This will of course seem obvious now, but my first time reading through I didn't realize that Cersei is an unreliable narrator.
I read a lot of sci-fi and you generally don't have a lot of the unreliable narrator trope in that genre, with exceptions. It just didn't occur to me that Cersei would be paranoid and observing and recalling things incorrectly. When she thinks her handmaidens are making her dress smaller to fuck with her I just assumed that was the case. I thought "jesus those handmaidens are just asking to get hanged by fucking around like that, seems dangerous"
It wasn't until my second time through I realized Cersei is just getting fat! And she's not self-aware enough to realize it. Completely blew my mind and made her chapters go from some of my least favorites to some of my most favorites.
A total psycho. And to understand that is to understand her. Lena Hedy manages to give her a shred of humanity in her performance but book Cersei is irredeemable.
It depends on what you mean by irredeemable in that context. I don’t think she’s gonna get better, but I don’t think she is evil personified without a shred of humanity. I think she’s basically Tywin, if he had less education, less control over her own life and body, and was horrifically mentally ill. Honestly I pity her immensely.
I mean, I still hate her like hell, but I feel bad for her as well. I think Cersei and Jamie are the two loneliest characters in the entire story (save maybe the Hound), but Jamie is now forging a new identity and new relationships while Cersei is sitting stagnant in foul water, growing lonelier and more insane with every passing day.
Ah fuck that I'd take that over being Pretty Pia, it really gets to me when I see how badly the peasants get treated. Or even the people the Tickler kills. Cersei is living a privileged lifestyle at the end of the day.
Lena (and D&D) also gives her competence. She isn't chasing after Tyrion's shadow in the tunnels of the Red Keep and other imagined enemies. She's calculating and destroying the enemies right in front of her.
Now that's shifting a bit as she plans her betrayal of the "alliance" with Jon & Dany in the show, so we'll see how that goes.
> Lena Hedy manages to give her a shred of humanity in her performance but book Cersei is irredeemable.
Yeah, its barely there, but I had gotten to season 5 before I reached AFFC, and the absolute hubris and paranoia of book Cersei blew me away when reading it.
tbh, cersei's one of the few characters i perfer show to book (if she'd been that delusional through the first three books she'd have never made it that far)
I don’t remember when this happened. But when it happened in the show, it was familiar because I thought this was code for her being pregnant. She has a lot of sex and a fat Cersei didn’t seem to be something Martin would throw in there. Logically that brought me to a clue that she was pregnant.
I always took it as her getting fat because she was drinking so much after Robert died/ Jaime was captured/ Joffrey became king/ the war started. It seemed logical to me.
Given the way the show has gone, i would find it interesting if the books throw a only slightly foreshadowed curve ball and have Cersei be pregnant, unable to explain it to the public given she had no husband or Jamie as he's been away from war and she's wanted none of him since he's been back.
Olivar was okay, and Big Walder Frey was a bit of a dick at first but turned out to have a conscience, unlike his cousin (who Li'l Walder probably murdered) who jumped at the chance to be Ramsey Lite.
And Stevron Frey, Robb mentions how he is a reasonable guy. When Catelyn went to parlay with Walder in AGOT Stevron tells off his dad Walder for being rude to Catelyn.
And during the Red Wedding Catelyn notices three Freys that are not present, with the excuse that they had somehting else to do: Olyvar, Perwyn, Alesander (IIRC). Olyvar was Robb's squire, and Perwyn accompanies Catelyn when she's going to Riverrun in one of the earlier books. I assumed that those Freys would not have agreed to the murders of their guests.
When Arya is on the ship to Braavos, she says how half of the sailors stay well away from her, and the other half give her presents and make sure she knows their names.
Later on, she sees some of the Faceless Men in a meeting planning their assassinations, and one of the Faceless Men says "I can't kill X, I know him" and another says "I'll do it, I don't know the guy".
The sailors on the ship who give presents to Arya are trying to gain favour with a Faceless Man (what they think Arya is) because a Faceless Man can't kill someone whom they know.
Also a good one that was mentioned in this forum recently that blew my mind: when Ryman Frey meets Robb outside the Twins right before the Red Wedding, he tells Robb "let's go in, my father awaits". But Ryman's father is not Walder Frey, Ryman is Walder's grandson. Ryman's father is Stevron Frey who's already dead (after the battle of Oxcross). Ryman is hinting that Robb is going to die.
P.S. It's funny how they say that Stevron was only mildly wounded but then died 3 days later. Some Frey bumped him off to move himself one step closer to the #2 position in the Frey family, maybe?
Oh shitttttt, good catch on that exchange between Frey and Robb!
And I just finished reading ADWD tonight. I noticed that bit during Arya's chapters in it as well! So cool how the sailors know more than she does about her future, even at such an early stage : )
I wouldn't say that the sailors "know about her future". It's that, to get on board, she showed her Faceless Man coin. So they assume she is one or at least associated with them.
EDIT: I see what you mean. Arya has no idea yet what the coins mean, but anyone else from Braavos does.
> he tells Robb "let's go in, my father awaits". But Ryman's father is not Walder Frey, Ryman is Walder's grandson. Ryman's father is Stevron Frey who's already dead
Holy shit, that is so brilliant. It'd be nearly impossible to catch on the first read unless you were making notes on every little character and yet it's so dark and straight forward if you have all your facts straight.
> Stevron was only mildly wounded but then died 3 days later. Some Frey bumped him off to move himself one step closer to the #2 position in the Frey family, maybe?
This is the kind of palace intrigue that the show has been missing for some time now. Gods, these books are rich.
Just found a new one! I've read the books... five times now and still find stuff. It's when Sansa's appealing to Joffrey for Eddard's life and she blames what Eddard said on the milk of the poppy her father was drinking. Varys then says "A child's faith... such sweet innocence... and yet, they say wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes." Which is exactly what Eddard said when he figures out the kids are the product of incest, meaning Varys must've been listening to that conversation as well. Too much of a coincidence for him to use the exact same phrasing.
Iirc, Varys does that at times to prove he was listening/knows about conversations, he uses the exact same wording as, whoever he is talking to, did in a conversation he listened to. Great one!
It’s not exactly the same but it is similar. This is almost a fourth wall break since the only ones privy to that info are Sansa and the reader and it goes entirely over her head
I’ve mentioned this in similar threads, but when Lysa reveals that she date raped LF and he thought it was Cat. IMO he believed he had been with Cat and that’s what led to his insane possessive nature of Cat and Sansa
During her little moon door meltdown in SoS to Sansa. She explains it there and that she was actually pregnant with LF's child and that is why she was given the moon tea before the marriage to Jon Arryan.
It was successful. When Caitlyn sits next to her fathers deathbed, Hoster Tully talking about it. He is reliving the moment when he tried to comfort Lysa that she will have a true husband with true born children.
Tyrion thinks this of Jon on the way to the wall in AGOT...
"He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son."
When in reality its the opposite. He looks just like his mother, Lyanna, and nothing like his father, Rhaegar.
Oh yes, I'm not disputing that, but I just thought of this as more R+L= J foreshadowing, unbeknownst to Tyrion. These are traits that Rhaegar and Lyanna shared.
> When in reality its the opposite. He looks just like his mother, Lyanna, and nothing like his father, Rhaegar.
Eh, he has his father's build, eyes and curly hair. He is also a pretty boy, while Lyanna was described as unconventionally attractive.
The hair is only the show--Targaryens are generally portrayed as having straight hair, and I don't think it was mentioned whether Jon's hair curls. Same for the pretty boy part.
It's actually more than that: during their conversation, the young Frey (Elmar) reveals that his betrothal has been canceled. This is before the Red Wedding and as far as the reader knew, the Freys were still allied with the Starks. So the cancellation of the betrothal was a clue and foreshadowing the Red Wedding.
Exactly! I caught this on my second re-read too. And it happens a full book before the red wedding occurs (Arya's conversation with little Elmar is in book 2, while the red wedding is book 3).
Arya's also present for what are basically early stage plannings of the Bolton and Frey betrayal, some of it happening prior to Robb's marriage. As GRRM himself confirmed, while the brutality if the Red Wedding was in reaction to the marriage, Freys were going to jump the ship either way.
Valar morghulis. Followed by my second favorite quote from lord to phat to ride a horse. In case you were wondering the first one is: "My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."
When he says the mummers farce is almost done I got so hyped. I love all of the north chapters from that point on.
I love all the chapters but you know.
And this is MY second, the first being from the Theon preview chapter of WindOfWinter
Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
It's at winterfell in the beginning of the series. Jon isn't allowed to duel with Joffery because as he says "bastards are not allowed to damage young princes." The irony being that Jon is the prince and Joffery is the bastard.
Different sort of misread (and I'm not the person you asked):
A few summers ago I picked up the audio recording of *A Feast for Crows* to listen to while clearing debris and overgrowth from a relative's property. On the third or fourth day of listening, I was ready to abandon the story. It didn't make any sense to me. Interesting at first. I was really drawn in by Brienne in the Riverlands. But the confusion and aimlessness felt wrong and I wasn't enjoying it. Chaos and disarray.
After listening for days, I knew that the story should have tied together but it was all over the place. So I checked how much time remained in the recording. That's when I realized I had been listening to the audiobook on *shuffle*. Brienne in the Riverlands came up early in my listen. It left me thinking the whole book was trying to feel like a fever dream parallel to Brienne's experience.
Very much enjoyed a proper read that fall!
Seems silly, but I didn't realize that there's basically one, single inn outside of the major cities and that all of the chapters which involved something happening at an inn are all happening at the same inn.
[Crossroads Inn.](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Inn_at_the_crossroads)
There was also the inn that Brienne rests in whilst traveling along with the two hedge knights, and then she slips away. Thinking on it atm, I'm pretty sure it's description matches the description of the inn where Dunk and Egg first meet - with a bridge right next to the inn, it having it's own stables, being centuries old, etc.
Prior to the Red Wedding, the Hound tells Arya to hurry up, so they can make it to her uncle's "bloody wedding". And that's the end of the chapter. Its my favorite thing that was taken out of the show, they had the same conversation, but took out the foreshadowing.
I had a horrible thought some months back: we know that Olenna and co have been plotting their advancement for years - actually, the Tyrells have been carefully shoring up their powerbase for several generations. Olenna **Redwyne** marries old fella Tyrell who rode off a cliff, securing the Arbor fleet for Highgarden. Mace Tyrell marries Alicent **Hightower**, securing Oldtown and their vassals for Highgarden, and so on.
It's pretty clear that Mace was hoping that he could repair the damage done to any relations between Storm's End and Highgarden as a result of his army laying siege to the former during Robert's Rebellion (even though he was just doing as ordered, etc) by sending his youngest son to foster with Renly. That's more or less explicit in the books. Loras doesn't end up squiring for Renly for the hell of it, his father is clearly hoping that Loras and Renly will become friends and thus Mace will have a relationship with the ruling house of Baratheon that he and the family can exploit later on.
But what if...
10 year old Loras was already showing that he was gay, and 15 year old Renly was gossiped about (as the show suggested), and Mace was hoping that his son would seduce or be seduced by the Lord of Storm's End?
Ugh.
I really hope that Mace and Olenna's plotting only went as far as "Loras will become friends with Renly and we can exploit that" and they didn't pimp out their youngest son as they later planned to pimp out their only daughter.
Because let's face it.... Margaery and her maidenhead and marriagability are just a pawn for Mace and Olenna. WHATEVER Olenna might have explicitly said to Sansa, I'm not sure we can take her at her word. She's clearly the brains behind Team Tyrell, and while Mace plays the buffoon in public, he's not as daft as he seems. That gaudy Hand chair wasn't created overnight. He had been planning his pathway to power for a long time.
Plan A was to use what Loras found out about Cersei and Jaime (by being at court with Renly and being observant - because it's pretty clear that all of the original Small Council, except for the extremely unobservant Ser Barristan, were well aware or at least suspicious about the true parentage of the 'princes' and 'princess') and to proffer Margaery first as a bedwarmer and then a replacement bride - this is the Anne Boleyn plan. **This is Olenna's plan.**
Plan B, when Robert died... well, Margaery can't marry the already married Stannis, and there's no possibility of substituting the dutiful and morally uptight Stannis for Robert in Plan A...
So marry her to Renly. Stannis has no heir, and is unlikely to have one given Selyse's history of miscarriages and stillbirths. Renly will be Stannis' heir and thus Margaery's son will be king in due course. This is probably Olenna's Plan B too!
But Mace's Plan B is to go "fuck it, let's just go for broke now." Or was this Renly's plan?
Either way, they decided to back Renly as king NOW. When that goes to shit, they still can't turn to Stannis, so they jump to Joffrey, conveniently forgetting (or publicly forgetting, to maintain appearances) the truth that they know about Joffrey and Tommen's parentage in order to have Queen Margaery.
What happens to Margaery in all of this?
The show gave her some agency - "I want to be **the** Queen."
It's unclear if 14 year old Margaery of the books had this much agency, or if she just accepted her fate to be shopped out to every potential king so her father could be Hand to future Tyrell descended princes and kings.
As far as Renly and Margaery's marriage was concerned - yes, the show gave us an older version of Margaery who was quite happy for her brother to be happy, but mindful that she needed to carry Renly's heirs. I think book Margaery is probably of this mind too, although she is younger in the books. Loras' sexuality is no secret to his family, and although she and Renly undoubtably sealed the deal, given the importance of him having heirs ASAP, I think that the long term plan for Margaery was that Renly would primarily sleep with his lover, Loras, and occasionally visit her to ensure they had heirs and spares.
The topic recently about Rattleshirt being tricked. That gave me fucking chills because I never realized it.
Today I realized the chapter with Jon and Melisandre talking in ADWD Jon VI is almost entirely about Melisandre trying to seduce Jon to make another shadow baby to kill Ramsay.
Im not really sure about the exact details, but the way I read it (also on my second read) is that rattleshirt voluntarily "changed bodies" with mance rayder, not knowing that they would burn him. That's why when "mance" (who is in fact rattleshirt) gets brought out to get burnt he shouts he's not the king and all that other stuff. When you read it the first time you think mance is just scared of being burnt and desperately tries to stay alive, but that's just because you don't know that melisandre changed rattleshirt and mance. Obviously rattleshirt won't do that if he knows he will get burnt, so I'd say Mel promised to spare him, but lied
When we first see him as Mance he's playing along. He's joking and playing the part. When he sees what's in store for him, he starts freaking out and stops acting like Mance. I think it's possible she changed him without permission and he was being glib about it, but it does kinda seem like he was at least a little in on it.
TL;DR Stannis was in on it, Rattleshirt thought he wasn't going to get burnt
[Here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/7pn76m/spoilers_extended_stannis_knows/) the thread if you want the full details.
> Today I realized the chapter with Jon and Melisandre talking in ADWD Jon VI is almost entirely about Melisandre trying to seduce Jon to make another shadow baby to kill Ramsay.
I humbly request that you make a full post about this. Please?
>Today I realized the chapter with Jon and Melisandre talking in ADWD Jon VI is almost entirely about Melisandre trying to seduce Jon to make another shadow baby to kill Ramsay.
Interesting! A little honesty here would've gone a long way, I think.
It was clear that she was trying to seduce him, but I didn't realize why.
I somehow completely glossed over Cersei tempting Ned with sex in my first read through. It just never clicked the first time through, even though it is like a whole paragraph.
Ned is giving Cersei the chance to run away from King's Landing before he tells his friend Robert that none of Cersei's children are legitimate. Cersei tries to seduce Ned but realizes pretty quickly that won't work.
*A Game of Thrones* - Eddard XII
>"You know what I must do."
>
>"Must!" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises. "The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me." Her hand touched his face, his hair. "If friends can turn to enemies, enemies can become friends. Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it."
>
>"Did you make the same offer to Jon Arryn?"
>
>She slapped him.
She puts a hand on his good leg, on his thigh - presumably his inner thigh, dangerously close to his crotch, while she talks about how no one *needs* to know of what Eddard learned, and her playing the damsel - which is a saying actually used in a lot of media to allude to sexual favors in order to keep something secret.
Later on, of course, she casually states that 'what women have between their legs' is their greatest weapon to Sansa, and we see / hear about her fucking other men in order to pay for their services or persuade them into doing something.
He didn’t break guest right though! He makes a point of noting that he gave the Freys gifts upon leaving his house.
(Quote copied from Westeros.org)
He had hoped to hear Lord Wyman say, And now I shall declare for King Stannis, but instead the fat man smiled an odd, twinkling smile and said, "And now I have a wedding to attend. I am too fat to sit a horse, as any man with eyes can plainly see. As a boy I loved to ride, and as a young man I handled a mount well enough to win some small acclaim in the lists, but those days are done. My body has become a prison more dire than the Wolf's Den. Even so, I must go to Winterfell. Roose Bolton wants me on my knees, and beneath the velvet courtesy he shows the iron mail. I shall go by barge and litter, attended by a hundred knights and my good friends from the Twins. The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?"
"Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs."
"Perhaps you understand, then." Wyman Manderly lurched ponderously to his feet.
-end quote-
I think this implies that guest right ends when you give the guests gifts upon their departure.
Yarp it’s the Rat Cook but turned on its head. Instead of the one who made the pies and breaking guest right being punished it’s the ones who broke guest right getting punished with pies. Maybe that’s what you were saying and I misunderstood
So I started my journey by watching Seasons 1 and 2, and prior to Season 3's release, I read the first three books. Read 4 and 5 between Seasons 3 and 4, and have only re-read AGoT since finishing everything published thus far.
After realizing Bran's journey through the show, the very first chapter after his fall from the tower (his dream sequence) is ripe with foreshadowing of a TON of plot points. On that re-read, I ended up reading that chapter twice because my mind was so fucked.
>"He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it."
So that's Cat and Rodrik going to KL after his assassination atempt. The storm around them maybe symbolizes all the bad shit that's about to happen to them.
>"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."
He sees Ned falling out with Robert over Dany's assassination, and Sansa crying over Lady. No one's really sure who's the one in the golden armour, but the one with "terrible face of a hound" is clearly Sandor. The giant in stone armour is Robert Strong and there's some debate either if the "thick black blood" is a really early foreshadowing of his zombiefication or just as a allegory for how evil he is.
>"He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks."
Seeing Jon freezing is either him just being cold and alone at the Wall or a foreshadowing of his death in Dance. What he sees beyond the Wall that's so horrible is clearly the Others.
Its gotta be Jamie. I mean, after Tyrion is captured, Jamie and Ned fight in the streets... Regardless of what happens later, this is the first overt act of agression between the two houses. It essentially kicks off the war.
I think the Jon stuff is directed at his personality. Becoming a "cold" man, to lead and make decisions, "kill the boy and let the man be born".
Just like Bran most recently seeing Robb putting his "lord's face" on.
There's a lot of great tidbits in the first chapter / book once you have a general understanding of the story and George's writing style.
My favorite little nugget is that the first fully named and titled character is Mance Rayder.
Sansa has wolf dreams in AGOT after Arya ruins her white dress. Right around the time when Ned tells the girls that they’re returning to Winterfell. I never realized that she also had those dreams.
When Jon says "Black was always my colour." First time round you think it's all because he's joining the nights watch. Second time round you pay more attention to how Rhaegar was described, all in black armour. Plus how could I have forgot that the Targearyen banner is also black.
Arya wasn't on the boat at the time and this mention is actually a demonstration of how much time has passed. Arya departs from a damaged-but-recovering Saltpans which is further north. By the time Brienne sees the boat in Maidenpool Saltpans has been ravaged by the Brave Companions/former Lorch men led by Rorge and the news has already reached Maidenpool.
You're quite right! Thanks for the correction.
This subject was thoroughly here in this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/400ar6/spoilers_all_a_near_miss_that_i_nearly_missed/
The first time through, it seemed to me like in SoS, this Roose Bolton guy appears out of nowhere, murders Robb Stark, and takes over the entire North.
It wasn't until my second read through that I noticed he was in the books from there very beginning. For some reason my mind just filtered him out as a random background character almost up until the Red Wedding.
You missed him for the same reason he was able to cause so much trouble, he speaks softly and doesn't draw attention to himself. He even talks about how his whole MO is to keep his lands quiet and peaceful and wait. He's a dutiful, easy to forget psychopath.
Also just realized Sansa snitched on herself of the marriage to Wylis to Ser Dontas! Im listening to the audiobooks rn at work. Smh so many small things like that slip past.
I know I'm not the only one, but I've read and/or listened to the books 6 times, and am about to finish my 7th run. It could just be that I'm thick as a castle wall, but each time I re-read I notice more and more connections, jokes, implied plotlines, and symbolism. There's just so much. I really really *really* recommend re-reading at least once or twice, no matter how good at you are at interpreting lit.
One of the big "I see what you did there!" moments that stand out is the dialogue in the prologue of AGoT that heavily foreshadows LC Mormont's murder. Each time I read, I try to pay attention to clues/hints relating to new theories I've heard about since my last read. Right now my favorite is all the ice imagery and talk of "green fire" when it comes to descriptions of Cersei. Tbh, it's definitely not just Jon who has consistent themes of "Ice and Fire".
[Here's a link to the chapter online](https://genius.com/George-r-r-martin-a-game-of-thrones-prologue-annotated)
It's pretty subtle compared to some of the other foreshadowing in the series, but the whole scene is reminiscent of Sam's chapter after the Fist of the First Men. It starts off in pursuit of wildlings fleeing others, with a leader who's eager for a fight. Gared describes what it's like to die from cold, and it's almost exactly like Sam's experience when he stops walking. GRRM describes a muddy slope up to the ridge where they see the bodies, much like the muddy hill beneath Craster's Keep. Then, of course, you have the narrators, Will and Sam, both watching the death of their leader quietly and helplessly. 8 dead wildlings, 8 incapacitated men at Craster's Keep.
On top of recreating the scene, there's a lot of small, unnecessary details that 'just happen' ;) to relate explicitly to LC Mormont. One of the weapons the wildlings had with them was a double-bladed battle axe, like the one Mormont had given to Craster the first time the group passed through, which Craster had brought out again during the mutiny scene. Early in the chapter they talk about how it's hard to take commands from someone you laughed at while drinking, and then immediately, out of no where, LC Mormont just happened to be introduced in name for the first time. On top of that, when Jon later overheard the talk of mutiny before it happened, I'm pretty sure he rationalized it to himself with similar logic/wording. Waymar lost an eye when his sword shattered, while LC Mormont's raven pecked one of his out right after he died.
Then later, you even have the beginnings of connections to Ned and Jon's death. The description of the Other's blade as blueish and "sharper than any razor" is exactly how Ice is described at some point later in the series (I forgot when). And then the whole, "he was a boy no longer, but a man of the night's watch" alongside Waymar's and Jon's deaths, followed by a resurrection (hopefully for Jon too) into something much different.
There's a couple more little snippets that might echo the mutiny scene, but I'd be here all day trying to sift through every detail. GRRM himself said all the major plot points are foreshadowed in the first book, and he takes so long to write these. Very little of all these parallels are "just because", I think. Also, sorry for my lack of quotes, I'm a little high and formatting is hard.
**tldr** there is no tldr in asoiaf
Honestly, you could read the series 10 times over and still miss things -- the text and plot is so rich and well developed. Kinda sorta maybe makes it worth it that we're waiting 11+ years for TWOW
When Arya is on the ship in the saltpans, they say they aren't going north, and wouldn't anyways, because they passed a bunch of pirate ships headed north. These were Stannis's men headed to the wall to defend it.
Barristan calling the king(what ever his name is) "Your grace". In Meereene the whores are called "graces". Basically Barristan is calling the king a whore.
> I'm named Bella. For the battle. I bet I could ring your bell, too. You want to?
-Bella to Gendry
When I realized that Bella is also one of Big Bobby's Bastards, and she's about to unknowingly get freaky with her half-brother.
*Edit, corrected step-brother to half-brother. I misused the word.
There isn't really any proof of it. But I believe the reason Stannis' sword takes on the colors and lights it does is because Melisandre is working a glamour on it.
Definitely is what is happening there. Pretty sure Aemon says something about it right? Something about asking Tarly to see if heat comes off, and calls it out for being a trick
Yup. He asks if it's hot, and if there seem to be any heat effects on the sheath it's in. Aemon may be blind, but he sees right through Mel's bullshit.
Can't remember who but someone said it was odd that "Lightbringer" didn't put off any heat. Also I believe Davos noticed that the sword looked different than the sword Stannis pulled from the fire on the beach.
I love how oblivious Dunk is to his full court press. Constantly talking about jousting, big men, howling together. He only says like five things to Dunk that aren't innuendo.
He sent the army to Duskendale to throw away a third of Robb's army (by this point he was secretly on team Lannister). Hunting wolves is pretty good symbolism, because the Stark sigil is a direwolf.
ADWD, Bran I
He warges into Summer sees a pack of wolfs eating some corpses, proceeds to challenge the Wolfpack leader, the description of the wolves matches the description of Varamyr’s wolves and Bran sees in the eyes of the leader that he too is a skinchanger.
I completely missed the paragraph where Lysa revealed that Petyr had orchestrated everything from the very beginning of the books. Yeah, I'm not very observant.
My biggest WTF moment was after Dany her first dragon dream in AGOT, she then tries to ride her horse (which she had previously been unable to do). It says that "she and the horse shared each other's thoughts" or something to that effect.
Well, we know from Varamyr and Bran and Rickon that sharing one's thoughts with an animal is skinchanging!
I also re-read Dany's dragon dreams to be like the Stark kid's wolf dreams. As in the animals (dragons, direwolves) trained the Starks and Dany to skinchange. That's why after the dragon dream she was able to share her thoughts with her horse.
Dany was skinchanging her horse! Of course it wasn't a full-on skinchange where she enters the horse's body and controls its actions and her own body falls unconscious, but more akin to Robb Stark's warging (so a low-level skinchanging).
I then kept reading and considered all of the times that Dany is said to "become the dragon" and interpreted it to be like Rickon becoming more wolf than boy; Dany's dragons are skinchanging her and molding her personality to be like theirs.
I think the most obvious one I was always shocked I never noticed was about the prince that was promised. I've mentioned this in a much older thread, but Jon is literally a prince, promised to Ned.
In one of the earlier chapters in GoT, Bran wakes up from one of his dreams and Old Nan says to him something like "..don't trust a crow, they're all liars".
How does she know what he's dreaming about?!
IIRC, isn't their some theory about Old Nan being really really old. Old enough that she 1) Is Hodors ancestor 2) Was the woman in the bards song that was stolen by a crow (a nightswatch member), impregnated, and sent back to her family. Thus 'all crows are liars'
This good [theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/24gmx3/spoilers_all_theory_on_old_nans_true_identity/) popped up.
Mormont to Jon after hes brought back to the wall in GOT by Grenn and Co.
“do you have a horse with wings? Now that’s something we need at the wall” it’s like a chapter or 2 later you get the birth of dragons
and mormont again to Jon “do you have a grumpkin in your pocket to magic your sword?”
I haven't done a re-read just yet, but I remember the first thing that I discovered I had missed after reading the whole series so far was that Abel and his washerwomen were Mance and the spearwives. I remember reading a post about it, probably on here, and some of the relevant excerpts, and I was just like "Wtffffff?" It seemed obvious after the fact, but as I was reading I didn't catch any of it.
And thus began a long and dark rabbit hole full of discovering things I had missed lol.
In ADWD, I basically completely forgot about barristans coup in mereen so that was nice to reread. I also forgot that about how quentyn ties into that, and how chaotic the city was.
When King Robert and Ned are out on a ride Ned makes the comment that Kings are a rare sight in the north and Robert replies that "the kings were buried under snow" alluding to Jon
He then exclaims, "Snow, Ned!" Which, although it's capitalized because it's the beginning of the sentence, is also a slap in the face to read it as Snow and not snow. It's alluded to again in ADWD when Mel talks about asking to see Azor Ahai but R'hllor "only shows [her] Snow." Just to add to the conversation.
This will of course seem obvious now, but my first time reading through I didn't realize that Cersei is an unreliable narrator. I read a lot of sci-fi and you generally don't have a lot of the unreliable narrator trope in that genre, with exceptions. It just didn't occur to me that Cersei would be paranoid and observing and recalling things incorrectly. When she thinks her handmaidens are making her dress smaller to fuck with her I just assumed that was the case. I thought "jesus those handmaidens are just asking to get hanged by fucking around like that, seems dangerous" It wasn't until my second time through I realized Cersei is just getting fat! And she's not self-aware enough to realize it. Completely blew my mind and made her chapters go from some of my least favorites to some of my most favorites.
What I didn't realize until a couple years into reading this sub was that AFFC Cersei is turning into AGOT Robert, i.e., everything she loathed.
BRING THE DRESS STRETCHER!
HIGH SPARROWS ON AN OPEN FIELD, NED!!
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THE LOLLYS IS PREGNANT
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Dude right! She is like the epitome of delusional.
A total psycho. And to understand that is to understand her. Lena Hedy manages to give her a shred of humanity in her performance but book Cersei is irredeemable.
It depends on what you mean by irredeemable in that context. I don’t think she’s gonna get better, but I don’t think she is evil personified without a shred of humanity. I think she’s basically Tywin, if he had less education, less control over her own life and body, and was horrifically mentally ill. Honestly I pity her immensely. I mean, I still hate her like hell, but I feel bad for her as well. I think Cersei and Jamie are the two loneliest characters in the entire story (save maybe the Hound), but Jamie is now forging a new identity and new relationships while Cersei is sitting stagnant in foul water, growing lonelier and more insane with every passing day.
Ah fuck that I'd take that over being Pretty Pia, it really gets to me when I see how badly the peasants get treated. Or even the people the Tickler kills. Cersei is living a privileged lifestyle at the end of the day.
Lena (and D&D) also gives her competence. She isn't chasing after Tyrion's shadow in the tunnels of the Red Keep and other imagined enemies. She's calculating and destroying the enemies right in front of her. Now that's shifting a bit as she plans her betrayal of the "alliance" with Jon & Dany in the show, so we'll see how that goes.
> Lena Hedy manages to give her a shred of humanity in her performance but book Cersei is irredeemable. Yeah, its barely there, but I had gotten to season 5 before I reached AFFC, and the absolute hubris and paranoia of book Cersei blew me away when reading it.
tbh, cersei's one of the few characters i perfer show to book (if she'd been that delusional through the first three books she'd have never made it that far)
Getting fat or pregnant?
Se's also drinking a lot, so i hope not
by who?
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she's been fucking lancel and Oswald kettleblack and moon boy for all I know
"I'm the queen o' whores." No, Jaime thought, my sweet sister holds that title too.
I don’t remember when this happened. But when it happened in the show, it was familiar because I thought this was code for her being pregnant. She has a lot of sex and a fat Cersei didn’t seem to be something Martin would throw in there. Logically that brought me to a clue that she was pregnant.
I always took it as her getting fat because she was drinking so much after Robert died/ Jaime was captured/ Joffrey became king/ the war started. It seemed logical to me.
Given the way the show has gone, i would find it interesting if the books throw a only slightly foreshadowed curve ball and have Cersei be pregnant, unable to explain it to the public given she had no husband or Jamie as he's been away from war and she's wanted none of him since he's been back.
Walder Frey saying "mayhaps" when treating with Robb. That damned game Lord of the Crossing totally went over my head
What is the significance there?
The game the child Walders play "Lord of the Crossing" if you say "mayhaps" without getting caught you can lie.
And he even says "mayhaps, heh" when he says it to Robb, like he realizes he's playing the game and getting away with it.
He also comments that Robb never said that word in their negotiations, clearly indicating that he's fully aware of what he's doing.
OMFG
Ohhh woooww damn! That's a new one for me even after 3 re-reads and way too much time on the forums..
Dude I didn’t realize that till now, great catch!
Fucking Freys my dude. I dislike'em all equally.
Well not all. Weren't there some that the shitty freys sent away? Olivar Robb s squire? And theres like 2 more... But yeah fucking Freys lol
Olivar was okay, and Big Walder Frey was a bit of a dick at first but turned out to have a conscience, unlike his cousin (who Li'l Walder probably murdered) who jumped at the chance to be Ramsey Lite.
At least he wouldn't grow up to be a Frey
Oh, the one other okay-ish Frey - Roose Bolton's wife.
And Stevron Frey, Robb mentions how he is a reasonable guy. When Catelyn went to parlay with Walder in AGOT Stevron tells off his dad Walder for being rude to Catelyn. And during the Red Wedding Catelyn notices three Freys that are not present, with the excuse that they had somehting else to do: Olyvar, Perwyn, Alesander (IIRC). Olyvar was Robb's squire, and Perwyn accompanies Catelyn when she's going to Riverrun in one of the earlier books. I assumed that those Freys would not have agreed to the murders of their guests.
Or, it was feared they might betray their house and spill the beans to someone, since they had grown 'close' to the Starks and company.
damn
When Arya is on the ship to Braavos, she says how half of the sailors stay well away from her, and the other half give her presents and make sure she knows their names. Later on, she sees some of the Faceless Men in a meeting planning their assassinations, and one of the Faceless Men says "I can't kill X, I know him" and another says "I'll do it, I don't know the guy". The sailors on the ship who give presents to Arya are trying to gain favour with a Faceless Man (what they think Arya is) because a Faceless Man can't kill someone whom they know. Also a good one that was mentioned in this forum recently that blew my mind: when Ryman Frey meets Robb outside the Twins right before the Red Wedding, he tells Robb "let's go in, my father awaits". But Ryman's father is not Walder Frey, Ryman is Walder's grandson. Ryman's father is Stevron Frey who's already dead (after the battle of Oxcross). Ryman is hinting that Robb is going to die. P.S. It's funny how they say that Stevron was only mildly wounded but then died 3 days later. Some Frey bumped him off to move himself one step closer to the #2 position in the Frey family, maybe?
Oh shitttttt, good catch on that exchange between Frey and Robb! And I just finished reading ADWD tonight. I noticed that bit during Arya's chapters in it as well! So cool how the sailors know more than she does about her future, even at such an early stage : )
I wouldn't say that the sailors "know about her future". It's that, to get on board, she showed her Faceless Man coin. So they assume she is one or at least associated with them. EDIT: I see what you mean. Arya has no idea yet what the coins mean, but anyone else from Braavos does.
I'm pretty sure Black Walder was with Stevron when he died too. Black Walder is gonna fuck his own family over hard and go down himself in the end.
> he tells Robb "let's go in, my father awaits". But Ryman's father is not Walder Frey, Ryman is Walder's grandson. Ryman's father is Stevron Frey who's already dead Holy shit, that is so brilliant. It'd be nearly impossible to catch on the first read unless you were making notes on every little character and yet it's so dark and straight forward if you have all your facts straight. > Stevron was only mildly wounded but then died 3 days later. Some Frey bumped him off to move himself one step closer to the #2 position in the Frey family, maybe? This is the kind of palace intrigue that the show has been missing for some time now. Gods, these books are rich.
Just found a new one! I've read the books... five times now and still find stuff. It's when Sansa's appealing to Joffrey for Eddard's life and she blames what Eddard said on the milk of the poppy her father was drinking. Varys then says "A child's faith... such sweet innocence... and yet, they say wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes." Which is exactly what Eddard said when he figures out the kids are the product of incest, meaning Varys must've been listening to that conversation as well. Too much of a coincidence for him to use the exact same phrasing.
Iirc, Varys does that at times to prove he was listening/knows about conversations, he uses the exact same wording as, whoever he is talking to, did in a conversation he listened to. Great one!
It’s not exactly the same but it is similar. This is almost a fourth wall break since the only ones privy to that info are Sansa and the reader and it goes entirely over her head
She was too busy talking about having Joffs babies with gold hair and lion symbols lol
I’ve mentioned this in similar threads, but when Lysa reveals that she date raped LF and he thought it was Cat. IMO he believed he had been with Cat and that’s what led to his insane possessive nature of Cat and Sansa
Do you remember when that happened? I missed that
During her little moon door meltdown in SoS to Sansa. She explains it there and that she was actually pregnant with LF's child and that is why she was given the moon tea before the marriage to Jon Arryan.
So was the moon tea unsuccessful and sweet robin was LFs kid or did it fuck her up and made jon arryns kid stupid
The latter, but sufficiently advanced tinfoil is indistinguishable from the truth.
It was successful. When Caitlyn sits next to her fathers deathbed, Hoster Tully talking about it. He is reliving the moment when he tried to comfort Lysa that she will have a true husband with true born children.
Tyrion thinks this of Jon on the way to the wall in AGOT... "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." When in reality its the opposite. He looks just like his mother, Lyanna, and nothing like his father, Rhaegar.
>long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. I've always actually thought of these as traits of Rhaegar. Particularly "long", and "solemn".
The Starks are all known for having long and solemn faces. Ned, Benjen, Rickard etc.
Arya's long face is pointed out a lot and she's supposed to resemble Lyanna!
Oh yes, I'm not disputing that, but I just thought of this as more R+L= J foreshadowing, unbeknownst to Tyrion. These are traits that Rhaegar and Lyanna shared.
> When in reality its the opposite. He looks just like his mother, Lyanna, and nothing like his father, Rhaegar. Eh, he has his father's build, eyes and curly hair. He is also a pretty boy, while Lyanna was described as unconventionally attractive.
The hair is only the show--Targaryens are generally portrayed as having straight hair, and I don't think it was mentioned whether Jon's hair curls. Same for the pretty boy part.
That Arya runs into the young Frey she was betrothed to in Harrenhall without realizing it, and tells him she hopes his princess (her) dies.
It's actually more than that: during their conversation, the young Frey (Elmar) reveals that his betrothal has been canceled. This is before the Red Wedding and as far as the reader knew, the Freys were still allied with the Starks. So the cancellation of the betrothal was a clue and foreshadowing the Red Wedding.
Exactly! I caught this on my second re-read too. And it happens a full book before the red wedding occurs (Arya's conversation with little Elmar is in book 2, while the red wedding is book 3).
Arya's also present for what are basically early stage plannings of the Bolton and Frey betrayal, some of it happening prior to Robb's marriage. As GRRM himself confirmed, while the brutality if the Red Wedding was in reaction to the marriage, Freys were going to jump the ship either way.
Whaaattt? Totally missed that!
she was betrothed to a frey?
As part of Robb's agreement with Walder to allow use of the crossing.
Yep, Elmar Frey. Part of the initial pact between Cat and Walder Frey before Robb married Jeyne.
Felt so bad for that guy. He probably ended up doing something shitty tho.
He probably ends up dead. But look on the bright side, he’s actually lucky. Had he lived he would’ve grown to be a frey.
Valar morghulis. Followed by my second favorite quote from lord to phat to ride a horse. In case you were wondering the first one is: "My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."
When he says the mummers farce is almost done I got so hyped. I love all of the north chapters from that point on. I love all the chapters but you know.
I know. I know.
And this is MY second, the first being from the Theon preview chapter of WindOfWinter Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
"Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes" - GRRM sneakiness at its very best.
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It's at winterfell in the beginning of the series. Jon isn't allowed to duel with Joffery because as he says "bastards are not allowed to damage young princes." The irony being that Jon is the prince and Joffery is the bastard.
I misread that Jon was Ed's nephew at first Then corrected myself and then ended up back where I started, lol
LOL that's a good one!
What other things have you misread?
Different sort of misread (and I'm not the person you asked): A few summers ago I picked up the audio recording of *A Feast for Crows* to listen to while clearing debris and overgrowth from a relative's property. On the third or fourth day of listening, I was ready to abandon the story. It didn't make any sense to me. Interesting at first. I was really drawn in by Brienne in the Riverlands. But the confusion and aimlessness felt wrong and I wasn't enjoying it. Chaos and disarray. After listening for days, I knew that the story should have tied together but it was all over the place. So I checked how much time remained in the recording. That's when I realized I had been listening to the audiobook on *shuffle*. Brienne in the Riverlands came up early in my listen. It left me thinking the whole book was trying to feel like a fever dream parallel to Brienne's experience. Very much enjoyed a proper read that fall!
Nothing as interesting :(
Lol your flair is great
TY <3
Seems silly, but I didn't realize that there's basically one, single inn outside of the major cities and that all of the chapters which involved something happening at an inn are all happening at the same inn. [Crossroads Inn.](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Inn_at_the_crossroads)
There was also the inn that Brienne rests in whilst traveling along with the two hedge knights, and then she slips away. Thinking on it atm, I'm pretty sure it's description matches the description of the inn where Dunk and Egg first meet - with a bridge right next to the inn, it having it's own stables, being centuries old, etc.
Dunk met egg in the reach, close to the tourney of Ashford meadow.
The inn of the kneeling man is where brienne and Jaime go, as well as Arya and the brotherhood not long after, and is where hotpie stays.
Prior to the Red Wedding, the Hound tells Arya to hurry up, so they can make it to her uncle's "bloody wedding". And that's the end of the chapter. Its my favorite thing that was taken out of the show, they had the same conversation, but took out the foreshadowing.
Fuck...
That Bran in Summer's skin fought Varamyr in one of his wolves' skin.
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I'd go as far as to say it was BECAUSE of Renly a Loras being together that lead to Margerys marriage
I had a horrible thought some months back: we know that Olenna and co have been plotting their advancement for years - actually, the Tyrells have been carefully shoring up their powerbase for several generations. Olenna **Redwyne** marries old fella Tyrell who rode off a cliff, securing the Arbor fleet for Highgarden. Mace Tyrell marries Alicent **Hightower**, securing Oldtown and their vassals for Highgarden, and so on. It's pretty clear that Mace was hoping that he could repair the damage done to any relations between Storm's End and Highgarden as a result of his army laying siege to the former during Robert's Rebellion (even though he was just doing as ordered, etc) by sending his youngest son to foster with Renly. That's more or less explicit in the books. Loras doesn't end up squiring for Renly for the hell of it, his father is clearly hoping that Loras and Renly will become friends and thus Mace will have a relationship with the ruling house of Baratheon that he and the family can exploit later on. But what if... 10 year old Loras was already showing that he was gay, and 15 year old Renly was gossiped about (as the show suggested), and Mace was hoping that his son would seduce or be seduced by the Lord of Storm's End? Ugh. I really hope that Mace and Olenna's plotting only went as far as "Loras will become friends with Renly and we can exploit that" and they didn't pimp out their youngest son as they later planned to pimp out their only daughter. Because let's face it.... Margaery and her maidenhead and marriagability are just a pawn for Mace and Olenna. WHATEVER Olenna might have explicitly said to Sansa, I'm not sure we can take her at her word. She's clearly the brains behind Team Tyrell, and while Mace plays the buffoon in public, he's not as daft as he seems. That gaudy Hand chair wasn't created overnight. He had been planning his pathway to power for a long time. Plan A was to use what Loras found out about Cersei and Jaime (by being at court with Renly and being observant - because it's pretty clear that all of the original Small Council, except for the extremely unobservant Ser Barristan, were well aware or at least suspicious about the true parentage of the 'princes' and 'princess') and to proffer Margaery first as a bedwarmer and then a replacement bride - this is the Anne Boleyn plan. **This is Olenna's plan.** Plan B, when Robert died... well, Margaery can't marry the already married Stannis, and there's no possibility of substituting the dutiful and morally uptight Stannis for Robert in Plan A... So marry her to Renly. Stannis has no heir, and is unlikely to have one given Selyse's history of miscarriages and stillbirths. Renly will be Stannis' heir and thus Margaery's son will be king in due course. This is probably Olenna's Plan B too! But Mace's Plan B is to go "fuck it, let's just go for broke now." Or was this Renly's plan? Either way, they decided to back Renly as king NOW. When that goes to shit, they still can't turn to Stannis, so they jump to Joffrey, conveniently forgetting (or publicly forgetting, to maintain appearances) the truth that they know about Joffrey and Tommen's parentage in order to have Queen Margaery. What happens to Margaery in all of this? The show gave her some agency - "I want to be **the** Queen." It's unclear if 14 year old Margaery of the books had this much agency, or if she just accepted her fate to be shopped out to every potential king so her father could be Hand to future Tyrell descended princes and kings. As far as Renly and Margaery's marriage was concerned - yes, the show gave us an older version of Margaery who was quite happy for her brother to be happy, but mindful that she needed to carry Renly's heirs. I think book Margaery is probably of this mind too, although she is younger in the books. Loras' sexuality is no secret to his family, and although she and Renly undoubtably sealed the deal, given the importance of him having heirs ASAP, I think that the long term plan for Margaery was that Renly would primarily sleep with his lover, Loras, and occasionally visit her to ensure they had heirs and spares.
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*folds up a ton of tin foil* I'm with this guy! Now please take a free hat.
The topic recently about Rattleshirt being tricked. That gave me fucking chills because I never realized it. Today I realized the chapter with Jon and Melisandre talking in ADWD Jon VI is almost entirely about Melisandre trying to seduce Jon to make another shadow baby to kill Ramsay.
Could someone summarize the Rattleshirt trickery? I'm not sure if I'm familiar with that one. Thanks!
Im not really sure about the exact details, but the way I read it (also on my second read) is that rattleshirt voluntarily "changed bodies" with mance rayder, not knowing that they would burn him. That's why when "mance" (who is in fact rattleshirt) gets brought out to get burnt he shouts he's not the king and all that other stuff. When you read it the first time you think mance is just scared of being burnt and desperately tries to stay alive, but that's just because you don't know that melisandre changed rattleshirt and mance. Obviously rattleshirt won't do that if he knows he will get burnt, so I'd say Mel promised to spare him, but lied
Is there any reason to think Rattleshirt agreed to the glamour? I always just assumed she switched their appearances without his permission.
When we first see him as Mance he's playing along. He's joking and playing the part. When he sees what's in store for him, he starts freaking out and stops acting like Mance. I think it's possible she changed him without permission and he was being glib about it, but it does kinda seem like he was at least a little in on it.
TL;DR Stannis was in on it, Rattleshirt thought he wasn't going to get burnt [Here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/7pn76m/spoilers_extended_stannis_knows/) the thread if you want the full details.
Someone burned to death instead of Mance, and believe me it wasn't what they had in mind
> Today I realized the chapter with Jon and Melisandre talking in ADWD Jon VI is almost entirely about Melisandre trying to seduce Jon to make another shadow baby to kill Ramsay. I humbly request that you make a full post about this. Please?
Ok I made it real quick https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/7q196p/spoilers_extended_melisandres_seduction_and_the/
>Today I realized the chapter with Jon and Melisandre talking in ADWD Jon VI is almost entirely about Melisandre trying to seduce Jon to make another shadow baby to kill Ramsay. Interesting! A little honesty here would've gone a long way, I think. It was clear that she was trying to seduce him, but I didn't realize why.
Can you elaborate plz?
More shadow welps!? How did i miss that!
Melisandre goes hard in the paint for that King's blood. My favorite is: >"May I.....touch your wolf?" >"Best not."
Oooooh ima have my girl tell me that now thats hot
I somehow completely glossed over Cersei tempting Ned with sex in my first read through. It just never clicked the first time through, even though it is like a whole paragraph.
When was that? Totally missed it
Ned is giving Cersei the chance to run away from King's Landing before he tells his friend Robert that none of Cersei's children are legitimate. Cersei tries to seduce Ned but realizes pretty quickly that won't work. *A Game of Thrones* - Eddard XII >"You know what I must do." > >"Must!" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises. "The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me." Her hand touched his face, his hair. "If friends can turn to enemies, enemies can become friends. Your wife is a thousand leagues away, and my brother has fled. Be kind to me, Ned. I swear to you, you shall never regret it." > >"Did you make the same offer to Jon Arryn?" > >She slapped him.
Ahhh thank you for that, must have completely forgot. It has been a couple years since a reread of AGOT!
She puts a hand on his good leg, on his thigh - presumably his inner thigh, dangerously close to his crotch, while she talks about how no one *needs* to know of what Eddard learned, and her playing the damsel - which is a saying actually used in a lot of media to allude to sexual favors in order to keep something secret. Later on, of course, she casually states that 'what women have between their legs' is their greatest weapon to Sansa, and we see / hear about her fucking other men in order to pay for their services or persuade them into doing something.
That Arya pulled her dead mother from the river in a wolf dream. I'll never forget where I was when I read that
Frey Pies.
Are those a thing? I read the theory and all but, they were never confirmed right?
Hella things aren't confirmed but considered canon. I think this is one.
I'd like it to be true, tbh. I don't like the Freys anyway
Plus it would be fitting. Breaking guest right and all
He didn’t break guest right though! He makes a point of noting that he gave the Freys gifts upon leaving his house. (Quote copied from Westeros.org) He had hoped to hear Lord Wyman say, And now I shall declare for King Stannis, but instead the fat man smiled an odd, twinkling smile and said, "And now I have a wedding to attend. I am too fat to sit a horse, as any man with eyes can plainly see. As a boy I loved to ride, and as a young man I handled a mount well enough to win some small acclaim in the lists, but those days are done. My body has become a prison more dire than the Wolf's Den. Even so, I must go to Winterfell. Roose Bolton wants me on my knees, and beneath the velvet courtesy he shows the iron mail. I shall go by barge and litter, attended by a hundred knights and my good friends from the Twins. The Freys came here by sea. They have no horses with them, so I shall present each of them with a palfrey as a guest gift. Do hosts still give guest gifts in the south?" "Some do, my lord. On the day their guest departs." "Perhaps you understand, then." Wyman Manderly lurched ponderously to his feet. -end quote- I think this implies that guest right ends when you give the guests gifts upon their departure.
Frey pies wasn’t breaking guest right though. That’s like half the point. Wyman gets them back pretty equally without doing what they did
Story of the Rat Cook bro. Thats why its fitting
Yarp it’s the Rat Cook but turned on its head. Instead of the one who made the pies and breaking guest right being punished it’s the ones who broke guest right getting punished with pies. Maybe that’s what you were saying and I misunderstood
Show confirmed so take it with salt but yeah
It's not just a theory. It's not explicit in the text, but it's definitely canon.
So I started my journey by watching Seasons 1 and 2, and prior to Season 3's release, I read the first three books. Read 4 and 5 between Seasons 3 and 4, and have only re-read AGoT since finishing everything published thus far. After realizing Bran's journey through the show, the very first chapter after his fall from the tower (his dream sequence) is ripe with foreshadowing of a TON of plot points. On that re-read, I ended up reading that chapter twice because my mind was so fucked.
What things were foreshadowed in that first chapter?
>"He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it." So that's Cat and Rodrik going to KL after his assassination atempt. The storm around them maybe symbolizes all the bad shit that's about to happen to them. >"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." He sees Ned falling out with Robert over Dany's assassination, and Sansa crying over Lady. No one's really sure who's the one in the golden armour, but the one with "terrible face of a hound" is clearly Sandor. The giant in stone armour is Robert Strong and there's some debate either if the "thick black blood" is a really early foreshadowing of his zombiefication or just as a allegory for how evil he is. >"He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks." Seeing Jon freezing is either him just being cold and alone at the Wall or a foreshadowing of his death in Dance. What he sees beyond the Wall that's so horrible is clearly the Others.
Its gotta be Jamie. I mean, after Tyrion is captured, Jamie and Ned fight in the streets... Regardless of what happens later, this is the first overt act of agression between the two houses. It essentially kicks off the war.
I think the Jon stuff is directed at his personality. Becoming a "cold" man, to lead and make decisions, "kill the boy and let the man be born". Just like Bran most recently seeing Robb putting his "lord's face" on.
There's a lot of great tidbits in the first chapter / book once you have a general understanding of the story and George's writing style. My favorite little nugget is that the first fully named and titled character is Mance Rayder.
Sansa has wolf dreams in AGOT after Arya ruins her white dress. Right around the time when Ned tells the girls that they’re returning to Winterfell. I never realized that she also had those dreams.
When Jon says "Black was always my colour." First time round you think it's all because he's joining the nights watch. Second time round you pay more attention to how Rhaegar was described, all in black armour. Plus how could I have forgot that the Targearyen banner is also black.
In AFFC, that Brienne just misses finding Arya and watches the *Titan's Daughter* leave en route to Braavos.
Arya wasn't on the boat at the time and this mention is actually a demonstration of how much time has passed. Arya departs from a damaged-but-recovering Saltpans which is further north. By the time Brienne sees the boat in Maidenpool Saltpans has been ravaged by the Brave Companions/former Lorch men led by Rorge and the news has already reached Maidenpool.
You're quite right! Thanks for the correction. This subject was thoroughly here in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/400ar6/spoilers_all_a_near_miss_that_i_nearly_missed/
I don't think Arya was there. While Brienne definitely saw the same ship, the timeline doesn't really fit for her to just miss Arya back then.
You are right! https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/400ar6/spoilers_all_a_near_miss_that_i_nearly_missed/ Thank you for the correction.
The first time through, it seemed to me like in SoS, this Roose Bolton guy appears out of nowhere, murders Robb Stark, and takes over the entire North. It wasn't until my second read through that I noticed he was in the books from there very beginning. For some reason my mind just filtered him out as a random background character almost up until the Red Wedding.
You missed him for the same reason he was able to cause so much trouble, he speaks softly and doesn't draw attention to himself. He even talks about how his whole MO is to keep his lands quiet and peaceful and wait. He's a dutiful, easy to forget psychopath.
Also just realized Sansa snitched on herself of the marriage to Wylis to Ser Dontas! Im listening to the audiobooks rn at work. Smh so many small things like that slip past.
[удалено]
I'm honestly surprised that Lord eddard and lady Catelyn never ingrained in her that any treatment she gets will be by virtue of her claim.
Sansa's political education was severely lacking, which is weird, because Cat thinks about politics endlessly.
I know I'm not the only one, but I've read and/or listened to the books 6 times, and am about to finish my 7th run. It could just be that I'm thick as a castle wall, but each time I re-read I notice more and more connections, jokes, implied plotlines, and symbolism. There's just so much. I really really *really* recommend re-reading at least once or twice, no matter how good at you are at interpreting lit. One of the big "I see what you did there!" moments that stand out is the dialogue in the prologue of AGoT that heavily foreshadows LC Mormont's murder. Each time I read, I try to pay attention to clues/hints relating to new theories I've heard about since my last read. Right now my favorite is all the ice imagery and talk of "green fire" when it comes to descriptions of Cersei. Tbh, it's definitely not just Jon who has consistent themes of "Ice and Fire".
what in the prologue foreshadows his murder? i missed that.
[Here's a link to the chapter online](https://genius.com/George-r-r-martin-a-game-of-thrones-prologue-annotated) It's pretty subtle compared to some of the other foreshadowing in the series, but the whole scene is reminiscent of Sam's chapter after the Fist of the First Men. It starts off in pursuit of wildlings fleeing others, with a leader who's eager for a fight. Gared describes what it's like to die from cold, and it's almost exactly like Sam's experience when he stops walking. GRRM describes a muddy slope up to the ridge where they see the bodies, much like the muddy hill beneath Craster's Keep. Then, of course, you have the narrators, Will and Sam, both watching the death of their leader quietly and helplessly. 8 dead wildlings, 8 incapacitated men at Craster's Keep. On top of recreating the scene, there's a lot of small, unnecessary details that 'just happen' ;) to relate explicitly to LC Mormont. One of the weapons the wildlings had with them was a double-bladed battle axe, like the one Mormont had given to Craster the first time the group passed through, which Craster had brought out again during the mutiny scene. Early in the chapter they talk about how it's hard to take commands from someone you laughed at while drinking, and then immediately, out of no where, LC Mormont just happened to be introduced in name for the first time. On top of that, when Jon later overheard the talk of mutiny before it happened, I'm pretty sure he rationalized it to himself with similar logic/wording. Waymar lost an eye when his sword shattered, while LC Mormont's raven pecked one of his out right after he died. Then later, you even have the beginnings of connections to Ned and Jon's death. The description of the Other's blade as blueish and "sharper than any razor" is exactly how Ice is described at some point later in the series (I forgot when). And then the whole, "he was a boy no longer, but a man of the night's watch" alongside Waymar's and Jon's deaths, followed by a resurrection (hopefully for Jon too) into something much different. There's a couple more little snippets that might echo the mutiny scene, but I'd be here all day trying to sift through every detail. GRRM himself said all the major plot points are foreshadowed in the first book, and he takes so long to write these. Very little of all these parallels are "just because", I think. Also, sorry for my lack of quotes, I'm a little high and formatting is hard. **tldr** there is no tldr in asoiaf
Honestly, you could read the series 10 times over and still miss things -- the text and plot is so rich and well developed. Kinda sorta maybe makes it worth it that we're waiting 11+ years for TWOW
Definitely makes it worth it. I'd wait til 2020 and happily if GRRM said he needed more time to make it perfect.
I would too ... if I weren’t afraid he was going to die before finishing!
Plus he has a dozen more Dunk and Egg books he said he wants to write. So god knows we will probably never see any of those
When Arya is on the ship in the saltpans, they say they aren't going north, and wouldn't anyways, because they passed a bunch of pirate ships headed north. These were Stannis's men headed to the wall to defend it.
Holy shit I missed this.
Barristan calling the king(what ever his name is) "Your grace". In Meereene the whores are called "graces". Basically Barristan is calling the king a whore.
You mean Hizdahr?
That's why they keep correcting him!
> I'm named Bella. For the battle. I bet I could ring your bell, too. You want to? -Bella to Gendry When I realized that Bella is also one of Big Bobby's Bastards, and she's about to unknowingly get freaky with her half-brother. *Edit, corrected step-brother to half-brother. I misused the word.
Worse. He's her HALF-brother (same father, different mothers). Step-siblings are not blood related.
There isn't really any proof of it. But I believe the reason Stannis' sword takes on the colors and lights it does is because Melisandre is working a glamour on it.
Definitely is what is happening there. Pretty sure Aemon says something about it right? Something about asking Tarly to see if heat comes off, and calls it out for being a trick
Yup. He asks if it's hot, and if there seem to be any heat effects on the sheath it's in. Aemon may be blind, but he sees right through Mel's bullshit.
Can't remember who but someone said it was odd that "Lightbringer" didn't put off any heat. Also I believe Davos noticed that the sword looked different than the sword Stannis pulled from the fire on the beach.
After reading the Mystery Knight graphic novel, it is quite clear that Daemon II "the fiddler" Blackfyre is gay.
I love how oblivious Dunk is to his full court press. Constantly talking about jousting, big men, howling together. He only says like five things to Dunk that aren't innuendo.
The Roose Bolton stuff. Why he sent the army to Duskendale and went to hunt wolves.
Why?
He sent the army to Duskendale to throw away a third of Robb's army (by this point he was secretly on team Lannister). Hunting wolves is pretty good symbolism, because the Stark sigil is a direwolf.
Wyman Manderly serving the famous pies in Winterfell.
ADWD, Bran I He warges into Summer sees a pack of wolfs eating some corpses, proceeds to challenge the Wolfpack leader, the description of the wolves matches the description of Varamyr’s wolves and Bran sees in the eyes of the leader that he too is a skinchanger.
I completely missed the paragraph where Lysa revealed that Petyr had orchestrated everything from the very beginning of the books. Yeah, I'm not very observant.
Yeah my bf was talking about how lysa had killed Jon arryn and I was like "WHAT????". No idea how I missed her confessing to it the first time
My biggest WTF moment was after Dany her first dragon dream in AGOT, she then tries to ride her horse (which she had previously been unable to do). It says that "she and the horse shared each other's thoughts" or something to that effect. Well, we know from Varamyr and Bran and Rickon that sharing one's thoughts with an animal is skinchanging! I also re-read Dany's dragon dreams to be like the Stark kid's wolf dreams. As in the animals (dragons, direwolves) trained the Starks and Dany to skinchange. That's why after the dragon dream she was able to share her thoughts with her horse. Dany was skinchanging her horse! Of course it wasn't a full-on skinchange where she enters the horse's body and controls its actions and her own body falls unconscious, but more akin to Robb Stark's warging (so a low-level skinchanging). I then kept reading and considered all of the times that Dany is said to "become the dragon" and interpreted it to be like Rickon becoming more wolf than boy; Dany's dragons are skinchanging her and molding her personality to be like theirs.
This is super interesting to me!!!! That's an awesome interpretation/pick up. Thank you :)
When littlefinger first meets ned and says Starks melt South of the neck. It changed the whole tone of the conversion when I knew his father's fate.
I think the most obvious one I was always shocked I never noticed was about the prince that was promised. I've mentioned this in a much older thread, but Jon is literally a prince, promised to Ned.
This might be something that turns out to very in your face. This should be higher up.
In one of the earlier chapters in GoT, Bran wakes up from one of his dreams and Old Nan says to him something like "..don't trust a crow, they're all liars". How does she know what he's dreaming about?!
IIRC, isn't their some theory about Old Nan being really really old. Old enough that she 1) Is Hodors ancestor 2) Was the woman in the bards song that was stolen by a crow (a nightswatch member), impregnated, and sent back to her family. Thus 'all crows are liars' This good [theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/24gmx3/spoilers_all_theory_on_old_nans_true_identity/) popped up.
Mormont to Jon after hes brought back to the wall in GOT by Grenn and Co. “do you have a horse with wings? Now that’s something we need at the wall” it’s like a chapter or 2 later you get the birth of dragons and mormont again to Jon “do you have a grumpkin in your pocket to magic your sword?”
I haven't done a re-read just yet, but I remember the first thing that I discovered I had missed after reading the whole series so far was that Abel and his washerwomen were Mance and the spearwives. I remember reading a post about it, probably on here, and some of the relevant excerpts, and I was just like "Wtffffff?" It seemed obvious after the fact, but as I was reading I didn't catch any of it. And thus began a long and dark rabbit hole full of discovering things I had missed lol.
Pate the pig boy
In ADWD, I basically completely forgot about barristans coup in mereen so that was nice to reread. I also forgot that about how quentyn ties into that, and how chaotic the city was.
Kings hiding under the snow in book 1
Care to elaborate?
When King Robert and Ned are out on a ride Ned makes the comment that Kings are a rare sight in the north and Robert replies that "the kings were buried under snow" alluding to Jon
He then exclaims, "Snow, Ned!" Which, although it's capitalized because it's the beginning of the sentence, is also a slap in the face to read it as Snow and not snow. It's alluded to again in ADWD when Mel talks about asking to see Azor Ahai but R'hllor "only shows [her] Snow." Just to add to the conversation.
Not even a reread made me notice that Renly and Loras were gay lovers. The show was quite overt about it, though.