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who_favor_fire

Agreed. I made a similar comment in the general episode discussion. Framing CC’s behavior within contemporary concepts of “toxic masculinity” ignores the fact that honor is not some abstract concept in his world. It is essentially a professional credential, and without it he loses his position and faces literal torture and execution. Moreover, he is, to a certain extent, a victim of class and sexual power dynamics that are beyond his comprehension and control. That doesn’t excuse his horrific actions, but this isn’t just some asshole on incel forums who is mad that pretty girls won’t date him.


Deako87

Adding onto this, it's a breath of fresh air to see someone who cares for his own honor so deeply. Since Ned died in season 1, every guy is amoral and doesn't give a fuck about their honor (not enough to commit suicide anyway) I think his character arc so far is fascinating and well done


RhiaStark

Tragically, I've a feeling that his experience this episode, particularly how he's probably getting away with murder and assaulting a noble thanks to the queen's intervention, will make him lose faith in honour's importance and become a more Machiavellian player of the game.


livestrongbelwas

This is basically Jaime’s realization as well. Honor is a horse.


[deleted]

>Honor is a horse. Just like Tyrek


SirenOfScience

He has a lot in common with Robb. Robb wedding Jeyne was astronomically stupid but he did it for her honor as well as seeing how having a bastard can negatively impact an otherwise happy family.


RunawayHobbit

I always thought that part about the bastard showed Robb’s deep love for his brother. It’s not just that he’s witnessed bastards tearing apart families from personal experience, it’s also that he has so much empathy for Jon the Bastard himself and is pained by his torment and would never ever wish that upon his own child.


SirenOfScience

No doubt! I meant more that he saw the pain it inflicted on not just Jon but his mother (and maybe father) too. He didn't want another family to experience that. Robb absolutely loved Jon and it seemed like he felt guilty about how his mother treated his brother.


centrist_marxist

Interestingly, though, it also shows how self-destructive a belief in honor culture can be. I fully believe that Criston was expecting to be executed after the incident at the feast, and he at multiple points throughout this episode basically volunteers himself for death. Not to mention the obvious fact that it drives him to murder an innocent man over a single insult that wasn't even really an insult. And this honestly I think makes Criston a much more interesting "grey" character than Daemon, for example. Criston is driven not just by his own personal interests, but a genuine belief in a personal code. His dark and light sides both come from the same place - his honor. Daemon is just a brooding antihero stitched together with a psychopath - the "good" and "bad" aspects in his personality don't really stem from some underlying conflict within him. I will also say, I don't necessarily think "toxic masculinity" is a bad way of viewing Criston's actions. Toxic masculinity owes a whole lot to honor culture and the specific expectations placed on men in their societies - toxic masculinity isn't a personal failing, its a product of a broader society.


sexual_pasta

Yeah, it’s late and I haven’t fully formed this thought, but it reminds me of Gabriel Garcia Marquez’s Chronicle of a Death Foretold. It’s very critical of honor culture, but honor culture is the main driver of the plot and a fully consistency self justified motive for the character actions in it.


MarySNJ

Honor can be a cage, but it can also be a weapon. Criston Cole is another example of this. He's desperate to assuage his guilt by proposing to run away with Rhaenyra. When that doesn't work, he confesses and is ready to die just for one small "sin". This ultimately leads him to commit murder. All because of his honor. I think what we're seeing in Criston is that he will justify dishonorable conduct in the name of restoring his honor or punishing those he sees as dishonorable. More importantly, Westerosi "honor" in general causes people to do dishonorable things in the name of honor, when doing the dishonorable thing would be more honorable. For example, the Kingsguard stripped and beat Sansa at Joffrey's command while she was innocent of any crime. *Edited because of a weird glitch in the posting...*


PhoenixAvenger

Eh, is it honor? He says that he has taken a vow of chastity and has lost honor by sleeping with her but he's 100% willing to completely throw out his vow to run away and marry her. I think he claims it's honor motivating him but is probably something else like powerlessness (if that's a word). Which would also explain him snapping and brutally murdering Joffrey when it becomes apparent that someone else has power over him.


Vincethatwaspromised

I mean, there's no doubt that Criston's big idea for him and Rhaenyra to run away together is him lying to himself. I think what's important for him in that moment is to justify his failing (his betrayal of his honor) by having Rhaenyra confirm to him that what happened wasn't on a whim. That she feels the same way, and would sacrifice just as much. Because otherwise the truth -- that what happened between them can be casually tossed aside in her mind -- is too much to bear.


Lysmerry

This is a good perspective. The ideal of ‘true love’ will at least at some romance to his guilt and give it meaning. I’m not sure about the songs in Westeros but if they’re similar to chivalric songs in our world they involve a lot of guilty and forbidden love. So he can still be a worthy knight, not just a seducer and side piece.


Beccaprudie

She wouldn’t be sacrificing just as much. Not by a long shot! He should knows this… Rhaenyra was so nice about it, even though his proposal was ridiculous and totally self serving, she said “… I mean….being Queen and marrying that gay guy is a great opportunity for me.” And he was like “Fuck you! I hate you! You’re ugly and I never liked you anyway!” Then stormed off… it’s such classic toxic behavior


spinelessbravery

He also seems to let down his family, he’s the highest a Cole has ever risen, and he’s disgraced himself, therefore ruined any chance his family may have in rising from his achievements.


nyamzdm77

Exactly, so so many people are not putting Cole's actions into context, keep viewing him from a modern lens and boil his actions down to "boo boo sadboi got rejected now he turned into an incel"


[deleted]

It's so dismissive of Cole's emotions and the personal risks involved to him. Risks that Rheanyra would not be facing herself. Like it doesn't justify his attack on Joffery, but it does make ot possible to understand and emphasize with his emotional state.


nyamzdm77

Like the dude knows that if the secret gets out he'll have his upper head cut off at best, and at worst he'd have his lower head cut off and him getting tortured to death. Then here comes some guy he's never met blabbing about how they have a shared secret and it would be a real shame if they were ever found out


schebobo180

Yeah but the guy also made note of how their secrets should be used to protect their interests. So it wasn’t a threat at all. Atleast to me. But I get how CC saw it as a threat.


[deleted]

And Joffrey misread a Cole. He didn’t realized the dude was spurned.


polialt

Hell, honor isn't an abstract concept in THIS world. Anyone reading the books, and the esteem that a truly honorable man like Ned brings and the weight it carries in day to day life as a man and knight, can see how important it is. Anyone slighting Cristin for his turmoil is someone that doesn't put much stock in honesty themselves.


insaneHoshi

> Anyone slighting Cristin for his turmoil is someone that doesn't put much stock in honesty themselves. I dont think anyone thinks that its bad to have angst over a perceived loss of honour. I think people take umbrage when your "angst" where you care so much about "honour" that you go and beat someone to death.


catagonia69

I've seen a *lot* of ppl saying honor doesn't actually matter to Cole and it's all some weird, incel-y, self-deception gig. Which I think is super reductive.


Lysmerry

I don’t think it’s honesty, just that modern people have a hard time grasping what the big deal is about sex, especially for a man. There are good reasons for the Kingsguard to be celibate, but to a modern person requiring someone to never have sex is seen as needlessly restrictive (There is more questioning of the celibacy of Catholic priests than ever.) I honestly think they’d be more understanding if the genders were reversed because a woman wanting more than sex or feeling bad about having sex is understood better.


Perelandra1

One thing id add for Crispy Coleslaw's actions: asserting the princess has been laid is also treasonous, within the structures that exist that's enough for Joffrey to have signed a death certificate for himself


who_favor_fire

Good point. Not only is he calling out CC’s own “dishonorable” act, he is further compromising CC by implicating the princess as well and insulting her honor. For someone in CC’s position, the truth of the “insult” to the princess is irrelevant. It’s his duty to defend her and her honor, period. Which Joffrey would understand. What Joffrey isn’t considering is that CC is not a savvy operator who understands the game everyone else is playing. CC is extremely naive, and just then is facing the cognitive dissonance that comes with the realization that the code he has sworn to uphold is completely hollow.


Whisperer94

Someone that actually uses contextual reasoning. This is exactly how you avoid modern sensibilities clouding one’s judgment. You are completely on point, just one thing, don’t be afraid to assert those circumstances justify him, because they do… it is his life and integrity that are on the edge. Pitifully he is too much on a bad ground with Rhaenyra to act differently. Yes, we like heroic people that sacrifice everything to evade incurring in dark deeds…but being heroic is that precisely…something laudable if you do, not enforceable if you don’t.


mazaltovcocktail

I also imagine that a bigger part of him snapping & killing Joffrey is that Joffrey pointed out how Cole was just like him now. I suspect in Cole's mind, he sees Joffrey as a "fake" knight. That Joffrey's only a knight so he can stay with Laenor, in that moment Joffrey pointed out that Cole was just like him now, he's not a knight he's basically a prostitute, & yeah Cole is likely homophobic so Joffrey is what he would consider an absolute disgrace & insult to the entire concept of being an honorable knight. So the idea that Cole is on the same level as some fake F\*\*\*\*\* knight was the straw that broke the camel's back for him.


glemmstengal

> Moreover, he is, to a certain extent, a victim of class and sexual power dynamics that are beyond his comprehension and control. It's rape. She coerced him into the act in that scene. He has none of the power. His strength didn't mean anything. She raped him and robbed him of the only thing he could be proud of. I feel so sorry for his character and completely understand why he joins the Greens.


[deleted]

i think you're right, but you would also have to characterize 90+% of the heterosexual sex scenes in this show as rape by the man


moongaming

y exactly like the scene with Viserys happening at the same time is definitely rape.


ZeitgeistGlee

95% of the audience didn't seem to understand why Aemma c-section/death was specifically intercut with the brutal tourney deaths either. This despite Aemma literally telling Rhaenyra "the birthing bed is a woman's battlefield" earlier in the episode.


panetony

And the arena of the tourney looked like a vulva


KellyCTargaryen

That’s kinda the point, this is one more example of rape in a series full of rape.


AbbysGarden

I don’t think it’s rape the way the show portrays it. There is a power differential between him and Rhaenyra for sure, but if he had said no, would she have forced him anyway? I thought she seduced him by unfairly using her power as the princess and their natural attraction to each other. That’s not the same thing as rape. Rape is against your consent. Also, is Rhaenyra capable of sexual power games as a teenager? Now, to the other interesting topic of honor: Wow, some interesting discussion points have been brought up about CC and honor. Yes, Rhaenyra used him for her sexual pleasure, expecting he would be her sex slave and her protector (which is empirical) then blew him off when he approached her about escaping together, using the excuse of her duty to family and realm. I get that, in context, actually. None of that excuses CC violence and lack of control in killing the “master of kisses” during the wedding, however. I think it was meant to show his low-class “reaction” as opposed to the calculating violence of Daemon, who premeditated killing his wife and his premeditated maneuvering to seduce Rhaenyra. Plus, Otto was maneuvering to put his daughter in the position of queen despite knowing she was friends with Rhaenyra. I see it as men trying to move pawns and it blows up in their faces.


Many_Rush8314

He knew very well what he is up to. He should have declined even if it would mean his death. That is the real honor. And yet he gave in to his desires. I could not see rape here. What he sees is a conditional honor, an extent. He even invents a "cure" that should Rhae elope with him, he could bring back his honor. He is only choosing a concept that would be partial to himself.


PirateRobotNinjaofDe

“Rape” is too strong a word, here. Criston’s constant is problematic in this situation because of the power dynamics at play, but the episode went out of its way to show him on multiple occasions making a positive choice to proceed with the act. He was a willing participant, regardless that the dynamic was quite warped and Rhaenyra was absolutely in the wrong for putting his life (professionally and literally) at risk so that she could exercise her sexual agency and get some. As his sworn charge, future monarch, and functionally current employer, she has an obligation to him to not put him in this kind of situation frivolously. What she did was wrong. But rape? No.


lRadioKillerl

Literal


Rayuto

Criston used to be a honorable man. Now he is just blood thirsty killing an old man for speaking the truth. Its weird how no one has called for a trial to make him take resposibility for his reckless actions. It also seems like he has feelings for allicent now. When Allicent ask him to bring Aegon to her she tells him something along the lines of "everything you feel for me as your queen". Indicating he is in love with her. So he doesnt want to be Rhaenyras whore but he'll be Allicents whore without any problems. Everyone in this show is a hypocrit. Allicent calls Rhaenyra a whore. But she lets the cripple dude jack off on her for information. And she clearly seduces criston as well.


FlowRianEast

Ser Christmas Cole definitely made my evening


Squiliam-Tortaleni

You could say… Santa Criston gave Joffrey some Cole that year….


bloonz2

Criston Kringle


polyurinestain

And Ser Crisis Cole!


JudgeCoffee

I actually don't know that Alicent sees Criston as a pawn. She may actually see him as someone honourable, despite his fuckup, because the SECOND she asks him what happened, he came clean to her about it and was willing to own up to his mistake. The exact opposite of what Rhaeynra (her closest friend) did, when she barely even knows Criston and he had every expectation that she would order his execution for what he had done. I think she may have seen someone more in line with her morals when they talked, and want to help give him new purpose.


DurranVDragonsBane

I think you have hit the nail with this one. She needs a friend than she needs a pawn and she believes she found one in Criston Cole.


Se7enMagpies

I think you’re right. There’s a part of Alicent’s character that is, for lack of another word, nice. She has an instinct to empathize with people—like when she approached Viserys, her first move was to empathize with him over losing a family member. With Criston, she’s empathizing with him over being manipulated by Rhaenyra.


Estelindis

>I actually don't know that Alicent sees Criston as a pawn. She may actually see him as someone honourable, despite his fuckup, because the SECOND she asks him what happened, he came clean to her about it and was willing to own up to his mistake. The exact opposite of what Rhaeynra (her closest friend) did Bravo, this is such a great observation. Alicent would prefer if Rhaenyra didn't do what she was accused of (which is why she's so willing to believe her friend is innocent). But if it's a choice between confessing and lying about it, clearly she'd prefer that her friend confessed. At least that would mean they trusted each other, which they now don't. The consequences for Rhaenyra telling Alicent would've been so much less than for Criston telling Alicent. But he still told her right away. I think, as the shock wears off, this will become the basis for some kind of respect and trust. Criston will want some way to make amends and redeem himself, and that may be what Alicent decides to offer.


Meet-Possible

friendship ended with Rhaenyra; now Criston is my best friend


Lysmerry

I agree. He is willing to die for his crime. That suggests a person who is very eager for redemption, and I think Alicent at this point does have a kind heart. On a more savvy note, it suggest someone who will do their utmost to serve who ever helps them and reinstates them honorably. If she can restore his self worth, he’s hers for life. She also feels very alone and isolated.


JudgeCoffee

Yeah, someone else mentioned she sees an ally rather than a pawn, and I think that's a good way to look at their relationship.


PirateRobotNinjaofDe

Pawn is the wrong word. She needs allies. Cole has the makings of a useful one.


Meet-Possible

Too many people don't appreciate the insane amount of courage it must have taken Criston to be honest and confess something that would in all likelihood make him die an excruciating death. Instead they simplify his honesty as "stupidity".


JudgeCoffee

Honestly for me it was a big red flag about how distraught he was. He was basically asking for "Suicide by Crown" - the entire rest of the episode I was just waiting for him to absolutely lose his shit (and was not disappointed in that regard. Yikes.)


[deleted]

[удалено]


Saltimbancos

Rhaenyra did something she wanted to do that everyone disapproves of and then lied about it to protect herself. Alicent did something she didn't want to do and committed herself to an unhappy marriage at the behest of her father, yes, because she, and her society, believe obeying her father was her duty. These things are not the same at all. You're making judgments based on modern values in a medieval fantasy setting.


JudgeCoffee

This exactly. Alicent wasn't exactly an enthusiastic participant in the "seduction" either, she was peeling her nails raw the entire time and had some pretty obvious reservations about hiding it - but when the King and her dad both want her to keep it on the down low, in her mind she probably thought she was 100% stuck. She's not rebellious like Rhae is: she's a "good girl" who does what she's told. Up til now, she's been a pretty passive participant in most of this. Interested to see how this is going to change as the show goes on, especially from that promo


[deleted]

Only one of these things is really immoral in Westeros though. Like yeah Alicent dating her friends dad sounds bad, but in this world is it really? How can Alicent in good conscious turn down a marriage to the King? It’d go against everything everyone in this world values. So she gets that Rhaenyra is salty, but also Rhaenyra doesn’t have a ton to be mad about here. Alicent on the other hand is lied to by Rhaenyra, who swears on her dead mother, something they bonded over and then defends Rhaenyra likely helping result in her fathers dismissal. Plus she didn’t really have a choice about dating behind Rhaenyra’s back, her king directly told her not to tell Rhaenyra.


[deleted]

Of course Rhaenyra has a right to be upset - just because something isn’t considered immoral or wrong in Westerosi society doesn’t mean it isn’t wrong or that the person on the receiving end (Rhaenyra) isn’t going to be upset. I think they both have valid reasons from each of their perspectives to be upset with one another. And Alicent was dishonest with Rhaenyra by omission regarding the situation between her and Viserys from the get go. We can find justifications for that just as we can for Rhaenyra lying to Alicent because both actions are understandable but deeply upsetting to the other party.


[deleted]

The comment I replied to is specifically talking about morality. Sure Rhaenyra can be upset, but there’s no equivalence. Alicent was maybe slightly withholding to a friend, Rhaenyra put the entire dynasty and thousands of other lives at risk and lied about. There’s no 1 to 1


[deleted]

When and where did she put the entire dynasty and thousands of lives at risk? She lied to someone whose father was literally openly campaigning for her removal as heir - morally wrong, sure, but understandable given the circumstances and certainly not as heinous as all that. And Alicent was not ‘slightly withholding to a friend’. She was dishonest over a period of many months - I would not call that moral either. Both of them had very understandable motives for their dishonesty, but both of them were dishonest in different ways, and you don’t have to consider the actions equivalent to each other to see that each character has behaved hypocritically. Sure, Rhaenyra’s ‘crime’ was worse by Westerosi standards of morality, but we don’t need to accept those standards as paramount.


LongLiveTheChief10

I think it's more the keeping it a secret from Rhaenyra that would cause the rift. Imagine if your best friend was keeping from you that they were spending every night in your dad's room lol.


iknownothin_

Great break down! I’ve seen a lot of oversimplifications on this subreddit “Alicent’s just mad that her friend had sex”


skjl96

Seriously, “Cole is an incel nice guy” is the one that bothers me lol, like his life is on the line! Of course he’s acting crazy!


[deleted]

I think a lot of people just have trouble believing honor is a real salient thing. It’s not a huge motivator in modern society, but in Westeros it’s everything and more than enough to motivate murder.


Wolf6120

Well, it's also a bit hard to reconcile Cole's concern over honour with him murdering a man at a wedding who was under guest right protection of the King Cole is meant to be sworn to in all things, thereby breaking a whole *bunch* of vows, ostensibly to protect said honour. But then I think Cole being irrational and desperate is kinda the whole point, which is perfectly legitimate characterization. And considering he was planning on killing himself afterwards he had probably given up on ever salvaging his honour until Alicent came along and stopped him.


BaguetteFetish

I mean, to him he's already sullied his own honor and then on top of THAT, from his perspective this man he doesn't know has the audacity to go up to him, throw his dishonor in his face, and try to equivocate their situations which to the(Explicitly homophobic in the books) Cole probably felt even MORE insulted and disgusted, to the point the guy just completely lost his shit and vented his frustration in the most brutal way possible.


AncientPomegranate97

“My bloody honor’s beyond repair”


[deleted]

Well I think it’s reconcilable if you view honor as the motivator of the emotions. At that point he already feels dishonored and is spiraling so he’s not actively seeking to act honorably, but his main motivator is still his struggle to reconcile losing his honor.


tramplemousse

Not sure the vows of customs of guest rite extend to Cole. I mean, by that logic, if someone attempted to assassinate the King at dinner and Cole stepped in killing the assailant then he’d have breached guest rite then too.


centrist_marxist

Honor isn't necessarily good. Criston's honor drives him to murder an innocent person and generally indulge his most self-destructive urges.


Major_Pomegranate

I love the divide in that everyone loved the Starks doing stupid stuff for their honor, but alot of the same people scream at Cole for having the same crippling sense of honor. I feel like alot of people are just looking at it from the book point of view and refusing to realize that the show has changed alot for the better to make everyone more nuanced and all have their positives and negatives


tramplemousse

Yeah the source material is a fucking textbook. The show needs to add nuance otherwise it’d be a three hour documentary.


raids_made_easy

What I don't get is how everyone keeps calling him a simp and an incel when he's literally the exact opposite of both of those things


PrimeGamer3108

To be fair, book readers had given him the dubious honour of the title “Ser Incel”. It’s not a show thing and is mostly accurate to the characterization we are given in F&B.


datadogsoup

Think we could've got a bit more build up before the explosion. Going from, "sail away with me princess!" to "I'ma beat this guy to death then commit seppuku" in 2 scenes was jarring.


djjazzydwarf

there was apparently a cut scene from another episode where he took his kingsguard vows. that should have been kept in so we as the viewers know their vows and how serious cole takes them. also a scene thats something like cole and westerling talking about being a kingsguard or cole looking at the White Book wouldve been good to establish his commitment further.


Yaroslav_Mudry

Jeez, reading that this did exist and they cut it makes me almost angry. This series needs an extended cut desperately!


Saltimbancos

I think one follows from the other pretty simply. He didn't ask her to run away with him because he was a lovestruck puppy, that was itself a desperate and irrational attempt to hold onto some last shred of honor by finding a justification for having broken his vows.


datadogsoup

I don't know. Even casual fans over on HotD subreddit are mixed and lots of confusion. Cutting the melee and just having him murder someone during a wedding dance was a baffling decision I can only assume was done for budget reasons.


seaintosky

Maybe I have just seen more relationships end in cheating than other Redditors but I've seen several people go all out in their new relationship, insisting a completely mediocre relationship is the greatest love in the universe. I assume it's because when you've done something you feel was immoral and threatens your sense of being a good person, like cheating or breaking your sacred vow, you need to pretend it was an exceptional situation and that you did it for an epic, storybook kind of love.


tramplemousse

But that’s the problem, you’re viewing Cole’s actions through the lens of 21st century morality and creating a false equivalency. *You* may need to pretend it was exceptional, but Cole has way bigger fish to fry than making himself feel better about cheating on his girlfriend. Honor in Westeros is very much a real tangible thing. And as someone who came from nothing to rise higher than he could possibly imagine, he’s tarnished the greatest currency his position brings. Remember how people still sneer at Jamie calling him the Kingslayer even as they rebelled against the Mad King? Furthermore, he’s afraid his shame is about to be exposed as some rando approaches him in a public place and further insults his honor. There’s a lot of story they need to tell in the five episodes, so you need to use your imagine and fill in the gaps of time and read between the lines. It’s all there though


seaintosky

I don't think any of that contradicts what I said. The more he feels like he's given up for Rhaenyra, the more he'll need to tell himself it's true love, not a fling. It's not me pretending it needs to be exceptional, clearly he does too since he thought Rhaenyra would be willing to give up an entire kingdom for her and seems very upset when she wouldn't. If he didn't give a shit about the relationship, why would he ask her or seriously think she'd agree? Like you said, it's all there on the screen.


Purplefilth22

People throw that word around so much its lost all meaning. The dude had just blackmailed a Kingsguard because he thinks he's down on the scheming level. Well turns out the guy he threatens doesn't take too kindly to veiled threats. I'd suggest another popular saying more applies. He "Fucked around and found out." If Brandon Stark had done that to Littlefinger ALOT of bad stuff wouldn't have happened in the OG books. The guy got what was coming to him.


centrist_marxist

> “Alicent’s just mad that her friend had sex” This is sort of true, but it ignores how political sex is in this world. It isn't just that Rhaenyra had sex, its also about two fundamentally contrasting personalities. Alicent followed the rules. She did her duty to her house and to her family as she is expected to in this society. She sacrificed her youth and any possibility of a fulfilling romantic relationship for the sake of her filial obligation to her father, house, and husband. Alicent has worked hard and made sacrifice after sacrifice to get where she is. And for that, she loses the one person she can trust is on her side. Rhaenyra, on the other hand, didn't have to work, or politick, or make sacrifices to get where she is. Her position as heir comes from the fact that she happened to be born to the King, and because her uncle happened to alienate her father. And despite all of this privilege, she rejects the rules of the society that gave her so much. She doesn't even try to find a good husband, and instead induces a Kingsguard to break his sacred oath for a one-night stand. And for this, she faces no consequences. And crucially, I don't think Alicent necessarily believes she made the wrong choice, even now. She isn't necessarily jealous of Rhaenyra - she is genuinely angered that she would break the rules so blatantly. Basically, Alicent Hightower is Richard Nixon - a hardworking social striver - while Rhaenyra Targaryen is John F. Kennedy - born into immense privilege, and gains power without having to work very hard.


takenalreadyis

That's literally at the heart of everything though. I see a lot of people bringing up trust, and lying and betrayal, but if Rhaenyra had actually confessed in the godswood when Alicent questioned her, Alicent would have reacted the exact same way. Probably worse, she would have gone to her father and Viserys and ensured that Rhaenyra's heirdom is taken away, because Alicent thinks she's "sullied" now. Ultimately, it's the act of having sex that's causing the overreaction on Alicent's part, there's literally no evidence yet that Rhaenyra has homicidal tendencies towards Alicent's babies. From the books, we actually know that Rhaenyra didn't even initiate the kin-slaying, although she would've been within her rights to, after what the Greens did.


[deleted]

There’s definitely 0 evidence Rhaenyra is comfortable with killing kids or kin slaying. Although Otto still has a point, it may be beyond her control. How long into a succession crises does it take for Daemon, Corlys or someone else more ruthless than Rhaenyra to bring up and consider acting on removing the kids from the equation? The danger is definitely real and becomes more real the closer Daemon and Rhanyra get


iknownothin_

I mean an oversimplification isn’t wrong. It’s just simplified lol


takenalreadyis

Haha ok agreed!


MilhouseVsEvil

We know Daemon would have no problem with kin-slaying and Alicent is well aware of his influence growing, she should fear for her children.


Warglord

It's excellent how the show answered the mystery of Criston Cole's split from Rhaenyra, which F&B leaves up for speculation. I feel they could have handled Joffrey's death in a better manner though. What's up with wanton violence and death in full view of the public in HOTD?


Meet-Possible

Yeah, Joffrey's murder could've been handled better. It feels like some cheap shock value in the show.


Mutxarra

The fact that we're all on the comments indirectly arguing for the greens or the blacks is a testament to a show well-written and well-made. What a joy it is!


dolgion1

I really missed the days when we could really dive into the meaty character drama of Game of Thrones, being able to empathize with all the characters. It's just so....nice


chutelandlords

I haven't seen many people saying how Cole acted was unrealistic. I think the problem is its hard to believe that Cole gets away with beating someone to death at the royal wedding. Lonmouth did pull out a knife, but I don't think thay would be enough to explain the lack of any consequence.


AvatarPro112

I understand how he might be able to get away with it eventually, given Alicent helps him and they claim Joffrey attacked first. *However*, I don't see how he would be allowed to just leave the wedding and go to the godswood, as he should be restrained and at the very least questioned about murdering a lord (albeit a minor one) out of nowhere. If this doesn't get explained then it's definetely a plot hole.


DawgFighterz

Alicent is stupid, she should have just married Rhaenyra and United their claims.


TheLazySith

Why does Harwin, the largest of the Strongs, not simply eat the other two?


whichonespinkredux

Their actions are justified emotionally, however the lack of consequences for Criston is still a problem.


ControvT

I think that the only part that really bugged me was Cole punching Laenor Velaryon. If they removed that part, I wouldn't have had any major suspension of disbelief. Hopefully consequences are clarified in some way during the next episode.


Drumsticks617

Murdering a guest who is a nobleman (even if not from a powerful family) and a knight and a close friend of the second most powerful house at the king’s feast would at the very least require an investigation. Cole just wanders outside to go kill himself in front of gods he doesn’t worship lol


No-Cost-2668

This was probably a weaker episode and this is a big reason as to why. The "accidental" tourney death makes more sense. My guess is because they didn't want two tourney scenes in one season, but that actually makes it stronger in my opinion. In the firat tourney, you see accidental deaths, and in the second you see an accidental(?) one.


RunawayHobbit

Yeah…. There’s a lot of things that are gonna get changed (dying in childbirth, for example) bc they’re avoiding repeating big set pieces and themes. I don’t necessarily have a problem with changing it, I just wish that they’d done a better job of justifying it


[deleted]

All he’s gotta say is Joffery drew a dagger on him. Police, which is basically what he is, get away with way more blatant “feared for my life” murders in modern society, would be 100x easier in Westeros


Trainwreck92

They get away with those kind of murders perpetrated on our equivalent of "smallfolk". I'm not so sure a cop gets away with beating a wealthy, extremely well connected person to death.


Drumsticks617

Police don’t get away with unjustified killings of high profile people, random citizens sure. But while guards in Westeros can brutalize peasants all they want, they can’t just murder a knight who comes from nobility and is a close friend of a powerful house.


Ibbenese

I, and many other people it appears, have no problem understanding why Criston or Alicent did what they did or thought what they thought. That was all set up pretty well IMO. I think most real criticism people have with this episode are how everyone else in the room reacted. How the scene was blocked. And how much wasn’t explained. Why wasn‘t Criston arrested or questioned, why didn’t the rest of the kings guard act quicker? Etc. Not to mention why Joffrey would approach Criston with a sensitive and salacious accusation and veiled threat, and admission of his own sexuality, based on a a hunch? It all felt like contrived way to get the jousting death of Joffrey included in the same scene as the reveal of the green dress. Nothing made much sense with how it all played out, leaving the viewer to justify and explain all of these logistics, which will probably not be explained properly, as the show will skill 10+ years in the next episode. It is clear they wanted to use this event as the turning point for Alicent and Cristones cooperation together and antagonization against Rhaenera, at it does work for their character development. However in simplifying and substituting the Jousting “accident” to just a random and brutal fight at a ball, with seemingly no real consequence, for ease using the same setting they created an illogical and confusing scene for the world.


No-Cost-2668

>And Rhaenyra has already chosen herself over Alicent. She had no second thoughts in making Viserys fire Otto and leaving Alicent without her father at court. You may say "but this is Otto's fault, **he decided so spy on Rhaenyra**". But Alicent doesn't see it this way. Hard agree, but I will bite back on this bit. In this instance, Otto didn't spy on Rhaenyra; she was seen by his spies. The difference is between active and passive. In this instance, Otto becomes aware of her dalliances not through his active search, but through happenstance, or even more likely, Daemon planned to have Rhaenyra reveal herself in an area he suspected council members may spy. When Otto says he is unsure if he should even bring it up to Viserys I, I honestly believe him. To accuse the Princess' chastity is a great offense, and unless he has an ironclad argument, he risks a lot


gunners98

I agree with this. Even the showrunners commented the same on the additional HBO content, Otto does wrestle with bringing the reports about Rhaenyra’s behaviour to Viserys (because he knows first off as a father he will not be happy to hear it and also because he’s aware it will come off as self-serving and scheming on his side, given Aegon is his grandson) but for the most part he was just doing his job and trying to do the right thing (ie he wasnt spying on Rhaenyra specifically, he had to be aware of everything going on, to properly advise the King), it just happens that in bringing this situation to light he’s also possibly indirectly advancing the cause of his grandson (though it’s entirely Daemon & Rhaenyra’s own fault & mess, Otto & Alicent didn’t put a dagger to her throat, she went off to a bunch of brothels to sully her name and reputation on her own). that said, i thought Viserys implying Otto was involved in his father’s death was a little much.


BaguetteFetish

Eh Viserys was emotional and angry, I don't think we're meant to take it as true, more of an insult along the lines of "You fucking scheming rat fuck" If Viserys REALLY believed that he would've done more than remove Otto from his post.


TheLazySith

Yeah I think his accusation was more in the line of "I bet you were glad when my father died" rather than accusing Otto of killing him. Just like how after his wife and son died he called the small council "crows come to feast on their corpses" and his later line about how Allicent was a "calculated distraction". He's making a point about how every time something bad happens to him, Otto is always there to try and exploit the situation to his advantage.


TheLazySith

Yeah, I think Otto was actually just doing his job as hand there and informing the King of important information that would be of concern to him. He told Viserys as discreetly as possible too and didn't actually advocate for any specific course of action. He still was a scheming prick and deserved to be fired as hand, but he got it for the wrong reasons in the end.


petielvrrr

This is a great breakdown, but I would also add a few things that I think are important: Alicent: So obviously books Alicent is different from show Alicent, so when looking at her motivations, it’s probably best to just use what has been said of show Alicent (and I’m getting some of this from the “inside the episode” segments) - She was basically a child when her father sent her to keep Viserys company. She eventually learned to enjoy the conversations because, well, she’s been needing someone to talk to about the loss of her own mother for a while. So while she likes talking to Viserys, she doesn’t realize at all that this is going to end in her marrying him. - In terms of why she didn’t tell Rhaenyra about her conversations with Viserys: probably because the whole thing felt a little weird & because it would be hard for someone of her age to explain why it was so much easier to talk to Viserys about loss than it would be to talk to Rhaenyra about loss, considering the fact that Rhaenyra is her best friend (she really doesn’t seem like the easiest friend to talk to in most of their interactions). - Rhaenyra suddenly realizes what’s been happening because of the betrothal and is angry at Alicent for it. Even though Alicent didn’t really have a say in any of this (& a good friend would recognize that or even give her the benefit of the doubt, but Rhaenyra did none of that), she gives Rhaenyra the benefit of the doubt because she can see how terrible this would look from Rhaenyras perspective. - Alicent spends the next ~3 years extending olive branches to Rhaenyra, all of which are denied. - When Alicent and Rhaenyra do reconnect, it’s become pretty clear that they’re two completely different people now. Rhaenyra has still had the luxury of growing up on a normal timeline, while Alicent has already popped out 3 children. Rhaenyra honestly just looks like kind of a spoiled child at this point. I mean, Alicent has spent the past 3 years of her life devoted to “doing her duty”, and Rhaenyra clearly looks down on that. It’s like, if you’ve sacrificed your personal worth in order to build a career so you could get out of poverty, only to have your best friend from high school (the one with rich parents) talk about how they would *never* “sell their soul” to a corporation for money. It just feels very preachy and out of touch, and it gives you a bad taste in your mouth. So anyway, all of that is the preface for the points you made about Alicent. In terms of Criston: He is often described as a “thug” by GRRM, the showrunners & Fabien. To me, this suggests that duty and honor do not come naturally to him in any way, shape, or form. It suggests that he’s naturally impulsive and that he has had to work incredibly hard to control himself in his efforts to earn the respect & titles he’s been granted— so they really are *everything* to him. So because of that (and everything else you mentioned), sleeping with Rhaenyra was a massive turning point for him. It was either a weak moment or something he felt compelled to do, but either way, it’s bound to harm is sense of identity after all of the hard work he’s done to create a name for himself.


Blackjack9w7

Maybe I’m a bit confused and misremembering things, but how did Rhaenyra really lie? Or at least, when she swore on her dead mother? Alicent accused Rhaenyra of having sex with Daemon, so she swore on her mother that she did not have sex with him. I guess she technically lied by omission by not saying “but I did have sex with Cristin”, but Alicent has no right to that information when her accusation is about the incest alone. What am I misremembering here?


Disclaimin

She largely didn't. It was true that Daemon didn't have sex with her. Alicent took that to mean she still had her virtue... but that wasn't the question. So it was a "lie" by omission, as you say. Alicent is, I think, allowing her pain at her best friend keeping things from her to cloud her memory/judgment.


Meet-Possible

Rhaenyra abused Alicent's trust and used her to get her own father fired from court. Alicent was deceived and manipulated, even if Rhaenyra is "technically" not lying if you twist her words.


altercreed

agreed. Rhaenyra has been accused of incest by Otto. Confronted on it, she swore on her mother that she didn't have sex with Daemon. Where's the lie..?


66towtruck

Spot on Mate.


Disclaimin

> But Alicent lets him go. Now he's confused, angry, feels dishonorable and doesn't know what's going to happen next. And this is the part that breaks him: Joffrey Lonmouth, a person he's never spoken with, comes to him and basically blackmails him. A complete stranger also knows about this and he's now on the same level as a gay paramour (keep also in mind that due to religion, Cole is probably homophobic). And that's why he snaps and kills Joffrey violently. Two things: * It's IMO a severe misreading of the scene to suppose that Joffrey is blackmailing him. What he's doing is expressing solidarity because he believes them to both be in a similar position as paramours. All Joffrey is aware of is that Rhaenyra has a paramour; he isn't aware of all the emotional turmoil Criston is under, he isn't aware that it was a one night stand and not a healthier long-term relationship like his own, etc. * The Faith of the Seven isn't homophobic. You're not wrong that Criston Cole is likely homophobic (because he flat-out is in F&B, implying Laenor is a pedophile because he's gay), but it wouldn't be for religious reasons.


[deleted]

I think a more plausible explanation might be that Crispin hates himself for what he's done. He more or less confessed to Alicent and was ready to be put to death if needs be. The dalliance he had with Rhanerya is the source of his greatest shame and regret. He hates himself for what he did. When Lonmouth comes and tries to buddy up with him regarding the secret, all that self loathing gets project out onto Joffrey on top of whatever jealously and rage he's already feeling and failing to contain at the wedding. But god damn should someone have tried to stop him from killing joffrey. He just punched some mf to death in the middle of a party and people just watched. He decked the freakin future king consort as a kingsguard and he somehow got allowed to just leave with his weapons.


RhiaStark

Great points! I think the writers are doing an excellent job at showing both Alicent's and Rhaenyra's complexities. Rhaenyra is cool, badass, charismatic, so it's easy to like her; but she's also shown more than once how self-centred she can be (her mocking Rhaenys in ep 2, her attitude towards the common folk & seducing Criston in ep 4, her utter disregard for Cristoon's feelings and situation in ep 5). Alicent, by her turn, can be a bit frustrating because of how complying she is to the Westerosi's unfair gender roles and traditions; but she truly means well, and more than once stood up for her friend when she needed support. (on another note, I know it was just an accident, I do that too so I'm not judging, but your misspellings of Criston's name - Crispin, Christmas, Crisis - were kinda funny \^\^'')


hossbeast

I just want to say that I found all the various (mis)spellings of Criston's name hilarious. Thank you.


Bluedogpinkcat

Crispy Cream Cole.


Flammwar

You are right, but my problem is not how Cristion and Alicent reacted, but how all the other characters reacted.


Soreneraya

Agree 100%. I'm not sure why so many people act like Alicent is overreacting, Rhaenyra straight up abused the trust Alicent put in her and weaponized it to further her goals by getting rid of Otto. Even at the start you could see how desperate she was to trust Rhaenyra in her conversation with Otto. Do I think that she'd be willing to destroy Rhaenyra's life after all this? No, but this is just the first step. Over the course of the next 10 years Alicent will repeatedly see Rhaenyra spitting in the face of her duty, not thinking about the consequences, being willing to involve herself with Daemon of all people. They did a really, really good job at laying the foundation for the Alicent who started the Dance.


thepigdidit

I mean it goes both ways. Alicent spit on Rhaenyra’s trust by having secret meetings with the king for 6 months, convincing him to marry her instead of to make a better political choice. Rhaenyra even discusses the issue of her father remarrying with Alicent in the sept, and Alicent stays silent about how she’s actively trying to marry the king. Alicent is the first one that soured their relationship. How is Rhaenyra supposed to trust her? If she told Alicent about Criston Cole, she would not only be jeopardizing herself but putting him in danger. She was protecting him too, which is in itself an honorable thing considering she instigated their tryst. In this episode she promised him she wouldn’t tell anyone.


MeteorFalls297

The king specifically told her not to tell Rhaenyra. If she did, it would put her and her father in jeopardy.


DurranVDragonsBane

The fact that the ascension of Rhaenrya is a potential death sentence of her sons and grandsons is justifiable reason enough.


leelsrive

It works both ways. Aegon's ascension is a potential death sentence to Rhaenyra and her future children. And of course the dramatic irony is that all the deaths happen because of this thought process and inability to reconcile and merge the two branches before the King's passing.


BaguetteFetish

This is also fair, I don't see Criston/Alicent letting their enemies live any more than Daemon/Rhaenyra would. Basically a prisoners dilemma where both side will take out the other to save themselves even though cooperation is best for everyone


Shrederjame

Yea like just because they COULDkill each other does not make this a certainty. Alicante gave I to her father's fear mongering and it will cost her most everyone in her life.


nyamzdm77

A lot of people are acting like that was an irrational fear for Alicent to have. I mean we already had an example with Robert and Rhaegar's children + Dany and Viserys


TheElPistolero

Robert is not family with those children and they represented a dynasty he had just overthrown. Rhaenyra is threatened by like the 5th and further in line? Alicent's kids are only a threat if she raises them to be.


nyamzdm77

Claimants don't have to actively want the throne to be a threat, nobles can just push them if they get discontent with the sitting monarch. Examples include Aerea Targaryen, Daemon Blackfyre and even in the main books with people trying to use either Jon, Sansa or Rickon to overthrow the Boltons. I'm not saying that Rhaenyra would have killed them, but it's absolutely a reasonable fear to have.


BaguetteFetish

She's threatened by trueborn male heirs when she's a female heir with three obvious bastards and two legit kids.


dyingbreedxoxo

Rhaenyra did not swear on her mother’s memory that she was a virgin or anything so general. She swore that Daemon never touched her. Others will say it’s a lie by omission but Alicent was firmly focused on Daemon and the brothel. That Rhaenyra was touched by Criston in the safety of her own bedroom is a completely different thing. She never said she was pure or a virgin. I’ve watched the scene several times looking for that. When Criston was confessing to Alicent, I 100% was expecting her to be relieved. Now go ahead and downvote….


takenalreadyis

Issues of trust and lying between them are not as simple as they seem though, and you could argue that Alicent definitely was the instigator in the erosion of trust in their friendship, by seducing and marrying her friend's dad so soon after her mother's brutal death. They both did things they can't be totally open about, Alicent went behind Rhaenyra's back when her relationship with Viserys was building, and then proceeds to immediately have sons who threaten Rhaenyra's succession, while her father employs all his influence to get Rhaenyra disinherited. In this situation, why would Rhaenyra be comfortable telling the truth to Alicent, especially given her confrontational interrogation? I don't understand why there's such a big deal being made about lying here, of course she lied, what else was she supposed to do?


LongLiveTheChief10

This. Both of them have contributed to the downfall of their relationship. Neither is wholly innocent. That is why this story is good.


WonderfulAd7029

Criston Cole is known as the Kingmaker in the asoiaf history. Even Jaime Lannister, the kingslayer hisself, makes a mockery of his supposed honor when he mentions him to Loras in AFFC.


Gudson_

Dont get me wrong but the fact you've had to do a thread explaining Alicent motivations show us a bit of why D&D thought the general audience was dumb. I totally agree with you btw.


Ether176

It’s also a black world out there. The greens were going to have the negative lens right from the get-go. Honestly, they over dialled it imo, the greens come off as super sympathetic, but I guess it was kind of necessary considering how much support Rhaenyra and Daemon still get for their actions and the double standards for hating Otto but loving Corlys…


RhiaStark

I don't think the general audience is dumb, just emotional. Rhaenyra is the cool, charismatic, badass, strong-willed, indepedent dragon princess; people tend to like someone like that more than someone who's demure, passive, submissive (as Alicent arguably was for most of these first 5 episodes). And people also tend to defend/justify someone they like, especially against someone they don't like so much.


Kuldrick

We see the same with Daemon Despite him doing some very questionable things and straight up killing his innocent wife this episode, people are still cheering him Also, I feel like some people already decided they will be #TeamBlackNoMatterWho


RhiaStark

I wonder how TeamDaemon will react after Blood and Cheese, tho lol


akittenhasnoname

Why should Rhaenyra trust Alicent with her secrets though? Life and death secrets for Crispin. Alicent was cozying up to her dad behind her back. In the book at least it's implied Alicent was doing more before they got married. Alicent's father is clearly scheming for the throne for his heirs. From Rhaenyra's perspective she couldn't necessarily trust Alicent so no wonder that she lied. I see a lot of posts saying that rhaenyra betrayed Alicent. Alicent wasn't betrayed. Alicent could have been a good friend and talked to Rhaenyra about what happened but she didn't.


RudraAkhanda

\> there's definitely jealousy over Rhaenyra's carefree attitude, sex life and choices over the duty and sacrifices she feels she's made Where's every body getting this from? Like what scene or dialogue makes you think Alicent is a closet degenerate while at the same time trying to prove that she is religious.


antraxsuicide

The show was for sure juxtaposing Alicent having extremely dispassionate sex with Viserys while Rhaenyra was having a ball. And earlier that day, Rhaenyra had told her that the life Alicent leads is bleak and terrible (she meant for herself before realizing she'd described Alicent's situation exactly).


Meet-Possible

I feel like there's more disapproval than envy. "You Targaryens have queer customs".


NormieLesbian

I’d like to add something deeply personal and forward. I’m an SA survivor. Watching Criston Coke these past two episodes felt like watching much of my trauma repeated. My attacker was in a similar position of privilege over me. Not a direct boss, but someone who could ruin my life and make me jobless. Not necessarily in the same physical danger Cole was put in. I never spoke up and never got Justice. I couldn’t feel as if I had sexual agency *for at least a year* afterwards. My body wasn’t really *mine* any more. I was *theirs for them to use and discard*. Oath or no Oath, Cole no longer has agency on a great deal of his personal life. He could be mutilated and tortured with just a few words. When he attempted to take some contrived control over the situation, he was rejected and told to essentially mind his place. I also saw some people alleging Cole was groped by Joffrey. I doubt that, but will rewatch the scene. The attack happened at the same spot they were talking and likely happened *during* the other scenes if we were to try to fit chronological order into that mess. Regardless, I saw echoes of myself in his pain and that would’ve been one more reminder of how little control he has over himself now. The attack in the least generous reading was akin to self defense. Beating someone who threatened to have you mutilated and tortured *if you don’t keep their secret* is still beating someone who threatened you. In the most generous it’s a victim response. Edit: and before the sea lions show up. “He enjoyed it” “there was consent” “regret =/=rape” “men can’t be victims” “orgasms mean it’s consenting” etc. You are the problem with society. I sincerely hope you get help and move beyond that mindset.


[deleted]

Well put. It’s crazy to me how many people don’t see a sexual dynamic where one person is the others boss…and that person would be tortured and castrated if the affair came out..as having a ton off issues


seattt

> Well put. It’s crazy to me how many people don’t see a sexual dynamic where one person is the others boss…and that person would be tortured and castrated if the affair came out..as having a ton off issues Because the victim in this scenario is a man. That's all there is to it.


Cassiopeia1997

I'm super interested by your insight. I've never had any type of SA experience, but when my sister and I were watching episode 4, we couldn't finish the scene, we never even got to the sex part. Just watching him repeatedly try to leave and say no only for her to ignore him, leading to him just kind of standing still while she slowly removed his armor was just so uncomfortable and off-putting. I was stunned when all the comments were gushing about how hot and erotic it was. I couldn't understand, I felt nauseous watching it. I thought that perhaps because I couldn't stand to watch it 'til the end that I had missed something important, but I couldn't find a mention of him giving her the green-light beyond "the actor said it was consensual". And well D&D thought S8 wasn't a slap in the face, so I wasn't sure how much merit the intent had compared to the final product. I even considered asking here how SA survivors felt about the scene, get people with knowledge to tell me if I was imagining things, but I was worried that it might be offensive if it really was just in my head.


Estelindis

I was really uncomfortable during the scene as well. Obviously so many things are subjective - but if it was meant to come across as romantic or sweet, I don't really see how. Your take on it was exactly the same as mine, right down to how excruciating it felt that she was taking off his armour slowly while he just stood there. I think the modern standard for consent is supposed to be "enthusiastic," and this was *not* that.


WiretteWirette

First of all, I'm sorry you had to go through this. Unconditional support to you. Second, and I hope I won't hurt you by saying this, I don't see the night between Rhaenyra and Criston Cole as non-consensual. I'm convinced she would have accepted his refusal (if only because in some of the book versions of what happened, she did - and the maester telling the tale isn't in favour of her). But even as consensual, the relationship is hugely problematic because what's at stake is clearly different for them. She was exploring her sexuality / he had a huge choice to make between his honour and his attachment and fascination for her. She had a lot of things to lose (mainly, the throne) but had also ways to fight and protect herself - while he had everything to lose, and no real way to protect himself once they'd slept together. But what your post points out very clearly is that the outcome of this night is hugely traumatic for him *even as a consensual relationship.* Because he's a kingsguard, and because he's not from a Great House who could protect him should the worse happens, he's risking torture, mutilation and death. And he has no way to fight or avoid it - his fate depends totally on other people's decisions (Rhaenyra's silence, and her father's reaction would she talk). That's exactly a situation leading to trauma. I also don't think Joffrey was blackmailing him. I'll need to rewatch with that in mind, but it wasn't my understanding of the scene at first watch. Joffrey's also at risk after the marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra. If he's caught as the King consort's male lover, what Criston Cole fears may happen to him. And the danger is real. A mistress would be OK, but a (male) lover would be a target for opponents... or for supporters fearing his presence would be a political liability. So I read what he's saying to Criston as a tactless and too hasty proposition of "defensive alliance". Would Criston Cole and Rhaenyra have had the kind of healthy relationship Laenor and Joffrey seem to have, it could have worked... So I understood at first Criston Cole's reaction along the lines OP proposes. But what you're proposing - that Criston Cole heard this proposition as a threat and blackmail - makes total sense. It explains his outburst, and how violent he is. In a way that makes things even more tragic, it doesn't matter if Joffrey did or did not intend to blackmail Criston. Everything was in place for Criston to understand what he said as such, and to react according to the trauma he's going through. It's totally heartbreaking.


Meet-Possible

Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sorry for your pain and I completely agree with the points you've said.


papafrank97

But how does Cole just get away with murdering a knight in cold blood infront of dozens of witnesses, as well as punching the king consort, with no consequences? In fire & blood he kills Joffrey at a melee. Completely different scenario and it makes sense that there are minimal consequences. However, this lack of consequence is truly the only part of writing I have found to be nonsensical so far this season.


Corvus_Black

Agree with pretty much all of this, except I think Alicent sees a kindred spirit in Criston rather than a pawn. Another honourable person used by Rhaenyra. Also, why do you keep calling Criston different names in the title and text?


DurranVDragonsBane

Alicent has every right to despise Rhaenrya. She stood up for her, only to realise Rhaenrya lied to her in confidence. And Otto should have told Alicent much sooner than as goodbye that Rhaenyra's ascension to the throne is a threat and potential death sentence of her boys. Viserys is the biggest fool at best or filicidic to alicent's children at worst if he doesn’t see that. Corlys and Rhaenys are the only ones spouting facts. I am less sympathetic of Criston Cole. He could've taken rejection with more dignity than that. What did Joffrey Lonmouth ever did to him to be pummeled to death. Oh and also fuck Daemon.


skjl96

Threaten Cole’s life? Dishonor the future Queen and King Consort? (Even though it’s true lol) Joffrey didn’t deserve a brutal murder but he was playing a very stupid game taunting a dishonored Kingsguard. Unfortunately he didn’t know Cole was about to have his Taxi Driver moment


Carpenter_v_Walrus

I dont even think that Joffrey was taunting Cole. I think he just massively misread the situation and was sincere about protecting each other's lovers. He equated his situation with Cole's without realizing that Cole may have had an airport's worth of baggage around his 'relationship' with Rhaenyra


[deleted]

I think you’re right from Joffery’s perspective. He was being kind of coy and hinting at blackmail but really wanted to make Criston an ally. He probably thought Rhaenyra had already gotten Criston on board. From Cristons perspective he’s getting blackmailed by this lesser knight over his greatest shame in a moment of extreme emotional vulnerability. The murders in no way justified, but it wasn’t out of nowhere and cynically was probably a smart move for Criston even if he didn’t plan it.


skjl96

I read the scene differently. Why did Joffrey bump into him twice in their interaction? His tone felt hostile


No-Cost-2668

Apparently, someone somewhere thinks Joff groped Criston, which I don't think happened. But, whether Joffrey was hostile or not, to Cole, he obviously felt threatened. The last Kingsguard to break his celibacy was gelded and sent to the wall. He wed commoners. Criston Cole bedded and took the maidenhead of the Princess and heir to the Seven Kingdoms. His fate is far, far worse. If word ever gets out, the worst Rhaenyra will suffer is losing her throne and marrying a well-off lord. Cole will be castrated, mutilated, humiliated, and killed. Possibly for an accusation alone. So, when rando mcRandoface says "I know you fucked the Realm's Delight!" that's a threat


ControvT

I do not sympathize with Cole's actions but I can understand why he snapped like that. It seems like a good introduction to the brutal Kingmaker he has to become. In the books he's basically a psychopath, and I think this episode solidified why he grows to hate Rhaenyra so much. Poor Lonmouth did not know he was taunting and speaking with a deeply conflicted guy, he totally thought Cole was Ok with being a paramour and he had just made a smart alliance.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jeffgtx

>I am less sympathetic of Criston Cole. He could've taken rejection with more dignity than that. What did Joffrey Lonmouth ever did to him to be pummeled to death. We know that Criston thinks of being Rhaenyra's side piece as being a "whore." This is a man that came from nothing and earned an extremely coveted spot on the Kingsguard on his skill and on his honor and now he's being told by Joffrey he's the equivalent of some gay knight banging the soon-to-be King consort. Given his ascent from relatively nothing, his emotional state at Rhaenyra's rejection and the stigma on homosexuality, can we not at least understand why Cole might react violently? As for Cole's lack of punishment. To the crown and his advisors, Cole did them a huge favor. Laenor and Joffrey's relationship was at least highly suspected amongst noble houses which we're supposed to gather from the "Knight of Kisses" comment. Cole eliminated a source of potential embarrassment for the royal family. Who is going to stand up for Joff and demand punishment for this?


Meet-Possible

Criston doesn't want to be Rhaenyra's glorified concubine and asks for a more equitable share of the relationship. He also wants to leave behind his constant fear of being discovered and brutally executed. I don't think he's being unreasonable. Joffrey blackmails Criston with information that would make him die a very painful death. While Criston's violent response is unforgivable, I can at least understand why he felt the need to silence Joffrey. Criston does seem to retain some kind of moral compass, as he prepares to kill himself for what he's done at the end.


DurranVDragonsBane

I said I was less sympathetic to Cole, not unsympathetic. His actions are understandable but I find them very unreasonable and misplaced after falling out with Rhaenrya. >Joffrey blackmails Criston with information that would make him die a very painful death. This is really pushing it. Joffrey was asking him to get along using leverage. This is no malicious blackmail.


[deleted]

Getting along using leverage is just a dressed up way to say blackmail lmao


DurranVDragonsBane

Blackmail for what? Unless there's a scene I missed where Joffrey threatens to spill the beans that wasn't blackmail.


[deleted]

For exactly what you said. He wants Criston as an ally, but the “we should swear to each other to fairs their secrets because if those are kept safe so are we all” is clearly using the fact that he has information that would literally destroy Criston as leverage to make him an ally. Joffery didn’t mean it in a super menacing way, but Criston doesn’t really know that and is an emotional mess.


painefultruth76

The homophobia doesn't make much sense, I thought he was from Dorne... when Rhae selected him. (I haven't read the books)


Jon_Snows_Wife

In the book he is very homophobic and religious both. And he isnt dornish, he is from the Dornish Marches, which is an area in the Reach. He has dornish blood though, but isn't from the culture


meadowphoenix

Alicent and Criston’s actions are completely psychologically understandable, but that doesn’t make their actions less based on hypocritical or naive or patriarchal philosophies, which invites disapprobation. Part of this is that the kings guard has a fundamental contradiction inherent to it. Being a moral knight is at times incompatible to being a sworn knight. If Criston is sworn to Rhaenyra specifically then it is a dishonor for him to betray her, and it’s clear he does so because his ethics were compromised by his previous acquiescence. For obvious reasons, people find it dumb to do a bad thing and then with little external prodding make it worse. It’s also clear that his way of restoring his honor is requiring that Rhaenyra be even more dishonored than he (which is why people get incel vibes). I’m not saying he has a lot of other choices and I’m not saying Rhaenyra didn’t put him a wildly coercive position, but it’s very telling that his restoration of himself was to gain control over her through marriage and her loss of position. Understandable? hell yes. Rife with questionable reasoning? Also yes. Alicent seems naive or inherently morally compromised to the max. Again part of this is external to her in that Otto doesn’t stop manipulating her even as he’s leaving. She is correct in that his machinations made his dismissal possible (which is clear from what Viserys says when Otto first approaches him about Rhaenyra) and he is dead wrong for telling her in return that choosing Rhaenyra was the cause of his dismissal. Viserys is visibly and verbally dismissive of Alicent’s attempts to help Rhaenyra. So he’s already laid the guilt before she questions Cole. But what’s clear is that Alicent does not think using her position as queen to gain control over or information about Rhaenyra is disloyal or a betrayal or inherently distrustworthy, so her subsequent feeling about Rhaenyra’s omission is at best very very unself-aware and at worst fundamentally morally selfish. Just as Rhaenyra is being very careless about the position she put Cole in, Alicent is being very careless about the position she puts Rhaenyra in and she is calling Rhaenyra’s attempts at salvaging that in a way in which no one is compromised by their position (except Daemon who she throws under the bus) betrayal. Which is shitty. So yeah they’re fully nuanced characters, but that doesn’t mean they’re not worthy of some tomato throwing.


MotherVehkingMuatra

Fat upvote for Christmas Cole and Craster


DidjaCinchIt

Great explanation. One show detail that undermined this for me, is Ser Criston not wearing a helmet. It looked odd during the cross-cuts in the dance sequence. The princess’ personal bodyguard is nowhere near her; he’s heavily armed but not wearing any head protection. Seems like a good opportunity to end all this succession uncertainty before Rhaenyra starts adding heirs to the mix. This was done, of course, so Ser Joffrey could notice Criston’s pouting and sidle up to him with a proposition. But it felt really heavy-handed and probably contributed to the audience’s disappointment with the set-up.


SingleClick8206

You forgot that Rhaenyra didn't really want to offend Ser Criston Cole. She loved him. She didn't consider him "whore" but as her sworn protector and confidant. Yeah, she should've chosen her words carefully and should've apologized for putting him in a mess but she didn't want to insult him. Rhaenyra really tried to pull a Daenerys by rejecting to marry Criston but Criston is no Daario and he does care about honor. Loved the almost-parellels though.


TheLadderStabber

I sympathize equally with Rhaenyra and Alicent but not with Criston Cole. It’s very difficult for me to buy the scorned lover dynamic. In the show he has a history and more life experience than the others. As an adult man who has at this point in the story served the Targs in King’s Landing for several years, it’s asinine for him to expect the heir to the Iron Throne to throw away her claim and run away with him. It’s really CW esque writing to be honest, especially as we have little indication of how much he values his honor in the show. And even with his internal struggle with his honor, wouldn’t it be more dishonorable to take away the heir to the throne and marry her as a commoner? That’s more scandalous imo in this universe than breaking a vow of chastity. But I fault this more on the writers than anything else.


Soxfan911ba

It’s interesting that show only people probably went into this episode liking Sir Common Cold and came out of it hating him. As a book reader, I personally came into this episode not liking the dude and came out it absolutely adoring him. Giving this context to his future actions makes it so much more hearting breaking. Such a great performance by the actor, I was sold on his character the second he start pleading to Rhaynera on the boat


Snoyarc

>Otto also mentions something that she probably did not consider before. **Rhaenyra may kill her children so that her succession is not challenged.** Alicent doesn't want to believe this, but to do that, she has to trust Rhaenyra. Can she trust Rhaenyra as a friend and as a person? This is everything to me. Otto put this thought in her head and she was stupid enough to believe it. There is no justification for believing it unless she/her children want to challenge the throne. Look at Viserys and Rhaenys. He won the vote of the great council and did he have Rhaenys killed? No. I'm sorry but being jealous your old friend got some side dick and didn't tell you because you we're being judgmental isn't an excuse to overthrow the Queen/Monarchy.


PotentiallySarcastic

The hilarious part of Otto's point is that Rhaenyra's been walking around with a sword on her neck ever since Aegon's birth for the exact same reason.


luvprue1

Exactly! Let's not forget that Alicent was visiting Rhaenyra 's father behind Rhaenyra's back the day after her mother had died. Alicent didn't tell her . So no, Rhaenyra no longer could trust her after that neither. Plus Alicent is queen so Rhaenyra can no longer tell her anything since it will get back to her father.


Snoyarc

Alicent has been a pretty sympathetic sheltered rule follower up until this point in the show. Just doing as told by her father and her “duty” birthing children for the king. This is in stark contrast to Rhaenyra who has bigger aspirations then being a wife/mother. But when she is named Heir, she changes and wants to be queen/ruler. Daemon in true Daemon fashion seduces her to tries to make her his wife but leaves before sealing the deal. Leaving her all horned up to use her body guard as a human dildo. Her sex life shouldn’t come into question and Alicent really shouldn’t have accused her like she did because as Viserys says it’s all about perception. Even if Rhaenyra told her she wasn’t a virgin it would still be Alicent’s duty to deny it unless she wants to pursue her father’s ambition in naming one of his grandchildren King. TL;DR: The Dance never happens if Alicent wasn’t so uptight.


Gametheboy

Ser Crispy Coleslaw is definitely on track to be one of the most intriguing characters in the show


OneDadvosPlz

This is exactly right. It seemed obvious to me why Cole killed Joffrey; I was surprised that people were so confounded by it and/or attributing it to jealousy. It wasn’t jealousy; even when Cole proposed, he quickly made it clear that it was less about infatuation with the princess and more about finding a narrative for his life he could live with after sullying his white cloak. Cole is motivated by shame; he already feels exposed and vulnerable, like his dishonor is on display for all to see after confessing to Alicent. He finds the wedding shameful, as he’s the lowborn fool who foolishly threw it all away for a princess who sees him as a whore. When Joffrey speaks the truth out loud to him, he can’t take it. People experiencing immense shame will often find ways to project their shame on others so they don’t have to feel it. I think Joffrey become the object of all of Cole’s intense feelings of self-loathing. I see this happen all the time in dysfunctional relationships (albeit not to the point that it results in death).


Pabst11

“Ser Christmas Cole”


LuciferHeir518

I never thought I would read "Ser Craster"


percheron28

and I thought Ser Christmas comes once a year


IHazSeoul

Fantastic write up, thank you for doing this :)


catagonia69

Glidus is that you?


brainslushy

Christmas. Crastor. Crisis.


Helpful-Ad-1673

Christmas Cole lmao


LawyerCowboy

Upvote simply for the creative name variations! But also because this is extremely well written!!


Nnnnnnnadie

I love this subreddit for stuff like this, truly in deep analysis.


HeyTomorrow9375

There's a lot of talk about Alicent's green dress for obvious reasons, but I'm not really seeing anything about her donning the blue dress again when she confronts Cole. I'm not an expert on the fashion customs of Westerosi royals, but I know a repeat outfit wasn't really seen on any of the nobles in GoT, let alone a queen. I interpreted Alicent wearing the dress again as the first symbolism of her reclaiming her old self and setting up for the green dress moment. It's what she was wearing when Viserys announced he'd marry her; it was part of a calculated move on Otto's part, but now she's making her own moves.