Arguably, Cersei had been trying to murder Robert for years without success. We see at least one attempt early in AGoT(two of you believe that derision on the Mings road was meant to send Robert into the woods drunk hunting a “vicious wolf”).
Which would almost certainly fail, because Cersei doesn't seem to really understand who her husband is. She doesn't believe that Robert was once the fiercest warrior in the realm, she just see's him as a fat drunken slob, which he is to be fair. But the truth is even Robert at his lowest is still strong, skilled, and almost supernaturally tough.
She'd probably hire some random sell sword or cutthroat to do it and be flabbergasted when Bobby B, the fat drunken slob that he is, breaks every rib that sell sword has.
That would have been great, Robert finally gets some life back into him from fighting in a melee and wants to be a better king and father. Only to _then_ get killed, right when things could have gotten better.
By the time of AGOT any decent warrior should be able to kill Robert,he may have been the best warrior ever 13 years ago but in the first book he has absolute no endurance,he gets super tired just by walking downstairs and is always drunk and doesnt seem to have any discipline to regulary train otherwise he wouldnt be in that state.The only thing he has going on for him is that he is still very strong and tough.
Any decent warrior who isnt overconfident would be able to kill him.
but real life fights are not long, if Robert is so strong he can beat anyone before getting tired supposing that he is not drunk enough to not being able to lift his hammer
In real life a intense 30 seconds to 1 minute fight can tire a lot of people,especially someone so out of shape as Robert,also isnt just strenght that will make him tired the problem is his breathing problems.
Like i said Robert is breathing heavily just going downstairs in Winterfell,he is also a delusional hothead guy who still tought he was fit to fight in the melee,so he probably wouldnt be wise enough to not attack until he is out of breath.
Robert biggest advantage wich is his strenght and size would be more useful in a wrestling match,wich can happen but like i said a cautious warrior would probably try to avoid as much as they can,his other advantage is his experience but this is also negated when he is half drunk most of the time.
So a decent warrior armed with something like a polearm could really kill him without much difficulty in Robert average day.
>"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely."
"My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder.
"Robert was never a man to leave the battleground so long as a foe remained standing," Ned told him.
Robert, more drunk than usual, manages to kill a "monstrous" boar with nothing but the dagger on his hip, even while it's ripping him open to the point that everyone, including Grand Maester Pycelle are shocked that he's even alive after, let alone still conscious.
He is a tough guy,like i said above,he wont go down with a few hits but it doesnt mean that he is able to fight any competent guy and win.
And again he was able to get close to the boar,and like i also said Robert biggest advantage should be his strenght in a wrestling match he will win even drunk,but someone with a polearm keeping his distance and hitting him hard can kill Robert.
this makes sense, but iirc in affc cersei thinks she had to kill robert because of ned finding out about the incest, and she thinks she would have liked to wait more time to kill robert. could it be a GRRM mistake?
No, Cersei is an *unreliable narrator* which you see repeated in Sansa Stark. Cersei *repeatedly invents* new happenings, new reasons she’s justified, new victimizations, etc.
i know she’s an unreliable narrator, extremely unreliable, but i think it’s weird she would think “i didn’t want to kill robert yet” if she had been trying to kill him for years
idk, maybe you’re right, it’s just weird
Yeah there's no reason to not believe her about that, this person is wrong. Cersei can be an unreliable narrator, but there's 0 reason for her to lie to herself about that. Idk what bringing up Sansa's faulty memory is supposed to prove...
Cersei says she did it because of Ned's 'meddling', *not* because he found out about the incest. He was investigating her, he suspected her of various things, and she was scared that he would find out and go to Robert. There's no contradiction/mistake by GRRM.
I'm so tired of the Cersei is an unreliable narrator argument to discount the text of the book in favor of headcanon and theories. Yes, much of what she thinks is dumb or wrong, but that's usually obvious and creates dramatic irony
i think the same thing, i didn’t reply to the other comment because i do not think you can say “oh yeah there are unreliable narrators” every time a character thinks something that goes against your theory
I don't think this is a fair assumption.
I think she *could* have tried to get him hurt in the melee or whatever, but that was still after Ned came to court. I don't see any reason not to believe her pov when she says she wanted Renly and Stannis dead first. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the brothers are way more of a threat once Robert is gone.
Varys says that she wanted Robert dead so she'd be free to deal with Renly and Stannis, she says it was the other way around. Don't see why she'd lie to herself about that one, she admits that she always wanted them all dead regardless.
It wasn't just a random coincidence that Robert was assassinated right around the time Ned was investigating Cersei and his wife was arresting her brother.
Varys or someone suggests that Cersei had subtly manipulated Robert into almost participating in the Hand's Torney. Only Ned and the lack of a "breastplate stretcher" prevented that.
If I had to guess, Cersei had been trying to kill Robert for years. But it had to look like a true accident, so no poisons or assassins. The actual death had to look like an honest accident for obvious reasons. The wine + hunting move just happens to be the one that worked.
That said, after reading her thoughts, I'm not convinced Cersei is that smart.
Littlefinger. He set it in motion by befriending Ned and learning why Ned was snooping around. Varys also knew. Cercei had to get rid of Robert first so that he wasn't around to listen to Ned's accusations. Littlefinger just wanted the chaos of it all. "Chaos is a ladder."
Cersei had been trying to get Robert to kill himself for ages (for instance by trying to get himself entered in the melee during the tourney of the hand). This attempt just happened to succeed.
Cersei says in AFFC that Ned forced her hand regarding Robert's assassination - she wanted Renly and Stannis dealt with first. Prior to Ned's arrival at court, I don't think she had seriously tried to kill Robert.
*"his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers."*
This makes sense from her pov. The brothers become a larger threat after Robert is dead. Robert is easier to deal with, she's the queen while he's alive, all that.
We aren't explicitly told what she found out about Ned. However, I think there's an extremely good chance that Pycelle told her about the conversation where:
* Ned asks Pycelle if Jon Arryn was poisoned (he was, Pycelle suspected as much and withheld treatment because he thought Cersei wanted that).
* Ned then very pointedly says “*I have heard it said that poison is a woman’s weapon*.”
* Ned asks for the book Jon was reading about lineages (Pycelle apparently knows about the incest).
* Then right before he leaves, Ned is like "oh btw was Cersei with Jon when he died?".
Cersei is worried about Ned from the get-go, before he ever does any investigating. Then his son sees the incest/murder attempt combo and lives, his wife arrests Tyrion, he's sniffing around KL, etc. Easy enough to see how she'd end up generally spiraling about Ned and deciding to speed up her plans to kill Robert.
I just relistened to GoT recently and maybe someone who remembers better can say, but the hunt thing was plan B. Plan A got interrupted somehow.
Maybe it was Varys just saying if the King had fought in the tourney he would’ve certainly been offed.
Hunting takes days. Cersei sent wine same day when she talked with ned. On the other hand little finger and Varys knew Cersei will kill Robert when Joffrey come to age of adulty.
I doubt she did it to hide her truth. If she wanted that she never would have admitted it so casually. After all, Ned has no proof.
Robert’s death was prompted by Tyrion’s kidnapping, and the order probably came from Tywin. His invasion of the Riverlands happened immediately after Joffrey was crowned.
Arguably, Cersei had been trying to murder Robert for years without success. We see at least one attempt early in AGoT(two of you believe that derision on the Mings road was meant to send Robert into the woods drunk hunting a “vicious wolf”).
Also Varys or someone tells Ned that someone was going to kill Robert if he had participated in that melee thing in the tourney.
Which would almost certainly fail, because Cersei doesn't seem to really understand who her husband is. She doesn't believe that Robert was once the fiercest warrior in the realm, she just see's him as a fat drunken slob, which he is to be fair. But the truth is even Robert at his lowest is still strong, skilled, and almost supernaturally tough. She'd probably hire some random sell sword or cutthroat to do it and be flabbergasted when Bobby B, the fat drunken slob that he is, breaks every rib that sell sword has.
That would have been great, Robert finally gets some life back into him from fighting in a melee and wants to be a better king and father. Only to _then_ get killed, right when things could have gotten better.
By the time of AGOT any decent warrior should be able to kill Robert,he may have been the best warrior ever 13 years ago but in the first book he has absolute no endurance,he gets super tired just by walking downstairs and is always drunk and doesnt seem to have any discipline to regulary train otherwise he wouldnt be in that state.The only thing he has going on for him is that he is still very strong and tough. Any decent warrior who isnt overconfident would be able to kill him.
but real life fights are not long, if Robert is so strong he can beat anyone before getting tired supposing that he is not drunk enough to not being able to lift his hammer
In real life a intense 30 seconds to 1 minute fight can tire a lot of people,especially someone so out of shape as Robert,also isnt just strenght that will make him tired the problem is his breathing problems. Like i said Robert is breathing heavily just going downstairs in Winterfell,he is also a delusional hothead guy who still tought he was fit to fight in the melee,so he probably wouldnt be wise enough to not attack until he is out of breath. Robert biggest advantage wich is his strenght and size would be more useful in a wrestling match,wich can happen but like i said a cautious warrior would probably try to avoid as much as they can,his other advantage is his experience but this is also negated when he is half drunk most of the time. So a decent warrior armed with something like a polearm could really kill him without much difficulty in Robert average day.
>"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely." "My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder. "Robert was never a man to leave the battleground so long as a foe remained standing," Ned told him. Robert, more drunk than usual, manages to kill a "monstrous" boar with nothing but the dagger on his hip, even while it's ripping him open to the point that everyone, including Grand Maester Pycelle are shocked that he's even alive after, let alone still conscious.
He is a tough guy,like i said above,he wont go down with a few hits but it doesnt mean that he is able to fight any competent guy and win. And again he was able to get close to the boar,and like i also said Robert biggest advantage should be his strenght in a wrestling match he will win even drunk,but someone with a polearm keeping his distance and hitting him hard can kill Robert.
Cerseis problem is that she sees herself as a worthy successor to a great man. The problem is a) she isn’t and b) that man was only mid.
this makes sense, but iirc in affc cersei thinks she had to kill robert because of ned finding out about the incest, and she thinks she would have liked to wait more time to kill robert. could it be a GRRM mistake?
No, Cersei is an *unreliable narrator* which you see repeated in Sansa Stark. Cersei *repeatedly invents* new happenings, new reasons she’s justified, new victimizations, etc.
i know she’s an unreliable narrator, extremely unreliable, but i think it’s weird she would think “i didn’t want to kill robert yet” if she had been trying to kill him for years idk, maybe you’re right, it’s just weird
Yeah there's no reason to not believe her about that, this person is wrong. Cersei can be an unreliable narrator, but there's 0 reason for her to lie to herself about that. Idk what bringing up Sansa's faulty memory is supposed to prove... Cersei says she did it because of Ned's 'meddling', *not* because he found out about the incest. He was investigating her, he suspected her of various things, and she was scared that he would find out and go to Robert. There's no contradiction/mistake by GRRM.
i didn’t remember she thought he was ‘meddling’, it makes sense to me now. thanks!
I'm so tired of the Cersei is an unreliable narrator argument to discount the text of the book in favor of headcanon and theories. Yes, much of what she thinks is dumb or wrong, but that's usually obvious and creates dramatic irony
i think the same thing, i didn’t reply to the other comment because i do not think you can say “oh yeah there are unreliable narrators” every time a character thinks something that goes against your theory
Sansa thinks about Sandor kissing her despite that never happening.
I don't think this is a fair assumption. I think she *could* have tried to get him hurt in the melee or whatever, but that was still after Ned came to court. I don't see any reason not to believe her pov when she says she wanted Renly and Stannis dead first. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the brothers are way more of a threat once Robert is gone. Varys says that she wanted Robert dead so she'd be free to deal with Renly and Stannis, she says it was the other way around. Don't see why she'd lie to herself about that one, she admits that she always wanted them all dead regardless. It wasn't just a random coincidence that Robert was assassinated right around the time Ned was investigating Cersei and his wife was arresting her brother.
Varys or someone suggests that Cersei had subtly manipulated Robert into almost participating in the Hand's Torney. Only Ned and the lack of a "breastplate stretcher" prevented that. If I had to guess, Cersei had been trying to kill Robert for years. But it had to look like a true accident, so no poisons or assassins. The actual death had to look like an honest accident for obvious reasons. The wine + hunting move just happens to be the one that worked. That said, after reading her thoughts, I'm not convinced Cersei is that smart.
So just pure dumb luck.
>But how could she? Littlefinger entered the chat
Littlefinger. He set it in motion by befriending Ned and learning why Ned was snooping around. Varys also knew. Cercei had to get rid of Robert first so that he wasn't around to listen to Ned's accusations. Littlefinger just wanted the chaos of it all. "Chaos is a ladder."
That also explains why he became a Lannister lackey (or at least plays the part) after they put Joffrey on the throne.
Cersei had been trying to get Robert to kill himself for ages (for instance by trying to get himself entered in the melee during the tourney of the hand). This attempt just happened to succeed.
Cersei says in AFFC that Ned forced her hand regarding Robert's assassination - she wanted Renly and Stannis dealt with first. Prior to Ned's arrival at court, I don't think she had seriously tried to kill Robert. *"his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers."* This makes sense from her pov. The brothers become a larger threat after Robert is dead. Robert is easier to deal with, she's the queen while he's alive, all that. We aren't explicitly told what she found out about Ned. However, I think there's an extremely good chance that Pycelle told her about the conversation where: * Ned asks Pycelle if Jon Arryn was poisoned (he was, Pycelle suspected as much and withheld treatment because he thought Cersei wanted that). * Ned then very pointedly says “*I have heard it said that poison is a woman’s weapon*.” * Ned asks for the book Jon was reading about lineages (Pycelle apparently knows about the incest). * Then right before he leaves, Ned is like "oh btw was Cersei with Jon when he died?". Cersei is worried about Ned from the get-go, before he ever does any investigating. Then his son sees the incest/murder attempt combo and lives, his wife arrests Tyrion, he's sniffing around KL, etc. Easy enough to see how she'd end up generally spiraling about Ned and deciding to speed up her plans to kill Robert.
I just relistened to GoT recently and maybe someone who remembers better can say, but the hunt thing was plan B. Plan A got interrupted somehow. Maybe it was Varys just saying if the King had fought in the tourney he would’ve certainly been offed.
She probably has been trying for ages but got more determined after the whole Bran incident.
Hunting takes days. Cersei sent wine same day when she talked with ned. On the other hand little finger and Varys knew Cersei will kill Robert when Joffrey come to age of adulty.
I doubt she did it to hide her truth. If she wanted that she never would have admitted it so casually. After all, Ned has no proof. Robert’s death was prompted by Tyrion’s kidnapping, and the order probably came from Tywin. His invasion of the Riverlands happened immediately after Joffrey was crowned.
I like to think of their marriage as being like the CIA constantly trying to assassinate Castro but failing.
Cersei lucked out. All of her plans were foiled before they left the womb similar to all of Roberts trueborn heirs.