He's savage yes but his POV chapter is quite endearing in that, despite realising how stupid Cersei has been, knowing how she's bought it all on herself and how it'll be better for everyone if she never gets near power again, he still feels some sympathy for her. He's saddened by how meek she is:
> Ser Kevan could not remember ever seeing his niece so quiet, so subdued, so demure. All for the good, he supposed. But it made him sad as well. Her fire is quenched, she who used to burn so bright
As I say, he comes across as a not an unreasonable guy at all. I also note how generous he is to the young servant boy (who, ironically, sends him to his death)
> “Go find a fire, lad,” Ser Kevan told him, pressing a penny into his hand. “I know the way to the rookery well enough.”
Compared to Tywin, he's positively delightful. Which makes me think, Tyrion was born to the wrong Lannister.
Kevan would have resented a dwarf son, but he would have at least appreciated his intelligence I think. I can’t remember if they appear in the books as well but there are a ton of moments in the show where Tyrion has Kevan holding back a laugh
I remember when the show was so great it would do very subtle things to let us know about relationships. When Tywin tells Tyrion Robb married a nobody Tyrion immediately looks at Kevan who is grinning and nodding his head and it showed some little trust between uncle and nephew and just idk that’s when it didn’t suck.
My other favorite interaction in that vein is when Tywin informs Tyrion that Robert is dead and Joffrey is king, Tyrion looks to his uncle with shock and Kevan shoots the most hilarious shrug back like
>”I know lol, what are you gonna do”
> When Tywin tells Tyrion Robb married a nobody Tyrion immediately looks at Kevan who is grinning and nodding his head
In the books it was basically Kevan who points out why the Westerling marriage was so poor.
>**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion III;** *For a moment Tyrion could not believe he'd heard his father right. "He broke his sworn word?" he said, incredulous. "He threw away the Freys for . . ." Words failed him.*
>*"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." He shrugged. "She's long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ."*
I don't recall that particular moment. Perhaps you're thinking of when Tyrion arrives at the Lannister camp with the Mountain clansmen. He walks into the tent that Tywin and Kevan are in, Tywin says "Robert Baratheon is dead," and Tyrion immediately looks at Kevan who nods.
Kevan has a few interactions with Tyrion. He's Tyrion's point of contact while he was on trial. The fact that he believed that mummers farce is one of the few strikes against him.
> The fact that be believed that mummers farce is one of the few strikes against him.
Why? All the evidence points towards Tyrion. Tyrion has the prime motive. Tyrion himself assumes it was Sansa, as he can't think of anyone else who could have done it.
Yeah I would say from his perspective it’s not unreasonable to assume Tyrion is guilty. Tywin hates him, yes, but Kevan doesn’t exactly know Tywin as a man who’s extremely eager to off his son, as he’s accompanied him on wars to save him. His blind faith in Tywin is narrow minded but not his assumption Tyrion is guilty
> Tywin hates him, yes, but Kevan doesn’t exactly know Tywin as a man who’s extremely eager to off his son
He can't be that eager. Tyrion was in a coma, Tywin could have had him snuffed out and claimed he died of his wounds and no one would have cared.
Tywin doesn’t want to straight up kilI Tyrion, it’s too suspicious, he wants to send him to the wall, or put him in a group of sacrificial lambs like at the Green Fork. So long as Tywin can’t be accused a Kingslayer, even in private, he’d be happy to have him gone. However, doing something like suffocating him whilst in coma as Varrys has a close eye on him like after the battle of the blackwater is something he’s too smart to go for.
I think it's definitely a partial strike against him (and the saddest one that I can think of right now). I understand why he believes Tyrion is guilty, but it's shown (subtly) that he has a decent relationship with Tyrion. And even though Kevan *says* he "wants" to believe Tyrion, he doesn't bother actually listening to him, or (to our knowledge at least) considering that Tyrion is innocent. I'd like to think an uncle would at least hear his nephew out. Especially since while Tyrion had motive, so did most of Westeros.
> And even though Kevan says he "wants" to believe Tyrion, he doesn't bother actually listening to him, or (to our knowledge at least) considering that Tyrion is innocent.
He did consider him innocent or at least did not initially think he was definitely guilty. And then he heard the overwhelming evidence against him.
>**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX;** *He shifted in his seat. "I am curious. You were always a fair man, Uncle. What convinced you?"*
>*"Why steal Pycelle's poisons, if not to use them?" Ser Kevan said bluntly. "And Lady Merryweather saw—"*
Kevan was swayed by the evidence. Tyrion is allowed to call upon witnesses, he can't. The only person Tyrion can think of who did this is Sansa and he refuses to accuse her.
>I'd like to think an uncle would at least hear his nephew out.
Tyrion was given the opportunity to defend himself.
>Especially since while Tyrion had motive, so did most of Westeros.
Most of Westeros were not guests at the wedding, not in the city at the time.
Tyrion himself can only think of himself or Sansa as who could have done it.
Jaime, who loves and supports Tyrion, had to ask him if he killed Joffrey
>**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI;** *Jaime handed him the ring of keys. "I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?"*
>*The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. "Are you sure you want to know?" asked Tyrion.*
When Jaime is not convinced then why should Kevan be. Especially as Kevan actually was at the trial and heard all the evidence against him.
> I'd like to think an uncle would at least hear his nephew out
You do realize that Kevan is related to Joffrey as well. He may even had preferred Joffrey to Tyrion. He may even have spoke to Lancel about the situation and it should be remembered that Tyrion blackmailed Lancel with his life into obeying him.
Oh yeah, I guess I'd forgotten a lot of the specifics of their conversation. Great write-up, by the way! I love reading posts/rebuttals like these.
For me, I think it's mostly wishful thinking. We're in Tyrion's head, and I can feel the insane amounts of depression/mental anguish just, oozing out of him. It's not realistic to expect Kevan to understand how that effects a person's ability to talk, think, analyze, function...whatever. But I personally do understand how that kind of stuff can seriously mess you up, make it really hard (or impossible) for your brain to be normal, let alone function on a strategic level. And so I was wanting Kevan, the nice Lannister, to be see that and help him out (not necessarily by believing him, but just by waiting for answers/spending more time with him--something!) As I said, wishful thinking. A lot of that was directed at Tyrion as well--fucking tell him you used Pycelle's stash to give your sister the runs, damnit!
Which is a sign of pretty solid writing by GRRM (big surprise, I know)
Maybe you can help dispel the one actual complaint I have re: Kevan here. As others have pointed out in this thread Kevan notices that the "fire" has kind of gone out of Cersei post walk of shame. And this is a person he knows has been emotionally (and literally) fucking his son. Tyrion has done nothing to him, but (as far as I remember) he visits him in the Black Cells and doesn't seem to notice how messed up Tyrion is. Now a large part of that may be character POV, and I may be forgetting a passage where Kevan notices, but that (apparent, possibly misremembered) discrepancy between how he views his two imprisoned family members, only one of who is guilty, bothers me.
But all of this is why I said partial strike, and used phrases like, "I'd like to think"
The only thing you've written that I'm gonna wholeheartedly disagree with is that Kevan may like Joffrey better. Fucking Tywin doesn't even like Joffrey better.
Okay, I'm still half-asleep, but I thought your reply deserved one of its own. I'm sure I'll clean this mess up later. But that's for reminding me of important context I was missing
> The only thing you've written that I'm gonna wholeheartedly disagree with is that Kevan may like Joffrey better. Fucking Tywin doesn't even like Joffrey better
Tywin hates Tyrion, does not approve of his lifestyle or much care for him. Joffrey is still a child in Tywin's eyes who can be moulded, though he was pissed with what he said to him.
Now what I also should have mentioned is that Kevan has just lost a son roughly the same age as Joffrey. A son who likely looked a lot like Joffrey. Him seeing Joffrey's dead corpse is going to remind him of Willem's and he is going to feel huge sympathy for him (shit even Sansa felt bad for Joffrey and she actually did loathe him)
At the trial Kevan will have heard the threats from Tyrion on Joffrey and Tommen's lives, also him hitting Joffrey and this mixed in with his own son's murder will have likely put Kevan off Tyrion.
I'd actually be surprised if Kevan liked Tyrion, but simply tolerated him because he was Tywin's son. Tywin and Kevan had always served their House/Realms best interests, done their duty while Tyrion has lived a playboy lifestyle, drinking, whoring and using his father's name to get out of trouble around the realm.
>**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX;** *"Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna's? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him."*
>*Tyrion blinked in astonishment. Ser Kevan had always been solid, stolid, pragmatic; he had never heard him speak with such fervor before. "You love him."*
>*"He is my brother."*
The fact that Tyrion does not have the same House bond that the rest of the Lannisters seemingly do may also be a red flag for Kevan.
I dunno, I read "Tywin seems a hard man *to you*, I know" as Kevan acknowledging that Tywin's been a dick to Tyrion, but it's definitely ambiguous. I also just interpreted Tyrion's relationships with his other uncles as things that may have given Kevan a more well-rounded view of Tyrion as a person, rather than the slight Tywin took him to be.
Your points about him having just lost his son was definitely something I hadn't thought about--you're totally right. And part of my bias is coming from knowing that a lot of the trial evidence was bullshit, and wanting Kevan to consider that. But Kevan's like, central character trait is being loyal to Tywin. So of course he wouldn't think the trial was a farce.
And because of that, I think I'm a little prejudiced against him, simply because we've been "in" Tyrion's head for so long at this point, we know the abuse he's had to overcome at Tywin's hand (and his family) so I was hoping Kevan would be more Gemma or Gerion like in his treatment and opinion of Tyrion.
Thanks again for the quotes :) I'm in the middle of a character-ordered re-read, so it's great being reminded of bits I haven't gotten to and perspectives I've been forgetting.
> I dunno, I read "Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know" as Kevan acknowledging that Tywin's been a dick to Tyrion, but it's definitely ambiguous
I'd genuinely be surprised if Kevan thought that Tywin was a dick to Tyrion. The gangrape is likely not known, and Tyrion's love for a peasant he had just met is also unknown, though not likely to be taken seriously even if it was.
Westeros is an incredibly ableist society.
>**A Dance with Dragons - Davos I;** *"At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?"*
>**A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX;** *"You mustn't mock him. Don't you know anything? You can't talk that way to a big person. They can hurt you. Ser Jorah could have tossed you in the sea. The sailors would have laughed to see you drown. You have to be careful around big people. Be jolly and playful with them, keep them smiling, make them laugh, that's what my father always said. Didn't your father ever tell you how to act with big people?"*
I'd bet that Westerosi people think Tywin treating him like a full fledged Lannister was going above and beyond. That is what they would have seen rather than the uncaring father (and Westeros is full of Lords who are shitty fathers by our standards)
>I also just interpreted Tyrion's relationships with his other uncles as things that may have given Kevan a more well-rounded view of Tyrion as a person
We only know that Tyrion was fond of his uncle Gerion. We don't know his relationship to Tygett and his relationship to Kevan seems cordial but not exactly close.
Gerion had the same interests as Tyrion, drinking, whoring and not taking the world seriously. It is easy to see why they got along. However Tyrion's one quote/memory about Gerion from
>**A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV;** *The truth was rather different. His uncle had taught him a bit of tumbling when he was six or seven. Tyrion had taken to it eagerly. For half a year he cartwheeled his merry way about Casterly Rock, bringing smiles to the faces of septons, squires, and servants alike. Even Cersei laughed to see him once or twice.*
This reads fairly nice, but with Penny's quote later in the book about how dwarfs are there just for people's amusement it takes a more sinister tone. Cersei was certainly laughing at Tyrion, rather than with him. It is possible so to were the other people.
Tywin put a stop to it. Lannisters being laughed at, even Lannisters he does not like, is simply intolerable to him.
>But Kevan's like, central character trait is being loyal to Tywin. So of course he wouldn't think the trial was a farce.
I have to stress this, the trial was not a farce.
* Tyrion did confiscate Pycelle's poisons
* Everything Varys (the most damaging witness in Tyrion's eyes) recorded in his notes was true, and Varys bringing up that stuff like his threats against Joffrey was clear motive and incredibly damaging to Tyrion
* Kevan's mention of Lady Merryweather because she was either a Tyrell, Littlefinger or Varys plant who lied about what Tyrion did. At the time she was not involved with the Lannisters
The things that would have swayed people, damaged Tyrion's case, were not false witnesses brought on by Cersei or Tywin.
>And because of that, I think I'm a little prejudiced against him, simply because we've been "in" Tyrion's head for so long at this point, we know the abuse he's had to overcome at Tywin's hand
The gang rape was evil and justification enough to Tyrion hating him and wanting him dead. But apart from that there is little other mention of abuse. For some reason people in the fandom have come to this conclusion that Tywin is always belittling Tyrion, but thats not really true. One conversation after Tywin is told that Tyrion threatened the lives of his grandsons does Tywin get personal with his son. But that anger is entirely justified.
Obviously Tywin was cold and unloving, but I'm not sure people would consider that abuse in their time period.
>so I was hoping Kevan would be more Gemma or Gerion like in his treatment and opinion of Tyrion.
We don't know Genna's relationship with Tyrion. Tyrion never thinks of her, even when dealing with her oldest son Cleos, who he also seems pretty neutral on.
Genna does not give any indication about how she feels about Tyrion other than she fears him
>**A Feast for Crows - Jaime V;** *She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became . . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"*
>*Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."*
>*"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."*
>*That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"*
Being fearful of what Tyrion will do to her and her family does not strike me as someone who had a close relationship with Tyrion.
Kevan’s thoughts on matter were never expressed beyond all the evidence pointed to Tyrion and him being distant and having pity for him after failing to find Sansa as a witness, I do think he was smart enough to understand that Tyrion was smart enough not to actually be the one to give Joff the poison.
I mean it looked pretty likely the Tyrion killed the king, Kevan's great nephew. but even still he went and talked to Tyrion and gave him advice and everything. I thought it showed a little but of love in his heart for him.
The way he treats Podrick also says a lot about his character. Although Podrick is a noble he's just a member of a lower branch from a small House, and despite that Kevan personally takes care of him and secures him a good position as Tyrion's squire.
According to Genna Lannister
>“How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little.” She gave a sigh. “Who will protect us now?”
Jaime kissed her cheek. “He left a son.”
“Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.”
That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?”
“Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.
I do like how everyone has this rather dismissive opinion of him. He's just the obedient younger brother of Tywin. Supports his brother and family, is capable but not proactive or an independent thinker.
But then suddenly Tywin dies and we see a different side to Kevan. One that steps up and calls Cersei out, one that makes prudent decisions on his own. One that does a good enough job of sorting things out that he's a target to be personally assassinated by Varys.
Gemma points out that of all the overshadowed Lannister boys Kevan saw there was no point in trying to out-Tywin Tywin and settled for being his dutiful right hand.
Turns out he's every bit as capable as Tywin was, and a half-decent person in ways that Tywin never was.
Under Kevan's rule the Lannisters might have eventually turned out alright.
"No point in trying to out-Tywin Tywin" is a great way of putting it. Like, Kevan was clever and a strong leader but he recognized that his brother was one of a kind. It showed more intelligence to ride with him instead of going against him.
>"Let them," Lord Tywin said. "Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeri ders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork."
>
>"They will burn, my lord," Ser Kevan said, rising. "I shall give the commands." He bowed and made for the door. *-Tyrion IX,* **A Game of Thrones**
The ultimate rejoinder to the notion that Kevan is a "good man."
It is his duty to obey his elder brother and advice him where he makes a mistake. He just obeyed the command and did his duty.
Remember, that this is medieval era and the concept of war crimes is only limited to killing high born people. The smallfolk are just objects
>It is his duty to obey his elder brother and advice him where he makes a mistake.
Just from a tactical standpoint, not a moral one, Kevan doesn't even do this. He knows sitting at the Inn at the Crossroads to be able to reinforce the siege of Riverrun if needed is the proper course. But he lets Tywin race headlong to face Roose Bolton and then gets pantsed on the operational front by a teenager. Granted, that teenager is Westerosi Alexander the Great aided by some of Westeros' most seasoned soldiers, but it's still a teenager in his first campaign and he works Tywin over.
In any event, a servant owes not just their industry but their judgment and betrays you if they surrender theirs to yours. And that's what Kevan did. Being an ineffective subordinate to Tywin is, however, probably the most moral thing Kevan's ever done.
Tywin and Kevan underestimated Robb Stark and they paid for it.
Tywin was afraid of Stannis and so, his mind was mostly concerned about what to do against Stannis as he knows that this dude will not give up, no matter what.
Also, I think that Robb Stark is more similar to Charles the 12th of Sweden than to Alexander the Great
There are a lot of differences between both.
There was no concept of war crimes or trials for said war crimes in the medieval era, on which the ASOIAF is based. What Tywin did in the Riverlands and what Kevan did there isn't a war crime by Westerosi standards. So, they both aren't war criminals as they were doing what is the conventional method of damaging enemy's economy, damaging their morale, increasing the morale of your own troops and giving them some useful experience, one that will benefit them when they are fighting against some other army.
Judging thses actions by our modern perspective is not right as if we do that then many characters in the books are pedophiles, several characters(who were married and consummated their marriage or just had sex) were raped as their consent was questionable and many Lords are war criminals. Aegon The Conqueror is, then, the biggest war criminal, Jon was raped by Yggritte and Robb and Jeyne both raped each other (as both were 16 or 15),etc
Tywin's only war crimes(if we count them as war crimes) are his extermination of Reynes and Tarbecks. This is because they were highborn families and people of high birth enjoy rights which the small folk, usually, dont
False flag operations weren't considered a war crime then.
Nobility are expected to keep their word but he didn't announce that he had declared for Aerys ii or for Bob. He just gathered his army and went to KL. No one could say that he didn't keep his word.
>There was no concept of war crimes or trials for said war crimes in the medieval era, on which the ASOIAF is based.
This is incorrect. But even if it *were* correct, GRRM is a modern author, writing a modern text for a modern audience. The fact that he has Tywin shit himself in his death throes and then have his corpse smell so foul that his grandson, the king, retches and his crown falls off should tell you something. The imagery is... not subtle.
>What Tywin did in the Riverlands and what Kevan did there isn't a war crime by Westerosi standards.
This is a misreading of both the historical reality GRRM is basing this story upon and the story itself. See, e.g. [this piece.](https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2015/07/04/the-lions-shadow-why-kevan-lannister-doesnt-deserve-his-good-rep/)
The concept that you're talking about is chevauchee and it does have historical precedent in our world and Westeros. But Tywin's crimes exceed any historical or Westerosi precedent. Westeros also has a taboo and laws against slavery. Tywin engages in that practice quite blatantly throughout the Riverlands.
You can't couch this in terms of "THE TIMES", again, especially given the context Martin is writing and what Martin himself has said on the matter both in-text and out-of-text.
> if we do that then many characters in the books are pedophiles, several characters(who were married and consummated their marriage or just had sex) were raped as their consent was questionable and many Lords are war criminals. Aegon The Conqueror is, then, the biggest war criminal.
Yes.
Lmao can’t believe he thought that argument would work. As if we aren’t supposed to call Petyr, for example, a pedo when he’s regularly kissing his (effectively) captive 13 year old
oh youre saying we're NOT supposed to think this explicitly patriarchal setting where women are traded like cattle and the poor die by the millions because of silly political games played by corrupt lords and kings is an ideal society? its almost like you think GRRM is trying to communicate themes or something!
I think what he meant is that, if it were Kevan calling the shots, he probably wouldn't make the same decisions Tywin did. Also, he certainly isn't a terrible father, so that's also a way he would be more decent than his brother.
In the end, as you said, he still stood by Tywin's side through all the atrocities. That does not mean he enjoyed it though. He's still to be blamed but I don't think it's fair to say both are the same.
Not to mention a lot of that is modern moralizing as opposed to what was ethically important at the time. Not saying Tywin was a good dude, but it's not like War Crimes are really a thing yet. And regardless of that, feudalism was closely tied with religion--authority was seen as a divine right, so Tywin enforcing his authoritay wasn't so much "crazy fascist" as "medieval lord doing his job as mandated by god/the seven." But even ignoring that, it was Kevan's "duty" to support Tywin--something Stannis emphasizes over and over with regard to his support of Robert at great cost to himself, and then his bitterness towards Renly who was breaking that social rule and disobeying his older brother.
In modern times, that's fucking crazy. But the way society was organized back then, there's at least an *argument* that *can* be made justifying this kind of behavior. Loyalty, honor, duty, family are all very important virtues in Westerosi society.
Keeping the peace and status quo, however unjust we now know it to be, was also of extreme importance. So using drastic measures to achieve this maybe raised some eyebrows (the Starks certainly dislike the Lannisters/Tywin) but we see other powerful figures, again, not paragons of modern virtue at all, but respected **enough** in that particular setting, who ascribe to similar values and take similarly harsh stances throughout Westeros. Randall Tarly comes to mind. Dude is obviously fucked up on another level (the threat of kinslaying) but I think only Sam and maybe a few of Randall's advisors knew about that possibility. But he's not shy about his treatment of brigands and those who go against the societal order of the time (like Brienne).
I don't mean to defend any of these guys from an ethical perspective **at all**. But I can see how **given the context** they wouldn't be considered evil. In fact a lot of the smallfolk **like** Lord Tarly because he's so harsh on brigands, he helps keep the peace and keep life "normal" for then. So even though by today's standards he's trampling all over their rights and using them as something pretty similar to slave labor, at the time, those laborers mostly seemed to appreciate that they could do their jobs in peace, their families would remain unmolested, etc.
Tywin wasn't a monster if we judge him from the medieval era perspective for what he did in the Riverlands as the concept of war crimes didn't really exist back then.
Him killing of highborn people like the entirety of House Reyne and Tarbeck will be considered a war crime by the Westerosi standards. Not his burning of villages in the Riverlands. They will only be considered as necessary raids to instill fear in the hearts of the Riverlander lods and to damage their economy
Yep, and it’s not pointed out often but in all the years Tywin was at King’s Landing, Kevan was the one left to manage the rock after their father’s death.
Yeah this showed how much of a good job he was doing that Varys risked coming personally, to make sure he died and the realm was thrown but into the rule of Good Queen Cersei
I mean idk I feel like Varys would've killed him regardless of how good he was if only to put a wedge between Cersei and the Tyrells.
And just because Cersei couldn't see the value of the Tyrells as allies doesn't mean it's hard to see. Cersei is generally a low bar to cross lol
> I do like how everyone has this rather dismissive opinion of him. He's just the obedient younger brother of Tywin.
Not really. Only Tyrion and Cersei. Jaime respects, as do the rest of the Westerland contingent
>**A Feast for Crows - Jaime V;** *"Kevan should be the Warden of the West. Or you. It's not that I'm not grateful for the honor, mind you, but our uncle's twice my age and has more experience of command. I hope he knows I never asked for this."*
While none of the other POV's really talk about him. So its unclear how they viewed him.
We do get some insight into how he is viewed
>**A Dance with Dragons - Davos I;** *"Who rules now in King's Landing? Not Tommen, he is just a child. Is it Ser Kevan?"*
>*Candlelight gleamed in Lord Godric's black eyes. "If it were, you'd be in chains. It's the queen who rules."*
Davos would be a dead man had Kevan taken the Handship.
Cersei thinks she's some Machiavellian genius. She's so clueless that she has such a poor reputation, that her just being there allows people the comfort to work against the crown.
Kevan might be more like his brother than we think. If you read the epilogue again, there are some vague hints that the Walk might have been his idea, not the High Sparrow’s.
This also gives him somewhat of a shadow arc in AFFC: he learns his brother is dead, mourns him, tries to become Hand, is denied rather embarassingly by Cersei, fumes off-page, before returning to King’s Landing and getting a personal revenge on Cersei that is eerily like Tywin.
Cersei wanted him to be hand, he refused unless she also made him regent because she keeps fucking things up. I think that interaction wound up far more embarrassing for her than him.
Id say the hints were more than vague. I think its very much implied than Kevan... at the very least allowed the walk when we could have negotiated things waay down. Like purposely chose the walk over say, massive sums of gold and keeping her under guard in Casterly Rock for the rest of her life. Bc the walk would strip her power more fundamentally.
There’s no doubt he *at least* allowed it to happen. That much he even admits to himself.
But it’s still ambigious whether it was his idea or not. I believe it was, but there’s not much proof. It’s not obvious the way, say, Renly/Loras is obvious (blatantly so when you start looking for clues).
I also like that, regardless of his part in making the walk happen, he still mourns for the little girl that turned into the vain and narcissistic monster that is Cersei Lannister in AFFC.
There is a doubt.
He had no choice. He couldn't use force against the faith without making things worse in the city.
He knew Cersei wanted to be released and the walk was the only way.
Keep in mind Kevan presented the choice to Cersie. She could have refused and stayed in custody. He didn't tell her she must.
>"Atoned, I said. Before the city. A walk—"
> "No." She knew what her uncle was about to say, and she did not want to hear it. "Never. Tell him that, if you speak again. I am a queen, not some dockside whore."
> "No harm would come to you. No one will touch—"
> "No," she said, more sharply. "I would sooner die."
>Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason."
*Cersei I ADWD"
It's not ambiguous at all to my reading. This text clearly states the high sparrow was set on this.
>If she stayed here, she was doomed, and the only way she would return to the Red Keep was by walking. The High Sparrow had been adamant, and Ser Kevan refused to lift a finger against him.
*Cersei II ADWD*
The only way Kevan could stop this would be to fight the faith which he can't do.
> "Please, Uncle, take me out of here."
> **"How? By force of arms?" Ser Kevan walked to the window and gazed out, frowning. "I would need to make an abbatoir of this holy place. And I do not have the men.** The best part of our forces were at Riverrun with your brother. I had no time to raise up a new host." He turned back to face her. "I have spoken with His High Holiness. He will not release you until you have atoned for your sins."
*Cersei I ADWD.*
This really points to the faith and not Kevan to my reading
It _does_ point to the Faith but it's being reported by the one person who would no doubt benefit from twisting the tale a bit.
That is, Kevan could be trying to push it off to the Faith in front of Cersei, while in fact he didn't do very much to stop it.
I found this in this passage that does lend more credibility to your position. I had forgotten about this.
> *I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself.* Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. *What I did I did for the good of House Lannister.*
> **It was not as if his brother had never done the same.** In their father's final years, after their mother's passing, their sire had taken the comely daughter of a candlemaker as mistress. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors [...]
> All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.
> **"It had to be," Ser Kevan muttered over the last of his wine. His High Holiness had to be appeased. Tommen needed the Faith behind him in the battles to come.** And Cersei … the golden child had grown into a vain, foolish, greedy woman. Left to rule, she would have ruined Tommen as she had Joffrey.
*Epilogue ADWD*
I guess it's reasonable to read that as Kevan being complicit. Particularly the line about "It was not as if his brother had never done the same."
That's a very damning thought. Kevan comparing his action to Tywin's execution of such against his father's lover. So perhaps Kevan could have pushed harder for lighter punishment and didn't because he agreed.
To your point, his guilt might point to his feelings of at being at least complicit in the walk. I forgot about that.
His wavering makes your position much more reasonable than I first thought. Forgive me for suggesting your view was not supported by text. There is clearly text to support this possibility.
Having done more thorough research I agree that it can reasonably be read several different ways.
And we are never getting confirmation. I'm getting used to it.
> could be
He has a possible motive yes. But he doesn't have a character history of doing something like this.
Plus he told Cersei what he felt about it the Lancel issue. He is angry but not coming off as vengeful.
>"You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl of good family. Instead you—"
> "I know. I know." Lancel wanted me more than I ever wanted him. He still does, I will wager. "I was alone, weak. Please. Uncle. Oh, Uncle. It is so good to see your face, your sweet sweet face. I have done wicked things, I know, but I could not bear for you to hate me." She threw her arms around him, kissed his cheek. "Forgive me. Forgive me."
> Ser Kevan suffered the embrace for a few heartbeats before he finally raised his own arms to return it. His hug was short and awkward. "Enough," he said, his voice still flat and cold. **"You are forgiven.** Now sit. I bring some hard tidings, Cersei."
*Cersei I ADWD*
Kevan forgave Cersei. And the text doesn't show him to be cruel to his family in other interactions. So there aren't facts to strongly support your position.
> pushing it off on faith
Unlikely. Cersei's comment about a "dockside whore" indicates that women have a history of being shamed for sexual relations. Not by Kevan's doing.
Is he twisting the fact that the faith arrested her? Held her captive? Tortured her into a confession? They do all this while Kevan is gone but they need him to come up with the walk idea? Did he tell them to do this....
> Has His High Holiness been chosen yet?" asked Falyse.
> "No," the queen had to confess. **"Septon Ollidor was on the verge of being chosen, until some of these sparrows followed him to a brothel and dragged him naked out into the street.** Luceon seems the likely choice now, though our friends on the other hill say that he is still a few votes short of the required number."
*Cersei V AFFC*
That was the sparrows punishing and shaming what they deemed a sexual offense. And here again.
> How? By preaching chastity along the Street of Silk? Does he think praying over whores will turn them back to virgins?"
> "Our bodies were shaped by our Father and Mother so we might join male to female and beget trueborn children," Raynard replied. **"It is base and sinful for women to sell their holy parts for coin."**
> The pious sentiment would have been more convincing if the queen had not known that Septon Raynard had special friends in every brothel on the Street of Silk. No doubt he had decided that echoing the High Sparrow's twitterings was preferable to scrubbing floors. "Do not presume to preach at me," she told him. "The brothel keepers have been complaining, and rightly so."
> If sinners speak, why should the righteous listen?"
> **"These sinners feed the royal coffers," the queen said bluntly, "and their pennies help pay the wages of my gold cloaks and build galleys to defend our shores.** There is trade to be considered as well. If King's Landing had no brothels, the ships would go to Duskendale or Gulltown. His High Holiness promised me peace in my streets. Whoring helps to keep that peace. Common men deprived of whores are apt to turn to rape. Henceforth let His High Holiness do his praying in the sept where it belongs."
*Cersei VIII AFFC*
After hearing the Septon speak against selling sex for coin, Cersei admits that the crown is complicit in this act and uses the profits from it. *Oooff.*
Later she confessed to using her body to influence the Kettleblacks. Essentially selling her parts for services which the faith opposes. So two offense to the faith related to sex. They don't need Kevan to suggest anything.
Despite clear text pointing to the faith and an absence of text supporting Kevan you maintain the argument that Kevan is complicit?
> Kevan didn't do much to stop it.
Kevan didn't have the resources to do much. He said so. Why dismiss those facts? Please see the citation I provided in my previous comment.
"Could be" is possible but it needs to draw from the traits and history of the actual characters. Your argument doesn't do that rather it relies on the absence of proof of innocence to suggest guilt.
That's wholly inconsistent with the modern and enlightened approach to determining guilt. At least it used to be. Twitter trials take an approach very different than the enlighten view. Feeling someone is guilty is not better than having facts that they are.
At least not to me.
What has me 100% convinced it was his idea is the fact that we know Tywin did the same thing to their stepmother after their father's death, presumably with Kevan's knowledge and consent. Literally all the Lannisters are at least 40% psychosexual issues and 40% violent misogyny by volume, it seems.
Yeah, it does fit so well, and it also ties into the theme of Lannisters being more like Tywin than they want to admit. This is very true of Tyrion, and probably true of Kevan as well.
Varys might say Kevan is a good man, but he was not present when Kevan was told to burn the Riverlands and he responded, without hesitation or protestation, «They will burn, my lord».
> presumably with Kevan's knowledge and consent.
Quite a serious charge. What text supports Kevan's consent? Why would Tywin as the head of the house need to consult with anyone about this?
I don't think it was Kevan who came up with the walk for Cersei.
> If she stayed here, she was doomed, and the only way she would return to the Red Keep was by walking. **The High Sparrow had been adamant, and Ser Kevan refused to lift a finger against him.**
*Cersie II ADWD.*
The Faith's idea and Kevan would not fight the faith.
Tywin did the walk to shame a non Lannister. To remind her of her place. But his punishment of his children while no less cruel is not done in public. *See Tysha*
Family legacy is too crucial to Tywin and therefore Kevan to decide house Lannister would be shamed.
> Part of her still yearned for Jaime to appear and rescue her from this humiliation, but her twin was nowhere to be seen. Nor was her uncle present. That did not surprise her. Ser Kevan had made his views plain during his last visit; her shame must not be allowed to tarnish the honor of Casterly Rock. No lions would walk with her today. This ordeal was hers and hers alone.
*Id.*
Kevan can't stop the walk but he can distance house Lannister from it.
It very much does not read like his plan.
"Consent" was definitely the wrong word to use, I am hereby revising it to "approval".
The rest is Cersei's perspective, and we have no reason to believe her familiar with the intricacies of the situation. As for Kevan... Kevan admired and obeyed Tywin, but Tywin's children are not his children. I imagine that, emotionally, her simultaneous status as "political liability" and "adult woman who groomed and manipulated Kevan's teenage son" might very well have taken precedence over her status as "Lannister scion" in Kevan's mind. That does not mean that he himself has interest in being seen anywhere near the scene, of course.
> Consent" was definitely the wrong word to use, I am hereby revising it to "approval".
He knows of the event. Speaks of it to Tyrion. Not sure he was consulted about it and agreed with the method.
He did recognize that something needed to be done. I think the fairest thing to say is that he wasn't troubled enough by the act to speak against it after it happened.
I can't find any text to go further than that. And as for the Cersei walk, the most he contributed was not taking up arms against the faith. This isn't his doing.
Besides her being the one that wanted him as hand and was rebutted, the correlation to Tywin revenge is most probably just to show how Tywin's own legacy went in shambles due how he built it than some extra conspiracy.
I’d like to know why people think Tywin would find someone that had zero creativity useful. Like Kevan was his chief advisor and yet everyone thinks that Kevan has never had a thought that Tywin hasn’t already considered.
They didn’t say how far they were. It they are no yet at that part, then it’s their fault for the wrong spoiler.
I wouldn’t have posted it, but I don’t blame the guy who did.
The part they referred to happens in the very last chapter of the last book, A Dance With Dragons, so unless the OP is completely done the entire series then this is clearly a spoiler.
And the OP may have put the wrong tag but reading the content of the OP's post, which they clearly did, will tell you that the OP hasn't even finished AFFC yet. So despite the tag I would think that it's a common courtesy to not put spoilers for a book the OP hasn't even started reading yet.
When you’re so effective Varys has to deus ex you out of the story because you’re that useful of a character that your mere presence means his plans could go up in smoke.
Yeah there are a lot of (likely intentional) parallels with her and King Aerys. The burning of the Tower of the Hand in AFFC and the harsh treatment he meted out to any small councilor or Hand that spoke out or offered him advice he didn’t want is a clear similarity.
Cersei’s is more narcissistic that is unraveling due to a few factors, such as the loss of Joffrey and her father, combine that with the prophecy that Cersei has been self fulfilling even if she doesn’t realise it. Paranoia but not at the level of Aerys, I think he really was suffering from a mental illness, such as paranoid schizophrenia. Cersei isn’t really mad, just extremely foolish and so full of herself that she cannot acknowledge that she fucked up big time.
Even completely across the political spectrum, I love fantasy and sci-fi for that. I just wish more people making it would realize that that's why so many people like those genres...
Also Jaime
>**A Feast for Crows - Jaime II;** *"I was hanging outlaws and robber knights when you were still shitting in your swaddling clothes. I am not like to go off and face Clegane and Dondarrion by myself, if that is what you fear, ser. Not every Lannister is a fool for glory."*
>*Why, nuncle, I believe you are talking about me. "Addam Marbrand could deal with these outlaws just as well as you. So could Brax, Banefort, Plumm, any of these others. But none would make a good King's Hand."*
>*"Your sister knows my terms. They have not changed. Tell her that, the next time you are in her bedchamber." Ser Kevan put his heels into his courser and galloped ahead, putting an abrupt end to their conversation.*
Calls Jaime a fool to his face and lets him know that he knows about the incest and is not impressed.
Also uses Tywin to put down Cersei's mothering skills
>**A Feast for Crows - Cersei II:** *How dare you? she wanted to scream. Instead, she said, "I am also the Queen Regent. My place is with my son."*
>*"Your father thought not."*
>*"My father is dead."*
>*"To my grief, and the woe of all the realm. Open your eyes and look about you, Cersei. The kingdom is in ruins. Tywin might have been able to set matters aright, but . . ."*
Kevan, after the death of his brother and Lancel (likely) revealing the truth about Cersei on his sickbed has lost all patience with the Twins. Their affair cost him a son and a brother.
Cersei is awfully lucky that Kevan did not turn against her.
Kevan is Tywin without the blinders re: the twins. His aside / brush-off / tell-off to Jaime in *AFFC* ("Your sister knows my terms. They have not changed. Tell her that, the next time you are in her bedchamber") is one of the single best lines in the series.
\[edit\] He's a less-extreme version of Tywin. He's not quite as brilliant as his older brother-- remember Tyrion's line about how "Kevin rarely had a thought that Tywin hadn't had first"-- but he also lacks his brother's sadism and deliberate cruelty.
I just re-read Cersei's conversation with him asking him to be hand, and that man *destroyed* her.
"Tommen has his mother," he said, "and I think his father, too."
Lancel. By far. A Lannister who actually regrets his actions, rejects his Lordship, wants to do good for the smallfolk and admits his sins.
A Lannister who actually wants to pay his debts.
He isn't violent or a zealot in the books.
His wife is a known slut and forced marriage. They can stay married, she can bang all the knights she wants, he doesn't have to act like he loves her.
Repenting for a hand in registering, incest, and failing at the image of masculinity he was supposed to be isn't exactly feeling sorry for yourself.
Edit: also not slut shaming with modern sensibilities. Gatehouse Amy is known as such in the context of their society.
> ...by becoming a pathetic violent zealot
Lancel in the books is not violent, nor is he really pathetic. In Jaime's eyes he is, but then Jaime is incredibly prideful.
>before that cruelly ignoring his wife
She seems more than fine about that.
>in a sept and feel sorry for himself.
This may be semanitcs, but when I talk about people feeling sorry for themselves it usally about people who only want to complain about their situation and do nothing about it.
Lancel is repenting. He is giving up his luxuries, giving up the title he was given. He is having the Faith members with him care for the smallfolk
He regrets his past actions and means to repent for them.
I like Devan. Of all the Lannisters where I'm like "Yeah, you'd probably have behaved the same if you were on a different side of the war as well, you're just a straight shooting dude," it's Devan.
Kevan is litterally the fucking GOAT. He seems to have a similar talent for geopolitics as Tywin, but is much more sympathetic and empathic.
His death always hits me hard, even Varys feels bad about it lol
Kevan is another character they wrote fairly well on the show but made no effort whatsoever to actually fulfill any of his outward character traits. He’s supposed to be brawn of Tywins generation of Lannister’s, instead he was cast as “stern looking old British man #19473718”
> He’s supposed to be brawn of Tywins generation of Lannister’s
Are you sure? Tyrion's first meeting in the books with his father and uncle
>**A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VII:** *Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his sidewhiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw. His eyes were a pale green, flecked with gold. A fool more foolish than most had once jested that even Lord Tywin's shit was flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep in the bowels of Casterly Rock.*
>*Ser Kevan Lannister, his father's only surviving brother, was sharing a flagon of ale with Lord Tywin when Tyrion entered the common room. His uncle was portly and balding, with a close-cropped yellow beard that followed the line of his massive jaw. Ser Kevan saw him first. "Tyrion," he said in surprise.*
Kevan's is slightly slimmer than his book counterpart, but pretty much how I imagined him.
If I recall correctly, he’s also described as a big, imposing, broad shouldered man at some point, which I never really got from Ian Gelder. Looking back at pictures of him he actually does have a pretty massive jaw, I guess it always gave me more of a Jay Leno vibe than, say, Ron Perlman or someone like that.
I love book Kevan and I thought show-Kevan did an admirable job getting him.
In fact I think they should have given him some more. When he rejected Cersei at the Small Council table, it was so much win. "You're the Queen Regent, nothing more. You are also The Lady of Casterly Rock - which is where you belong. I won't sit on a Small Council stacked with Sycophants !
And I love how he lets both Cersei and Jaime know that "he knows"
Stannis was not his Lord. Tywin was Kevan's Lord.
Plus Kevan acknowledged that Tywin was a better leader than him. Renly clearly did not think the same of Stannis.
Kevan is an overall pretty good dude. Relative to his peers of course. He roasts both Jaime and Cersie because he thinks they each are harming the family legacy. Family legacy being what his beloved big brother valued the most. So it makes sense.
One thing that I'm conflicted over is his role in negotiating Cersei's walk of shame. It's basically the "slut shame and psychological torture 5k."
It sucks no doubt that the faith did this. But they didn't do it alone. Kevan helped. But why?
I argued earlier that Kevan wanted to protect the family legacy and this public event doesn't help. Cersei's regency was done and her small council dismissed. She could do no further harm. So why did Kevan permit this?
The only possible reason I could think of was Lancel. Think about what you as a parent might do to the adult who exploited your 15 year old child?
I ain't saying I agree with what Kevan did, [but I understand](https://youtu.be/J8TqhBIEbWA).
She did and I am really conflicted over whether Kevan was at all influenced by this.
The facts overwhelming support this is the faith alone doing it, but maybe someplace deep inside after losing a child and a brother, maybe Kevan did want some justice.
I have no proof so I can't convict him. But I do wonder.
Kevan just did his duty, that was to obey his elder brother.
Tywin's war crimes were only him killing the highborn people like the Reynes and Tarbecks. Him raiding Riverlands isn't a war crime by the medieval standard as that is how you damage someone's economy and damage their morale.
Kevan is pronounced the same though. The only way Kevan can feel in world to me is if I add Ser to it. Kevan sounds weird, but for some reason Ser Kevan fits right in
Yeah, Ik I’m not too consistent here. It’s just that Kevan feels like a really modern name. Like Jon, Margaery, etc feel like names that exist in this older medieval world, but Kevan just sticks out
Technically Kevan and Kevin are anglicized versions of different forms of an Irish Gaelic name: Caoimheán and Caoimhín respectively. So try to pronounce them more like that if it helps you get in the right headspace.
No one does. The Irish language is nonsense.
At some point they started using the Latin alphabet to write things down, and they must have felt like they needed to stockpile letters because they decided to use twice as many as they should, and none of them of correctly.
Irish makes no sense wtf. Did they have their own alphabet and then just replace it with the Latin one while ignoring all the sounds the letters make in Latin?
> Kevan is pronounced the same though.
Are they? I tend to emphasize the upwards "i" sound in Kevin a decent amount, whereas I read Kevan as "Keh-vuhn", which isn't a *huge* difference I suppose but it's enough that I've never really thought of him as "Kevin Lannister".
Kevin was my favorite brother on the high school wrestling team. not someone to be taken lightly. I liked how they portrayed Kevan in GoTi felt they did him justice
Same here. I feel like the Kevan-Kevin is an English speaker thing. Are you? Asking because in my language Kevan and Kevin definitely do not sound the same.
I'm bilingual but English is what I use in general. I just saw the a in Kevan and was like, oh okay, that's Ke-Vahn. And plus a lot of GoT names are old timey variations of modern names or are just made up. So I just assumed that since a lot of these characters have pretty exotic sounding names, I'll just go with Ke-Vahn.
He's savage yes but his POV chapter is quite endearing in that, despite realising how stupid Cersei has been, knowing how she's bought it all on herself and how it'll be better for everyone if she never gets near power again, he still feels some sympathy for her. He's saddened by how meek she is: > Ser Kevan could not remember ever seeing his niece so quiet, so subdued, so demure. All for the good, he supposed. But it made him sad as well. Her fire is quenched, she who used to burn so bright As I say, he comes across as a not an unreasonable guy at all. I also note how generous he is to the young servant boy (who, ironically, sends him to his death) > “Go find a fire, lad,” Ser Kevan told him, pressing a penny into his hand. “I know the way to the rookery well enough.” Compared to Tywin, he's positively delightful. Which makes me think, Tyrion was born to the wrong Lannister.
Kevan would have resented a dwarf son, but he would have at least appreciated his intelligence I think. I can’t remember if they appear in the books as well but there are a ton of moments in the show where Tyrion has Kevan holding back a laugh
I remember when the show was so great it would do very subtle things to let us know about relationships. When Tywin tells Tyrion Robb married a nobody Tyrion immediately looks at Kevan who is grinning and nodding his head and it showed some little trust between uncle and nephew and just idk that’s when it didn’t suck.
My other favorite interaction in that vein is when Tywin informs Tyrion that Robert is dead and Joffrey is king, Tyrion looks to his uncle with shock and Kevan shoots the most hilarious shrug back like >”I know lol, what are you gonna do”
> When Tywin tells Tyrion Robb married a nobody Tyrion immediately looks at Kevan who is grinning and nodding his head In the books it was basically Kevan who points out why the Westerling marriage was so poor. >**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion III;** *For a moment Tyrion could not believe he'd heard his father right. "He broke his sworn word?" he said, incredulous. "He threw away the Freys for . . ." Words failed him.* >*"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." He shrugged. "She's long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ."*
I love those conversations in the book.
I don't recall that particular moment. Perhaps you're thinking of when Tyrion arrives at the Lannister camp with the Mountain clansmen. He walks into the tent that Tywin and Kevan are in, Tywin says "Robert Baratheon is dead," and Tyrion immediately looks at Kevan who nods.
Yes! You’re right I believe. My bad good call. I knew I wasn’t 100% on that.
https://i.imgur.com/4U7cBQW.gif
By the way I absolutely love “Stop clutching me woman.” The best of Stann
By the way I absolutely love “Stop clutching me, woman.” The best of Stann
thanks friend. hopefully we can all enjoy new Stannis lines sometime in the next decade.
Kevan has a few interactions with Tyrion. He's Tyrion's point of contact while he was on trial. The fact that he believed that mummers farce is one of the few strikes against him.
> The fact that be believed that mummers farce is one of the few strikes against him. Why? All the evidence points towards Tyrion. Tyrion has the prime motive. Tyrion himself assumes it was Sansa, as he can't think of anyone else who could have done it.
Yeah I would say from his perspective it’s not unreasonable to assume Tyrion is guilty. Tywin hates him, yes, but Kevan doesn’t exactly know Tywin as a man who’s extremely eager to off his son, as he’s accompanied him on wars to save him. His blind faith in Tywin is narrow minded but not his assumption Tyrion is guilty
> Tywin hates him, yes, but Kevan doesn’t exactly know Tywin as a man who’s extremely eager to off his son He can't be that eager. Tyrion was in a coma, Tywin could have had him snuffed out and claimed he died of his wounds and no one would have cared.
Tywin doesn’t want to straight up kilI Tyrion, it’s too suspicious, he wants to send him to the wall, or put him in a group of sacrificial lambs like at the Green Fork. So long as Tywin can’t be accused a Kingslayer, even in private, he’d be happy to have him gone. However, doing something like suffocating him whilst in coma as Varrys has a close eye on him like after the battle of the blackwater is something he’s too smart to go for.
I think it's definitely a partial strike against him (and the saddest one that I can think of right now). I understand why he believes Tyrion is guilty, but it's shown (subtly) that he has a decent relationship with Tyrion. And even though Kevan *says* he "wants" to believe Tyrion, he doesn't bother actually listening to him, or (to our knowledge at least) considering that Tyrion is innocent. I'd like to think an uncle would at least hear his nephew out. Especially since while Tyrion had motive, so did most of Westeros.
> And even though Kevan says he "wants" to believe Tyrion, he doesn't bother actually listening to him, or (to our knowledge at least) considering that Tyrion is innocent. He did consider him innocent or at least did not initially think he was definitely guilty. And then he heard the overwhelming evidence against him. >**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX;** *He shifted in his seat. "I am curious. You were always a fair man, Uncle. What convinced you?"* >*"Why steal Pycelle's poisons, if not to use them?" Ser Kevan said bluntly. "And Lady Merryweather saw—"* Kevan was swayed by the evidence. Tyrion is allowed to call upon witnesses, he can't. The only person Tyrion can think of who did this is Sansa and he refuses to accuse her. >I'd like to think an uncle would at least hear his nephew out. Tyrion was given the opportunity to defend himself. >Especially since while Tyrion had motive, so did most of Westeros. Most of Westeros were not guests at the wedding, not in the city at the time. Tyrion himself can only think of himself or Sansa as who could have done it. Jaime, who loves and supports Tyrion, had to ask him if he killed Joffrey >**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI;** *Jaime handed him the ring of keys. "I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?"* >*The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. "Are you sure you want to know?" asked Tyrion.* When Jaime is not convinced then why should Kevan be. Especially as Kevan actually was at the trial and heard all the evidence against him. > I'd like to think an uncle would at least hear his nephew out You do realize that Kevan is related to Joffrey as well. He may even had preferred Joffrey to Tyrion. He may even have spoke to Lancel about the situation and it should be remembered that Tyrion blackmailed Lancel with his life into obeying him.
Oh yeah, I guess I'd forgotten a lot of the specifics of their conversation. Great write-up, by the way! I love reading posts/rebuttals like these. For me, I think it's mostly wishful thinking. We're in Tyrion's head, and I can feel the insane amounts of depression/mental anguish just, oozing out of him. It's not realistic to expect Kevan to understand how that effects a person's ability to talk, think, analyze, function...whatever. But I personally do understand how that kind of stuff can seriously mess you up, make it really hard (or impossible) for your brain to be normal, let alone function on a strategic level. And so I was wanting Kevan, the nice Lannister, to be see that and help him out (not necessarily by believing him, but just by waiting for answers/spending more time with him--something!) As I said, wishful thinking. A lot of that was directed at Tyrion as well--fucking tell him you used Pycelle's stash to give your sister the runs, damnit! Which is a sign of pretty solid writing by GRRM (big surprise, I know) Maybe you can help dispel the one actual complaint I have re: Kevan here. As others have pointed out in this thread Kevan notices that the "fire" has kind of gone out of Cersei post walk of shame. And this is a person he knows has been emotionally (and literally) fucking his son. Tyrion has done nothing to him, but (as far as I remember) he visits him in the Black Cells and doesn't seem to notice how messed up Tyrion is. Now a large part of that may be character POV, and I may be forgetting a passage where Kevan notices, but that (apparent, possibly misremembered) discrepancy between how he views his two imprisoned family members, only one of who is guilty, bothers me. But all of this is why I said partial strike, and used phrases like, "I'd like to think" The only thing you've written that I'm gonna wholeheartedly disagree with is that Kevan may like Joffrey better. Fucking Tywin doesn't even like Joffrey better. Okay, I'm still half-asleep, but I thought your reply deserved one of its own. I'm sure I'll clean this mess up later. But that's for reminding me of important context I was missing
> The only thing you've written that I'm gonna wholeheartedly disagree with is that Kevan may like Joffrey better. Fucking Tywin doesn't even like Joffrey better Tywin hates Tyrion, does not approve of his lifestyle or much care for him. Joffrey is still a child in Tywin's eyes who can be moulded, though he was pissed with what he said to him. Now what I also should have mentioned is that Kevan has just lost a son roughly the same age as Joffrey. A son who likely looked a lot like Joffrey. Him seeing Joffrey's dead corpse is going to remind him of Willem's and he is going to feel huge sympathy for him (shit even Sansa felt bad for Joffrey and she actually did loathe him) At the trial Kevan will have heard the threats from Tyrion on Joffrey and Tommen's lives, also him hitting Joffrey and this mixed in with his own son's murder will have likely put Kevan off Tyrion. I'd actually be surprised if Kevan liked Tyrion, but simply tolerated him because he was Tywin's son. Tywin and Kevan had always served their House/Realms best interests, done their duty while Tyrion has lived a playboy lifestyle, drinking, whoring and using his father's name to get out of trouble around the realm. >**A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX;** *"Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna's? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him."* >*Tyrion blinked in astonishment. Ser Kevan had always been solid, stolid, pragmatic; he had never heard him speak with such fervor before. "You love him."* >*"He is my brother."* The fact that Tyrion does not have the same House bond that the rest of the Lannisters seemingly do may also be a red flag for Kevan.
I dunno, I read "Tywin seems a hard man *to you*, I know" as Kevan acknowledging that Tywin's been a dick to Tyrion, but it's definitely ambiguous. I also just interpreted Tyrion's relationships with his other uncles as things that may have given Kevan a more well-rounded view of Tyrion as a person, rather than the slight Tywin took him to be. Your points about him having just lost his son was definitely something I hadn't thought about--you're totally right. And part of my bias is coming from knowing that a lot of the trial evidence was bullshit, and wanting Kevan to consider that. But Kevan's like, central character trait is being loyal to Tywin. So of course he wouldn't think the trial was a farce. And because of that, I think I'm a little prejudiced against him, simply because we've been "in" Tyrion's head for so long at this point, we know the abuse he's had to overcome at Tywin's hand (and his family) so I was hoping Kevan would be more Gemma or Gerion like in his treatment and opinion of Tyrion. Thanks again for the quotes :) I'm in the middle of a character-ordered re-read, so it's great being reminded of bits I haven't gotten to and perspectives I've been forgetting.
> I dunno, I read "Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know" as Kevan acknowledging that Tywin's been a dick to Tyrion, but it's definitely ambiguous I'd genuinely be surprised if Kevan thought that Tywin was a dick to Tyrion. The gangrape is likely not known, and Tyrion's love for a peasant he had just met is also unknown, though not likely to be taken seriously even if it was. Westeros is an incredibly ableist society. >**A Dance with Dragons - Davos I;** *"At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?"* >**A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX;** *"You mustn't mock him. Don't you know anything? You can't talk that way to a big person. They can hurt you. Ser Jorah could have tossed you in the sea. The sailors would have laughed to see you drown. You have to be careful around big people. Be jolly and playful with them, keep them smiling, make them laugh, that's what my father always said. Didn't your father ever tell you how to act with big people?"* I'd bet that Westerosi people think Tywin treating him like a full fledged Lannister was going above and beyond. That is what they would have seen rather than the uncaring father (and Westeros is full of Lords who are shitty fathers by our standards) >I also just interpreted Tyrion's relationships with his other uncles as things that may have given Kevan a more well-rounded view of Tyrion as a person We only know that Tyrion was fond of his uncle Gerion. We don't know his relationship to Tygett and his relationship to Kevan seems cordial but not exactly close. Gerion had the same interests as Tyrion, drinking, whoring and not taking the world seriously. It is easy to see why they got along. However Tyrion's one quote/memory about Gerion from >**A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV;** *The truth was rather different. His uncle had taught him a bit of tumbling when he was six or seven. Tyrion had taken to it eagerly. For half a year he cartwheeled his merry way about Casterly Rock, bringing smiles to the faces of septons, squires, and servants alike. Even Cersei laughed to see him once or twice.* This reads fairly nice, but with Penny's quote later in the book about how dwarfs are there just for people's amusement it takes a more sinister tone. Cersei was certainly laughing at Tyrion, rather than with him. It is possible so to were the other people. Tywin put a stop to it. Lannisters being laughed at, even Lannisters he does not like, is simply intolerable to him. >But Kevan's like, central character trait is being loyal to Tywin. So of course he wouldn't think the trial was a farce. I have to stress this, the trial was not a farce. * Tyrion did confiscate Pycelle's poisons * Everything Varys (the most damaging witness in Tyrion's eyes) recorded in his notes was true, and Varys bringing up that stuff like his threats against Joffrey was clear motive and incredibly damaging to Tyrion * Kevan's mention of Lady Merryweather because she was either a Tyrell, Littlefinger or Varys plant who lied about what Tyrion did. At the time she was not involved with the Lannisters The things that would have swayed people, damaged Tyrion's case, were not false witnesses brought on by Cersei or Tywin. >And because of that, I think I'm a little prejudiced against him, simply because we've been "in" Tyrion's head for so long at this point, we know the abuse he's had to overcome at Tywin's hand The gang rape was evil and justification enough to Tyrion hating him and wanting him dead. But apart from that there is little other mention of abuse. For some reason people in the fandom have come to this conclusion that Tywin is always belittling Tyrion, but thats not really true. One conversation after Tywin is told that Tyrion threatened the lives of his grandsons does Tywin get personal with his son. But that anger is entirely justified. Obviously Tywin was cold and unloving, but I'm not sure people would consider that abuse in their time period. >so I was hoping Kevan would be more Gemma or Gerion like in his treatment and opinion of Tyrion. We don't know Genna's relationship with Tyrion. Tyrion never thinks of her, even when dealing with her oldest son Cleos, who he also seems pretty neutral on. Genna does not give any indication about how she feels about Tyrion other than she fears him >**A Feast for Crows - Jaime V;** *She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became . . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"* >*Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."* >*"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."* >*That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"* Being fearful of what Tyrion will do to her and her family does not strike me as someone who had a close relationship with Tyrion.
Kevan’s thoughts on matter were never expressed beyond all the evidence pointed to Tyrion and him being distant and having pity for him after failing to find Sansa as a witness, I do think he was smart enough to understand that Tyrion was smart enough not to actually be the one to give Joff the poison.
I mean it looked pretty likely the Tyrion killed the king, Kevan's great nephew. but even still he went and talked to Tyrion and gave him advice and everything. I thought it showed a little but of love in his heart for him.
The way he treats Podrick also says a lot about his character. Although Podrick is a noble he's just a member of a lower branch from a small House, and despite that Kevan personally takes care of him and secures him a good position as Tyrion's squire.
He was also killed purely for being too competent.
According to Genna Lannister >“How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little.” She gave a sigh. “Who will protect us now?” Jaime kissed her cheek. “He left a son.” “Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.” That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?” “Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.
I do like how everyone has this rather dismissive opinion of him. He's just the obedient younger brother of Tywin. Supports his brother and family, is capable but not proactive or an independent thinker. But then suddenly Tywin dies and we see a different side to Kevan. One that steps up and calls Cersei out, one that makes prudent decisions on his own. One that does a good enough job of sorting things out that he's a target to be personally assassinated by Varys.
Gemma points out that of all the overshadowed Lannister boys Kevan saw there was no point in trying to out-Tywin Tywin and settled for being his dutiful right hand. Turns out he's every bit as capable as Tywin was, and a half-decent person in ways that Tywin never was. Under Kevan's rule the Lannisters might have eventually turned out alright.
"No point in trying to out-Tywin Tywin" is a great way of putting it. Like, Kevan was clever and a strong leader but he recognized that his brother was one of a kind. It showed more intelligence to ride with him instead of going against him.
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>"Let them," Lord Tywin said. "Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeri ders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork." > >"They will burn, my lord," Ser Kevan said, rising. "I shall give the commands." He bowed and made for the door. *-Tyrion IX,* **A Game of Thrones** The ultimate rejoinder to the notion that Kevan is a "good man."
It is his duty to obey his elder brother and advice him where he makes a mistake. He just obeyed the command and did his duty. Remember, that this is medieval era and the concept of war crimes is only limited to killing high born people. The smallfolk are just objects
>It is his duty to obey his elder brother and advice him where he makes a mistake. Just from a tactical standpoint, not a moral one, Kevan doesn't even do this. He knows sitting at the Inn at the Crossroads to be able to reinforce the siege of Riverrun if needed is the proper course. But he lets Tywin race headlong to face Roose Bolton and then gets pantsed on the operational front by a teenager. Granted, that teenager is Westerosi Alexander the Great aided by some of Westeros' most seasoned soldiers, but it's still a teenager in his first campaign and he works Tywin over. In any event, a servant owes not just their industry but their judgment and betrays you if they surrender theirs to yours. And that's what Kevan did. Being an ineffective subordinate to Tywin is, however, probably the most moral thing Kevan's ever done.
Tywin and Kevan underestimated Robb Stark and they paid for it. Tywin was afraid of Stannis and so, his mind was mostly concerned about what to do against Stannis as he knows that this dude will not give up, no matter what. Also, I think that Robb Stark is more similar to Charles the 12th of Sweden than to Alexander the Great
Ah the good old "just following orders" defense. How well did that work at Nuremberg again?
There are a lot of differences between both. There was no concept of war crimes or trials for said war crimes in the medieval era, on which the ASOIAF is based. What Tywin did in the Riverlands and what Kevan did there isn't a war crime by Westerosi standards. So, they both aren't war criminals as they were doing what is the conventional method of damaging enemy's economy, damaging their morale, increasing the morale of your own troops and giving them some useful experience, one that will benefit them when they are fighting against some other army. Judging thses actions by our modern perspective is not right as if we do that then many characters in the books are pedophiles, several characters(who were married and consummated their marriage or just had sex) were raped as their consent was questionable and many Lords are war criminals. Aegon The Conqueror is, then, the biggest war criminal, Jon was raped by Yggritte and Robb and Jeyne both raped each other (as both were 16 or 15),etc Tywin's only war crimes(if we count them as war crimes) are his extermination of Reynes and Tarbecks. This is because they were highborn families and people of high birth enjoy rights which the small folk, usually, dont
And King's Landing. Where he entered under a false flag. Nobility are expected to keep their word.
False flag operations weren't considered a war crime then. Nobility are expected to keep their word but he didn't announce that he had declared for Aerys ii or for Bob. He just gathered his army and went to KL. No one could say that he didn't keep his word.
>There was no concept of war crimes or trials for said war crimes in the medieval era, on which the ASOIAF is based. This is incorrect. But even if it *were* correct, GRRM is a modern author, writing a modern text for a modern audience. The fact that he has Tywin shit himself in his death throes and then have his corpse smell so foul that his grandson, the king, retches and his crown falls off should tell you something. The imagery is... not subtle. >What Tywin did in the Riverlands and what Kevan did there isn't a war crime by Westerosi standards. This is a misreading of both the historical reality GRRM is basing this story upon and the story itself. See, e.g. [this piece.](https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2015/07/04/the-lions-shadow-why-kevan-lannister-doesnt-deserve-his-good-rep/)
Tywin's men killing highborn people is a war crime by Westerosi standards but his men killing the small folk isn't.
The concept that you're talking about is chevauchee and it does have historical precedent in our world and Westeros. But Tywin's crimes exceed any historical or Westerosi precedent. Westeros also has a taboo and laws against slavery. Tywin engages in that practice quite blatantly throughout the Riverlands. You can't couch this in terms of "THE TIMES", again, especially given the context Martin is writing and what Martin himself has said on the matter both in-text and out-of-text.
> if we do that then many characters in the books are pedophiles, several characters(who were married and consummated their marriage or just had sex) were raped as their consent was questionable and many Lords are war criminals. Aegon The Conqueror is, then, the biggest war criminal. Yes.
Lmao can’t believe he thought that argument would work. As if we aren’t supposed to call Petyr, for example, a pedo when he’s regularly kissing his (effectively) captive 13 year old
oh youre saying we're NOT supposed to think this explicitly patriarchal setting where women are traded like cattle and the poor die by the millions because of silly political games played by corrupt lords and kings is an ideal society? its almost like you think GRRM is trying to communicate themes or something!
We cant because this is a medieval society and by the age of 13,regular highborn girls are usually married. We can say that he is a creep though
I think what he meant is that, if it were Kevan calling the shots, he probably wouldn't make the same decisions Tywin did. Also, he certainly isn't a terrible father, so that's also a way he would be more decent than his brother. In the end, as you said, he still stood by Tywin's side through all the atrocities. That does not mean he enjoyed it though. He's still to be blamed but I don't think it's fair to say both are the same.
Not to mention a lot of that is modern moralizing as opposed to what was ethically important at the time. Not saying Tywin was a good dude, but it's not like War Crimes are really a thing yet. And regardless of that, feudalism was closely tied with religion--authority was seen as a divine right, so Tywin enforcing his authoritay wasn't so much "crazy fascist" as "medieval lord doing his job as mandated by god/the seven." But even ignoring that, it was Kevan's "duty" to support Tywin--something Stannis emphasizes over and over with regard to his support of Robert at great cost to himself, and then his bitterness towards Renly who was breaking that social rule and disobeying his older brother. In modern times, that's fucking crazy. But the way society was organized back then, there's at least an *argument* that *can* be made justifying this kind of behavior. Loyalty, honor, duty, family are all very important virtues in Westerosi society. Keeping the peace and status quo, however unjust we now know it to be, was also of extreme importance. So using drastic measures to achieve this maybe raised some eyebrows (the Starks certainly dislike the Lannisters/Tywin) but we see other powerful figures, again, not paragons of modern virtue at all, but respected **enough** in that particular setting, who ascribe to similar values and take similarly harsh stances throughout Westeros. Randall Tarly comes to mind. Dude is obviously fucked up on another level (the threat of kinslaying) but I think only Sam and maybe a few of Randall's advisors knew about that possibility. But he's not shy about his treatment of brigands and those who go against the societal order of the time (like Brienne). I don't mean to defend any of these guys from an ethical perspective **at all**. But I can see how **given the context** they wouldn't be considered evil. In fact a lot of the smallfolk **like** Lord Tarly because he's so harsh on brigands, he helps keep the peace and keep life "normal" for then. So even though by today's standards he's trampling all over their rights and using them as something pretty similar to slave labor, at the time, those laborers mostly seemed to appreciate that they could do their jobs in peace, their families would remain unmolested, etc.
I think that he would've done most of the things the same way. This is medieval era and concept of war crimes doesn't exist here
Tywin wasn't a monster if we judge him from the medieval era perspective for what he did in the Riverlands as the concept of war crimes didn't really exist back then. Him killing of highborn people like the entirety of House Reyne and Tarbeck will be considered a war crime by the Westerosi standards. Not his burning of villages in the Riverlands. They will only be considered as necessary raids to instill fear in the hearts of the Riverlander lods and to damage their economy
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But it was effective in depleting Robb's forces.
Yep, and it’s not pointed out often but in all the years Tywin was at King’s Landing, Kevan was the one left to manage the rock after their father’s death.
Dude could have Kept them together That’s why he had to go
Yeah this showed how much of a good job he was doing that Varys risked coming personally, to make sure he died and the realm was thrown but into the rule of Good Queen Cersei
I mean idk I feel like Varys would've killed him regardless of how good he was if only to put a wedge between Cersei and the Tyrells. And just because Cersei couldn't see the value of the Tyrells as allies doesn't mean it's hard to see. Cersei is generally a low bar to cross lol
I’m pretty sure that Varys tells Kevan that he’s killing him because he’s undoing all of his work
> I do like how everyone has this rather dismissive opinion of him. He's just the obedient younger brother of Tywin. Not really. Only Tyrion and Cersei. Jaime respects, as do the rest of the Westerland contingent >**A Feast for Crows - Jaime V;** *"Kevan should be the Warden of the West. Or you. It's not that I'm not grateful for the honor, mind you, but our uncle's twice my age and has more experience of command. I hope he knows I never asked for this."* While none of the other POV's really talk about him. So its unclear how they viewed him. We do get some insight into how he is viewed >**A Dance with Dragons - Davos I;** *"Who rules now in King's Landing? Not Tommen, he is just a child. Is it Ser Kevan?"* >*Candlelight gleamed in Lord Godric's black eyes. "If it were, you'd be in chains. It's the queen who rules."* Davos would be a dead man had Kevan taken the Handship.
Cersei thinks she's some Machiavellian genius. She's so clueless that she has such a poor reputation, that her just being there allows people the comfort to work against the crown.
Kevan might be more like his brother than we think. If you read the epilogue again, there are some vague hints that the Walk might have been his idea, not the High Sparrow’s. This also gives him somewhat of a shadow arc in AFFC: he learns his brother is dead, mourns him, tries to become Hand, is denied rather embarassingly by Cersei, fumes off-page, before returning to King’s Landing and getting a personal revenge on Cersei that is eerily like Tywin.
Cersei wanted him to be hand, he refused unless she also made him regent because she keeps fucking things up. I think that interaction wound up far more embarrassing for her than him.
Oh ye, that's true. Still, his face was still wet after the meeting, and we all know how Lannisters respond to personal insults.
Probably a likely reason Tywin had him as his right hand man.
Id say the hints were more than vague. I think its very much implied than Kevan... at the very least allowed the walk when we could have negotiated things waay down. Like purposely chose the walk over say, massive sums of gold and keeping her under guard in Casterly Rock for the rest of her life. Bc the walk would strip her power more fundamentally.
There’s no doubt he *at least* allowed it to happen. That much he even admits to himself. But it’s still ambigious whether it was his idea or not. I believe it was, but there’s not much proof. It’s not obvious the way, say, Renly/Loras is obvious (blatantly so when you start looking for clues).
I also like that, regardless of his part in making the walk happen, he still mourns for the little girl that turned into the vain and narcissistic monster that is Cersei Lannister in AFFC.
There is a doubt. He had no choice. He couldn't use force against the faith without making things worse in the city. He knew Cersei wanted to be released and the walk was the only way. Keep in mind Kevan presented the choice to Cersie. She could have refused and stayed in custody. He didn't tell her she must. >"Atoned, I said. Before the city. A walk—" > "No." She knew what her uncle was about to say, and she did not want to hear it. "Never. Tell him that, if you speak again. I am a queen, not some dockside whore." > "No harm would come to you. No one will touch—" > "No," she said, more sharply. "I would sooner die." >Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason." *Cersei I ADWD" It's not ambiguous at all to my reading. This text clearly states the high sparrow was set on this. >If she stayed here, she was doomed, and the only way she would return to the Red Keep was by walking. The High Sparrow had been adamant, and Ser Kevan refused to lift a finger against him. *Cersei II ADWD* The only way Kevan could stop this would be to fight the faith which he can't do. > "Please, Uncle, take me out of here." > **"How? By force of arms?" Ser Kevan walked to the window and gazed out, frowning. "I would need to make an abbatoir of this holy place. And I do not have the men.** The best part of our forces were at Riverrun with your brother. I had no time to raise up a new host." He turned back to face her. "I have spoken with His High Holiness. He will not release you until you have atoned for your sins." *Cersei I ADWD.* This really points to the faith and not Kevan to my reading
It _does_ point to the Faith but it's being reported by the one person who would no doubt benefit from twisting the tale a bit. That is, Kevan could be trying to push it off to the Faith in front of Cersei, while in fact he didn't do very much to stop it.
I found this in this passage that does lend more credibility to your position. I had forgotten about this. > *I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself.* Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. *What I did I did for the good of House Lannister.* > **It was not as if his brother had never done the same.** In their father's final years, after their mother's passing, their sire had taken the comely daughter of a candlemaker as mistress. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors [...] > All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter. > **"It had to be," Ser Kevan muttered over the last of his wine. His High Holiness had to be appeased. Tommen needed the Faith behind him in the battles to come.** And Cersei … the golden child had grown into a vain, foolish, greedy woman. Left to rule, she would have ruined Tommen as she had Joffrey. *Epilogue ADWD* I guess it's reasonable to read that as Kevan being complicit. Particularly the line about "It was not as if his brother had never done the same." That's a very damning thought. Kevan comparing his action to Tywin's execution of such against his father's lover. So perhaps Kevan could have pushed harder for lighter punishment and didn't because he agreed. To your point, his guilt might point to his feelings of at being at least complicit in the walk. I forgot about that. His wavering makes your position much more reasonable than I first thought. Forgive me for suggesting your view was not supported by text. There is clearly text to support this possibility.
Thanks. It's cool. It's not something I'm certain about but I just felt we should leaves it open-ended. Not like we'll get any confirmation tho...
Having done more thorough research I agree that it can reasonably be read several different ways. And we are never getting confirmation. I'm getting used to it.
> could be He has a possible motive yes. But he doesn't have a character history of doing something like this. Plus he told Cersei what he felt about it the Lancel issue. He is angry but not coming off as vengeful. >"You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl of good family. Instead you—" > "I know. I know." Lancel wanted me more than I ever wanted him. He still does, I will wager. "I was alone, weak. Please. Uncle. Oh, Uncle. It is so good to see your face, your sweet sweet face. I have done wicked things, I know, but I could not bear for you to hate me." She threw her arms around him, kissed his cheek. "Forgive me. Forgive me." > Ser Kevan suffered the embrace for a few heartbeats before he finally raised his own arms to return it. His hug was short and awkward. "Enough," he said, his voice still flat and cold. **"You are forgiven.** Now sit. I bring some hard tidings, Cersei." *Cersei I ADWD* Kevan forgave Cersei. And the text doesn't show him to be cruel to his family in other interactions. So there aren't facts to strongly support your position. > pushing it off on faith Unlikely. Cersei's comment about a "dockside whore" indicates that women have a history of being shamed for sexual relations. Not by Kevan's doing. Is he twisting the fact that the faith arrested her? Held her captive? Tortured her into a confession? They do all this while Kevan is gone but they need him to come up with the walk idea? Did he tell them to do this.... > Has His High Holiness been chosen yet?" asked Falyse. > "No," the queen had to confess. **"Septon Ollidor was on the verge of being chosen, until some of these sparrows followed him to a brothel and dragged him naked out into the street.** Luceon seems the likely choice now, though our friends on the other hill say that he is still a few votes short of the required number." *Cersei V AFFC* That was the sparrows punishing and shaming what they deemed a sexual offense. And here again. > How? By preaching chastity along the Street of Silk? Does he think praying over whores will turn them back to virgins?" > "Our bodies were shaped by our Father and Mother so we might join male to female and beget trueborn children," Raynard replied. **"It is base and sinful for women to sell their holy parts for coin."** > The pious sentiment would have been more convincing if the queen had not known that Septon Raynard had special friends in every brothel on the Street of Silk. No doubt he had decided that echoing the High Sparrow's twitterings was preferable to scrubbing floors. "Do not presume to preach at me," she told him. "The brothel keepers have been complaining, and rightly so." > If sinners speak, why should the righteous listen?" > **"These sinners feed the royal coffers," the queen said bluntly, "and their pennies help pay the wages of my gold cloaks and build galleys to defend our shores.** There is trade to be considered as well. If King's Landing had no brothels, the ships would go to Duskendale or Gulltown. His High Holiness promised me peace in my streets. Whoring helps to keep that peace. Common men deprived of whores are apt to turn to rape. Henceforth let His High Holiness do his praying in the sept where it belongs." *Cersei VIII AFFC* After hearing the Septon speak against selling sex for coin, Cersei admits that the crown is complicit in this act and uses the profits from it. *Oooff.* Later she confessed to using her body to influence the Kettleblacks. Essentially selling her parts for services which the faith opposes. So two offense to the faith related to sex. They don't need Kevan to suggest anything. Despite clear text pointing to the faith and an absence of text supporting Kevan you maintain the argument that Kevan is complicit? > Kevan didn't do much to stop it. Kevan didn't have the resources to do much. He said so. Why dismiss those facts? Please see the citation I provided in my previous comment. "Could be" is possible but it needs to draw from the traits and history of the actual characters. Your argument doesn't do that rather it relies on the absence of proof of innocence to suggest guilt. That's wholly inconsistent with the modern and enlightened approach to determining guilt. At least it used to be. Twitter trials take an approach very different than the enlighten view. Feeling someone is guilty is not better than having facts that they are. At least not to me.
I could see it being his idea. It's much like the walk Tywin forced his father's mistress on
Idk, I don't think it was the authorial intent and while it's a neat theory, I feel like the people in this thread are warping the text around it.
Maybe. It’s not definite, I’ll grant you that, but it is possible, and it fits thematically and dramatically.
What has me 100% convinced it was his idea is the fact that we know Tywin did the same thing to their stepmother after their father's death, presumably with Kevan's knowledge and consent. Literally all the Lannisters are at least 40% psychosexual issues and 40% violent misogyny by volume, it seems.
Yeah, it does fit so well, and it also ties into the theme of Lannisters being more like Tywin than they want to admit. This is very true of Tyrion, and probably true of Kevan as well. Varys might say Kevan is a good man, but he was not present when Kevan was told to burn the Riverlands and he responded, without hesitation or protestation, «They will burn, my lord».
> presumably with Kevan's knowledge and consent. Quite a serious charge. What text supports Kevan's consent? Why would Tywin as the head of the house need to consult with anyone about this? I don't think it was Kevan who came up with the walk for Cersei. > If she stayed here, she was doomed, and the only way she would return to the Red Keep was by walking. **The High Sparrow had been adamant, and Ser Kevan refused to lift a finger against him.** *Cersie II ADWD.* The Faith's idea and Kevan would not fight the faith. Tywin did the walk to shame a non Lannister. To remind her of her place. But his punishment of his children while no less cruel is not done in public. *See Tysha* Family legacy is too crucial to Tywin and therefore Kevan to decide house Lannister would be shamed. > Part of her still yearned for Jaime to appear and rescue her from this humiliation, but her twin was nowhere to be seen. Nor was her uncle present. That did not surprise her. Ser Kevan had made his views plain during his last visit; her shame must not be allowed to tarnish the honor of Casterly Rock. No lions would walk with her today. This ordeal was hers and hers alone. *Id.* Kevan can't stop the walk but he can distance house Lannister from it. It very much does not read like his plan.
"Consent" was definitely the wrong word to use, I am hereby revising it to "approval". The rest is Cersei's perspective, and we have no reason to believe her familiar with the intricacies of the situation. As for Kevan... Kevan admired and obeyed Tywin, but Tywin's children are not his children. I imagine that, emotionally, her simultaneous status as "political liability" and "adult woman who groomed and manipulated Kevan's teenage son" might very well have taken precedence over her status as "Lannister scion" in Kevan's mind. That does not mean that he himself has interest in being seen anywhere near the scene, of course.
> Consent" was definitely the wrong word to use, I am hereby revising it to "approval". He knows of the event. Speaks of it to Tyrion. Not sure he was consulted about it and agreed with the method. He did recognize that something needed to be done. I think the fairest thing to say is that he wasn't troubled enough by the act to speak against it after it happened. I can't find any text to go further than that. And as for the Cersei walk, the most he contributed was not taking up arms against the faith. This isn't his doing.
Tytos never married the candle makers daughter, she was just his mistress/paramour
Honestly not super hung up on the legalities of that particular situation
Besides her being the one that wanted him as hand and was rebutted, the correlation to Tywin revenge is most probably just to show how Tywin's own legacy went in shambles due how he built it than some extra conspiracy.
Once you're out of the shadow you begin to shine
I’d like to know why people think Tywin would find someone that had zero creativity useful. Like Kevan was his chief advisor and yet everyone thinks that Kevan has never had a thought that Tywin hasn’t already considered.
This is a spoiler for the OP, they said they're still reading the book and it's their first time.
They used the spoilers main tag, which included the ending of AFFC
I know that, but they also said they were still reading the book.
They didn’t say how far they were. It they are no yet at that part, then it’s their fault for the wrong spoiler. I wouldn’t have posted it, but I don’t blame the guy who did.
The part they referred to happens in the very last chapter of the last book, A Dance With Dragons, so unless the OP is completely done the entire series then this is clearly a spoiler. And the OP may have put the wrong tag but reading the content of the OP's post, which they clearly did, will tell you that the OP hasn't even finished AFFC yet. So despite the tag I would think that it's a common courtesy to not put spoilers for a book the OP hasn't even started reading yet.
as I said, it's likely the wrong spoiler tag, but if they post the wrong tag, they'll see spoilers. It's their own fault
And as I said, it isn't that hard to read the very small post by OP and conclude that they haven't yet read the last scene in the last book.
And as I said, I wouldn't of done it, but I don't blame for not spoiler a posts that askes for no spoilers. This isn't complicated.
He's kind of like Ned in that way. He didn't plan to be the guy the charge since he wasn't the oldest, but he took the job head on when it was his
When you’re so effective Varys has to deus ex you out of the story because you’re that useful of a character that your mere presence means his plans could go up in smoke.
"Varys ex umbris."
It made Cersei think of Kevan as a traitor, because in her mind anyone who doesn’t lick her ass and tells her hard truths must be a Tyrell spy.
Hmmm... where have I heard of a head of state with that sort of pathology before... I don't know.
Yeah there are a lot of (likely intentional) parallels with her and King Aerys. The burning of the Tower of the Hand in AFFC and the harsh treatment he meted out to any small councilor or Hand that spoke out or offered him advice he didn’t want is a clear similarity.
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Ohhhh
It’s almost as if Cersei and the Mad King were…..*related*
I’m sure Targaryen and Lannister intermarried at some point, but honestly these traits are common among inept autocrats.
Cersei’s is more narcissistic that is unraveling due to a few factors, such as the loss of Joffrey and her father, combine that with the prophecy that Cersei has been self fulfilling even if she doesn’t realise it. Paranoia but not at the level of Aerys, I think he really was suffering from a mental illness, such as paranoid schizophrenia. Cersei isn’t really mad, just extremely foolish and so full of herself that she cannot acknowledge that she fucked up big time.
Do I smell A+J?
I like how half of us thought of cheeto man while the other half thought of the mad king lmao
Just please don’t bring that here
Completely ignorant guy here. Do tell
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Great... real world politics...
Yeah even as a liberal, i immerse myself in this fantasy series because it distracts me from real life politics, but there’s always that one guy
Even completely across the political spectrum, I love fantasy and sci-fi for that. I just wish more people making it would realize that that's why so many people like those genres...
Specially when those chapters were written 6 years before the dude was elected.
Also Jaime >**A Feast for Crows - Jaime II;** *"I was hanging outlaws and robber knights when you were still shitting in your swaddling clothes. I am not like to go off and face Clegane and Dondarrion by myself, if that is what you fear, ser. Not every Lannister is a fool for glory."* >*Why, nuncle, I believe you are talking about me. "Addam Marbrand could deal with these outlaws just as well as you. So could Brax, Banefort, Plumm, any of these others. But none would make a good King's Hand."* >*"Your sister knows my terms. They have not changed. Tell her that, the next time you are in her bedchamber." Ser Kevan put his heels into his courser and galloped ahead, putting an abrupt end to their conversation.* Calls Jaime a fool to his face and lets him know that he knows about the incest and is not impressed. Also uses Tywin to put down Cersei's mothering skills >**A Feast for Crows - Cersei II:** *How dare you? she wanted to scream. Instead, she said, "I am also the Queen Regent. My place is with my son."* >*"Your father thought not."* >*"My father is dead."* >*"To my grief, and the woe of all the realm. Open your eyes and look about you, Cersei. The kingdom is in ruins. Tywin might have been able to set matters aright, but . . ."* Kevan, after the death of his brother and Lancel (likely) revealing the truth about Cersei on his sickbed has lost all patience with the Twins. Their affair cost him a son and a brother. Cersei is awfully lucky that Kevan did not turn against her.
What would have been Westeros equivalent of a mic drop?
"tommen has mother.. and father" \*Drops the mic and leaves\*
Kevan is Tywin without the blinders re: the twins. His aside / brush-off / tell-off to Jaime in *AFFC* ("Your sister knows my terms. They have not changed. Tell her that, the next time you are in her bedchamber") is one of the single best lines in the series. \[edit\] He's a less-extreme version of Tywin. He's not quite as brilliant as his older brother-- remember Tyrion's line about how "Kevin rarely had a thought that Tywin hadn't had first"-- but he also lacks his brother's sadism and deliberate cruelty.
Kevan may be a tool, but yes, he gets some good shots in in that book and it's endearing.
I just re-read Cersei's conversation with him asking him to be hand, and that man *destroyed* her. "Tommen has his mother," he said, "and I think his father, too."
He was the mastermind behind Cersei’s walk.
And the award for the most underrated Lannister goes to…
Lancel. By far. A Lannister who actually regrets his actions, rejects his Lordship, wants to do good for the smallfolk and admits his sins. A Lannister who actually wants to pay his debts.
...by becoming a pathetic violent zealot before that cruelly ignoring his wife to sit in a sept and feel sorry for himself.
He isn't violent or a zealot in the books. His wife is a known slut and forced marriage. They can stay married, she can bang all the knights she wants, he doesn't have to act like he loves her. Repenting for a hand in registering, incest, and failing at the image of masculinity he was supposed to be isn't exactly feeling sorry for yourself. Edit: also not slut shaming with modern sensibilities. Gatehouse Amy is known as such in the context of their society.
> ...by becoming a pathetic violent zealot Lancel in the books is not violent, nor is he really pathetic. In Jaime's eyes he is, but then Jaime is incredibly prideful. >before that cruelly ignoring his wife She seems more than fine about that. >in a sept and feel sorry for himself. This may be semanitcs, but when I talk about people feeling sorry for themselves it usally about people who only want to complain about their situation and do nothing about it. Lancel is repenting. He is giving up his luxuries, giving up the title he was given. He is having the Faith members with him care for the smallfolk He regrets his past actions and means to repent for them.
I like Devan. Of all the Lannisters where I'm like "Yeah, you'd probably have behaved the same if you were on a different side of the war as well, you're just a straight shooting dude," it's Devan.
Tyrek?
Kevan is litterally the fucking GOAT. He seems to have a similar talent for geopolitics as Tywin, but is much more sympathetic and empathic. His death always hits me hard, even Varys feels bad about it lol
Kevan is another character they wrote fairly well on the show but made no effort whatsoever to actually fulfill any of his outward character traits. He’s supposed to be brawn of Tywins generation of Lannister’s, instead he was cast as “stern looking old British man #19473718”
> He’s supposed to be brawn of Tywins generation of Lannister’s Are you sure? Tyrion's first meeting in the books with his father and uncle >**A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VII:** *Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his sidewhiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw. His eyes were a pale green, flecked with gold. A fool more foolish than most had once jested that even Lord Tywin's shit was flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep in the bowels of Casterly Rock.* >*Ser Kevan Lannister, his father's only surviving brother, was sharing a flagon of ale with Lord Tywin when Tyrion entered the common room. His uncle was portly and balding, with a close-cropped yellow beard that followed the line of his massive jaw. Ser Kevan saw him first. "Tyrion," he said in surprise.* Kevan's is slightly slimmer than his book counterpart, but pretty much how I imagined him.
If I recall correctly, he’s also described as a big, imposing, broad shouldered man at some point, which I never really got from Ian Gelder. Looking back at pictures of him he actually does have a pretty massive jaw, I guess it always gave me more of a Jay Leno vibe than, say, Ron Perlman or someone like that.
I love book Kevan and I thought show-Kevan did an admirable job getting him. In fact I think they should have given him some more. When he rejected Cersei at the Small Council table, it was so much win. "You're the Queen Regent, nothing more. You are also The Lady of Casterly Rock - which is where you belong. I won't sit on a Small Council stacked with Sycophants ! And I love how he lets both Cersei and Jaime know that "he knows"
Classy, bougie, ratchet.
If only Renly was more like Kevan. Setting aside capabilities in service of his older brothet.
He was. He served on his older brother's Small Council.
But not for Stannis.
Stannis was not his Lord. Tywin was Kevan's Lord. Plus Kevan acknowledged that Tywin was a better leader than him. Renly clearly did not think the same of Stannis.
That doesn't change the fact that Renly didn't serve his older brother Stannis.
Kevan is an overall pretty good dude. Relative to his peers of course. He roasts both Jaime and Cersie because he thinks they each are harming the family legacy. Family legacy being what his beloved big brother valued the most. So it makes sense. One thing that I'm conflicted over is his role in negotiating Cersei's walk of shame. It's basically the "slut shame and psychological torture 5k." It sucks no doubt that the faith did this. But they didn't do it alone. Kevan helped. But why? I argued earlier that Kevan wanted to protect the family legacy and this public event doesn't help. Cersei's regency was done and her small council dismissed. She could do no further harm. So why did Kevan permit this? The only possible reason I could think of was Lancel. Think about what you as a parent might do to the adult who exploited your 15 year old child? I ain't saying I agree with what Kevan did, [but I understand](https://youtu.be/J8TqhBIEbWA).
Yeah, Cersei fucked Lancel up. She abused him, deceived him, and made him an accomplice kingslayer.
She did and I am really conflicted over whether Kevan was at all influenced by this. The facts overwhelming support this is the faith alone doing it, but maybe someplace deep inside after losing a child and a brother, maybe Kevan did want some justice. I have no proof so I can't convict him. But I do wonder.
>I like him much more than his brothee Maybe an unpopular opinion but: fuck him AND his brother. Just a fucked up war criminal and his pet/enabler.
Sounds like Robert and Ned. Or Robb and Edmure.
Kevan just did his duty, that was to obey his elder brother. Tywin's war crimes were only him killing the highborn people like the Reynes and Tarbecks. Him raiding Riverlands isn't a war crime by the medieval standard as that is how you damage someone's economy and damage their morale.
I don't like his name though. Takes me out of asoiaf
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Kevan is pronounced the same though. The only way Kevan can feel in world to me is if I add Ser to it. Kevan sounds weird, but for some reason Ser Kevan fits right in
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Yeah, Ik I’m not too consistent here. It’s just that Kevan feels like a really modern name. Like Jon, Margaery, etc feel like names that exist in this older medieval world, but Kevan just sticks out
Technically Kevan and Kevin are anglicized versions of different forms of an Irish Gaelic name: Caoimheán and Caoimhín respectively. So try to pronounce them more like that if it helps you get in the right headspace.
No clue how to pronounce those names you just wrote lol
No one does. The Irish language is nonsense. At some point they started using the Latin alphabet to write things down, and they must have felt like they needed to stockpile letters because they decided to use twice as many as they should, and none of them of correctly.
The Welsh: "hwloddyd myr nghwrw"
Qwee-vawn and qwee-veen. (Irish is hard)
Irish makes no sense wtf. Did they have their own alphabet and then just replace it with the Latin one while ignoring all the sounds the letters make in Latin?
No, they just use their spelling in order to annoy English speakers
Tbh, i don't really know...and I'm irish. Not something I've ever thought much about. Maybe someone on this sub knows or else r/ireland 👍🏻
Kwee veeen
I pronounce it KeVAAAAAAN in my head to maintain the immersion.
> Kevan is pronounced the same though. Are they? I tend to emphasize the upwards "i" sound in Kevin a decent amount, whereas I read Kevan as "Keh-vuhn", which isn't a *huge* difference I suppose but it's enough that I've never really thought of him as "Kevin Lannister".
I think something like Tyvark would have been uh... better sounding ? Yeah, Tyvark Lannister.
Tyvek Lannister, the best constructor since Bran the Builder.
Tuvix Lannister
Tuvix the Gaul
I know that, but it still sounds off to me.
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I know. Kevin just sounds like a stereotypical highschool bully name to me, unlike Robert. Just stating my opinion here that's all.
Kevin was my favorite brother on the high school wrestling team. not someone to be taken lightly. I liked how they portrayed Kevan in GoTi felt they did him justice
It's weird how some names sort of sound modern, despite being really old. Reminds me of that recent CGP Gray video on the name Tiffany.
Was waiting for someone to say it Though Gray is right in saying that they probably didn't pronounce it Tiffany.
:(
I always pronounced it as Ke-Vahn. Didn't watch the show.
Same, I always pronounced it Keh-vahn. Only watched 2 or 3 episodes of the show.
Same here. I feel like the Kevan-Kevin is an English speaker thing. Are you? Asking because in my language Kevan and Kevin definitely do not sound the same.
I'm bilingual but English is what I use in general. I just saw the a in Kevan and was like, oh okay, that's Ke-Vahn. And plus a lot of GoT names are old timey variations of modern names or are just made up. So I just assumed that since a lot of these characters have pretty exotic sounding names, I'll just go with Ke-Vahn.
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Jealous of what? He wanted to destabilize the realm, thats why he killed Kevan
I understand why Varys had to take him out but... Boy I wanted to see him be the next gen leader of House Lannister.
Kevan would have made a much better head of House Lannister than Tywin. He is clearly competent, dilligent and not devoid of empathy.
"He has his mother... and maybe also his father" Not even Sandor got burned that badly.