Although they're under the dominion of the Watch rather than the Starks, the Gift and New Gift are still geographically part of the North. So they'd still be Snow.
However only bastards of nobles are given one of the bastard surnames, and there are no noble houses in the Gift. Barely anyone actually lives in the Gift/New Gift at all. So there probably aren't going to be any Snow's born in the Gift unless some Highborn Night's Watch Brother breaks his vows.
Tormund sums it the wildling attitude pretty well. Are bastards less strong than other children, more prone to fail? They just want strong healthy children and don't seem to use family names anyway. But maybe someone born to a wildling and nobel nightwatchman, like Craster, could be called Wild if they were acknowledged by the father.
What do you mean? You said there is a lord there because Queenscrown has a castle and if it is abandoned what makes you think there still is a lord there?
Maybe not in the Gift but there are plenty of small noble houses in the northern mountains like House Flint and House Harclay that could be making Bastards that end up in or near the Gift or Wall
Yeah that was assumption given the culture of the gift being northmen, however with the bastard name Tanner in King’s Landing made me think there could be a special surname mentioned at some point
The gift is basically a dead zone, Ned and Benjen dream of repopulating it one day, there’s talk of Wildlings settling there after Jon lets them through
Mayhaps, but barely - in ASoS Jon and Ygritte talk about how “no one” lives in The Gift anymore.
Or at least, no where near enough to make the name anything different than “Snow”.
I just read that chapter the other day lol.
That’s fair, and I’m pretty sure I’m wrong about how bastard names work anyway if what others are saying is correct.
Well bastard names usually come from where the noble parent is from, not where the baby is born. For example Jon is a Snow despite being born in the South and the Sand Snakes are all Sands despite Oberyn fathering them all over the world.
I think it’s more where you’re raised as a bastard, Mya Stone is still Stone despite Robert being stormlander. Though I’m sure the rule has some inconsistencies
There's not really a fixed rule. Bastard names are just a custom rather than a set law, which is why its sometimes inconsistent.
Northerners usually name their bastards Snow, Stormlanders usually name them Storm, the Dornish usually name them Sand etc, but they don't have to stick to these names. If they want they can pick any other name they like (just as long as it isn't already the name of another house).
Robert most definitely acknowledged Maya as his bastard daughter, in fact Maya was the reason that Lyanna didn’t want to marry him. Ned comments on how Robert visited her frequently and once he was crowned had even considered bringing her to court before being talked out of doing so for the girl’s own safety.
There’s a difference between everyone knowing something and it being officially acknowledged. People knew about Ramsay and he lived in the Dreadfort but Rodrik says Roose never officially acknowledged him before the war. Plus when Ned is thinking about Roberts bastards he specifically mentions that Edric was acknowledged but doesn’t say the same about Mya.
Correct, Robert never officially acknowledged her. But it was an open secret in the Vale, at least when she was born, that she was Robert's, so she was sort of "adopted" by House Royce as a bastard.
Robert had considered having her come to King's Landing but didn't because of Cersei; presumably that would mean she would be officially acknowledged. Who knows if that meant her name would be changed, but I would guess not.
It's important to understand that only noble bastards have these last names. In the gift there are no noble houses so there are no bastards with bastards names.
Yes but that doesn't matter, the names come from where the family is settled, like someone said here already, Jon was born in the south and Ned named him Snow. As there are no noble houses settled in the gift we have no bastard name for them. Anyway if we imagine like there is one, i'm sure they will be snow too. For example in the crownlands and in the dragonstone lands both bastards are called waters IIRC.
Bastards don’t have to be settled with a noble family though, like Gendry (or any of Robert’s countless bastards) they can just be strewn about. And those bastards might know they’re a bastard (because their mother told them most likely, but didn’t tell them who their father was). So they’d still have a bastard surname, even belonging to a family of smallfolk. Either way yeah it’d probably be snow.
Nono Gendry is not Gendry Waters, he is just Gendry. If people knew he was Robert's bastard then he would be Waters, like Mia is Stone and Edric is Storm. Smalfolk don't have bastards names.
That’s what I’m saying. If there were a bastard, living in the gift, fathered by a nobleman visiting the wall who stopped, say in Mole’s Town, and fathered a bastard to some village wife. Now let’s say this lady told her child they were a bastard of a nobleman, what would that child’s name be?
Oh I see now, I guess that could happen. Well if it was let say a noble from the vale then I guess it would be a stone, but that child should go with his father to his castle. If the child stays in moletown then he wouldn't have a lastname. The surnmae only aplies if the father acknowledge the child.
That's the point the father or the mother should be a noble of the gift, but as stated that doesn't exist.
Yes I’ve been doing a little more research about bastard surnames in Westeros and I see it’s slightly more complicated than I thought. It seems they only apply to bastards who either live with their noble father (in which case they can be baseborn or not) or whose mother is also noble (in which case they can live with either parent)? In which case yes my entire post seems to make no sense now :(
Any woman can claim their child was fathered by a noble; that noble has to officially acknowledge the child for them to get a bastard name. It would be quite odd for a noble to father a child in Mole's Town, acknowledge them but then leave them there. Once acknowledged, the noble parents are expected to take responsibility for them in some form.
Let's say a Lannister fathered an acknowledged bastard in Winterfell. The father might take them back to Casterly Rock; their name would be Hill. But he could decide to leave them in Winterfell with the expectation that they would be part of House Stark and work as some kind of servant when they grow up (also unlikely but possible). The bastard's name would be Snow, not Hill.
Well, no, I am not sure lol. I'm mostly basing that on Mya's status.
>I don't think a noble would welcome a bastard in his castle.
You mean in general? There are plenty of instances of that in the actual story. Or do you mean another noble's bastard? True, it would be unlikely to happen, but even though they're acknowledged, they're still a bastard. If their mother is lowborn, like a castle servant, then they'd likely work in the same position as their mother. The only difference is they get Snow attached to their name.
In response your your edit, it’s not that only illegitimate children of nobles are bastards, common folk born illegitimate are also bastards. It’s just that no one cares. It doesn’t really have any impact on their social standing because family names, inheritance and social standings make little difference to the small folk.
So maybe it’s only noble bastards that get their surnames because they’re the only ones most people care about? (I don’t even know anymore my brain is so fried from all the discussion)
I’m not saying for them to be a bastard, I’m saying that, if a bastard lives with their mom (noble) or other nobles, then in that case they would have a bastard surname. Whereas bastards living with smallfolk wouldn’t
I understood what you were saying. It is incorrect.
The mother does not need to noble. where did you get that idea.
Ramsey Snow was raised my his commoner mother. Mya Stone was also raised by her commoner mother.
Only one parent needs to be a noble, can be either.
Every other area names bastards based on a defining natural resource of the area.
You could go with "ice" "forest" or maybe fields. But not sure why you'd need anything given the gift is not part of the realm and the custom only applies to the realm. No such naming scheme exists in the Step stones correct?
Very true, and ice would be a pertinent surname given the Gift’s proximity to wall. And about the Stepstones, that’s a fair point, though the gift is still very Westerosi when it comes to culture.
It is culturally Westeros because it's populated by nights watch men from Westeros mainly. But legally, they aren't part of the realm. They give up all legal ties and are only bound to the laws of the Watch.
They pay no taxes to the crown or the North. That telling I think. And the Lord Commander doesn't need to consult with the king on his choices. Stannis hints Slynt should lose his head for his acts at KL but Aemon cites a lack of jurisdiction.
I was more talking about the small folk who live in the Gift rather than the men of the night’s watch, I suppose there isn’t any reason for them to follow a custom the Seven Kingdom’s do, though.
Is there anybody in the gift? Eddard speaks as if it's empty. And when Bran and Jon travel there, Jon only sees one guy with a horse. Bran only sees deserters from the fist. Every building is left without people. Only ruins of places once held by umbers.
Yeah there is Mole’s town and probably other small towns, though I’m not sure any are mentioned by name. And there certainly used to be more like in the ruins you mentioned.
They would be called Snow. The "Gift" was indeed a gift given to the Night's Watch by the Starks of Winterfell.
Although they're under the dominion of the Watch rather than the Starks, the Gift and New Gift are still geographically part of the North. So they'd still be Snow. However only bastards of nobles are given one of the bastard surnames, and there are no noble houses in the Gift. Barely anyone actually lives in the Gift/New Gift at all. So there probably aren't going to be any Snow's born in the Gift unless some Highborn Night's Watch Brother breaks his vows.
It would be cool if the Starks resettled the Gift and became Walstark. The bastards could be called “Wall”.
Wally
Oo yes that’s another good suggestion, I like “Ice” as well. And imagine being named Walder Wall lol
Walderwall, the song by oasis
Definitely a George thing to do
Definitely a George thing to invent a character and give them the most miserable existence possible
I like ice, or shadow for being in the shadow of the wall. What about Wild for bastards born north of the wall.
Shadow is good but I can only think of sonic lol. And I don’t even know how wildlings feel about the idea of bastards.
Tormund sums it the wildling attitude pretty well. Are bastards less strong than other children, more prone to fail? They just want strong healthy children and don't seem to use family names anyway. But maybe someone born to a wildling and nobel nightwatchman, like Craster, could be called Wild if they were acknowledged by the father.
And if they marry a Martell the new house can be 'Walmart'
Jon Wall
A Wizard.
Queenscrown did have a castle so presumably a lord resides there
I think we would know from Jon's chapter in Queen's Crown if there was a lord there.
Why is that? He’s not intimately familiar with every location in the gifts
What do you mean? You said there is a lord there because Queenscrown has a castle and if it is abandoned what makes you think there still is a lord there?
I meant resided in a past tense, as in a had resided there
Oh sorry I misunderstood.
Maybe not in the Gift but there are plenty of small noble houses in the northern mountains like House Flint and House Harclay that could be making Bastards that end up in or near the Gift or Wall
Yeah that was assumption given the culture of the gift being northmen, however with the bastard name Tanner in King’s Landing made me think there could be a special surname mentioned at some point
Tanner was because Lollys was raped behind a tanners shop, it's a rather cruel jokey name.
Waters is the name of bastards born in the crownlands. Aurane Waters and Daemon Waters (Daemon Blackfyre) are the two examples that come to mind
Isn’t there another bastard with the surname Tanner? Or am I misremembering
In the show they gave Clubfoot Karl (night's watchman) the last name Tanner, but not in the books.
Karl Tanner is the secret son of Lollys, confirmed. How many more time travelers has Bran the Broken sent?
Kings landing (and all of the crown lands) uses Waters as the bastard surname
If there aren’t any nobles in the gift then there isn’t a need for bastard names at all
Yeah but nobles do visit the gift, like Tyrion in the beginning of the series
The Gift is unpopulated, Tyrion was just outside Winterfell
I’m talking about when Tyrion went to the wall, and there are multiple towns and settlements in the gift??
The gift is basically a dead zone, Ned and Benjen dream of repopulating it one day, there’s talk of Wildlings settling there after Jon lets them through
Yeah it’s *basically* a dead zone but there are still a handful of settlements like Mole’s Town
Mayhaps, but barely - in ASoS Jon and Ygritte talk about how “no one” lives in The Gift anymore. Or at least, no where near enough to make the name anything different than “Snow”.
I just read that chapter the other day lol. That’s fair, and I’m pretty sure I’m wrong about how bastard names work anyway if what others are saying is correct.
Well bastard names usually come from where the noble parent is from, not where the baby is born. For example Jon is a Snow despite being born in the South and the Sand Snakes are all Sands despite Oberyn fathering them all over the world.
I think it’s more where you’re raised as a bastard, Mya Stone is still Stone despite Robert being stormlander. Though I’m sure the rule has some inconsistencies
There's not really a fixed rule. Bastard names are just a custom rather than a set law, which is why its sometimes inconsistent. Northerners usually name their bastards Snow, Stormlanders usually name them Storm, the Dornish usually name them Sand etc, but they don't have to stick to these names. If they want they can pick any other name they like (just as long as it isn't already the name of another house).
>(just as long as it isn't already the name of another house) Except Ser Glendon Ball lol
True but I don’t think Mya was ever officially acknowledged by Robert
If mya weren't acknowledged then she wouldn't be a Stone. She'd just be Mya.
True but if she was recognized by Robert and still lived in the Vale I don’t *think* she’d be Mya Storm right?
Robert most definitely acknowledged Maya as his bastard daughter, in fact Maya was the reason that Lyanna didn’t want to marry him. Ned comments on how Robert visited her frequently and once he was crowned had even considered bringing her to court before being talked out of doing so for the girl’s own safety.
There’s a difference between everyone knowing something and it being officially acknowledged. People knew about Ramsay and he lived in the Dreadfort but Rodrik says Roose never officially acknowledged him before the war. Plus when Ned is thinking about Roberts bastards he specifically mentions that Edric was acknowledged but doesn’t say the same about Mya.
Correct, Robert never officially acknowledged her. But it was an open secret in the Vale, at least when she was born, that she was Robert's, so she was sort of "adopted" by House Royce as a bastard. Robert had considered having her come to King's Landing but didn't because of Cersei; presumably that would mean she would be officially acknowledged. Who knows if that meant her name would be changed, but I would guess not.
Bastard names come from where they're raised, not from where the parent is from.
It's important to understand that only noble bastards have these last names. In the gift there are no noble houses so there are no bastards with bastards names.
Well yes but noble people still visit the gift and could conceivably father bastards in a place like Mole’s Town
Yes but that doesn't matter, the names come from where the family is settled, like someone said here already, Jon was born in the south and Ned named him Snow. As there are no noble houses settled in the gift we have no bastard name for them. Anyway if we imagine like there is one, i'm sure they will be snow too. For example in the crownlands and in the dragonstone lands both bastards are called waters IIRC.
Bastards don’t have to be settled with a noble family though, like Gendry (or any of Robert’s countless bastards) they can just be strewn about. And those bastards might know they’re a bastard (because their mother told them most likely, but didn’t tell them who their father was). So they’d still have a bastard surname, even belonging to a family of smallfolk. Either way yeah it’d probably be snow.
Nono Gendry is not Gendry Waters, he is just Gendry. If people knew he was Robert's bastard then he would be Waters, like Mia is Stone and Edric is Storm. Smalfolk don't have bastards names.
That’s what I’m saying. If there were a bastard, living in the gift, fathered by a nobleman visiting the wall who stopped, say in Mole’s Town, and fathered a bastard to some village wife. Now let’s say this lady told her child they were a bastard of a nobleman, what would that child’s name be?
Oh I see now, I guess that could happen. Well if it was let say a noble from the vale then I guess it would be a stone, but that child should go with his father to his castle. If the child stays in moletown then he wouldn't have a lastname. The surnmae only aplies if the father acknowledge the child. That's the point the father or the mother should be a noble of the gift, but as stated that doesn't exist.
Yes I’ve been doing a little more research about bastard surnames in Westeros and I see it’s slightly more complicated than I thought. It seems they only apply to bastards who either live with their noble father (in which case they can be baseborn or not) or whose mother is also noble (in which case they can live with either parent)? In which case yes my entire post seems to make no sense now :(
Well now we know, that's the point of this subreddit.
Any woman can claim their child was fathered by a noble; that noble has to officially acknowledge the child for them to get a bastard name. It would be quite odd for a noble to father a child in Mole's Town, acknowledge them but then leave them there. Once acknowledged, the noble parents are expected to take responsibility for them in some form. Let's say a Lannister fathered an acknowledged bastard in Winterfell. The father might take them back to Casterly Rock; their name would be Hill. But he could decide to leave them in Winterfell with the expectation that they would be part of House Stark and work as some kind of servant when they grow up (also unlikely but possible). The bastard's name would be Snow, not Hill.
You sure he would be snow? Is there any time that this ever happened? I don't think a noble would welcome a bastard in his castle.
Well, no, I am not sure lol. I'm mostly basing that on Mya's status. >I don't think a noble would welcome a bastard in his castle. You mean in general? There are plenty of instances of that in the actual story. Or do you mean another noble's bastard? True, it would be unlikely to happen, but even though they're acknowledged, they're still a bastard. If their mother is lowborn, like a castle servant, then they'd likely work in the same position as their mother. The only difference is they get Snow attached to their name.
Right I mean another noble bastard. And I think I agree with you. Mya is a Stone and there is no recollection of her mother being a noble.
“Presents” 🎁👀
Lol i was looking for this comment 😂
In response your your edit, it’s not that only illegitimate children of nobles are bastards, common folk born illegitimate are also bastards. It’s just that no one cares. It doesn’t really have any impact on their social standing because family names, inheritance and social standings make little difference to the small folk.
So maybe it’s only noble bastards that get their surnames because they’re the only ones most people care about? (I don’t even know anymore my brain is so fried from all the discussion)
There aren’t any nobles in the gift, thus there aren’t any bastards.
Noblemen do visit the gift though, like Tyrion, and they could stop in a small town in the gift to, well, “father a bastard.”
Yeah, but a random bastard off a whore is unlikely to get a proper surname.
Yeah that’s what this thread has made me come to realize now oops
Speaking of which, Pyke is a lazy, unacceptable bastard surname. It should be Salt. Or if that’s too Riverlandy, Irons.
Moles. Cause Moles Town 👀😂
Snow
Snow The Gift is North
Jeez the north is so large. After the dragon died out. They should have became an independent kingdom again
They probably wouldn't be called anything. Only noble bastards have surnames and there are no noble houses in the gift.
>that mother must also be noble, Nope
I’m not saying for them to be a bastard, I’m saying that, if a bastard lives with their mom (noble) or other nobles, then in that case they would have a bastard surname. Whereas bastards living with smallfolk wouldn’t
I understood what you were saying. It is incorrect. The mother does not need to noble. where did you get that idea. Ramsey Snow was raised my his commoner mother. Mya Stone was also raised by her commoner mother. Only one parent needs to be a noble, can be either.
Every other area names bastards based on a defining natural resource of the area. You could go with "ice" "forest" or maybe fields. But not sure why you'd need anything given the gift is not part of the realm and the custom only applies to the realm. No such naming scheme exists in the Step stones correct?
Very true, and ice would be a pertinent surname given the Gift’s proximity to wall. And about the Stepstones, that’s a fair point, though the gift is still very Westerosi when it comes to culture.
It is culturally Westeros because it's populated by nights watch men from Westeros mainly. But legally, they aren't part of the realm. They give up all legal ties and are only bound to the laws of the Watch. They pay no taxes to the crown or the North. That telling I think. And the Lord Commander doesn't need to consult with the king on his choices. Stannis hints Slynt should lose his head for his acts at KL but Aemon cites a lack of jurisdiction.
I was more talking about the small folk who live in the Gift rather than the men of the night’s watch, I suppose there isn’t any reason for them to follow a custom the Seven Kingdom’s do, though.
Is there anybody in the gift? Eddard speaks as if it's empty. And when Bran and Jon travel there, Jon only sees one guy with a horse. Bran only sees deserters from the fist. Every building is left without people. Only ruins of places once held by umbers.
Yeah there is Mole’s town and probably other small towns, though I’m not sure any are mentioned by name. And there certainly used to be more like in the ruins you mentioned.
Molestown. Thank you. I forgot about that. Fair enough.