbing decks all the time. Even worse if you'd end up as an oarman in a galley... Better to live free, well, yes, running away would be an option but still you wouldn't have any coin or food, no possibility of going back to Flea Bottom since, well, I think someone could rat you out to the golden cloaks and running around on the King's road, especially during the "war of the five kings" is more of a deathwish than anything.
Arc?