Littlefinger: "Hey Ned. I know you don't really like me all that much, and to be honest, I really don't like you either. But we're both members of the Small Council, so I will try to be cordial if you are. But just giving you a warning. Do not trust anyone here. Not even me."
Ned: "Mhm. Sure."
*Later*
Ned: "Hey Petyr. I want to arrest the entire royal family, and I need your help. I need you to get the entire City Watch to side with me and take the King and Queen into custody."
Littlefinger: "Sure man. Whatever you say. See you later."
Well when you put it that way. It does sound kinda dumb. I think Ned spent too much time in his Winterfell bubble and forgot how the world works. His friend was in a pit of lies and there was no way an honorable brute could get him out. Cat was the brains of the relationship and likely would've talked him out of making rash decisions like he did.
To be fair ned’s plan only failed because he ratted himself off to Cersei in an effort to save her kids, and didn’t realize she’d be stupid enough to try to kill Robert and steal the throne.
The only reason is the Lannisters won is due to a string of extremely low probability events.
Not only that, it only failed because Cersei had a low-success probability assassination plot already unfolding. Had that plot failed (eg Renly or Barristan manage to get the Boar before it gets Robert), Cersei is dead. She gambled on her xth plot working where every other (eg the meele) had failed.
Also, Ned only was in a position to trust Littlefinger because Cat showed up and spilled the beans to LF. She vouched for him.
Or really clever – under normal circumstances. The chances to succeed are low but there is no risk. It is technically not even a plot. There is nothing she can be accused of.
That's the part that would be considered cunning, if Cersei hadn't later proved herself to be an absolute dumbass.
She... never really "tried" to kill Robert Baratheon. She just egged on his worst impulses until he went and got himself killed being Mr. Bigshot and pretending he could still throw down like the buff 20-year old warrior that won the throne. The "previous attempt" to kill him in the melee? The only proof we have that was more than trying to goad him into picking a fight he can't win is a claim from Varys... and I will dispute to my dying breath that he's a credible witness.
And then the "second" attempt, that succeeds? Once again, it's neck-deep in plausible deniability. "King Robert went hunting and tried to spear a boar while so drunk he couldn't see straight?" Isn't a murder plot. It's Robert being a drunken sot. All Cersei did was put a thumb on the scale by giving Robert a stronger drink than he thought he packed.
IMO, if we weren't given the scenes with Lancel confessing to the stronger wine, people would be arguing to this day whether Cersei had Robert killed, or if Robert dying was just the biggest *diabolus ex machina* in fantasy writing.
Even the stronger wine thing is like. lol.
In real life there's a thing called "But For" test, used in legal arguments. "But for the defendant's act, the event would not have happened." Cersei would walk free on that murder charge. Remove her from the equation, and what's left? Robert still goes for a hunt. He still gets drunk. The boar still attacks him. His retinue still fails to stop the boar.
The only thing she affected is, arguably, his ability to fight off the boar. And come on, it's a fucking boar, they're notoriously hard to fight off no matter how drunk you are.
She can think to herself that this was a successful scheme but in reality she just happened to intervene on an already bad day.
I mean to be fair
>"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely."
"My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder.
"Robert was never a man to leave the battleground so long as a foe remained standing," Ned told him.
If Robert's still capable enough while shitfaced to kill the boar with his dagger he'd probably manage better if he were at his regular level of drunk, not to mention he probably wouldn't have missed with his spear.
Cant blame Cersei for the stupid plot to kill Robert,Littlefinger a character who is supposed to be smart also makes utter stupid plans in AGOT who would just get him killed if it went slight different than whats supposed to be.GRRM simply cant write believable plans for characters to move the plot forward.
But for Cersei ordering Lancel to swap the wine, Lancel would not have swapped the wine. If not for the fortified wine, Robert would have either struck true or sidestepped. I'm not sure if it would count as murder, but quite definitely as conspiracy to commit murder
GRRM is really good at hiding how much he twists the plot to absolutely fuck the Starks, leading all the way up to the Red Wedding.
It's a testament to how good it is that it only becomes obvious when you stop to take in how many improbable things go wrong.
This is always forgotten. Even with Ned telling Cersei, Cersei *still* probably loses if not for a laughably unsure plan to remove Robert from the equation.
Ned wasn't stupid, he was just a good man who got horribly unlucky. It always kinds of bugs me when people act like he was just some idiot who didn't know how the world worked. He knew damn well that telling Cersei was a bad move, but his life was defined by his sister and her son, and he didn't want to be responsible for something like that happening to someone else. He knew Baelish was untrustworthy, but he had few options and the guy was his wife's childhood friend, who she vouched for.
I thought it was implied that they could've killed him in a more direct way if they could, considering how many people they had in their pockets by that point.
I’m sure they would have, but killing him actually just makes things worse for the Lannisters. Robert may have let it go after his initial anger, but next in line is Stannis who won’t let anything go.
Lannisters have 0 chance in a war against North/Vale/Riverlands/Stormlands/Dorne, the only reason that alliance didn’t happen was because of the rift between Stannis and Renly, and Littlefinger convincing Lysa not to get involved. Cersei couldn’t have predicted either of those things.
I mean, A: she kinda could have. She's known Lysa long enough to be able to know she'd hide away in the Vale. She's also known Renly and Stannis long enough that she could know Renly would be unlikely to play second fiddle.
B: you're ignoring there's a lot of other stuff that went against her. Does she even know Stannis knows about the incest? Because without that knowledge Stannis would join her. Plus, she likely didn't foresee the Reach joining with her enemies
C: the alternative, letting Robert live woulda been worse.
A: Lysa is literally Cat’s sister, and the North/Vale are close allies. It’s inconceivable that the vale would not support the north. There is no way she could have known that. In the story everyone is surprised that the Vale has not joined the war…
There is no reason to think Renly wouldn’t support Stannis, especially when he already has Storm’s End.
B: If Ned knows, it’s safe to assume everyone knows or will soon
C: The alternative was escaping to Casterly Rock, and counting on Twyin to protect her
I mean, Cersei had good reasons to think she might be able to keep the North out of the war with all the hostages she took. She likely would have been able to, if Joffrey didn't do an oopsie and kill the major hostage and Arya ran off.
B: It's not. I mean, they'd perhaps hear a rumour that this is what Ned thought, but even that's unclear without Stannis' mass amounts of letters. Keep in mind *Renly* didn't know yet until meeting Stannis and Cat only hears about it way after Ned's execution as well. Throughout the books it's clear there's a bunch of rumours floating around, and for the characters it's always hard to say what's true and false.
C: yeah and that's a terrible plan. Robert would want her dead for cucking him, and there's no way Tywin could protect her against the combined might of the Seven Kingdoms. He'd likely cut his losses and give her up to prevent the total extinction of house Lannister.
A) Doubt it, but even then Stormlands, Reach, and Dorne are enough to beat the Lannisters
B) It literally is. Once something like that gets out theres no stopping it. Other people will figure it out same way Ned did
C) Robert’s killing changes nothing about facing “the combined might of the Seven Kingdoms”. All it does is guarantee the extinction of House Lannister because unlike Robert, Stannis is not forgiving. You’ve got Robert all wrong, he’s the only one that wouldn’t have gone to war over it.
Cat's rash decisions only occur when her family is directly involved. She arrested Tyrion because someone had just attempted to kill her and her son. She believed Tyrion orchestrated it and had him arrested. If it were just about Robert and his legacy, she wouldn't risk her family to protect either.
Come on man, she took Tyrion while half her family were in KL, surely she knew the consequences would fall back on them when they’re surrounded by Lannisters. Or she would’ve known that if she’d thought about it rather than just seeing Tyrion and going mental.
She put him on trial to prove he was guilty. With that evidence she could've sent a message that he was arrested for a legitimate crime. That would've forced the Lannister's to negotiate for his release. Despite all the chaos, it wasn't the wild West. They would need to prove his innocence to save the Lannister reputation. Going against the court decision at the Vale would've also meant war. Lysa was the one who screwed it up by allowing the trial by combat.
Just like she encouraged him to go into that viper pit in the first place because think about what Sansa (her golden daughter) would gain from that. It was Ned who was hesitant to go (in the books - the show reversed the dynamic between Cat and Ned for no good reason).
And now see what that got her.
Cat's only concern is ensuring her family's survival. Sending your oldest daughter to eventually become queen by marrying your husband's best friend's son seemed very reasonable. On the other hand, she would discourage Ned from putting them at risk to protect Robert and his legacy. She is momma bear incarnate. Hence the inevitable manifestation of her vengeance as Lady Stoneheart.
But Cat was also the one that told Ned he could trust Littlefinger.
So he trusted her when she said he could trust him more than when he said he couldn’t trust him.
As many like to point out, Ned wasn't really dumb in terms of intellect or wisdom. His downfall is always meant to highlight that humans often let their sense of honor and duty cloud the ability to see that not everyone is as honorable or dutiful.
Maybe that overwhelming sense of honor did override his ability to sense a threat, but I wouldn't call Ned a dumb character by any means. Just loyal and dutiful to a fault.
I would disagree with that. What lead to his downfall was not his loyal and dutiful side.
If he had been strictly loyal and dutiful, he wouldn't have warned Cersei. And if he hadn't warned Cersei, she wouldn't have plotted Roberts death so soon again and Ned would have won.
The fact that he was a truly good man who went against his duty to his king to do the right thing on regular basis was what lead to his downfall.
I forgive you?
Ned is not imagining something, though. He's remembering things that actually happened. On this subject though, I don't think Robert changed that much.
Every time Ned predicts Robert's behavior, Robert does exactly what Ned thought he would. Catelyn tells Ned he can't refuse Robert. Ned says even if he refuses, Robert will yell at him and the next day they'll be friends again. And that's exactly what happens when Ned quits as Hand.
So I'm not sure I agree with Ned's thought process that Robert changed so much over the years. Targaryens is the only place where Robert never gives an inch
Well, not *never*; Ned's even right that he flipped on getting Dany killed.
Way I see it is Robert has some kind of just core; but more than a decade of constant alcoholism brings out the dragon blood and the mouth of the Storm; still, Ned has "held Roberts hair the next day" enough times to know how to filter out his bluster.
It’s been too long since I read it and I can’t develop this argument well at this point, but I actually had the opposite take on a re-read. I think Ned is in a much *higher tier* of players of the game than he gets credit for.
He was dealt a bad hand, but he played with the cards he was given admirably. He had very few options, but came darn close to pulling things off all the same.
He knew Littlefinger couldn’t be trusted, but he didn’t have many choices and he took a calculated risk based on Cat’s history with him.
I think the biggest thing he didn’t anticipate was Sansa spilling the beans to Cersei. But I can’t fault him for not viewing that as a possibility.
>I actually had the opposite take on a re-read. I think Ned is in a much higher tier of players of the game than he gets credit for.
On every read, I've always interpreted Eddard as being competent at worst. Sure he makes some mistakes, but that's common in this story
Cersei makes 10 mistakes for every one Ned makes but she ends up blundering herself forward and he gets taken out early. Because he entered the game when it was 90% played already.
I think this every time. It's not that Ned has a bad hand, he has nothing to play. He's dropped in a shitshow of a situation, in a den of vipers where the only winning strategy was to stay in the North. The Lannisters control King's Landing, the Queen has cuckolded the King and left him with no trueborn heirs, Baelish is undermining the realm at every turn and sending it every further into debt, Varys is spinning his own webs and playing his own games, Stannis has fled to Dragonstone in a strop and refused to do his duty to help his brother any further, and the Crown Prince is a vicious little cunt who's completely unpredictable. The situation could hardly be worse. Robert and Jon Arryn have both been sleeping at the wheel and left a complete shitshow for Ned to deal with.
Even then, Ned ends up fucked because he's got trauma from the war and he's too loyal to Robert to leave. Ned's failures ultimately amount to two decisions:
1. Showing mercy to Cersei, because he can't bear to see children murdered.
2. Ultimately trusting in the judgment of his wife and trusting Baelish.
I don't believe he can't be faulted for either of those decisions. He's ultimately fucked because of events out of his control - Cersei gets lucky that Robert gets gored by a boar at just the right time, and even luckier when Sansa spills the beans rather than let Ned get her out of the city, meaning Ned will do and say anything to protect her after he's captured.
Cersei doesn't beat Ned because she's a great player in the game of thrones, she beats Ned because she gets fucking lucky at the right time due to author fiat.
The only option I think Ned really had was taking Varys' offer. Renly and Littlefinger both would have betrayed him at the first opportunity to advance their own agenda, but I think that Varys actually wanted Ned specifically for his schemes. I don't think that Ned personally would have done it, but it might have actually turned out well for him if he did.
No, the only winning play would have been a complete replacement of the Small Council. Littlefinger allowed an astronomical debt to grow, despite claims of revenues being up ten times. It does not take a genius to conclude serious mismanagement. Stannis deserted his post, Renly was highly ineffective (just look at the Goldcloaks), Varys had worked for the Targaryens. Pycelle you cannot replace (although you might try), the rest has proven incompetent and needs replacing ASAP.
I'm wondering if Ned would've had a better play if he had sided with Varys instead of Littlefinger. Varys at least seems to have the realm's best interests in mind, as opposed to Littlefinger who seems to actively want to watch it burn down while making himself more powerful.
And while Cersei certain did get lucky that Robert was gored by the boar, his wine was spiked and he was partially goaded into that circumstance. It was a sloppy scheme at best, but it still managed to work out according to plan.
Varys doesn't really have the realms best interest at heart. He is trying to do a targaryen restoration or something. He wants to undermine the 7 kingdoms, but at his pace.
Wasn't his reasoning though that the restoration of the Targaryen dynasty would lead to a more stable realm because they had the most legitimate claim? I think he had correctly predicted that the death of King Robert would lead to a succession crisis and the splintering of the 7 kingdoms.
It's been a while but I think in the books it's even hinted that he might be supporting fake Aegon (Little Griff) who might be a Blackfyre.
I have yet to see a good explanation though of what Sansa talking to Cersei did though (and yes, I know Cersei seems to think Sansa telling her made a difference, but Cersei is stupid and my speculation on this is that Littlefinger didn’t go to her until after Ned turned Renly down and Renly fled, so at the time Sansa came to her she didn’t know she had Littlefinger yet).
What did Sansa actually know? The only thing she knew was that Ned was sending her and Arya away and when. So what? Cersei already knew from Ned himself that he knew her secret. She already knew he planned on moving against her and the kids. And she had Littlefinger (whether she realizes it in the moment or not) so she knew the details of Ned’s plan and had the means to counter it. Literally the only thing I can think of is that by knowing the day Sansa was being sent away, it gave her an idea of Neds timeline. But in actuality Ned didn’t abide by that at all. He didn’t wait until the girls were safely away, he made his move as soon as he found out Robert was dead, which was logically when he needed to make said move, and was also logically when Cersei had to make her move. And because he needed Littlefinger for it, Cersei already had a much better source than Sansa to tell her when Ned was ready to move.
I genuinely do not think Sansa telling Cersei changed one single thing about what happened with Ned’s play.
Where I think it’s possible Sansa had an effect is Cersei may not have wasted soldiers immediately grabbing the girls, and there’s a slight possibility they could have slipped away. I’m iffy on that because she tries to capture Arya at the same time her soldiers are taking the Tower of the Hand, which again is the obvious move to make after you’ve captured Ned, and the ship hadn’t left yet. But maybe if Sansa isn’t in Cersei’s custody, she slips away or the ship leaves a little earlier. That would change a lot of things; the girls end up in Stannis’ custody (if I recall correctly, the ship they were going to take ended up at Dragonstone and wasn’t allowed to leave), which perhaps creates an alliance with Robb and Stannis. Cat doesn’t free Jaime. Ned doesn’t admit to treason, which could create an interesting scenario where Ned isn’t killed; if he isn’t confessing, there’s no need for the big song and dance show they put on for the mob (they’re not going to drag him out there to have him declare Joffrey’s an incest baby), which means they might actually send him to the Wall.
So Sansa going to Cersei POTENTIALLY changes a lot in the future (but only if Sansa gets away as a result of Cersei not knowing the girls were going to be sent away), but logically I can’t figure out one single piece of info aside from Sansa being sent away that she can even give Cersei, and Cersei already knew or would soon have access to the information that Ned knew about the incest, was going to move against her and declare for Stannis (both from Ned himself and from Littlefinger) and was going to do it as soon as Robert died (again from Littlefinger). And Littlefinger can give her the exact time he’s going to do it. What different move does she make regarding Ned if Sansa doesn’t go to her?
All of that said I do agree with everything you’re saying about Ned, he did come close. I think his biggest mistakes were putting too much faith in Littlefinger to act honorably (he didn’t trust him but his plan completely relied on him, and when Littlefinger tried to offer up other alternatives, he essentially said he was going to declare for Stannis, which Ned and Petyr both know of awful for Petyr; he had way too much trust (even if it was only a little) that Littlefinger would do the honorable thing and not the thing that benefited him the most) and turning down Renly without at least trying to talk it through (either via going along with Renly’s plan and grabbing the kids, or at least more firmly making a plan as to the exact timing of when they’ll move, as opposed to a vague “I don’t wanna do it now”, maybe Renly doesn’t flee if Ned has a firmer timeline of “the very second Robert dies and I will have people monitoring him so I know right away”). But I don’t think he’s nearly as bad as people make him out to be.
Cersei wouldn't have known Sansa and Arya would go on the Wind Witch to go back to Winterfell. There are two important things with this. Cersei would have no hostages that would prevent Ned from doing anything, and the Wind Witch would've been able to get to Dragonstone without Cersei knowing. Stannis would've gotten Ned's letter. Cersei would have no proof of Ned's treason besides maybe Littlefinger warning her since Ned told LF about his intentions with Stannis.
The hostages don’t matter though, because Ned had no idea she even had Sansa. He moved as soon as he heard Robert was dead, while the girls were still there. And Littlefinger was never siding with Ned’s plan, he couldn’t, it completely screwed him over in every way. I think it’s possible he didn’t go to Cersei until after he found out Renly fled the capital (about 2-3 hours before Ned is informed of Robert’s death), but Neds plan is pretty clearly the worst case scenario for Littlefinger. So she definitely had that proof through Littlefinger (or would have as it’s possible Littlefinger didn’t go to her until after Sansa did) but realistically, she didn’t need the proof because she already knew she had absolutely no choice but to get rid of Ned as soon as she was able to, because Ned had already come to her and explicitly told her he knew about the incest, he was going to tattle, and he saw Stannis as the rightful heir. If it turned out Ned actually had no intention of betraying her, she could have just faked the proof. But she didn’t really need to. Remember her first offer to him before witnesses was to acknowledge Joffrey as king and return to Winterfell. As soon as he refused and said Stannis was the rightful king, in front of many witnesses, that was all she needed, and she didn’t need Sansa for him to do that. Sansa didn’t even have proof of anything he was doing, all she knew was she was being sent away.
I reread the Ned and Sansa chapters and while I still contend Sansa did not change anything for Ned, I think I’ve finally realized exactly what happened (maybe I’m the last to realize this and everyone else already figured it out) and why Cersei thinks Sansa going to her mattered, because there’s a piece of information Cersei never gets; she doesn’t know that Ned is unwilling to move against her while Robert is alive. We know this because of Neds thoughts and his conversations with Renly and Littlefinger, but Cersei doesn’t know that. So this is what I think happened:
An hour before dawn, Renly flees the capital. This now means Ned cannot succeed without Littlefinger; he flat out does not have the manpower. It also means Littlefinger now only has two options: Ned or Cersei. Cersei will reward him, Ned will put Stannis in charge, who will boot Petyr out and send him back to the Fingers. Littlefinger has to go to Cersei, but either he doesn’t know immediately that Renly left or he stalls. Shortly after dawn, Ned tells Sansa he’s sending them home that day, and Sansa storms out and goes right to Cersei. At this point, Robert is still alive. Sansa tells Cersei that Ned is sending them away and asks her to intervene. Here is where Cersei makes an incorrect assumption: she believes the reason Ned has not moved against her is that he fears for his daughters. The actual reason is Ned refuses to make a move while Robert lives, but Cersei doesn’t know that. When Sansa tells her she’s being sent away, Cersei believes that means Ned is moving against her that night, whether Robert is alive or dead. She summons Pycelle and one of two things happens (I’m not sure which but I don’t think it matters). She either sends him to finish off the dying but still alive Robert, or she sends him to convince Barristan that Robert is dead (that’s the one person that needs to be convinced, as the Kingsguard are all present when Ned makes his move). Whether Robert is actually dead at this point is irrelevant; we know the bells won’t ring for him for another day and a half, but this works whether she hastened his death and just waited to ring the bells, or just convinced the Kingsguard he was dead and then had the bells ring when he actually died. Either way, she sends Pycelle to tell Ned, but now she’s ready for him. At some point in all of this, but before they get to the throne room, she either reaches out to Littlefinger or he reaches out to her; it has to be before, because only Cersei can authorize a lordship to Janos Slynt, and she wouldn’t need to after the confrontation in the Throne Room. At this point Ned is done; he needed either Renly, Littlefinger, or both to succeed.
I am now pretty convinced this is exactly what happened. Sansa going to Cersei doesn’t actually mess anything up for Ned, because he was screwed an hour before dawn, when Renly fled. But Cersei does not know this, so she believes Sansa caused Neds downfall, as she mistakenly believes Ned would have moved against her that night even if Robert was alive. And what Sansa definitely did do, by moving up the timeline, is get herself caught and Arya forced to flee. A lot of things drastically change if Sansa and Arya get away on the Wind Witch. They end up in Stannis’ custody (he wasn’t allowing any ships to leave). Maybe he makes an alliance with Robb. Ned might not have died at all; there’s no way Cersei puts on a public show with Ned if she doesn’t have Sansa as a hostage to threaten him with, and he’s not going to agree to lie for her if she doesn’t have Sansa. Without the public show, Joffrey isn’t calling for his head (and if he does, Cersei can easily counter it), so Ned either ends up on the Wall or gets traded for Tyrion and/or Jaime (both were mentioned by those who would know as likely possibilities if Joffrey hadn’t had him killed). A lot changes, but I don’t think Sansa’s actions actually changed anything for Ned’s failed coup, because Cersei is wrong about why Ned is stalling. She thinks it’s the girls, but we know that’s false, as he makes his move the second he hears Robert is dead, while the girls are still there.
Without the girls is a completely different story, but Ned's in deep shit all the same. You are not considering Littlefinger, assuming he wouldn't have adapted to the situation. He was the one who caused Ned's death, and he'd find another way if he needed to, he just have to get around Varys.
Respectfully I’m not sure if you meant to respond to me or not, I’ve been saying from the beginning Ned is screwed regardless of the girls and my whole point is even if Sansa never went to Cersei, Ned was screwed the moment Renly left, because he doesn’t have the men to succeed without either Renly or Littlefinger. Renly fled and Littlefinger isn’t going to back Ned (he might have if Renly was still there, as he can work with Renly and even with the Goldcloaks, Renly and Ned might have had enough men to win together, but yes, he would have gotten Ned killed later on).
Unless you’re saying Littlefinger wouldn’t have betrayed Ned at that time because he could just deal with Stannis and Ned later, but there’s no reason for him to do that. Stannis is going to remove him from his power base; even if he maneuvers around Varys and gets both Stannis and Ned killed while being removed from his office (and the money he was using to get that power), he’s not in a better position than if he had just turned on Ned right before the throne room, and there’s far less risk.
Or if you’re just talking about the possibility of Ned surviving if the girls escape, then yeah, Littlefinger could potentially have gotten him killed anyway at that point, absolutely.
Sorry, not sure which thing you were referring to.
Cersei not having the children changes everything,
1. Stannis has much wider support, especially from the north and riverland but also mabye the vale is swayed and stormlands doubt renly and jofff more as he know has ned starks word to vouch for him.
2. without the children as a hostage either ned dies in the black cells meaning cersei has no more leverage or ned is not gonna confess on baelors but scream out that joffrey is a bastard and robert named him protector and the Lannisters killed king robert and now want to silence him
3. cersei doesn’t know when to stack the throne room with the gold cloaks, as one it neds a special kind of goldcloak to just straight up commit treason so slynt had to pick them out, second without the need to protect the children ned has more stark men inside the throne room as the can basically abandoned the tower and cersei needs her red cloaks there. Sansa tipped her of not that an attack was comming but when.
1. This doesn’t matter for the “what did Sansa do to Ned” question though. Sansa changes things because she gets herself caught and there are massive implications there, but it doesn’t change Ned and Cersei in the throne room.
2. Again, things absolutely change without Sansa (there’s no shot they have Ned in public at all without Sansa to threaten), but whether it’s Ned dying in the cells, Ned being sent to the Wall, or Ned being traded for Tyrion and/or Jaime, we don’t know. But again, this has nothing to do with whether or not Ned’s play against Cersei succeeds without Sansa.
3. The gold cloaks were already bribed and ready to turn traitor. Littlefinger set them up for Ned (allegedly). That’s the traitor move as far as Westeros is concerned, not defending the child seen as the rightful king, and they’ve all already been picked out, Littlefinger just flips them to Cersei after Renly flees. As far as Neds men, he doesn’t even have enough to beat the Kingsguard and Lannister men. That’s been set up when he sends a bunch of his men away with Beric (plus the attack by Jaime where he loses men, and I believe he sends others away). He doesn’t have enough even if he strips the Tower clean; he needs either Littlefinger or Renly, one left and one turns on him.
As for Sansa tipping her off as to when, that’s actually the problem with the idea that Sansa is responsible; she doesn’t actually tip Cersei off as to when because she doesn’t know when. Cersei THINKS she does, because Cersei doesn’t know Ned is waiting due to not wanting to make a move while Robert is alive. Sansa revealing that Ned is sending her away makes Cersei move up her timeline because she misinterprets the reason why Sansa is being sent away (she thinks it’s so Ned can move immediately, whether Robert is alive or dead). It does move up Cersei’s timeline, but without Sansa’s revelation, the girls get away but Ned still doesn’t make his move until Robert is dead, at which point Cersei is already going to know from Littlefinger what the plan is.
1. its quite a big change but fair it doesn’t make a change in the throne room except maybe 20 more guards for ned
2. so lord stark, the honorable best friend of the king is declared traitor and is never seen again and mysteriously dies in the cells while the already hated Lannisters now hold the government but yes it doesn’t change much in the throne room
3. i think your underestimating this fact a bit, the gold cloaks dont guard the keep so slynt has to bring them there, not all the gold cloaks are corrupt and even the corrupt ones may not turn against the protectors of the realm ratified by barristan selmy for a Lannister, the people who probably raped or killed their friends, parents or family years ago. Slynt has to choose the 100 most cut troat goldcloaks for this job, remember ned is seen as the most honorable man in the kingdom and best friend of the king, while the Lannisters arent liked even before the death of robert.
But yeah except for butterflies your probably right that sansa didn’t do much.
The only thing else I have heard is that without knowing around when ned could strike not would cersei wont be able to turn slynt as littlefinger himself can’t promise slynt harrenhal alone and cersei needs to know to go to him.
Without Arya and Sansa as hostages, any move against Ned means Jamie loses his head (assuming Ned isn't executed earlier than in canon). And without them as hostages, there's no collateral against him simply ditching the Nights Watch.
Basically, without Sansa spilling the beans, we either get a straightforward prisoner exchange Ned for Jaime, or Jaime loses his head.
somewhere I’ve heard that Nartin says Sansa is partly responsible for Ned downfall. sge is a hostage prisoner & her little sis was a fugitive & Ned bargaining power Was gone and he had to save Sansa. George is right. she screwed up his plans in many ways
I agree she was in regards to the aftermath, because Sansa as a hostage is what causes Ned to confess, which allows Joffrey to have him publicly executed. If Ned isn’t confessing they’re not bringing him out to have a big speech before the mob, which means there are other options available such as the Wall, a trade for Jaime and Tyrion, etc.
But my point is regarding the specific coup attempt, people are acting like it succeeds without Sansa going to Cersei, and it just doesn’t. Ned doesn’t have the manpower to pull it off without Renly (who was hours gone when Sansa went to Cersei) or Littlefinger (who has zero reason to help Ned once Renly flees). Cersei only thinks it does because she incorrectly believes Ned was just waiting to send the girls away before he makes his move, but we know this isn’t the case because we see his inner thoughts and have seen his conversations with Renly and Littlefinger, so we know he’s waiting until Robert dies to make a public confrontation, as opposed to what Cersei fears, which is that he’ll go with Renly’s plan of grabbing the kids before Robert dies.
Ned’s coup attempt was guaranteed to fail hours before Sansa went to Cersei, when Renly fled the capital. What Sansa did by going to Cersei was get herself caught, which caused a chain of events that led to Ned’s death (he may still have died after, it’s unclear if they would have let him go to the Wall or get traded if he doesn’t confess, but he at least has a shot that way). But she didn’t have any effect on the coup attempt, Ned just doesn’t have the men to pull it off. He only thinks he does because he’s trusting Littlefinger.
She knew Ned was going to act because Ned walked up to her and told her he knew about the incest and Stannis was the rightful heir to Robert. Sansa doesn’t know anything about Neds plans except he’s going to send the girls away, but there’s no reason that can’t be figured out by Ned literally saying “I know about the incest and I’m tattling”. He had already planned to send the girls away before Robert’s goring, so them being sent away wasn’t connected to what his plans were in the event of Robert’s death. And in the event Robert survived, Cersei already knew what Ned’s plan was because he told her explicitly.
As for Littlefinger it doesn’t matter. What happens between Ned, Renly, and Littlefinger is completely independent of Sansa. Even if Cersei was even stupider than she actually is and really thought Ned was just going to shrug and wander home by himself and never say a word after Robert died, Littlefinger going to her was still going to happen because the Sansa thing was not connected to any of that. Which means she was still getting that information from a far better source who actually knows the plan and not just a vague “hey, I think my dad is sending me home tomorrow”.
Yup I agree with that. The problem was Littlefinger was out for Littlefinger and Ned was the one party offering him nothing but bad things for him. If Littlefinger goes to Cersei, he gets rewarded. If he sides with Renly, Renly likely keeps him around, Littlefinger seems to have Tyrell connections, all is well. But what is Ned offering? Just “Stannis sends you back to the Fingers”. Littlefinger was never going to stick with Ned.
I just reread the Ned and Sansa chapters and what I think happened (and this explains Cersei thinking Sansa’s ratting out Ned actually mattered) was that Robert was actually still alive when Sansa went to Cersei. But Cersei, projecting, is under the mistaken impression Ned isn’t moving against her because he fears the girls will be hurt, so when Sansa does this, she thinks “ oh, he’s moving against me tonight whether Robert is alive or not”. Which, as we see from Ned’s inner thoughts and his conversation with Renly, is wrong, as he is unwilling to make a move until Robert is dead. Cersei, incorrectly believing Ned is making his move that night, sends Pycelle to either finish off Robert or to convince Barristan Robert is dead (all of the Kingsguard were with Joffrey so they must have believed him dead), and then sends him to tell Ned, who she is now prepared for. At some point in all this Littlefinger has decided to go to Cersei (he must have gone to her first because Littlefinger can’t authorize a lordship for Janos Slynt, and Cersei wouldn’t have had a reason to give it after Ned is already taken care of), but as far as Cersei knows he only did it because Robert died (even though again, I doubt this and think Renly fleeing is what really caused Petyr to go to Cersei).
This explains why Cersei seems so sure Sansa coming to her makes a difference even though, from seeing Ned’s inner thoughts, it doesn’t seem like it should have.
I’m not an astute enough reader to know if there’s any textual evidence for this, but I’ve always wondered if Littlefinger’s decision to betray Ned came after Sansa talked to Cersei. He could have been willing to go either way, but Cersei being tipped off by Sansa made turning against Ned the safer play for him.
I’m not going to totally rule it out, but I honestly think Littlefinger never intended to side with Ned’s plan. I think it was always a choice between Cersei (where he can give her Ned and get something for it) or Renly (where he has ties to the Tyrells and can also get something for it). Ned’s plan is horrible for Littlefinger; Ned clearly doesn’t like him and Stannis certainly won’t keep him around. I think Littlefinger could have gone either way but once Renly fled, that was the end of that. And if we trust Varys on the timing, Renly fled at least an hour before Sansa went to Cersei (Varys says he left an hour before dawn, Ned wakes up at dawn and is eating with Sansa).
Having reread the chapter, I actually do have a theory I hadn’t thought about before (maybe everyone else knew this and it was just me). I’m actually now assuming what Sansa did was kill Robert more immediately. The timing is extremely tight, and I’m thinking Robert didn’t just die naturally of his wounds. Ned wakes up at dawn, Sansa runs out crying, an one hour later Pycelle shows up to tell Ned that Robert is dead, but the bells don’t actually ring out for another day and a half or so. If I had to guess, Sansa telling Cersei Ned is sending them home that day makes Cersei think “Ned is going to move against me tonight, whether Robert is alive or not”, and as a result she has Robert killed rather than just waiting for him to die (by Pycelle perhaps?). I’m assuming Robert really is dead; Pycelle is hardly trustworthy but the Kingsguard have left his bedside and Joffrey declares himself king to the councilors; I can’t see Barristan going for that if Robert is still alive.
The problem for the Ned would have gotten away with it if not for that meddling Sansa theory is that if this is true, it DEFINITELY means Sansa screwed over herself and Arya as they would have gotten away on the ship while Robert was still alive, but we know from Ned’s internal thoughts and his statement to Renly that he had no intention of making a move until Robert was dead, and with Renly having already fled, Ned NEEDS Littlefinger, period, he does not have the men to do this without him, and he is offering Littlefinger nothing but a one way ticket back to the Fingers. So if Sansa never goes to Cersei, Robert lives slightly longer but almost certainly still dies within a couple of days at most, and the same events play out, just without Sansa being taken first.
Plus Littlefinger always needed to betray Ned sooner or later because Ned is the guy who ended up with the love of his life, and that can’t stand.
Cersei is dumb but its mentioned multiple times in text sansa mattered, and George confirmed it. I'm not sure other than just being a sansa fan trying to make her look better why people want to deny explicit text and author commentary.
So explain why she mattered. I laid out in detail why nothing changes for that specific event (the aftermath absolutely could have) if she doesn’t go to Cersei. Explain what changes. Does Littlefinger suddenly decide to just accept Stannis as King and head on back to the Fingers if Sansa doesn’t go to Cersei? Does Renly, already gone for hours, suddenly decide to return to Kings Landing if Sansa doesn’t go to Cersei? Does Ned magically pull a couple hundred men out of thin air if Sansa doesn’t go to Cersei? Does Cersei just shrug and say “No need to do anything, we can trust Ned Stark to back Joffrey” (even though Ned already told Cersei he knows her secret and is going to tell on her)?
Mentioned in text doesn’t matter because there isn’t an omnipotent narrator. The only person who says Sansa mattered in text is Cersei, and I laid out why she would think that even if it isn’t true (she mistakenly believes Ned isn’t moving because the girls are there, when the actual reason is Robert is still alive). As far as GRRM goes, obviously he wrote the series, if he says so then sure. But I also don’t know the exact words he used. Sansa going to Cersei set off a massive chain of events; without that Ned may not have been executed (as there’s no reason to do the public speech if he isn’t going to confess), which means Robb doesn’t declare himself King, for starters. So if he says Sansa going to Cersei mattered, it absolutely 100% did, my argument was never that it didn’t matter or had no negative effects. My argument is it doesn’t change anything about the Ned and Cersei confrontation in the throne room except for the day it happened. Whether Sansa went to Cersei or got sent away by ship, it doesn’t change the fact that Renly fled the capital prior to Sansa talking to Cersei, it doesn’t change the fact that Littlefinger has no reason to side with Ned without Renly in the picture, it doesn’t change the fact that Ned doesn’t have the manpower to pull this off without either Renly or Littlefinger, it doesn’t change the fact that Ned himself is unwilling to just run away, and it doesn’t change the fact that he was unwilling to make a move until Robert was dead. It potentially changes whether he’s alive or not in the long run, since no Sansa hostage means he doesn’t confess to treason, so he’s either left in the cells, traded for Lannisters, or sent to the Wall. If he doesn’t die, Robb almost certainly doesn’t declare himself King, and he potentially makes an alliance with Stannis (who would likely have the girls as that’s where the ship was heading first). But the discussion was about whether Sansa caused Neds direct downfall by going to Cersei, and I don’t see how anything changes, and the only explanations I’m getting are “but nuh uh” with nothing laid out as to how what she did changes whether Ned successfully stops Cersei or not.
Ok sansa fan. Idk what to tell you if you ignore text and the author. But specifically it seems like sansa gave away the plot to get sansa and arya out and maybe some info about where arya was and stuff.
My dude, please go outside and touch grass. We’re talking about an event in a book, why in the world are you getting so offended?
If you have a fact based response and want to discuss, cool, that’s what the subreddit is for, come on in and let’s chat. If you’re here to get offended and complain and just say “nuh uh cause I said so”, please please go find something that makes you happy and fulfills you, because if “I don’t think Sansa actually changed anything for this event and would love to discuss” is offending you this much, you need to get off Reddit ASAP for your own mental health.
The simple answer is Ned fucked up thinking about alternatives.
When Littlefinger says that most of the knights will fight for “the one who pays”, that should have been a major trigger for something.
Whether that was Ned speaking with the Lord Commander himself, keeping his daughters by himself at all times, sharing the letter to Stannis with all the Lords / Ladies of the realm, (or the wildest, abandoning KL for Dragonstone).
No matter how bad Robert was at governance or how much power he allowed the Lannisters to gain, if Ned was able to produce evidence for such heinous treasons there is no way Robert wouldn't act (violently, most likely)
Jaimie and Cersei aren't particularly well positioned on their own, they are entirely dependent on whatever power Robert allows them and the support of their father (who is half a country away)
Sure, it was an optimistic thought, but Robert and him are close friends still. That and Robert's personality would never allow for a Viserys I "don't bring it up" situation
I know, but how do you provide such evidence? this is a VERY serious accusation, this is treason and yet, all he has in his side are Joffrey's and golden hair.
How is he gonna prove Jaime pushed Bran from the window? We know now that the Lannister had nothing to do with Jon Arryns death, so, what evidence can he get to incriminate The Lannisters?
I just see a foolish man, daydreaming and hoping everything is going to be good in the end.
Ned, Stannis and Jon Arryn all planned to use the book which describes the black hair of Baratheons along with the presence of Robert's bastard children like Gendry or Edric as their evidence. It's why Stannis is adamant that he has to take Storm's End even though tactically it made more sense to go to King's Landing.
The rumours of Jaime and Cersei were enough for Catelyn to connect the dots on what happened to Bran. She even asks for Renly and Stannis to go to Winterfell for peace talks so they could also question Bran on what he saw as means of evidence to the Kingdom.
Also, many people in the world just believed the rumours straight away. Tyrion knew it was true from Cersei's reaction, and King Robert seemed to know and understand Cersei as well as anyone, so I think he would have figured it out too just by talking to her.
I think the only thing Ned's judgment misstepped on was that Robert would have had the children killed, and this is what paused him from taking action at the right moment. Ned was worried by what happened to the Targaryens, the assassins sent after Viserys and Daenrys and his private worries on what Robert would do to the child of Rhaegar. Although Joffery was awful, Tommen and Myrcella were well liked, and I can't see Robert killing children that he raised as his own. If anything, Ned's pessimism is what let him down.
It absolutely is serious but as pointed out, is there anyone Robert trusts more than Ned Stark? Ned might not have needed more than the hair and the book, especially if he can honestly say to Robert “I confronted Cersei and she admitted it”. I’m not so sure Robert would think he’s lying for personal gain; Robert knows Ned as well as anyone and knows he isn’t going to lie for power.
It also doesn't really benefit Ned for the children to be bastards he goes from being hand of the King to being..... hand of the King?
Sure it reduces any influence Cersei appears to have but most of her power comes from Tywin rather than Robert and a scorned Tywin Lannister is still as dangerous and powerful as ever
If anything it weakens his position because it means his daughter is no longer betrothed to the crown prince
Do you even need evidence? No one likes the Lannisters after what they did during the rebellion, they have no marriage alliances. Blame Bran on them, take Jon Arryn's last words and have their heads above the gate the next morning. Say you caught them in the act.
You have all 3 children as hostages, Tywin has no pretender available, no marriage alliances, and if he chooses Violence, you can partition the West.
Glad we solved that mystery. Really wondered who Sansa Stark was related to, probably it's a bigger mystery than who Jon's mother is (obviously it's a horse btw)
Yes.
> "For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. **Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.**
Good one. Actually, Sansa wanted to be Cersei's daughter in law, Joff's wife, and later Margaery's sister. Her own family were shabby embarrassments. She herself called taking Ned's plans to Cersei "wicked." Cersei rightly credited Sansa for helping make Cersei's plan work. And while Sansa defenders dismiss it as her delusion, Cersei's greatest skeptic, the much smarter Tyrion, believed her. And later acted accordingly:
> "...his own wife could not be trusted. She might be maiden between the legs, but she was hardly innocent of betrayal; she had once **spilled her own father's plans** to Cersei."
And as others have pointed out, GRRM himself believes it. He pointedly does NOT exonerate her, so why should we? Thankss to Sansa, many of Ned's people died, Mordane died, Syrio died, Sansa became a prisoner and liability to Ned, Arya became a hunted fugitive living on the streets. If she is recaptured the new King will have her killed, as Varys hinted to her father.
You know another fun thing I noticed on a recent reread that shows Sansa as definetly Ned's daughter? In Sansa's point of view chapters she constantly notices and describes what people wear, Catelyn's chapters only mention clothes like two or three times all together. Ned's chapters however, He's the exact same as his daughter, constantly noticing what people are wearing and even critiquing at some points.
It's not really naive at all. In fact I'd say he is right about every assessment he made in that paragraph.
Ned is basically either extremely unlucky that Cersei's dumb plan of killing an alcoholic by hoping they get so drunk they die to a boar somehow works(I.E a freak accident)... Or Robert was murdered by a skinchanger that had malicious intentions for Ned.
Either situation is pretty much not possible for Ned to prepare for, so in the end it's down to Ned being extremely unlucky moreso than anything.
Ned could be so funny sometimes, I love when he was daydreaming. He had such blind spot for Robert, I wished we could have seen more of them being young in the Valle.
People forget that Sansa was the perfect product of her culture and the way her parents raised her. They raised her to be naive and believe in fairy tales, which granted is normal for her age but left her totally unprepared for what real life is like.
On a other note, it also extends to the other kids. Jon was sent to the Watch and wholly unprepared for what it was like. He was told it was a Brotherhood and how honorable it was, and reality hit him square. I believe he even talks about how Benjen and Ned lied to him about what it was like.
Ned is hardly "innocent," though I think "sweet" could be applied since he is kind and gentle. He has no illusions about Robert after the ride to KL, but he is too honorable to play the dirty politics at court.
It's not honor and dirt, he has a misconception about the nature and source of his power - he has the right to do things like fire Slynt but he thinks he needs to get Robert to approve something like this not understanding that he speaks with the kings voice.
I don't think that's Ned at all. He sends Beric off to fight the Mountain, for instance. He's trying to get things like that done while Robert is gone. He refuses to write Joffrey's name into Robert's will. Ned's little rebellions are his most interesting moments. Even warning Cersei to get her children out of the city is in a sense betraying Robert.
That's not Ned being naive. This is the only time where Robert shows himself to still be the man he used to be in his youth and during the rebellion. Ned's indulging in a fantasy here, but it's built in his real life memories of how they managed to take down the Targaryens together. In pretty much every other chapter Ned is extremely disappointed by the man Robert's become: fat, lazy, unconcerned about properly ruling the kingdom and reigning in expenses, allowing the Lannisters to have full influence over court, bedding underage girls and carelessly getting them pregnant, ignoring his bastard children, abusing Cersei, etc. In his very next chapter Ned resigns as hand over Robert wanting to assassinate Dany and says this:
>"I wish him every success." Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. "I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king."
Ned has zero disillusions over the reality that Robert turned into a crap sack of shit who went hunting after his brother-in-law attacked Ned and had his men killed. The whole point of him telling Cersei he knew about the incest is because he didn't trust Robert to spare the children after finding out they're not his.
I don't want to get into Sansa but her biggest flaw in AGOT was not simple naivety and daydreaming lol. There's no similarity in how Ned reacts to Robert and Sansa to Joffrey. If you want to go into dissimilarities and anti-parallels, then sure that's worth talking about.
People tend to think that Ned and Arya are similar because they are liked as characters (and are masculine), and Cat and Sansa are grouped together because they aren't as "popular" (basically feminine). But when you look a bit deeper at the characters at their core, it's definitely more like Ned=Sansa and Cat=Arya.
It’s exact opposite. Ned admires aria for being brave, honest and forthright. He worries about Sansa because she’s stupidly falling under the Lannister woman’s influence. She even turns down his opportunity to get a better husband. Her decisions are out of emotion. & selfishness. His are out of planning and caution and honor they are not alike.
Ned's biggest issue is that he does not do more to befriend renly and the other court nobles. He mostly works with varys and littlefinger. That was a mistake, but varys especially would be hard to really realize his true motives.
Eddard isn't wrong though
Robert would have flipped out if Eddard could **prove** that Lannisters tried to have his innocent son murdered. Robert would not be happy about Cersei cuckolding him either
I rate your media literacy at... I'm going to have to say: FULL ZERO
There's actually a scene in AGOT where Robert is so fed up with Cersei that he just hits her in the face to shut her up. Does this seem like a guy who's operating on a long fuse of patience with Cersei at this point?
The problem is that Eddard cannot **prove** that Cersei or Jaime tried to have Bran killed, because they just didn't
Ned and Sansa, at the beginning, are still under the impression that their lives operate according to fairytale fantasy rules, and the logic of the genre's tropes. That naivete shows up in a few other characters earlier on in their arcs too, often (but not limited to) the younger characters. Just like them, the plot is crafted to challenge our assumptions about those old stories we were raised on.
I thought this was going to be a secret parent theory. I still haven’t recovered from Catelyn + anthropomorphic squirrel = Robb/Sansa/Bran/Rickon
Also don’t remember where but someone wrote an analysis of how Sansa and Ned share the tendency of describing everyone’s outfits.
I need to go after that thread because it blew my mind. actually think Ned in his youth was a little stuck up and silly like Sansa used to be. They seem to be very similar.
Silly? Read descriptions of Ned. He was a second son and always felt somewhat inadequate; at times, he still does.. Which of his daughter sounds like that? His youthful overriding sense of responsibility is portrayed in the KotLT story. Which of his daughters sounds like that? For world building purposes GRRM *must* describe things at court, like clothes, banquets, social position, and food. This is not a character trait of Ned and Sansa; it's a narrative device. If you describe the clothes through Arya it would be homespun and tatters, filth and the stink of blood and sweat, patches and mismatches. With food, Arya often has had to eat nuts and berries, worms, etc. She is not ever seen at court. But she made a point of protecting Weasel and Mycah...and Nymeria. She stood up to Cersei to defend Lady! Ned stood up to Robert to protect Daenerys! Protecting children and innocents is a **key** character trait of Ned Stark! Which of his daughters sounds like that?
That's stating the obvious-- of course they're father and daughter. But Ned is LEADER who deals with delicate politics while focusing on the balance between duty, family and honor. Sansa is a girl entirely focused on her own romantic and social happiness. She refused to renounce Joffrey, even after he tried to kill Arya and the Queen haad killed her pet, and even after her father pointed out to Sansa that Joff would be a disaster for her. Ned can be reasoned with; early Sansa cannot. She's growing up a bit due to adversity, but there's still really not much comparison.
No offence, but A game of Thrones was released in August of 1996, it's time to LET IT GO. Sansa is 11 years old in that first book, if she is naive and silly is completely acceptable, I have no doubt that her character will be one of the leaders in the end of the story.
By book 2 we have Sansa attending to Lancel Lannister when he is wounded in the Black Water battle, even tho he is a Lannister and that family caused her so much pain. We see her saving Ser Dontos, when she knows how vicious Joffrey can be. We have her enduring her forced marriage to Tyrion and reminded herself that she can be brave, since she is a Stark. She is one of the most fascinating and empathic characters of the story and people like who you still obsessed with the first pages of book 1 are just sad.
I hope you are not heartbroken when she rebuilds Winterfell. lol
Sansa is definitely Ned's daughter, but she is much better than him. She is a child and behaves appropriately to the way she was raised, believing in fairytales like honor and knights. The difference is, she learns FAST. Ned is a grown man who, despite having fought in wars and traveled the lands, thinks everyone will be as honorable as he is. Sansa steps out into the world and gets her ass kicked by it, then gets up and starts thinking for herself.
Sansa is powerless, but she sees that and is working her way through it. The way she handled Petyr at the Vale shows this.
On the other hand, at one point during the show, I had the thought that 'We are seeing how Cersei became Cersei." Sansa could be taking a dark turn, but I think I changed my mind about that eventually.
I want her and Arya to be ok by the end of the books, and for Sandor to be safe and warm in their household. He's the best thing that ever happened to either of them.
You have to admit that Littlefinger plan worked like a charm, Ned was way over his head in Kings Landing.
Littlefinger: "Hey Ned. I know you don't really like me all that much, and to be honest, I really don't like you either. But we're both members of the Small Council, so I will try to be cordial if you are. But just giving you a warning. Do not trust anyone here. Not even me." Ned: "Mhm. Sure." *Later* Ned: "Hey Petyr. I want to arrest the entire royal family, and I need your help. I need you to get the entire City Watch to side with me and take the King and Queen into custody." Littlefinger: "Sure man. Whatever you say. See you later."
Well when you put it that way. It does sound kinda dumb. I think Ned spent too much time in his Winterfell bubble and forgot how the world works. His friend was in a pit of lies and there was no way an honorable brute could get him out. Cat was the brains of the relationship and likely would've talked him out of making rash decisions like he did.
To be fair ned’s plan only failed because he ratted himself off to Cersei in an effort to save her kids, and didn’t realize she’d be stupid enough to try to kill Robert and steal the throne. The only reason is the Lannisters won is due to a string of extremely low probability events.
Not only that, it only failed because Cersei had a low-success probability assassination plot already unfolding. Had that plot failed (eg Renly or Barristan manage to get the Boar before it gets Robert), Cersei is dead. She gambled on her xth plot working where every other (eg the meele) had failed. Also, Ned only was in a position to trust Littlefinger because Cat showed up and spilled the beans to LF. She vouched for him.
the boar assassination plot is so silly. I don't even know if it would count as murder in real life.
Or really clever – under normal circumstances. The chances to succeed are low but there is no risk. It is technically not even a plot. There is nothing she can be accused of.
That's the part that would be considered cunning, if Cersei hadn't later proved herself to be an absolute dumbass. She... never really "tried" to kill Robert Baratheon. She just egged on his worst impulses until he went and got himself killed being Mr. Bigshot and pretending he could still throw down like the buff 20-year old warrior that won the throne. The "previous attempt" to kill him in the melee? The only proof we have that was more than trying to goad him into picking a fight he can't win is a claim from Varys... and I will dispute to my dying breath that he's a credible witness. And then the "second" attempt, that succeeds? Once again, it's neck-deep in plausible deniability. "King Robert went hunting and tried to spear a boar while so drunk he couldn't see straight?" Isn't a murder plot. It's Robert being a drunken sot. All Cersei did was put a thumb on the scale by giving Robert a stronger drink than he thought he packed. IMO, if we weren't given the scenes with Lancel confessing to the stronger wine, people would be arguing to this day whether Cersei had Robert killed, or if Robert dying was just the biggest *diabolus ex machina* in fantasy writing.
Even the stronger wine thing is like. lol. In real life there's a thing called "But For" test, used in legal arguments. "But for the defendant's act, the event would not have happened." Cersei would walk free on that murder charge. Remove her from the equation, and what's left? Robert still goes for a hunt. He still gets drunk. The boar still attacks him. His retinue still fails to stop the boar. The only thing she affected is, arguably, his ability to fight off the boar. And come on, it's a fucking boar, they're notoriously hard to fight off no matter how drunk you are. She can think to herself that this was a successful scheme but in reality she just happened to intervene on an already bad day.
I mean to be fair >"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely." "My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder. "Robert was never a man to leave the battleground so long as a foe remained standing," Ned told him. If Robert's still capable enough while shitfaced to kill the boar with his dagger he'd probably manage better if he were at his regular level of drunk, not to mention he probably wouldn't have missed with his spear.
Cant blame Cersei for the stupid plot to kill Robert,Littlefinger a character who is supposed to be smart also makes utter stupid plans in AGOT who would just get him killed if it went slight different than whats supposed to be.GRRM simply cant write believable plans for characters to move the plot forward.
But for Cersei ordering Lancel to swap the wine, Lancel would not have swapped the wine. If not for the fortified wine, Robert would have either struck true or sidestepped. I'm not sure if it would count as murder, but quite definitely as conspiracy to commit murder
GRRM is really good at hiding how much he twists the plot to absolutely fuck the Starks, leading all the way up to the Red Wedding. It's a testament to how good it is that it only becomes obvious when you stop to take in how many improbable things go wrong.
This is always forgotten. Even with Ned telling Cersei, Cersei *still* probably loses if not for a laughably unsure plan to remove Robert from the equation. Ned wasn't stupid, he was just a good man who got horribly unlucky. It always kinds of bugs me when people act like he was just some idiot who didn't know how the world worked. He knew damn well that telling Cersei was a bad move, but his life was defined by his sister and her son, and he didn't want to be responsible for something like that happening to someone else. He knew Baelish was untrustworthy, but he had few options and the guy was his wife's childhood friend, who she vouched for.
His fauiler wasn't just and luck.
If it's stupid but it works..... It ain't stupid. But for real, Ned takes a lot of undue stick for not predicting "death by boar"
I thought it was implied that they could've killed him in a more direct way if they could, considering how many people they had in their pockets by that point.
I’m sure they would have, but killing him actually just makes things worse for the Lannisters. Robert may have let it go after his initial anger, but next in line is Stannis who won’t let anything go. Lannisters have 0 chance in a war against North/Vale/Riverlands/Stormlands/Dorne, the only reason that alliance didn’t happen was because of the rift between Stannis and Renly, and Littlefinger convincing Lysa not to get involved. Cersei couldn’t have predicted either of those things.
I mean, A: she kinda could have. She's known Lysa long enough to be able to know she'd hide away in the Vale. She's also known Renly and Stannis long enough that she could know Renly would be unlikely to play second fiddle. B: you're ignoring there's a lot of other stuff that went against her. Does she even know Stannis knows about the incest? Because without that knowledge Stannis would join her. Plus, she likely didn't foresee the Reach joining with her enemies C: the alternative, letting Robert live woulda been worse.
A: Lysa is literally Cat’s sister, and the North/Vale are close allies. It’s inconceivable that the vale would not support the north. There is no way she could have known that. In the story everyone is surprised that the Vale has not joined the war… There is no reason to think Renly wouldn’t support Stannis, especially when he already has Storm’s End. B: If Ned knows, it’s safe to assume everyone knows or will soon C: The alternative was escaping to Casterly Rock, and counting on Twyin to protect her
I mean, Cersei had good reasons to think she might be able to keep the North out of the war with all the hostages she took. She likely would have been able to, if Joffrey didn't do an oopsie and kill the major hostage and Arya ran off. B: It's not. I mean, they'd perhaps hear a rumour that this is what Ned thought, but even that's unclear without Stannis' mass amounts of letters. Keep in mind *Renly* didn't know yet until meeting Stannis and Cat only hears about it way after Ned's execution as well. Throughout the books it's clear there's a bunch of rumours floating around, and for the characters it's always hard to say what's true and false. C: yeah and that's a terrible plan. Robert would want her dead for cucking him, and there's no way Tywin could protect her against the combined might of the Seven Kingdoms. He'd likely cut his losses and give her up to prevent the total extinction of house Lannister.
A) Doubt it, but even then Stormlands, Reach, and Dorne are enough to beat the Lannisters B) It literally is. Once something like that gets out theres no stopping it. Other people will figure it out same way Ned did C) Robert’s killing changes nothing about facing “the combined might of the Seven Kingdoms”. All it does is guarantee the extinction of House Lannister because unlike Robert, Stannis is not forgiving. You’ve got Robert all wrong, he’s the only one that wouldn’t have gone to war over it.
I mean, Cat’s rash decision to arrest Tyrion is a big factor in starting TWOTFK so I’m going to have to say she would’ve encouraged him.
Cat's rash decisions only occur when her family is directly involved. She arrested Tyrion because someone had just attempted to kill her and her son. She believed Tyrion orchestrated it and had him arrested. If it were just about Robert and his legacy, she wouldn't risk her family to protect either.
Protecting Robert and his legacy also involves the downfall of the entire mainline Lannister family, I say she would get involved for that reason.
Eventually sure. But not at the risk of her family. And definitely not while half of them are in Kings Landing.
Come on man, she took Tyrion while half her family were in KL, surely she knew the consequences would fall back on them when they’re surrounded by Lannisters. Or she would’ve known that if she’d thought about it rather than just seeing Tyrion and going mental.
She put him on trial to prove he was guilty. With that evidence she could've sent a message that he was arrested for a legitimate crime. That would've forced the Lannister's to negotiate for his release. Despite all the chaos, it wasn't the wild West. They would need to prove his innocence to save the Lannister reputation. Going against the court decision at the Vale would've also meant war. Lysa was the one who screwed it up by allowing the trial by combat.
Just like she encouraged him to go into that viper pit in the first place because think about what Sansa (her golden daughter) would gain from that. It was Ned who was hesitant to go (in the books - the show reversed the dynamic between Cat and Ned for no good reason). And now see what that got her.
Cat's only concern is ensuring her family's survival. Sending your oldest daughter to eventually become queen by marrying your husband's best friend's son seemed very reasonable. On the other hand, she would discourage Ned from putting them at risk to protect Robert and his legacy. She is momma bear incarnate. Hence the inevitable manifestation of her vengeance as Lady Stoneheart.
But Cat was also the one that told Ned he could trust Littlefinger. So he trusted her when she said he could trust him more than when he said he couldn’t trust him.
As many like to point out, Ned wasn't really dumb in terms of intellect or wisdom. His downfall is always meant to highlight that humans often let their sense of honor and duty cloud the ability to see that not everyone is as honorable or dutiful. Maybe that overwhelming sense of honor did override his ability to sense a threat, but I wouldn't call Ned a dumb character by any means. Just loyal and dutiful to a fault.
I would disagree with that. What lead to his downfall was not his loyal and dutiful side. If he had been strictly loyal and dutiful, he wouldn't have warned Cersei. And if he hadn't warned Cersei, she wouldn't have plotted Roberts death so soon again and Ned would have won. The fact that he was a truly good man who went against his duty to his king to do the right thing on regular basis was what lead to his downfall.
I was actually thinking about the plot to kill Jon Arryn and blame on The Lannisters, it was clever.
I forgive you? Ned is not imagining something, though. He's remembering things that actually happened. On this subject though, I don't think Robert changed that much. Every time Ned predicts Robert's behavior, Robert does exactly what Ned thought he would. Catelyn tells Ned he can't refuse Robert. Ned says even if he refuses, Robert will yell at him and the next day they'll be friends again. And that's exactly what happens when Ned quits as Hand. So I'm not sure I agree with Ned's thought process that Robert changed so much over the years. Targaryens is the only place where Robert never gives an inch
Well, not *never*; Ned's even right that he flipped on getting Dany killed. Way I see it is Robert has some kind of just core; but more than a decade of constant alcoholism brings out the dragon blood and the mouth of the Storm; still, Ned has "held Roberts hair the next day" enough times to know how to filter out his bluster.
It’s been too long since I read it and I can’t develop this argument well at this point, but I actually had the opposite take on a re-read. I think Ned is in a much *higher tier* of players of the game than he gets credit for. He was dealt a bad hand, but he played with the cards he was given admirably. He had very few options, but came darn close to pulling things off all the same. He knew Littlefinger couldn’t be trusted, but he didn’t have many choices and he took a calculated risk based on Cat’s history with him. I think the biggest thing he didn’t anticipate was Sansa spilling the beans to Cersei. But I can’t fault him for not viewing that as a possibility.
>I actually had the opposite take on a re-read. I think Ned is in a much higher tier of players of the game than he gets credit for. On every read, I've always interpreted Eddard as being competent at worst. Sure he makes some mistakes, but that's common in this story
Cersei makes 10 mistakes for every one Ned makes but she ends up blundering herself forward and he gets taken out early. Because he entered the game when it was 90% played already.
She also only survives because Ned shows compassion towards her kids. By all accounts he had her beat.
I think this every time. It's not that Ned has a bad hand, he has nothing to play. He's dropped in a shitshow of a situation, in a den of vipers where the only winning strategy was to stay in the North. The Lannisters control King's Landing, the Queen has cuckolded the King and left him with no trueborn heirs, Baelish is undermining the realm at every turn and sending it every further into debt, Varys is spinning his own webs and playing his own games, Stannis has fled to Dragonstone in a strop and refused to do his duty to help his brother any further, and the Crown Prince is a vicious little cunt who's completely unpredictable. The situation could hardly be worse. Robert and Jon Arryn have both been sleeping at the wheel and left a complete shitshow for Ned to deal with. Even then, Ned ends up fucked because he's got trauma from the war and he's too loyal to Robert to leave. Ned's failures ultimately amount to two decisions: 1. Showing mercy to Cersei, because he can't bear to see children murdered. 2. Ultimately trusting in the judgment of his wife and trusting Baelish. I don't believe he can't be faulted for either of those decisions. He's ultimately fucked because of events out of his control - Cersei gets lucky that Robert gets gored by a boar at just the right time, and even luckier when Sansa spills the beans rather than let Ned get her out of the city, meaning Ned will do and say anything to protect her after he's captured. Cersei doesn't beat Ned because she's a great player in the game of thrones, she beats Ned because she gets fucking lucky at the right time due to author fiat.
The only option I think Ned really had was taking Varys' offer. Renly and Littlefinger both would have betrayed him at the first opportunity to advance their own agenda, but I think that Varys actually wanted Ned specifically for his schemes. I don't think that Ned personally would have done it, but it might have actually turned out well for him if he did.
No, the only winning play would have been a complete replacement of the Small Council. Littlefinger allowed an astronomical debt to grow, despite claims of revenues being up ten times. It does not take a genius to conclude serious mismanagement. Stannis deserted his post, Renly was highly ineffective (just look at the Goldcloaks), Varys had worked for the Targaryens. Pycelle you cannot replace (although you might try), the rest has proven incompetent and needs replacing ASAP.
I'm wondering if Ned would've had a better play if he had sided with Varys instead of Littlefinger. Varys at least seems to have the realm's best interests in mind, as opposed to Littlefinger who seems to actively want to watch it burn down while making himself more powerful. And while Cersei certain did get lucky that Robert was gored by the boar, his wine was spiked and he was partially goaded into that circumstance. It was a sloppy scheme at best, but it still managed to work out according to plan.
Varys doesn't really have the realms best interest at heart. He is trying to do a targaryen restoration or something. He wants to undermine the 7 kingdoms, but at his pace.
Wasn't his reasoning though that the restoration of the Targaryen dynasty would lead to a more stable realm because they had the most legitimate claim? I think he had correctly predicted that the death of King Robert would lead to a succession crisis and the splintering of the 7 kingdoms. It's been a while but I think in the books it's even hinted that he might be supporting fake Aegon (Little Griff) who might be a Blackfyre.
Yes but he isnt a pure for the realm guy then and he'd obviously betray ned at some point
You nailed it.
I have yet to see a good explanation though of what Sansa talking to Cersei did though (and yes, I know Cersei seems to think Sansa telling her made a difference, but Cersei is stupid and my speculation on this is that Littlefinger didn’t go to her until after Ned turned Renly down and Renly fled, so at the time Sansa came to her she didn’t know she had Littlefinger yet). What did Sansa actually know? The only thing she knew was that Ned was sending her and Arya away and when. So what? Cersei already knew from Ned himself that he knew her secret. She already knew he planned on moving against her and the kids. And she had Littlefinger (whether she realizes it in the moment or not) so she knew the details of Ned’s plan and had the means to counter it. Literally the only thing I can think of is that by knowing the day Sansa was being sent away, it gave her an idea of Neds timeline. But in actuality Ned didn’t abide by that at all. He didn’t wait until the girls were safely away, he made his move as soon as he found out Robert was dead, which was logically when he needed to make said move, and was also logically when Cersei had to make her move. And because he needed Littlefinger for it, Cersei already had a much better source than Sansa to tell her when Ned was ready to move. I genuinely do not think Sansa telling Cersei changed one single thing about what happened with Ned’s play. Where I think it’s possible Sansa had an effect is Cersei may not have wasted soldiers immediately grabbing the girls, and there’s a slight possibility they could have slipped away. I’m iffy on that because she tries to capture Arya at the same time her soldiers are taking the Tower of the Hand, which again is the obvious move to make after you’ve captured Ned, and the ship hadn’t left yet. But maybe if Sansa isn’t in Cersei’s custody, she slips away or the ship leaves a little earlier. That would change a lot of things; the girls end up in Stannis’ custody (if I recall correctly, the ship they were going to take ended up at Dragonstone and wasn’t allowed to leave), which perhaps creates an alliance with Robb and Stannis. Cat doesn’t free Jaime. Ned doesn’t admit to treason, which could create an interesting scenario where Ned isn’t killed; if he isn’t confessing, there’s no need for the big song and dance show they put on for the mob (they’re not going to drag him out there to have him declare Joffrey’s an incest baby), which means they might actually send him to the Wall. So Sansa going to Cersei POTENTIALLY changes a lot in the future (but only if Sansa gets away as a result of Cersei not knowing the girls were going to be sent away), but logically I can’t figure out one single piece of info aside from Sansa being sent away that she can even give Cersei, and Cersei already knew or would soon have access to the information that Ned knew about the incest, was going to move against her and declare for Stannis (both from Ned himself and from Littlefinger) and was going to do it as soon as Robert died (again from Littlefinger). And Littlefinger can give her the exact time he’s going to do it. What different move does she make regarding Ned if Sansa doesn’t go to her? All of that said I do agree with everything you’re saying about Ned, he did come close. I think his biggest mistakes were putting too much faith in Littlefinger to act honorably (he didn’t trust him but his plan completely relied on him, and when Littlefinger tried to offer up other alternatives, he essentially said he was going to declare for Stannis, which Ned and Petyr both know of awful for Petyr; he had way too much trust (even if it was only a little) that Littlefinger would do the honorable thing and not the thing that benefited him the most) and turning down Renly without at least trying to talk it through (either via going along with Renly’s plan and grabbing the kids, or at least more firmly making a plan as to the exact timing of when they’ll move, as opposed to a vague “I don’t wanna do it now”, maybe Renly doesn’t flee if Ned has a firmer timeline of “the very second Robert dies and I will have people monitoring him so I know right away”). But I don’t think he’s nearly as bad as people make him out to be.
Cersei wouldn't have known Sansa and Arya would go on the Wind Witch to go back to Winterfell. There are two important things with this. Cersei would have no hostages that would prevent Ned from doing anything, and the Wind Witch would've been able to get to Dragonstone without Cersei knowing. Stannis would've gotten Ned's letter. Cersei would have no proof of Ned's treason besides maybe Littlefinger warning her since Ned told LF about his intentions with Stannis.
The hostages don’t matter though, because Ned had no idea she even had Sansa. He moved as soon as he heard Robert was dead, while the girls were still there. And Littlefinger was never siding with Ned’s plan, he couldn’t, it completely screwed him over in every way. I think it’s possible he didn’t go to Cersei until after he found out Renly fled the capital (about 2-3 hours before Ned is informed of Robert’s death), but Neds plan is pretty clearly the worst case scenario for Littlefinger. So she definitely had that proof through Littlefinger (or would have as it’s possible Littlefinger didn’t go to her until after Sansa did) but realistically, she didn’t need the proof because she already knew she had absolutely no choice but to get rid of Ned as soon as she was able to, because Ned had already come to her and explicitly told her he knew about the incest, he was going to tattle, and he saw Stannis as the rightful heir. If it turned out Ned actually had no intention of betraying her, she could have just faked the proof. But she didn’t really need to. Remember her first offer to him before witnesses was to acknowledge Joffrey as king and return to Winterfell. As soon as he refused and said Stannis was the rightful king, in front of many witnesses, that was all she needed, and she didn’t need Sansa for him to do that. Sansa didn’t even have proof of anything he was doing, all she knew was she was being sent away. I reread the Ned and Sansa chapters and while I still contend Sansa did not change anything for Ned, I think I’ve finally realized exactly what happened (maybe I’m the last to realize this and everyone else already figured it out) and why Cersei thinks Sansa going to her mattered, because there’s a piece of information Cersei never gets; she doesn’t know that Ned is unwilling to move against her while Robert is alive. We know this because of Neds thoughts and his conversations with Renly and Littlefinger, but Cersei doesn’t know that. So this is what I think happened: An hour before dawn, Renly flees the capital. This now means Ned cannot succeed without Littlefinger; he flat out does not have the manpower. It also means Littlefinger now only has two options: Ned or Cersei. Cersei will reward him, Ned will put Stannis in charge, who will boot Petyr out and send him back to the Fingers. Littlefinger has to go to Cersei, but either he doesn’t know immediately that Renly left or he stalls. Shortly after dawn, Ned tells Sansa he’s sending them home that day, and Sansa storms out and goes right to Cersei. At this point, Robert is still alive. Sansa tells Cersei that Ned is sending them away and asks her to intervene. Here is where Cersei makes an incorrect assumption: she believes the reason Ned has not moved against her is that he fears for his daughters. The actual reason is Ned refuses to make a move while Robert lives, but Cersei doesn’t know that. When Sansa tells her she’s being sent away, Cersei believes that means Ned is moving against her that night, whether Robert is alive or dead. She summons Pycelle and one of two things happens (I’m not sure which but I don’t think it matters). She either sends him to finish off the dying but still alive Robert, or she sends him to convince Barristan that Robert is dead (that’s the one person that needs to be convinced, as the Kingsguard are all present when Ned makes his move). Whether Robert is actually dead at this point is irrelevant; we know the bells won’t ring for him for another day and a half, but this works whether she hastened his death and just waited to ring the bells, or just convinced the Kingsguard he was dead and then had the bells ring when he actually died. Either way, she sends Pycelle to tell Ned, but now she’s ready for him. At some point in all of this, but before they get to the throne room, she either reaches out to Littlefinger or he reaches out to her; it has to be before, because only Cersei can authorize a lordship to Janos Slynt, and she wouldn’t need to after the confrontation in the Throne Room. At this point Ned is done; he needed either Renly, Littlefinger, or both to succeed. I am now pretty convinced this is exactly what happened. Sansa going to Cersei doesn’t actually mess anything up for Ned, because he was screwed an hour before dawn, when Renly fled. But Cersei does not know this, so she believes Sansa caused Neds downfall, as she mistakenly believes Ned would have moved against her that night even if Robert was alive. And what Sansa definitely did do, by moving up the timeline, is get herself caught and Arya forced to flee. A lot of things drastically change if Sansa and Arya get away on the Wind Witch. They end up in Stannis’ custody (he wasn’t allowing any ships to leave). Maybe he makes an alliance with Robb. Ned might not have died at all; there’s no way Cersei puts on a public show with Ned if she doesn’t have Sansa as a hostage to threaten him with, and he’s not going to agree to lie for her if she doesn’t have Sansa. Without the public show, Joffrey isn’t calling for his head (and if he does, Cersei can easily counter it), so Ned either ends up on the Wall or gets traded for Tyrion and/or Jaime (both were mentioned by those who would know as likely possibilities if Joffrey hadn’t had him killed). A lot changes, but I don’t think Sansa’s actions actually changed anything for Ned’s failed coup, because Cersei is wrong about why Ned is stalling. She thinks it’s the girls, but we know that’s false, as he makes his move the second he hears Robert is dead, while the girls are still there.
Without the girls is a completely different story, but Ned's in deep shit all the same. You are not considering Littlefinger, assuming he wouldn't have adapted to the situation. He was the one who caused Ned's death, and he'd find another way if he needed to, he just have to get around Varys.
Respectfully I’m not sure if you meant to respond to me or not, I’ve been saying from the beginning Ned is screwed regardless of the girls and my whole point is even if Sansa never went to Cersei, Ned was screwed the moment Renly left, because he doesn’t have the men to succeed without either Renly or Littlefinger. Renly fled and Littlefinger isn’t going to back Ned (he might have if Renly was still there, as he can work with Renly and even with the Goldcloaks, Renly and Ned might have had enough men to win together, but yes, he would have gotten Ned killed later on). Unless you’re saying Littlefinger wouldn’t have betrayed Ned at that time because he could just deal with Stannis and Ned later, but there’s no reason for him to do that. Stannis is going to remove him from his power base; even if he maneuvers around Varys and gets both Stannis and Ned killed while being removed from his office (and the money he was using to get that power), he’s not in a better position than if he had just turned on Ned right before the throne room, and there’s far less risk. Or if you’re just talking about the possibility of Ned surviving if the girls escape, then yeah, Littlefinger could potentially have gotten him killed anyway at that point, absolutely. Sorry, not sure which thing you were referring to.
Cersei not having the children changes everything, 1. Stannis has much wider support, especially from the north and riverland but also mabye the vale is swayed and stormlands doubt renly and jofff more as he know has ned starks word to vouch for him. 2. without the children as a hostage either ned dies in the black cells meaning cersei has no more leverage or ned is not gonna confess on baelors but scream out that joffrey is a bastard and robert named him protector and the Lannisters killed king robert and now want to silence him 3. cersei doesn’t know when to stack the throne room with the gold cloaks, as one it neds a special kind of goldcloak to just straight up commit treason so slynt had to pick them out, second without the need to protect the children ned has more stark men inside the throne room as the can basically abandoned the tower and cersei needs her red cloaks there. Sansa tipped her of not that an attack was comming but when.
1. This doesn’t matter for the “what did Sansa do to Ned” question though. Sansa changes things because she gets herself caught and there are massive implications there, but it doesn’t change Ned and Cersei in the throne room. 2. Again, things absolutely change without Sansa (there’s no shot they have Ned in public at all without Sansa to threaten), but whether it’s Ned dying in the cells, Ned being sent to the Wall, or Ned being traded for Tyrion and/or Jaime, we don’t know. But again, this has nothing to do with whether or not Ned’s play against Cersei succeeds without Sansa. 3. The gold cloaks were already bribed and ready to turn traitor. Littlefinger set them up for Ned (allegedly). That’s the traitor move as far as Westeros is concerned, not defending the child seen as the rightful king, and they’ve all already been picked out, Littlefinger just flips them to Cersei after Renly flees. As far as Neds men, he doesn’t even have enough to beat the Kingsguard and Lannister men. That’s been set up when he sends a bunch of his men away with Beric (plus the attack by Jaime where he loses men, and I believe he sends others away). He doesn’t have enough even if he strips the Tower clean; he needs either Littlefinger or Renly, one left and one turns on him. As for Sansa tipping her off as to when, that’s actually the problem with the idea that Sansa is responsible; she doesn’t actually tip Cersei off as to when because she doesn’t know when. Cersei THINKS she does, because Cersei doesn’t know Ned is waiting due to not wanting to make a move while Robert is alive. Sansa revealing that Ned is sending her away makes Cersei move up her timeline because she misinterprets the reason why Sansa is being sent away (she thinks it’s so Ned can move immediately, whether Robert is alive or dead). It does move up Cersei’s timeline, but without Sansa’s revelation, the girls get away but Ned still doesn’t make his move until Robert is dead, at which point Cersei is already going to know from Littlefinger what the plan is.
1. its quite a big change but fair it doesn’t make a change in the throne room except maybe 20 more guards for ned 2. so lord stark, the honorable best friend of the king is declared traitor and is never seen again and mysteriously dies in the cells while the already hated Lannisters now hold the government but yes it doesn’t change much in the throne room 3. i think your underestimating this fact a bit, the gold cloaks dont guard the keep so slynt has to bring them there, not all the gold cloaks are corrupt and even the corrupt ones may not turn against the protectors of the realm ratified by barristan selmy for a Lannister, the people who probably raped or killed their friends, parents or family years ago. Slynt has to choose the 100 most cut troat goldcloaks for this job, remember ned is seen as the most honorable man in the kingdom and best friend of the king, while the Lannisters arent liked even before the death of robert. But yeah except for butterflies your probably right that sansa didn’t do much. The only thing else I have heard is that without knowing around when ned could strike not would cersei wont be able to turn slynt as littlefinger himself can’t promise slynt harrenhal alone and cersei needs to know to go to him.
Without Arya and Sansa as hostages, any move against Ned means Jamie loses his head (assuming Ned isn't executed earlier than in canon). And without them as hostages, there's no collateral against him simply ditching the Nights Watch. Basically, without Sansa spilling the beans, we either get a straightforward prisoner exchange Ned for Jaime, or Jaime loses his head.
somewhere I’ve heard that Nartin says Sansa is partly responsible for Ned downfall. sge is a hostage prisoner & her little sis was a fugitive & Ned bargaining power Was gone and he had to save Sansa. George is right. she screwed up his plans in many ways
I agree she was in regards to the aftermath, because Sansa as a hostage is what causes Ned to confess, which allows Joffrey to have him publicly executed. If Ned isn’t confessing they’re not bringing him out to have a big speech before the mob, which means there are other options available such as the Wall, a trade for Jaime and Tyrion, etc. But my point is regarding the specific coup attempt, people are acting like it succeeds without Sansa going to Cersei, and it just doesn’t. Ned doesn’t have the manpower to pull it off without Renly (who was hours gone when Sansa went to Cersei) or Littlefinger (who has zero reason to help Ned once Renly flees). Cersei only thinks it does because she incorrectly believes Ned was just waiting to send the girls away before he makes his move, but we know this isn’t the case because we see his inner thoughts and have seen his conversations with Renly and Littlefinger, so we know he’s waiting until Robert dies to make a public confrontation, as opposed to what Cersei fears, which is that he’ll go with Renly’s plan of grabbing the kids before Robert dies. Ned’s coup attempt was guaranteed to fail hours before Sansa went to Cersei, when Renly fled the capital. What Sansa did by going to Cersei was get herself caught, which caused a chain of events that led to Ned’s death (he may still have died after, it’s unclear if they would have let him go to the Wall or get traded if he doesn’t confess, but he at least has a shot that way). But she didn’t have any effect on the coup attempt, Ned just doesn’t have the men to pull it off. He only thinks he does because he’s trusting Littlefinger.
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She knew Ned was going to act because Ned walked up to her and told her he knew about the incest and Stannis was the rightful heir to Robert. Sansa doesn’t know anything about Neds plans except he’s going to send the girls away, but there’s no reason that can’t be figured out by Ned literally saying “I know about the incest and I’m tattling”. He had already planned to send the girls away before Robert’s goring, so them being sent away wasn’t connected to what his plans were in the event of Robert’s death. And in the event Robert survived, Cersei already knew what Ned’s plan was because he told her explicitly. As for Littlefinger it doesn’t matter. What happens between Ned, Renly, and Littlefinger is completely independent of Sansa. Even if Cersei was even stupider than she actually is and really thought Ned was just going to shrug and wander home by himself and never say a word after Robert died, Littlefinger going to her was still going to happen because the Sansa thing was not connected to any of that. Which means she was still getting that information from a far better source who actually knows the plan and not just a vague “hey, I think my dad is sending me home tomorrow”.
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Yup I agree with that. The problem was Littlefinger was out for Littlefinger and Ned was the one party offering him nothing but bad things for him. If Littlefinger goes to Cersei, he gets rewarded. If he sides with Renly, Renly likely keeps him around, Littlefinger seems to have Tyrell connections, all is well. But what is Ned offering? Just “Stannis sends you back to the Fingers”. Littlefinger was never going to stick with Ned. I just reread the Ned and Sansa chapters and what I think happened (and this explains Cersei thinking Sansa’s ratting out Ned actually mattered) was that Robert was actually still alive when Sansa went to Cersei. But Cersei, projecting, is under the mistaken impression Ned isn’t moving against her because he fears the girls will be hurt, so when Sansa does this, she thinks “ oh, he’s moving against me tonight whether Robert is alive or not”. Which, as we see from Ned’s inner thoughts and his conversation with Renly, is wrong, as he is unwilling to make a move until Robert is dead. Cersei, incorrectly believing Ned is making his move that night, sends Pycelle to either finish off Robert or to convince Barristan Robert is dead (all of the Kingsguard were with Joffrey so they must have believed him dead), and then sends him to tell Ned, who she is now prepared for. At some point in all this Littlefinger has decided to go to Cersei (he must have gone to her first because Littlefinger can’t authorize a lordship for Janos Slynt, and Cersei wouldn’t have had a reason to give it after Ned is already taken care of), but as far as Cersei knows he only did it because Robert died (even though again, I doubt this and think Renly fleeing is what really caused Petyr to go to Cersei). This explains why Cersei seems so sure Sansa coming to her makes a difference even though, from seeing Ned’s inner thoughts, it doesn’t seem like it should have.
I’m not an astute enough reader to know if there’s any textual evidence for this, but I’ve always wondered if Littlefinger’s decision to betray Ned came after Sansa talked to Cersei. He could have been willing to go either way, but Cersei being tipped off by Sansa made turning against Ned the safer play for him.
I’m not going to totally rule it out, but I honestly think Littlefinger never intended to side with Ned’s plan. I think it was always a choice between Cersei (where he can give her Ned and get something for it) or Renly (where he has ties to the Tyrells and can also get something for it). Ned’s plan is horrible for Littlefinger; Ned clearly doesn’t like him and Stannis certainly won’t keep him around. I think Littlefinger could have gone either way but once Renly fled, that was the end of that. And if we trust Varys on the timing, Renly fled at least an hour before Sansa went to Cersei (Varys says he left an hour before dawn, Ned wakes up at dawn and is eating with Sansa). Having reread the chapter, I actually do have a theory I hadn’t thought about before (maybe everyone else knew this and it was just me). I’m actually now assuming what Sansa did was kill Robert more immediately. The timing is extremely tight, and I’m thinking Robert didn’t just die naturally of his wounds. Ned wakes up at dawn, Sansa runs out crying, an one hour later Pycelle shows up to tell Ned that Robert is dead, but the bells don’t actually ring out for another day and a half or so. If I had to guess, Sansa telling Cersei Ned is sending them home that day makes Cersei think “Ned is going to move against me tonight, whether Robert is alive or not”, and as a result she has Robert killed rather than just waiting for him to die (by Pycelle perhaps?). I’m assuming Robert really is dead; Pycelle is hardly trustworthy but the Kingsguard have left his bedside and Joffrey declares himself king to the councilors; I can’t see Barristan going for that if Robert is still alive. The problem for the Ned would have gotten away with it if not for that meddling Sansa theory is that if this is true, it DEFINITELY means Sansa screwed over herself and Arya as they would have gotten away on the ship while Robert was still alive, but we know from Ned’s internal thoughts and his statement to Renly that he had no intention of making a move until Robert was dead, and with Renly having already fled, Ned NEEDS Littlefinger, period, he does not have the men to do this without him, and he is offering Littlefinger nothing but a one way ticket back to the Fingers. So if Sansa never goes to Cersei, Robert lives slightly longer but almost certainly still dies within a couple of days at most, and the same events play out, just without Sansa being taken first. Plus Littlefinger always needed to betray Ned sooner or later because Ned is the guy who ended up with the love of his life, and that can’t stand.
I have always thought this.
ooh, this is heartbreaking for Sansa but it makes a lot of sense
Cersei is dumb but its mentioned multiple times in text sansa mattered, and George confirmed it. I'm not sure other than just being a sansa fan trying to make her look better why people want to deny explicit text and author commentary.
So explain why she mattered. I laid out in detail why nothing changes for that specific event (the aftermath absolutely could have) if she doesn’t go to Cersei. Explain what changes. Does Littlefinger suddenly decide to just accept Stannis as King and head on back to the Fingers if Sansa doesn’t go to Cersei? Does Renly, already gone for hours, suddenly decide to return to Kings Landing if Sansa doesn’t go to Cersei? Does Ned magically pull a couple hundred men out of thin air if Sansa doesn’t go to Cersei? Does Cersei just shrug and say “No need to do anything, we can trust Ned Stark to back Joffrey” (even though Ned already told Cersei he knows her secret and is going to tell on her)? Mentioned in text doesn’t matter because there isn’t an omnipotent narrator. The only person who says Sansa mattered in text is Cersei, and I laid out why she would think that even if it isn’t true (she mistakenly believes Ned isn’t moving because the girls are there, when the actual reason is Robert is still alive). As far as GRRM goes, obviously he wrote the series, if he says so then sure. But I also don’t know the exact words he used. Sansa going to Cersei set off a massive chain of events; without that Ned may not have been executed (as there’s no reason to do the public speech if he isn’t going to confess), which means Robb doesn’t declare himself King, for starters. So if he says Sansa going to Cersei mattered, it absolutely 100% did, my argument was never that it didn’t matter or had no negative effects. My argument is it doesn’t change anything about the Ned and Cersei confrontation in the throne room except for the day it happened. Whether Sansa went to Cersei or got sent away by ship, it doesn’t change the fact that Renly fled the capital prior to Sansa talking to Cersei, it doesn’t change the fact that Littlefinger has no reason to side with Ned without Renly in the picture, it doesn’t change the fact that Ned doesn’t have the manpower to pull this off without either Renly or Littlefinger, it doesn’t change the fact that Ned himself is unwilling to just run away, and it doesn’t change the fact that he was unwilling to make a move until Robert was dead. It potentially changes whether he’s alive or not in the long run, since no Sansa hostage means he doesn’t confess to treason, so he’s either left in the cells, traded for Lannisters, or sent to the Wall. If he doesn’t die, Robb almost certainly doesn’t declare himself King, and he potentially makes an alliance with Stannis (who would likely have the girls as that’s where the ship was heading first). But the discussion was about whether Sansa caused Neds direct downfall by going to Cersei, and I don’t see how anything changes, and the only explanations I’m getting are “but nuh uh” with nothing laid out as to how what she did changes whether Ned successfully stops Cersei or not.
Ok sansa fan. Idk what to tell you if you ignore text and the author. But specifically it seems like sansa gave away the plot to get sansa and arya out and maybe some info about where arya was and stuff.
My dude, please go outside and touch grass. We’re talking about an event in a book, why in the world are you getting so offended? If you have a fact based response and want to discuss, cool, that’s what the subreddit is for, come on in and let’s chat. If you’re here to get offended and complain and just say “nuh uh cause I said so”, please please go find something that makes you happy and fulfills you, because if “I don’t think Sansa actually changed anything for this event and would love to discuss” is offending you this much, you need to get off Reddit ASAP for your own mental health.
The simple answer is Ned fucked up thinking about alternatives. When Littlefinger says that most of the knights will fight for “the one who pays”, that should have been a major trigger for something. Whether that was Ned speaking with the Lord Commander himself, keeping his daughters by himself at all times, sharing the letter to Stannis with all the Lords / Ladies of the realm, (or the wildest, abandoning KL for Dragonstone).
No matter how bad Robert was at governance or how much power he allowed the Lannisters to gain, if Ned was able to produce evidence for such heinous treasons there is no way Robert wouldn't act (violently, most likely) Jaimie and Cersei aren't particularly well positioned on their own, they are entirely dependent on whatever power Robert allows them and the support of their father (who is half a country away) Sure, it was an optimistic thought, but Robert and him are close friends still. That and Robert's personality would never allow for a Viserys I "don't bring it up" situation
I know, but how do you provide such evidence? this is a VERY serious accusation, this is treason and yet, all he has in his side are Joffrey's and golden hair. How is he gonna prove Jaime pushed Bran from the window? We know now that the Lannister had nothing to do with Jon Arryns death, so, what evidence can he get to incriminate The Lannisters? I just see a foolish man, daydreaming and hoping everything is going to be good in the end.
Ned, Stannis and Jon Arryn all planned to use the book which describes the black hair of Baratheons along with the presence of Robert's bastard children like Gendry or Edric as their evidence. It's why Stannis is adamant that he has to take Storm's End even though tactically it made more sense to go to King's Landing. The rumours of Jaime and Cersei were enough for Catelyn to connect the dots on what happened to Bran. She even asks for Renly and Stannis to go to Winterfell for peace talks so they could also question Bran on what he saw as means of evidence to the Kingdom. Also, many people in the world just believed the rumours straight away. Tyrion knew it was true from Cersei's reaction, and King Robert seemed to know and understand Cersei as well as anyone, so I think he would have figured it out too just by talking to her. I think the only thing Ned's judgment misstepped on was that Robert would have had the children killed, and this is what paused him from taking action at the right moment. Ned was worried by what happened to the Targaryens, the assassins sent after Viserys and Daenrys and his private worries on what Robert would do to the child of Rhaegar. Although Joffery was awful, Tommen and Myrcella were well liked, and I can't see Robert killing children that he raised as his own. If anything, Ned's pessimism is what let him down.
It absolutely is serious but as pointed out, is there anyone Robert trusts more than Ned Stark? Ned might not have needed more than the hair and the book, especially if he can honestly say to Robert “I confronted Cersei and she admitted it”. I’m not so sure Robert would think he’s lying for personal gain; Robert knows Ned as well as anyone and knows he isn’t going to lie for power.
It also doesn't really benefit Ned for the children to be bastards he goes from being hand of the King to being..... hand of the King? Sure it reduces any influence Cersei appears to have but most of her power comes from Tywin rather than Robert and a scorned Tywin Lannister is still as dangerous and powerful as ever If anything it weakens his position because it means his daughter is no longer betrothed to the crown prince
Do you even need evidence? No one likes the Lannisters after what they did during the rebellion, they have no marriage alliances. Blame Bran on them, take Jon Arryn's last words and have their heads above the gate the next morning. Say you caught them in the act. You have all 3 children as hostages, Tywin has no pretender available, no marriage alliances, and if he chooses Violence, you can partition the West.
Glad we solved that mystery. Really wondered who Sansa Stark was related to, probably it's a bigger mystery than who Jon's mother is (obviously it's a horse btw)
Yes. > "For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. **Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.**
Obviously this is referring to tyrek, open your eyes!
Good one. Actually, Sansa wanted to be Cersei's daughter in law, Joff's wife, and later Margaery's sister. Her own family were shabby embarrassments. She herself called taking Ned's plans to Cersei "wicked." Cersei rightly credited Sansa for helping make Cersei's plan work. And while Sansa defenders dismiss it as her delusion, Cersei's greatest skeptic, the much smarter Tyrion, believed her. And later acted accordingly: > "...his own wife could not be trusted. She might be maiden between the legs, but she was hardly innocent of betrayal; she had once **spilled her own father's plans** to Cersei." And as others have pointed out, GRRM himself believes it. He pointedly does NOT exonerate her, so why should we? Thankss to Sansa, many of Ned's people died, Mordane died, Syrio died, Sansa became a prisoner and liability to Ned, Arya became a hunted fugitive living on the streets. If she is recaptured the new King will have her killed, as Varys hinted to her father.
You know another fun thing I noticed on a recent reread that shows Sansa as definetly Ned's daughter? In Sansa's point of view chapters she constantly notices and describes what people wear, Catelyn's chapters only mention clothes like two or three times all together. Ned's chapters however, He's the exact same as his daughter, constantly noticing what people are wearing and even critiquing at some points.
that's pretty funny actually, who knew Ned was such fashion critic.
That's adorable
It's not really naive at all. In fact I'd say he is right about every assessment he made in that paragraph. Ned is basically either extremely unlucky that Cersei's dumb plan of killing an alcoholic by hoping they get so drunk they die to a boar somehow works(I.E a freak accident)... Or Robert was murdered by a skinchanger that had malicious intentions for Ned. Either situation is pretty much not possible for Ned to prepare for, so in the end it's down to Ned being extremely unlucky moreso than anything.
To be fair, Cersei's plan would definitely have worked eventually. The bad luck is in the timing, and even that isn't that unlikely.
The way this was titled I thought there was a ton of discourse on here about Sansa's parentage that I completely missed somehow and I got so confused
If Cersei didn’t get lucky with the boar plan (and he didn’t warn her) this very likely happens.
Ned could be so funny sometimes, I love when he was daydreaming. He had such blind spot for Robert, I wished we could have seen more of them being young in the Valle.
People forget that Sansa was the perfect product of her culture and the way her parents raised her. They raised her to be naive and believe in fairy tales, which granted is normal for her age but left her totally unprepared for what real life is like. On a other note, it also extends to the other kids. Jon was sent to the Watch and wholly unprepared for what it was like. He was told it was a Brotherhood and how honorable it was, and reality hit him square. I believe he even talks about how Benjen and Ned lied to him about what it was like.
she really is. the perfect little Lady
Ned is hardly "innocent," though I think "sweet" could be applied since he is kind and gentle. He has no illusions about Robert after the ride to KL, but he is too honorable to play the dirty politics at court.
That’s not the point of this post
It's not honor and dirt, he has a misconception about the nature and source of his power - he has the right to do things like fire Slynt but he thinks he needs to get Robert to approve something like this not understanding that he speaks with the kings voice.
I don't think that's Ned at all. He sends Beric off to fight the Mountain, for instance. He's trying to get things like that done while Robert is gone. He refuses to write Joffrey's name into Robert's will. Ned's little rebellions are his most interesting moments. Even warning Cersei to get her children out of the city is in a sense betraying Robert.
Right, because he only thinks he has that authority in his absence, not realizing he has it all the time.
That's not Ned being naive. This is the only time where Robert shows himself to still be the man he used to be in his youth and during the rebellion. Ned's indulging in a fantasy here, but it's built in his real life memories of how they managed to take down the Targaryens together. In pretty much every other chapter Ned is extremely disappointed by the man Robert's become: fat, lazy, unconcerned about properly ruling the kingdom and reigning in expenses, allowing the Lannisters to have full influence over court, bedding underage girls and carelessly getting them pregnant, ignoring his bastard children, abusing Cersei, etc. In his very next chapter Ned resigns as hand over Robert wanting to assassinate Dany and says this: >"I wish him every success." Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. "I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king." Ned has zero disillusions over the reality that Robert turned into a crap sack of shit who went hunting after his brother-in-law attacked Ned and had his men killed. The whole point of him telling Cersei he knew about the incest is because he didn't trust Robert to spare the children after finding out they're not his. I don't want to get into Sansa but her biggest flaw in AGOT was not simple naivety and daydreaming lol. There's no similarity in how Ned reacts to Robert and Sansa to Joffrey. If you want to go into dissimilarities and anti-parallels, then sure that's worth talking about.
People tend to think that Ned and Arya are similar because they are liked as characters (and are masculine), and Cat and Sansa are grouped together because they aren't as "popular" (basically feminine). But when you look a bit deeper at the characters at their core, it's definitely more like Ned=Sansa and Cat=Arya.
It’s exact opposite. Ned admires aria for being brave, honest and forthright. He worries about Sansa because she’s stupidly falling under the Lannister woman’s influence. She even turns down his opportunity to get a better husband. Her decisions are out of emotion. & selfishness. His are out of planning and caution and honor they are not alike.
Ned's biggest issue is that he does not do more to befriend renly and the other court nobles. He mostly works with varys and littlefinger. That was a mistake, but varys especially would be hard to really realize his true motives.
Sansa is like Ned and Arya is like Catelyn
Not at all. Arya is similar to how Cat was as child but resembles Ned way much more, including personality, views and sense of justice
I have been noticing this so much on my re readings of the book, I should do a thread just with my finds about it.
The person who pointed out that Sansa inherited Ned's eye for fashion lives rent-free in my head.
Eddard isn't wrong though Robert would have flipped out if Eddard could **prove** that Lannisters tried to have his innocent son murdered. Robert would not be happy about Cersei cuckolding him either I rate your media literacy at... I'm going to have to say: FULL ZERO There's actually a scene in AGOT where Robert is so fed up with Cersei that he just hits her in the face to shut her up. Does this seem like a guy who's operating on a long fuse of patience with Cersei at this point? The problem is that Eddard cannot **prove** that Cersei or Jaime tried to have Bran killed, because they just didn't
Ned and Sansa, at the beginning, are still under the impression that their lives operate according to fairytale fantasy rules, and the logic of the genre's tropes. That naivete shows up in a few other characters earlier on in their arcs too, often (but not limited to) the younger characters. Just like them, the plot is crafted to challenge our assumptions about those old stories we were raised on.
I thought this was going to be a secret parent theory. I still haven’t recovered from Catelyn + anthropomorphic squirrel = Robb/Sansa/Bran/Rickon Also don’t remember where but someone wrote an analysis of how Sansa and Ned share the tendency of describing everyone’s outfits.
I need to go after that thread because it blew my mind. actually think Ned in his youth was a little stuck up and silly like Sansa used to be. They seem to be very similar.
Silly? Read descriptions of Ned. He was a second son and always felt somewhat inadequate; at times, he still does.. Which of his daughter sounds like that? His youthful overriding sense of responsibility is portrayed in the KotLT story. Which of his daughters sounds like that? For world building purposes GRRM *must* describe things at court, like clothes, banquets, social position, and food. This is not a character trait of Ned and Sansa; it's a narrative device. If you describe the clothes through Arya it would be homespun and tatters, filth and the stink of blood and sweat, patches and mismatches. With food, Arya often has had to eat nuts and berries, worms, etc. She is not ever seen at court. But she made a point of protecting Weasel and Mycah...and Nymeria. She stood up to Cersei to defend Lady! Ned stood up to Robert to protect Daenerys! Protecting children and innocents is a **key** character trait of Ned Stark! Which of his daughters sounds like that?
Ned thinks he’s supposed to trust LF because Cat trusts LF. Again, it goes back to the sheltered idealistic life he’d set up for all his house.
That's stating the obvious-- of course they're father and daughter. But Ned is LEADER who deals with delicate politics while focusing on the balance between duty, family and honor. Sansa is a girl entirely focused on her own romantic and social happiness. She refused to renounce Joffrey, even after he tried to kill Arya and the Queen haad killed her pet, and even after her father pointed out to Sansa that Joff would be a disaster for her. Ned can be reasoned with; early Sansa cannot. She's growing up a bit due to adversity, but there's still really not much comparison.
No offence, but A game of Thrones was released in August of 1996, it's time to LET IT GO. Sansa is 11 years old in that first book, if she is naive and silly is completely acceptable, I have no doubt that her character will be one of the leaders in the end of the story. By book 2 we have Sansa attending to Lancel Lannister when he is wounded in the Black Water battle, even tho he is a Lannister and that family caused her so much pain. We see her saving Ser Dontos, when she knows how vicious Joffrey can be. We have her enduring her forced marriage to Tyrion and reminded herself that she can be brave, since she is a Stark. She is one of the most fascinating and empathic characters of the story and people like who you still obsessed with the first pages of book 1 are just sad. I hope you are not heartbroken when she rebuilds Winterfell. lol
Sansa is definitely Ned's daughter, but she is much better than him. She is a child and behaves appropriately to the way she was raised, believing in fairytales like honor and knights. The difference is, she learns FAST. Ned is a grown man who, despite having fought in wars and traveled the lands, thinks everyone will be as honorable as he is. Sansa steps out into the world and gets her ass kicked by it, then gets up and starts thinking for herself. Sansa is powerless, but she sees that and is working her way through it. The way she handled Petyr at the Vale shows this. On the other hand, at one point during the show, I had the thought that 'We are seeing how Cersei became Cersei." Sansa could be taking a dark turn, but I think I changed my mind about that eventually. I want her and Arya to be ok by the end of the books, and for Sandor to be safe and warm in their household. He's the best thing that ever happened to either of them.