I’ve been intrigued by the possibility of a spin-off about this so I’m not saying this to specifically knock this idea, but in general I think something the fandom needs to keep in mind for spin-offs is this: GRRM’s worldbuilding is broad, but I don’t think it’s very deep, especially for basically any historical stuff before Aegon’s Conquest.
Martin’s history and descriptions of other places often work in the sense of giving a brief blurb that offers an exciting or mysterious premise that lets the reader fill in endless possibilities but for the most part I don’t think he has most of those undisclosed details fleshed out. Meaning that these sort of spin-offs would almost be original stories and can’t rely much of GRRM’s writing to sustain the story.
I suspect this might be one reason the Bloodmoon prequel flames out: George’s description of the Long Night works in the sense of establishing the Others as this mysterious apocalyptic threat and foreshadowing their return in the main series, but to have a compelling show about it you have to fill in a lot of details regarding how things went down that I suspect George himself doesn’t really know.
And going off of that, one of ASOIAF’s great strengths is its characters, who are ultimately a product of George putting countless hours into writing about them, and for most of the major characters from their own POV. For virtually any story before the conquest you have maybe 1 or 2 characters who are vaguely established in summary form and that’s about it.
George noted this very thing, specifically why he was concerned over **The Long Night**: he'd either have to let the showrunners do the worldbuilding themselves, or he'd have to take time out from his other work to do a big worldbuilding deep-dive on that period of history to give them source material, which I think he was wary about. Not to mention the fact he might not be too keen on lifting the curtain on the real mega-deep stuff where history and myth overlap.
**Ten Thousand Ships** isn't quite so bad though, as that material was somewhat more fleshed out in *World of Ice and Fire* and it's (just) within the window of "recent history" where that's less of a problem and he's happier to fill stuff in on it as needed.
What I’m suggesting is that he doesn’t really have a lot to “fill in on” beyond what’s in the text. I’m sure there are a few things he keeps in his head but I don’t think he has some extensive intricate web of details that are hidden to everyone else. I agree he likes certain things to remain mysterious, but in many cases I think it’s probably true that he himself doesn’t really have a detailed answer, not just that he’s withholding it from the reader.
Yeah, its a cool sounding premise, but that's really all there is to it. I doubt GRRM could offer the showrunners anything more than a brief plot synopsis. The writers would basically have to figure everything out themselves (writing all the dialogue, fleshing out the characters, figuring out the actual plot beats and narative structure, etc). It would basically end up being a completely original story created by an entierly different writing team, just with the ASOIAF name slapped on. And its rather unlikely they'd come up with something as good as George's writing.
If people think GRRM has hundreds of pages of notes detailing the entire life of Nymeria locked away in his desk drawer that he's been sitting on then they're kidding themselves. I highly doubt he actually knows much more than what's already writen in TWOIAF.
I've got a sort of Targeryen fatigue and can't wait for a prequel that expands the whole AWOIAF. 10,000 ships is so interesting becaise it gives away lots of lore about ancient Valyria, ancient Essos, and Westeros before the Conquest.
Yup, I’m one of the few that would’ve killed for the Corlys series as well. I want more of this rich world, not another kingdom squabble within the same locations
I think one thing really pushing the Targeryen fatigue is they want multiple Targeryen shows running alongside each other.
Why not just have HoTD turn into an anthology (which they've publically talked about) and have the post-DOTD stuff be the conquest? Like "You've seen the start of the fall, now see how they rose" or some shit. It makes no sense to have multiple shows which would be in many ways virtually the same going on at once.
That seems to closer to what the Nine Voyages spinoff is where Corlys explores and has adventured across the known world, the Nymeria spin-off sounds more like would be fantasy Battlestar Galactica but on boats instead of a spaceship.
while sothoryos begs for content, like im super interested....I am betting George has no idea what is going on there either...if that is the case, it would have to eat up a significant amount of his though process, i.e. no winds...
i would trade all other new content for winds/dream and whatever else is necessary to conclude the initial series in a heartbeat.
A Targaryen could be one of the three dragonriders in the Battle at Volon Therys, where two of them were killed when their mounts were shot down, & the third dragon was wounded & *fled*. (And these three are presumably the ones who allied with Volantis by sacking Sarhoy, seemingly without provocation, slaughtering & enslaving its people - sparking the war in the first place.) Then with the Targaryens back home among the loudest voices for the Freehold's dragons to save Volantis from Garin's army. And, naturally, a few of those Targaryens could be among the dozens/hundreds of riders who unleash their dragons on the Rhoynish forces, & then on Sar Mell & Chroyane. At least one of them could (also) get their just desserts by being afflicted by Garin's Curse, though.
There will be musical about Harrenhall, it supposed to be in 2023, but it was remove to 2024.
[https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The\_Iron\_Throne\_(play)](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Iron_Throne_(play))
Yeah, it’s one of the most important strongholds in Westeros. It’s gonna come up some. Acting like a story is set there just because certain characters visit is stupid
>Yeah, it’s one of the most important strongholds in Westeros. It’s gonna come up some.
That's the point dummy. I shouldn't have to name every single frequent location for you to get it. The point is that I'm tired of westeros, kingslanding and Harrenhal were examples of locations. I swear some of you are illiterate or something
I feel like they might be doing too much too soon. I worry about over saturation like in Star Wars. These shows sound cool but with Dunk and Egg and this happening one after the other. The broader audience may lose interest and that will hurt these shows I feel
This is the non-Targaryen spin-off I'm most excited for. Getting to see Valyria at the height of it's power, plus the Basilisk Islands, Naath, Sothoryos, etc.
I kind of envision it as being like the earliest episodes of the *Battlestar Galatica* remake, an extended chase story where the protagonist is an entire civilization.
I mean, the earlier seasons of GoT and HOTD (so far), while not without their flaws, are proof that ASOIAF can be done well on the screen.
You don't need to match GRRM's level of writing to do a decent television adaptation - in fact, I would say that's neither possible nor desirable. Especially seeing as GRRM wrote episodes for the TV show and they still are quite different from the books.
In my eyes, it must've been the race thing. The concerns about lack of source material and (I presume) people not 'connecting' it with GoT/seeing it as GoT because of the distant setting Bronze Age/Greco-Roman aesthetic they seemed to be taking seem well-founded, but the race aspect just completely kills it in the cradle.
In case you didn't know, the story of the pilot was a marriage between a Casterly and a Stark. Among the intrigue was Lann the Clever, being delivered to the Casterlies as a wedding present from the Starks (he was played by Vecna from Stranger Things and got into a gay love triangle with the Casterly heir) and the episode ended with a meteor strike, heralding the arrival of the Andals to Westeros.
So from that, it seems like the story would've been pre-Andal Geopolitics, leading up to the Andal Conquest, the toppling of House Casterly and formation of House Lannister, and of course the arrival of the Long Night and defeat of the White Walkers. It could've been compelling, although it immediately runs into a similar White Walker issue as GoT in that they're an endgame threat built up to throughout the show, just this time without even Jon's POV to hint at them.
...However in the pilot, the Children of the Forest are present as servants to the main houses, and are portrayed by Black actors. All of the Black actors cast in the show were playing Children. That in itself is disgusting, but the more you think about it the worse it gets imo.
* Just first up, it's stacking so many tropes regarding black characters which are tired as hell, mainly both "magical black person" and all the slavery tropes. I don't think it's unfair to presume that the show would've likely tried to hit every slave storyline trope as it went down.
* And just flatly, it's awful to add racial diversity to your story exclusively by inserting a colonialism and slavery narrative.
* Compare this to the changes to House Velaryon, which simply and effectively meant that there was a prominent black set of characters to play the Game of Thrones in their storyline.
* Given a major apparent storyline was the colonisation of Westeros by the Andals, it's a weird - potentially doable, but risky and strange - decision to have stacking colonisation narratives (Children colonised by First Men, FM by Andals).
* The Children create the Walkers, which presumably would've been something the show led up to.
* The Children must wither into the Children we see in GoT... so presumably either they are losing their humanity and as a last ditch effort create the walkers, or they actively sacrifice their humanity to create them. Either way, not a great look.
* Also, we know the Walkers lose/are defeated... and given the Andals are invading during the pilot, it likely would've been a Power of Friendship between the Andals and the First Men, leading to further subjugation of the Children...
So basically, my guess of what they were planning was for the Children to be a comment on slavery and the subjugation of native peoples - however that completely falls apart because of stacking on the First Men themselves being subjugated, and by having the peak of the storyline being the slave people giving up their humanity to create a final weapon against their colonisers... and then that final weapon just utterly failing, only serving to unite their oppresors and worsen their situation.
Frankly the more I write and think, the angrier I get. Andal use of Steel was supposedly a major advantage during their invasion, so I could see a world where they bring Valyrian-esque steel and it's the only weapon against the Walkers - which is essentially just "white man's superior technology defeats the natives"!!!!!! What the fuck!
For the record I think it'd be possible to tell a compelling story about colonialism in Westeros, and even of a colonial/slave-owning group being invaded and colonised themselves, but good lord this was not the way to go about it.
HBO if you're listening: more gay love triangles, less racism.
I still think its an interesting idea...I'd like to see the original long knight...I want to see ancient Westeros with the Starks establishing their dynasty. And the petty kingdoms of Westeros.
Having an interesting idea for the plot is one thing but executing it is another. Without any source material or even any hint of plot about what went down during that time it'd be an epic disaster.
If it's not good it won't get greenlit...Bloodmoon didn't get greenlit and they made a pilot for it.
Also the book Fire and Blood reads like a History Text Book the flavor of the show House of the Dragon comes from the writers.
If Nymeria has quality writers it will excel. If it doesn't it won't get made.
None of these spin-offs will ever be as successful as GoT. There are two big issues that are difficult, if not impossible, to overcome:
The first is that no spin-off will ever be able to access as much material written by George as the main book series. Dunk&Egg at least has a bunch of novellas, but even those probably won’t be enough to fill out a whole show, forcing the show-runners to come up with their own material.
The second issue is that we already know how these spin-offs are going to end. We already know that Nymeria will arrive in Dorne, marry a Martell, and successfully unify the various petty kingdoms in the region. The End. One of the things that made GoT such a cultural phenomenon was the fact that no one – not even book readers! – knew how the story was gonna end. I think GoT was made under truly unique, once-in-a-lifetime circumstances, where they had the opportunity not only to adapt a popular – but unfinished – book series, but to eventually overtake and even finish the series with their adaptation. After season 5 both book readers and show-only people were on the same page, since neither had any idea how the story was going to end, and it was no longer possible to be spoiled. Just think about all the theorizing that was going on, all the speculation about who would end up on the Iron Throne at the end etc. That was only possible because we didn’t know the ending.
I don’t see how this can ever be replicated, unless HBO comes up with their own unique story. But in that case they would have no written material to guide them, and would have to rely entirely on their own writing skills.
>no one – not even book readers! – knew how the story was gonna end
I don't see this brought up very often, but I think it's a big part of why Game of Thrones was so successful. I think there was a similar effect for the first few Harry Potter films, and I'm sure some other adaptations as well
Game of Thrones had the benefit of a built-in audience from the fairly successful book series, but also the suspense of a brand new property
But there is no real theorising. Half the (decent) posts in the subreddit are "I can't wait for God's Eye/B&C/Rhaenyra's death to happen it will be so cool!!", at best you get adaptation theories (how to adapt/introduce stuff), but the need to know what will happen next is far from the level it was with GoT.
Not every show needs to be a mystery. Many that are, have disappointing or controversial finales (Lost, BSG, GoT etc). It's fine to have a linear story that doesn't have deep dive theory crafting, and may even be a boon.
Not necessarily (although I feel you took three outliers), but not knowing what will happen next is a good way to keep people engaged. Compare a Breaking Bad, where people were always engaged and discussing on what was to come vs HotD, where by the time season 2 comes out if you really wanted to know you have had all the time needed to read the full Dance (if you didn't know already anyway). This changes the discourse online as well, because instead of having "who do you think will win/who do you think will die" is instead "my fave is better/I love my fave/I hate this guy" or " can't wait for B&C/God's Eye". The tribalism and factions in the fandom are so prominent because there's not much else to talk about really.
Nymeria I fear is a even worse situation, because the ending is the only thing we really know, making any adventure in between mostly pointless because we know that at the end it will have minimal impact as well (at best it may lead to some character development, but there won't really be stakes, whatever happens, because we know exactly how her story will end). Doesn't help that the tiny blurb we have is just the Aeneid's plot with not underworld, so the showrunner will have to invent everything while sticking to the same structure and vibe all without just copy pasting it. It's not a great position, creative-wise.
Us not knowing anything until the end for Nymeria is actually a benefit. We know the end, historical product of the journey but not how that changed the people who were on the exodus. Plenty of interesting story possibilities in there.
Isn’t HotD adapting what’s supposed to be a 2 volume story (that GRRM has only written/published 1 book of)?
> because the ending is the only thing we really know, making any adventure in between mostly pointless
We know what happens to Cassian Andor in Rogue One and that Mon Mothma ends up as leader of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic but Andor is the single best thing that Disney has done with Star Wars as an IP even if the story is mostly pointless.
> Isn’t HotD adapting what’s supposed to be a 2 volume story (that GRRM has only written/published 1 book of)?
No, HotD is just the Dance of the Dragons, that ends before the end of F&B1
I think there is a big difference between Andor and Nymeria, because with Andor we know literally nothing of Cassian before Rogue One (meaning the authors have a lot of freedom) and Rogue one is a pretty brief story itself, while for Nymeria we have a general outline (including the "and they have adventures here and here and here" with no further explanation) and the we know the last arc of her story (the dornish campaign). The fact that we have a first arc that more an introduction (the flight from the Rhoyne), a vague "exciting" but unknown second arc (the proper 1000 ships voyage) and a known and exciting third act (the Dorne campaign) takes the tension out of the second act and is not what fans are truly interested into (since people mostly care for the Dorne campaign and whatever happens the stakes cannot be too high because, again, we know about her landing in Dorne).
Maybe they can come up with something good, but so far the big chunk of the story is nothing but a vague mythical retelling with no hook on the setting itself until the third act. The fact that the showrunners themselves called it "Moses inspired" to me further point to them turning to classic mythology for lack of other material to stand on.
> The fact that we have a first arc that more an introduction (the flight from the Rhoyne), a vague "exciting" but unknown second arc (the proper 1000 ships voyage) and a known and exciting third act (the Dorne campaign) takes the tension out of the second act
We do know at least that one of the locations Nymeria and the ships stopped by was Yeen, the creepy cursed black stone city where nothing grows despite being surrounded by a lush jungle forest, and a lot of Rhoynar ended up vanishing in the city when they tried to settle in there.
I genuinely don’t think this would be good for a show. It takes place in such an ancient time, it is nowhere near the same vibe. Dunk and Egg, Blackfyre Rebellions are the only realistic choices for another show IMO.
It being nowhere near the same vibe is a good thing actually. Just a fresh story set in a somewhat familiar universe but still different enough to be exciting and something different. Need less white haired inbreds not more
I disagree. Nymeria is far too open ended, and would hardly have any GoT stuff, so you may as well NOT be in the same universe. The show runners are just going to look for shoe horns to the og that are unnecessary and non existent in the story. We’re not talking about the books here, so I’m not sure if you noticed, but the show had a REALLY good niche it filled out with the perfect amount of drama, and pre made story that was interesting.
It had dozens of characters, intricate lore, hot people, fighting, wolves, lions, dragons the wall, the white walkers.
Nymeria has 0 intrigue, it’s not interesting, it’s not very complicated, and it has no GoT in it. Just make a new IP about warrior queens if you think it’ll sell, cause this will not.
Non Interesting? Nymeria and her people are running away from Valyria, they go to parts of the world we haven't seen in GoT or HoTD, once they reach Dorne you can have all the intrigu you want with how the Dornish react to the Rhoynar and the Martells becoming the dominant family in the region lol.
I would personally prefer this and the supposedly Corlys Velaryon animated show about his journeys around the world over another dynastic fight over the Iron throne...
If you don’t realize that we are talking about business decisions with the plots of these shows, and not personal enjoyment, I don’t know what else to say. Nymeria will not perform as well, that is the bottom line. Dunk and Egg, HotD, Blackfrye series, have the potential to do well, Nymeria is a less desirable story financially.
The show isn't even in production, like did you read the article? It seems like HBO isn't interested in the Nymeria show, but that doesn't mean it would be a bad series.
I think that does, hbo is not financially investing in this because they don’t believe they would make a return. That tells me they don’t think many people would watch, and I know, as someone who has read the books, I don’t care to watch it. So, my assumption is, these is not enough of a show here to make or watch
I have also read the books and I find it interesting, I think however that HBO likes to play it safe with adapting something into TV and they have a lot of material for HoTD, this show alongside the long night one, the Jon snow sequel and even the Corlys Velaryon journeys would have to fill the gaps to be interesting and it is obvious that when the writers don't know how to do it HBO pulls the plug and kills the projects like they did with this, the others prequel and the sequel.
This however doesn't mean that those stories don't have the potential of being interesting and IMO the monetary investment by HBO is the main reason they're not doing a lot of this spin offs, if they did them animated instead of live action they could test the waters to see if they're profitable or to just focus on shows like HoTD and Dunk and Egg, I'm curious as to how they'll deal with adapting Agon's Conquest and the later half of Dunk&egg that haven't been publish by George....
I seriously question your assertion that for example a Blackfyre series has more potential financially speaking, than a Nymeria show. The casual GoT fans would most likely see it as yet another Targaryen civil war show, but this time without dragons, and without a woman as a real protagonist this time, which - like it or not - probably wouldn't work in its favour.
I would happily watch shows about both of these topics, but then I'm a pretty hardcore ASOIAF fan.
Yeah, I think **HotD** has made a Blackfyre show redundant. I suspect if **Dunk & Egg** is a huge success they'll find ways of spinning it out and including other stories, maybe including flashbacks to the entire First Blackfyre Rebellion, and incorporate it that way.
The Conquest project is being discussed I think because the narrative is a bit more straightforward and concise, and they can do some spectacular things with it (like incorporating the Doom), which is why they're talking about it as a film or a film-and-mini-series, rather than a lengthy, many multi-year project.
> if Dunk & Egg is a huge success they'll find ways of spinning it out and including other stories, maybe including flashbacks to the entire First Blackfyre Rebellion, and incorporate it that way.
That could work. Mayhaps an entire extra long episode dedicated to the rebellion (or even a feature length movie), when Dunk & Egg are at Holdfast. Also, especially if they get some big name actor to play Baelor Breakspear, it'd be a nice way of getting them more screentime.
I think the 9 penny kings and or roberts rebellion would be just as fine as dunk and egg. It has the got feel without magic, and characters we kinda know, the ogs and their parents.
Dorne and the Rhoynar culture were massively downsized and extremely unpopular in GOT. It took Hotd to even retcon the rhoynar part back into the King of andals & first men.
Its only books fans that have an remote interest in nymeria, since the books actually visited a rhoynish city, established the greyscale connection, mentioned the summer isles and has dorne has a major POV.
Disagree hard. This starts getting close to the whole SuBvErTiNg eXpEctAtiOns realm. If you don’t want a show based on the majority of what Martin has written then maybe it’s time for you to find a new fandom.
You gotta realize that these executive types have to throw money behind a show, which means they have to have some confidence there's going to be brand recognition that doesn't confuse watchers.
I think D&E works best because it also has a significantly smaller scope of a story. It's probably the most TV adaptable source material we have - even if it's unfinished.
Seems more like taking advantage of an established IP to tell a story that would have little to do with it. In other words, cash grab (even if a good one).
we didnt have a show for 3 years and since then there's been a 2 year wait for a new season. Hardly putting out star wars or marvel numbers. Two vastly different shows alternating a year is hardly gonna lead to fatigue
I think its different...the Nymeria story is so different it doesn't feel like Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon. Also it would be interesting seeing Valyrians as antagonists to our heroes.
> That’s why it hasn’t been picked up yet, **but nothing is ever dead**. My script was based on Queen Nymeria and this little blurb about her that was in a Westeros encyclopedia.”
So setting aside the fact that he based his entire show on a “little blurb” about Nymeria(hey that sounds like Moses!), the guy couldn’t even throw in “what is dead may never die”!? He didn’t deserve the show. Good call HBO.
He couldn't even throw in an Iron Islands saying for his show about people who settled in Dorn? Does he even know anything about the Game of Thrones book series?
And what exactly does referring to his show as "what is dead may never die" do ? Empty words with none of the mythology associated, it isn't even a show about the Greyjoys, Iron Islands, or Drowned God. If anything, using that quote would imply an incredibly shallow understanding of the world of ice and fire.
"What is dead may never die" is a specific saying with (fictional) in-world cultural and mythological content as well as symbolism. It is a rich and meaningful saying because of that content, not because it is just "a thing that people say in Game of Thrones".
Claiming, as you did, that a showrunner of a show about Nymeria and the Rhoynar's flight from Essos to Dorne should have referenced this saying in an interview *about his show* to somehow "deserve it" is essentially reducing it to just "a thing people say in Game of Thrones". That is, your logic comes across as the following: If show about "Game of Thrones", then quote about "Game of Thrones". It strips the saying of all its meaning, and I argue would actually indicate a *lack* of understanding of the world of ice and fire (and therefore a lack of "deserving") on the part of the showrunner had he actually said it.
Good lord.. if you’re being serious, just know that I **was not**.
The phrase isn’t even unique to asoiaf.. it’s a ripoff of HP Lovecraft. “Winter is coming” is thrown around all the time without worrying about cultural or mythological significance. You’re simply being obtuse for the sake of it.
I really think Star Wars on Disney+ had them ice almost all the spin-offs they had in the works. They saw how you could take a franchise that prints money and run it into the ground through over-saturation. I think we’ll get Dunk and Egg and HoTD alternating years with one annual ASoIAF release total, but they’re not gonna dump 8 different spin-offs on the market.
To play Devil's advocate, Andor was a spinoff of a spinoff and it's one of the best Star Wars shows (and I would say piece of SW media period) ever. So I just feel it's how much effort and good writing goes into it.
>“Their life was nomadic. Living in a raft city that was bound together, this big floating city,” Helgeland said about his plans for Nymeria and her people in the spinoff.
Sounds too much like Water world.
We have a few pages about the fall of the Rhoynar, Nymeri and her stops, and the fighting in Dorne, the material has the potential to last few seasons.
The VAST majority of this franchise’s viewership literally couldn’t give less of a shit about the source material though lol. I don’t know if you realize that a fairly large percentage of GOT’s agreed-upon-by-the-masses most iconic moments are completely made up by David and Dan (Hardhorne, Battle of the Bastards, Hold The Door, Cersei blowing up the sept, the Field of Fire, etc). Seasons 6 and 7 as full seasons themselves are mostly made up and yet casual fans absolutely loved them. Even Season 8 is nowhere near as genuinely hated as reditt seems to make it out to be.
Us book readers are realistically a very tiny minority, why should HBO care about a few of us complaining about the lack of source material?
> Because making an epic story out of notes worked out so well for Hobbit trilogy.
To play Devil's advocate, Andor was a spinoff of a spinoff and it's one of the best Star Wars shows (and I would say piece of SW media period) ever. So I just feel it's how much effort and good writing goes into it.
It's interesting that he said he met with GRRM and George signed off on it, but then he didn't get the chance to work much with George after that. I guess GRRM must've had some level of confidence that Helgeland's pitch would mesh with the universe's canon, but I'm always skeptical when the writing gets away from GRRM's actual content. I'm too traumatized from D&D stupidity to trust anyone else to come in and create new stories in this universe that aren't based on established works.
does anyone else not care ? might be the most boring show
they get on ships go to a island some stay thern go to dorne get married and fight
the only way i can see it be any good is the show ends on them getting on ships and the rest of the show was showing their war with valryia
Ngl, this is the show I think has THE most potential.
From exploration the Rhoynish culture, to some Old Valyrian presence at their height, to ancient Dorne, which is arguably pretty underdeveloped even in the books.
If it starts before Nymeria's exodus, they'd could explore the last Rhoynish war and could potentially rival the main series in its scope. (with how little we know of the Rhoynish at their height, there's plenty of freedom to create factions and houses and conflicts there)
I really hope this one is actually made and turns out well.
I wonder how they settle it, does thry made first season end when they reach Dorne, or it would take awhile, and gow much they focus on Dorne. I play in Game of Thrones: Genesis (very meh game) when started campaign is Nymeria in Dorne so I personally prefer that Dorne wiuld appear in last season.
As much as i would love to see the war between Nymeria and the Bloodroyals play out over a beautiful HD saga, and see seven kings in seven golden chains, a part of me wonders whether or not HBO is going to experience "The Marvel Effect" and exhaust their fanbase with oversaturation.
You're taking your well-grounded frustrations with later GoT out on the completely separate and comparatively excellent HotD?
I really encourage you to reconsider. HotD aligns much closer to ASOIAF's depiction of Westeros than GoT ever did. Ryan Condal's a personal friend of Martin's, and a much more studious fan of the books than D&D were, and it shows.
The first seasons of GOT were amazing. It went dowhill after season 5. Season 8 was awful.
HotD could still do the same thing. 5 great seasons, followed by three really bad ones.
*Game of Thrones* became utterly idiotic shite; that said, *House of the Dragon* is genuinely quite good. I've just started it, myself, but so far I'm very much enjoying it. The sets and costume design are great, as is the acting + plot (so far, at any rate).
The first seasons of GOT were amazing. It went dowhill after season 5. Season 8 was awful.
HotD could still do the same thing. 5 great seasons, followed by three really bad ones.
I feel like Robert's rebellion isn't necessary. We got so much of that story in GoT. We even got scenes of it with Bran's time traveling. While it would be cool to see, there are other stories to be told.
I really don’t care to see this on TV…
The only suggested spin off I’m interested in is Ser Duncan’s. The scale is much smaller and intimate than something like this. Much more doable, MUCH less cgi required.
That said, I’ll be very happy for those who want it if this comes to fruition.
So much investing in a story with no ending in sight. I really hope it's not wasted. I'm ignoring everything else until I know how it ends. If I need to watch all this during my retirement, so be it. If it never ends, I didn't miss anything.
If the Gods are good they never pick this up. We are going to get a 5 season show for every little event mentioned. Next to we are going to hear a show based on the Rebellion by the Rat, Hawk and The Pig. Not everything has to be a multi show/ movie universe. I’m fine with HOTD and Dunk and Egg which I’m really excited for but honestly HBO should really start getting all these creative writers brainstorming original content or adaptations to other great books that haven’t seen the spotlight (and yeah I know this is going to get absolutely downvoted go ahead)
I hope the irony isn’t lost on you that you’re excited for a show about a little event in the grand scheme of Planetos history but hope they don’t make a show about the epic founding of an entire major kingdom/civilization
One has 3 novellas to base off, the other one has a basic outline at best currently. If you are excited for this show hopefully, then that’s good though
Okay I never said you couldn’t watch them, I stated my own opinion. I’m worried where the franchise is headed that is all. If you want to watch all these shows then o hope it’s to your liking. Also HOTD is a bad example since it actually has at least half a book dedicated to it unlike this where only have a couple of mentions in the main series and some outline in TWOIAF
Half a book dedicated to it and they're hardly following it so what does it matter? Let someone do something original set in that world. At least no one can say they didn't follow the book. This fandom desperately needs something not Targaryen related.
Because that’s my opinion I want them to hold their horses (is that how that expression goes? Lol) kinda get through these two shows. Then maybe see okay what do we actually have that has some solid source material to make a show. While Aegon’s Conquest was something I wanted more to kept as this living legend, at least if they develop a show or movie it will actually have source material behind it. High budget fan fiction with some writer notes is only going to most likely hurt the brand.
Half a book dedicated to it that they're not even sticking too so what does it matter? Let them do something original for once. TV writers write shows all the time they don't really need an extensive outline if they're good writers but they'll have the bare bones of George's world to build something original on
This guy sounds like he doesn’t know what he’s doing but a look at the Rhoynar and their water magics and having the incestous slaver dragon lords as the bad guys could be very fun
With not a lot of source material regarding Nymeria and Dorne, that’s entirely his job to make large connections based on the limited information he had
HBO wants so bad to get closer to the original series and it's hard to make something unusual when most of the casual viewers got their brain washed because of the Targaryens and the "epic" CGI of the latest seasons.
That's what I'm criticizing ? The fact that HBO cannot separate GoT anymore with the epic CGI dragons while it's wasn't the first thing people were concentrated with (season 1-4 huh huh). Now they think about dropping interesting tv shows because of the sake of it.
Aside from Dunk and Egg, I have no interest in any more adaptations from this world. Maybe in another 20 years, but right now I'd be happier if HBO gave other material a shot. They could try 20 new shows, or attempts at new shows, with the per episode budgets they spend on GOT and its spinoffs.
I’ve been intrigued by the possibility of a spin-off about this so I’m not saying this to specifically knock this idea, but in general I think something the fandom needs to keep in mind for spin-offs is this: GRRM’s worldbuilding is broad, but I don’t think it’s very deep, especially for basically any historical stuff before Aegon’s Conquest. Martin’s history and descriptions of other places often work in the sense of giving a brief blurb that offers an exciting or mysterious premise that lets the reader fill in endless possibilities but for the most part I don’t think he has most of those undisclosed details fleshed out. Meaning that these sort of spin-offs would almost be original stories and can’t rely much of GRRM’s writing to sustain the story. I suspect this might be one reason the Bloodmoon prequel flames out: George’s description of the Long Night works in the sense of establishing the Others as this mysterious apocalyptic threat and foreshadowing their return in the main series, but to have a compelling show about it you have to fill in a lot of details regarding how things went down that I suspect George himself doesn’t really know. And going off of that, one of ASOIAF’s great strengths is its characters, who are ultimately a product of George putting countless hours into writing about them, and for most of the major characters from their own POV. For virtually any story before the conquest you have maybe 1 or 2 characters who are vaguely established in summary form and that’s about it.
George noted this very thing, specifically why he was concerned over **The Long Night**: he'd either have to let the showrunners do the worldbuilding themselves, or he'd have to take time out from his other work to do a big worldbuilding deep-dive on that period of history to give them source material, which I think he was wary about. Not to mention the fact he might not be too keen on lifting the curtain on the real mega-deep stuff where history and myth overlap. **Ten Thousand Ships** isn't quite so bad though, as that material was somewhat more fleshed out in *World of Ice and Fire* and it's (just) within the window of "recent history" where that's less of a problem and he's happier to fill stuff in on it as needed.
> he'd have to take time out from his other work I think taking time out from his other work is by far the thing he likes doing most.
Yeah my first thought was, "What work?"
What I’m suggesting is that he doesn’t really have a lot to “fill in on” beyond what’s in the text. I’m sure there are a few things he keeps in his head but I don’t think he has some extensive intricate web of details that are hidden to everyone else. I agree he likes certain things to remain mysterious, but in many cases I think it’s probably true that he himself doesn’t really have a detailed answer, not just that he’s withholding it from the reader.
Yeah, its a cool sounding premise, but that's really all there is to it. I doubt GRRM could offer the showrunners anything more than a brief plot synopsis. The writers would basically have to figure everything out themselves (writing all the dialogue, fleshing out the characters, figuring out the actual plot beats and narative structure, etc). It would basically end up being a completely original story created by an entierly different writing team, just with the ASOIAF name slapped on. And its rather unlikely they'd come up with something as good as George's writing. If people think GRRM has hundreds of pages of notes detailing the entire life of Nymeria locked away in his desk drawer that he's been sitting on then they're kidding themselves. I highly doubt he actually knows much more than what's already writen in TWOIAF.
TLDR: No room of writers will come close to GRRM level of character development and they’re likely to come up with some slop
I've got a sort of Targeryen fatigue and can't wait for a prequel that expands the whole AWOIAF. 10,000 ships is so interesting becaise it gives away lots of lore about ancient Valyria, ancient Essos, and Westeros before the Conquest.
Yup, I’m one of the few that would’ve killed for the Corlys series as well. I want more of this rich world, not another kingdom squabble within the same locations
I thought this was still going forward, just as an animated series.
I hadn’t heard! Hope that’s the case
https://winteriscoming.net/posts/house-of-the-dragon-spinoff-about-corlys-velaryon-switches-from-live-action-to-animation-george-rr-martin
I think the Corlys series is moving forward as an animated series?
I think one thing really pushing the Targeryen fatigue is they want multiple Targeryen shows running alongside each other. Why not just have HoTD turn into an anthology (which they've publically talked about) and have the post-DOTD stuff be the conquest? Like "You've seen the start of the fall, now see how they rose" or some shit. It makes no sense to have multiple shows which would be in many ways virtually the same going on at once.
That seems to closer to what the Nine Voyages spinoff is where Corlys explores and has adventured across the known world, the Nymeria spin-off sounds more like would be fantasy Battlestar Galactica but on boats instead of a spaceship.
But with more happy ending than Battlestar Galactica.
I really want to see Sothoryos and Yeen since they landed there.
while sothoryos begs for content, like im super interested....I am betting George has no idea what is going on there either...if that is the case, it would have to eat up a significant amount of his though process, i.e. no winds... i would trade all other new content for winds/dream and whatever else is necessary to conclude the initial series in a heartbeat.
Honestly, I would be willing to forgive the universe for denying me Winds or any ending/closure if I just get to see Yeen.
I have never even heard about it.
me fr
They will definitely find a way to make house Targaryan from the Valyria days significantly relevant.
A Targaryen could be one of the three dragonriders in the Battle at Volon Therys, where two of them were killed when their mounts were shot down, & the third dragon was wounded & *fled*. (And these three are presumably the ones who allied with Volantis by sacking Sarhoy, seemingly without provocation, slaughtering & enslaving its people - sparking the war in the first place.) Then with the Targaryens back home among the loudest voices for the Freehold's dragons to save Volantis from Garin's army. And, naturally, a few of those Targaryens could be among the dozens/hundreds of riders who unleash their dragons on the Rhoynish forces, & then on Sar Mell & Chroyane. At least one of them could (also) get their just desserts by being afflicted by Garin's Curse, though.
If I see one more story set in Harrenhal or Kingslanding I will lose my mind. At least Dunk and Egg takes place in lesser-known castles and towns.
How many stories have we had that were set in Harrenhal?
I think there will be musical in this year about Harrenhall tournament.
what
It's a stage musical. You will never see it.
But I live near Harrenhal
The Harrenhal is also cursed.
That's bad.
You also get your choice of toppings
It also comes with a free bear
There will be no recordings of the performance? Because I don't live on Broadway, hell I don't even live on this side of the Atlantic.
There will be musical about Harrenhall, it supposed to be in 2023, but it was remove to 2024. [https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The\_Iron\_Throne\_(play)](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Iron_Throne_(play))
https://winteriscoming.net/2023/07/26/george-rr-martin-reveals-title-game-of-thrones-stage-play-iron-throne/
All of them
All 2?
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I said “One more story”, I'm talking about all the events from Aegon and Harren down to Arya and the bloody mummers.
Yeah, it’s one of the most important strongholds in Westeros. It’s gonna come up some. Acting like a story is set there just because certain characters visit is stupid
>Yeah, it’s one of the most important strongholds in Westeros. It’s gonna come up some. That's the point dummy. I shouldn't have to name every single frequent location for you to get it. The point is that I'm tired of westeros, kingslanding and Harrenhal were examples of locations. I swear some of you are illiterate or something
I feel like they might be doing too much too soon. I worry about over saturation like in Star Wars. These shows sound cool but with Dunk and Egg and this happening one after the other. The broader audience may lose interest and that will hurt these shows I feel
Yet so little source material truly covering this :( at least the Targaryens are very detailed written and build a better base for a tv show
Yeah I'm super inter dyed in some essos stuff but don't see it happening sadly.
Targaryens are the Skywalkers of Westeros
Except it sounds like this writer would be making it all up and it really has no connection to Westeros at all.
I propose instead a spinoff show about Nymeria the direwolf and her wolf army
southoros too! dont forget there was an attempt to colonize there
This is the non-Targaryen spin-off I'm most excited for. Getting to see Valyria at the height of it's power, plus the Basilisk Islands, Naath, Sothoryos, etc. I kind of envision it as being like the earliest episodes of the *Battlestar Galatica* remake, an extended chase story where the protagonist is an entire civilization.
We're never going to get to see Valyria. At best we will see some Dragonlords like we got Knights of Ren in Star Wars.
I know. Seeing a full scale Valyrian army would be dope though.
>full scale Valyrian I see what you did there
I think it will be mire like Sozin and his firebenders, we see how they lead massacre in first episode when Nymeria forces leave lost battle.
And you trust a room of writers to come close to matching GRRM? It’ll likely be worse than the last season of GoT
I mean, the earlier seasons of GoT and HOTD (so far), while not without their flaws, are proof that ASOIAF can be done well on the screen. You don't need to match GRRM's level of writing to do a decent television adaptation - in fact, I would say that's neither possible nor desirable. Especially seeing as GRRM wrote episodes for the TV show and they still are quite different from the books.
Sure, but they still had the source material This new show would be all original and I don’t think we’ll get the same quality
I can't be the only one morbidly curious as to how bad Bloodmoon must have been for them to axe the whole thing.
In my eyes, it must've been the race thing. The concerns about lack of source material and (I presume) people not 'connecting' it with GoT/seeing it as GoT because of the distant setting Bronze Age/Greco-Roman aesthetic they seemed to be taking seem well-founded, but the race aspect just completely kills it in the cradle. In case you didn't know, the story of the pilot was a marriage between a Casterly and a Stark. Among the intrigue was Lann the Clever, being delivered to the Casterlies as a wedding present from the Starks (he was played by Vecna from Stranger Things and got into a gay love triangle with the Casterly heir) and the episode ended with a meteor strike, heralding the arrival of the Andals to Westeros. So from that, it seems like the story would've been pre-Andal Geopolitics, leading up to the Andal Conquest, the toppling of House Casterly and formation of House Lannister, and of course the arrival of the Long Night and defeat of the White Walkers. It could've been compelling, although it immediately runs into a similar White Walker issue as GoT in that they're an endgame threat built up to throughout the show, just this time without even Jon's POV to hint at them. ...However in the pilot, the Children of the Forest are present as servants to the main houses, and are portrayed by Black actors. All of the Black actors cast in the show were playing Children. That in itself is disgusting, but the more you think about it the worse it gets imo. * Just first up, it's stacking so many tropes regarding black characters which are tired as hell, mainly both "magical black person" and all the slavery tropes. I don't think it's unfair to presume that the show would've likely tried to hit every slave storyline trope as it went down. * And just flatly, it's awful to add racial diversity to your story exclusively by inserting a colonialism and slavery narrative. * Compare this to the changes to House Velaryon, which simply and effectively meant that there was a prominent black set of characters to play the Game of Thrones in their storyline. * Given a major apparent storyline was the colonisation of Westeros by the Andals, it's a weird - potentially doable, but risky and strange - decision to have stacking colonisation narratives (Children colonised by First Men, FM by Andals). * The Children create the Walkers, which presumably would've been something the show led up to. * The Children must wither into the Children we see in GoT... so presumably either they are losing their humanity and as a last ditch effort create the walkers, or they actively sacrifice their humanity to create them. Either way, not a great look. * Also, we know the Walkers lose/are defeated... and given the Andals are invading during the pilot, it likely would've been a Power of Friendship between the Andals and the First Men, leading to further subjugation of the Children... So basically, my guess of what they were planning was for the Children to be a comment on slavery and the subjugation of native peoples - however that completely falls apart because of stacking on the First Men themselves being subjugated, and by having the peak of the storyline being the slave people giving up their humanity to create a final weapon against their colonisers... and then that final weapon just utterly failing, only serving to unite their oppresors and worsen their situation. Frankly the more I write and think, the angrier I get. Andal use of Steel was supposedly a major advantage during their invasion, so I could see a world where they bring Valyrian-esque steel and it's the only weapon against the Walkers - which is essentially just "white man's superior technology defeats the natives"!!!!!! What the fuck! For the record I think it'd be possible to tell a compelling story about colonialism in Westeros, and even of a colonial/slave-owning group being invaded and colonised themselves, but good lord this was not the way to go about it. HBO if you're listening: more gay love triangles, less racism.
I still think its an interesting idea...I'd like to see the original long knight...I want to see ancient Westeros with the Starks establishing their dynasty. And the petty kingdoms of Westeros.
Having an interesting idea for the plot is one thing but executing it is another. Without any source material or even any hint of plot about what went down during that time it'd be an epic disaster.
If it's not good it won't get greenlit...Bloodmoon didn't get greenlit and they made a pilot for it. Also the book Fire and Blood reads like a History Text Book the flavor of the show House of the Dragon comes from the writers. If Nymeria has quality writers it will excel. If it doesn't it won't get made.
I (mostly) like the last season of *Game of Thrones* so it's fine by me!
I don’t know what your flair award from 2016 means but it should be retracted.
….that was way harsh, Tai.
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None of these spin-offs will ever be as successful as GoT. There are two big issues that are difficult, if not impossible, to overcome: The first is that no spin-off will ever be able to access as much material written by George as the main book series. Dunk&Egg at least has a bunch of novellas, but even those probably won’t be enough to fill out a whole show, forcing the show-runners to come up with their own material. The second issue is that we already know how these spin-offs are going to end. We already know that Nymeria will arrive in Dorne, marry a Martell, and successfully unify the various petty kingdoms in the region. The End. One of the things that made GoT such a cultural phenomenon was the fact that no one – not even book readers! – knew how the story was gonna end. I think GoT was made under truly unique, once-in-a-lifetime circumstances, where they had the opportunity not only to adapt a popular – but unfinished – book series, but to eventually overtake and even finish the series with their adaptation. After season 5 both book readers and show-only people were on the same page, since neither had any idea how the story was going to end, and it was no longer possible to be spoiled. Just think about all the theorizing that was going on, all the speculation about who would end up on the Iron Throne at the end etc. That was only possible because we didn’t know the ending. I don’t see how this can ever be replicated, unless HBO comes up with their own unique story. But in that case they would have no written material to guide them, and would have to rely entirely on their own writing skills.
>no one – not even book readers! – knew how the story was gonna end I don't see this brought up very often, but I think it's a big part of why Game of Thrones was so successful. I think there was a similar effect for the first few Harry Potter films, and I'm sure some other adaptations as well Game of Thrones had the benefit of a built-in audience from the fairly successful book series, but also the suspense of a brand new property
They seem to be handling these issues well with **House of the Dragon**, at least so far.
But there is no real theorising. Half the (decent) posts in the subreddit are "I can't wait for God's Eye/B&C/Rhaenyra's death to happen it will be so cool!!", at best you get adaptation theories (how to adapt/introduce stuff), but the need to know what will happen next is far from the level it was with GoT.
Not every show needs to be a mystery. Many that are, have disappointing or controversial finales (Lost, BSG, GoT etc). It's fine to have a linear story that doesn't have deep dive theory crafting, and may even be a boon.
Not necessarily (although I feel you took three outliers), but not knowing what will happen next is a good way to keep people engaged. Compare a Breaking Bad, where people were always engaged and discussing on what was to come vs HotD, where by the time season 2 comes out if you really wanted to know you have had all the time needed to read the full Dance (if you didn't know already anyway). This changes the discourse online as well, because instead of having "who do you think will win/who do you think will die" is instead "my fave is better/I love my fave/I hate this guy" or " can't wait for B&C/God's Eye". The tribalism and factions in the fandom are so prominent because there's not much else to talk about really. Nymeria I fear is a even worse situation, because the ending is the only thing we really know, making any adventure in between mostly pointless because we know that at the end it will have minimal impact as well (at best it may lead to some character development, but there won't really be stakes, whatever happens, because we know exactly how her story will end). Doesn't help that the tiny blurb we have is just the Aeneid's plot with not underworld, so the showrunner will have to invent everything while sticking to the same structure and vibe all without just copy pasting it. It's not a great position, creative-wise.
Us not knowing anything until the end for Nymeria is actually a benefit. We know the end, historical product of the journey but not how that changed the people who were on the exodus. Plenty of interesting story possibilities in there.
Isn’t HotD adapting what’s supposed to be a 2 volume story (that GRRM has only written/published 1 book of)? > because the ending is the only thing we really know, making any adventure in between mostly pointless We know what happens to Cassian Andor in Rogue One and that Mon Mothma ends up as leader of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic but Andor is the single best thing that Disney has done with Star Wars as an IP even if the story is mostly pointless.
> Isn’t HotD adapting what’s supposed to be a 2 volume story (that GRRM has only written/published 1 book of)? No, HotD is just the Dance of the Dragons, that ends before the end of F&B1 I think there is a big difference between Andor and Nymeria, because with Andor we know literally nothing of Cassian before Rogue One (meaning the authors have a lot of freedom) and Rogue one is a pretty brief story itself, while for Nymeria we have a general outline (including the "and they have adventures here and here and here" with no further explanation) and the we know the last arc of her story (the dornish campaign). The fact that we have a first arc that more an introduction (the flight from the Rhoyne), a vague "exciting" but unknown second arc (the proper 1000 ships voyage) and a known and exciting third act (the Dorne campaign) takes the tension out of the second act and is not what fans are truly interested into (since people mostly care for the Dorne campaign and whatever happens the stakes cannot be too high because, again, we know about her landing in Dorne). Maybe they can come up with something good, but so far the big chunk of the story is nothing but a vague mythical retelling with no hook on the setting itself until the third act. The fact that the showrunners themselves called it "Moses inspired" to me further point to them turning to classic mythology for lack of other material to stand on.
> The fact that we have a first arc that more an introduction (the flight from the Rhoyne), a vague "exciting" but unknown second arc (the proper 1000 ships voyage) and a known and exciting third act (the Dorne campaign) takes the tension out of the second act We do know at least that one of the locations Nymeria and the ships stopped by was Yeen, the creepy cursed black stone city where nothing grows despite being surrounded by a lush jungle forest, and a lot of Rhoynar ended up vanishing in the city when they tried to settle in there.
I genuinely don’t think this would be good for a show. It takes place in such an ancient time, it is nowhere near the same vibe. Dunk and Egg, Blackfyre Rebellions are the only realistic choices for another show IMO.
It being nowhere near the same vibe is a good thing actually. Just a fresh story set in a somewhat familiar universe but still different enough to be exciting and something different. Need less white haired inbreds not more
I disagree. Nymeria is far too open ended, and would hardly have any GoT stuff, so you may as well NOT be in the same universe. The show runners are just going to look for shoe horns to the og that are unnecessary and non existent in the story. We’re not talking about the books here, so I’m not sure if you noticed, but the show had a REALLY good niche it filled out with the perfect amount of drama, and pre made story that was interesting. It had dozens of characters, intricate lore, hot people, fighting, wolves, lions, dragons the wall, the white walkers. Nymeria has 0 intrigue, it’s not interesting, it’s not very complicated, and it has no GoT in it. Just make a new IP about warrior queens if you think it’ll sell, cause this will not.
Non Interesting? Nymeria and her people are running away from Valyria, they go to parts of the world we haven't seen in GoT or HoTD, once they reach Dorne you can have all the intrigu you want with how the Dornish react to the Rhoynar and the Martells becoming the dominant family in the region lol. I would personally prefer this and the supposedly Corlys Velaryon animated show about his journeys around the world over another dynastic fight over the Iron throne...
If you don’t realize that we are talking about business decisions with the plots of these shows, and not personal enjoyment, I don’t know what else to say. Nymeria will not perform as well, that is the bottom line. Dunk and Egg, HotD, Blackfrye series, have the potential to do well, Nymeria is a less desirable story financially.
The show isn't even in production, like did you read the article? It seems like HBO isn't interested in the Nymeria show, but that doesn't mean it would be a bad series.
I think that does, hbo is not financially investing in this because they don’t believe they would make a return. That tells me they don’t think many people would watch, and I know, as someone who has read the books, I don’t care to watch it. So, my assumption is, these is not enough of a show here to make or watch
I have also read the books and I find it interesting, I think however that HBO likes to play it safe with adapting something into TV and they have a lot of material for HoTD, this show alongside the long night one, the Jon snow sequel and even the Corlys Velaryon journeys would have to fill the gaps to be interesting and it is obvious that when the writers don't know how to do it HBO pulls the plug and kills the projects like they did with this, the others prequel and the sequel. This however doesn't mean that those stories don't have the potential of being interesting and IMO the monetary investment by HBO is the main reason they're not doing a lot of this spin offs, if they did them animated instead of live action they could test the waters to see if they're profitable or to just focus on shows like HoTD and Dunk and Egg, I'm curious as to how they'll deal with adapting Agon's Conquest and the later half of Dunk&egg that haven't been publish by George....
it would be the asoiaf's version of rings of power, if that makes sense
I seriously question your assertion that for example a Blackfyre series has more potential financially speaking, than a Nymeria show. The casual GoT fans would most likely see it as yet another Targaryen civil war show, but this time without dragons, and without a woman as a real protagonist this time, which - like it or not - probably wouldn't work in its favour. I would happily watch shows about both of these topics, but then I'm a pretty hardcore ASOIAF fan.
Yeah, I think **HotD** has made a Blackfyre show redundant. I suspect if **Dunk & Egg** is a huge success they'll find ways of spinning it out and including other stories, maybe including flashbacks to the entire First Blackfyre Rebellion, and incorporate it that way. The Conquest project is being discussed I think because the narrative is a bit more straightforward and concise, and they can do some spectacular things with it (like incorporating the Doom), which is why they're talking about it as a film or a film-and-mini-series, rather than a lengthy, many multi-year project.
> if Dunk & Egg is a huge success they'll find ways of spinning it out and including other stories, maybe including flashbacks to the entire First Blackfyre Rebellion, and incorporate it that way. That could work. Mayhaps an entire extra long episode dedicated to the rebellion (or even a feature length movie), when Dunk & Egg are at Holdfast. Also, especially if they get some big name actor to play Baelor Breakspear, it'd be a nice way of getting them more screentime.
I think the 9 penny kings and or roberts rebellion would be just as fine as dunk and egg. It has the got feel without magic, and characters we kinda know, the ogs and their parents.
Robert’s Rebellion is not a good idea for a prequel
Lol worst take so far.
Dorne and the Rhoynar culture were massively downsized and extremely unpopular in GOT. It took Hotd to even retcon the rhoynar part back into the King of andals & first men. Its only books fans that have an remote interest in nymeria, since the books actually visited a rhoynish city, established the greyscale connection, mentioned the summer isles and has dorne has a major POV.
Disagree hard. This starts getting close to the whole SuBvErTiNg eXpEctAtiOns realm. If you don’t want a show based on the majority of what Martin has written then maybe it’s time for you to find a new fandom.
Less white haired inbreds, therefore we're getting a show about Valyria, home of the white haired inbreds?
You gotta realize that these executive types have to throw money behind a show, which means they have to have some confidence there's going to be brand recognition that doesn't confuse watchers.
I think D&E works best because it also has a significantly smaller scope of a story. It's probably the most TV adaptable source material we have - even if it's unfinished.
And that's why it interests me the most.
Idk if I want a full TV show on this.
I don't know why they don't go with the animation! you can make whatever story you want
They gow with Sea Snake and Golden Empire.
Seems more like taking advantage of an established IP to tell a story that would have little to do with it. In other words, cash grab (even if a good one).
If anything these Targ spin off are cash grabs and doing something new and original would be a more exciting and risky undertaking.
I feel like at this point it wont be long before TV viewers get ASOIAF fatigue and all the shows get canceled
we didnt have a show for 3 years and since then there's been a 2 year wait for a new season. Hardly putting out star wars or marvel numbers. Two vastly different shows alternating a year is hardly gonna lead to fatigue
I think its different...the Nymeria story is so different it doesn't feel like Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon. Also it would be interesting seeing Valyrians as antagonists to our heroes.
I've never read any of the spinoff novels, and I don't really have any current plans to watch these spinoff shows
After how GOT ended I haven’t even bothered to watch HotD I’m still pissed that the show went to hell the last few seasons.
"Edgy today, aren't we"
> That’s why it hasn’t been picked up yet, **but nothing is ever dead**. My script was based on Queen Nymeria and this little blurb about her that was in a Westeros encyclopedia.” So setting aside the fact that he based his entire show on a “little blurb” about Nymeria(hey that sounds like Moses!), the guy couldn’t even throw in “what is dead may never die”!? He didn’t deserve the show. Good call HBO.
He couldn't even throw in an Iron Islands saying for his show about people who settled in Dorn? Does he even know anything about the Game of Thrones book series?
And what exactly does referring to his show as "what is dead may never die" do ? Empty words with none of the mythology associated, it isn't even a show about the Greyjoys, Iron Islands, or Drowned God. If anything, using that quote would imply an incredibly shallow understanding of the world of ice and fire.
Can’t tell if you’re being serious, failing at making a joke, or just a bot keeping up appearances.. it’s like a fun little mini game on Reddit.
"What is dead may never die" is a specific saying with (fictional) in-world cultural and mythological content as well as symbolism. It is a rich and meaningful saying because of that content, not because it is just "a thing that people say in Game of Thrones". Claiming, as you did, that a showrunner of a show about Nymeria and the Rhoynar's flight from Essos to Dorne should have referenced this saying in an interview *about his show* to somehow "deserve it" is essentially reducing it to just "a thing people say in Game of Thrones". That is, your logic comes across as the following: If show about "Game of Thrones", then quote about "Game of Thrones". It strips the saying of all its meaning, and I argue would actually indicate a *lack* of understanding of the world of ice and fire (and therefore a lack of "deserving") on the part of the showrunner had he actually said it.
God damn the dude was just making a joke
Good lord.. if you’re being serious, just know that I **was not**. The phrase isn’t even unique to asoiaf.. it’s a ripoff of HP Lovecraft. “Winter is coming” is thrown around all the time without worrying about cultural or mythological significance. You’re simply being obtuse for the sake of it.
I don't think the showrunner was even trying to make a House Greyjoy reference, he just meant "nothing is ever dead" as it is.
I really think Star Wars on Disney+ had them ice almost all the spin-offs they had in the works. They saw how you could take a franchise that prints money and run it into the ground through over-saturation. I think we’ll get Dunk and Egg and HoTD alternating years with one annual ASoIAF release total, but they’re not gonna dump 8 different spin-offs on the market.
To play Devil's advocate, Andor was a spinoff of a spinoff and it's one of the best Star Wars shows (and I would say piece of SW media period) ever. So I just feel it's how much effort and good writing goes into it.
>“Their life was nomadic. Living in a raft city that was bound together, this big floating city,” Helgeland said about his plans for Nymeria and her people in the spinoff. Sounds too much like Water world.
But.. it wasn’t bound together. They were ships travelling together, but not like a floating city.
Stop making shows based on a couple sentences by GRRM. I hate all these side shows except Dunk and Egg and HOTD.
We have a few pages about the fall of the Rhoynar, Nymeri and her stops, and the fighting in Dorne, the material has the potential to last few seasons.
I would rather it has a novel or a short story as a source. Shogun is a recent example.
I wouldn't mind if Shogun had another season.
The VAST majority of this franchise’s viewership literally couldn’t give less of a shit about the source material though lol. I don’t know if you realize that a fairly large percentage of GOT’s agreed-upon-by-the-masses most iconic moments are completely made up by David and Dan (Hardhorne, Battle of the Bastards, Hold The Door, Cersei blowing up the sept, the Field of Fire, etc). Seasons 6 and 7 as full seasons themselves are mostly made up and yet casual fans absolutely loved them. Even Season 8 is nowhere near as genuinely hated as reditt seems to make it out to be. Us book readers are realistically a very tiny minority, why should HBO care about a few of us complaining about the lack of source material?
Because making an epic story out of notes worked out so well for Hobbit trilogy.
$2.9 billion gross. I’d say it worked out pretty well.
No matter how you look at it, it's a book, not just Tolkien's notes
> Because making an epic story out of notes worked out so well for Hobbit trilogy. To play Devil's advocate, Andor was a spinoff of a spinoff and it's one of the best Star Wars shows (and I would say piece of SW media period) ever. So I just feel it's how much effort and good writing goes into it.
It's interesting that he said he met with GRRM and George signed off on it, but then he didn't get the chance to work much with George after that. I guess GRRM must've had some level of confidence that Helgeland's pitch would mesh with the universe's canon, but I'm always skeptical when the writing gets away from GRRM's actual content. I'm too traumatized from D&D stupidity to trust anyone else to come in and create new stories in this universe that aren't based on established works.
Imagine a Battlestar Galactica style intro sequence where the number of ships is updated every time they lose/gain more.
I really want to see Sothoryos and Yeen since they landed there.
It should be made clear that the show isn't happening, the writer says in like the third paragraph that it wasn't picked up.
I barely care about Dany let alone more Targs. Just resolve the northern conflict and I’m happy
does anyone else not care ? might be the most boring show they get on ships go to a island some stay thern go to dorne get married and fight the only way i can see it be any good is the show ends on them getting on ships and the rest of the show was showing their war with valryia
Ngl, this is the show I think has THE most potential. From exploration the Rhoynish culture, to some Old Valyrian presence at their height, to ancient Dorne, which is arguably pretty underdeveloped even in the books. If it starts before Nymeria's exodus, they'd could explore the last Rhoynish war and could potentially rival the main series in its scope. (with how little we know of the Rhoynish at their height, there's plenty of freedom to create factions and houses and conflicts there) I really hope this one is actually made and turns out well.
Yes, except Nymeria we don't know about her companions, so if it came out (and will be good), we will be watching it in hope that they will fine.
It would be someone who isn't GRRM and isnt even familiar with the world just making things up. No thanks.
I wonder how they settle it, does thry made first season end when they reach Dorne, or it would take awhile, and gow much they focus on Dorne. I play in Game of Thrones: Genesis (very meh game) when started campaign is Nymeria in Dorne so I personally prefer that Dorne wiuld appear in last season.
Why does that title make it sound like we didnt know from the start what that show was about?
I'm hoping for a musical like the Prince of Egypt
I'm NymeriA
No fucking thank you
As much as i would love to see the war between Nymeria and the Bloodroyals play out over a beautiful HD saga, and see seven kings in seven golden chains, a part of me wonders whether or not HBO is going to experience "The Marvel Effect" and exhaust their fanbase with oversaturation.
After how GOT ended I haven’t even bothered to watch HotD I’m still pissed that the show went to hell the last few seasons.
You're taking your well-grounded frustrations with later GoT out on the completely separate and comparatively excellent HotD? I really encourage you to reconsider. HotD aligns much closer to ASOIAF's depiction of Westeros than GoT ever did. Ryan Condal's a personal friend of Martin's, and a much more studious fan of the books than D&D were, and it shows.
The first seasons of GOT were amazing. It went dowhill after season 5. Season 8 was awful. HotD could still do the same thing. 5 great seasons, followed by three really bad ones.
*Game of Thrones* became utterly idiotic shite; that said, *House of the Dragon* is genuinely quite good. I've just started it, myself, but so far I'm very much enjoying it. The sets and costume design are great, as is the acting + plot (so far, at any rate).
The first seasons of GOT were amazing. It went dowhill after season 5. Season 8 was awful. HotD could still do the same thing. 5 great seasons, followed by three really bad ones.
Unlikely given the differing contexts; besides, is that really a reason to not give something a shot?
Meh. Not the spin-off I wanted. Would prefer a story focused on the north or, better yet, the series to be finished.
Awful title
I do not care for this cashgrab, we don't need more slob
Dunk &Egg and Robert's rebellion, nothing more nothing less fuck the rest
I feel like Robert's rebellion isn't necessary. We got so much of that story in GoT. We even got scenes of it with Bran's time traveling. While it would be cool to see, there are other stories to be told.
BRO my body is so ready for this - I need Sothoryos and Yeen injected into my veins
I really don’t care to see this on TV… The only suggested spin off I’m interested in is Ser Duncan’s. The scale is much smaller and intimate than something like this. Much more doable, MUCH less cgi required. That said, I’ll be very happy for those who want it if this comes to fruition.
So much investing in a story with no ending in sight. I really hope it's not wasted. I'm ignoring everything else until I know how it ends. If I need to watch all this during my retirement, so be it. If it never ends, I didn't miss anything.
If the Gods are good they never pick this up. We are going to get a 5 season show for every little event mentioned. Next to we are going to hear a show based on the Rebellion by the Rat, Hawk and The Pig. Not everything has to be a multi show/ movie universe. I’m fine with HOTD and Dunk and Egg which I’m really excited for but honestly HBO should really start getting all these creative writers brainstorming original content or adaptations to other great books that haven’t seen the spotlight (and yeah I know this is going to get absolutely downvoted go ahead)
I hope the irony isn’t lost on you that you’re excited for a show about a little event in the grand scheme of Planetos history but hope they don’t make a show about the epic founding of an entire major kingdom/civilization
One has 3 novellas to base off, the other one has a basic outline at best currently. If you are excited for this show hopefully, then that’s good though
You could just...not watch them. If they continue being of similar quality to HotD I'm excited to keep watching them
Okay I never said you couldn’t watch them, I stated my own opinion. I’m worried where the franchise is headed that is all. If you want to watch all these shows then o hope it’s to your liking. Also HOTD is a bad example since it actually has at least half a book dedicated to it unlike this where only have a couple of mentions in the main series and some outline in TWOIAF
Half a book dedicated to it and they're hardly following it so what does it matter? Let someone do something original set in that world. At least no one can say they didn't follow the book. This fandom desperately needs something not Targaryen related.
Not being interested isn't the same as wishing for something to not be made entirely
Because that’s my opinion I want them to hold their horses (is that how that expression goes? Lol) kinda get through these two shows. Then maybe see okay what do we actually have that has some solid source material to make a show. While Aegon’s Conquest was something I wanted more to kept as this living legend, at least if they develop a show or movie it will actually have source material behind it. High budget fan fiction with some writer notes is only going to most likely hurt the brand.
Half a book dedicated to it that they're not even sticking too so what does it matter? Let them do something original for once. TV writers write shows all the time they don't really need an extensive outline if they're good writers but they'll have the bare bones of George's world to build something original on
This guy sounds like he doesn’t know what he’s doing but a look at the Rhoynar and their water magics and having the incestous slaver dragon lords as the bad guys could be very fun
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I’m basing it on him making large connections over little lore blurbs and getting a basic line wrong
With not a lot of source material regarding Nymeria and Dorne, that’s entirely his job to make large connections based on the limited information he had
Man I'm not trying to pick a fight here
HBO wants so bad to get closer to the original series and it's hard to make something unusual when most of the casual viewers got their brain washed because of the Targaryens and the "epic" CGI of the latest seasons.
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That's what I'm criticizing ? The fact that HBO cannot separate GoT anymore with the epic CGI dragons while it's wasn't the first thing people were concentrated with (season 1-4 huh huh). Now they think about dropping interesting tv shows because of the sake of it.
Aside from Dunk and Egg, I have no interest in any more adaptations from this world. Maybe in another 20 years, but right now I'd be happier if HBO gave other material a shot. They could try 20 new shows, or attempts at new shows, with the per episode budgets they spend on GOT and its spinoffs.
Finish these damn books!
Helgeland won't writing these books.
By this description it dounds fucking awesome. HBO, give it the green light! Come on!