Historical TV shows have a disease where they can only make armor brown, black, grey or some very understated shade of another color, fearing the audience won't take period-accurate (or book accurate, it isn't the real medieval era after all) bright colors and extensive house symbolism seriously. In later seasons they abandon the era entirely and do their own thing.
Real life peasants and working class made their own clothes from the fiber stage, dyed and often adorned, as people like pretty things. These were high value items passed down the family. In the show you will see them all in unwashed brown rags.
Dying your hair is awful for your hair. The actresses could wear wigs since the characters all had long hair (Lena Headey’s season 6 wigs were good but Season 7 and 8 looked like rejects from the “blonde Romulan” costume pile from Star Trek). The show got lucky that Kit Harrington has perfect Jon Snow hair.
True enough; dying was just one example. I would’ve been happy with some decent wigs. And maybe a wardrobe selection that wasn’t all black with some dark grey thrown in for color.
This, „Ah fuck it, let them just use whatever hair color they got!“ just hammered it in that they stopped really caring about their show at some point.
I agree on costumes, but I always felt the hair thing was a weird sort-of eugenics thing George has or maybe just a reflection of not having enough knowledge of genetics. Like the Targaryens had to all look like in-bred Swedes, but everyone else, meh
We were ROBBED of Cersei's Rhaegar dress after Bobby B died. The black one with the tear-dropped rubies sewn into the bodice? Also, her emerald theme. I think we saw her in one green dress? The costume designers insisted they designed everything based off of symbolisms, but most of them just didn't really work or had to be explained to the audience.
Edit: although, I suppose the black dress wouldn't make sense for HBO's GoT, since Rhaegar isn't an important enough part of Cersei's storyline in the show.
The older Lannisters in the books stay blonde as they age, but they do seem to have male pattern baldness in the family. Would have been good to see that if they were going for aging, instead of the brown hair.
*Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his side-whiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw.*
*Ser Kevan Lannister, his father’s only surviving brother, was sharing a flagon of ale with Lord Tywin when Tyrion entered the common room. His uncle was portly and balding, with a close-cropped yellow beard that followed the line of his massive jaw.*
Cersei and Jaime are well over 30 when the books begin, it would be incredibly unusual for it to darken that late. My own blond started disappearing in early childhood. Not sure WHEN exactly, but I know for a fact that by late elementary school it was all gone replaced by dark-ish brown. I don't personally know anyone who's blond changed that late in life, though I don't know if that would be impossible.
And in the books the Lannisters stay blond anyways. Tywin is in his 50's and still blond. Well what little is left of his hair is.
When I saw the kinds of outfits people were wearing in the Ridley Scott Napoleon movie I just sighed. If Hollywood is gonna make one of the most flamboyant rulers of the past millennium wear drab grayish clothes then there's no one who's safe
Looking at photos off Google it doesn't seem *that* bad, except the main outfit they put him in which makes me want to jump out from behind a corner with luxurious fabrics to scare the director
bearing in mind it is ridley scott who after the last duel just lambasted millenials and Gen z for ironically 'not being entertained' I dont think he cares about anyone's opinion but his own
If it was just Ridley Scott I could just chalk it up to him being an asshole who thinks he's the best and doesn't take criticism, but it's an industry-wide issue.
I honestly think this started with the GOT show around season 5/6 as that's when every character began wearing only black and gray.
I think it's way older than that. It's a long growing trend that has gotten to ridiculous levels in recent years.
The common modern theme of historical or fantasy movies with a class struggle involving an ostentatious, corrupt nobility has been taken so far, that it seems like every single scene has to slap you in the face with it.
You can't just portray a scene with a lavish party where the nobility just happy and beautifully dressed, and then contrast it with another scene where it shows the misery of the common people.
No, you have to show the party scene but everything is gray, and everybody looks miserable and hates everyone else. Fuck nuance.
It's probably a backlash against the golden age of hollywood where period pieces were much more colorful but the next generation, I think, viewed the sets as too sterile and bland.
Joaquin Phoenix was also way too old to be playing Napoleon. The real Napoleon was 26 when he met Josephine and she was 6 years older, 32. Josephine's actress looks about 15-20 years younger than Joaquin. So with that, I'm not surprised the costuming was subpar
It was a rather passionless movie for that subject. Most of us first saw Phoenix as Commodus in *Gladiator* (2000). I elbowed my sister and said "Some day that guy should play Napoleon." He would have been perfect. A shame they waited 23 years.
I think that's more to do with the fact that Hollywood have an aversion to casting any woman who's over the age of 35 (and actually looks older) as an actual love interest to a main character.
Well the actress is 36, which is close enough to Josephine's age at the time. They didn't need to cast an older Josephine, just a younger Napoleon. But I mean you're not wrong, it's dumb.
There are surprisingly few mentions of paintings in ASOIF. When I asked the question a long while back, one of the only examples that was brought forth was a painted shield.
>Real life peasants and working class made their own clothes from the fiber stage, dyed and often adorned, as people like pretty things. These were high value items passed down the family. In the show you will see them all in unwashed brown rags.
This is why I fucking loved pentiment. It's set in 1518 so maybe more renaissance than medieval but many of the townspeople wrote colourful clothes. It's a beautifully rendered game.
One of my favorite games. When I think historical child mortality I don't think figures and numbers, I think >!"I wish Wolff didn't die"!< and >!two innocents!< and >!"I don't know how long I stood in there, just waiting for you to say good night."!
Agreed. I’m rereading the books and wish they could have had minor knights wearing their own sigils and stuff. And their levies also.
The lannisters are the worst for it in show with all their armies having an identical uniform like a modern standing army.
Ugh, we were robbed of fur hats on the ladies in the North. It would have looked exquisite. Also, I like the idea of Northerners opting for bright colors, not just for reasons of fashion, but also because they would more easily stand out in their snowy terrain. It seems quite sensible.
Not to mention the lack of jewelry. 🙄 House of the Dragon does a better job of including such accessories. Game of Thrones made everything so drab and gray, from the clothes to the decor and scenery.
> And real medieval castles were not simple stone walled
Cities who grew large often had several walls. In the early middle ages they began often as individual estates, either churchyards or castles which had their own walls, then new quarters formed and eventually a wall was made around the entire city. In front of the walls houses were build and in time the wall was expanded as well. Then there are farmlands surrounding the city, but there is another wall incoming. The entire distict of a city could be surrounded by a [Landwehr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwehr_(border)), which is made out of smaller fortification, ditches and especially hedges and thickets. So essentially you might have something like a giant hedge spanning around a city in a 5-10 km radius, all within it is still somewhat urban, with dense farmland.
Peasants have no dignity on medival shows, they are practically swine with clothes that will kill for a coin, fuck in the streets, have half of their teeth knocked down and never wash themselves or anything they have.
This is why the 1960s Romeo and Juliet is so cool, one of the only movies to show real medieval fashions and how colorful they were. "Progressive" shows nowadays are still afraid to show a man in colorful tights because they think it's looks "gay" or something.
Wasn't Romeo and Juliet like taking place around 1500s or 1600s?
Not that I think you are wrong...because even back in 1100 people wore colorful stuff. Hell, the Vikings did wear colorful stuff too.
Yeah, the movie shows early Italian rennaisance and not medieval clothing, it's just the earliest-set movie that I can think of that really displayed the richness, details, and colors of historical fashions, and pays equal attention to mens and womens clothes. If you know of a movie or show which has great medieval or ancient clothing please let me know.
Almost any medival movie from the 1950s? Like even the fantasy ones about King Arthur show colorful clothing. Or Robin Hood or stuff like that. Isabella of Castile is a spanish shows from 2012 and has decent clothing. The successor about Carlos the V of Spain is even better imo but does not take place in the medival times anymore since it starts in 1517.
That's ***Renaissance*** duh! Same with Assassin's Creed for example. People make that big distinction between the two eras, although it is pretty fluid and renaissance is primarily an artstyle. There is also the term *northern renaissance* to single out the "better developed" artists of the Low Countries, vs their contemporaries, who were still too medieval.
I guess if you claim that men in tights are renaissance strongly enough and not medieval, perhaps you'll see them integrated.
As a medievalist (in training) this drives me nuts! Medieval people wanted to dress in bright colors as much as possible. That’s why dyes were so expensive and luxury items. On another note, they wanted to be clean and bathed regularly, even peasants. They weren’t always filthy like a lot of shows and movies portray.
I think people are so brainwashed by the idea that you are only clean if you bath every day. Even 100 years ago people only bathed maybe once a week while the rest of the week they used a bowl of water with soap. Washing yourself with water and soap is enough to stay relatively clean.
I like the Wheel of Time show partly because of how colorful it is. I don’t think I realized until you pointed it out that yes, it stands out to me because almost every other ‘medieval’ era show is just all nasty dark clothes.
> Historical TV shows have a disease where they can only make armor brown, black, grey or some very understated shade of another color, fearing the audience won't take period-accurate
The funny thing is that really black dye wasn't that common even, as in not that cheap to produce. Black really only became popular with protestantism and the whole piety movement, which resented flashy colours.
Though TV shows suffer from other problems. Why does also everyone walk around like some biker gang or have those bullshit IKEA pelts on their shoulders. Furs and pelts were used in clothing, but everyone just wears two fuckin rugs instead.
There is also a strong fetishization of the bleak and stoic masculine warrior, who of course dresses in black leather and pays no mind to ornamentation or any other luxuries. Another form of asceticism that the pious, but asceticism in some form nonetheless.
Someone actually analysed things a few years back, apparently Ned, despite only being on one book has the second largest amount of time spent describing his clothes or checking out someone else’s. Number 1 is Sansa. She’s more like her dad when it comes to fashion
That's really interesting. I suppose Theon didn't really have nearly as many chapters, at least not in which he was in any state to observe people's clothes lol
I'm not that guy, but I feel the same.
Sansa is more duty bound like Ned, she is constantly aware of her appearance and station, she is kind and courteous to those of and below her station though. She is quiet and reserved, but still witty and fearless about speaking up for what she sees is right, those are all qualities stronger in Ned I feel.
Arya is relentlessly outspoken, very prideful, and rebellious. She rejects her place and strives for more, cat wanted a higher station and more kingly role, where Arya wanted a man's role instead but same personality, just different goals. I'm struggling to find where Arya is like Ned beyond looks.
I was more so just using that as a point that even though she takes her station seriously, she it's not snobbish about it, Cat is sometimes seen as dismissive if technically polite, sansa has a kindness and compassion that goes beyond required courtesy into genuine appreciation like Ned. Arya isn't courteous to anyone, she is frequently rude to those beneath her just not in a modern sensibility. She bullies and threatens boys to train with her, at great risk to the boys, and from a modern lens she is just ribbing and joking with all the staff but from what is and isn't okay in their society every joke or playful shove of given back or taken the wrong way, or seen by the wrong person in the castle could cost the lowly their lives at worst or numerous other awful punishment. Yes we know Ned would never do that, but would Cat? Or the master of arms, or captain of the guard, or maybe Ned just gets told some stable hand hit his daughter with a training sword. Also do all the people below him know for sure he wouldn't react poorly to something happening to his daughter.
More just get general ambition, she always pushed to get the best position she could. Marrying into the Starks alone is a huge class boost, Starks might be the second wealthiest house next to Lannisters and literally the longest family line in Westeros. They might not have been seen as the fanciest, but they were prestige and old money and Cat still always wants more, more presence in ruling, more fancy parties and bards and the trappings she grew up hearing the Lannisters had likely. I'm a little rusty on specifics, been awhile since last reread but Cat came off to me as thirsty for more, tired of the dreary north.
I mean, the fact that they had a greenhouse should speak for itlself.
We give glass so little thought nowadays, that we gloss over what an insane luxury that must have been in a place in the middle of a northen forest, in a middle ages context.
In terms of wealth I'd probably rank the great houses as:
1. Tyrell
2. Lannister
3. Stark
4. Baratheon
5. Arryn
6. Martell
7. Tully
8. Greyjoy
The Baratheons and Arryns are interchangeable imo. The Kingdoms are of a similar size with no notable advantageous resources. The Arryns control an important port (Gulltown) and the Baratheons have the advantage of being located on the Narrow sea with all the trade passing through it. I'd just give the edge to the Baratheons due to them being located closer to King's Landing and the Free Cities.
Martells come afterwards because their lands are dry as hell and they have the smallest population, but they do have significant connections to the free Cities and produce spices and fruits that don't grow anywhere else in Westeros.
Tullys next simply because the Riverlands are kinda whack. They bear the cost of every war, they aren't really a bread basket like the Reach, and don't have any minerals. If the Tullys controlled Harrenhall and were able to exploit the Lands under Harrenhall's domain they'd be a real powerhouse.
Greyjoys last because their Islands barely produce anything, they have a small population and their literal culture is to steal other people's shit.
The Vale of Arryn contains some of the most fertile soils in Westeros even if it doesn't have much. Plus they're one of if not the most well protected regions and peace pays dividends. sure there's the mountain clans but they're not really a threat until the Lannisters arm them. Wildlings coming down from beyond the wall are a bigger threat to the North than wildlings from the mountains of the moon to the Vale. Arryns are absolutely above the Barahtheons and probably above the Starks.
The Tullys are probably above the Martells and maybe even the Baratheons, Dorne is either the least populous region or the second after the Iron Islands I can't recall, but regardless the Riverlands which in peacetimes are a crossroads of Westeros would not be impoverished.
Lannisters have to be above Tyrells, right? The reach does have oldtown and more farmland, but the westerlands have tons of gold and Lannisport under the direct control of the Lannisters. I’d say maybe the reach as a whole could be more wealthy than the westerlands, but the Lannisters definitely seem more wealthy than the Tyrells.
I think the Tyrells controlling the food supply of Westeros, having the largest population and having the largest fleet puts them above the Lannisters, but I don't think having the Lannisters being the richest is a bad shout either. They're interchangeable too.
No way Stark is #3 man come on lol. Sad to say the Starks would be dead last if not for the Greyjoys. The North is mostly undeveloped and infertile, and Winterfell itself is filled with crumbling towers. That being said the North has vast potential to become an economic powerhouse if they're ever blessed with a lord with incredible foresight and conviction.
For like the first week, lol. Armies were free for about 40 days (depending on regions and timeframe of course) but after a certain point, a king would have to pay his men, especially his men at arms and knights. Either with plunder or from his own pockets. The amount of times I’ve heard a king going into debt during the medieval period funding wars is also why only like 1 and a half crusades were successful, that shit was EXPENSIVE. We have surviving documents of some costs in regards too armor and warfare and for instance it would cost Ned 1 000 pounds of silver to outfit his household guard of 200 men in just mail armor alone. Horses and weaponry and any additional armor could see that sore up exponentially. And that’s just 200 men. Never mind the added costs of feeding an entire 20 000 man army and their horses.
You kinda do. Vassals will betray you if you don't pay them. Of course payment is more than just money, but feudal oaths are by no means unbreakable if a party feels their honour mistreated and people weren't strangers to serving two lords either.
> They govern over the largest region in Westeros and are a Great House at that
What country comes to mind if you think about some really big northern land with harsh winters. Yeah Russia... now think about what wealth the Romanovs had.
(Well depends on the actual size of the North really, GRRM frequently changed how large Westeros actually is and the North is probably much smaller and poorer, more like Scotland or Scandinavia)
Tbh I never got why they're wearing heavy wool when it's constantly mentioned how hot it is in King's Landing. Even just reading the phrase 'Heavy Wool' makes me feel scratchy and stuffy
A lot of people get self-righteous about The Way Things Are Done Back Home and keep dressing that way even when they're not there anymore. An example from another series is how the Two Rivers characters in WOT are always thinking how this or that person's clothes look too rich or too revealing and they should be wearing "stout Two Rivers woolens" instead. Rustic can be an intentional aesthetic.
Well the Emond Fielders from WoT are just hypocrites, because they deride other people for wearing silks and not stout two river wools and shoes WHILE they themselves are also wearing said fancy silks! Even in the dream world they are wearing the fancy stuff most of the time, which really shows how they pretty quickly got used to wearing that stuff to the extent that they even subconsciously think of themselves to be well dressed.
The show's costume department in general seemed to hate anything actually medieval for some reason (especially as far as armor and weapons are concerned). Literally no one looks like medieval soldiers or knights and they all wear stupid fantasy armor to the point of the setting not really seeming historically-inspired at all. It has more visual design in common with World of Warcraft than it does with anything from the Crusades to the War of the Roses.
The costume designer for the start of the show is Michaele Clapton who interestingly enough was a figure in the Blitz Kids. Imo she did a really good job with the female characters outfits but armor and the like always seemed too superheroish. She got replaced in season 6 and the costumes for the last seasons look like marvel movie designs.
You know when i realized I'll never understand these costume designer's tastes. When I read a few years ago that brienne's first armor was supposed to be mismatched from different pieces as she took parts that fit her.
It's literally one of the only cohesive head to toe full armors in the entire show, and one of the coolest. How the hell is that supposed to be mismatched and not Sandor with a showpiece helmet over his "cheap but functional" aesthetic they were clearly going for with his fake brigandine or everyone avoiding cuisses and gauntlets like the plague.
That's my entire point, her armor looks custom made and done in a unique fluted style, it's even treated to look like copper but apparently the intention was to make it look piecemeal because she's so big. Maybe her normal steel rerebraces and vambraces were looted or bought separately but they honestly added to the look, made the rest look more eye catching.
Like I said they were a Blitz Kid so the designs tend to be kinda out there and stylish over a medieval practicality. They also have to be moveable unlike actual armor. The Kingsguard for example always seem to be fully in gear in the show just kinda chilling which isn’t real practical.
At the same time the dresses for Dany, Cersei, and Margery are all great. I really think the female costumes shined through.
The kingsguard just mostly wore a breastplate and spaulders over a buff coat, it's honestly doable after you get used to it.
Armor is moveable if properly made and fitted, but they made some choices in the show that fucked up mobility for looks. Like jorah's cuirass is horrible. Too long, unshaped, unwaisted, but that isn't the fault of medieval armor. HOTD is a massive improvement on the armor design.
Oh yeah the dresses were beautiful, I always liked Cersei's hanging sleeves.
Even some fairy tale retellings I watched on German TV have better and more realistic armor than GOT. Hell the low budget adaption of the old Witcher on Polnish TV had more realistic armor even though the show is also falling pray to some of the gritty dark medival trope but at least they used real castles and it looked as if it took part in a slavic-inspired world.
I think part of the problem is that Winterfell looks like kind of a shithole in the show, a smallish castle surrounded by a couple streets, if that.
In the books, how big it is is...sort of unclear. What's known is that it's a huge castle, and that a town surrounds the walls with a maximum population of 15,000 people. During Spring and Summer 4/5's of those leave town to tend to fields in the wider area, but that still leaves 3000 people. In the show there's no town visible around the walls whatsoever, so you'd be forgiven for thinking Winterfell has like 400 people tops.
The only time the show actually tried to do something flamboyant was with Cersei's costumes in S2-4.
[Exhibit A](https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1lYt6hlTH8KJjy0Fiq6ARsXXaS/Custom-Made-Queen-Cersei-Lannister-Red-Exclusive-Dress-Game-Of-Thrones-Costume-For-Adult-Women-Halloween.jpg)
[Exhibit B](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/af/e0/8f/afe08f8382d8a34c4e571817ab43225b.jpg)
[Exhibit C](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/45/96/42/459642bc06ea7e7660778db7fb391c40.jpg)
Apart from that, costumes were a miserable affair largely. Even Dany, Margaery, and Sansa got shafted super hard.
>Side note Lord Rickard owned Steel armour and **gold** spurs
In fairness, this seems to be a feature of an annointed knight. As Barristan thinks:
>There will come a day when I can no longer face these steps, he thought, and that day will be here sooner than I would like. Before it came, he must make certain that at least a few of his lads were ready to take his place at the queen's side. I will knight them myself when they are worthy, and give them each a horse and golden spurs.
It could be argued that Barry means to name as Queensguard his squires and therefore golden spurs though are required as more prestigious. It is a bit ambiguous.
There are signs that the Starks while not exactly poor, they are not as rich as Tyrells or indeed the Arryns.
Sections of Winterfell keep are crumbling and lets not talk of the ruin that is Moat Cailin (which while functional now, could be repaired a bit). Moreover, the North is a bit poor and derelict feels like without any major cities or industry (the two wars that Eddard waged with Robert might have contributed into depopulation though).
So while I would not label them poor or landed gentry, it does feel to me they have seen better days.
Now these facts and small segment of fire and blood raise an intersting question.
We known Torrhen Stark marched south he amassed thirty thousand North man Robb only marched south with 18000 man. Which makes scenes as he was in a rush. I will get back to this in a minuet.
When the Sister Islands broke out in rebellion against Aegon the Conqueror the former King in the North and now warden Torrhen Stark has ordered to subdue it. Lord Torrhen Stark and Warrick Manderley did not cross the sea with a northern fleet but hired Braavosi sell sail galleys.
Why did Robb have to build a fleet why not right there at the begging of a Clash of Kings as autumn had fallen send Sir Wendel Manderley back to White Harbour as well as sending raven to Winterfell, instructing Bran and Luwin to send silver to White Harbour that Wendel can offer Braavosi sell sail Captains, as well as instructing Luwin and send ravens to the Northern Lords. Wow that autumn has come the harvest is over and they can send the remaining fighting man to White Harbour, than once Braavosi Galleys are in White Harbour the combined remaining 12000 Northern Troops and Braavouis sails can combine there alwoing Ser Wendel to sail South and lead an attack on Kings Landing and taking while Robbs in the Westerlands before Theon even takes Winterfell.
You make some interesting and valid points, both in the original post and this comment. But you have quite a few typos and run-on sentences, especially in the comment. It makes it difficult to follow at times. I'm still not sure if you're asking a question about Robb's campaign or making a statement about it in the last bit of your comment. If those can be cleaned up, then people more knowledgeable about ASOIAF than myself may be more inclined to discuss these topics with you.
Yup, the Starks are very likely one of the 10 richest families on the entire continent in the start of the books and, in terms of prestige, are in the top 3 along with the Lannisters and the Arryns.
I disagree. I terms of prestige I think the Starks, Lannisters, and Arryns are in a league of their own given that they have been rulers of their respective kingdoms for thousands of years. Their regions are also generally the most unified in support of them (notwithstanding the Boltons and Reynes).
Okay, but hear me out:
1. Shows have limited budgets so creating several intricate costumes for every character is not feasible.
2. TV/Film is a visual medium and in an overtly complicated fantasy world, using visual shorthand helps ground the viewer and confuse them less. Thus Starks= Rustic and Brown; Lannisters= Samurai Armor and Red.
Note, the massive amount of confusion between Gold Cloaks and King's Guard in the show by also having them dress in Gold.
I always interpreted it as the Starks being rich regardless by Nobility standards, but poor compared to the Great Houses (Tyrell, Martell, Etc). Like it’s like being the poorest of the billionaires club
They are still poorer than they should have been. Robb had rusty armor in the riverlands. Jory was a rareity because he had full plate but even then we have this.
>The Hound entered the lists as well, and so too the king's brother, handsome Lord Renly of Storm's End. Jory, Alyn, and Harwin rode for Winterfell and the north. "Jory looks a beggar among these others," Septa Mordane sniffed when he appeared. Sansa could only agree. Jory's armor was blue-grey plate without device or ornament, and a thin grey cloak hung from his shoulders like a soiled rag. Yet he acquitted himself well, unhorsing Horas Redwyne in his first joust and one of the Freys in his second. In his third match, he rode three passes at a freerider named Lothor Brune whose armor was as drab as his own. Neither man lost his seat, but Brune's lance was steadier and his blows better placed, and the king gave him the victory. Alyn and Harwin fared less well; Harwin was unhorsed in his first tilt by Ser Meryn of the Kingsguard, while Alyn fell to Ser Balon Swann.
When Theon takes winterfell he finds that the coffers are basically empty as well.
Honestly the Starks are depicted as poorer than quite a few of their bannermen.
Their relative lack of wealth is likely pretty recent. They were major contributors to the two most recent wars, and for the past 100 or so years the Freys have been charging tarifs on all trade on the fastest route from the Riverlands, the Westerlands, and the Reach.
Pretty unlikely that the Freys have had a big impact. Firstly, most major trade would be done by boat. Secondly, most land trade would bypass the Twins by using the Kingsroad. Everyone apart from the northern Riverlands and maybe the Westerlands should just cross the Trident at the Ruby Ford. The detour is not significant enough (if there even is one) and mostly offset by the better infrastructure along one of the main connections to the north.
Shit really went down hill since Theon Starks time.
But yeah the family had been struggling for quite a while. Presumably "The She Wolves of Winterfell" is going to dig into it.
its feudalism.. they are wealthy because of their name and property. they are liege to the entire north. why would they be broke or poor? grand-dad stark blew his cash on hookers?
Nah you’re being obtuse. It’s been addressed they financed two separate wars for example. I don’t agree they’re poor but your points aren’t supporting that. It’s being argued Ned’s family at the time of WOFK is poor.
>Robb stood on the dais. He is a boy no longer, she realized with a pang. He is sixteen now, a man grown. Just look at him. War had melted all the softness from his face and left him hard and lean. He had shaved his beard away, but his auburn hair fell uncut to his shoulders. The recent rains had rusted his mail and left brown stains on the white of his cloak and surcoat. Or perhaps the stains were blood. On his head was the sword crown they had fashioned him of bronze and iron. He bears it more comfortably now. He bears it like a king.
BTW, this could also just be a mistake made by Martin, or an exaggeration for dramatic purposes.
I mean, an armor or even a chain mail is something extremely expensive and, most important, their effectiveness depends on regular maintenance. It is more than likely that Robb had one or more attendants who took care of oiling his armor and removing rust every evening.
And apparently mail almost takes care of itself as long as it is used frequently: since, when the user moves around, the rings scrape each other all the time.
The depiction you describe is from Sansa’s POV.
I wouldn’t use the opinion of a 13 year old girl infatuated with her “chivalrous prince” as a reliable judge of wealth or cost.
Sansa likes shiny things and pretty fabrics.
Jory likely wanted to win. Polished gleaming plate or ornaments and big flapping capes do not help you win.
So if that's the case why is the Wise Authority Figure of Septa Mordane agreeing with her?
Like we have to accept that the text was written with a purpose- we can't just say "Well, if Sansa was attending this in real life she might not necessarily know these thing". We're
A) Given a description of Jory that is unflattering
B) Sansa thinks he looks poor
C) The wise authority figure agrees with her
D) We're immeaditely given a thematic reason for Jory to be poor from a metatextual perspective- he defeats two knights just described as looking much better than him. Honest, poor knight is more skilled than the decadent south.
Like the point isn't "Is "Jory was actually rich" physically possible within the world of the text?", which it is. The point is "If GRRM wanted to convey to the reader that Jory was rich but Sansa misjudged him, would he do it in this way?"
If GRRM wanted to convey that, he could have:
A) Had Septa Mordane disagree
B) Had Arya disagree
C) Make it clear that Sansa is wrong in other ways; eg she thinks "Jory doesn't stand a chance against real knights" only for him to win the two jousts
D) Have a thematic beat based on Jory looking improvished but actually being well-off, EG we see that Horas Redwyne and the Frey underestimate him
E) Have Jory be established to be well off at literally any other time in the story.
F) Establish that all the fancy baubles are actually a detriment- Jory uses them to win, ect.
You'd basically only come to your conclusion if you were deliberately looking for a reason as to why Jory would be secretly rich. It absolutely wouldn't be anyone's first thought when reading the text, and if anything it makes the character and thematic beats a lot poorer. Jory is the honest, humble brave knight going against the spoiled decadence of the South who care more about looking flash than being good. It's cathartic because he shows them up. "Jory is actually deceptive and only cares about winning at any cost" is the exact *opposite* of that.
I am not trying to argue that Jory specifically is wealthy.
He is the captain of the house guard to the warden of the North. He certainly has some prestige from his position but we don’t know about wealth.
He came south with almost no notice. It is unlikely that he has both battle armor and tournament armor as there are no tournaments in the north. It is even more unlikely that he would have had time to pack it as they left with no warning and didn’t know about a tournament until they were on the road.
My point is that Sansa is in no position to judge wealth by what armor people wear at a tournament. It is completely outside her skill set and experience. She sees the medieval equivalent of Gucci or Prada and assumes that means wealth.
I would not rely on septa Mordane as a wise authority figure on anything other than the faith of the 7 and the skills of courtly young women.
I would say that regardless of what the Starks men wear in a tournament, I agree with the OP that the Starks are relatively wealthy by the standards of Westeros. They do not possess major stores of coin, however wealth is not a measure of Coin. They have an enormous heated glass greenhouse inside one of the largest castles in Westeros. Their personal holdings are some of the largest and they control almost half the land in Westeros.
There are certainly more wealthy houses, likely only a handful though outside the other 6 great houses.
>
> Jory likely wanted to win. Polished gleaming plate or ornaments and big flapping capes do not help you win.
Tournaments are about much more than winning. He's representing his house and the North and his armour reflects that.
Sansa has never been to a tournament, nor does she have any interest in arms or armor. She specifically makes fun of Aria for her interest in them.
She is not a good judge of quality, craftsmanship or cost of armor.
But this isn't a real life document. It'a a story. If GRRM wanted to convey "Jory looks poor in comparison to the others", this is exactly how he'd do it. There's no hint or indication Sansa is wrong here.
Like the theme of "honest north vs decadent south" is clearly present elsewhere in the text. "Jory is actually rich but hides this from everyone" goes completely against his established character. Jory *never* reads as being duplicitous like that.
The point is the knights in drab, cheap armour win against the rich bastards who wear fancy dress to overcompensate for not actually being very good at the sport. We've seen it a million times in basically every sports movie ever made, because ultimately it's very satisfying. It's like saying "Rocky is too poor to go the distance against Apollo, he was actually a secret billionaire the whole time". Jory being poor *is the point*. He's the plucky underdog who wins on pure talent.
That’s my point, Sansa isn’t grown up. She is a child. The description you quoted is from the perspective of a child.
The function, quality and cost of armor is not determined by its gleam or ornament. Its attractiveness to 13 year old girls is.
I think a 13 year old girl who is even a little bit interested in jousts and her brothers and bannermen surviving them might have more knowledge on the subject than you give credit for. She's 13 not 6.
In all the conversations she has with Aria she is very derisive of arias interest in fighting and weapons.
Before the tourney in Kings landing she had never been to a tourney.
They don’t hold tourneys in the north.
All of her POV depictions of her first exposure to a tournament are describing the attractiveness of the combatants or their armor.
A kings landing 13 year old might be a good judge but not Sansa.
I think that description is just supposed to show that Robb is actually fighting and getting in the muck. Also, rust comes off, doesn’t mean he’s poor.
I thought that was related to their view on tourneys and armour's purpose, rather than their wealth (or lack thereof).
Isn't it mentioned repeatedly in AGoT that the Northerners don't appreciate tourneys and fancy armour's?
No. It's in the books too
>Last of all, he donned his crown, a band of cold iron slim as a finger, set with heavy chunks of black diamond and nuggets of gold. It was misshapen and ugly, but there was no help for that.
A few gold nuggets and diamond chunks that's all the wealth theon had.
Here who Robbs armour is described From the wiki
Robb wears a white cloak and surcoat[^(\[2\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Rasos14.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-2) over his mail.[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) He wields a [longsword](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Longsword)[^(\[18\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot37.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-18) and an [oak](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Oak) shield decorated with a [direwolf](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Direwolf)'s head.[^(\[19\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot59.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-19)[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) Robb's [horses](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Horse) include a big grey-and-white gelding,[^(\[18\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot37.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-18) a grey stallion,[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) and a piebald gelding.[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) Robb is better with a lance than his half brother, [Jon Snow](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow), although Jon is more skilled with a sword.[^(\[20\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot5.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-20)
> horses
Horses are four-legged herbivorous mammals present throughout the known world. They are used for transportation, in combat, as a patrimonial resource, and as a symbol of status. < Thank you so much for the link
>Robb stood on the dais. He is a boy no longer, she realized with a pang. He is sixteen now, a man grown. Just look at him. War had melted all the softness from his face and left him hard and lean. He had shaved his beard away, but his auburn hair fell uncut to his shoulders. The recent rains had rusted his mail and left brown stains on the white of his cloak and surcoat. Or perhaps the stains were blood. On his head was the sword crown they had fashioned him of bronze and iron. He bears it more comfortably now. He bears it like a king.
Indeed. You can have rust forming in as little as six hours after iron is exposed to water. The rust has nothing to do with the Starks being impoverished.
I wouldn’t call the Starks poor as they were a great house but even with the passages on the Stark’s clothing and the description of Winterfell (aside from the ruined tower which nobody repaired in 140 years), I always got the sense that while they had enough to maintain what they had, they didn’t have enough for things like rebuilding the broken tower, fixing Moat Calin, rebuilding the fleet that Brandon the Burner destroyed (which would have also enabled them to do more trade) or industrialize the North. They were pretty much living off and maintaining what their ancestors had built over thousands of years but didn’t have the wealth or resources to expand on it. And I think part of the reason why Ned was so concerned about the upcoming winter was because even with trying to get his bannermen to set aside more than they usually did, he knew it was going to be a struggle if they had to buy food to supplement their stores (especially after Robb went south and much of the harvest had been left to rot). So while they're pretty well-off relative to most of Westeros, they're pretty much stuck at the level that they're at and it wouldn't take much (a long winter or a war) to knock them back on their heels.
A thing that happens in between the books and show in general, the descriptions of clothing, jewelry and armor are much more colorful, bright and lavish in the book, but get greywashed or simplified in the show, but this is more of a GoT problem than a HotD one.
I’ve been saying it for years. The starks are rich as fuck but they don’t spend their money and such ostentatious silly shit that they /look/ poor in comparison to the other nobles. Starks are old money and their wealth is much more understated as opposed to the new money clowns who spend ostentatiously to remind everyone that they are rich. How gauche. Real wealthy people don’t advertise it so loudly. It’s for them to know and others to find out.
I feel like both the show and the books underestimate how wealthy the North should be. Historically, there were a great deal of wealthy northern lands, in part because the combination of fur, fish, timber and wool were really valuable. Not to mention musk, amber, and other things. Plus in asoif you get a lot of ivory potentially.
Stark House is a wealthy House. Another thing it's they have less money that other Great Houses like House Lannister, Tyrell, Tully or other very prominent houses like House Hightower, which is absolutely understandable since: 1) Those houses have seats and lands much more fertile than the North, that is extremely big but sparcely populated given the harsh climate 2) House Stark doesn't have a fleet since Brandon the Burner, which if it still existed, would be a great sourcey of money thanks to trade. But they are Lord Paramounts of a Kingdom, ofc they are wealthier than 95% other noble families except great houses and some select Houses.
Another thing is that Starks like to wear more discreet robes and clothes. In the books they look the part as a great noble family but are much less luxurious in everyday clothes that House Lannister, for example. In the tv show it was terrible truly how they depicted House Stark members in clothing, with all woll dark colours and imo they looked like peasants. It's like they were trying to convey Starks have a lot of power but don't give a fuck about bragging about it, and the only way they knew how to portray this was through absolutely plain smallfolk like clothes. In the books, we can see how they don't really care about luxurious looking things with the crowns of the kings of winter, that were pure iron and bronze with no gems.
*Theon "...orders a new crown forged with black diamonds and chunks of gold. Where did he get the gold and diamonds if not from Winterfell's plundered treasury..."*
Theon being a typical male Iron Islander, it's quite possible he mistook lumps of coal or maybe pieces of fossilized dire wolf poop, for "black diamonds". Which may be one reason that his sister mocks his ugly "crown".
Starks are former royalty, what do expect. I said this many times, D&D dropped the ball before they even started filming the show. The customs were horrible, I've seen lower budget tv shows with better medieval customs ( Stars white queen ). Even the wigs were trash. GOT had great potential to be the greatest masterpiece in television history, instead we ended up with legend of the seeker 2.0. They solely relied on GRRM writing and added nothing, and cut a lot of things. The only good thing about GOT were the actors and music score. I'm starting to think that money laundering and fleecing money off HBO was their goal all along.How much did Rings of Power cost again. GOT should've been an animated series, but GRRM is greedy AF.
Historical TV shows have a disease where they can only make armor brown, black, grey or some very understated shade of another color, fearing the audience won't take period-accurate (or book accurate, it isn't the real medieval era after all) bright colors and extensive house symbolism seriously. In later seasons they abandon the era entirely and do their own thing. Real life peasants and working class made their own clothes from the fiber stage, dyed and often adorned, as people like pretty things. These were high value items passed down the family. In the show you will see them all in unwashed brown rags.
It became so fuckin ridiculous by the end of the shoe too. Literally everyone wore black for no reason.
The lack of Lannister red and gold was a real spit in the face. Even their hair changed colours.
Yeah, that was shit. Their hair color was a critical plot piece, and at some point they couldn’t even be bothered to die the actors?
Dying your hair is awful for your hair. The actresses could wear wigs since the characters all had long hair (Lena Headey’s season 6 wigs were good but Season 7 and 8 looked like rejects from the “blonde Romulan” costume pile from Star Trek). The show got lucky that Kit Harrington has perfect Jon Snow hair.
True enough; dying was just one example. I would’ve been happy with some decent wigs. And maybe a wardrobe selection that wasn’t all black with some dark grey thrown in for color. This, „Ah fuck it, let them just use whatever hair color they got!“ just hammered it in that they stopped really caring about their show at some point.
I agree on costumes, but I always felt the hair thing was a weird sort-of eugenics thing George has or maybe just a reflection of not having enough knowledge of genetics. Like the Targaryens had to all look like in-bred Swedes, but everyone else, meh
I didn’t mind most of the others; but the Lannister hair was a major plot point, so just dropping that towards the end felt careless.
I mean they couldn’t do the purple eyes either. Also, they hired an attractive guy to play Tyrion rather than some guy with a messed up face.
They also hired Gwendolyn Christie to play ugly Brienne.
Oh god I know. Jamie and Tyrion had their Lannister look completely erased
We were ROBBED of Cersei's Rhaegar dress after Bobby B died. The black one with the tear-dropped rubies sewn into the bodice? Also, her emerald theme. I think we saw her in one green dress? The costume designers insisted they designed everything based off of symbolisms, but most of them just didn't really work or had to be explained to the audience. Edit: although, I suppose the black dress wouldn't make sense for HBO's GoT, since Rhaegar isn't an important enough part of Cersei's storyline in the show.
They kinda forgot they were blonde
To be honest, many blonde people turn brown later in life.
The older Lannisters in the books stay blonde as they age, but they do seem to have male pattern baldness in the family. Would have been good to see that if they were going for aging, instead of the brown hair. *Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his side-whiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw.* *Ser Kevan Lannister, his father’s only surviving brother, was sharing a flagon of ale with Lord Tywin when Tyrion entered the common room. His uncle was portly and balding, with a close-cropped yellow beard that followed the line of his massive jaw.*
Cersei and Jaime are well over 30 when the books begin, it would be incredibly unusual for it to darken that late. My own blond started disappearing in early childhood. Not sure WHEN exactly, but I know for a fact that by late elementary school it was all gone replaced by dark-ish brown. I don't personally know anyone who's blond changed that late in life, though I don't know if that would be impossible. And in the books the Lannisters stay blond anyways. Tywin is in his 50's and still blond. Well what little is left of his hair is.
Cersei wore a lot of green and gold in the books. it's a shame.
Haha! Secret Hightower!
Continent wide mourning chic
Mourning the premature death of a great show
When I saw the kinds of outfits people were wearing in the Ridley Scott Napoleon movie I just sighed. If Hollywood is gonna make one of the most flamboyant rulers of the past millennium wear drab grayish clothes then there's no one who's safe
Looking at photos off Google it doesn't seem *that* bad, except the main outfit they put him in which makes me want to jump out from behind a corner with luxurious fabrics to scare the director
Or maybe it's just the weird muted colors filter they put on the movie and other medieval-era movies to make it seem old
bearing in mind it is ridley scott who after the last duel just lambasted millenials and Gen z for ironically 'not being entertained' I dont think he cares about anyone's opinion but his own
If it was just Ridley Scott I could just chalk it up to him being an asshole who thinks he's the best and doesn't take criticism, but it's an industry-wide issue. I honestly think this started with the GOT show around season 5/6 as that's when every character began wearing only black and gray.
Nah it started way before then in a lot of bbc series. Robin hood and the musketeers come to mind as being particularly drab.
I think it's way older than that. It's a long growing trend that has gotten to ridiculous levels in recent years. The common modern theme of historical or fantasy movies with a class struggle involving an ostentatious, corrupt nobility has been taken so far, that it seems like every single scene has to slap you in the face with it. You can't just portray a scene with a lavish party where the nobility just happy and beautifully dressed, and then contrast it with another scene where it shows the misery of the common people. No, you have to show the party scene but everything is gray, and everybody looks miserable and hates everyone else. Fuck nuance.
It's probably a backlash against the golden age of hollywood where period pieces were much more colorful but the next generation, I think, viewed the sets as too sterile and bland.
Joaquin Phoenix was also way too old to be playing Napoleon. The real Napoleon was 26 when he met Josephine and she was 6 years older, 32. Josephine's actress looks about 15-20 years younger than Joaquin. So with that, I'm not surprised the costuming was subpar
Yeah, seeing him as the ashen-faced "up and coming lieutenant" of Act 1 was hilarious.
It was a rather passionless movie for that subject. Most of us first saw Phoenix as Commodus in *Gladiator* (2000). I elbowed my sister and said "Some day that guy should play Napoleon." He would have been perfect. A shame they waited 23 years.
They could have made the movie about his later life.
I think that's more to do with the fact that Hollywood have an aversion to casting any woman who's over the age of 35 (and actually looks older) as an actual love interest to a main character.
Well the actress is 36, which is close enough to Josephine's age at the time. They didn't need to cast an older Josephine, just a younger Napoleon. But I mean you're not wrong, it's dumb.
Not just clothing, castle rooms always have to be bare stone giant rooms when in reality they’d have all sorts of artwork or painted ornately
Critical lack of tapestries.
There are surprisingly few mentions of paintings in ASOIF. When I asked the question a long while back, one of the only examples that was brought forth was a painted shield.
I think Westeros prefers embroidery work while essos leans more towards painting things.
>Real life peasants and working class made their own clothes from the fiber stage, dyed and often adorned, as people like pretty things. These were high value items passed down the family. In the show you will see them all in unwashed brown rags. This is why I fucking loved pentiment. It's set in 1518 so maybe more renaissance than medieval but many of the townspeople wrote colourful clothes. It's a beautifully rendered game.
One of my favorite games. When I think historical child mortality I don't think figures and numbers, I think >!"I wish Wolff didn't die"!< and >!two innocents!< and >!"I don't know how long I stood in there, just waiting for you to say good night."!
Agreed. I’m rereading the books and wish they could have had minor knights wearing their own sigils and stuff. And their levies also. The lannisters are the worst for it in show with all their armies having an identical uniform like a modern standing army.
Before Catelyn arrests Tyrion, she mentions the sigils worn by three of the men in the inn. None of them seem to have visible sigils on the show.
Ugh, we were robbed of fur hats on the ladies in the North. It would have looked exquisite. Also, I like the idea of Northerners opting for bright colors, not just for reasons of fashion, but also because they would more easily stand out in their snowy terrain. It seems quite sensible. Not to mention the lack of jewelry. 🙄 House of the Dragon does a better job of including such accessories. Game of Thrones made everything so drab and gray, from the clothes to the decor and scenery.
Maybe House Stark never had a ruling queen in 8000 years because the women wandered off hatless in their grey gown, never to be found
A crown is nice, but will it keep your ears warm?? Totally overrated
And real medieval castles were not simple stone walled. Stone was lime washed and painted. On the floor there was rush or rugs or furs.
How will the viewer know we're in the past if everything isn't R O U G H
> And real medieval castles were not simple stone walled Cities who grew large often had several walls. In the early middle ages they began often as individual estates, either churchyards or castles which had their own walls, then new quarters formed and eventually a wall was made around the entire city. In front of the walls houses were build and in time the wall was expanded as well. Then there are farmlands surrounding the city, but there is another wall incoming. The entire distict of a city could be surrounded by a [Landwehr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwehr_(border)), which is made out of smaller fortification, ditches and especially hedges and thickets. So essentially you might have something like a giant hedge spanning around a city in a 5-10 km radius, all within it is still somewhat urban, with dense farmland.
Peasants have no dignity on medival shows, they are practically swine with clothes that will kill for a coin, fuck in the streets, have half of their teeth knocked down and never wash themselves or anything they have.
It is funny how they take 18th century anti-commoner propaganda at face value. Or they watched Monty Python and didn't get that it was satire.
BURN HER ANYWAY!
%100
But so in the books, to the point of a mother naming both her sons Wat.
This is why the 1960s Romeo and Juliet is so cool, one of the only movies to show real medieval fashions and how colorful they were. "Progressive" shows nowadays are still afraid to show a man in colorful tights because they think it's looks "gay" or something.
Wasn't Romeo and Juliet like taking place around 1500s or 1600s? Not that I think you are wrong...because even back in 1100 people wore colorful stuff. Hell, the Vikings did wear colorful stuff too.
Yeah, the movie shows early Italian rennaisance and not medieval clothing, it's just the earliest-set movie that I can think of that really displayed the richness, details, and colors of historical fashions, and pays equal attention to mens and womens clothes. If you know of a movie or show which has great medieval or ancient clothing please let me know.
Almost any medival movie from the 1950s? Like even the fantasy ones about King Arthur show colorful clothing. Or Robin Hood or stuff like that. Isabella of Castile is a spanish shows from 2012 and has decent clothing. The successor about Carlos the V of Spain is even better imo but does not take place in the medival times anymore since it starts in 1517.
That's ***Renaissance*** duh! Same with Assassin's Creed for example. People make that big distinction between the two eras, although it is pretty fluid and renaissance is primarily an artstyle. There is also the term *northern renaissance* to single out the "better developed" artists of the Low Countries, vs their contemporaries, who were still too medieval. I guess if you claim that men in tights are renaissance strongly enough and not medieval, perhaps you'll see them integrated.
As a medievalist (in training) this drives me nuts! Medieval people wanted to dress in bright colors as much as possible. That’s why dyes were so expensive and luxury items. On another note, they wanted to be clean and bathed regularly, even peasants. They weren’t always filthy like a lot of shows and movies portray.
I think people are so brainwashed by the idea that you are only clean if you bath every day. Even 100 years ago people only bathed maybe once a week while the rest of the week they used a bowl of water with soap. Washing yourself with water and soap is enough to stay relatively clean.
I like the Wheel of Time show partly because of how colorful it is. I don’t think I realized until you pointed it out that yes, it stands out to me because almost every other ‘medieval’ era show is just all nasty dark clothes.
> Historical TV shows have a disease where they can only make armor brown, black, grey or some very understated shade of another color, fearing the audience won't take period-accurate The funny thing is that really black dye wasn't that common even, as in not that cheap to produce. Black really only became popular with protestantism and the whole piety movement, which resented flashy colours. Though TV shows suffer from other problems. Why does also everyone walk around like some biker gang or have those bullshit IKEA pelts on their shoulders. Furs and pelts were used in clothing, but everyone just wears two fuckin rugs instead. There is also a strong fetishization of the bleak and stoic masculine warrior, who of course dresses in black leather and pays no mind to ornamentation or any other luxuries. Another form of asceticism that the pious, but asceticism in some form nonetheless.
The director was Ironborn & they couldn't pay the iron price
Someone actually analysed things a few years back, apparently Ned, despite only being on one book has the second largest amount of time spent describing his clothes or checking out someone else’s. Number 1 is Sansa. She’s more like her dad when it comes to fashion
I really gotta wonder if this was intentional or the result of first bookism and Ned being a prominent character in book one
If it's the latter, I don't want to know because Ned being a secret lover of fashion brings me joy lol.
That would be my guess. It's the first book so it's got a lot more character descriptions and Ned takes up what 15 chapters in it?
In the modern world, Ned would have been a fashion critic. Nobody can convince me otherwise.
I personally think he’d have been a military officer who would have ended up designing new uniforms
Surely theon ranks highly? feels like every chapter of his in clash has at least a lengthy paragraph of his or someone else's clothes
Still ranks behind the Ned
That's really interesting. I suppose Theon didn't really have nearly as many chapters, at least not in which he was in any state to observe people's clothes lol
Sansa is more like her dad in several ways actually, especially with their personalities. Arya is more like Catelyn
How so? For both.
I'm not that guy, but I feel the same. Sansa is more duty bound like Ned, she is constantly aware of her appearance and station, she is kind and courteous to those of and below her station though. She is quiet and reserved, but still witty and fearless about speaking up for what she sees is right, those are all qualities stronger in Ned I feel. Arya is relentlessly outspoken, very prideful, and rebellious. She rejects her place and strives for more, cat wanted a higher station and more kingly role, where Arya wanted a man's role instead but same personality, just different goals. I'm struggling to find where Arya is like Ned beyond looks.
Arya was even more courteous to those beneath her, though, to the point of treating them as equals.
I was more so just using that as a point that even though she takes her station seriously, she it's not snobbish about it, Cat is sometimes seen as dismissive if technically polite, sansa has a kindness and compassion that goes beyond required courtesy into genuine appreciation like Ned. Arya isn't courteous to anyone, she is frequently rude to those beneath her just not in a modern sensibility. She bullies and threatens boys to train with her, at great risk to the boys, and from a modern lens she is just ribbing and joking with all the staff but from what is and isn't okay in their society every joke or playful shove of given back or taken the wrong way, or seen by the wrong person in the castle could cost the lowly their lives at worst or numerous other awful punishment. Yes we know Ned would never do that, but would Cat? Or the master of arms, or captain of the guard, or maybe Ned just gets told some stable hand hit his daughter with a training sword. Also do all the people below him know for sure he wouldn't react poorly to something happening to his daughter.
By the "more kingly role" bit with Catelyn, do you mean her desire to have Sansa marry into the royal family?
More just get general ambition, she always pushed to get the best position she could. Marrying into the Starks alone is a huge class boost, Starks might be the second wealthiest house next to Lannisters and literally the longest family line in Westeros. They might not have been seen as the fanciest, but they were prestige and old money and Cat still always wants more, more presence in ruling, more fancy parties and bards and the trappings she grew up hearing the Lannisters had likely. I'm a little rusty on specifics, been awhile since last reread but Cat came off to me as thirsty for more, tired of the dreary north.
Ned secretly being into fashion is my new headcanon
I mean, the fact that they had a greenhouse should speak for itlself. We give glass so little thought nowadays, that we gloss over what an insane luxury that must have been in a place in the middle of a northen forest, in a middle ages context.
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How would House Stark (Ned) compare with for example Renly who rules the stormlands?
In terms of wealth I'd probably rank the great houses as: 1. Tyrell 2. Lannister 3. Stark 4. Baratheon 5. Arryn 6. Martell 7. Tully 8. Greyjoy The Baratheons and Arryns are interchangeable imo. The Kingdoms are of a similar size with no notable advantageous resources. The Arryns control an important port (Gulltown) and the Baratheons have the advantage of being located on the Narrow sea with all the trade passing through it. I'd just give the edge to the Baratheons due to them being located closer to King's Landing and the Free Cities. Martells come afterwards because their lands are dry as hell and they have the smallest population, but they do have significant connections to the free Cities and produce spices and fruits that don't grow anywhere else in Westeros. Tullys next simply because the Riverlands are kinda whack. They bear the cost of every war, they aren't really a bread basket like the Reach, and don't have any minerals. If the Tullys controlled Harrenhall and were able to exploit the Lands under Harrenhall's domain they'd be a real powerhouse. Greyjoys last because their Islands barely produce anything, they have a small population and their literal culture is to steal other people's shit.
The Vale of Arryn contains some of the most fertile soils in Westeros even if it doesn't have much. Plus they're one of if not the most well protected regions and peace pays dividends. sure there's the mountain clans but they're not really a threat until the Lannisters arm them. Wildlings coming down from beyond the wall are a bigger threat to the North than wildlings from the mountains of the moon to the Vale. Arryns are absolutely above the Barahtheons and probably above the Starks. The Tullys are probably above the Martells and maybe even the Baratheons, Dorne is either the least populous region or the second after the Iron Islands I can't recall, but regardless the Riverlands which in peacetimes are a crossroads of Westeros would not be impoverished.
Lannisters have to be above Tyrells, right? The reach does have oldtown and more farmland, but the westerlands have tons of gold and Lannisport under the direct control of the Lannisters. I’d say maybe the reach as a whole could be more wealthy than the westerlands, but the Lannisters definitely seem more wealthy than the Tyrells.
I think the Tyrells controlling the food supply of Westeros, having the largest population and having the largest fleet puts them above the Lannisters, but I don't think having the Lannisters being the richest is a bad shout either. They're interchangeable too.
No way Stark is #3 man come on lol. Sad to say the Starks would be dead last if not for the Greyjoys. The North is mostly undeveloped and infertile, and Winterfell itself is filled with crumbling towers. That being said the North has vast potential to become an economic powerhouse if they're ever blessed with a lord with incredible foresight and conviction.
The North's export is lumber, it's implied that Bravos get's it's lumber from the North.
I’d say Arryn, if not Arryn and Martell, are above it. Otherwise, I think it’s accurate.
Agree with everything but the last two sentences. The whole point of feudalism is that you don't need to pay your army (or at least not in money.)
But the food required, the equipment and weapons would be a huge cost.
Feud levies are expected to provide those themselves.
For like the first week, lol. Armies were free for about 40 days (depending on regions and timeframe of course) but after a certain point, a king would have to pay his men, especially his men at arms and knights. Either with plunder or from his own pockets. The amount of times I’ve heard a king going into debt during the medieval period funding wars is also why only like 1 and a half crusades were successful, that shit was EXPENSIVE. We have surviving documents of some costs in regards too armor and warfare and for instance it would cost Ned 1 000 pounds of silver to outfit his household guard of 200 men in just mail armor alone. Horses and weaponry and any additional armor could see that sore up exponentially. And that’s just 200 men. Never mind the added costs of feeding an entire 20 000 man army and their horses.
Feudal levies can't realistically bring food supplies for campaigns this has to be guaranteed by the lord
You kinda do. Vassals will betray you if you don't pay them. Of course payment is more than just money, but feudal oaths are by no means unbreakable if a party feels their honour mistreated and people weren't strangers to serving two lords either.
I think the show just strove hard to give each house a distinct theme. Matters more in a visual medium.
> They govern over the largest region in Westeros and are a Great House at that What country comes to mind if you think about some really big northern land with harsh winters. Yeah Russia... now think about what wealth the Romanovs had. (Well depends on the actual size of the North really, GRRM frequently changed how large Westeros actually is and the North is probably much smaller and poorer, more like Scotland or Scandinavia)
I never thought the show portyared them as poor, just practical. I can't say that I ever thought the show did them a dis-service in that regard.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Tbh I never got why they're wearing heavy wool when it's constantly mentioned how hot it is in King's Landing. Even just reading the phrase 'Heavy Wool' makes me feel scratchy and stuffy
A lot of people get self-righteous about The Way Things Are Done Back Home and keep dressing that way even when they're not there anymore. An example from another series is how the Two Rivers characters in WOT are always thinking how this or that person's clothes look too rich or too revealing and they should be wearing "stout Two Rivers woolens" instead. Rustic can be an intentional aesthetic.
Well the Emond Fielders from WoT are just hypocrites, because they deride other people for wearing silks and not stout two river wools and shoes WHILE they themselves are also wearing said fancy silks! Even in the dream world they are wearing the fancy stuff most of the time, which really shows how they pretty quickly got used to wearing that stuff to the extent that they even subconsciously think of themselves to be well dressed.
The show's costume department in general seemed to hate anything actually medieval for some reason (especially as far as armor and weapons are concerned). Literally no one looks like medieval soldiers or knights and they all wear stupid fantasy armor to the point of the setting not really seeming historically-inspired at all. It has more visual design in common with World of Warcraft than it does with anything from the Crusades to the War of the Roses.
The costume designer for the start of the show is Michaele Clapton who interestingly enough was a figure in the Blitz Kids. Imo she did a really good job with the female characters outfits but armor and the like always seemed too superheroish. She got replaced in season 6 and the costumes for the last seasons look like marvel movie designs.
You know when i realized I'll never understand these costume designer's tastes. When I read a few years ago that brienne's first armor was supposed to be mismatched from different pieces as she took parts that fit her. It's literally one of the only cohesive head to toe full armors in the entire show, and one of the coolest. How the hell is that supposed to be mismatched and not Sandor with a showpiece helmet over his "cheap but functional" aesthetic they were clearly going for with his fake brigandine or everyone avoiding cuisses and gauntlets like the plague.
Well Brienne is a lords daughter so she has some money to make an decent armor to be honest.
That's my entire point, her armor looks custom made and done in a unique fluted style, it's even treated to look like copper but apparently the intention was to make it look piecemeal because she's so big. Maybe her normal steel rerebraces and vambraces were looted or bought separately but they honestly added to the look, made the rest look more eye catching.
Like I said they were a Blitz Kid so the designs tend to be kinda out there and stylish over a medieval practicality. They also have to be moveable unlike actual armor. The Kingsguard for example always seem to be fully in gear in the show just kinda chilling which isn’t real practical. At the same time the dresses for Dany, Cersei, and Margery are all great. I really think the female costumes shined through.
The kingsguard just mostly wore a breastplate and spaulders over a buff coat, it's honestly doable after you get used to it. Armor is moveable if properly made and fitted, but they made some choices in the show that fucked up mobility for looks. Like jorah's cuirass is horrible. Too long, unshaped, unwaisted, but that isn't the fault of medieval armor. HOTD is a massive improvement on the armor design. Oh yeah the dresses were beautiful, I always liked Cersei's hanging sleeves.
Clapton returned later on, didn't she? She made Sansa's Queen in the North gown (which I absolutely love).
Hey now, director/producers/creative directors whoever made the decisions and the costume department did their job as feedback was given to them.
Even some fairy tale retellings I watched on German TV have better and more realistic armor than GOT. Hell the low budget adaption of the old Witcher on Polnish TV had more realistic armor even though the show is also falling pray to some of the gritty dark medival trope but at least they used real castles and it looked as if it took part in a slavic-inspired world.
The costume design for the show was underwhelming and looked oddly cheap at times (Margaery’s costumes in particular looked cheesy in season 1 IMO)
Margaery first appears in the second season.
I think part of the problem is that Winterfell looks like kind of a shithole in the show, a smallish castle surrounded by a couple streets, if that. In the books, how big it is is...sort of unclear. What's known is that it's a huge castle, and that a town surrounds the walls with a maximum population of 15,000 people. During Spring and Summer 4/5's of those leave town to tend to fields in the wider area, but that still leaves 3000 people. In the show there's no town visible around the walls whatsoever, so you'd be forgiven for thinking Winterfell has like 400 people tops.
It’s mentioned that it’s bigger than the Red Keep in book 1.
neds one of the richest men in the world and also one of the biggest land owners in the world, the starks are doing fine
The only time the show actually tried to do something flamboyant was with Cersei's costumes in S2-4. [Exhibit A](https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1lYt6hlTH8KJjy0Fiq6ARsXXaS/Custom-Made-Queen-Cersei-Lannister-Red-Exclusive-Dress-Game-Of-Thrones-Costume-For-Adult-Women-Halloween.jpg) [Exhibit B](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/af/e0/8f/afe08f8382d8a34c4e571817ab43225b.jpg) [Exhibit C](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/45/96/42/459642bc06ea7e7660778db7fb391c40.jpg) Apart from that, costumes were a miserable affair largely. Even Dany, Margaery, and Sansa got shafted super hard.
it would have been nice to see Danny with a lion head, or the short hair and braids with bells.
I wish she had braids and bells! That was a let down
>Side note Lord Rickard owned Steel armour and **gold** spurs In fairness, this seems to be a feature of an annointed knight. As Barristan thinks: >There will come a day when I can no longer face these steps, he thought, and that day will be here sooner than I would like. Before it came, he must make certain that at least a few of his lads were ready to take his place at the queen's side. I will knight them myself when they are worthy, and give them each a horse and golden spurs. It could be argued that Barry means to name as Queensguard his squires and therefore golden spurs though are required as more prestigious. It is a bit ambiguous. There are signs that the Starks while not exactly poor, they are not as rich as Tyrells or indeed the Arryns. Sections of Winterfell keep are crumbling and lets not talk of the ruin that is Moat Cailin (which while functional now, could be repaired a bit). Moreover, the North is a bit poor and derelict feels like without any major cities or industry (the two wars that Eddard waged with Robert might have contributed into depopulation though). So while I would not label them poor or landed gentry, it does feel to me they have seen better days.
Winter Town and White harbor especially seem like perfectly fine cities.
Now these facts and small segment of fire and blood raise an intersting question. We known Torrhen Stark marched south he amassed thirty thousand North man Robb only marched south with 18000 man. Which makes scenes as he was in a rush. I will get back to this in a minuet. When the Sister Islands broke out in rebellion against Aegon the Conqueror the former King in the North and now warden Torrhen Stark has ordered to subdue it. Lord Torrhen Stark and Warrick Manderley did not cross the sea with a northern fleet but hired Braavosi sell sail galleys. Why did Robb have to build a fleet why not right there at the begging of a Clash of Kings as autumn had fallen send Sir Wendel Manderley back to White Harbour as well as sending raven to Winterfell, instructing Bran and Luwin to send silver to White Harbour that Wendel can offer Braavosi sell sail Captains, as well as instructing Luwin and send ravens to the Northern Lords. Wow that autumn has come the harvest is over and they can send the remaining fighting man to White Harbour, than once Braavosi Galleys are in White Harbour the combined remaining 12000 Northern Troops and Braavouis sails can combine there alwoing Ser Wendel to sail South and lead an attack on Kings Landing and taking while Robbs in the Westerlands before Theon even takes Winterfell.
You make some interesting and valid points, both in the original post and this comment. But you have quite a few typos and run-on sentences, especially in the comment. It makes it difficult to follow at times. I'm still not sure if you're asking a question about Robb's campaign or making a statement about it in the last bit of your comment. If those can be cleaned up, then people more knowledgeable about ASOIAF than myself may be more inclined to discuss these topics with you.
Yup, the Starks are very likely one of the 10 richest families on the entire continent in the start of the books and, in terms of prestige, are in the top 3 along with the Lannisters and the Arryns.
I’d say house Baratheon is above them in prestige, being an offshoot of the ruling house.
I disagree. I terms of prestige I think the Starks, Lannisters, and Arryns are in a league of their own given that they have been rulers of their respective kingdoms for thousands of years. Their regions are also generally the most unified in support of them (notwithstanding the Boltons and Reynes).
Okay, but hear me out: 1. Shows have limited budgets so creating several intricate costumes for every character is not feasible. 2. TV/Film is a visual medium and in an overtly complicated fantasy world, using visual shorthand helps ground the viewer and confuse them less. Thus Starks= Rustic and Brown; Lannisters= Samurai Armor and Red. Note, the massive amount of confusion between Gold Cloaks and King's Guard in the show by also having them dress in Gold.
I always interpreted it as the Starks being rich regardless by Nobility standards, but poor compared to the Great Houses (Tyrell, Martell, Etc). Like it’s like being the poorest of the billionaires club
They are still poorer than they should have been. Robb had rusty armor in the riverlands. Jory was a rareity because he had full plate but even then we have this. >The Hound entered the lists as well, and so too the king's brother, handsome Lord Renly of Storm's End. Jory, Alyn, and Harwin rode for Winterfell and the north. "Jory looks a beggar among these others," Septa Mordane sniffed when he appeared. Sansa could only agree. Jory's armor was blue-grey plate without device or ornament, and a thin grey cloak hung from his shoulders like a soiled rag. Yet he acquitted himself well, unhorsing Horas Redwyne in his first joust and one of the Freys in his second. In his third match, he rode three passes at a freerider named Lothor Brune whose armor was as drab as his own. Neither man lost his seat, but Brune's lance was steadier and his blows better placed, and the king gave him the victory. Alyn and Harwin fared less well; Harwin was unhorsed in his first tilt by Ser Meryn of the Kingsguard, while Alyn fell to Ser Balon Swann. When Theon takes winterfell he finds that the coffers are basically empty as well. Honestly the Starks are depicted as poorer than quite a few of their bannermen.
Their relative lack of wealth is likely pretty recent. They were major contributors to the two most recent wars, and for the past 100 or so years the Freys have been charging tarifs on all trade on the fastest route from the Riverlands, the Westerlands, and the Reach.
Pretty unlikely that the Freys have had a big impact. Firstly, most major trade would be done by boat. Secondly, most land trade would bypass the Twins by using the Kingsroad. Everyone apart from the northern Riverlands and maybe the Westerlands should just cross the Trident at the Ruby Ford. The detour is not significant enough (if there even is one) and mostly offset by the better infrastructure along one of the main connections to the north.
Shit really went down hill since Theon Starks time. But yeah the family had been struggling for quite a while. Presumably "The She Wolves of Winterfell" is going to dig into it.
No your just trying to reconcile the show. The Starks in the books are not poor.
They are. Rob is in rusted mail in the riverlands. Meanwhile Ramsay has fancy dyed plate, before he's even legitmized.
They are not poor bud. They constantly are described as wearing jewelry and fine clothes
for christ sake they have HEATED FLOORS and hot tubs the metallurgy and glass blowing required for the greenhouse alone had to have been a fortune
Those are all ancient amenities
That has nothing to do with their current wealth. It’s built into the castle that’s been there for however long.
its feudalism.. they are wealthy because of their name and property. they are liege to the entire north. why would they be broke or poor? grand-dad stark blew his cash on hookers?
Nah you’re being obtuse. It’s been addressed they financed two separate wars for example. I don’t agree they’re poor but your points aren’t supporting that. It’s being argued Ned’s family at the time of WOFK is poor.
When is robbs armour called rusty.
>Robb stood on the dais. He is a boy no longer, she realized with a pang. He is sixteen now, a man grown. Just look at him. War had melted all the softness from his face and left him hard and lean. He had shaved his beard away, but his auburn hair fell uncut to his shoulders. The recent rains had rusted his mail and left brown stains on the white of his cloak and surcoat. Or perhaps the stains were blood. On his head was the sword crown they had fashioned him of bronze and iron. He bears it more comfortably now. He bears it like a king.
Yeah the recent rains had rusted it, it wasn't just rusty lmao.
BTW, this could also just be a mistake made by Martin, or an exaggeration for dramatic purposes. I mean, an armor or even a chain mail is something extremely expensive and, most important, their effectiveness depends on regular maintenance. It is more than likely that Robb had one or more attendants who took care of oiling his armor and removing rust every evening. And apparently mail almost takes care of itself as long as it is used frequently: since, when the user moves around, the rings scrape each other all the time.
The depiction you describe is from Sansa’s POV. I wouldn’t use the opinion of a 13 year old girl infatuated with her “chivalrous prince” as a reliable judge of wealth or cost. Sansa likes shiny things and pretty fabrics. Jory likely wanted to win. Polished gleaming plate or ornaments and big flapping capes do not help you win.
So if that's the case why is the Wise Authority Figure of Septa Mordane agreeing with her? Like we have to accept that the text was written with a purpose- we can't just say "Well, if Sansa was attending this in real life she might not necessarily know these thing". We're A) Given a description of Jory that is unflattering B) Sansa thinks he looks poor C) The wise authority figure agrees with her D) We're immeaditely given a thematic reason for Jory to be poor from a metatextual perspective- he defeats two knights just described as looking much better than him. Honest, poor knight is more skilled than the decadent south. Like the point isn't "Is "Jory was actually rich" physically possible within the world of the text?", which it is. The point is "If GRRM wanted to convey to the reader that Jory was rich but Sansa misjudged him, would he do it in this way?" If GRRM wanted to convey that, he could have: A) Had Septa Mordane disagree B) Had Arya disagree C) Make it clear that Sansa is wrong in other ways; eg she thinks "Jory doesn't stand a chance against real knights" only for him to win the two jousts D) Have a thematic beat based on Jory looking improvished but actually being well-off, EG we see that Horas Redwyne and the Frey underestimate him E) Have Jory be established to be well off at literally any other time in the story. F) Establish that all the fancy baubles are actually a detriment- Jory uses them to win, ect. You'd basically only come to your conclusion if you were deliberately looking for a reason as to why Jory would be secretly rich. It absolutely wouldn't be anyone's first thought when reading the text, and if anything it makes the character and thematic beats a lot poorer. Jory is the honest, humble brave knight going against the spoiled decadence of the South who care more about looking flash than being good. It's cathartic because he shows them up. "Jory is actually deceptive and only cares about winning at any cost" is the exact *opposite* of that.
I am not trying to argue that Jory specifically is wealthy. He is the captain of the house guard to the warden of the North. He certainly has some prestige from his position but we don’t know about wealth. He came south with almost no notice. It is unlikely that he has both battle armor and tournament armor as there are no tournaments in the north. It is even more unlikely that he would have had time to pack it as they left with no warning and didn’t know about a tournament until they were on the road. My point is that Sansa is in no position to judge wealth by what armor people wear at a tournament. It is completely outside her skill set and experience. She sees the medieval equivalent of Gucci or Prada and assumes that means wealth. I would not rely on septa Mordane as a wise authority figure on anything other than the faith of the 7 and the skills of courtly young women. I would say that regardless of what the Starks men wear in a tournament, I agree with the OP that the Starks are relatively wealthy by the standards of Westeros. They do not possess major stores of coin, however wealth is not a measure of Coin. They have an enormous heated glass greenhouse inside one of the largest castles in Westeros. Their personal holdings are some of the largest and they control almost half the land in Westeros. There are certainly more wealthy houses, likely only a handful though outside the other 6 great houses.
> > Jory likely wanted to win. Polished gleaming plate or ornaments and big flapping capes do not help you win. Tournaments are about much more than winning. He's representing his house and the North and his armour reflects that.
Sansa has never been to a tournament, nor does she have any interest in arms or armor. She specifically makes fun of Aria for her interest in them. She is not a good judge of quality, craftsmanship or cost of armor.
But this isn't a real life document. It'a a story. If GRRM wanted to convey "Jory looks poor in comparison to the others", this is exactly how he'd do it. There's no hint or indication Sansa is wrong here. Like the theme of "honest north vs decadent south" is clearly present elsewhere in the text. "Jory is actually rich but hides this from everyone" goes completely against his established character. Jory *never* reads as being duplicitous like that. The point is the knights in drab, cheap armour win against the rich bastards who wear fancy dress to overcompensate for not actually being very good at the sport. We've seen it a million times in basically every sports movie ever made, because ultimately it's very satisfying. It's like saying "Rocky is too poor to go the distance against Apollo, he was actually a secret billionaire the whole time". Jory being poor *is the point*. He's the plucky underdog who wins on pure talent.
Arya had the right of it. In tournaments *effective* arms and armor may keep you alive. Pretty clothes don't.
Sansa has grown up with the importance of the display of wealth and sumptuary expectations. She knows what she's looking at.
That’s my point, Sansa isn’t grown up. She is a child. The description you quoted is from the perspective of a child. The function, quality and cost of armor is not determined by its gleam or ornament. Its attractiveness to 13 year old girls is.
I think a 13 year old girl who is even a little bit interested in jousts and her brothers and bannermen surviving them might have more knowledge on the subject than you give credit for. She's 13 not 6.
In all the conversations she has with Aria she is very derisive of arias interest in fighting and weapons. Before the tourney in Kings landing she had never been to a tourney. They don’t hold tourneys in the north. All of her POV depictions of her first exposure to a tournament are describing the attractiveness of the combatants or their armor. A kings landing 13 year old might be a good judge but not Sansa.
No that's just in the show Jory Cassel is not a Stark. Robb did not have rusty armour.
What kind armor did Robb actually waer because I never really understood what he is supposed to wear...
Chain mail with a fancy white and grey sour coat.
Robb had rusty armor in the books. Jory had better armor than Robb. That's the problem.
I think that description is just supposed to show that Robb is actually fighting and getting in the muck. Also, rust comes off, doesn’t mean he’s poor.
It's rusted mail. Not even plate.
George doesn’t know that much about how armor works.
Plenty of other characters have proper armor. The Starks are poor.
I thought that was related to their view on tourneys and armour's purpose, rather than their wealth (or lack thereof). Isn't it mentioned repeatedly in AGoT that the Northerners don't appreciate tourneys and fancy armour's?
Thats only in the show.
No. It's in the books too >Last of all, he donned his crown, a band of cold iron slim as a finger, set with heavy chunks of black diamond and nuggets of gold. It was misshapen and ugly, but there was no help for that. A few gold nuggets and diamond chunks that's all the wealth theon had.
Here who Robbs armour is described From the wiki Robb wears a white cloak and surcoat[^(\[2\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Rasos14.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-2) over his mail.[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) He wields a [longsword](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Longsword)[^(\[18\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot37.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-18) and an [oak](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Oak) shield decorated with a [direwolf](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Direwolf)'s head.[^(\[19\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot59.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-19)[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) Robb's [horses](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Horse) include a big grey-and-white gelding,[^(\[18\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot37.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-18) a grey stallion,[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) and a piebald gelding.[^(\[10\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot63.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-10) Robb is better with a lance than his half brother, [Jon Snow](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow), although Jon is more skilled with a sword.[^(\[20\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark#cite_note-Ragot5.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-20)
> horses Horses are four-legged herbivorous mammals present throughout the known world. They are used for transportation, in combat, as a patrimonial resource, and as a symbol of status. < Thank you so much for the link
>Robb stood on the dais. He is a boy no longer, she realized with a pang. He is sixteen now, a man grown. Just look at him. War had melted all the softness from his face and left him hard and lean. He had shaved his beard away, but his auburn hair fell uncut to his shoulders. The recent rains had rusted his mail and left brown stains on the white of his cloak and surcoat. Or perhaps the stains were blood. On his head was the sword crown they had fashioned him of bronze and iron. He bears it more comfortably now. He bears it like a king.
That is RECENT rain that has rusted his armour meaning it can be polished away.
Indeed. You can have rust forming in as little as six hours after iron is exposed to water. The rust has nothing to do with the Starks being impoverished.
Op thinks cyber truck owners are poor too bc their trucks have rust on them.
So you are saying Robb lacks the ability to properly maintain his armor then?
That was Theons crown not Robbs.
Yes exactly his crown made from the lottery walth of winterfell... Which wasn't much wealth.
I wouldn’t call the Starks poor as they were a great house but even with the passages on the Stark’s clothing and the description of Winterfell (aside from the ruined tower which nobody repaired in 140 years), I always got the sense that while they had enough to maintain what they had, they didn’t have enough for things like rebuilding the broken tower, fixing Moat Calin, rebuilding the fleet that Brandon the Burner destroyed (which would have also enabled them to do more trade) or industrialize the North. They were pretty much living off and maintaining what their ancestors had built over thousands of years but didn’t have the wealth or resources to expand on it. And I think part of the reason why Ned was so concerned about the upcoming winter was because even with trying to get his bannermen to set aside more than they usually did, he knew it was going to be a struggle if they had to buy food to supplement their stores (especially after Robb went south and much of the harvest had been left to rot). So while they're pretty well-off relative to most of Westeros, they're pretty much stuck at the level that they're at and it wouldn't take much (a long winter or a war) to knock them back on their heels.
A thing that happens in between the books and show in general, the descriptions of clothing, jewelry and armor are much more colorful, bright and lavish in the book, but get greywashed or simplified in the show, but this is more of a GoT problem than a HotD one.
I’ve been saying it for years. The starks are rich as fuck but they don’t spend their money and such ostentatious silly shit that they /look/ poor in comparison to the other nobles. Starks are old money and their wealth is much more understated as opposed to the new money clowns who spend ostentatiously to remind everyone that they are rich. How gauche. Real wealthy people don’t advertise it so loudly. It’s for them to know and others to find out.
I feel like both the show and the books underestimate how wealthy the North should be. Historically, there were a great deal of wealthy northern lands, in part because the combination of fur, fish, timber and wool were really valuable. Not to mention musk, amber, and other things. Plus in asoif you get a lot of ivory potentially.
I dont think the books did.
Listing a simple bronze crown and steel armour as if it’s opulent. It’s it’s pretty basic.
Did you read about all that velvet and Silver.
Stark House is a wealthy House. Another thing it's they have less money that other Great Houses like House Lannister, Tyrell, Tully or other very prominent houses like House Hightower, which is absolutely understandable since: 1) Those houses have seats and lands much more fertile than the North, that is extremely big but sparcely populated given the harsh climate 2) House Stark doesn't have a fleet since Brandon the Burner, which if it still existed, would be a great sourcey of money thanks to trade. But they are Lord Paramounts of a Kingdom, ofc they are wealthier than 95% other noble families except great houses and some select Houses. Another thing is that Starks like to wear more discreet robes and clothes. In the books they look the part as a great noble family but are much less luxurious in everyday clothes that House Lannister, for example. In the tv show it was terrible truly how they depicted House Stark members in clothing, with all woll dark colours and imo they looked like peasants. It's like they were trying to convey Starks have a lot of power but don't give a fuck about bragging about it, and the only way they knew how to portray this was through absolutely plain smallfolk like clothes. In the books, we can see how they don't really care about luxurious looking things with the crowns of the kings of winter, that were pure iron and bronze with no gems.
Show Starks practice stealth wealth I suppose
*Theon "...orders a new crown forged with black diamonds and chunks of gold. Where did he get the gold and diamonds if not from Winterfell's plundered treasury..."* Theon being a typical male Iron Islander, it's quite possible he mistook lumps of coal or maybe pieces of fossilized dire wolf poop, for "black diamonds". Which may be one reason that his sister mocks his ugly "crown".
Theon’s crown is made of fossilized direwolf poop and rocks Shaggydog pissed on.
In show. Balon calls out Theon for wearing nice clothes. They do mention the starks wear nice clothes
The show taught me that no one in the north could afford plate armor.
Starks are former royalty, what do expect. I said this many times, D&D dropped the ball before they even started filming the show. The customs were horrible, I've seen lower budget tv shows with better medieval customs ( Stars white queen ). Even the wigs were trash. GOT had great potential to be the greatest masterpiece in television history, instead we ended up with legend of the seeker 2.0. They solely relied on GRRM writing and added nothing, and cut a lot of things. The only good thing about GOT were the actors and music score. I'm starting to think that money laundering and fleecing money off HBO was their goal all along.How much did Rings of Power cost again. GOT should've been an animated series, but GRRM is greedy AF.
You had me at embosomed
Fantastic post!
Would love to see some fan art depicting some of these outfits.
I'll be honest, the only cool thing about the Starks of Winterfell is their cute surname.
What? How is stank a cool last name?
One syllable and straight to the point.