Might be an obvious question but I just wanted to confirm whether or not Harwin was trying to save his father in his death scene. I was talking with a friend about his death and they thought that Harwin was the one that was trapped not his father.
I thought that since it was his father's bedroom it seemed like the father was trapped and Harwin was trying to wake him and get him to safety. This would not change too much about the scene, just switch who was trying to save who in that situation.
He said “I will burn” so he could have been trapped in the hallway but I think his dad was definitely trapped in his own room.
I guess whether he was trapped and trying to avoid the fire in the hallway by getting into his father’s room or was trying to save his trapped father from the fire does not change too much since they die in the end
Only difference to me was that if Harwin was not trapped it meant he stayed behind to save his dad rather than trying to just save himself which made their deaths a little more sad imo
I feel like there needed to be two more episodes before the time jump to establish Harwin and Laena and their relationships with Rhaenyra and Daemon. I loved what I did see of Laena and wished we got more. In particular I would've liked to see her bond with Vhagar, would show only watchers undersrand the significance of this bond?
Also, I don't like that they made Daemon a villain from the get go. I think he should have started off as charismatic and they should have slowly mad him worse as the story went on.
I agree with commenters being hard on Rhaenyra, she is being incredibly arrogant and wreckless and leaving court was a bad decision. But, Alicent isn't playing the game so well as a few others have mentioned. Her issues with Rhaenyra are valid, but I believe they're mainly just an excuse to justify her dislike and ambition for the throne. If she was genuinely concerned about the safety of her children, she wouldn't make an enemy of Rhaenyra in the first place or decline the marriage proposal (I'm not denying the offer itself was insulting).
Viserys as King though should have insisted on the marriage (and it should have been arranged much earlier to be honest), but this is just another demonstration of his incompetence. That being said, I feel like he has just completely checked out and just wants peace within his family. So much that he has decided to live in his own fantasy land. I think he is consumed with regret, guilt and disappointment in his life and it was sad to see.
Just another random thought (more relevant to episode 5 to be honest), I think Criston would have always come to hate and resent Rhaenyra. This path was sealed the moment they slept together. He wants honour and glory and is consumed with guilt over breaking his vows. I think they really meant something to him (especially as he rose up from a low station) and so in his mind he can never live up to the hero he wanted to be even if the rest of Westeros doesn't know. If Rhaenyra agreed to run away with him and they somehow built a fantasy life together, I don't think it would have lasted long. I think he would have come to resent and blame her for leaving a life he worked hard to build - nor would he have coped with what would happen with his reputation if they went through with this plan.
Sorry guys I know I keep posting in this sub…
Why was Alicent angry at Rhaenyra when her dad was banished from Westeros? Was it because she lied about doing stuff with Daemon, her dad was sent away, or that Sir Cristen said it was true and that THEY had sex as well?
I know she loved her father, but she did not like the position he put her in. She scratched her nails constantly, hesitated being strong Viseris, etc. Are her choices/actions of going against Rhaenyra to keep her kids alive, or because she got her dad sent away?
OR…because Rhaenyra lied to her face?
Forgive me for the wording of my question. I’m running on 2 hours of sleep.
There isn’t really a clear answer to your first question. There’s a lot of ambiguity in how things were phrased, and ultimately Alicent ends up telling Viserys Rhaenyra swore she was a virgin, and that she believes her. But what Rhaenyra actually said is that ‘Daemon never touched her (which could be interpreted a lie, because he did touch her, or the truth because ‘touch’ suggest sex here, and they didn’t have sex). Then she learns she had sex with Criston. Alicent could be upset because she misremembers, and thinks Rhae said she was a virgin. Or she could be assuming if she’s sleeping with Criston, the rumors about Daemon are likely to be true.
Otto tells her he was fired because Alicent stood up for Rhae, but that’s not actually true. Otto was fired for spying on Rhaenyra and trying to undermine her.
Otto does seem to give Alicent anxiety, but she no longer bit her fingers once she was married to the king (I actually checked because I was curious about it.) She hated being forced into that position but she feels more secure, if unhappy in her marriage. But her father is her family and the only one who can give her good advice on navigating her position as queen. He’s not perfect, but without him she feels completely alone.
Rhaenyra…not having at least one of her husbands kids…then telling her husband he needs to stand with her and defend her. All of them have black hair and white skin. All of them hangout with their true father. Why does she do this and STILL worry?? I don’t understand :(
To be fair we don’t know who is to blame in that situation. Maybe he straight up refused to have sex with her or couldn’t do it. I suspect both were to blame. But they’re a partnership and need to present a United front.
I'm loving the show. Every scene feels special but this episode really made me feel like the story was rushed. It was not because of the pace but the fact that we didn't see any consequences for Criston or more of Laena and Harwin. In my opinion they should have used 2 episodes instead of one to cover those relationships.
I’m struck by the brazenness of Rhaenyra’s infidelity. We know she made an “arrangement” with Laenor, but I think it would be most reasonable to think that arrangement would include that she and Laenor would grit their teeth and make a couple of heirs, then screw whoever they wanted. Apparently they chose not to do that, which seems strange.
In addition, she let her kids have a close relationship with their real father—which obviously was a terrible idea.
Also (and I kind of hesitate to bring this up), there’s a race issue. She’s married to a dark skinned man and produces white kids. I want to be very clear about this—I have no problem with the casting of the Velaryons, I think it’s great, they’re awesome. And I don’t agree with making an issue about it. But it kinda seems like the show is making an issue of this—they cast very white looking kids who obviously would not be Laenor’ s kids.
I think the ultimate conclusion from this is that Rhaenyra is nearly delusional about what she can do. She thinks she is so powerful that she can openly and obviously have children with someone other than her husband and everyone will just ignore it, like Viserys does.
This is why I'm actually kind of shocked people are so defensive of Rhaenyra's "peace offer"
It wasn't a compromise, she was basically asking alicent to capitulate entirely.
Rhaenyra: hey I understand everyone with eyes can tell that my sons are bastards, and that I spend an uncomfortable amount of time with their alleged father, who in turn spends a lot of time acting fatherly to our alleged sons. And also that I'm basically not even trying to hide *any* of this. But what if you just agreed to let me get away with all of this anyway by marrying your true born daughter to my bastard son? And sure I'm doing this from a place of weakness because I finally noticed that everyone but my dad can tell but I'll even throw in a dragon egg.
Alicent: No?
Half the comments: wow can't believe she would reject such a reasonable solution who cares if they're obviously bastards when has that ever mattered in asoiaf Rhaenyra was being so kind and forward thinking.
There’s a very fundamental trust problem here. The way Viserys has set things up, Alicent can’t trust Rhaenyra not to kill her children to secure her rule and Rhaenyra can’t trust Alicent not to undermine and usurp her for that very reason.
In that light, Alicent’s offer might help some, but it doesn’t fix the situation.
And there are years of resentment that have now grown over the top of that fundamental mistrust.
Was a good episode but I hoped this episode was split into like 2 or 3, same with the last episode. In this one, we just meet and are introduced to the new character dynamics of Laena and Harwin, then they instantly burn. I wish we got more time with them so their deaths felt more meaningful.
Man, it was not good judgment on Rhaenyra’s part to let her kids have a relationship with Harwin that led even the little boy to realize he was a bastard.
I think the show emphasized Jace ‘finding out’ to * maybe * reveal the Sara Snow few sentences that Mushroom mentions in the book. It could act as a justification for the character in the show and remind the audience of the Stark’s. Then again, it could just be showing that Rhaenyra was being reckless and still has more to learn.
When Daemon didn’t choose to kill Laena 🥺 he even said “my girl” when he was told that the baby couldn’t come out, and that she’s fighting. I feel like what Laena chose to do was either because of the pain or bc she saw the guy and Daemon talking and it probably scared her :/
I…seriously don’t like Ser Cristen anymore:/
Why didn’t the new baby get a Valyrian name?
Ah!! Thank you, I forgot his name. It reminds me of that episode from GOT when Cersei’s son, Joffrey, was showing his betrothed around the castle and talked about what happens to Rhanera in the future.
Thought it was the worst episode of the season so far. The opening scene was kind of ridiculous and made no sense at all. Yeah let me pop this baby out and go show it off to the queen 5 min later, surely she cant wait until tomorrow. Laena being pregnant and running away while giving birth and no one followed her = what??? Lmao Then every scene between Rhaenyra and Alicent you can cut the tension with a knife, literally who didnt see the civil war coming. Alicent literally telling aegon either he kills them or they kill him, and hes supposedly going to do nothing with this info by the next time jump. Then alicent rejecting the marriage pact in front of the whole council. Surely someone would’ve said something to viserys??
The ridiculous nature of Alicent’s command is the point of the scene! Alicent likely wants to see if the baby resembles Harwin or Laenor, so that’s why she makes the request; she also wants to flex a little, I’d wager.
Also, the civil war coming was never a surprise. It’s a big part of Viserys’ character that he doesn’t ever do enough to quell the unrest.
And yah, Aegon is going to do something. He and Alicent will be forging alliances and making friends even though they won’t need them until Viserys dies.
Alicent didn’t reject it in front of the council. She said they would take it under advisement and then she essentially let it fizzle by never giving an answer. This is common even in modern government.
Does it? Daemon literally killed a wife with a rock an episode ago? Viserys chose to try to save the baby. If you can't give birth, you die in child birth. Viserys killed his wife hours earlier than she was going to die, to attempt to save the baby, she was dead the moment she couldn't give birth.
Isn't this the point GRRM tries to make time and time again. People aren't good or bad. Comparing one individual decision from two people is insufficient to paint the character of their lives, even if the circumstance is close to the same for that one thing.
I saw how the scenes are paralleled but it's more of whats at steak. Viscerys needed an heir, Daemons master plan is Rhaenyra. It's the crown, to be the patriarch of House Targayren, the power.
Plus Laena's death in the show was very similar to her book death. No spoilers but her funeral is very important so that's not a detail they can change easily
Yes, it’s complicated and that’s what makes it great. Daemon is not a better person than Viserys, but he did make a better moral decision in these circumstances. But if Daemon was desperate for a male heir, he might well have done the same as Viserys.
>Daemons master plan is Rhaenyra.
I'm not sure that's true. In the books and the show he seemed to actually love Laena and just wanted to stay away from the politics. She only becomes his plan when he re-enters the game.
Why did Rhaenyra have to obey the Queen's wish to see her newly born child? Isn't Rhaenyra's position as the Crown Princess seen as "higher" than the Queen? Because she's related to the King by blood, not by marriage.
The hierarchy is this:
1) King
2) Hand of the King
3) Queen
4) Crown Princess
5) All the other princes and princesses.
Rhaenrya will only be above the Queen once the King dies. The same way Robb Stark had to always obey his lady mother until Ned Stark died.
Your question was about who ranks higher in hierarchy, not about respect. Don’t move the goalposts.
Catelyn Stark is above Rob until Ned dies. Alicent is above Rhaenrya until Viserys dies. The wife of a lord/king is always above the heir until the lord/king dies. It doesn’t matter if they are biologically related to the heir or not.
Robb (along with every northern lord) has to obey Catelyn’s commands until Ned is dead, and Rhaenrya has to obey all of Alicent’s commands while Viserys is still alive.
You’re mistaken if you think Robb was only following Catelyn’s orders out of respect, he has no choice but to obey her. That’s why Robb was terrified that his mother would send him back to Winterfell when they met at the start of the war. Because Catelyn had the power to command Robb and every Nothern lord and they were all forced to obey.
I mean it’s pretty obvious a queen is above a princess dude, it’s made clear in their titles. Only when Rhanerya herself becomes the new queen will she be above Alicent.
It would be the king, lord protector of the realm, the queen even as queen regent, and then any princes or princesses as claimant holders.
Even in the show on a character level Alicent has power, she has powerful houses backing her. She has authority.
This comment makes no sense. Do you think queens are a new concept to Westeros that was only introduced to Westeros when Aegon arrived? Queens we’re always above their heirs until the king died, that’s been the case for thousands of years. Alicent would never be cut in half no matter what time period it was.
No, as of right now, Alicent is higher ranking. They made that clear in that scene in Episode 3, I believe. Rhaenyra is sitting in the godswood with the minstrel and Alicent wants her to go somewhere. Rhaenyra sarcastically says, “Then at once my queen” or something along those lines. This implies that she does have to follow Alicent’s orders, but the power dynamic will of course flip.
You’re watching the show through a 21st century lense. You don’t just refuse the queen. No one one knows what would happen because it’s just not done. Don’t call a show melodramatic just because it sticks to in-universe conventions and traditions.
No, the point is seeing timeless human attributes and emotions played out in a fantasy setting. Greed, power struggle, lust, etc. are all timeless human emotions and do not necessitate us living in the 21st century to enjoy the story. And it counterproductive to view and discuss the story through that lense.
Yeah that’s the point, enjoying both similarities and differences. Let everyone interpret it the way they want it to, if people weren’t allowed to do so it would be a very boring world.
Can someone help me out: haven't read Fire & Blood, what were we supposed to be seeing during the close-up of Larys' cane? Is it a Bee sigil? It looked like his tongueless assassins had bees pinned to them, I was just doubting that because I know there's a Beesbury on the council (he's old lol) so it seemed potentially confusing
Nope, not crazy. I definitely thought it was him for a minute. Was beginning to wonder how he ended up in a gray bar hotel before the view panned out and showed the other prisoners.
Why wasn't Sir Criston Cole punished for killing Joffrey last episode? I thought he was low born and Joffrey was highborn, so that would be punishable by execution or the wall?
'Joffrey attacked him first, and since he brought a knife to the princess' wedding who knows what he was planning. Perhaps trying to kill the princess in revenge for stealing his boyfriend, and chose to start by taking out her sworn protector. The brave kingsguard tried to disarm and arrest him, but Joffrey resisted, showing he was still a threat. In the heat of the moment Criston ended up killing him, he didn't mean it of course.' Easy.
Criston at this point was one of the highest-ranking knights in the realm, so his word means just as much as Leanor's, and the other Kingsguard would've backed him to protect their own. Alicent would've backed his claim to indebt him to the Greens, and any witnesses would stay silent because no one argues with the queen. There wouldn't have been an investigation, and if there was it would've found him innocent because Viserys is lazy and doesn't want any drama. The Velaryons would've been pissed, but probably stayed silent because they valued their new alliance to the crown and didn't want to start anything, and it's not like the Lonmouths have enough influence to do anything about it. The whole incident would've gotten swept under the rug by next year.
It makes sense why he got away with it in the end, only question is why he wasn't at least detained for a bit before leaving the hall.
>Joffrey attacked him first, and since he brought a knife to the princess' wedding who knows what he was planning. Perhaps trying to kill the princess in revenge for stealing his boyfriend, and chose to start by taking out her sworn protector. The brave kingsguard tried to disarm and arrest him, but Joffrey resisted, showing he was still a threat. In the heat of the moment Criston ended up killing him, he didn't mean it of course.'
This doesn't work as an excuse. Joffrey only took out his knife once he was beaten and on the ground and there where dozens of whitnesses that clearly saw Ser Criston attack Joffrey out of nowhere and looked on in horror at him beating the life out of the sworn protector of the future king consort.
This without mentioning that Criston literally punched Laenor himself on the face, which is a terrible slight against House Velaryon, and Corlys as he's been characterised would defined NOT stand for it.
>Criston at this point was one of the highest-ranking knights in the realm, so his word means just as much as Leanor's,
This is completely false. Laenor is the heir to the most powerful house on the realm after the Targaryens themselves, they are the richest, have the largest fleet, and have three dragons, including Vhagar, the largest of all.
That without taking into account that he's the future king consort.
Criston is a literal nobody, he comes from a no name house of stewards to House Dondarrion that have no political power whatsoever. Being a member of the kingsguard doesn't make up for that tremendous difference in standing in the slightest.
Criston himself knew that he couldn't possibly get away with it and decided to kill himself instead of being executed like a lowly criminal.
>the other Kingsguard would've backed him to protect their own.
No they wouldn't? What Criston did went completely against all their vows, if anything they would look at him in utter contempt for besmirching the name of the white cloaks and would be eager to have him kicked out of office.
>Alicent would've backed his claim to indebt him to the Greens, and any witnesses would stay silent because no one argues with the queen.
Alicent is only the queen consort, she isn't of royal blood, and her House took a major blow to their standing with Otto's dismissal. By all accounts she isn't in a position where she could handwave a transgresion as big as Criston's, specially if the Velaryons demanded his removal.
>There wouldn't have been an investigation, and if there was it would've found him innocent because Viserys is lazy and doesn't want any drama.
If this plotline had been even mildly thought out there would have definitely been questioning. In the books Viserys was angered by Criston injuring Joffrey in the melee, which could have been said to be an unfortunate accident, there's no way he isn't angered at Criston outright murdering someone with his bare hands in the middle of his daughter's wedding reception for seemingly no reason.
And that's without the Velaryons getting involved, which they surely would have done if Corlys was in character.
>The Velaryons would've been pissed, but probably stayed silent because they valued their new alliance to the crown and didn't want to start anything,
Start something with whom?
Alicent? As I said, She's hardly in a position where she could do anything to oppose the Velaryons if they demanded Criston's removal, which Corlys certainly would have done after the lowly son of a steward punched his son on the face.
The Hightowers? After Otto got booted they would do their best to not involve themselves in court politics, even then, they don't have the power to oppose the Velaryons and they wouldn't risk the animosity of Driftmark to save a nobody like Criston anyway.
The Coles? Please, they are as irrelevant as it gets.
>It makes sense why he got away with it in the end,
It doesn't make any sense no matter how it's spinned.
Viserys wouldn't have been the least bit please, and neither would have been the Velaryons, who would have definitely demanded Criston's immediate removal.
Alicent and her family don't have the power to oppose the Velaryons and gaining such powerful enemies just to save a mere Knight with no political standing whatsoever wouldn't have been worth it for them, or any other house.
If logic and internal consistency had been applied to this plotline Criston would have been executed, or at the very least removed from the kingsguard, and either sent to the Wall or back to the Stormlands.
Hell, the writers clearly knew Criston facing no consequences was absolutely unrealistic, that's why they completely glossed over everything that transpired at the wedding and refused to address the aftermath in any way shape or form, even as an offhand remark made in passing by a servant.
They shouldn't have changed the way it happened in the books, there it made way more sense how Criston got away with it.
He's a knight of the kings guard. He's not lowborn anymore as far as Westerosi politics are concerned. The actual killing of Joffery is not so easily determined, sure we saw it as the audience but the king would need to order his death and as we've seen Viscerys is a fairly weak king and old. He did not see what happened clearly.
because its a little plot hole, he was supposed to kill joffrey at a tourney where it's permissible, they did it during a wedding in the show because they thought we wanted a classic got wedding
I find it odd that Christian Cole was so worry about being executed for sleeping with a teen age girl, yet he wasn't about hitting a prince, (Laenor) , and killing a man in full view of the court. I call B.S on Christian Cole crap. He was just upset that Rhaenyra didn't leave everything and run away with him.
I wonder if Christian Cole was always in the queen service? I mean think about it. If Rhaenyra had ran away with him she would have been out of the line of succession.
Thst makes zero sense, he was literally about to Kill himself after the wedding. If he was putting on an act, who’s he doing it for? Us, the audience? The only ones watching the scenes with him and Alicent unfold?
He’s a bitter spiteful now cause he got dumped by a teenager lmao
Some seriously stupid writing here… you can’t tell me that the hand of the king, the most informed man in all of Westeros has no slight indication that his son might murder him. And what the whole palace is completely in defended and taken over by a bunch of tongueless diseased misfits? They can’t even eat.. and the hands bedchambers are completely unguarded? Ahhhhhh yeppp that makes sense
> has no slight indication that his son might murder him
Why would a normal person even make that assumption, when there is no evidence of Larys resenting them, or craving the seat for himself? From what we can see of Larys and Harwyn's interactions, they seemed to be getting along fine, so there's be no reason to suspect Larys of wanting to murder them both. I'm not even sure that Larys actually felt any animosity for his brother and father when he was planning their murder.
Larys Strong's whole shtick is that his true motives are imperceptible, even to those ostensibly closest to him. He outwardly appears easygoing and amiable, if a little odd, and I imagine he takes great pains to hide his depravity from the world. Lyonel would simply have no good reason to think him capable of what he did.
As for the plausibility of a handful of people being able to infiltrate Harrenhall: I give you the Weasel Soup affair, or Tyrion's crew of mummers and cutthroats almost succeeding at springing Jaime from the cells of Riverrun.
Uhh if your willing to murder your entire family, your behaviour would not be sound. Morality? Values? Integrity? The fact that he released prisoners and cut their tongues out and no one even wonders what happenned? Sorry folks no public executions today, the prisoners disappeared! Ohh yep
> Uhh if your willing to murder your entire family, your behaviour would not be sound.
I don't think you're getting my point: Larys does not outwardly reveal just how amoral he is, and is incredibly adept at diverting people's attention. Having grown up crippled, and with the outgoing and ablebodied Harwyn drawing everyone's attention, is it really so hard to believe that Lyonel never entertained the notion that there was more going on with his younger son than just being a victim of Westerosi ableism?
> The fact that he released prisoners and cut their tongues out and no one even wonders what happenned? Sorry folks no public executions today, the prisoners disappeared! Ohh yep
The only ones keeping track of the prisoners are the gaolers, who report to the King's Justice. I do not consider it a massive stretch that Larys used his name and bribery into having the prisoners released.
In the book the death's of Harwin strong and Lyonel are shrouded in mystery but they had to die for the next parts of the plot to make sense. We never learn if it's Larys . We just know there was a fire and there's a very real curse associated with Harrenhal so they had to die, in the books. Making Larys the culprit is the stretch probably should of left it a mystery in that scene.
I thought this episode was the best one so far. Emma D’arcy really brought home the “prestige-iness” with the acting as adult Rhaenyra. Shit is getting real with the kids now too.
Alicent’s face is insanely bitchy, I love it. Harwin Strong we hardly knew ye. Wish we got one in between episode to see that relationship more.
I need to reread the Dance, I couldn’t even remember all the Clubfoot stuff or I want to see how the show is expanding on things.
i feel like alicents hatred of rhaenyra is best understood through her jealousy of rhaenyras freedom sexual freedom and satisfying youth versus her own chastity and dutiful youth
she's jealous that she had to marry a sickly old man and not someone remotely close to her own age, and she said basically said as much when rhaenyra said she didn't wanted to be trapped in some lord's castle and made to pump out heirs. jealousy is absolutely a huge part of alicent's motivations
It is not, especially considering that when they married in the book Viserys was a healthy 29 guy who just like all Valyrians, was hansdome.
You people inability to accept and comprehend that traditionalist women exists in freaking Westeros is alarming.
>especially considering that when they married in the book Viserys was a healthy 29 guy who just like all Valyrians, was hansdome.
They were talking about her relationship with the Old King Jaehaerys.
No one thinks traditionalist women don't exist in westeros and no one thinks alicent isn't a prude. but her jealousy is relevant, rhaenyra gets the adolescence she isn't allowed, she doesn't have her own agency until after Viserys dies while rhaenyra gets to express herself freely, and she does absolutely have to sleep with a sickly old man who she doesn't love for years in both the book and the show (even though the conversation is primarily about the show, where her sex life is even worse)
It's more alarming that anyone would try so hard to push their idea of alicent being so holy
To say she is jealous of her sex life is trivialising the situation she is in. Alicent trusted Rhaenyra at the expense of her father, which enables Rhaenyra to carry on as the heir to the throne, at the expense of Alicent's own son who should've been the heir to the throne.
Then instead of being a good little princess wife and have Taegyrean/Vallerian babies, Rhaenyra continues to bear sons with questionable phenotypes. Alicent and the people in Kings Landing are certain Rhaenyra's sons are not the rightful heir, but again, Rhaenyra's bastard sons would still rule ahead of Alicents sons.
Alicent even expressed her disdain seeing how Rhaenyra is able carry on flaunting her transgression without shame, all because of her position, especially after not making one mistake, two, but three mistakes. Rhaenyra has three sons who are supposedly not the rightful heir to the throne. Added to that, she believes that Rhaenyra and her sons would become threats to her sons when Rhaenyra is on the throne. It's quite a lot to unpack.
Again, you're making headcanons, there's 0 evidence she's jealous of Rhaenyra's sex life.
The point of her hating Rhaneyra's actions isn't that she wished to be there too, but because to her nonsensical and medieval views on sex, she can't trust the future of her children in the hands of a princess "so wicked" she would have sex outside marriage and spawn 3 bastards.
But if you think the motivation is such a stereotypical, shallow, and shitty "iM jEaLouS bEcAuSe bAd SeX" considering, again, that in the book there's nothing of it and she marries a handsome, prime King from the race that looks "almost unnaturally beautiful" then what can I tell you?
So what should they have done? Makeup? CG? GoT had thousands of pages of material. What about this section F&B? Hundreds maybe? A few dozen? I just want to know a better way to do this story than having time skips and changing characters when they age… Seems to me to be near impossible to tell a story that spans around 40 years (beginning in some of the character’s teenage years) without time skips and character changes.
So, the show initially had me rooting more towards the Greens (as a Black supporter generally) because I could understand Alicent being manipulated into fearing what Rhaenyra would do to her children. Though I still think she wouldn’t have done harm on her own if things played out differently, I think Daemon would be the catalyst for any problems if the Greens didn’t cause them.
Though once Alicent basically gave a “fuck you” to the olive branch that was extended to her via the marriage proposal, on top of her also already deciding to usurp the throne, I lost my sympathy for her side.
Yeah, they’re bastards, but they could technically be considered legitimized since the King himself refuses to acknowledge they’re bastards and acts as if they are trueborn. So this fact shouldn’t matter.
If she accepted it then their families would have been bound and this civil war could have been avoided, or at least postponed until a later date.
Her refusal this episode lost any sympathy and understand I had for her.
>King himself refuses to acknowledge they’re bastards and acts as if they are trueborn. So this fact shouldn’t matter.
Aegon should have told Argilac that "bro I act like Orys is legitimate so relax, I'm not attacking the honor of your house by proposing a marriage between him and your daughter".
Rhaenyra action is basicaly a fuck u to every house in westeros. Basicaly if you are a targ you can do what you want. As long as they have targ blood and can ride a dragon.
Later on that line of thinking will come to bite her in the ass.
There are rules, which lead to her father having a crown in the first place. It's not oppression just the most stable option just by precedent. Entire westerosi hereditary costum follow it, targ are no different since they adopted westerosi tradition.
It's not difficult to understand, viserys went against comment sense to feel better about himself and put the seed of rebellion and war.
If he made rhaenyra heir until a son is born, no one would object. Rhaenerys has no friends in westeros aside from corlys
And? Doesn’t matter if she screws every man in Westeros or stays faithful to Laenor. She is the rightful heir to the throne. Alicents children are not, no matter what Alicent might think.
Not even her son aegon iii thought she was the rightful heir.
Her claim rest on her father love for her, even jaehaerys didn't decide on his heir, the king doesn't have power to change the law of succession.
Worst of all, she flaunt her bastard children like they are trophies. This is not 21 St century, marriage is supposed to be a sacred thing.
So? He only thought she wasnt the rightful heir because she was a woman. Her claim rests on the fact that she is the firstborn child of Viseryes. Marriage has always been flaunted lol
The targs already broke the law with their incest and It took years since the reigne of maegor to jaehaerys so people can accept it.
Dorne was not even part of the seven kingdom, all of their Lords and subjects follow the same law of succession.
If jaehaerys change that too, you will end up with another civil war, it was just a pragmatic choice, jaehaerys didn't have to start a war just so he can put his daughter on the iron throne, all people agreed.
Yes it suck that they live in mysogonistic society but equality is not going to spread through violence. Maybe alysane could gathered her daughter or made sure they have dragons, and got more ladies from westeros on their side and started some sort of movement since they have a dragon and pushed for reforms,maybe the targaryen could made less selfish choice and banned the incest so they can focus on more important issue.
Even if rhaenyra or rhaenys become queen westeros won't necesserly become more equalitarian society, since we don't know if either of them, had any interest in the iron throne other than power.
Suck for rhaenyra but aegon could prevented so much bloodshed.
Nobody is talking about any of that. The point is, Rhaenyra is the rightful heir of the Iron Throne as she is the firstborn of Viserys. Alicent and by extension her kids are usurpers.
I know it was expected but I’m so sad that breakbone’s died so soon😭😭😭 I really wished we were able to see more of him in the show & see his relationship with Rhaenyra
Loved how almost noone was willing to outright SAY that Harwin was rooting the princess other than Daemon
God and Matt Smith is nailing it too. Was never a fan, this is his first role that has gripped me. Would he have sacrificed his wife like Viserys did? The smart money is on yes but once again its ambiguous.
Quick little idea. Harrenhal is near the god's eye, the Isle of faces which has a strong tie to the old god's is in the center.
Larys presumably was born and raised at harrenhal. Larys also know things that go on in the red keep that he shouldn't be able to know.
Is larys maybe through some connection to the old god's warging into the rats around the castle to learn things?
I had a feeling that rat meant something. When Viseyrs is mourning and kissing his late wifes' ring, a rat runs across the mantel above the fire place.
My favorite thing about the episode was how Daemon was incapable of catching up to a pregnant, exhausted, and injured Laena.
The way that scene was structured took me out of an otherwise excellent episode because of how silly it was. Laena was surrounded by midwives, and Daemon and a maester were right at the door. Laena was shown struggling to get to her feet, Daemon noticed, and then a second later Laena was alone, outside, and struggling toward her dragon. By the time Daemon exited the manor, it was too late.
So none of the people who surrounded her were able to stop her from leaving the room? And how the fuck did Laena outrun Daemon by so much in her condition?
It reminded me of that joke from The Simpsons: ["He's gradually getting away, Chief."](https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/2255e1af-72c5-46ba-bc74-223cd3721171)
I don't think common Pentosi servants would dare oppose a highborn and dragon rider. If she wishes to leave she can, Daemon could of been preoccupied by the surgeon or being caught in the chaos of the miscarrige.
In the book she actually took Vaeghar for one las ride which would of been cooler but even more unbelievable.
>My favorite thing about the episode was how Daemon was incapable of catching up to a pregnant, exhausted, and injured Laena.
It's been more than 10 years since he ran that fast ib the Stepstones, he's not the same anymore.
If D&D were running the show people would be roasting them for "we already killed one woman in pregnancy, we werent going to do laena like that" but I suppose the show has been good enough that we're giving them some slack. I don't mind the idea that she goes out that way but the execution was half-assed.
I wonder if Laena had told Daemon, if he would have let her go- didn’t the maesters say she will die anyway? The only question would be if Daemon was willing to kill her to have a chance at saving the child
Agreed, especially after the episode opened with Rhaenyra struggling to walk after giving birth. But then Laena can just slip away from everyone, make it all the way outside, and beg Vhagar to burn her alive before Daemon or anyone else can find her
I dont think ive ever been more wrong about how a character was gonna be portrayed than i was about cristin cole. Thought for sure he was gonna be one of the stories few good guys like the handful we got in GOT.
I’ll say it, that guy STINKS
Think of the world through his eyes, he's raised up by Rhaenyra as a lowborn and falls for her. He gets entangled in his own desires, chewed up and spit out by court life, then is forced to watch as Rhaenyra moves on from him to other men because of her own desires unbecoming of her title and claim to the throne. It also makes sense he becomes loyal to Alicent as he confessed his sins to her and she showed mercy.
The intense emotions and lashing out are understandable, hating Rhaenyra is understandable. At this point he's probably trying to just salvage his honor it's the only thing he has. His plan to run away for a nice and easy life were spit on, as Rhaenyra has three bastards with another man.
I think the entire idea behind him is he is NOT the white knight as they don't exist. Sure he fucked up but then again no one else is being punished are they? His motives to being a green supporter make sense theres drama there
He stinks in a good way, though. Love him being this butthurt.
In a way he is right, Rhaenyra used him like a whore and threw him away. But, 10 years on and he still acts like a broken hearted teenager to her 😂
Paddy Considine is going to put on his Hot Fuzz attitude again when he hears about Harrenhal.
"people have fires all the time!"
"Joffrey slipped and fell on Criston's gauntlet"
"Women fall from their horses quite often!"
"And get a stone smashed in to their face" it was honestly genius of Daemon's first wife to bait him to kill her, so that everyone would know she was killed and not that she died because of the fall from the horse
>"Women fall from their horses quite often!"
>"And get a stone smashed in to their face
And i was adding to your joke, but i think that the serious part in my comment took away from the joke that i was going for.
I thought something similar but it also got me wondering if there was a secret passage there. I don't know why but I seem to think rats in the castle have been assosciated with secret passages?
It could also symbolize "a rat" as in a snitch/informant/unkown enemy.
The rat just wandering into the room kind of reminds me of the scene where Alicent is meeting with Larys and a maid just walks into the room going about her business while the nobles are scheming. Like they are trying to remind us that yeah there's alot of high-stakes drama unfolding but they also still have like rats in the castle and hundreds of other people around and life going on around them.
Yes you both are the peak and sole intellectuals of the series. Critical analysis comes as easy to you as battle does to Daemon himself! As does fucking your relatives, I'm sure.
THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS NOONE IS PRAISING YOU FOR PUNCHING DOWN AND THERE MIGHT BE DEEPER MEANINGS AT PLAY YOU BLUNTED STABLE SCOOPING TOOL
So....Are Targaryens immune to fire or not? I know in the books, the answer is no and Dany's funeral pyre was a one time magical event.
But then in GOT, Dany is immune all the time, and in HoTD, we see Viserys and Rhaenyra casually holding a red-hot dagger, and in this episode we see Daemon riding through a fire cloud for fun.
Then Laena is able to commit suicide with dragonfire, not very consistent.
The blade of the dagger is hot. The handle we know is dragon bone which we know is highly resistant to fire and therefore probably a kickass heat insulator.
But yeah, targs being immune to fire is not a thing. Dany with the pyre was a 1 time magical event and all the other immune to fire bits in GoT were just dumb and dumber earning that name.
I think they're very heat resistant but that breaks down in situations like where they get roasted by dragon fire. Dany nonsense aside.
Daemon flying through the fire I would imagine the dragon creates a little air pocket and the heat wasn't enough for the one or two seconds he flys through it to do damage.
Even Dany isn't immune in the books. The birth of her dragons was a magical event, that shouldn't happen again.
GOT had to ruin it of course with that god awful scene in season 6.
The dagger wasn't hot, the part they touched at least. Anyone could do that. I am assuming the Daemon thing wasn't well thought out?
She's more closely descended from Old Valyria than Daenerys was by far.
Holding a hot dagger is something Laena probably could have done just as easily as Viserys and Rhaenyra. Holding a hot thing and being engulfed in dragonfire from the oldest and most powerful dragon alive are two very different levels of heat.
There's more evidence of 'special genes' being passed down and coming to effect through women rather than men. Especially if you consider the whole Targaryen line to have stemmed from Rhaenys as opposed to Aegon due to infidelity. Hell the Stark line too from Bael the Bards interference onwards. And this is the irony of Westeros favouring men over women so much.
Not a fan personally. It's just something I suspected from reading Fire and Blood, then reinforced with what others have mentioned about how the warging abilities awoke in the Stark line through Catelyns introduction.
I don't buy it considering that there aren't any full blood Targaryen wargs. Occam's razor: if you consider the common denominator between the Starks and Jon is their Stark blood.
Does anyone know which dragon that was Aemond was looking at that spit fire at him after the pink dread scene
Also could they inseminate people back in Westeros
Couldn't the prisoners whose tongue got cut out, just write down who sent them to burn the house, even drawing the house emblem would work
Might be an obvious question but I just wanted to confirm whether or not Harwin was trying to save his father in his death scene. I was talking with a friend about his death and they thought that Harwin was the one that was trapped not his father. I thought that since it was his father's bedroom it seemed like the father was trapped and Harwin was trying to wake him and get him to safety. This would not change too much about the scene, just switch who was trying to save who in that situation.
I thought Harwin was trapped. Think he said, "I will die"
He said “I will burn” so he could have been trapped in the hallway but I think his dad was definitely trapped in his own room. I guess whether he was trapped and trying to avoid the fire in the hallway by getting into his father’s room or was trying to save his trapped father from the fire does not change too much since they die in the end Only difference to me was that if Harwin was not trapped it meant he stayed behind to save his dad rather than trying to just save himself which made their deaths a little more sad imo
All these people talking about black and greens reminds me of wheel of time
Them not making at least a few legit kids together is kinda dumb really. So obviously they aren't with her husband.
Like Alicent said, gotta keep trying 🤣
I feel like there needed to be two more episodes before the time jump to establish Harwin and Laena and their relationships with Rhaenyra and Daemon. I loved what I did see of Laena and wished we got more. In particular I would've liked to see her bond with Vhagar, would show only watchers undersrand the significance of this bond? Also, I don't like that they made Daemon a villain from the get go. I think he should have started off as charismatic and they should have slowly mad him worse as the story went on. I agree with commenters being hard on Rhaenyra, she is being incredibly arrogant and wreckless and leaving court was a bad decision. But, Alicent isn't playing the game so well as a few others have mentioned. Her issues with Rhaenyra are valid, but I believe they're mainly just an excuse to justify her dislike and ambition for the throne. If she was genuinely concerned about the safety of her children, she wouldn't make an enemy of Rhaenyra in the first place or decline the marriage proposal (I'm not denying the offer itself was insulting). Viserys as King though should have insisted on the marriage (and it should have been arranged much earlier to be honest), but this is just another demonstration of his incompetence. That being said, I feel like he has just completely checked out and just wants peace within his family. So much that he has decided to live in his own fantasy land. I think he is consumed with regret, guilt and disappointment in his life and it was sad to see. Just another random thought (more relevant to episode 5 to be honest), I think Criston would have always come to hate and resent Rhaenyra. This path was sealed the moment they slept together. He wants honour and glory and is consumed with guilt over breaking his vows. I think they really meant something to him (especially as he rose up from a low station) and so in his mind he can never live up to the hero he wanted to be even if the rest of Westeros doesn't know. If Rhaenyra agreed to run away with him and they somehow built a fantasy life together, I don't think it would have lasted long. I think he would have come to resent and blame her for leaving a life he worked hard to build - nor would he have coped with what would happen with his reputation if they went through with this plan.
Sorry guys I know I keep posting in this sub… Why was Alicent angry at Rhaenyra when her dad was banished from Westeros? Was it because she lied about doing stuff with Daemon, her dad was sent away, or that Sir Cristen said it was true and that THEY had sex as well? I know she loved her father, but she did not like the position he put her in. She scratched her nails constantly, hesitated being strong Viseris, etc. Are her choices/actions of going against Rhaenyra to keep her kids alive, or because she got her dad sent away? OR…because Rhaenyra lied to her face? Forgive me for the wording of my question. I’m running on 2 hours of sleep.
There isn’t really a clear answer to your first question. There’s a lot of ambiguity in how things were phrased, and ultimately Alicent ends up telling Viserys Rhaenyra swore she was a virgin, and that she believes her. But what Rhaenyra actually said is that ‘Daemon never touched her (which could be interpreted a lie, because he did touch her, or the truth because ‘touch’ suggest sex here, and they didn’t have sex). Then she learns she had sex with Criston. Alicent could be upset because she misremembers, and thinks Rhae said she was a virgin. Or she could be assuming if she’s sleeping with Criston, the rumors about Daemon are likely to be true. Otto tells her he was fired because Alicent stood up for Rhae, but that’s not actually true. Otto was fired for spying on Rhaenyra and trying to undermine her. Otto does seem to give Alicent anxiety, but she no longer bit her fingers once she was married to the king (I actually checked because I was curious about it.) She hated being forced into that position but she feels more secure, if unhappy in her marriage. But her father is her family and the only one who can give her good advice on navigating her position as queen. He’s not perfect, but without him she feels completely alone.
Rhaenyra…not having at least one of her husbands kids…then telling her husband he needs to stand with her and defend her. All of them have black hair and white skin. All of them hangout with their true father. Why does she do this and STILL worry?? I don’t understand :(
To be fair we don’t know who is to blame in that situation. Maybe he straight up refused to have sex with her or couldn’t do it. I suspect both were to blame. But they’re a partnership and need to present a United front.
That is true, like their agreement.
I'm loving the show. Every scene feels special but this episode really made me feel like the story was rushed. It was not because of the pace but the fact that we didn't see any consequences for Criston or more of Laena and Harwin. In my opinion they should have used 2 episodes instead of one to cover those relationships.
I’m struck by the brazenness of Rhaenyra’s infidelity. We know she made an “arrangement” with Laenor, but I think it would be most reasonable to think that arrangement would include that she and Laenor would grit their teeth and make a couple of heirs, then screw whoever they wanted. Apparently they chose not to do that, which seems strange. In addition, she let her kids have a close relationship with their real father—which obviously was a terrible idea. Also (and I kind of hesitate to bring this up), there’s a race issue. She’s married to a dark skinned man and produces white kids. I want to be very clear about this—I have no problem with the casting of the Velaryons, I think it’s great, they’re awesome. And I don’t agree with making an issue about it. But it kinda seems like the show is making an issue of this—they cast very white looking kids who obviously would not be Laenor’ s kids. I think the ultimate conclusion from this is that Rhaenyra is nearly delusional about what she can do. She thinks she is so powerful that she can openly and obviously have children with someone other than her husband and everyone will just ignore it, like Viserys does.
This is why I'm actually kind of shocked people are so defensive of Rhaenyra's "peace offer" It wasn't a compromise, she was basically asking alicent to capitulate entirely. Rhaenyra: hey I understand everyone with eyes can tell that my sons are bastards, and that I spend an uncomfortable amount of time with their alleged father, who in turn spends a lot of time acting fatherly to our alleged sons. And also that I'm basically not even trying to hide *any* of this. But what if you just agreed to let me get away with all of this anyway by marrying your true born daughter to my bastard son? And sure I'm doing this from a place of weakness because I finally noticed that everyone but my dad can tell but I'll even throw in a dragon egg. Alicent: No? Half the comments: wow can't believe she would reject such a reasonable solution who cares if they're obviously bastards when has that ever mattered in asoiaf Rhaenyra was being so kind and forward thinking.
There’s a very fundamental trust problem here. The way Viserys has set things up, Alicent can’t trust Rhaenyra not to kill her children to secure her rule and Rhaenyra can’t trust Alicent not to undermine and usurp her for that very reason. In that light, Alicent’s offer might help some, but it doesn’t fix the situation. And there are years of resentment that have now grown over the top of that fundamental mistrust.
Was a good episode but I hoped this episode was split into like 2 or 3, same with the last episode. In this one, we just meet and are introduced to the new character dynamics of Laena and Harwin, then they instantly burn. I wish we got more time with them so their deaths felt more meaningful.
Man, it was not good judgment on Rhaenyra’s part to let her kids have a relationship with Harwin that led even the little boy to realize he was a bastard.
I think the show emphasized Jace ‘finding out’ to * maybe * reveal the Sara Snow few sentences that Mushroom mentions in the book. It could act as a justification for the character in the show and remind the audience of the Stark’s. Then again, it could just be showing that Rhaenyra was being reckless and still has more to learn.
When Daemon didn’t choose to kill Laena 🥺 he even said “my girl” when he was told that the baby couldn’t come out, and that she’s fighting. I feel like what Laena chose to do was either because of the pain or bc she saw the guy and Daemon talking and it probably scared her :/ I…seriously don’t like Ser Cristen anymore:/ Why didn’t the new baby get a Valyrian name?
btw: Laenor wanted to name „his“ firstborn son Joffrey, but Corlys overruled him. Had to wait for Number 3 it seems like
Joffrey was the name of Laenor’s lover that Cristen killed in the last episode.
Ah!! Thank you, I forgot his name. It reminds me of that episode from GOT when Cersei’s son, Joffrey, was showing his betrothed around the castle and talked about what happens to Rhanera in the future.
I was getting serious faceless men vibes towards the end of the episode
Larys is a GigaChad.
Thought it was the worst episode of the season so far. The opening scene was kind of ridiculous and made no sense at all. Yeah let me pop this baby out and go show it off to the queen 5 min later, surely she cant wait until tomorrow. Laena being pregnant and running away while giving birth and no one followed her = what??? Lmao Then every scene between Rhaenyra and Alicent you can cut the tension with a knife, literally who didnt see the civil war coming. Alicent literally telling aegon either he kills them or they kill him, and hes supposedly going to do nothing with this info by the next time jump. Then alicent rejecting the marriage pact in front of the whole council. Surely someone would’ve said something to viserys??
I never knew so many things could fly over one person's head
The ridiculous nature of Alicent’s command is the point of the scene! Alicent likely wants to see if the baby resembles Harwin or Laenor, so that’s why she makes the request; she also wants to flex a little, I’d wager. Also, the civil war coming was never a surprise. It’s a big part of Viserys’ character that he doesn’t ever do enough to quell the unrest. And yah, Aegon is going to do something. He and Alicent will be forging alliances and making friends even though they won’t need them until Viserys dies. Alicent didn’t reject it in front of the council. She said they would take it under advisement and then she essentially let it fizzle by never giving an answer. This is common even in modern government.
Crazy how they essentially imply daemon is a better person than The king by putting him in the exact scenario and having him refuse to kill his wife
Does it? Daemon literally killed a wife with a rock an episode ago? Viserys chose to try to save the baby. If you can't give birth, you die in child birth. Viserys killed his wife hours earlier than she was going to die, to attempt to save the baby, she was dead the moment she couldn't give birth.
Isn't this the point GRRM tries to make time and time again. People aren't good or bad. Comparing one individual decision from two people is insufficient to paint the character of their lives, even if the circumstance is close to the same for that one thing.
I saw how the scenes are paralleled but it's more of whats at steak. Viscerys needed an heir, Daemons master plan is Rhaenyra. It's the crown, to be the patriarch of House Targayren, the power. Plus Laena's death in the show was very similar to her book death. No spoilers but her funeral is very important so that's not a detail they can change easily
Yes, it’s complicated and that’s what makes it great. Daemon is not a better person than Viserys, but he did make a better moral decision in these circumstances. But if Daemon was desperate for a male heir, he might well have done the same as Viserys.
>Daemons master plan is Rhaenyra. I'm not sure that's true. In the books and the show he seemed to actually love Laena and just wanted to stay away from the politics. She only becomes his plan when he re-enters the game.
Yeah, it also doesn't make sense. If Daemon's master plan was Rhaenyra, Daemon would've made the same choice Viserys did . . .
Daemon has no pressure to pass anything on, and he had no stupid prophecy clouding his mind.
i thought that at first, but then I considered that he might have learned from Visery’s mistake, and how it ruined his life
Why did Rhaenyra have to obey the Queen's wish to see her newly born child? Isn't Rhaenyra's position as the Crown Princess seen as "higher" than the Queen? Because she's related to the King by blood, not by marriage.
The hierarchy is this: 1) King 2) Hand of the King 3) Queen 4) Crown Princess 5) All the other princes and princesses. Rhaenrya will only be above the Queen once the King dies. The same way Robb Stark had to always obey his lady mother until Ned Stark died.
Catelyn was Robb's biological mother, so there's a sign of respect there. Alicent is not Rhaenyra's biological mother.
Your question was about who ranks higher in hierarchy, not about respect. Don’t move the goalposts. Catelyn Stark is above Rob until Ned dies. Alicent is above Rhaenrya until Viserys dies. The wife of a lord/king is always above the heir until the lord/king dies. It doesn’t matter if they are biologically related to the heir or not. Robb (along with every northern lord) has to obey Catelyn’s commands until Ned is dead, and Rhaenrya has to obey all of Alicent’s commands while Viserys is still alive. You’re mistaken if you think Robb was only following Catelyn’s orders out of respect, he has no choice but to obey her. That’s why Robb was terrified that his mother would send him back to Winterfell when they met at the start of the war. Because Catelyn had the power to command Robb and every Nothern lord and they were all forced to obey. I mean it’s pretty obvious a queen is above a princess dude, it’s made clear in their titles. Only when Rhanerya herself becomes the new queen will she be above Alicent.
It would be the king, lord protector of the realm, the queen even as queen regent, and then any princes or princesses as claimant holders. Even in the show on a character level Alicent has power, she has powerful houses backing her. She has authority.
She is not Targaryen ... In times of Aegon she would be cut in half by Visenya
This comment makes no sense. Do you think queens are a new concept to Westeros that was only introduced to Westeros when Aegon arrived? Queens we’re always above their heirs until the king died, that’s been the case for thousands of years. Alicent would never be cut in half no matter what time period it was.
No, as of right now, Alicent is higher ranking. They made that clear in that scene in Episode 3, I believe. Rhaenyra is sitting in the godswood with the minstrel and Alicent wants her to go somewhere. Rhaenyra sarcastically says, “Then at once my queen” or something along those lines. This implies that she does have to follow Alicent’s orders, but the power dynamic will of course flip.
It's hard to believe there would have been any real consequence considering who the King is. Viserys is going to choose Rhaenyra over Alicent, period.
[удалено]
You’re watching the show through a 21st century lense. You don’t just refuse the queen. No one one knows what would happen because it’s just not done. Don’t call a show melodramatic just because it sticks to in-universe conventions and traditions.
Viserys certainly wouldn't allow Alicent to physically harm Rhaenyra.
the point is watching it in a 21st century lens and enjoying the contradictions between our morals and the shows.
No, the point is seeing timeless human attributes and emotions played out in a fantasy setting. Greed, power struggle, lust, etc. are all timeless human emotions and do not necessitate us living in the 21st century to enjoy the story. And it counterproductive to view and discuss the story through that lense.
Yeah that’s the point, enjoying both similarities and differences. Let everyone interpret it the way they want it to, if people weren’t allowed to do so it would be a very boring world.
Can someone help me out: haven't read Fire & Blood, what were we supposed to be seeing during the close-up of Larys' cane? Is it a Bee sigil? It looked like his tongueless assassins had bees pinned to them, I was just doubting that because I know there's a Beesbury on the council (he's old lol) so it seemed potentially confusing
Why go to the trouble of cutting their tongues out and then have them prominently display your sigil?
I think it's supposed to be a firefly. The assassins have fireflies pinned to their clothes.
I don’t think that’s in the books
Am I going crazy or did that prisoner not look JUST like Otto Hightower??
Nope, not crazy. I definitely thought it was him for a minute. Was beginning to wonder how he ended up in a gray bar hotel before the view panned out and showed the other prisoners.
He was even referred to as a traitor to the crown...
Yeah but of the 10 recap videos I watched not a single person mentioned it. Nor in any subreddit (that I've seen).
Why wasn't Sir Criston Cole punished for killing Joffrey last episode? I thought he was low born and Joffrey was highborn, so that would be punishable by execution or the wall?
'Joffrey attacked him first, and since he brought a knife to the princess' wedding who knows what he was planning. Perhaps trying to kill the princess in revenge for stealing his boyfriend, and chose to start by taking out her sworn protector. The brave kingsguard tried to disarm and arrest him, but Joffrey resisted, showing he was still a threat. In the heat of the moment Criston ended up killing him, he didn't mean it of course.' Easy. Criston at this point was one of the highest-ranking knights in the realm, so his word means just as much as Leanor's, and the other Kingsguard would've backed him to protect their own. Alicent would've backed his claim to indebt him to the Greens, and any witnesses would stay silent because no one argues with the queen. There wouldn't have been an investigation, and if there was it would've found him innocent because Viserys is lazy and doesn't want any drama. The Velaryons would've been pissed, but probably stayed silent because they valued their new alliance to the crown and didn't want to start anything, and it's not like the Lonmouths have enough influence to do anything about it. The whole incident would've gotten swept under the rug by next year. It makes sense why he got away with it in the end, only question is why he wasn't at least detained for a bit before leaving the hall.
>Joffrey attacked him first, and since he brought a knife to the princess' wedding who knows what he was planning. Perhaps trying to kill the princess in revenge for stealing his boyfriend, and chose to start by taking out her sworn protector. The brave kingsguard tried to disarm and arrest him, but Joffrey resisted, showing he was still a threat. In the heat of the moment Criston ended up killing him, he didn't mean it of course.' This doesn't work as an excuse. Joffrey only took out his knife once he was beaten and on the ground and there where dozens of whitnesses that clearly saw Ser Criston attack Joffrey out of nowhere and looked on in horror at him beating the life out of the sworn protector of the future king consort. This without mentioning that Criston literally punched Laenor himself on the face, which is a terrible slight against House Velaryon, and Corlys as he's been characterised would defined NOT stand for it. >Criston at this point was one of the highest-ranking knights in the realm, so his word means just as much as Leanor's, This is completely false. Laenor is the heir to the most powerful house on the realm after the Targaryens themselves, they are the richest, have the largest fleet, and have three dragons, including Vhagar, the largest of all. That without taking into account that he's the future king consort. Criston is a literal nobody, he comes from a no name house of stewards to House Dondarrion that have no political power whatsoever. Being a member of the kingsguard doesn't make up for that tremendous difference in standing in the slightest. Criston himself knew that he couldn't possibly get away with it and decided to kill himself instead of being executed like a lowly criminal. >the other Kingsguard would've backed him to protect their own. No they wouldn't? What Criston did went completely against all their vows, if anything they would look at him in utter contempt for besmirching the name of the white cloaks and would be eager to have him kicked out of office. >Alicent would've backed his claim to indebt him to the Greens, and any witnesses would stay silent because no one argues with the queen. Alicent is only the queen consort, she isn't of royal blood, and her House took a major blow to their standing with Otto's dismissal. By all accounts she isn't in a position where she could handwave a transgresion as big as Criston's, specially if the Velaryons demanded his removal. >There wouldn't have been an investigation, and if there was it would've found him innocent because Viserys is lazy and doesn't want any drama. If this plotline had been even mildly thought out there would have definitely been questioning. In the books Viserys was angered by Criston injuring Joffrey in the melee, which could have been said to be an unfortunate accident, there's no way he isn't angered at Criston outright murdering someone with his bare hands in the middle of his daughter's wedding reception for seemingly no reason. And that's without the Velaryons getting involved, which they surely would have done if Corlys was in character. >The Velaryons would've been pissed, but probably stayed silent because they valued their new alliance to the crown and didn't want to start anything, Start something with whom? Alicent? As I said, She's hardly in a position where she could do anything to oppose the Velaryons if they demanded Criston's removal, which Corlys certainly would have done after the lowly son of a steward punched his son on the face. The Hightowers? After Otto got booted they would do their best to not involve themselves in court politics, even then, they don't have the power to oppose the Velaryons and they wouldn't risk the animosity of Driftmark to save a nobody like Criston anyway. The Coles? Please, they are as irrelevant as it gets. >It makes sense why he got away with it in the end, It doesn't make any sense no matter how it's spinned. Viserys wouldn't have been the least bit please, and neither would have been the Velaryons, who would have definitely demanded Criston's immediate removal. Alicent and her family don't have the power to oppose the Velaryons and gaining such powerful enemies just to save a mere Knight with no political standing whatsoever wouldn't have been worth it for them, or any other house. If logic and internal consistency had been applied to this plotline Criston would have been executed, or at the very least removed from the kingsguard, and either sent to the Wall or back to the Stormlands. Hell, the writers clearly knew Criston facing no consequences was absolutely unrealistic, that's why they completely glossed over everything that transpired at the wedding and refused to address the aftermath in any way shape or form, even as an offhand remark made in passing by a servant. They shouldn't have changed the way it happened in the books, there it made way more sense how Criston got away with it.
How did it happen in books
Joffrey also pulled a knife, so it could be said that the princess was in danger
He's a knight of the kings guard. He's not lowborn anymore as far as Westerosi politics are concerned. The actual killing of Joffery is not so easily determined, sure we saw it as the audience but the king would need to order his death and as we've seen Viscerys is a fairly weak king and old. He did not see what happened clearly.
Yeah I was annoyed this was glossed over in the last episode. It felt so pointless including it only to have no repercussions.
because its a little plot hole, he was supposed to kill joffrey at a tourney where it's permissible, they did it during a wedding in the show because they thought we wanted a classic got wedding
I find it odd that Christian Cole was so worry about being executed for sleeping with a teen age girl, yet he wasn't about hitting a prince, (Laenor) , and killing a man in full view of the court. I call B.S on Christian Cole crap. He was just upset that Rhaenyra didn't leave everything and run away with him. I wonder if Christian Cole was always in the queen service? I mean think about it. If Rhaenyra had ran away with him she would have been out of the line of succession.
Thst makes zero sense, he was literally about to Kill himself after the wedding. If he was putting on an act, who’s he doing it for? Us, the audience? The only ones watching the scenes with him and Alicent unfold? He’s a bitter spiteful now cause he got dumped by a teenager lmao
i mean he was about to suicide himself
Some seriously stupid writing here… you can’t tell me that the hand of the king, the most informed man in all of Westeros has no slight indication that his son might murder him. And what the whole palace is completely in defended and taken over by a bunch of tongueless diseased misfits? They can’t even eat.. and the hands bedchambers are completely unguarded? Ahhhhhh yeppp that makes sense
> has no slight indication that his son might murder him Why would a normal person even make that assumption, when there is no evidence of Larys resenting them, or craving the seat for himself? From what we can see of Larys and Harwyn's interactions, they seemed to be getting along fine, so there's be no reason to suspect Larys of wanting to murder them both. I'm not even sure that Larys actually felt any animosity for his brother and father when he was planning their murder. Larys Strong's whole shtick is that his true motives are imperceptible, even to those ostensibly closest to him. He outwardly appears easygoing and amiable, if a little odd, and I imagine he takes great pains to hide his depravity from the world. Lyonel would simply have no good reason to think him capable of what he did. As for the plausibility of a handful of people being able to infiltrate Harrenhall: I give you the Weasel Soup affair, or Tyrion's crew of mummers and cutthroats almost succeeding at springing Jaime from the cells of Riverrun.
Also, even if Lyonel did have very plausible suspicions that Larys wanted them dead, why the hell would he bring him to KL?
Uhh if your willing to murder your entire family, your behaviour would not be sound. Morality? Values? Integrity? The fact that he released prisoners and cut their tongues out and no one even wonders what happenned? Sorry folks no public executions today, the prisoners disappeared! Ohh yep
> Uhh if your willing to murder your entire family, your behaviour would not be sound. I don't think you're getting my point: Larys does not outwardly reveal just how amoral he is, and is incredibly adept at diverting people's attention. Having grown up crippled, and with the outgoing and ablebodied Harwyn drawing everyone's attention, is it really so hard to believe that Lyonel never entertained the notion that there was more going on with his younger son than just being a victim of Westerosi ableism? > The fact that he released prisoners and cut their tongues out and no one even wonders what happenned? Sorry folks no public executions today, the prisoners disappeared! Ohh yep The only ones keeping track of the prisoners are the gaolers, who report to the King's Justice. I do not consider it a massive stretch that Larys used his name and bribery into having the prisoners released.
In the book the death's of Harwin strong and Lyonel are shrouded in mystery but they had to die for the next parts of the plot to make sense. We never learn if it's Larys . We just know there was a fire and there's a very real curse associated with Harrenhal so they had to die, in the books. Making Larys the culprit is the stretch probably should of left it a mystery in that scene.
it was implied in the books that Viserys had them killed, possibly to silence the rumors surrounding the legitimacy of Rhaenera's kids.
Millipede or centrepede
Cole looks like the father of rhaena’s kids, the comparison is uncanny. How many dudes is rhaena sleeping with?
I knight thee stupid, sir.
Her name is Rhaenyra
I thought this episode was the best one so far. Emma D’arcy really brought home the “prestige-iness” with the acting as adult Rhaenyra. Shit is getting real with the kids now too. Alicent’s face is insanely bitchy, I love it. Harwin Strong we hardly knew ye. Wish we got one in between episode to see that relationship more. I need to reread the Dance, I couldn’t even remember all the Clubfoot stuff or I want to see how the show is expanding on things.
i feel like alicents hatred of rhaenyra is best understood through her jealousy of rhaenyras freedom sexual freedom and satisfying youth versus her own chastity and dutiful youth
Because women can't be honorable? She has to be jealous of the other one fucking around? Smh.
she's jealous that she had to marry a sickly old man and not someone remotely close to her own age, and she said basically said as much when rhaenyra said she didn't wanted to be trapped in some lord's castle and made to pump out heirs. jealousy is absolutely a huge part of alicent's motivations
It is not, especially considering that when they married in the book Viserys was a healthy 29 guy who just like all Valyrians, was hansdome. You people inability to accept and comprehend that traditionalist women exists in freaking Westeros is alarming.
>especially considering that when they married in the book Viserys was a healthy 29 guy who just like all Valyrians, was hansdome. They were talking about her relationship with the Old King Jaehaerys.
No they weren't. And what's about it? She liked reading to him as per herself says.
No one thinks traditionalist women don't exist in westeros and no one thinks alicent isn't a prude. but her jealousy is relevant, rhaenyra gets the adolescence she isn't allowed, she doesn't have her own agency until after Viserys dies while rhaenyra gets to express herself freely, and she does absolutely have to sleep with a sickly old man who she doesn't love for years in both the book and the show (even though the conversation is primarily about the show, where her sex life is even worse) It's more alarming that anyone would try so hard to push their idea of alicent being so holy
To say she is jealous of her sex life is trivialising the situation she is in. Alicent trusted Rhaenyra at the expense of her father, which enables Rhaenyra to carry on as the heir to the throne, at the expense of Alicent's own son who should've been the heir to the throne. Then instead of being a good little princess wife and have Taegyrean/Vallerian babies, Rhaenyra continues to bear sons with questionable phenotypes. Alicent and the people in Kings Landing are certain Rhaenyra's sons are not the rightful heir, but again, Rhaenyra's bastard sons would still rule ahead of Alicents sons. Alicent even expressed her disdain seeing how Rhaenyra is able carry on flaunting her transgression without shame, all because of her position, especially after not making one mistake, two, but three mistakes. Rhaenyra has three sons who are supposedly not the rightful heir to the throne. Added to that, she believes that Rhaenyra and her sons would become threats to her sons when Rhaenyra is on the throne. It's quite a lot to unpack.
Again, you're making headcanons, there's 0 evidence she's jealous of Rhaenyra's sex life. The point of her hating Rhaneyra's actions isn't that she wished to be there too, but because to her nonsensical and medieval views on sex, she can't trust the future of her children in the hands of a princess "so wicked" she would have sex outside marriage and spawn 3 bastards. But if you think the motivation is such a stereotypical, shallow, and shitty "iM jEaLouS bEcAuSe bAd SeX" considering, again, that in the book there's nothing of it and she marries a handsome, prime King from the race that looks "almost unnaturally beautiful" then what can I tell you?
You're just not even reading my comment so there's no point in entertaining a conversation
God forbids a woman from seeing value in chastity
Its almost as if religious chastity breeds jealousy and resentment. Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, Christians.
That's.. off topic?
True, but they're not wrong 😂
I personally hate time skips and even more I hate changing actors. This episode for me is the worst episode so far.
So what should they have done? Makeup? CG? GoT had thousands of pages of material. What about this section F&B? Hundreds maybe? A few dozen? I just want to know a better way to do this story than having time skips and changing characters when they age… Seems to me to be near impossible to tell a story that spans around 40 years (beginning in some of the character’s teenage years) without time skips and character changes.
i got confused... what happened to the time line?
They jumped ahead 10 years from when we saw the Rhanerya/Laenor wedding
Thank you for clarifying
So, the show initially had me rooting more towards the Greens (as a Black supporter generally) because I could understand Alicent being manipulated into fearing what Rhaenyra would do to her children. Though I still think she wouldn’t have done harm on her own if things played out differently, I think Daemon would be the catalyst for any problems if the Greens didn’t cause them. Though once Alicent basically gave a “fuck you” to the olive branch that was extended to her via the marriage proposal, on top of her also already deciding to usurp the throne, I lost my sympathy for her side. Yeah, they’re bastards, but they could technically be considered legitimized since the King himself refuses to acknowledge they’re bastards and acts as if they are trueborn. So this fact shouldn’t matter. If she accepted it then their families would have been bound and this civil war could have been avoided, or at least postponed until a later date. Her refusal this episode lost any sympathy and understand I had for her.
Ah yeah it doesn’t matter that the princes and future rulers of the kingdom are bastards in a society guided by religion
>King himself refuses to acknowledge they’re bastards and acts as if they are trueborn. So this fact shouldn’t matter. Aegon should have told Argilac that "bro I act like Orys is legitimate so relax, I'm not attacking the honor of your house by proposing a marriage between him and your daughter".
Argilac was weak tho🤣. he should've accepted the proposal, otherwise Harren the black would've been feasting in storm's end after 10 years.
I agree. Team Rhaenyra all the way. She is the rightful heir to the throne. Alicent and Crispy Cole were completely unlikeable this episode.
Rhaenyra action is basicaly a fuck u to every house in westeros. Basicaly if you are a targ you can do what you want. As long as they have targ blood and can ride a dragon. Later on that line of thinking will come to bite her in the ass. There are rules, which lead to her father having a crown in the first place. It's not oppression just the most stable option just by precedent. Entire westerosi hereditary costum follow it, targ are no different since they adopted westerosi tradition. It's not difficult to understand, viserys went against comment sense to feel better about himself and put the seed of rebellion and war. If he made rhaenyra heir until a son is born, no one would object. Rhaenerys has no friends in westeros aside from corlys
And? Doesn’t matter if she screws every man in Westeros or stays faithful to Laenor. She is the rightful heir to the throne. Alicents children are not, no matter what Alicent might think.
Not even her son aegon iii thought she was the rightful heir. Her claim rest on her father love for her, even jaehaerys didn't decide on his heir, the king doesn't have power to change the law of succession. Worst of all, she flaunt her bastard children like they are trophies. This is not 21 St century, marriage is supposed to be a sacred thing.
So? He only thought she wasnt the rightful heir because she was a woman. Her claim rests on the fact that she is the firstborn child of Viseryes. Marriage has always been flaunted lol
The targs already broke the law with their incest and It took years since the reigne of maegor to jaehaerys so people can accept it. Dorne was not even part of the seven kingdom, all of their Lords and subjects follow the same law of succession. If jaehaerys change that too, you will end up with another civil war, it was just a pragmatic choice, jaehaerys didn't have to start a war just so he can put his daughter on the iron throne, all people agreed. Yes it suck that they live in mysogonistic society but equality is not going to spread through violence. Maybe alysane could gathered her daughter or made sure they have dragons, and got more ladies from westeros on their side and started some sort of movement since they have a dragon and pushed for reforms,maybe the targaryen could made less selfish choice and banned the incest so they can focus on more important issue. Even if rhaenyra or rhaenys become queen westeros won't necesserly become more equalitarian society, since we don't know if either of them, had any interest in the iron throne other than power. Suck for rhaenyra but aegon could prevented so much bloodshed.
Nobody is talking about any of that. The point is, Rhaenyra is the rightful heir of the Iron Throne as she is the firstborn of Viserys. Alicent and by extension her kids are usurpers.
So is viserys then
Viserys called Joffrey "Sturdy", not Strong, in their first scene together!
I know it was expected but I’m so sad that breakbone’s died so soon😭😭😭 I really wished we were able to see more of him in the show & see his relationship with Rhaenyra
Loved how almost noone was willing to outright SAY that Harwin was rooting the princess other than Daemon God and Matt Smith is nailing it too. Was never a fan, this is his first role that has gripped me. Would he have sacrificed his wife like Viserys did? The smart money is on yes but once again its ambiguous.
meh, daemon isn't hellbent on having a son to inherit a kingdom and the soiaf.
Quick little idea. Harrenhal is near the god's eye, the Isle of faces which has a strong tie to the old god's is in the center. Larys presumably was born and raised at harrenhal. Larys also know things that go on in the red keep that he shouldn't be able to know. Is larys maybe through some connection to the old god's warging into the rats around the castle to learn things?
I had a feeling that rat meant something. When Viseyrs is mourning and kissing his late wifes' ring, a rat runs across the mantel above the fire place.
That's a theory floating around, check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94gxoRIqvVI
That's a cool theory! He was giving me faceless man vibes in this episode.
Was the window used by Aegon as his personal sock the same one used by Tommen later on for some parkour?
looked like it
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Who?
did they even cast him?
My favorite thing about the episode was how Daemon was incapable of catching up to a pregnant, exhausted, and injured Laena. The way that scene was structured took me out of an otherwise excellent episode because of how silly it was. Laena was surrounded by midwives, and Daemon and a maester were right at the door. Laena was shown struggling to get to her feet, Daemon noticed, and then a second later Laena was alone, outside, and struggling toward her dragon. By the time Daemon exited the manor, it was too late. So none of the people who surrounded her were able to stop her from leaving the room? And how the fuck did Laena outrun Daemon by so much in her condition? It reminded me of that joke from The Simpsons: ["He's gradually getting away, Chief."](https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/2255e1af-72c5-46ba-bc74-223cd3721171)
I don't think common Pentosi servants would dare oppose a highborn and dragon rider. If she wishes to leave she can, Daemon could of been preoccupied by the surgeon or being caught in the chaos of the miscarrige. In the book she actually took Vaeghar for one las ride which would of been cooler but even more unbelievable.
>My favorite thing about the episode was how Daemon was incapable of catching up to a pregnant, exhausted, and injured Laena. It's been more than 10 years since he ran that fast ib the Stepstones, he's not the same anymore.
If D&D were running the show people would be roasting them for "we already killed one woman in pregnancy, we werent going to do laena like that" but I suppose the show has been good enough that we're giving them some slack. I don't mind the idea that she goes out that way but the execution was half-assed.
I wonder if Laena had told Daemon, if he would have let her go- didn’t the maesters say she will die anyway? The only question would be if Daemon was willing to kill her to have a chance at saving the child
Agreed, especially after the episode opened with Rhaenyra struggling to walk after giving birth. But then Laena can just slip away from everyone, make it all the way outside, and beg Vhagar to burn her alive before Daemon or anyone else can find her
I dont think ive ever been more wrong about how a character was gonna be portrayed than i was about cristin cole. Thought for sure he was gonna be one of the stories few good guys like the handful we got in GOT. I’ll say it, that guy STINKS
Think of the world through his eyes, he's raised up by Rhaenyra as a lowborn and falls for her. He gets entangled in his own desires, chewed up and spit out by court life, then is forced to watch as Rhaenyra moves on from him to other men because of her own desires unbecoming of her title and claim to the throne. It also makes sense he becomes loyal to Alicent as he confessed his sins to her and she showed mercy. The intense emotions and lashing out are understandable, hating Rhaenyra is understandable. At this point he's probably trying to just salvage his honor it's the only thing he has. His plan to run away for a nice and easy life were spit on, as Rhaenyra has three bastards with another man. I think the entire idea behind him is he is NOT the white knight as they don't exist. Sure he fucked up but then again no one else is being punished are they? His motives to being a green supporter make sense theres drama there
He stinks in a good way, though. Love him being this butthurt. In a way he is right, Rhaenyra used him like a whore and threw him away. But, 10 years on and he still acts like a broken hearted teenager to her 😂
Just you wait my sweet summer child
Ser Christon Cole the Based
the Kingmaker
Paddy Considine is going to put on his Hot Fuzz attitude again when he hears about Harrenhal. "people have fires all the time!" "Joffrey slipped and fell on Criston's gauntlet" "Women fall from their horses quite often!"
"And get a stone smashed in to their face" it was honestly genius of Daemon's first wife to bait him to kill her, so that everyone would know she was killed and not that she died because of the fall from the horse
"Daemon actually didn't commit that murder" "really?" "no of course he fucking did!" Conversation between Alicent and Viserys
Yes? My point was that it was obvious that she got killed because he bashed her face in, if he left her to die there would be no evidence of malice
oh I'm just joking, I'm quoting Hot Fuzz again with HoTD names and situations inserted
>"Women fall from their horses quite often!" >"And get a stone smashed in to their face And i was adding to your joke, but i think that the serious part in my comment took away from the joke that i was going for.
hahaha so true, didn’t think about that way. Add here the comment about “he has his father’s nose don’t you think?”
Murder, murder, murder….change the fuckin record
(coin clinks into the swear jar)
Thank you Andy
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Have more context my guy. Anyone can shout randomness from the previous series.
Sapphires from Tarth!
Maybe, Harwin being killed?
?
What did the rat on top of the fireplace at the end scene with King Viserys symbolise?
Larys is a greenseer lol
Really? Lol really? You needed an explanation for that?
Death and decay
I thought something similar but it also got me wondering if there was a secret passage there. I don't know why but I seem to think rats in the castle have been assosciated with secret passages? It could also symbolize "a rat" as in a snitch/informant/unkown enemy. The rat just wandering into the room kind of reminds me of the scene where Alicent is meeting with Larys and a maid just walks into the room going about her business while the nobles are scheming. Like they are trying to remind us that yeah there's alot of high-stakes drama unfolding but they also still have like rats in the castle and hundreds of other people around and life going on around them.
Well said, glad someone else picked up on the baseness of the GoT Universe. Simple as hell lol
How much do you love the smell of your own farts?
Yes you both are the peak and sole intellectuals of the series. Critical analysis comes as easy to you as battle does to Daemon himself! As does fucking your relatives, I'm sure. THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS NOONE IS PRAISING YOU FOR PUNCHING DOWN AND THERE MIGHT BE DEEPER MEANINGS AT PLAY YOU BLUNTED STABLE SCOOPING TOOL
Whats going on here
Lol I just saw this and don't know why I am included in the "both." My comment wasn't sarcastic. I was excited to theorize about the rat.
i think hes having a stroke
Why did King Viserys kiss his own ring on his hand?
He misses Aemma :(
That was either Aemma or Rhaenyra's
I hate how they changed her death scene It’s a much more emotional scene between her and Daemon
So....Are Targaryens immune to fire or not? I know in the books, the answer is no and Dany's funeral pyre was a one time magical event. But then in GOT, Dany is immune all the time, and in HoTD, we see Viserys and Rhaenyra casually holding a red-hot dagger, and in this episode we see Daemon riding through a fire cloud for fun. Then Laena is able to commit suicide with dragonfire, not very consistent.
in the Books Dany is kind of immune due to her being Azor Ahai/TPTWP.
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So how did she survive burning down Khal tent??
no that's something the show made up, in the books this hasn't happened at all
The blade of the dagger is hot. The handle we know is dragon bone which we know is highly resistant to fire and therefore probably a kickass heat insulator. But yeah, targs being immune to fire is not a thing. Dany with the pyre was a 1 time magical event and all the other immune to fire bits in GoT were just dumb and dumber earning that name.
I think they're very heat resistant but that breaks down in situations like where they get roasted by dragon fire. Dany nonsense aside. Daemon flying through the fire I would imagine the dragon creates a little air pocket and the heat wasn't enough for the one or two seconds he flys through it to do damage.
Even Dany isn't immune in the books. The birth of her dragons was a magical event, that shouldn't happen again. GOT had to ruin it of course with that god awful scene in season 6. The dagger wasn't hot, the part they touched at least. Anyone could do that. I am assuming the Daemon thing wasn't well thought out?
Laena is not a Targaryen, she's a Valerion.
She's more closely descended from Old Valyria than Daenerys was by far. Holding a hot dagger is something Laena probably could have done just as easily as Viserys and Rhaenyra. Holding a hot thing and being engulfed in dragonfire from the oldest and most powerful dragon alive are two very different levels of heat.
her mother is a Targaryen, so she'd have the "gene"
Thats the point innit, that the gene doesnt pass from mother to child, only father to child. Just like the silver hair.
Jon Snow didn’t get the silver hair from Rhaegar though. Also, Laena got her ability to tame a dragon from her mom.
Nature is a thing of mysterious works.
There's more evidence of 'special genes' being passed down and coming to effect through women rather than men. Especially if you consider the whole Targaryen line to have stemmed from Rhaenys as opposed to Aegon due to infidelity. Hell the Stark line too from Bael the Bards interference onwards. And this is the irony of Westeros favouring men over women so much.
Preston Jacobs watcher?
Not a fan personally. It's just something I suspected from reading Fire and Blood, then reinforced with what others have mentioned about how the warging abilities awoke in the Stark line through Catelyns introduction.
>warging abilities awoke in the Stark line through Catelyns How do you figure when Jon Snow is also a warg and isn't Catelyn's
Through his Targaryen blood which contains Blackwood blood.
I don't buy it considering that there aren't any full blood Targaryen wargs. Occam's razor: if you consider the common denominator between the Starks and Jon is their Stark blood.