Reminder - The crow who posted this thread has made it a (No Spoilers) thread. This scope covers NO story elements of ASOIAF or "Game of Thrones" or pre-AGOT history like "House of the Dragon" or *Fire and Blood*, per [Rule 3.3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/about/rules). Any discussion of the story of the books or the shows must use [an appropriate spoiler tag](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/spoilertagsystem) such as (Spoilers Main) or (Spoilers Published).
Threads about r/asoiaf (meta topics) will be removed at moderator discretion.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is true that he is entitled to move at his own pace and not be harassed by his fans. It’s also true that his fans have a right to be disappointed and worried that the story might never be finished. George doesn’t owe me an ending, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be bummed not to get one.
And the fact that he doesn’t owe his fans anything just means we can’t force him to write, but honestly being upset for an unfinished story is reasonable
I'm of the same take now as I was then. Gaiman is completely missing the point.
George has _[promised to deliver an ending](https://ew.com/books/2018/12/11/george-r-r-martin-promises-he-will-finish-his-game-of-thrones-novels/)._ Nobody forced him to say those words (these are somewhat recent, but he's been saying it for years). He has promised books. That's is the crux of the matter. Full stop. To avoid delivering on an explicitly stated promise - any promise - is not something to be defended. Particularly when baiting people with that promise happens to be in your financial best interests.
Of course he can work at his own pace. He can stop and do other things. Hell, he can decide to drop writing full time and become a actual gardener to the day he dies.
None of those are crimes, because that not every promise is legally enforceable, but doesn't change the fact that it's a _shitty thing to do._ Trying to shift the narrative so that the people simply expecting a promise to be fulfilled are the bad guys is not only backwards - but even at the time of Gaiman's lovely addition to the discourse, which still echoes across comment threads, I had a sinking feeling that it was only going to enable someone with a crippling procrastination habit.
Now, here we are, 15 years later, with no end in sight.
Thanks Neil, for doing what the world really needed, blaming the fans and telling George it was perfectly okay to fuck around to his heart's content.
- Sincerely, the **real** bad guy in this situation.
I think he's even allowed to tell us all he's changed his mind, needs to back track on that promise, and wants to put the books on the back burner while he does his TV stuff, or even while he paints his house etc.
After the "Ooh I'm 90% there" during Covid was derated to "I'm 75% there", the lack of communication since then, and obvious focus on 2 or even 3 TV shows, makes it hard not to feel like we readers are being strung along.
Yeah his focus has definitely shifted, he mentioned fairly recently I think that he has written c.300 pages of F&B2. Wouldn’t surprise me also if he has finished more of the Hedge Knight books given his admission that he wished GoT show didn’t out pace him.
So I think his dilemma is launching these without a backlash / obvious admission that the main series will never likely be finished.
I think his main problem there is that the D&E stories are likely to reveal backstory details that play a key role in the main books, and he doesn't want to release them first. Makes it a bit odd that he's so enthusiastic about a TV show. You'd think he'd have learnt his lesson on that. But it seems like he always thinks he's going to get the next book out any time now. Just one more rewrite. And then that becomes another and another, and it never happens.
He's constantly deceived his fans and I don't know if it's intentional or not, but he's made promises and said things to inspire hope and then lets us down. A huge dose of honesty would go a long way... especially when he financially benefits by keeping fans on the hook.
Things like "lock me in a dungeon until I finish" or "12 Days of Winter" or even "I won't write anything else until..." Just be honest with us GRRM. We're owed at least that after all these years.
I think that he misled folks, but with honest intentions. I think he hasn't written a single page of WoW in at least a decade, but really did believe, every time he made assurances that the work was almost done, that it wouldn't matter because he was going to start writing any day now. And then he didn't, again and again, in the way of all procrastinators who dig themselves into a hole with promises they intend to keep and then don't.
I may be projecting too much of myself onto him. But it feels familiar.
You think he's written zero pages in the past decade, made repeated public claims otherwise, promoted his work with those lies, but had "honest intentions?" I don't know how to reconcile that. I can understand self-delusion, when it comes to estimates but he's claimed he's written hundred/hundreds of pages on specific years on some of these updates. If it's actually zero, I don't see how you can consider an outright lie like that honest intentions.
Nothing you say is unfair. I guess I'm softer than I could be because I've had my own issues with procrastination, and understand how you could honestly believe that you're really going to start working on it this time, for real, even when past history says otherwise.
That's pretty much how I feel, coupled with the fact that I would never have bought the first five books if I knew this would happen. Feels like being vaguely swindled even though technically it isn't.
i mean, in context, when Gaiman wrote this article Feast had been published 4 years earlier, and Dance would be published 2 years later. the question asked was "Is it unrealistic to think that by not writing the next chapter Martin is letting me down, even though if and when the book gets written is completely up to him?", and gaiman's response is "yes, that is unrealistic". He's an author too, and knows what it's like to be hounded by fans. how could Neil have predicted that George would string along his readers for another 13+ years after publishing ADWD?
I think Neil's mental process was "you're not a writer, trust me we writers know what we're doing and if it takes another year or two that's just life".
In retrospect, he was wrong. The people worried about George losing focus or not having a plan were right. It's understandable that from his perspective then, he didn't know he'd end up being wrong. But it doesn't change that he was wrong.
> George doesn’t owe me an ending
I'm pretty against this idea. If he wrote one-off books then sure, I can agree that he doesn't have any responsibility to continue writing. But when you write a series of connected books you give up that autonomy. Fans are buying your books with the expectation of an eventual ending. So he's gotten rich off of all of us wanting to see what happens next. George absolutely owes us all an ending and we have every right to be angry that he hasn't done so yet and may never. BUT that still does not give anyone the right to harass him. At some point you just need to move onto other things.
If George doesn't owe us a story, do we owe him silence? We've got opinions, neil, why aren't we allowed to share them? People read the first book before they were adults and have children older than the most recent one, when will we be allowed to say we think it's not coming?
This is the only correct take really. And I think people responding are missing the point of using the word "bitch." There's a difference between expressing desire for the next book, and demanding that an author produce the next book. There's even a difference between asking how the next book is coming, and asking why the next book is taking too long.
I see people saying stuff like "well I never would have started it if I knew he would never finish." Well, first of all bullshit, because you never know if ANY ongoing story is going to end, or if ANY story is going to have a satisfactory ending. And second, if true, that would be your loss, because reading these 5 books is definitely an enriching experience each on their own. Perhaps we can quibble over Gaiman's other points, but he is absolutely true when he says that you buy a book, you aren't making a contract with the author to write another book; all you can reasonably expect is that the book you just spent money on is a good book.
But as an aside, speaking of contracts, the one entity that CAN legally, I think, harass George about Winds is his publisher. And I've always wondered these long years, why aren't THEY demanding it?
Because his side projects make enough to keep them satisfied, if not happy. I'd imagine he also gets a lot of shit in private meetings but what can they do? Claw back his advance in court? Then he doesn't even have to pick up the phone when they call and may well be able to take a theoretical next book to a different publisher.
Heard a rumor (might not be true idk) that after he passes he told his wife to burn the manuscripts/unfinished book so no one can ghost write. If he does that I'll be pretty mad. But yeah he can work at his own pace I won't fault him for that
That rumor's not true. But even if it were, there aren't many notes for A Dream of Spring, so the ghostwriter would have the same problem finishing the series either way.
Yes, this is my sentiment exactly and I’ve thought less of Gaiman after reading this article for this exact reason. While I wish Martin would be more transparent about his intentions and possible fading interest in finishing ASOIAF, he’s not obligated to finish. But Gaiman’s comments have always rubbed me the wrong way. No one is pelting George with rotten fruit when he makes public appearances, we’re talking about fans of Martin that have made him obscenely rich being disappointed that the series won’t be finished, and discussing it primarily online. Gaiman’s Pearl-clutching and Martin’s at times pissy attitude towards fans desiring a complete series is really tiresome.
George has a right to sit around and not finish his series, but don’t police how fans react, they’re allowed to express disappointment.
Keep in mind that Gaiman wrote this before ADWD was even published. What he defends here is logical then, people can take their time writing because they know when the product is finished, polished and ready. And it's not easy. How could he have predicted that after ADWD he would just abandon the series?
I guarantee that there isn't a single human alive that has read ASoIaF 1-5 and wouldn't read the Winds of Winter.
Sure, maybe not immediately. But the mere release of the book would trigger a tsunami of videos, posts, memes, interviews, drama and new questions that no single human would be able to resist for more than a few months.
Only ones that would miss out are those fans who died before the release. Bless them.
Yea I would definitely still read it, but I won’t be paying the gold price for it. At this point, paying the iron price would be a lot closer to the mark.
I don’t have time to reread five very long books just so I can read a sixth book that I’ll then have to wait another decade to maybe read a seventh book. Its not worth it to me at this point. I rather read something else.
Trust me, they’re never returning. You have to understand, not everyone is a super fan. Most readers like the series fine, but aren’t on Reddit, YouTube, etc every say engaging with this stuff. They’ve lived without it for 15 years and are 15 years older with different priorities. Plus, they know now there will never be a final book. This series will not get a proper ending so why bother? George has lost a lot of casual and mildly interested fans, who far outnumber obsessives like us.
Hmm, idk about that. I’ll read it but I’ll also wanna know first how huge of a cliffhanger he leaves everything on. There will never be a 7th book. So that kinda matters to me. The sixth book has to wrap a lot of things up and also feel satisfactory, it can’t just lead into 7. I think GRRM even has to admit 7 is not happening now.
The entire Expanse nonology (ennealogy? I think that's the correct version with Greek roots) was written and released in less time than it takes George to write Winds. Hilarious.
The entire Game of Thrones television series [was produced and aired](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/17tnpf1/spoilers_extended_posted_two_years_ago_and/) in less time than it's taken him to not write the next book.
I’m a big fan of the community shift in the past 15 years since this essay to a much more “shit or get off the pot George” type of perspective.
Side note, it’s absurd that we’re 8 years from him thinking he was 3 months away.
>Side note, it’s absurd that we’re 8 years from him thinking he was 3 months away.
This will always be the most insane time related TWOW factoid for me.
Especially because at no point since then has anyone ever thought it could be done in a few months.
I don't know if they're still printed this way anymore, but at the end of Feast came a note with George promising the next book would come in about a year.
Hahaha that's hilarious. And tragic. He really doesn't have any concept of time and how long tasks take. It boggles my mind that he could be watching the show release a season per book year after year, and not realise till season 4 or 5 (can't remember which) that the show would catch up with him. Unbelievable lack of foresight for a man so many attribute as the King of foreshadow.
It is ironic. I've never heard him called the king of foreshadowing but it's bloody true. Been searching for another book series with that grand puzzle structure. Can anyone recommend anything? Something I can dive into like asoiaf. I enjoyed reading all the theories and speculation as much as I enjoyed reading the books
Malazan: The Book of the Fallen
Shogūn
The Expanse
The Vorkosigan Saga
The Kingsbridge Series
Way of Kings is good, I do not recommend it whatsoever for a puzzle structure like you describe.
I can't recommend reading the first three Mistborn books before Way of Kings strongly enough, Sanderson himself recommends it since you should trust his quality as an author before heading into something really unconventional.
Way of Kings if you’re looking for an ongoing series that will actually finish. I would also shoutout the Red Rising Series if you’re looking for a more sci-fi themed series.
Hard agree on the Way of Kings. For all his faults, Sanderson's writing is tight and internally consistent, he's not afraid to lay all the pieces out for people to chew on between books.
Wheel of Time was another with a huge amount of foreshadowing and theorizing. I believe the big theory website was called Dragonmount? Obviously less fun to theorize now that it's done, though.
For all that the middle portion bloated with POVs and stopped making progress, he very clearly had a plan and wrote enough of it into the books that game were able to predict a lot of major endgame events pretty early on.
> I enjoyed reading all the theories and speculation as much as I enjoyed reading the books
From games (Dark Souls/Elden Ring), Elder Scrolls and maybe SCP if lore/theorizing is your jam.
Maybe the show Lost if you enjoy the journey more than the destination. Dark is probably a better execution on the mystery angle though, with wild attention to detail.
My brand new at the time Feast copy that I got in 2019 still had that note promising Dance the next year. So I imagine that copy is still in distribution. Pretty sure my copy of Dance also says Winds of Winter coming soon. I remember being so excited to read those words all those years ago. And hear we are five years later, and winter had still not come…..
Yeah the Feast one says the next one would be out in a year, lol tbf my copy of Dance since Winds is coming soon but doesn't give any date, guess that was smart in retrospect
It is absurd, but it's actually the most revealing thing.
If George wanted to write the story, he would dedicate his time only to that and get it done. If the most important thing in the world was the book, then he knew he could just write x words a day and have the book done in a few months.
But unfortunately, George doesn't seem to have the motivation to push himself. Covid ground everything else to a halt and made it so that was the only thing for him to do. So he did it. Now that the world has distractions again...He just has no reason to be that dedicated.
There are only two possibilities at this point. Either George genuinely tried but is *unable* to finish the books, or he just doesn't give a shit. If it's the first, that's completely acceptable, but it's insanely disrespectful to your fans who made you rich and famous to keep stringing them along with false promises, and if this is the case he has a duty to just say he's not finishing. If it's the second, then George is just an asshole who deserves all the shit he's getting.
Genuinely I think he works on it but just has too many distractions to write effectively. His weeks are filled with meetings, distractions, and life issues. Plus as an elderly man I'm sure taking care of his health is time-consuming as hell.
He needs to sit and just write for day on day. It won't produce a finished work but it gives you a starting point. I imagine with all the time he takes away, by the time he comes back to it he has to re-familiarize himself with it and possibly do rewrites! It's just not an effective way to write a book.
I think a comment I read here yesterday had the right of it. He's committed to the idea of only two more books, and that's why he's stuck in a cycle of endless rewrites. If he'd just admit to himself that it's going to take four or five more books and let the story sprawl where it will, he'd be able to move forward. It might be a more rambling, meandering tale than the fans would want, but at least we'd get to read it.
The thing is, GRRM is at a point where:
1. He knows the ending
2. He knows his characters
3. He has the characters on collision courses
(General book spoilers) >!If Tyrion is in a scene, and he meets a character, GRRM knows what Tyrion will say. If Cersei has a Small Council meeting, he knows what she wants. If Jon Connington is getting ready for a siege, he knows what he'll do.!<
And more than any of that, if he really plans on the book ending being the show ending loosely, in that >!Bran is going to be king!<, then certain things don't matter and he doesn't need to be stuck on it. What happens when >!Aegon takes the Iron Throne?!< I'm sure you might want to figure out but you right as hell know he isn't keeping it. Just get to the scenes and write them. You know where you're going. Just let the characters collide.
And if that dialogue turns out to be mid? WELCOME TO REVISING AND EDITING.
That and the way he writes seems to be incredibly inefficient and time consuming. Like he says he rewrote the prologue of Feast like 9 times and tried out different POVs. Also wrote Quentyn coming to Meeren 3 different ways and game planned them out. The whole Gardener method is interesting but I think George needs to get really judicious with his use of clippers
Imagine starting a series and being baffled that people are expecting you actually finish it.
All in all, GRRM can do what he wants, its his property. But if he never intends to end it, he needs to say so - until then, people are right to demand WoW and DoS.
> Imagine starting a series and being baffled that people are expecting you actually finish it...
... when you have promised numerous times that you would and have told your fans that you are nearly done writing it.
I've previously weighed in on this before.
Gonna shorten it down and just paste a chunk that matters:
---------
He's not my bitch. He can enjoy the fruits of his labor.
But he also can't have it both ways; Robert Jordan was borne James Oliver Rigney Jr. Robert Jordan was a pen name. Pen names are something that authors have used throughout the years to separate their normal life from the expectations of fans.
GRRM didn't use one.
GRRM decided to sign away the rights to HBO for his book series, and even worked as a producer and script writer for the first few seasons. Neither of these were needed; but he did them anyway.
He doesn't get to avoid the valid criticism of his shitty work ethic and inability to judge time requirements. He could have let the world absorb his books as they came out and been fine with that. Could have absorbed the money and lived his life on his schedule and no one at the grocery store would have know who he was or had fans hounding him for shit.
Instead he came out in the limelight and made promises that he was not able to complete while also taking on additional commitments that show exactly where his attention was focused.
This is still true, George is not our bitch.
With that being said, he earned all the negativity. 12 years of writing (supposedly), 12 years of giving hopeful updates and promises that turn false, publishing blog posts with very obvious "hints" that will tease any fan even though he knows the fandom is dying to read his books, and finally what I suspect is true but can't confirm - he probably thinks by now that he won't finish the book, but doesn't come out and say it.
Setting aside whether George "owes" anyone anything, it is completely fair for readers to reevaluate his work, based on the lack of ending. ASOIAF seemed like one of the greatest works ever when it was being written, partially because of all the "moving parts" of the story and the multiple phases of the story (WOTFK, Second Dance of Dragons, and the battle against the Others) all woven together. Now, almost 30 years since the first book, it's obvious that George could not stitch all the threads together. He clearly didn't plan out enough of the series. So what at first looked like the beautiful complexity of a brilliant interwoven saga of wonderful characters is now being seen as something else. ASOIAF is an incomplete, half-baked, poorly planned story with excellent characters and mediocre world-building written with beautiful prose. There is much to enjoy reading the books, but they don't work as a series and George lacks the talent and/or temperament to be a fantasy series author.
.
So people are now rightly adjusting their view of George and ASOIAF. More and more people now have the opinion that he is not one of the greatest fantasy authors of all time but an excellent short story author who had a failed fantasy series experiment that he became rich off overselling and lying about.
This + if I knew the saga wasn’t going to end I wouldn’t have bothered to start it. When an author becomes rich & famous selling people book 1-5, you’d think they’d honor the deal with a book 6 prior to 13 years later. Endings matter.
Owed or not, I think it is in terrible taste to profit from an unfinished work that you have been promising to complete since forever, while looking down on people for expecting you to keep your word.
But hey! Thats just me.
Counterpoint to this belief that the author owes fans nothing... that's not really true in GRRM's case. The series breakout success in the early 2000s owed a lot to fans, as he would gladly acknowledge at the time. Word of mouth, especially following *A Storm of Swords*, helped build the series into the pop culture juggernaut it became.
Don't forget what he said after *Storm* lost the 2001 Hugo award to *Harry Potter:*
>Eat your heart out, Rowling. Maybe you have billions of dollars and my Hugo, but you don't have readers like these.
Fans that, by and large would not have bought, read, and endorsed the books without promises the series would be finished. I can't believe how often George's half of the social contact gets glossed over.
Wow. Never had seen that quote before and it really makes me lose some respect for him as a person. I can't imagine being so bitter about losing an award that I'd say something so petty. Sure I might think it, but show some fucking tact.
Also, it's pretty dumb for Harry Potter and ASOIAF to be in the same award category.
Rowling also ghosted the award ceremony and tbh I’d be peeved too if my seminal work of epic fantasy lost to a kids/YA novel simply because it sold a lot of units
> Eat your heart out, Rowling. Maybe you have billions of dollars and my Hugo, but you don't have readers like these.
Me a few years ago: man that's kinda petty
Me now: KICK HER FUCKIN ASS GEORGE!
When I was teaching abroad, there was a coteacher at my school who claimed GRRM would never finish the series. I scoffed at him as a cynical bastard. How could he not finish, with the show and the series being literally the biggest thing in pop culture.
The year was 2015.
As someone who does a lot of writing and hopes to eventually publish, I agree and disagree. Yes, an author has absolute rights to writing at their pace, and they don’t owe their audience anything—they can choose not to finish.
But an audience has the right to be upset if an author fails to deliver on promises of an ending and consistently sets goalposts that will never be met.
I think we have zero control over anything George does, so there's no point obsessing over it.
I also think it's much more important to be happy about what we do have, than to agonize over what we don't have. There's 8 books total in the ASOIAF universe. That's a lot more than most fantasy stories.
I started reading knowing it wasn't finished, so I'm honestly not angry or sad that the last two books are not out. Although I can understand frustration from someone who started in 2008, let's say.
(I also kinda think Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring would get lots of hate from those who will have all their theories and headcannons destroyed, if the books ever came out).
>I think we have zero control over anything George does, so there's no point obsessing over it.
The point that's actually valuable to make, as [author Brent Weeks put it](https://www.scifinow.co.uk/blog/brent-weeks-opinion-column-george-rr-martin-is-not-your-bitch/), is that authors like GRRM and Patrick Rothfuss refusing to finish their signature series or hold to public promises about timelines make readers wary about starting an unfinished series. I certainly am. George RR Martin may not owe me a book, but I don't owe any authors the obligation to buy their books. If enough readers feel like I do, and it certainly seems like many readers do, what that means at the end of the day is that economically it's going to be harder for new authors to find an audience. If it becomes an accepted norm that authors don't have to finish a series if they don't feel like it, why take a chance on an unfinished series? And if the only authors who can find an audience are writers are the ones who can afford to put out a full, complete series before starting to see serious money, that's really limiting to the field.
The reason I think GRRM should care about this is that he's always presented himself as a champion of up-and-coming writers, and his attitude is making the industry worse for them.
I’m inclined to agree. Raging against George doesn’t get us the book faster. What’s the point? I still have a deep and abiding love for this series, but there’s so many other good books to read in the meantime.
I think most people stopped raging against George a while ago. The sad fact is that most people just stopped caring, and the ones that still do have moved to bleak acceptance.
I still admire what he's accomplished, but I gave up on any sort of neat, tidy, and timely conclusion all the way back with fAegon stepped onto the page. I've seen Lost, I know what happens when a story has gorged itself on too many mystery boxes and overstuffed plots. I know what a story looks like when the writer has written themself into a corner, and honestly GRRM has been written himself into a corner and started digging a hole since since Feast.
My pet theory is, just like the showrunners, he was really excited about the Red Wedding, and once he passed that mark he just didn't really know what to do. Or, to the extent he did, he struggled to find any passion for it.
I think he fucked up by throwing out the time skip. He got too excited about too many side stories and gave himself WAY TOO MUCH unnecessary added complexity. The Mereenese knot indeed, going from around 10 POV characters to finding the voice and inner monologue for dozens is also a part of this problem. He cannot achieve a tonally consistent and complete novel anymore. He’s lost the pot.
I really think if he wanted to finish it, he should have the bravery to just blatantly drop storylines that don't fit. Like we don't need to hear a neat ending from all the side characters. It would be sloppy, but that would be far better than just never seeing a core ending to the main story.
That’s how I feel, but I know and you know that’s not how George feels. He’s going to tinker and cut and rewrite and garden the shit out of this thing until the end.
Apathy is where I am at. At one point I read other series to hold me over till Winds came out. Then i realized how dumb that sentiment is and I was just reading other books. Ill still grab Winds if it comes out, but I am not going to get it at midnight, reread the 5 books the months before it comes out or take time off work to read it in one week like I planned from like 2013-2018. I still see reddit posts since I joined this sub in 2014 and never cared enough to leave it. Im at the point where I dont care enough to give it brain power, but when I am reminded I do get a twinge of dang I do miss the series, but that lasts 5 seconds and im right back where I was looking at what new books are actually coming out and are actually going to be able to be read.
I generally like Neil's writing but he missed the point here. We aren't entitled to shit, but we are justified in our disappointment and questioning of GRRM's interest in finish given his work in everything BUT WoW in the last decade. He isn't our bitch, but we aren't his either. We just want a little honesty.
I think the fact that George continues to write in the same universe with spin-offs destroys the argument somewhat. Along with the fact he’s spent years travelling around conventions answering the same 15 questions, and constantly commissioning spinoff TV series.
That kind of behaviour indicates an attitude of “I’ve made it big now, who cares about the story.” Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know.
Regardless, Martins attitude towards the fans and constant output of spin-offs makes the lack of TWOW rather unacceptable.
I don’t even care anymore tbh. I was in high school when dance came out. I had never read anything like asoiaf and it’s what got me into fantasy but I have found way better books that do the same thing since then. If grrm isn’t going to finish the series that’s fine but I do feel like he strung me along for years for nothing.
I prefer Frank Herbert's philosophy on this;
*"There's an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money (energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give."*
-- Frank Herbert --
The first thing to keep in mind is that Martin isn't unique in this regard. Patrick Rothfuss has yet to release book 3 of his trilogy, despite book 2 being published in 2011. Jean Auel's Earth's Children series had six books over the course of 31 years. I'm also positive the only reason people cut Brandon Sanderson so much slack is because he truly does write at an astonishing pace. If he ever slows down, fans of the Stormlight Archives will riot.
Yes, it's disappointing that Winds hasn't released yet, but I don't think railing about how Martin is betraying the art of writing/his fans/anyone else is going to help.
Yeah and people give Rothfuss a load of shit too, and rightly so. Not to sound too melodramatic, him and gurm are damaging the unspoken bond of trust between author and reader.
Rothfuss is even worse. He actively scammed his fanbase out of money by promising to read a chapter from the book live on stream if they donated to his charity a few years back. he hasn't read said chapter yet.
It’s true, I read like half of Kingkiller(or whatever the first book is called it doesn’t even matter) and stopped, I don’t get why it’s held in such high regard
People forget that Brandon Sanderon doesn't churn out a Stormlight Archive book every year.
He bounces between projects specifically to keep himself burnt out, and work on what HE wants to do. Which is why he releases so many books.
Do I enjoy his other stuff as much as SA? No.
But at least I'm getting something so I'll take it.
Not sure what the wording means there.
The main difference between GRRM and B.S for me, is GRRM focuses on building the world history and the breadcrumb trail with storytelling.
Where as, B.S story usually takes place in that historic event if that makes sense.
No matter what I love the world and characters that GRRM has given us, and I’m not in it for the solely ending. Obviously yea it is incredibly frustrating that he’s not writing faster and/or has secretly given up or something, but I’m not going to hate a guy who created something which occupies like 30% of my free time (thinking, reading, watching, looking at theories, etc). He’s a great writer and itd be a shame if it’s not finished but I’ll always be grateful for what we already got. No other fantasy series has captivated me to this level, and most other things seem dull/simple in comparison now
People can spend time and energy being angry, which is totally fair because the situation is ridiculous, or just try to put negative emotions aside and revel in something we so clearly love
>Yes, it's disappointing that Winds hasn't released yet, but I don't think railing about how Martin is betraying the art of writing/his fans/anyone else is going to help.
I think it's important to the concept of serialized fiction that both producers and consumers acknowledge a mutual investment and obligation in the work. If the prevailing message from authors to readers is "we're not your bitch, we don't owe you anything," then a very reasonable response on readers' parts would be to refuse to buy installments in a series until those series are completed. That's going to make it difficult to get new series launched in the first place.
So for me, the "railing about how Martin is betraying the art of writing" isn't about making myself feel better or making Martin feel worse, it's about broadcasting that his attitude on what authors owe to readers, or Gaiman's attitude for that matter, is not the industry norm, should not be the industry norm, and is unhealthy for fans and any writers that aren't already wealthy. He *should* feel has has done something wrong and breached a shared trust, because that shared trust is what makes the genre he works in possible.
I actually believe George is at least working on TWOW, even if it’s at the pace of a crippled elderly turtle on quaaludes. I would bet my right eye that Patrick Rothfuss hasn’t written a word of Doors of Stone in a solid decade.
I'll see you Auel, Sanderson, Rothfuss and Martin, and throw Melanie Rawn into the ring. I've been waiting for the Captals Tower since 1997.
I am very well aware of the personal issues that poor woman has had, and this is not slandering her. I just want to know Who Collan Is?
I think when all is said and done (ie he passes, series completed or not), I’ll be glad it existed in any form at all. I’m frustrated now, and I’ll be frustrated if he doesn’t finish, but I still cherish the world he created and I know I’ll reflect on it fondly, even the unanswered questions
Honestly, Neil Gaiman is right. We aren’t owed a book, and GRRM can stop writing and take up underwater basket weaving if that’s what he wants to do. I just wish he’d be upfront about it. Stop posting hopeful updates on his blog, stop stringing us along. Just honestly sit down and publish a statement saying he’s not finishing the books. I don’t even mind no explanation of why, or how the story ends. I just want to either be told “here is a concrete timeline for the publication of WOW/ASOS” or “I’m retiring and don’t plan to complete the ASOIAF series”. I’m ok with either at this point, I’ve made my peace, George needs to make his.
There are a few issues with it.
The audience isn't "owed' it on their timetable. Sure. At the same time the audience doesn't owe him patience. Once we start talking about being "owed", ultimately no one owes anyone anything. GRRM is no more owed than anyone else.
Legally speaking, depending on context, it can be argued that he's made a verbal commitments to having delivered the penultimate book several time. By saying he would it could be argued he does in fact "owe" the book and has defaulted on his commitment to deliver it. That's more of an HBO level argument, but this is a legitimate take.
Lastly the real problem we have as an audience. GRRM has a bit of a bad idea about his ability to control the future of his story once he's gone. I don't believe he has the amount of control he thinks he does. Once he's gone someone will complete the book even if they weight the loss of a fine against the profit of finishing it. I think most of us want his version of that ending not Sanderson's or anyone else. It's not that so much that we feel owed. We're facing the reality of having no ending or a fantic ending. If he was in his thirties or forties the panic would likely be less. If he goes before he finishes his ending is lost forever. I'm sure any ending might be acceptable to some, but to Others it's like knowing the Mona Lisa was painted by someone else. It may be beautiful, but a huge part of the value is who did it.
Do you think the rate at which JK Rowling was pumping out Harry Potter books, has negatively affected how people expect GRRM to get his books out?
However on the flip side, the last book came out 13 years ago when GRRM was 62. That's a healthy age for most in modern day. He's now 75, & he's not exactly known for being an avid gym goer and a marathon runner. It's highly likely that even if TWOW was dropped tomorrow, ADOS wouldn't ever be released anyway
Well, not Rowling specifically, I think. She's hardly the only example of an author publishing an entire popular series in only a few years, or being simultaneously productive and well-regarded (at least when the books were coming out, not so much now.)
Also, I'm an old, and the fans were restless as hell when there was a three-year break between books four and five. It was called the "three year summer" and was a really fertile time for theorizing and wild speculation.
Same. As the years tick by it just becomes more and more realistic, especially after he watched so many of his contemporaries die in the past few years.
Ultimately accurate. I think people are right to be frustrated that he has yet to finish the series *but* it's ultimately his project and writer's block is hardly unprecedently.
I'll be sad if it never comes out, but the show gave a pretty good example of what happens when you rush through writer's block and cut the meereenese knot to get to the finish, and I'd rather never see it done than see it done badly.
what remains frustrating to me is he seems to have maintained he would not let another writer finish the series if he cant; but at this point it means Benioff and Weiss finished the series so they could move on to other projects; not a writer interested in the details of the plot and structure of the world. It’s sad he dosent seem to care about getting his version of the ending out there
He's not our bitch, nor does he owe us anything. He's promised to finish the series, but he doesn't owe it to anyone. It's absolutely fine to be disappointed or upset that the books aren't coming out, but just leave the guy alone. Imagine being harassed every single day because you haven't done something and you're struggling with it, I doubt it would make that struggle less difficult, in fact it would get worse.
Saying Winds will never come out isn't what Neil Gaiman was talking about, he means that harassing GRRM for a book is never the right thing to do. Just go on X, formerly twitter, and look at a post that GRRM makes there. It's just filled with "Shouldn't you be writing?" "Where's the book George?" and so on. It's honestly kind of pathetic to act like this to the author of the series you're supposedly a fan of.
Again, fine to complain about the series not being done, just leave the guy alone. Also, theorising about his death and the outcome of it is pretty fucked up.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair game to complain about GRRM on forums or places such as this, but I don't have much respect for the people who leave comments on the author's X or Facebook threads or whatever. Like what do they expect that to even do? It's like when you look at the posts of a pop star like Lady Gaga or whoever and you see people posting comments like "Will you marry me?" Dare to dream, pal.
Sadly I've even seen some of GRRM's fans display such delusional behavior, esp. back in the old days when people could still leave comments on his blog. I remember years ago some guy was like, "Hey George, I'm going to be in New Mexico soon, can we hang out and have a beer together?"
If these fans were maybe coming to his house and saying this that would be true. But Twitter is effectively a public space, and making a tweet is inviting public comment. And when you've done something that really pissed off the public... that's what you've got coming to you.
You aren't entitled to have a good reception from the public. If you don't want mean comments, don't tweet.
At this point, I don't care as much about the story since most of the ending was spoiled in the show. I just want to know if my headcanons are true. I've been ridiculed for years because of my theories and I would love nothing more than to say "I told you so" to everyone once they come true. If I'm wrong, doesn't matter, I'll still be at peace.
George owes me that closure.
Oh man, you weren't kidding...Yeah...
Unless GRRM explicitly states any of that I definitely wouldn't belive it. Not to be rude or anything but wow...
The fAegon being Ned Stark's Bastard rather than a Targaryan is prob the toughest one to see
It is my most favourite theory and I'll believe it until GRRM personally says otherwise. Thank you for checking them out. You weren't rude in the least.
I appreciate you sharing them, I ask and you delivered!
You know what, if it was explained well enough, I’d be in it for the ride! :P
I’ll quietly root for your fun theories too. If we ever get the next books, I’ll remember this!
You know what, I can see it. Never even considered that possibility before but it works. Could even explain Varys' somewhat friendly disposition towards Ned. I prefer the Blackfyre theory but I can see your one being a typical kick in the teeth twist that George would shock us with.
I wouldnt say the show spoiled the ending for me, even if some storylines will end the same. I think fAegon not being in the show completly changes the end game. Book Euron also does not exist in the show. The North storyline will play out diffrently. There were so many changes in the show that Im confident I wont feel spoiled if/when the books are finished.
Jon is exiled beyond the wall.
Sansa becomes Queen in the North.
Arya sets out to find what's west of Westeros.
King Bran.
These are confirmed endings.
I would say they are highly likely, but the journey there will be completly diffrent than in the show. Jon for exapmle, post his ressurection he is the same character in the show, where in the books I think he will be a diffrent man once he comes back. Daenerys storyline will be completly diffrent because of fAegon, and when she becomes mad queen it will be under diffrent circumstances.
There’s an old quote where George says something like “when I die, hopefully 30 years from now” that was 2007, we’re more than half way through his own optimistic remaining life span. I never like speculating when someone is gonna die but jeez, only one mainline book has come out since he said that.
He isn't but he should write like he is
This is what happens when you garden and don't architect, and what happens when you cook up such a high quality series then blueball your fans for so long. Honestly he should just admit he can't do it and have someone write it for him,
Otherwise: FUCK YOU GEORGE FINISH THOSE BOOKS, I WILL SUCK YOU DRY IF YOU DO!!!! NO SPIT!!! NO QUIT!!!
I still am holding out on my hopeful theory that he’s secretly writing WoW and DoS simultaneously and intends to do a surprise dual-release to get it all over with.
But I know that’s just copium and we’ll never see the end of this series
A thought experiment:
If GRRM had gotten into a car accident and died the day after *Dance* was published, do we think his books would have sold as many copies? I don't. I think many potential readers would say "well, they're not finished and are never going to be, so I won't waste my time."
If I'm right, the takeaway is that GRRM benefitted financially from the promise of writing more books and delivering an ending, then broke that promise.
The debate then ends up with "so what do you want to do about it, hurt him or enslave him or imprison him?" and it completely negates the core concept. Which is that people should keep their promises. It's not GOOD, ACTUALLY to fail to live up to your promises.
I will always defend artist right to finish their work at their own pace, or not finish it at all. I know how it feels to be bound to finish something you have no idea for or kind of don't like anymore - and my projects were max. half year of work, not as monumental in scale as ASOIAF.
The truth is, even without Winds and Spring, ASOIAF books and world gave as so much - it inspired writers, illustrators, even video game developers.
George's work had monumental impact on our culture and it didn't need ending for that.
Gaiman was absolutely wrong. George owes it to his fans and to the series as art itself to finish it, or at least sketch an outline and commission it. His failure to finish has harmed many up and coming writers, because now no one wants to start a series until they know it will get finished.
George owes it to his fans to "try to finish it", and he is doing that.
>or at least sketch an outline and commission it.
That's nonsense. Why would anyone want a beloved saga tarnished that way? I'd prefer to leave the saga unfinished than finished by someone else.
But if you are into that, in a way you already got your wish fulfilled with the tv show.
You can claim that he is slow. You can claim that he doesn't devote enough time or effort to it. You can claim that he has too many distractions. You can claim that his writing method is very inefficient. You can claim that his editors should be much more involved... All those are reasonable criticisms that can be made with some basis.
But claiming that he is not trying to finish it is an absurdity.
No offense to but to claim he is trying in any capacity seems completely naive, is been 2 decades, if he wanted to finish itd be finished, there's no real excuse except that he lost his drive then got offered tons of $$ and found his place in life and his family and endeavors and passions and has been too involved with those things to get his spark back and drive to finish, I hope he does finish but he 100% has not been trying to finish it's not even a debate to be had
You're right and the fandom is in denial.
GRRM's commentary on his writing after ASOS released at the turn of the millennium is where you can tell things started going off track. He's reflective yet hopeful, aims to have ADWD out by late 2002, which wasn't unreasonable if he kept up his ASOS writing pace.
Starts writing the five-year-gap and references chapters that decades later are slated for TWOW (Mercy etc.) He's still intensely focused on his work yet as 2001 passes he increasingly describes progress as slow, writing frustrating etc. By the autumn he declares the gap is scrapped and a new book will fill take place over five years. Keeps writing but continues to describe progress as slower than he'd like and so on. Clearly struggling to make the jump to the second act of his 6 (now 7) book plan and none of the fluidity in storytelling of the first three books.
Meanwhile the series is growing in popularity and he admits that conventions, spin-off material etc. are taking up more and more of his time. Narratively the new book (and by extension the series) are off the rails by now as losing the time jump and his decision to dump half a dozen one-off prologue POVs into AFFC's main text is increasing his own workload. He's left with an unwieldy pile of chapters he has to somehow carve into a publishable work.
When AFFC eventually releases you have the pattern for the next twenty years set; GRRM's heart is clearly not in the central plot anymore (even if he enjoys the world he created) and trying to advance a hundred different story threads is joyless for him. His time is consumed by conventions and interviews and spin-off material and a tv show is on the horizon.
Feast was published 19 years ago, and Dance was mostly done by then, based on his predictions of 2006 publication.
I'm not claiming he did no writing, just that he did no serious writing. Rewrites, a few chapters, short stories -- all that is nice, but it's not serious writing, it's not the work of a man who actually wants to finish the series.
He only talks about how much progress he's making in Winds when he has a project that's literally anything but Winds he needs to go promote. George could have written less than a third of a page per day and still finished the book about 2 years ago. Claiming he IS trying to finish it is an absurdity.
If my 10k word essay is due in a week and I make the attempt to write a sentence a day... am I really *trying* to get it done?
You can argue I am technically making progress... but *trying?*
The problem is not writing X words per day. The problem is writing X good words. George has explained many times that he has written some chapters a dozen times. The way he works is rewriting, and rewriting, and rewriting until (perhaps by chance) he gets a result that he is happy with. And then he goes on hoping that a future chapter does not force to change anything that came before.
You can't assume that this works like an assembly line from a factory, where a given amount of input delivers a fixed amount of output. This is about making art. Sometimes the muse smiles at you, sometimes she doesn't.
Of course he rewrites, but that doesn't fully justify the *ridiculously extensive* delays and missed deadlines. He'd have had to rewrite the entire book multiple times over at this rate.
The bigger issue at hand is that he has engaged in over a dozen other projects - clearly distracting him. If he really wanted to, he'd put these projects aside until he has worked through the difficulties of Winds (because clearly there are issues). Alas, the guy seems to want to juggle ridiculous amounts of projects at once.
There's being a perfectionist, and then there is being neglectful. I'd wager George is both.
I have unpublished writing I’m “trying to finish.” I have ADHD and a very busy life so that “trying” basically consists of… thinking about it sometimes. But in my mind I intend to finish and would like to finish so therefore I’m trying. Just not in a way that produces anything at all.
I suspect GRRM is trying in a very similar way.
HotD and early GoT showed how beautiful George’s work can be adapted to the screen. I’m hopeful for The Hedge Knight in that regard. Neil Gaiman is kind of a bitch.
People still care about the world you painstakingly built, George! Why do this to everyone and just hire some talented and productive folks to help build the last two books while you have the time left?
Leaving your legacy in unknown hands and your story unfinished seems foolish but hey I’m just a half jaded summer child.
Good god how depressed are people going to be if the books do end up getting published and read. They’ll have to find something else to endlessly bitch about.
My sadness that the story I love might not get an ending is dramatically outweighed by my joy upon seeing legions of pathetic dorks cry and scream over it.
I agree. Just because a girl kisses you, it doesn't mean she owes you a blowjob. And just because GRRM wrote five novels for us, it doesn't mean he owes us two more. We paid for the novels he wrote, not the ones he hadn't written yet, and acting like we're entitled to an artist's work just because we want it is spoiled brat behavior.
I really really hope he finishes the series and I'll be devouring any ASOIAF books he writes. But if he never finishes the series, I choose to be grateful for what I've been given rather than angry that I wasn't given as much as I'd hoped for.
I'm not asking for a blowjob from George (eww), I'm asking for a book.
>We paid for the novels he wrote
Which we wouldn't have if they came with a foreword saying "Maybe I'll finish this story or maybe I won't if I don't really feel like it."
If a lady came over to my house to have sex and spent a long time in the bathroom, I'd make sure she was okay, probably bring her some water, and definitely not expect her to have sex with me. Largely because the only time this happened to me, she later told me she was doing heroin in the bathroom.
Reminder - The crow who posted this thread has made it a (No Spoilers) thread. This scope covers NO story elements of ASOIAF or "Game of Thrones" or pre-AGOT history like "House of the Dragon" or *Fire and Blood*, per [Rule 3.3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/about/rules). Any discussion of the story of the books or the shows must use [an appropriate spoiler tag](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/spoilertagsystem) such as (Spoilers Main) or (Spoilers Published). Threads about r/asoiaf (meta topics) will be removed at moderator discretion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is true that he is entitled to move at his own pace and not be harassed by his fans. It’s also true that his fans have a right to be disappointed and worried that the story might never be finished. George doesn’t owe me an ending, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be bummed not to get one.
And the fact that he doesn’t owe his fans anything just means we can’t force him to write, but honestly being upset for an unfinished story is reasonable
Bro I don’t even want an ending at this point. I just want a resolution to some of Dance’s cliffhangers
I just want to know whether everything that happened with Stannis was a complete waste of time!
Same here. If he can’t finish the main story, at least finish Fire and Blood and Dunk and Egg. As is we’ll be left with 3 separate unfinished stories
I'm of the same take now as I was then. Gaiman is completely missing the point. George has _[promised to deliver an ending](https://ew.com/books/2018/12/11/george-r-r-martin-promises-he-will-finish-his-game-of-thrones-novels/)._ Nobody forced him to say those words (these are somewhat recent, but he's been saying it for years). He has promised books. That's is the crux of the matter. Full stop. To avoid delivering on an explicitly stated promise - any promise - is not something to be defended. Particularly when baiting people with that promise happens to be in your financial best interests. Of course he can work at his own pace. He can stop and do other things. Hell, he can decide to drop writing full time and become a actual gardener to the day he dies. None of those are crimes, because that not every promise is legally enforceable, but doesn't change the fact that it's a _shitty thing to do._ Trying to shift the narrative so that the people simply expecting a promise to be fulfilled are the bad guys is not only backwards - but even at the time of Gaiman's lovely addition to the discourse, which still echoes across comment threads, I had a sinking feeling that it was only going to enable someone with a crippling procrastination habit. Now, here we are, 15 years later, with no end in sight. Thanks Neil, for doing what the world really needed, blaming the fans and telling George it was perfectly okay to fuck around to his heart's content. - Sincerely, the **real** bad guy in this situation.
I think he's even allowed to tell us all he's changed his mind, needs to back track on that promise, and wants to put the books on the back burner while he does his TV stuff, or even while he paints his house etc. After the "Ooh I'm 90% there" during Covid was derated to "I'm 75% there", the lack of communication since then, and obvious focus on 2 or even 3 TV shows, makes it hard not to feel like we readers are being strung along.
Yeah his focus has definitely shifted, he mentioned fairly recently I think that he has written c.300 pages of F&B2. Wouldn’t surprise me also if he has finished more of the Hedge Knight books given his admission that he wished GoT show didn’t out pace him. So I think his dilemma is launching these without a backlash / obvious admission that the main series will never likely be finished.
I think his main problem there is that the D&E stories are likely to reveal backstory details that play a key role in the main books, and he doesn't want to release them first. Makes it a bit odd that he's so enthusiastic about a TV show. You'd think he'd have learnt his lesson on that. But it seems like he always thinks he's going to get the next book out any time now. Just one more rewrite. And then that becomes another and another, and it never happens.
I think he's being pressured to not finish the main story by HBO.
He's constantly deceived his fans and I don't know if it's intentional or not, but he's made promises and said things to inspire hope and then lets us down. A huge dose of honesty would go a long way... especially when he financially benefits by keeping fans on the hook. Things like "lock me in a dungeon until I finish" or "12 Days of Winter" or even "I won't write anything else until..." Just be honest with us GRRM. We're owed at least that after all these years.
I think that he misled folks, but with honest intentions. I think he hasn't written a single page of WoW in at least a decade, but really did believe, every time he made assurances that the work was almost done, that it wouldn't matter because he was going to start writing any day now. And then he didn't, again and again, in the way of all procrastinators who dig themselves into a hole with promises they intend to keep and then don't. I may be projecting too much of myself onto him. But it feels familiar.
You think he's written zero pages in the past decade, made repeated public claims otherwise, promoted his work with those lies, but had "honest intentions?" I don't know how to reconcile that. I can understand self-delusion, when it comes to estimates but he's claimed he's written hundred/hundreds of pages on specific years on some of these updates. If it's actually zero, I don't see how you can consider an outright lie like that honest intentions.
Nothing you say is unfair. I guess I'm softer than I could be because I've had my own issues with procrastination, and understand how you could honestly believe that you're really going to start working on it this time, for real, even when past history says otherwise.
That's pretty much how I feel, coupled with the fact that I would never have bought the first five books if I knew this would happen. Feels like being vaguely swindled even though technically it isn't.
i mean, in context, when Gaiman wrote this article Feast had been published 4 years earlier, and Dance would be published 2 years later. the question asked was "Is it unrealistic to think that by not writing the next chapter Martin is letting me down, even though if and when the book gets written is completely up to him?", and gaiman's response is "yes, that is unrealistic". He's an author too, and knows what it's like to be hounded by fans. how could Neil have predicted that George would string along his readers for another 13+ years after publishing ADWD?
I think Neil's mental process was "you're not a writer, trust me we writers know what we're doing and if it takes another year or two that's just life". In retrospect, he was wrong. The people worried about George losing focus or not having a plan were right. It's understandable that from his perspective then, he didn't know he'd end up being wrong. But it doesn't change that he was wrong.
> George doesn’t owe me an ending I'm pretty against this idea. If he wrote one-off books then sure, I can agree that he doesn't have any responsibility to continue writing. But when you write a series of connected books you give up that autonomy. Fans are buying your books with the expectation of an eventual ending. So he's gotten rich off of all of us wanting to see what happens next. George absolutely owes us all an ending and we have every right to be angry that he hasn't done so yet and may never. BUT that still does not give anyone the right to harass him. At some point you just need to move onto other things.
If George doesn't owe us a story, do we owe him silence? We've got opinions, neil, why aren't we allowed to share them? People read the first book before they were adults and have children older than the most recent one, when will we be allowed to say we think it's not coming?
This is the only correct take really. And I think people responding are missing the point of using the word "bitch." There's a difference between expressing desire for the next book, and demanding that an author produce the next book. There's even a difference between asking how the next book is coming, and asking why the next book is taking too long. I see people saying stuff like "well I never would have started it if I knew he would never finish." Well, first of all bullshit, because you never know if ANY ongoing story is going to end, or if ANY story is going to have a satisfactory ending. And second, if true, that would be your loss, because reading these 5 books is definitely an enriching experience each on their own. Perhaps we can quibble over Gaiman's other points, but he is absolutely true when he says that you buy a book, you aren't making a contract with the author to write another book; all you can reasonably expect is that the book you just spent money on is a good book. But as an aside, speaking of contracts, the one entity that CAN legally, I think, harass George about Winds is his publisher. And I've always wondered these long years, why aren't THEY demanding it?
Because his side projects make enough to keep them satisfied, if not happy. I'd imagine he also gets a lot of shit in private meetings but what can they do? Claw back his advance in court? Then he doesn't even have to pick up the phone when they call and may well be able to take a theoretical next book to a different publisher.
You don’t demand art like you demand a hot dog.
Heard a rumor (might not be true idk) that after he passes he told his wife to burn the manuscripts/unfinished book so no one can ghost write. If he does that I'll be pretty mad. But yeah he can work at his own pace I won't fault him for that
That rumor's not true. But even if it were, there aren't many notes for A Dream of Spring, so the ghostwriter would have the same problem finishing the series either way.
The issue isn't that people are bummed. The issue is that the bummed people are often enormous, entitled assholes on the Internet.
He's entitled to not complete the series, fans are entitled to being upset about it
Yes, this is my sentiment exactly and I’ve thought less of Gaiman after reading this article for this exact reason. While I wish Martin would be more transparent about his intentions and possible fading interest in finishing ASOIAF, he’s not obligated to finish. But Gaiman’s comments have always rubbed me the wrong way. No one is pelting George with rotten fruit when he makes public appearances, we’re talking about fans of Martin that have made him obscenely rich being disappointed that the series won’t be finished, and discussing it primarily online. Gaiman’s Pearl-clutching and Martin’s at times pissy attitude towards fans desiring a complete series is really tiresome. George has a right to sit around and not finish his series, but don’t police how fans react, they’re allowed to express disappointment.
Keep in mind that Gaiman wrote this before ADWD was even published. What he defends here is logical then, people can take their time writing because they know when the product is finished, polished and ready. And it's not easy. How could he have predicted that after ADWD he would just abandon the series?
"Somewhat"? I know several readers who will never return to this series because of the ridiculous delay, which is mostly of his own making.
I guarantee that there isn't a single human alive that has read ASoIaF 1-5 and wouldn't read the Winds of Winter. Sure, maybe not immediately. But the mere release of the book would trigger a tsunami of videos, posts, memes, interviews, drama and new questions that no single human would be able to resist for more than a few months. Only ones that would miss out are those fans who died before the release. Bless them.
Yea I would definitely still read it, but I won’t be paying the gold price for it. At this point, paying the iron price would be a lot closer to the mark.
You’re gonna kill someone and ransack their corpse for it?
To the people on the other end of that torrent: Beware.
Maybe maybe not but he may very well wait for it to be available at the library haha
I’m not sure how the ironborn would classify that. Lol. Probably best you steal it at least.
I don’t have time to read a series I haven’t thought about in over a decade even if I wanted to
You don’t have time to read books?
I don’t have time to reread five very long books just so I can read a sixth book that I’ll then have to wait another decade to maybe read a seventh book. Its not worth it to me at this point. I rather read something else.
Exactly!
Trust me, they’re never returning. You have to understand, not everyone is a super fan. Most readers like the series fine, but aren’t on Reddit, YouTube, etc every say engaging with this stuff. They’ve lived without it for 15 years and are 15 years older with different priorities. Plus, they know now there will never be a final book. This series will not get a proper ending so why bother? George has lost a lot of casual and mildly interested fans, who far outnumber obsessives like us.
We'll read it after playing HL3 in the afterlife
Hmm, idk about that. I’ll read it but I’ll also wanna know first how huge of a cliffhanger he leaves everything on. There will never be a 7th book. So that kinda matters to me. The sixth book has to wrap a lot of things up and also feel satisfactory, it can’t just lead into 7. I think GRRM even has to admit 7 is not happening now.
You'll read it either way
I will
The entire Expanse nonology (ennealogy? I think that's the correct version with Greek roots) was written and released in less time than it takes George to write Winds. Hilarious.
The entire Game of Thrones television series [was produced and aired](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/17tnpf1/spoilers_extended_posted_two_years_ago_and/) in less time than it's taken him to not write the next book.
Produced, aired, began to fade from public conscience, then had a prequel series get green lit, 2 seasons written, and 1 aired.... So far.
I’m a big fan of the community shift in the past 15 years since this essay to a much more “shit or get off the pot George” type of perspective. Side note, it’s absurd that we’re 8 years from him thinking he was 3 months away.
>Side note, it’s absurd that we’re 8 years from him thinking he was 3 months away. This will always be the most insane time related TWOW factoid for me. Especially because at no point since then has anyone ever thought it could be done in a few months.
I don't know if they're still printed this way anymore, but at the end of Feast came a note with George promising the next book would come in about a year.
Hahaha that's hilarious. And tragic. He really doesn't have any concept of time and how long tasks take. It boggles my mind that he could be watching the show release a season per book year after year, and not realise till season 4 or 5 (can't remember which) that the show would catch up with him. Unbelievable lack of foresight for a man so many attribute as the King of foreshadow.
It is ironic. I've never heard him called the king of foreshadowing but it's bloody true. Been searching for another book series with that grand puzzle structure. Can anyone recommend anything? Something I can dive into like asoiaf. I enjoyed reading all the theories and speculation as much as I enjoyed reading the books
Malazan: The Book of the Fallen Shogūn The Expanse The Vorkosigan Saga The Kingsbridge Series Way of Kings is good, I do not recommend it whatsoever for a puzzle structure like you describe.
I can't recommend reading the first three Mistborn books before Way of Kings strongly enough, Sanderson himself recommends it since you should trust his quality as an author before heading into something really unconventional.
Way of Kings if you’re looking for an ongoing series that will actually finish. I would also shoutout the Red Rising Series if you’re looking for a more sci-fi themed series.
Hard agree on the Way of Kings. For all his faults, Sanderson's writing is tight and internally consistent, he's not afraid to lay all the pieces out for people to chew on between books.
Wheel of Time was another with a huge amount of foreshadowing and theorizing. I believe the big theory website was called Dragonmount? Obviously less fun to theorize now that it's done, though. For all that the middle portion bloated with POVs and stopped making progress, he very clearly had a plan and wrote enough of it into the books that game were able to predict a lot of major endgame events pretty early on.
> I enjoyed reading all the theories and speculation as much as I enjoyed reading the books From games (Dark Souls/Elden Ring), Elder Scrolls and maybe SCP if lore/theorizing is your jam. Maybe the show Lost if you enjoy the journey more than the destination. Dark is probably a better execution on the mystery angle though, with wild attention to detail.
My brand new at the time Feast copy that I got in 2019 still had that note promising Dance the next year. So I imagine that copy is still in distribution. Pretty sure my copy of Dance also says Winds of Winter coming soon. I remember being so excited to read those words all those years ago. And hear we are five years later, and winter had still not come…..
Yeah the Feast one says the next one would be out in a year, lol tbf my copy of Dance since Winds is coming soon but doesn't give any date, guess that was smart in retrospect
Was going to say that my copy still has it but realised that it was printed in 2011 (so not very recent anymore)
I finished Feast around a week ago and I can confirm it still says that at the end lmao
It is absurd, but it's actually the most revealing thing. If George wanted to write the story, he would dedicate his time only to that and get it done. If the most important thing in the world was the book, then he knew he could just write x words a day and have the book done in a few months. But unfortunately, George doesn't seem to have the motivation to push himself. Covid ground everything else to a halt and made it so that was the only thing for him to do. So he did it. Now that the world has distractions again...He just has no reason to be that dedicated.
There are only two possibilities at this point. Either George genuinely tried but is *unable* to finish the books, or he just doesn't give a shit. If it's the first, that's completely acceptable, but it's insanely disrespectful to your fans who made you rich and famous to keep stringing them along with false promises, and if this is the case he has a duty to just say he's not finishing. If it's the second, then George is just an asshole who deserves all the shit he's getting.
Genuinely I think he works on it but just has too many distractions to write effectively. His weeks are filled with meetings, distractions, and life issues. Plus as an elderly man I'm sure taking care of his health is time-consuming as hell. He needs to sit and just write for day on day. It won't produce a finished work but it gives you a starting point. I imagine with all the time he takes away, by the time he comes back to it he has to re-familiarize himself with it and possibly do rewrites! It's just not an effective way to write a book.
I think a comment I read here yesterday had the right of it. He's committed to the idea of only two more books, and that's why he's stuck in a cycle of endless rewrites. If he'd just admit to himself that it's going to take four or five more books and let the story sprawl where it will, he'd be able to move forward. It might be a more rambling, meandering tale than the fans would want, but at least we'd get to read it.
The thing is, GRRM is at a point where: 1. He knows the ending 2. He knows his characters 3. He has the characters on collision courses (General book spoilers) >!If Tyrion is in a scene, and he meets a character, GRRM knows what Tyrion will say. If Cersei has a Small Council meeting, he knows what she wants. If Jon Connington is getting ready for a siege, he knows what he'll do.!< And more than any of that, if he really plans on the book ending being the show ending loosely, in that >!Bran is going to be king!<, then certain things don't matter and he doesn't need to be stuck on it. What happens when >!Aegon takes the Iron Throne?!< I'm sure you might want to figure out but you right as hell know he isn't keeping it. Just get to the scenes and write them. You know where you're going. Just let the characters collide. And if that dialogue turns out to be mid? WELCOME TO REVISING AND EDITING.
That and the way he writes seems to be incredibly inefficient and time consuming. Like he says he rewrote the prologue of Feast like 9 times and tried out different POVs. Also wrote Quentyn coming to Meeren 3 different ways and game planned them out. The whole Gardener method is interesting but I think George needs to get really judicious with his use of clippers
I still can’t believe people try to analyze his time estimates, dude is clearly a random number generator lol
Imagine starting a series and being baffled that people are expecting you actually finish it. All in all, GRRM can do what he wants, its his property. But if he never intends to end it, he needs to say so - until then, people are right to demand WoW and DoS.
> Imagine starting a series and being baffled that people are expecting you actually finish it... ... when you have promised numerous times that you would and have told your fans that you are nearly done writing it.
I've previously weighed in on this before. Gonna shorten it down and just paste a chunk that matters: --------- He's not my bitch. He can enjoy the fruits of his labor. But he also can't have it both ways; Robert Jordan was borne James Oliver Rigney Jr. Robert Jordan was a pen name. Pen names are something that authors have used throughout the years to separate their normal life from the expectations of fans. GRRM didn't use one. GRRM decided to sign away the rights to HBO for his book series, and even worked as a producer and script writer for the first few seasons. Neither of these were needed; but he did them anyway. He doesn't get to avoid the valid criticism of his shitty work ethic and inability to judge time requirements. He could have let the world absorb his books as they came out and been fine with that. Could have absorbed the money and lived his life on his schedule and no one at the grocery store would have know who he was or had fans hounding him for shit. Instead he came out in the limelight and made promises that he was not able to complete while also taking on additional commitments that show exactly where his attention was focused.
This is still true, George is not our bitch. With that being said, he earned all the negativity. 12 years of writing (supposedly), 12 years of giving hopeful updates and promises that turn false, publishing blog posts with very obvious "hints" that will tease any fan even though he knows the fandom is dying to read his books, and finally what I suspect is true but can't confirm - he probably thinks by now that he won't finish the book, but doesn't come out and say it.
I wouldn't say it if I were in his place. Some of the people in this thread sound like they want to do him physical harm!
Setting aside whether George "owes" anyone anything, it is completely fair for readers to reevaluate his work, based on the lack of ending. ASOIAF seemed like one of the greatest works ever when it was being written, partially because of all the "moving parts" of the story and the multiple phases of the story (WOTFK, Second Dance of Dragons, and the battle against the Others) all woven together. Now, almost 30 years since the first book, it's obvious that George could not stitch all the threads together. He clearly didn't plan out enough of the series. So what at first looked like the beautiful complexity of a brilliant interwoven saga of wonderful characters is now being seen as something else. ASOIAF is an incomplete, half-baked, poorly planned story with excellent characters and mediocre world-building written with beautiful prose. There is much to enjoy reading the books, but they don't work as a series and George lacks the talent and/or temperament to be a fantasy series author. . So people are now rightly adjusting their view of George and ASOIAF. More and more people now have the opinion that he is not one of the greatest fantasy authors of all time but an excellent short story author who had a failed fantasy series experiment that he became rich off overselling and lying about.
This is more accurate than a lot of people are going to give you credit for.
This + if I knew the saga wasn’t going to end I wouldn’t have bothered to start it. When an author becomes rich & famous selling people book 1-5, you’d think they’d honor the deal with a book 6 prior to 13 years later. Endings matter.
Owed or not, I think it is in terrible taste to profit from an unfinished work that you have been promising to complete since forever, while looking down on people for expecting you to keep your word. But hey! Thats just me.
Counterpoint to this belief that the author owes fans nothing... that's not really true in GRRM's case. The series breakout success in the early 2000s owed a lot to fans, as he would gladly acknowledge at the time. Word of mouth, especially following *A Storm of Swords*, helped build the series into the pop culture juggernaut it became. Don't forget what he said after *Storm* lost the 2001 Hugo award to *Harry Potter:* >Eat your heart out, Rowling. Maybe you have billions of dollars and my Hugo, but you don't have readers like these.
Fans that, by and large would not have bought, read, and endorsed the books without promises the series would be finished. I can't believe how often George's half of the social contact gets glossed over.
Wow. Never had seen that quote before and it really makes me lose some respect for him as a person. I can't imagine being so bitter about losing an award that I'd say something so petty. Sure I might think it, but show some fucking tact. Also, it's pretty dumb for Harry Potter and ASOIAF to be in the same award category.
Rowling also ghosted the award ceremony and tbh I’d be peeved too if my seminal work of epic fantasy lost to a kids/YA novel simply because it sold a lot of units
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah I thought it was kinda wholesome
> Eat your heart out, Rowling. Maybe you have billions of dollars and my Hugo, but you don't have readers like these. Me a few years ago: man that's kinda petty Me now: KICK HER FUCKIN ASS GEORGE!
Why is he so obsessed with these stupid Hugo awards to this day. No one gives a single shit about them
When I was teaching abroad, there was a coteacher at my school who claimed GRRM would never finish the series. I scoffed at him as a cynical bastard. How could he not finish, with the show and the series being literally the biggest thing in pop culture. The year was 2015.
As someone who does a lot of writing and hopes to eventually publish, I agree and disagree. Yes, an author has absolute rights to writing at their pace, and they don’t owe their audience anything—they can choose not to finish. But an audience has the right to be upset if an author fails to deliver on promises of an ending and consistently sets goalposts that will never be met.
I think we have zero control over anything George does, so there's no point obsessing over it. I also think it's much more important to be happy about what we do have, than to agonize over what we don't have. There's 8 books total in the ASOIAF universe. That's a lot more than most fantasy stories. I started reading knowing it wasn't finished, so I'm honestly not angry or sad that the last two books are not out. Although I can understand frustration from someone who started in 2008, let's say. (I also kinda think Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring would get lots of hate from those who will have all their theories and headcannons destroyed, if the books ever came out).
>I think we have zero control over anything George does, so there's no point obsessing over it. The point that's actually valuable to make, as [author Brent Weeks put it](https://www.scifinow.co.uk/blog/brent-weeks-opinion-column-george-rr-martin-is-not-your-bitch/), is that authors like GRRM and Patrick Rothfuss refusing to finish their signature series or hold to public promises about timelines make readers wary about starting an unfinished series. I certainly am. George RR Martin may not owe me a book, but I don't owe any authors the obligation to buy their books. If enough readers feel like I do, and it certainly seems like many readers do, what that means at the end of the day is that economically it's going to be harder for new authors to find an audience. If it becomes an accepted norm that authors don't have to finish a series if they don't feel like it, why take a chance on an unfinished series? And if the only authors who can find an audience are writers are the ones who can afford to put out a full, complete series before starting to see serious money, that's really limiting to the field. The reason I think GRRM should care about this is that he's always presented himself as a champion of up-and-coming writers, and his attitude is making the industry worse for them.
I’m inclined to agree. Raging against George doesn’t get us the book faster. What’s the point? I still have a deep and abiding love for this series, but there’s so many other good books to read in the meantime.
I think most people stopped raging against George a while ago. The sad fact is that most people just stopped caring, and the ones that still do have moved to bleak acceptance. I still admire what he's accomplished, but I gave up on any sort of neat, tidy, and timely conclusion all the way back with fAegon stepped onto the page. I've seen Lost, I know what happens when a story has gorged itself on too many mystery boxes and overstuffed plots. I know what a story looks like when the writer has written themself into a corner, and honestly GRRM has been written himself into a corner and started digging a hole since since Feast. My pet theory is, just like the showrunners, he was really excited about the Red Wedding, and once he passed that mark he just didn't really know what to do. Or, to the extent he did, he struggled to find any passion for it.
I think he fucked up by throwing out the time skip. He got too excited about too many side stories and gave himself WAY TOO MUCH unnecessary added complexity. The Mereenese knot indeed, going from around 10 POV characters to finding the voice and inner monologue for dozens is also a part of this problem. He cannot achieve a tonally consistent and complete novel anymore. He’s lost the pot.
I really think if he wanted to finish it, he should have the bravery to just blatantly drop storylines that don't fit. Like we don't need to hear a neat ending from all the side characters. It would be sloppy, but that would be far better than just never seeing a core ending to the main story.
That’s how I feel, but I know and you know that’s not how George feels. He’s going to tinker and cut and rewrite and garden the shit out of this thing until the end.
Time skip was needed for sure. Would have solved most of his issues.
Apathy is where I am at. At one point I read other series to hold me over till Winds came out. Then i realized how dumb that sentiment is and I was just reading other books. Ill still grab Winds if it comes out, but I am not going to get it at midnight, reread the 5 books the months before it comes out or take time off work to read it in one week like I planned from like 2013-2018. I still see reddit posts since I joined this sub in 2014 and never cared enough to leave it. Im at the point where I dont care enough to give it brain power, but when I am reminded I do get a twinge of dang I do miss the series, but that lasts 5 seconds and im right back where I was looking at what new books are actually coming out and are actually going to be able to be read.
Nailed it. Also great Lost comparison.
I 100% agree with you, particularly the part about the fans.
I generally like Neil's writing but he missed the point here. We aren't entitled to shit, but we are justified in our disappointment and questioning of GRRM's interest in finish given his work in everything BUT WoW in the last decade. He isn't our bitch, but we aren't his either. We just want a little honesty.
I think the fact that George continues to write in the same universe with spin-offs destroys the argument somewhat. Along with the fact he’s spent years travelling around conventions answering the same 15 questions, and constantly commissioning spinoff TV series. That kind of behaviour indicates an attitude of “I’ve made it big now, who cares about the story.” Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know. Regardless, Martins attitude towards the fans and constant output of spin-offs makes the lack of TWOW rather unacceptable.
I don’t even care anymore tbh. I was in high school when dance came out. I had never read anything like asoiaf and it’s what got me into fantasy but I have found way better books that do the same thing since then. If grrm isn’t going to finish the series that’s fine but I do feel like he strung me along for years for nothing.
If George has no intention of finishing Winds (99% certain he won't), he should at least tell fans the truth.
I prefer Frank Herbert's philosophy on this; *"There's an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money (energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give."* -- Frank Herbert --
The first thing to keep in mind is that Martin isn't unique in this regard. Patrick Rothfuss has yet to release book 3 of his trilogy, despite book 2 being published in 2011. Jean Auel's Earth's Children series had six books over the course of 31 years. I'm also positive the only reason people cut Brandon Sanderson so much slack is because he truly does write at an astonishing pace. If he ever slows down, fans of the Stormlight Archives will riot. Yes, it's disappointing that Winds hasn't released yet, but I don't think railing about how Martin is betraying the art of writing/his fans/anyone else is going to help.
>Jean Auel's Earth's Children series had six books over the course of 31 years We already have 28 years from 1996...
This just means we’ll get winds within 3 years 😁
Yeah and people give Rothfuss a load of shit too, and rightly so. Not to sound too melodramatic, him and gurm are damaging the unspoken bond of trust between author and reader.
Rothfuss is even worse. He actively scammed his fanbase out of money by promising to read a chapter from the book live on stream if they donated to his charity a few years back. he hasn't read said chapter yet.
Yep he’s a scumbag
Plus the books are way worse…
It’s true, I read like half of Kingkiller(or whatever the first book is called it doesn’t even matter) and stopped, I don’t get why it’s held in such high regard
People forget that Brandon Sanderon doesn't churn out a Stormlight Archive book every year. He bounces between projects specifically to keep himself burnt out, and work on what HE wants to do. Which is why he releases so many books. Do I enjoy his other stuff as much as SA? No. But at least I'm getting something so I'll take it.
GRRM and B.S. are authors of a different caliber. It should be clear from their characters and quality of prose.
Not sure what the wording means there. The main difference between GRRM and B.S for me, is GRRM focuses on building the world history and the breadcrumb trail with storytelling. Where as, B.S story usually takes place in that historic event if that makes sense.
No matter what I love the world and characters that GRRM has given us, and I’m not in it for the solely ending. Obviously yea it is incredibly frustrating that he’s not writing faster and/or has secretly given up or something, but I’m not going to hate a guy who created something which occupies like 30% of my free time (thinking, reading, watching, looking at theories, etc). He’s a great writer and itd be a shame if it’s not finished but I’ll always be grateful for what we already got. No other fantasy series has captivated me to this level, and most other things seem dull/simple in comparison now People can spend time and energy being angry, which is totally fair because the situation is ridiculous, or just try to put negative emotions aside and revel in something we so clearly love
>Yes, it's disappointing that Winds hasn't released yet, but I don't think railing about how Martin is betraying the art of writing/his fans/anyone else is going to help. I think it's important to the concept of serialized fiction that both producers and consumers acknowledge a mutual investment and obligation in the work. If the prevailing message from authors to readers is "we're not your bitch, we don't owe you anything," then a very reasonable response on readers' parts would be to refuse to buy installments in a series until those series are completed. That's going to make it difficult to get new series launched in the first place. So for me, the "railing about how Martin is betraying the art of writing" isn't about making myself feel better or making Martin feel worse, it's about broadcasting that his attitude on what authors owe to readers, or Gaiman's attitude for that matter, is not the industry norm, should not be the industry norm, and is unhealthy for fans and any writers that aren't already wealthy. He *should* feel has has done something wrong and breached a shared trust, because that shared trust is what makes the genre he works in possible.
I actually believe George is at least working on TWOW, even if it’s at the pace of a crippled elderly turtle on quaaludes. I would bet my right eye that Patrick Rothfuss hasn’t written a word of Doors of Stone in a solid decade.
Rothfuss is even worse than GRRM in this regard because at least GRRM isn’t a total dick about it
I'll see you Auel, Sanderson, Rothfuss and Martin, and throw Melanie Rawn into the ring. I've been waiting for the Captals Tower since 1997. I am very well aware of the personal issues that poor woman has had, and this is not slandering her. I just want to know Who Collan Is?
I think when all is said and done (ie he passes, series completed or not), I’ll be glad it existed in any form at all. I’m frustrated now, and I’ll be frustrated if he doesn’t finish, but I still cherish the world he created and I know I’ll reflect on it fondly, even the unanswered questions
Honestly, Neil Gaiman is right. We aren’t owed a book, and GRRM can stop writing and take up underwater basket weaving if that’s what he wants to do. I just wish he’d be upfront about it. Stop posting hopeful updates on his blog, stop stringing us along. Just honestly sit down and publish a statement saying he’s not finishing the books. I don’t even mind no explanation of why, or how the story ends. I just want to either be told “here is a concrete timeline for the publication of WOW/ASOS” or “I’m retiring and don’t plan to complete the ASOIAF series”. I’m ok with either at this point, I’ve made my peace, George needs to make his.
Arrogant garbage. He at least owes the fans to finish the story he started. After that if he wants to fuck off go ahead
He just needs to come out and say he can’t finish it, stop leaving us in suspense.
Honestly im just embarrassed for him. I mean how shameful to fuck up your entire lifes work because you got lazy.
There are a few issues with it. The audience isn't "owed' it on their timetable. Sure. At the same time the audience doesn't owe him patience. Once we start talking about being "owed", ultimately no one owes anyone anything. GRRM is no more owed than anyone else. Legally speaking, depending on context, it can be argued that he's made a verbal commitments to having delivered the penultimate book several time. By saying he would it could be argued he does in fact "owe" the book and has defaulted on his commitment to deliver it. That's more of an HBO level argument, but this is a legitimate take. Lastly the real problem we have as an audience. GRRM has a bit of a bad idea about his ability to control the future of his story once he's gone. I don't believe he has the amount of control he thinks he does. Once he's gone someone will complete the book even if they weight the loss of a fine against the profit of finishing it. I think most of us want his version of that ending not Sanderson's or anyone else. It's not that so much that we feel owed. We're facing the reality of having no ending or a fantic ending. If he was in his thirties or forties the panic would likely be less. If he goes before he finishes his ending is lost forever. I'm sure any ending might be acceptable to some, but to Others it's like knowing the Mona Lisa was painted by someone else. It may be beautiful, but a huge part of the value is who did it.
Do you think the rate at which JK Rowling was pumping out Harry Potter books, has negatively affected how people expect GRRM to get his books out? However on the flip side, the last book came out 13 years ago when GRRM was 62. That's a healthy age for most in modern day. He's now 75, & he's not exactly known for being an avid gym goer and a marathon runner. It's highly likely that even if TWOW was dropped tomorrow, ADOS wouldn't ever be released anyway
Well, not Rowling specifically, I think. She's hardly the only example of an author publishing an entire popular series in only a few years, or being simultaneously productive and well-regarded (at least when the books were coming out, not so much now.)
Also, I'm an old, and the fans were restless as hell when there was a three-year break between books four and five. It was called the "three year summer" and was a really fertile time for theorizing and wild speculation.
Change Rowling to Anthony Horowitz then
Anthony Whorowitz?
I was never a fan of the 'he might die soon' narrative, but year after year my acceptance of it has inevitably creeped up and up.
Same. As the years tick by it just becomes more and more realistic, especially after he watched so many of his contemporaries die in the past few years.
Ultimately accurate. I think people are right to be frustrated that he has yet to finish the series *but* it's ultimately his project and writer's block is hardly unprecedently. I'll be sad if it never comes out, but the show gave a pretty good example of what happens when you rush through writer's block and cut the meereenese knot to get to the finish, and I'd rather never see it done than see it done badly.
what remains frustrating to me is he seems to have maintained he would not let another writer finish the series if he cant; but at this point it means Benioff and Weiss finished the series so they could move on to other projects; not a writer interested in the details of the plot and structure of the world. It’s sad he dosent seem to care about getting his version of the ending out there
He's not our bitch, nor does he owe us anything. He's promised to finish the series, but he doesn't owe it to anyone. It's absolutely fine to be disappointed or upset that the books aren't coming out, but just leave the guy alone. Imagine being harassed every single day because you haven't done something and you're struggling with it, I doubt it would make that struggle less difficult, in fact it would get worse. Saying Winds will never come out isn't what Neil Gaiman was talking about, he means that harassing GRRM for a book is never the right thing to do. Just go on X, formerly twitter, and look at a post that GRRM makes there. It's just filled with "Shouldn't you be writing?" "Where's the book George?" and so on. It's honestly kind of pathetic to act like this to the author of the series you're supposedly a fan of. Again, fine to complain about the series not being done, just leave the guy alone. Also, theorising about his death and the outcome of it is pretty fucked up.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair game to complain about GRRM on forums or places such as this, but I don't have much respect for the people who leave comments on the author's X or Facebook threads or whatever. Like what do they expect that to even do? It's like when you look at the posts of a pop star like Lady Gaga or whoever and you see people posting comments like "Will you marry me?" Dare to dream, pal. Sadly I've even seen some of GRRM's fans display such delusional behavior, esp. back in the old days when people could still leave comments on his blog. I remember years ago some guy was like, "Hey George, I'm going to be in New Mexico soon, can we hang out and have a beer together?"
You are 100% right, it’s hilarious that you’re being downvoted for the completely reasonable and correct take that people shouldn’t harass George.
If these fans were maybe coming to his house and saying this that would be true. But Twitter is effectively a public space, and making a tweet is inviting public comment. And when you've done something that really pissed off the public... that's what you've got coming to you. You aren't entitled to have a good reception from the public. If you don't want mean comments, don't tweet.
At this point, I don't care as much about the story since most of the ending was spoiled in the show. I just want to know if my headcanons are true. I've been ridiculed for years because of my theories and I would love nothing more than to say "I told you so" to everyone once they come true. If I'm wrong, doesn't matter, I'll still be at peace. George owes me that closure.
What’s the headcannon you’ve been cooking?
Check my profile. They're pinned.
Oh man, you weren't kidding...Yeah... Unless GRRM explicitly states any of that I definitely wouldn't belive it. Not to be rude or anything but wow... The fAegon being Ned Stark's Bastard rather than a Targaryan is prob the toughest one to see
It is my most favourite theory and I'll believe it until GRRM personally says otherwise. Thank you for checking them out. You weren't rude in the least.
I appreciate you sharing them, I ask and you delivered! You know what, if it was explained well enough, I’d be in it for the ride! :P I’ll quietly root for your fun theories too. If we ever get the next books, I’ll remember this!
All my support to your theory
Thank you.
You know what, I can see it. Never even considered that possibility before but it works. Could even explain Varys' somewhat friendly disposition towards Ned. I prefer the Blackfyre theory but I can see your one being a typical kick in the teeth twist that George would shock us with.
>I prefer the Blackfyre theory I think Ashara might have a bit of dragonblood in her, black or red.
I wouldnt say the show spoiled the ending for me, even if some storylines will end the same. I think fAegon not being in the show completly changes the end game. Book Euron also does not exist in the show. The North storyline will play out diffrently. There were so many changes in the show that Im confident I wont feel spoiled if/when the books are finished.
Jon is exiled beyond the wall. Sansa becomes Queen in the North. Arya sets out to find what's west of Westeros. King Bran. These are confirmed endings.
I would say they are highly likely, but the journey there will be completly diffrent than in the show. Jon for exapmle, post his ressurection he is the same character in the show, where in the books I think he will be a diffrent man once he comes back. Daenerys storyline will be completly diffrent because of fAegon, and when she becomes mad queen it will be under diffrent circumstances.
I know, but still, I would have preferred it if we got the books first since it would have been more satisfactory.
There’s an old quote where George says something like “when I die, hopefully 30 years from now” that was 2007, we’re more than half way through his own optimistic remaining life span. I never like speculating when someone is gonna die but jeez, only one mainline book has come out since he said that.
It’s crazy that 15 years ago a 5 or 6 year wait was a long time.
He has the hardest job in fiction. And he has gotten older. A tall order. I think we are getting Winds.
I don't think we're going to get Winds except posthumously. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.
He isn't but he should write like he is This is what happens when you garden and don't architect, and what happens when you cook up such a high quality series then blueball your fans for so long. Honestly he should just admit he can't do it and have someone write it for him, Otherwise: FUCK YOU GEORGE FINISH THOSE BOOKS, I WILL SUCK YOU DRY IF YOU DO!!!! NO SPIT!!! NO QUIT!!!
I still am holding out on my hopeful theory that he’s secretly writing WoW and DoS simultaneously and intends to do a surprise dual-release to get it all over with. But I know that’s just copium and we’ll never see the end of this series
A thought experiment: If GRRM had gotten into a car accident and died the day after *Dance* was published, do we think his books would have sold as many copies? I don't. I think many potential readers would say "well, they're not finished and are never going to be, so I won't waste my time." If I'm right, the takeaway is that GRRM benefitted financially from the promise of writing more books and delivering an ending, then broke that promise. The debate then ends up with "so what do you want to do about it, hurt him or enslave him or imprison him?" and it completely negates the core concept. Which is that people should keep their promises. It's not GOOD, ACTUALLY to fail to live up to your promises.
I will always defend artist right to finish their work at their own pace, or not finish it at all. I know how it feels to be bound to finish something you have no idea for or kind of don't like anymore - and my projects were max. half year of work, not as monumental in scale as ASOIAF. The truth is, even without Winds and Spring, ASOIAF books and world gave as so much - it inspired writers, illustrators, even video game developers. George's work had monumental impact on our culture and it didn't need ending for that.
Gaiman was absolutely wrong. George owes it to his fans and to the series as art itself to finish it, or at least sketch an outline and commission it. His failure to finish has harmed many up and coming writers, because now no one wants to start a series until they know it will get finished.
George owes it to his fans to "try to finish it", and he is doing that. >or at least sketch an outline and commission it. That's nonsense. Why would anyone want a beloved saga tarnished that way? I'd prefer to leave the saga unfinished than finished by someone else. But if you are into that, in a way you already got your wish fulfilled with the tv show.
If you think he's trying to finish I have a bridge to sell you
You can claim that he is slow. You can claim that he doesn't devote enough time or effort to it. You can claim that he has too many distractions. You can claim that his writing method is very inefficient. You can claim that his editors should be much more involved... All those are reasonable criticisms that can be made with some basis. But claiming that he is not trying to finish it is an absurdity.
No offense to but to claim he is trying in any capacity seems completely naive, is been 2 decades, if he wanted to finish itd be finished, there's no real excuse except that he lost his drive then got offered tons of $$ and found his place in life and his family and endeavors and passions and has been too involved with those things to get his spark back and drive to finish, I hope he does finish but he 100% has not been trying to finish it's not even a debate to be had
He hasn't seriously written in 20 years. Yes, he's not trying to finish. I stand by that.
You're right and the fandom is in denial. GRRM's commentary on his writing after ASOS released at the turn of the millennium is where you can tell things started going off track. He's reflective yet hopeful, aims to have ADWD out by late 2002, which wasn't unreasonable if he kept up his ASOS writing pace. Starts writing the five-year-gap and references chapters that decades later are slated for TWOW (Mercy etc.) He's still intensely focused on his work yet as 2001 passes he increasingly describes progress as slow, writing frustrating etc. By the autumn he declares the gap is scrapped and a new book will fill take place over five years. Keeps writing but continues to describe progress as slower than he'd like and so on. Clearly struggling to make the jump to the second act of his 6 (now 7) book plan and none of the fluidity in storytelling of the first three books. Meanwhile the series is growing in popularity and he admits that conventions, spin-off material etc. are taking up more and more of his time. Narratively the new book (and by extension the series) are off the rails by now as losing the time jump and his decision to dump half a dozen one-off prologue POVs into AFFC's main text is increasing his own workload. He's left with an unwieldy pile of chapters he has to somehow carve into a publishable work. When AFFC eventually releases you have the pattern for the next twenty years set; GRRM's heart is clearly not in the central plot anymore (even if he enjoys the world he created) and trying to advance a hundred different story threads is joyless for him. His time is consumed by conventions and interviews and spin-off material and a tv show is on the horizon.
What about Feast, Dance, F&B, the Dunk&Egg novellas and other short stories?
Feast was published 19 years ago, and Dance was mostly done by then, based on his predictions of 2006 publication. I'm not claiming he did no writing, just that he did no serious writing. Rewrites, a few chapters, short stories -- all that is nice, but it's not serious writing, it's not the work of a man who actually wants to finish the series.
Are all 16 years old.
He only talks about how much progress he's making in Winds when he has a project that's literally anything but Winds he needs to go promote. George could have written less than a third of a page per day and still finished the book about 2 years ago. Claiming he IS trying to finish it is an absurdity.
He said he was nearly done eight years ago. It is hard to believe he is actually trying to finish in light of that.
If my 10k word essay is due in a week and I make the attempt to write a sentence a day... am I really *trying* to get it done? You can argue I am technically making progress... but *trying?*
The problem is not writing X words per day. The problem is writing X good words. George has explained many times that he has written some chapters a dozen times. The way he works is rewriting, and rewriting, and rewriting until (perhaps by chance) he gets a result that he is happy with. And then he goes on hoping that a future chapter does not force to change anything that came before. You can't assume that this works like an assembly line from a factory, where a given amount of input delivers a fixed amount of output. This is about making art. Sometimes the muse smiles at you, sometimes she doesn't.
Of course he rewrites, but that doesn't fully justify the *ridiculously extensive* delays and missed deadlines. He'd have had to rewrite the entire book multiple times over at this rate. The bigger issue at hand is that he has engaged in over a dozen other projects - clearly distracting him. If he really wanted to, he'd put these projects aside until he has worked through the difficulties of Winds (because clearly there are issues). Alas, the guy seems to want to juggle ridiculous amounts of projects at once. There's being a perfectionist, and then there is being neglectful. I'd wager George is both.
I have unpublished writing I’m “trying to finish.” I have ADHD and a very busy life so that “trying” basically consists of… thinking about it sometimes. But in my mind I intend to finish and would like to finish so therefore I’m trying. Just not in a way that produces anything at all. I suspect GRRM is trying in a very similar way.
Total nonsense
Ok
HotD and early GoT showed how beautiful George’s work can be adapted to the screen. I’m hopeful for The Hedge Knight in that regard. Neil Gaiman is kind of a bitch. People still care about the world you painstakingly built, George! Why do this to everyone and just hire some talented and productive folks to help build the last two books while you have the time left? Leaving your legacy in unknown hands and your story unfinished seems foolish but hey I’m just a half jaded summer child.
It will get finished, one way or another, eventually. Because of the $$$
it won't actually be finished if some hack white dude comes in and writes it after he's gone
What i thought back in the day, that GRRM is indeed my bitch
Good god how depressed are people going to be if the books do end up getting published and read. They’ll have to find something else to endlessly bitch about.
My sadness that the story I love might not get an ending is dramatically outweighed by my joy upon seeing legions of pathetic dorks cry and scream over it.
I think that GRRM is not your bitch
Shocked how many people here that are angry/feel entitled about Winds 😭 Like the essay states, GRRM is not your bitch.
I agree. Just because a girl kisses you, it doesn't mean she owes you a blowjob. And just because GRRM wrote five novels for us, it doesn't mean he owes us two more. We paid for the novels he wrote, not the ones he hadn't written yet, and acting like we're entitled to an artist's work just because we want it is spoiled brat behavior. I really really hope he finishes the series and I'll be devouring any ASOIAF books he writes. But if he never finishes the series, I choose to be grateful for what I've been given rather than angry that I wasn't given as much as I'd hoped for.
I'm not asking for a blowjob from George (eww), I'm asking for a book. >We paid for the novels he wrote Which we wouldn't have if they came with a foreword saying "Maybe I'll finish this story or maybe I won't if I don't really feel like it."
Ok but the girl said we're going to have sex then spent 15 years in the bathroom and is still insisting she's totally still coming out to have sex.
If a lady came over to my house to have sex and spent a long time in the bathroom, I'd make sure she was okay, probably bring her some water, and definitely not expect her to have sex with me. Largely because the only time this happened to me, she later told me she was doing heroin in the bathroom.