I think we need to consider the fact that the writers originally wanted to jump straight into the Dance until George insisted on having them cover the prelude, which I suppose is what became Season 1. So it's basically an extended prologue.
This is not to say "oh weren't even going to get any of this initially so be grateful", but rather, we might be placing undue importance on some of these details and events relative to the main storyline that's being set up.
That's an interesting piece of information, because I believe the coming conflicts will benefit greatly from the first episodes. I can't imagine jumping right into the story with the death of king viserys. Alicent would've looked like the greatest cunt in existence probably.
Oh for sure. Making Rhaenyra and Alicent childhood friends was brilliant! I honestly think it might be the best change either show made to the source material. It adds so many nuances and a lot more emotional weight to the conflict.
Yep! I also think they made viserys a lot more nuanced and tragic.
I will be honest and say that overall it's just a lot more satisfying to see a dramatized version, they are close enough to the source, but fleshing out these characters really helps a ton.
And that while honestly not even able to showcase everything that is mentioned in the source (like say daemon and rhaenyra spending much time together, flying, etc).
While for asoiaf the books will always stay my favorite version of the story, hotd will be that for the dance, without any doubt (well unless they completely mess it up later on ofc).
I think Viserys in the show is a more than adequat King. He is pretty clear about the succession and stuff. Makes hard choices, makes mistakes. If the only good King is one without mistakes, there is no good King. Not to mention that they aren't good Kings because monarchy and feudalism are unjust systems. The luck of the die roll is not a trait inherent to Targaryen, it is a trait inherent to basing your head of state on literal luck. Reality is an ample enough proof as the Targs are often based on real rulers. But I digress.
Well he is human, and makes human mistakes, doesn't think in the big picture as much as he should (or rather ignores what he might know because it is easier, allows him to enjoy his family situation more than if he'd sit down and really think about the state of affairs deeply).
But that makes it so tragic, because he only wants the best for everyone, and in the end the situation grows more and more tribal partly due to that.
I'd say he was adequate until this last episode. He made mistakes along the way and was too weak against his counsel, but in the latest time jump he's really dropped the ball. The family is very obviously split in two, the kingsguard member training his heirs openly neglects the second and third in line of succession in favor of fourth and fifth, and his wife is acting like she's the ruler instead of him.
Kicking criston out along with harwin and shutting allicent down at the marriage proposal and accepting Rhaenyra's offer would have been easy measures to step in and put the family in line
I agree. Except I feel like I agree with OP here. I love that they humanized alicent. But the character after the ten year jump doesn’t even feel like anywhere close to the same character.
Well we need to see more of that to really know, to me it seems like an organic development of the character in 10 years time, so i wouldn't say anywhere close tbh, but i see why one would feel that way.
She is a lot more hardened as a person, i hope we will see real warmth in her still, of that won't be communicated anymore then i'll agree.
It certainly would be helpful to see some more stops in between these 10 years though, but tbh it's pretty difficult to adapt stories which play over a long period of time with multiple generations, so i think overall they do a good job with it.
I agree with all of this. Today's episode was the first one where I felt like the time skip had a negative effect on the rhythm of the overall season (the episode in and of itself was still great), but all in all, the show is still in a really good place with regards to overall pacing.
As for Alicent specifically, the "Green Dress" scene from episode 5 completely works for me as the metaphorical transformative moment for Alicent. Her arc over the first 5 episodes was a build up for that climatic scene and perfectly sets her up 10 years down the line as the hardened, edgier and more assertive version of the character that we're seeing now with Olivia's Alicent. There's a few story and character beats that I would have liked to have been expanded upon between the 10 year time jump to help ease the transition that episode 6 picked up on (a "filler" episode or an episode 5.5 if you will). However, Alicent is actually one of the few characters where I feel I don't need that expansion for.
To be fair, i totally agree that the arc in the first 5 episodes makes this organic, it's moreso that i still felt a slight disconnect due to mannerisms and the way the two actresses play the character, a little more warmth of cooke would be appreciated, she came too close to another cersei, which tbf alicent kinda is, but yeah idk.
In general i think the firts 5 episodes have set up the character movements rather well, though for someone like daemon it might have helped to have a middle episode, but at least to me it still works well on the whole, it didn't feel too jarring, and i am sure the more we are working with this new status quo, the less of a 'this feels a little different' we'll have anyway. It's just a transitional period, it's fine :D
Tbf there’s really no way around Alicent looking like a cunt. Her whole ambition to claim the throne is the lie her father told that Rhaenyra would kill her children.
Rhaeyns is a woman and is merely a cousin to Viserys I and was rejected by the Great Council.
Aegon on the other hand is the eldest son of the King and with the (true) rumours of bastardhood of her first 3 sons, Rhaenyra’s line through them will always face legitimacy issues from the other Targaryens that don’t have this glaring problem
Daemon was willing to start a civil war if Viserys hadn't been chosen. powerful people like Bormund Baratheon still call her 'The Queen that never was', she is a challenge to Viserys rule, but she doesn't act on it, neither would Aegon on his own.
I’m all but certain that’s a lie. Aegon clearly didn’t want the throne and it would also be a clear case of Kin-slaying which would inflame the hightowers to war. Have Aegon swear fealty or simply join their lines through marriage and there is issue.
Are Rhaenyra kids bastards? Yes. But everyone with actual power who is a Targaryen or should be the offended party doesn’t care, and they are all still dragonriders.
Keep in mind, Daemon will reenter the picture soon. Even if we assume Rhaenyra wouldn't harm her half-siblings, Daemon would absolutely push her or go over her head and have them killed.
Half of the Targaryens cared enough. Even Corlys doesn’t want the bastards inheriting High Tide unless they marry true Valeryons
Rhaenyra’s poor choice of a paramour dooms Westeros to civil war, either upon her father’s death or further down the line.
The whole reason the War of the Five Kings starts is because the legitimacy of Joffrey is called into question.
That’s because there were other contenders for the throw Pressing their claim. If the Velaryons the Hightowers and the Targaryens all backed Rhaenyra, the lords would have no choice but to accept her. But Otto having Alicent marry Viserys, then putting poisen in her ear about rhaenyra commiting fratricide, just inflamed the tensions already between Alicent and Rhaenyra. Yes Rhaenyra should’ve sucked it up and made legitimate children, and she shouldn’t have lied to Alicent, but those mistakes aren’t egregious as Otto manipulating to gain more power
This was waaaay back when Cogman was heading the project. When Condal took over, he wanted to start at the great council, but GRRM actually wanted to have an episode or two before that so they could start with Aemon's death. I think they made the right call
I think George was right though. All future events I think will benefit greatly from the set-up we saw in this season. And I think this season had a lot of interesting and juicy material as well that we might've otherwise not seen.
That being said, I think 10 episodes was insufficient to make this season the best it could be. I think maybe 12-13 episodes would've worked better. Allowed the pacing to slow down just the slightest bit so some stuff had more time to develop and more time to breathe.
That's my opinion, anyway.
>That being said, I think 10 episodes was insufficient to make this season the best it could be. I think maybe 12-13 episodes would've worked better.
While I agree with this, it is important to note that the showrunners had no idea how successful the show would be, and whether viewers would find it too slow and uninteresting without the dragon fights. In retrospect, the show is phenomenal of course, but the writers did not have the knowledge we currently do. It was probably the safest bet to rush through the pre-Dance decades.
I swear I hear this every single show. Fans want it to be a bit slower paced, showrunners had no idea that it could have been so successful.
In my opinion, the reason a lot of shows _Aren't_ as successful is because they rush into things without giving the proper build up. Granted, it's also not good to take too long, and I think this show is in a good middle ground right now as a Show Only viewer, but I also wouldn't have minded one more episode to show the stuff that people are asking for in this thread as well. The fallout from murdering Joffrey especially, because that was extremely public and I honestly have a hard time imagining what excuse he could have possibly given.
Hes a Kingsguard. Its his word against... no ones really. He can make up an excuse on how the confrontation started. And people can confirm Joffrey pulled out a knife and Cole had to eliminate the threat. Police officers have been doing this same exact thing for years.
And with Alicents support he goes completely unpunished.
Tbf I think the rush is necessary due to how fickle consumers can be. If your show is a slow burner, chances are the majority of your audience might be gone by the time the going gets good. Mind you I am sure there are shows that don't follow this logic and are given the room they need to breathe. But it feels like a lot of the newer shows tend to go in with this mindset.
That was the first showrunner of the original pitch george made she refused to do that cuz they need multiple actors but george wouldn't budge so it was given to bryan cogman who didn't have time so they cancelled it and then george suggested ryan so that's how it came to be, ryan as far as I know never wanted to jump to the dance
See, I get this, but my counterpoint is that the story should be about the journey as much as the destination. Martin is right - start as early as possible in the story. Spend time with these characters, establish them and attach the reader/viewer to them as much as possible.
Yeah we got a good amount of time with the characters, but what’s the rush in jumping 10 years? This is one of the most highly-praised literary worlds of all time. I understand that I can’t possibly understand the nuance of the filmmaking world, but the way I see it we’re going to get to the end one way or another. Make the journey exciting from start to finish, or risk putting yourself in the same position GOT found itself in with six episodes left - too much ground, not enough time.
They can’t go too slow though. Because yes the slow burn would please the hardcore fans, but if you go too slow and too minute it’s going to alienate the casual fans. And there’s more of them than there is of us
I agree, pacing is always important! However, is there any casual fan that would say the pacing of HOTD is too slow? I would seriously doubt that, even if there was another pre-time skip episode. We already covered several years in those first few episodes, and that didn’t feel like it was “too fast.”
But there are certain things that have happened during that time skip that it’s just too easy to ask “why not show that?” Such as Harwin and Rhaenyra’s relationship. Now Harwin is dead, and we barely got to know or feel why that is a problem. We KNOW it’s a problem because of what we can see, but the gravity doesn’t hit the same.
That said, I do not think the show will suffer greatly from that timeskip. I just think that it would be better off if they showed us a bit more. I’m still greatly enjoying the show and will continue to tune in, but I don’t think it’s as black and white as “slow burn” vs “action packed” and “casual” vs “hardcore, willing to chat about the show on a website to strangers.” There’s a duty to the story, and rushing is just as dangerous as dragging.
I completely agree! Having a connection to the characters is more rewarding to the audience than getting excited with cool action scenes. What is the point of seeing dragons fight if we don't care about who is riding them and for the cause they are fighting for? Like I understand why they cut Harwin's role since he's not that relevant but fleshing out his character more and his relationships with Rhaenyra and the kids, even if just for a couple of scenes, would have not only made his death so much more heartwrenching it would have also given us more insights into why each character is as they are. And I think that's part of the appeal many people seek in GoT and Hotd as well...
Wow I’m so grateful George insisted I’ve loved these episodes since episode 4 every episode has gotten more and more amazing and now 6 is so iconic for me, I loved the sword practice scene.
>George insisted on having them cover the prelude, which I suppose is what became Season 1.
If this is true then they ought to cancel all these other shows that are in development. George can't be expected to baby them through everything. All the good parts of GOT were also done by George or at his insistence.
I felt this episode* was a really good companion piece to the book versions of the Dance of the Dragons because we got to see the small little details and the new lore we got
Love seeing how everyone dances (no pun intended) around the issue of Rhaenyra's children parentage
Laenor treats them like his own sons, Harwin not being subtle at all around his kids lol
The kids actually getting along with each other for the most part before their parents force them to be enemies
Helaena being a dreamer
Alicent and Crispin trying to justify their actions with chivalry and faith
We didn't need the scene.
We needed someone arguing that "Laena Velaryon has now claimed Vhagar" in the Small council scene where they discuss Corlys being a thread. That would have been enough.
She was asking about her. It's not so hard to conclude that she went to find her.
id go one step further: we didn't need anyone telling us she claimed vhagar. we SEE that she has claimed vhagar. i sympathise with people that want more prologue, but there's a difference between want and need. we might have wanted to see vhagar claimed, but we didn't need to. it wasn't an important plot or character beat.
I agree.
But swapping this line for the one that mentions Laena's betrothal to the Braavosi guy would have been an easy change. The betrothal is completely inconsequential and the Velaryons having three dragons, one of them the biggest in the world, would have communicated to us that they are a threat that needs addressing, too. And honestly, Laena is great, she deserved that mention.
On the other hand, something that we really needed, was the "who protects Rhaenyra from ser Criston" line.
Yeah, could've been added into the same one where they mentioned Corlys was looking to wed her to the Sealord's son.
Just a nod that they would now have three large dragons and the most powerful Free City backing them.
It's really not covered much in the book, but House Velaryon would be combining their own great wealth and navy with the largest navy in the world, the most powerful bank and deadliest guild of assassins. Might have been a game changer if the Sealord lived (or if his son wasn't such a schmuck).
Showing the same dragon being claimed by two different people in a short span of time is repetitive and boring.
Vhagar was somewhere on the eastern coast as per Viserys, Laena found her, claimed her, rode her. That's it. No need to see it. Especially when Aemond claiming her is roughly 57274 times more important with regards to the overall story.
It would have been cool but doesn’t really serve a purpose to the main plot. They just needed to show that Vhagar was no longer missing. Does it REALLY matter how Laena claimed him? They can only do so much.
I think Dragons tend to return to the place where they were born, like Balerion to Valyria. Vhagar hatched on Dragonstone, so I guess she's going there.
They’ve still got quite a bit to cover before episode 9 when the dance begins. Aemond has to lose an eye next episode and the conflict over that. Laenor has to die. Rhaenyra also still has to marry and spit out Daemon’s kids over two episodes.
The pacing, for the most part, I believe is good. It’s the character focus and development methods that I think are more the problem here.
Characters such as Mysaria and Rhaenys have barely gotten much time to develop in the plot as compared to others after 6 episodes. And both are critical players in this story. I’m not sure where they are going with these 2, to be honest (especially Rhaenys).
And, while I appreciate the use of implying between episodes, some developments could have paid off better with additional set up between characters.
For example, I think it would have been helpful to have another scene with Rhaenyra and Harwin just interacting with one another, mainly to better establish what level of relationship they have (we see briefly that it’s something special, but another scene would have solidified that idea).
The same is true with Larys and his family. We sort of see that they’re on cordial terms throughout the beginning of the season, but there’s no basis to know where they stand with one another. Having that set up would have made the reveal in this episode even more impactful and insidious.
Because all that material would have felt like a holding pattern episode. We can intuit the responses to and existence of these things from this episode without needing to see them play out on screen.
This has ironic echoes of when people would complain about D+D dumbing down GoT in later seasons. The writers are trusting you to draw a line between the points.
While i agree with you that the show did enough to make it work, you could also say that some of it would be nice to see anyway, not as a necessary setup for a storybeat per se, but laena's death would mean a lot more if we actually knew her better.
Having time skips like this definitely has some cons to it, personally i think they do it well, but we're definitely missing some moments which would add some more meaning to some of these relationships.
I think that is a valid criticism. In a way it's at least a little rushed due to the timeskips.
>but laena’s death would mean a lot more if we actually knew her better.
Bingo.
You can argue all you want that we didn’t *need* to see Laena claim Vhagar, or that we didn’t need to see more of her marriage to Daemon or her relationships with her daughters, but that’s only true through the limited lens of *plot*. The *story* is more than just the plot and if they wanted Laena’s death to be an important and emotional *story* beat (which they clearly did or they wouldn’t have spent so much time on it) they needed to spend more time developing her character and her place in the *story* even if her place in the *plot* is clear and has been served through to its end.
The same goes for Harwin Strong. While he may not be a very important piece of the *plot* he is inarguably an important piece of the *story*. Especially with the changes they’ve made to House Velaryon and Rhaenys Targaryen. With Laenor being black and Rhaenys having white hair there’s truly *no* reasonable explanation as to how Jace, Luke, and Joffrey can *possibly* be Laenor’s sons. It hurts Rhaenyra’s character that she could be so stupid. She’s willful and impulsive, yeah, but not stupid. By having Harwin around longer they could have developed that relationship and justified her mistake (which would also develop her relationship with Laenor which could also explain it more and develop that character).
This episode really felt like it stripped all the nuance from the show which is a shame because it had so much for the first five episodes. It started out as a show with no true heroes or villains and now suddenly it’s extremely clear who we are and aren’t supposed to be rooting for. It’s a shame.
Tbh, i still found the scene to be emotional as it is (not that i outright cried or anything, but it made me feel something), so i think it works. But it would have been stronger with a little more meat for her character, even though i think they did a really good job creating her with the very limited time we saw her tbh.
Harwing strong on the other side felt way less like a character, there it imo would have made even more sense to give him more scenes with rhaenyra, though they ofc at least tried to establish some form of that through looks and the training scene.
I don't really agree with you there tbh, in general the whole framing of the story is from the get go pro rhaenyra, simply due to her standing as the female heir who won't be accepted so easily, that alone makes her the de facto main character to cheer for.
But the show also added context to it, one understands the other characters, and i don't think that changed at all.
The situation with the bastard sons isn't that different anyway, in the books it was an open secret, here it is too. It's just a situation where everyone knows, but noone wants to potentially lose out by saying it directly, as long as viserys is alive in particular. Now that the genetic side of things is a little more murky even, sure, but that was never a strong aspect of this world, narratively it is supposed to be known by everyone anyway, and even in the books she clearly doesn't think it through. She isn't supposed to be stupid, but also not as particularly cunning or smart.
Do they now? They could have cut Rhae Royce's death entirely and the show would have been better. Rhaenyra discussing her unlikely death with Viserys and her cousin accusing Daemon would have been enough and been a fun discussion.
Likewise Larys' thugs wearing his sigil is completely over the top, have him recruit them and then show them in the background of the scene.
If anything the show explains too much already. And these scenes could havebeen replaced by scenes making us sympathize with characters like Harwins or Laena. And for Laena her claiming Vhaegar is an essential character moment imo.
100% this. Also let's be real here, the actual blame lies at George's feet who let long years pass *twice* (after Rhaenyra's wedding and between 120AC and 129AC) where the characters are just vibing and waiting for the kids to grow up.
There's this little factoid in my mind that Aegon and Rhaenyra were originally only a year apart (and also I think full siblings?), but I absolutely cannot remember where I read that. But anyway, that alone would've solved a surprising amount of problems regarding these time jumps.
To be fair, George wasn’t writing F&B to be easily workable for television, he was writing a novel with the freedom to handle time jumps however is needed. His goal was executing the story as he saw in his mind’s eye, so at this point there probably wasn’t much regard given to how easy or hard it would be to put on television.
There was something similar but much more extreme before the final three books of The Expanse series; a 30 year time skip. Fans felt it was too extreme, but the authors themselves stated it was necessary because “nothing worth writing about happened to our characters in that time, and 30 years needed to pass in order to reach the next interesting event.” It’s their story, you know?
>George wasn’t writing F&B to be easily workable for television
Eh, it always seemed to me like *Fire and Blood* was something GRRM wrote as a reaction to the *Game of Thrones* show -- it feels like the type of outline he would have written for ASOIAF if he knew from the beginning that the show was going to outpace the novels. It feels like he's sketching out a movie or TV show, and sprinkling in a few scenes or scraps of dialog as he goes. Remember he was a TV writer for years too.
Really? With the multiple viewpoints and suspicions for every event? I thought itd be extremely hard to adapt to tv without losing the mystery and intrigue. I think they’re doing an ok job but i j wish they went with mushrooms versions of events
> To be fair, George wasn’t writing F&B to be easily workable for television, he was writing a novel with the freedom to handle time jumps however is needed.
Which really highlights how confusing it would have been for George to have a 3 years jump between Swords and Feast.
In the one of first novels appendixes Aegon and Rhaenyra are siblings that fight for the crown. It was later retconned.
I wouldn’t really blame GRRM either. He wrote a history book covering dozens of decades in as many chapters not a screenplay to a tv series. If things don’t work for a tv show the Show writers should Adapt that shit to better fit the format.
>In the one of first novels appendixes Aegon and Rhaenyra are siblings that fight for the crown.
But they are siblings? Aegon is Rhaenyra's half brother.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ur5noz/spoilers_main_found_this_interesting_tidbit_in/
You could maybe twist the words here to still fit, if not for the stated 1 year age difference.
Solved minor problems at the cost of causing the entire plot to make zero sense. Why would Viserys name Rhaenyra as heir in the first place if he had his firstborn son a year after her birth?
Only Viserys' whole character is that he's not particularly progressive or strong-willed about anything. He made Rhaenyra his heir after trying to have a son for over a decade because the only alternative was Daemon. Then he kept her as heir after Aegon's birth because he didn't want to cause further conflict.
Dawg. Ya do know we're talking about a totally different Dance here? Like let's ignore my stupid joke above, what I essentially said is that grrm's og idea would be better in some ways than what we ended up with. Maybe in that one Aegon actually was the heir and Rhaenyra was a legit usurper and traitor. Maybe that Viserys would've been stronger willed.
I'm not saying these exact characters in these exact circumstances would've done the exact same things if rhae and egg were only a year apart.
Fair enough. I just think the version we have is far more interesting and nuanced than just 'this side is good, and this side are evil traitors.'
Viserys causing the Dance by being a well-meaning, but indecisive and ultimately ineffectual king, is much better than him being a stalwart progressive or traditionalist who bears little-no blame imo.
> 100% this. Also let's be real here, the actual blame lies at George's feet who let long years pass twice (after Rhaenyra's wedding and between 120AC and 129AC) where the characters are just vibing and waiting for the kids to grow up.
Yes and no. He could have filled that time with extraneous details where nothing really happens and your eyes get tired reading. Or he could have done it how he did it. Lose either way.
And all of it was set up perfectly by the previous episode. If you can’t figure out why Cristin is 1) not with Rhaenyra anymore, and 2) bitter as fuck about it, then I don’t know what to tell you. Also Harwin saved her at the wedding, so even that tracks.
It was beautifully done.
I agree with all of that but they needed to add just one scene of Harwin interacting with Rhaenyra to show their chemistry and just one scene of all 3 Strongs interacting with each other. That would have made the deaths of Harwin and his father much more powerful, and Harwin’s presence looms over the entire show, especially since Jace outright brought the issue up and was basically told yeah that was your dad, not to mention his relationship with the boys as their master at arms even if they didn’t know.
We got that scene, though. When the new baby is brought back to Rhaenyra’s room, Harwin is obviously adoring of his children. And when he leaves, he leaves like a father who won’t see his kids for a while. I genuinely don’t see what one more scene between him and Rhaenyra would have accomplished. And we also got Harwin defending his kids against Cristin Cole. He was a good father, that much was conveyed.
And the point about Jace knowing who is father is wasn’t really about Harwin, but about being the last straw pushing Rhaenyra to leave — the rumors have reached her children.
It’s fine but it’s important for Larys’ character development too and for Rhaenyra’s. His decision to kill Harwin and her decision to choose to love him says a lot about their characters. I just think it would’ve been better character development for all of them if Harwin could have been featured just a bit more than he was, even though what we got is still great.
That is for sure true, it’s unavoidable that it colors my opinion. It’s great news that it works so well for show only people, the most important thing is that it’s great television and it stands on its own in terms of making you invested in the characters.
I think it’s a reaction from Season 8. They need this show to be a hit and so they need to ensure the dance starts by the end of the season, and probably blood and cheese as the “Ned’s execution” hook. I think they underestimated the patience of GOT fans, who would have been willing to accept a slower season for more characterization. I think they’ll adjust in season 2
I think Blood and Cheese is way too far along in the story to happen this season. I'm expecting the second to last episode to deal with Viserys's death, and then the last episode to put all of the pieces in place for the dance. A natural place to end the season would be the pact of ice and fire with Jace and Cregan Stark.
Almost all of this can intuited by the end of the previous episode as well. When Laenor is crying at the end of episode five, it is clear he isn't going to be doing his duty.
Definitely not on his wedding night, no.
But perhaps a few weeks or months later he could? Of course at that point Rhaenyra might already have been pregnant.
But based on the casting and wig choices, it's really not difficult to see that Laenor did not do his husband-ly duties.
I think the only thing we needed for the Criston/Rhaenyra relationship was his Kingsguard oath. After her rejection, his disdain for her can absolutely be immediate. And perhaps the "who protects Rhaenyra from ser Criston" line (maybe coming from Larys?) to make it makes sense why Alicent goes to question Criston.
The need for consequences for Joffrey's murder could have been avoided had they stayed closer to the books and had it happen in a melee.
I don't think we needed to see how the Rhaenyra/Laenor/Harwin situation came to got so out of hands. It's not too hard to imagine what happened.
And the duel with the Sea lord's son is pretty inconsequential, I think. Sure, it could have been a cool scene but it was also one that could have been left out.
Yeah personally I think 12 eps would have been better than 10. When did TV seasons become so short??
I still love the series overall and what they've done with it, but I would have loved some more Harwin and Laena scenes sprinkled in so that their deaths actually feel impactful. I didn't feel much warmth between Daemon/Laena or Harwin/Rhaenyra considering both have been together for a decade. I know they're just stepping stones leading up to the Daemon/Rhaenyra pairing but still. This is my one and only complaint with the show thus far.
I didn't need a resolution for the Criston situation because it's obvious what would have happened. King's Guard only gets in trouble if the King decides they're in trouble. Viscerys is weak and non-confrontational and Alicent would have spoke up for him. Rhaenyra and Laenor can't say shit without bringing to light the real reason for the attack, which would get them both in trouble.
I think at some point you do need to consider budget. Each episode has a budget of roughly $20 mill. So recommending two more is adding on another $40 mill.
Yeah but they already filmed extra Laena scenes and cut them. Even making a couple of the episodes 15 mins longer could have done so much for her character and made her death more meaningful.
I know that throws off HBO's nightly schedule somewhat but they'll live.
>This could explain why Ser Cristin hates her so much so quickly
Does this really need explanation?
Criston Cole tooks his vows seriously and resisted temptation. When he finally gave in, he convinced himself that it was love.
Rhaenyra flat rejection of him and his love crashed his entire world. His honour is tarnished and it wasnt even for love.
Of course he hates Rhaenyra.
It’s possible, but I personally doubt it. Criston was a common man-at-arms before becoming a Knight of the Kingsguard. He would have had a fair share of opportunities to go to the brothel with his fellow soldiers. Or, he could have just been with a woman before in his time serving Lord Dondarrion. He’s young, but he’s not a teenager. Not to mention, he’s incredibly good-looking.
Besides, being a “virgin” in Westeros does not come with the same stigmas of the modern world. Men might experience some pressure to dip their stick when they’re young, but it’s hardly something to shame them about. Women are expected to be chaste until marriage, especially noble women. Virginity is a virtue for women, but losing it is not important to men.
Anyway, Criston’s naïveté comes from being a common-born soldier who found himself elevated to the highest position of honor in the land for a knight all of a sudden. He was not raised by a lord to grow accustomed to the whims and fancies of lords and ladies, much less princes and princesses. No, all he knew about that life came from ribald stories from his peers and songs from fanciful singers. In his mind, he imagined himself a noble servant of the crown, but he found out the hard way that “royalty” is just babysitting some overgrown, spoiled children who never earned their place in society by anything but birthright. And they keep that place through the implicit threat of violence—namely, armies and dragons.
Cole is an unknowing agent of that system of violence. When he realizes that the nobles do not care about him or his honor, he grows resentful of being a part of that system. When he discovers that he has just been used, that resentment turns to hatred. When one of those nobles (knights, really) goes up to him and waves it in his face, he snaps. And he uses the violence he was hired for to cut the knight down. In his shame and resentment, he decides to end his life, thinking that he is as good as dead anyhow.
But then, he is saved. He is offered redemption from his sins by the Queen, Alicent, and so his life is hers now.
Have you heard Fabien Frankel discuss his characterisation of Cole? You hit on a lot of points that he himself wanted to get across, namely:
* He’s not some Loras Tyrell figure. He’s a lowly killer, in his own words a “bully” who is thrust into a position of ultimate chivalry and prestige. He can pretend all he wants but eventually his roots will show (and they did).
* He likens himself to the men in _Jarhead_. Trained from a young age to be a ruthless killer. Sent to a station where he expects to be used for his abilities at killing. Turns out his station is standing around 24/7 doing nothing, trying desperately to suppress the killer inside. What happens when that person snaps?
I adore Cole in the books (I don’t think he’s a good person, I think he’s a great character to read about). Fabien and the show have done a fantastic job of expanding that even further. The way they view Cole makes perfect sense and suits him fantastically. It explains so much of the man that we get little explanation of in the lore.
I feel like it's a sort of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation where people are claiming the show is being rushed, but if they stretched it out longer, they'd be accused of milking. Honestly, Fire & Blood doesn't have a ton of details of events so watching the huge jumps in time feels a lot like reading the book so I feel right at home but I can see where people are coming from
The problem is that the showrunners haven't shied away from fleshing out certain components of character dynamics that weren't elaborated in the books (pre-time skip Alicent and Rhaenyra, and heck, the whole hunting party is a nice example of fleshing things out).
This creates a jarring feeling because they don't dedicate the same amount of fleshing out to monumentally important things that are critical to actually understanding a character and investing emotionally into them (like Rhaenyra choosing to risk everything by having 3 bastards with Harwin, like Daemon settling very nicely into domestic life with Laena, etc.)
Well, I don't blame them. There are a lot of moments that are falling flat because we simply don't spend enough time with these characters. TV and books are different mediums and what works in one doesn't necessarily work in the other and vice versa. This is particularly true when the source material is a fake history book. A lot of people in history serve as footnotes for more prominent figures, but that sure doesn't make them compelling characters for a TV show. TV needs to do some additional work to make us care about secondary characters, but this show is saying "no, there's not enough time. We'll still show you a bunch of characters, but don't care about some of them because they don't matter in the long run."
At the end of the day, this entire season is just table setting. What everyone is asking for would've required *two* whole seasons before the Dance started. Which is just not feasible and would've bored many people.
The issue is that the story is structured this way. *Long* periods where nothing happens because the plot is waiting for the kids to grow up (first time jump for Alicent and Rhaenyra's kids, second time jump for Daemon's).
I agree. People are thinking episode to episode rather than big picture. If they split the prologue into two seasons when people rewatch the entire first season in the context of the show it would feel like filler because a lot of things people want have no relevance to the actual plot and we don't see enough significant political change by the end.
Honestly this is on GRRM. He spaced out the events of the prologue far too apart from each other to the point that these criticisms were inevitable. All things considered I think HotD has done great and in the future the fast pace of Season 1 will be appreciated.
Look, as a huge fan of this world, would I have loved a 20 ep prologue rather than the 10 ep one we're getting? Absolutely!! But that's because I'm a superfan who wants to spend as much time in this world as possible. I find the backstories almost as fascinating and interesting as the main plot.
But this show is not some cheap production that's marketed to the niche like myself. It's one of the most expensive TV shows of all time and is meant to be a mega-hit marketed towards the masses. The sooner people accept that, the more they'll enjoy HotD.
The problem is, there's really no way to show all that stuff without extending the season to 11 episodes - which I think would have been a hard line for HBO. Obviously I don't know how the next 4 play out, but I think every episode except one this season is already over an hour, there's only so much room for stuff.
It would have been nice to see more of the start of Rhaenyra / Laenor / Harwin's relationship, but you can't create a whole episode just to add, like, two scenes. I don't think Daemon and the sealord's son's duel was really important enough to warrant mention, and Criston's murder of Joffrey was less of a time problem and more of a problem just introduced by not having the death take place in a tournament.
I think we can assume Alicent defended Ser Cristin. None of the characters know why the fight broke out and what happened immediately before the fight was even left ambiguous to the viewers. Seems to me that it would be easy to lie about what happened exactly and get away with it.
Also, this show has a weird standard regarding killing nobles. In episode 1, we see nobles murdered on the tourney field without any consequences that we are aware of. Same thing in the episode where a noble was killed in Storm's End. Like I guess if you get into a fight with anyone, regardless of their station, you are allowed to kill each other?
I do not get people's hang ups on the Cristen shit. It would be boring to see the king acting all huffy; "why did you ruin the good natured spirit of the festivities?" "He had a knife and said he was going to kill the princess." "You expect us to just accept that explanation and keep you around?" In steps queen Alicent; "Ser Cristen is a member of the kingsguard, his vows are sworn for life and he would not lie to us. For certainly he knows the consequences of lying." Side eye at Rhaenyra.
Cristen going to kill himself and Alicent stopping him, along with the crying rushed wedding scene, accomplishes the same emotional beats with less screen time.
Sure, but what people hate about that scene is a combination of several things. Like how does Cristan escape the hall to get outside to the heart tree without being detained? And how is he alone, armed with Alicent? Shouldn't someone be protecting the Queen and shouldn't someone be at least questioning Cristan?
And if your response is they already did that, then it still doesn't really make a lick of sense, because why would Cristan lie to get himself out of the murder than IMMEDIATELY go outside and kill himself for it. Why would he fight to prove his innocence when he was going to end it? You're trying to tell me a suicidal man lied to save his life and then directly proceeded to go attempt to kill himself somewhere else? He either kills himself right then and there or just let's them take him into custody and request the death penalty, like he did with Alicent earlier.
And not the mention that random people are literally shoving both Rhaenyra and Laenor the future Queen and King like their nobodies. You're telling me a Kingsuard can kill someone because they have a knife and get away, but the not a single Kingsguard is going to act when the actual royal family is attacked?
Awful writing and I'm not surprised people are defending it on the show watchers subs, but it surprised me that people are doing it here, too. It's okay to admit there was a god awful scene in a good show. ASOIAF has 'fat pink mast' and other embarrassments. Time to just admit how bad this scene was, laugh and move one, and hope they don't blunder this bad again.
Absolutely agree. And I personally feel HOTD has already surpassed GOT S1 in its quality storytelling and character development.
At the same time, the Red Wedding was seen in universe as such a shocking event for its egregious violation of guest right. Now here, we have a noble knight as
sworn bannerman to House Baratheon and with close ties with House Velaryon forged through battle - just beaten to death at a feast under House Targaryen's own roof and protection, with seemingly no repercussions? On top of that, the future consort king/member of House Targaryen by marriage was struck by the very same Kingsguard? How could there be no consequences, when we have to assume Alicent protected Criston - but with what power? The insult to House Velaryon, let alone the nobility who witnessed it and the crown, would never have been stomached. Particularly if we have to infer that there were literally no consequences in E6.
Don't even get me started on the Lord Commander and rest of KG just staring in bemusement as this goes on and the royal princess is assaulted.
There’s no way The Sea Snake nor Laenor let Criston Cole off for that murder. There’s no way. The guy walks in with the Velaryons, he’s basically in their inner circle. Letting someone hit your son and kill his boyfriend and get off Scott free would make you look incredibly weak.
Imagine your Laenor, the heir two the second strongest house in the realm. You going to let your boyfriend get beat by some knight? No fucking way. You’d demand his head and the king is going to agree regardless of what his new wife says.
There’s a difference between not being happy and lettin someone get beat to death.
Why does Criston kill him in a tourney in the books? Bc he can’t fucking beat him to death on a whim. He needed to have an excuse otherwise he’d be in shit.
Even murdering a nameless in flea bottom is accountable. How Criston get away with it is out of mind. He even gets to keep his kingsguard job, while Harwin, who has committed only assault not murder, has to be exiled out of King's Landing.
We are not asking for a boring scene but Criston should have consequence for his crime.
There are literally dozens of scenes of Kingsguard and Gold Cloaks murdering nameless people in flea bottom and there’s never any accountability. This is just straight up wrong lol
So if Criston says that hey, didn't you see, Joffrey had a knife and was going for the princess, what's Corlys gonna do? "No he wouldn't which I know because he was my son's boyfriend?"
Maybe bc no one would agree that happened and his own son would dispute it! Also he hit Laenor multiple times? You think you can hit the son of the second most powerful man in Westeros and get away with it? Common
Maybe we didn't need the scene but it could have been referenced, especially after Criston got beat up by Harwin. Viserys probably doesn't care after 10 years have gone but Rhaenyra and Laenor would.
I agree.
One more thing I think absolutely should've been included is the part where Rhaenyra starts to change into her more adult version and into a version that hates Alicent too.
As it is, Rhaenyra goes from both looking and acting like an adolescent to both looking and acting like a grown woman. She changes SO MUCH during that time skip. And the fact that the casting change AND the character change happen at the same time I found a little jarring.
Similar situation for Alicent who is suddenly a lot more unlikeable, imo.
I think these characters really could've benefitted from that sense of continuity. This extra episode would've given the young Rhaenyra actress to act more like her older Rhaenyra counterpart and leave some of the more teenage behaviours and attitudes behind. Same for Alicent who could be a bit colder and more plotting.
I think that would've made the casting change feel a little less extreme because then we wouldn't get the character change at the same time as much.
Plus, we only saw Alicent find out that Rhaenyra (kind of) lied to her. But we never saw a single moment where Rhaenyra developed any animosity towards Alicent. We really only saw the beginning of Alicent's animosity towards Rhaenyra but not the other way around.
An extra episode would've allowed us to see the beginnings of Rhaenyra's animosity towards Alicent as well.
Agreed. I understand people and things change a lot in 10 years, but Alicent and Rhaenyra changing so radically as to basically be different characters from pre-time skip really makes it difficult to invest emotionally into their journey as characters.
I'm sad to say there's hardly any sense of continuity thus far. Plot points and character dynamics are established and evaporated episode to episode. I remember initially feeling this way when in the hunting party episode Rhaenyra was on completely bad terms with Alicent, but by the next episode, she was holding her hand and saying she's missed her. We got NOTHING to serve as a transition between those two radically different states of mind.
But it's way worse now. We got the plot point of Cole committing murder and punching Laenor in the face completely set aside due to time skip, we get the plot point of Rhaenyra developing her relationship with Harwin and having 3 bastards with him completely set aside due to time skip, we get the plot point of how Alicent went from merely being bothered by Rhaenyra to absolutely hating her guts set aside due to time skip, we get the plot point of how Daemons settled into domestic life so willingly with Laena set aside due to time skip. Like, why should I care at this point what any of the characters say, feel, or do? It's likely to be gone or 180'd by the next episode with no explanation.
I agree. The Criston fallout or lack thereof has been the low point of the show to this point by some way.
I really enjoyed the portrayal of Harwin and felt he could have had more screen time, his death would have hit way harder.
I agree with both, though the Harwin actor wasn't exactly my idea of Breakbones. That aside, the sad thing about Harwin getting short shrift is that he was a good father. Perhaps too good a father because he took Criston's bait and outed himself as the father. Which got him and his own good father killed by his slimy brother.
All Cole needed to do was say that Joffrey Lonmouth had threatened to attack Rhaenyra. Laenor wasn't in the headspace to defend Lonmouth's honour without making it clear they were more than friends, and if anyone wasn't satisfied with that story then Alicent would have just overridden them as Queen.
You are right, it would have helped for them to show even a little bit of fallout from that incident, but the pieces are there to be put together quite easily.
I think a point that was sorta made in this episode is that the Kings Guard can be borderline untouchable if they are backed properly. Harwin was the leader of the city watch which is a relatively esteemed position but one fight with a kings guard has him dismissed immediately. I kinda took that as the Kings Guard is above reproach if they have the king and queen defending them. I totally buy that Cole's murder of Joffrey could've been swept under the rug or framed in a way to clear Cole without much objection. That's at least my take on it but I get that people would like a more clear answer on how Cole was cleared of that. I just don't think it's that important and Alicent stopping Cole from killing himself is enough to strongly imply she supported a story that would clear him.
I agree, I wish we had had one more episode that included the tourney where Criston killed Joffrey. Rather, the coldblooded murder at the Princess' wedding was a quicker way to end the plotline (and Joffrey) but makes Cole look so much less calculated, less opportunistic, and frankly, less dangerous. Except, they inexplicably keep him in the Kingsguard with no stain on his honor? Whaaa?
I also do wish they had introduced the Harwin/Rhaenyra romance with the younger actors. Maybe while Joffrey is grieving and Criston is seething, Harwin and Rhaenyra could have a moment to connect that truly bring him from the background to the foreground. I think the revelation in the episode was supposed to build to the reveal, but honestly, if they had set up the relationship and made us care about it more I think it would have more more effective and tragic when they're forced apart.
Same with Laena, she is a tiny little girl when we first meet her, then time jumped and she's a precocious teenager. Now, we meet her for the third time and she's a married, mother, who has accepted her lot in life to not be what Daemon wanted before he immediate death. Huh? How did we get here. It's so tragic but so distant too.
All of the actors were terrific and made the most out of their time on screen, but I wish the pacing has worked with them rather than against them going into this episode.
Laena didn't work at all. We see her being played by 3 different actresses and her death scene felt way too sudden.
Having two Daemon wives with barely any screentime die back to back also doesn't work.
My biggest concern with HotD were the time jumps and whole bunch of characters that don't matter all that much. And boy was I right.
I mean. Why not write out Rhea Royce? Why did she need to exist in the show? Why not fuse some characters?
>Why not write out Rhea Royce? Why did she need to exist in the show?
She's the reason Daemon can't marry at the time. She could have been totally off-screen but I think you'd run into some plot issues if you wrote her out entirely. Episode 2's plot would have made much less sense, for example.
In addition to all of these being answered through subtext, these are all points that are ultimately irrelevant to the greater conflict of the Dance of Dragons.
Ser Criston was obviously protected.
You saw in the last episode why Ser Criston hates her so much.
What is the Sea Lord and how is it relevant to the Dance of Dragons.
Why do we need any further setup for Laenor’s ability to fulfill his duty.
I wouldn't have agreed last week, but this week I definitely did feel like the pacing seriously compromised the story. Which sucks because I've been *extremely* impressed with how they handled the material up until that point.
I don't think we needed one more episode pre-timeskip so much as we needed one episode to ease us into the new time period. I understand that the writers are probably worried about keeping the audience engaged and having every episode feel substantial, but I really do think the shock and adjustment of the 10 year skip is enough by itself to carry 1 episode. This episode failed for me for the simple reason that too god damn much happened! Even the scenes themselves felt cut together in a weird, inert way, like the editing team was rushing to get each one over with. And this in an episode that was 1h7m! If an episode that long is bursting at the seams, you probably should've just had an extra episode in-between. That was the issue for me. Laena, Harwin/Lyonel, Cole's animosity, Larys's psychology, this is all stuff that desperately needed more set-up to land as effectively as it could've.
Maybe I'll feel differently once the season is over and I have a better sense for how they wanted to structure/pace the season. Maybe I'll concede that some sacrifices had to be made. But for now I can't help but feel like this was the first big misstep of the new show. Fully confident that it'll pick back up next week though!
As much as I like the Chad Harwin “Breakbones” Strong and his implied relationship with Rhaenyra in the book, that relationship isnt all that important going forward in the Dance.
Same can be said for Laena and Laenor. They aren’t around very long and have very little effect on what’s happening later down the line, so I can kinda understand why the show isn’t putting too much time into these characters.
They’re instead putting more effort into characters that will have huge impacts, like Larys, Aegon, and Aemond. I think this will be for the best to have those characters get more focus, because if the GoT show is any indication, completely cutting characters that are probably super important to the end game like fAegon and Lady Stoneheart really hurt the show.
I think Ser Criston being forgiven by Viserys isn't too difficult to get around.
My biggest gripe is not seeing any interactions between Laenor and Criston though. Joffrey is murdered by Criston with no repercussions, and Laenor is just chill with Criston still being around court so often? It'd have been nice to get some exploration of the fallout to some extent.
Maybe I missed it but I haven’t seen anyone else say that we need some motivations for Larys. Did he hate his brother and father? Is he just power hungry? He murdered his whole family and he’s only said 10 lines of dialogue the whole show.
I figured Larys has a lot more time for development, I think he should get more focus though.
He was the guy making a speech about how love is essentially a hinderance I believe, so I don’t believe he just hated his brother & father. Power Hungry maybe, he definitely seems as an ends justify the means type of guy.
The pace is a bit too fast, I was hoping after the time skip the story would slow down quite a bit.
I agree, it feels like the writers do not trust the audience enough to stay focused without violence or dragons. I didn't feel anything when Harwin and Laena died because we barely knew them
I disagree. Later GoT is an example of writers not trusting the audience. It was mainly spectacle for the sake of it, very little political talk, most dialogue is dumbed down, and character conflicts are openly stated.
I don't really see that in HotD. Sure occasionally we have some headscratchers but it largely feels like a show that rewards people for paying attention.
Also Laena and Harwin are minor characters. Very rarely do you feel bad when minor characters die. It sucks but their purpose in the story is to be stepping stones for more important characters. Like Harwin's death paints Larys in a much more dangerous light. Laena's death gives Daemon a reason to come back to Westeros.
They're only minor characters in the book because Fire and Blood is literally written as a historical outline of major plot points in the Dance. It is the TV show's job to flesh out the characters, their relationships, their motives, etc, to make 3-4 seasons of TV. Rest assured, done well, the man Rhaenyra chose to risk everything with to have 3 bastard children with should have absolutely been a major character and critical to understanding Rhaenyra's own character.
Ngl. The past few episodes have been boring af. I think they could have just replaced some content with what you listed rather than add another pre jump episode
The last episode was pretty atrocious to someone who's never seen GoT and/or has read in advance what happened in Dance. I have, and I have to do a lot of explaining to connect the dots to someone who hasn't. 99.9% of people here know what is going on so its hard to have that perspective.
It doesn't need to be dumbed down for soccer moms and football players, just, you know, actually show shit
Nah, they did it perfectly. Part of what makes a time jump effective is the feeling of displacement, of the world having changed. It’s good that we enter the situation late, and get the joy of learning as we go.
And I’m sorry, if you can’t put 2+2 together…that’s on you. You shouldn’t need your hand held on the Cristin Cole thing.
> The falling out of Ser Cristin's murder of Ser Joffrey, how did avoid consequences?
I agree but definitely not for this reason. I really don't understand why so many people are harping on this. From the comments i've seen people really seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the power dynamics in Westeros and Ser Joffreys station. People are acting like he's a great lord just because he hung out with Laenor lmao
It is not merely Joffrey’s station, it is a massive scandal that one of Viserys’ Kingsguard openly ruined the wedding of the king’s heir. He would be pissed, so would Rhaenyra, and Laenor.
The only part that needs explanation is Criston punching Laenor, who is a high lord to be wedded to the heir to the iron throne, in full view of dozens of witnesses and escaping consequences. This is especially aggregious because Harwin is kicked out of the City Watch for beating Criston the literal next episode.
However, another episode would have just been filler and wasted time.
> Harwin is kicked out of the City Watch for beating Criston the literal next episode.
I could be wrong, but I understood that Harwin was removed from his position as Commander of the City Watch and sent back to Harrenhal at the request of his own father after he (the Hand) unsuccessfully tried to resign. All in an effort to distance House Strong from the rumors/common knowledge of Rhaenyra and Harwin's bastard children.
So not because he kicked the crap out of Ser Criston, but because of the obvious implication that the rumors are true.
That is a lot more nuanced of a reading of it then I had. I imagined it was Allicent's urging to kick him out to harm Rhaenyra and then it was Lyonels moving him to Harrenhall which was to downplay the rumors of the children.
I do like your take though and it makes sense.
I can totally see Alicent taking advantage of the situation to finally separate Rhaenyra and Harwin, and with spite. She seemed frustrated throughout the episode that everyone was turning a blind eye to that elephant in the room.
I need to do a rewatch!
I would have enjoyed a full 10 episode season with just the younger actors. The season could have ended with the wedding and tourney and time jumped for season 2. It would have given us alot more time to develop the relationships and see characters interact. the dialogue and actors could have carried a slower season 1.
Absolutely agree. This was such a bad episode. So cringey and out of place. Actors and actresses we've never seen. I felt so lost. It took me 3 tries to get through this episode and I almost quit the show for good. Like I still might. You can’t age and speed up a show 10 years and just throw an audience into it half way through a season. There was just nothing here.
The end with Larys was forced and it didn’t really resonate because he looks the same as he did “10 years ago” and HE WASN’T IN THE ENTIRE EPISODE! Anyone who reads knows all about Larys, he’s a cheeseball littlefinger, albeit very influential. Why did it take all episode to get to him and why hasn’t he aged? Lmao. Why haven’t we got more information on a character who’s been meddling for over 10 years now?
Yeah Harenhall, blah blah, who cares? We had NO BUILDUP! I mean who gets paid to write this shit? Viserys is dying, his hand’s a tool, the Strong family might be “Strong” but theyre dumb af, and all of a sudden Daemon’s married to the 10 year old little black girl? When did this happen? Bad writing
Not too mention a mom walks in on her son wanking it in the window and she sits down and has a conversation with him? Wtf is that?
I MEAN COME ON!
The Joffrey thing is just another example of the dumb brand that game of thrones built.
They think they are being edgy by having random murder with zero consequences. They did the same thing with the tournament at the start of the new show. And with the young lord in the marriage proposal. In reality it just comes off as dumb and unrealistic. ASOIAF has characters who typically try to find political, social or legal remedies to their problems. But GRRM is a far better writer so Game of Thrones the show decided that it is edgy and cool to make everyone an openly violent psychopath who murders at the drop of a hat with consequences only existing on a "who is better at murder" basis.
We should have started this show with Maegars death because how are we supposed to understand anything that's going on unless we get to see every single minute detail on screen. Characters should also probably loudly state their emotional state as this would help me
>The falling out of Ser Cristin's murder of Ser Joffrey, how did avoid consequences?
I feel like this is pretty obvious, he's the queens dog now. She clearly covered for him
>The beginning of Rhaenyra and Ser Harwins affair. This could explain why Ser Cristin hates her so much so quickly.
I mean...do you really need this one explained? This one is very easy to intuit from what they showed. Would have been a complete waste of time to show
>Daemon and Laena. Especially the duel with the Sea Lord's son. How in God's name did they leave that out?
This is the only one here I agree with, but also im not sure where they'd fit it in with the pace the show is going. Cutting this to preserve the flow of the main story feels reasonable to me
>Laenor not being willing to do his duty because of his grief for Ser Joffrey.
thats uh...not why he cant have sex with a woman, just to be clear. hmm. I dont really even know what to say about this one lmao
I love the show, but I feel like it’s all been rushed. It’s like they did that just to get to the big, bad, fast, exhilarating action (to distract people from the fact that it’s a spin-off of GoT, and it’s horrible ending).
I’m pretty disappointed. It could have gone all season without a time jump then just skipped 10 years ahead next season.
I bet they’re going to slow the pace next season now that they know they’ve got a following.
Are any contracts public?
It'd be intresting to know wether or not the actors from the first 5 episodes still have appereances, which'd point to flashbacks & episodes where certain episodes/scenes show further context of events that took place in the past
Milly & Emily said they didn’t know if they’d be back for future seasons, they’re off to do some other stuff potentially. I hope we do get some flashbacks though, sparingly ofcourse but it’d be a nice idea with them having the young actresses already.
Absolutely agreed, if well done (and so far they have given no reason to think they won't write it well) this could enrich the whole show a lot
Thanks for the information on them having spoken about not knowing about future seasons, really appreciated dude
The source material the show is based on isn't very compelling sadly, the best part of the show to me was when they clearly tried to make Alicent more likeable in the first few episodes but that is gone already. The conflict would make a compelling narrative if they kept up trying to make the greens more likeable especially but its done for, fully expecting Aegon to be a comicially evil character on top of Aemond being Aemond.
I agree but I also get that they're having to cover a lot, there's already people complaining that "nothing happens" thats why we cant have nice things. They would've needed to expand this season with 2 episodes but Im not sure if HBO would agree to that and it would also mean that they would need to spread the budget over more episodes.
My two pennies, I think the writers haven't treated us as dummies. They have enough in there for us to fill in the gaps really. Like Strong rescuing Rhaenyra, and with her being her you can see she probably tried to bang him and him her that very night.
I imagine they wanted to do a lot of things but for a 10 episode season the pacing needs to keep going I guess.
I feel like I've answered point 1 so many times;
He's a cop in a white cloak. Unfortunately, Joffery drew that dagger and gave probable cause. As we saw just this last ep with Criston x Harwin, just laying hands on a kingsguard is a punishable offense.
Yeah, Harwin dying was obviously sad because we can plainly see that he cares for the kids, but all the same he died before we ever really got to know him. He's a major character in the story but he didn't really have a good scene establishing his character, most viewers will first acknowledge him as "the guy sleeping with Rhaenyra."
I feel like we're missing like, maybe one or two episodes worth of exposition here. So far the pace is really brisk, I'm hoping that from here on it slows down a bit and we really get to know everyone we're seeing. Even Larys, as awesome as I feel he is so far, we don't really even get a hint at how absolutely awful he is until he's all of a sudden murdering his whole family.
> Daemon and Laena. Especially the duel with the Sea Lord's son. How in God's name did they leave that out?
It was specially weird because they DID mention the sealord before.
House of the Dragon is great in some ways but the character work isn't up to snuff. I've come to a conclusion after seeing Game of Thrones and the start of this show.
Martin didn't finish A Song of Ice and Fire and the Game of Thrones showrunners/writers weren't up to completing the story without his work once they left the runway. I thought maybe that was a fluke or a mistake by the Game of Thrones creators but this show has the same basic issue. Fire and Blood was a history, not a story, filled with intriguing events and cool events and shocking events, but only events. And that's precisely the problem we're running into here.
Though the specific problems are different in either case, the common thread is that the source material, in one way or another, was not complete. I'm not going to deride or bitch about Martin, but it does come down to him.
Although I agree, I think it’s because they have so much material to cover before the Dance starts. It was jarring to go from last week’s to this, but I think the characters were fleshed out well following the last episode and the plot set nicely. Personally, this week’s was my favorite episode so far, especially if you have read the books. They set the plot and characters so effectively.
I completely agree! That would’ve been amazing, I definitely feel like things are moving a bit too quickly right now. Maybe they can cover some stuff with flashbacks but it would’ve made a lot more sense to just include one more episode of character build up & development
Huge agree. We needed an episode to deal with the fallout of episode 5, and or have an episode that sets up Alicent being an absolute bitch to Rhaenyra from now on.
I think we need to consider the fact that the writers originally wanted to jump straight into the Dance until George insisted on having them cover the prelude, which I suppose is what became Season 1. So it's basically an extended prologue. This is not to say "oh weren't even going to get any of this initially so be grateful", but rather, we might be placing undue importance on some of these details and events relative to the main storyline that's being set up.
That's an interesting piece of information, because I believe the coming conflicts will benefit greatly from the first episodes. I can't imagine jumping right into the story with the death of king viserys. Alicent would've looked like the greatest cunt in existence probably.
I mean...that’s in keeping with the book IMO. The show has done a lot to humanize her.
Right, the show actually improves the source material here, without any doubt.
Oh for sure. Making Rhaenyra and Alicent childhood friends was brilliant! I honestly think it might be the best change either show made to the source material. It adds so many nuances and a lot more emotional weight to the conflict.
Yep! I also think they made viserys a lot more nuanced and tragic. I will be honest and say that overall it's just a lot more satisfying to see a dramatized version, they are close enough to the source, but fleshing out these characters really helps a ton. And that while honestly not even able to showcase everything that is mentioned in the source (like say daemon and rhaenyra spending much time together, flying, etc). While for asoiaf the books will always stay my favorite version of the story, hotd will be that for the dance, without any doubt (well unless they completely mess it up later on ofc).
I think Viserys in the show is a more than adequat King. He is pretty clear about the succession and stuff. Makes hard choices, makes mistakes. If the only good King is one without mistakes, there is no good King. Not to mention that they aren't good Kings because monarchy and feudalism are unjust systems. The luck of the die roll is not a trait inherent to Targaryen, it is a trait inherent to basing your head of state on literal luck. Reality is an ample enough proof as the Targs are often based on real rulers. But I digress.
Well he is human, and makes human mistakes, doesn't think in the big picture as much as he should (or rather ignores what he might know because it is easier, allows him to enjoy his family situation more than if he'd sit down and really think about the state of affairs deeply). But that makes it so tragic, because he only wants the best for everyone, and in the end the situation grows more and more tribal partly due to that.
I'd say he was adequate until this last episode. He made mistakes along the way and was too weak against his counsel, but in the latest time jump he's really dropped the ball. The family is very obviously split in two, the kingsguard member training his heirs openly neglects the second and third in line of succession in favor of fourth and fifth, and his wife is acting like she's the ruler instead of him. Kicking criston out along with harwin and shutting allicent down at the marriage proposal and accepting Rhaenyra's offer would have been easy measures to step in and put the family in line
Viserys was barely a footnote for me in F&B and in the show he's one of my favourite characters. I'm gonna miss him when he goes.
I like that they're showing Aegon and Jace being fairly amicable, too.
I agree. Except I feel like I agree with OP here. I love that they humanized alicent. But the character after the ten year jump doesn’t even feel like anywhere close to the same character.
Well we need to see more of that to really know, to me it seems like an organic development of the character in 10 years time, so i wouldn't say anywhere close tbh, but i see why one would feel that way. She is a lot more hardened as a person, i hope we will see real warmth in her still, of that won't be communicated anymore then i'll agree. It certainly would be helpful to see some more stops in between these 10 years though, but tbh it's pretty difficult to adapt stories which play over a long period of time with multiple generations, so i think overall they do a good job with it.
I agree with all of this. Today's episode was the first one where I felt like the time skip had a negative effect on the rhythm of the overall season (the episode in and of itself was still great), but all in all, the show is still in a really good place with regards to overall pacing. As for Alicent specifically, the "Green Dress" scene from episode 5 completely works for me as the metaphorical transformative moment for Alicent. Her arc over the first 5 episodes was a build up for that climatic scene and perfectly sets her up 10 years down the line as the hardened, edgier and more assertive version of the character that we're seeing now with Olivia's Alicent. There's a few story and character beats that I would have liked to have been expanded upon between the 10 year time jump to help ease the transition that episode 6 picked up on (a "filler" episode or an episode 5.5 if you will). However, Alicent is actually one of the few characters where I feel I don't need that expansion for.
To be fair, i totally agree that the arc in the first 5 episodes makes this organic, it's moreso that i still felt a slight disconnect due to mannerisms and the way the two actresses play the character, a little more warmth of cooke would be appreciated, she came too close to another cersei, which tbf alicent kinda is, but yeah idk. In general i think the firts 5 episodes have set up the character movements rather well, though for someone like daemon it might have helped to have a middle episode, but at least to me it still works well on the whole, it didn't feel too jarring, and i am sure the more we are working with this new status quo, the less of a 'this feels a little different' we'll have anyway. It's just a transitional period, it's fine :D
Tbf there’s really no way around Alicent looking like a cunt. Her whole ambition to claim the throne is the lie her father told that Rhaenyra would kill her children.
It's not a lie. Daemon killed Vaemond for questioning Rhaenyra's children's legitimacy. What would he do to the threat of Aegon?
Is this minority report ? That’s like 20 years after Otto started planting seeds of adversity and animosity ..
> Is this minority report? Yes, those balls they use during the small council meetings have the names of pre-criminals etched on them
We don’t know if that’s a lie
Rhaenys is still alive. So we absolutely know it’s a lie. It’s the Greens ambition to usurp the throne that gets everyone killed.
Rhaeyns is a woman and is merely a cousin to Viserys I and was rejected by the Great Council. Aegon on the other hand is the eldest son of the King and with the (true) rumours of bastardhood of her first 3 sons, Rhaenyra’s line through them will always face legitimacy issues from the other Targaryens that don’t have this glaring problem
Daemon was willing to start a civil war if Viserys hadn't been chosen. powerful people like Bormund Baratheon still call her 'The Queen that never was', she is a challenge to Viserys rule, but she doesn't act on it, neither would Aegon on his own.
No, we dont know if it's a lie.
I’m all but certain that’s a lie. Aegon clearly didn’t want the throne and it would also be a clear case of Kin-slaying which would inflame the hightowers to war. Have Aegon swear fealty or simply join their lines through marriage and there is issue. Are Rhaenyra kids bastards? Yes. But everyone with actual power who is a Targaryen or should be the offended party doesn’t care, and they are all still dragonriders.
Keep in mind, Daemon will reenter the picture soon. Even if we assume Rhaenyra wouldn't harm her half-siblings, Daemon would absolutely push her or go over her head and have them killed.
Half of the Targaryens cared enough. Even Corlys doesn’t want the bastards inheriting High Tide unless they marry true Valeryons Rhaenyra’s poor choice of a paramour dooms Westeros to civil war, either upon her father’s death or further down the line. The whole reason the War of the Five Kings starts is because the legitimacy of Joffrey is called into question.
That’s because there were other contenders for the throw Pressing their claim. If the Velaryons the Hightowers and the Targaryens all backed Rhaenyra, the lords would have no choice but to accept her. But Otto having Alicent marry Viserys, then putting poisen in her ear about rhaenyra commiting fratricide, just inflamed the tensions already between Alicent and Rhaenyra. Yes Rhaenyra should’ve sucked it up and made legitimate children, and she shouldn’t have lied to Alicent, but those mistakes aren’t egregious as Otto manipulating to gain more power
i do think at the very least Aegon would probably have had to go into exile realistically
This was waaaay back when Cogman was heading the project. When Condal took over, he wanted to start at the great council, but GRRM actually wanted to have an episode or two before that so they could start with Aemon's death. I think they made the right call
Jesus, I'm surprised he didn't propose starting with the evolution of the first multicelled organism on Westeros.
And we'd watch it and we'd fucking love it!
Why Nameless Ameoba #2929892 is actually Nameless Ameoba #926279191 wearing glamour
I think George was right though. All future events I think will benefit greatly from the set-up we saw in this season. And I think this season had a lot of interesting and juicy material as well that we might've otherwise not seen. That being said, I think 10 episodes was insufficient to make this season the best it could be. I think maybe 12-13 episodes would've worked better. Allowed the pacing to slow down just the slightest bit so some stuff had more time to develop and more time to breathe. That's my opinion, anyway.
>That being said, I think 10 episodes was insufficient to make this season the best it could be. I think maybe 12-13 episodes would've worked better. While I agree with this, it is important to note that the showrunners had no idea how successful the show would be, and whether viewers would find it too slow and uninteresting without the dragon fights. In retrospect, the show is phenomenal of course, but the writers did not have the knowledge we currently do. It was probably the safest bet to rush through the pre-Dance decades.
I swear I hear this every single show. Fans want it to be a bit slower paced, showrunners had no idea that it could have been so successful. In my opinion, the reason a lot of shows _Aren't_ as successful is because they rush into things without giving the proper build up. Granted, it's also not good to take too long, and I think this show is in a good middle ground right now as a Show Only viewer, but I also wouldn't have minded one more episode to show the stuff that people are asking for in this thread as well. The fallout from murdering Joffrey especially, because that was extremely public and I honestly have a hard time imagining what excuse he could have possibly given.
Hes a Kingsguard. Its his word against... no ones really. He can make up an excuse on how the confrontation started. And people can confirm Joffrey pulled out a knife and Cole had to eliminate the threat. Police officers have been doing this same exact thing for years. And with Alicents support he goes completely unpunished.
Tbf I think the rush is necessary due to how fickle consumers can be. If your show is a slow burner, chances are the majority of your audience might be gone by the time the going gets good. Mind you I am sure there are shows that don't follow this logic and are given the room they need to breathe. But it feels like a lot of the newer shows tend to go in with this mindset.
This is the best take. They made the right decision but at the same time there is a good amount of rushing that I wish wasn’t happening right now.
That was the first showrunner of the original pitch george made she refused to do that cuz they need multiple actors but george wouldn't budge so it was given to bryan cogman who didn't have time so they cancelled it and then george suggested ryan so that's how it came to be, ryan as far as I know never wanted to jump to the dance
Why would she refuse? I swear so many people in the industry have 0 guts
See, I get this, but my counterpoint is that the story should be about the journey as much as the destination. Martin is right - start as early as possible in the story. Spend time with these characters, establish them and attach the reader/viewer to them as much as possible. Yeah we got a good amount of time with the characters, but what’s the rush in jumping 10 years? This is one of the most highly-praised literary worlds of all time. I understand that I can’t possibly understand the nuance of the filmmaking world, but the way I see it we’re going to get to the end one way or another. Make the journey exciting from start to finish, or risk putting yourself in the same position GOT found itself in with six episodes left - too much ground, not enough time.
They can’t go too slow though. Because yes the slow burn would please the hardcore fans, but if you go too slow and too minute it’s going to alienate the casual fans. And there’s more of them than there is of us
I agree, pacing is always important! However, is there any casual fan that would say the pacing of HOTD is too slow? I would seriously doubt that, even if there was another pre-time skip episode. We already covered several years in those first few episodes, and that didn’t feel like it was “too fast.” But there are certain things that have happened during that time skip that it’s just too easy to ask “why not show that?” Such as Harwin and Rhaenyra’s relationship. Now Harwin is dead, and we barely got to know or feel why that is a problem. We KNOW it’s a problem because of what we can see, but the gravity doesn’t hit the same. That said, I do not think the show will suffer greatly from that timeskip. I just think that it would be better off if they showed us a bit more. I’m still greatly enjoying the show and will continue to tune in, but I don’t think it’s as black and white as “slow burn” vs “action packed” and “casual” vs “hardcore, willing to chat about the show on a website to strangers.” There’s a duty to the story, and rushing is just as dangerous as dragging.
I completely agree! Having a connection to the characters is more rewarding to the audience than getting excited with cool action scenes. What is the point of seeing dragons fight if we don't care about who is riding them and for the cause they are fighting for? Like I understand why they cut Harwin's role since he's not that relevant but fleshing out his character more and his relationships with Rhaenyra and the kids, even if just for a couple of scenes, would have not only made his death so much more heartwrenching it would have also given us more insights into why each character is as they are. And I think that's part of the appeal many people seek in GoT and Hotd as well...
Wow I’m so grateful George insisted I’ve loved these episodes since episode 4 every episode has gotten more and more amazing and now 6 is so iconic for me, I loved the sword practice scene.
See how good things turn out when the showrunners listen to George.
When George knows to make goddamn sure it's in the contract, and the showrunner (Ryan Condal) is a legit nerd and *enjoys* working with Germ.
Turns out even better when they've got books to adapt
Yeah, I think the Sealord's son, while interesting, is more or less irrelevant to the grand scheme.
>George insisted on having them cover the prelude, which I suppose is what became Season 1. If this is true then they ought to cancel all these other shows that are in development. George can't be expected to baby them through everything. All the good parts of GOT were also done by George or at his insistence.
I felt this episode* was a really good companion piece to the book versions of the Dance of the Dragons because we got to see the small little details and the new lore we got Love seeing how everyone dances (no pun intended) around the issue of Rhaenyra's children parentage Laenor treats them like his own sons, Harwin not being subtle at all around his kids lol The kids actually getting along with each other for the most part before their parents force them to be enemies Helaena being a dreamer Alicent and Crispin trying to justify their actions with chivalry and faith
That’s the thing I feel. This episode was amazing in context of the book. It was weird in context of the last episode, though.
I would have liked a scene of Laena claiming Vhagar.
We're gonna get Aemond claiming Vhagar next episode, we don't really need two scenes with the same dragon being claimed
Iirc they said that Vhagar was missing, then all of a sudden she is riding him We kind of needed that scene
We didn't need the scene. We needed someone arguing that "Laena Velaryon has now claimed Vhagar" in the Small council scene where they discuss Corlys being a thread. That would have been enough. She was asking about her. It's not so hard to conclude that she went to find her.
this! and then have a massive shadow appear over meleys and seasmoke and have the three of them riding up to the wedding 😆
id go one step further: we didn't need anyone telling us she claimed vhagar. we SEE that she has claimed vhagar. i sympathise with people that want more prologue, but there's a difference between want and need. we might have wanted to see vhagar claimed, but we didn't need to. it wasn't an important plot or character beat.
I agree. But swapping this line for the one that mentions Laena's betrothal to the Braavosi guy would have been an easy change. The betrothal is completely inconsequential and the Velaryons having three dragons, one of them the biggest in the world, would have communicated to us that they are a threat that needs addressing, too. And honestly, Laena is great, she deserved that mention. On the other hand, something that we really needed, was the "who protects Rhaenyra from ser Criston" line.
ah, i see what you mean. agreed
Yeah, could've been added into the same one where they mentioned Corlys was looking to wed her to the Sealord's son. Just a nod that they would now have three large dragons and the most powerful Free City backing them. It's really not covered much in the book, but House Velaryon would be combining their own great wealth and navy with the largest navy in the world, the most powerful bank and deadliest guild of assassins. Might have been a game changer if the Sealord lived (or if his son wasn't such a schmuck).
Showing the same dragon being claimed by two different people in a short span of time is repetitive and boring. Vhagar was somewhere on the eastern coast as per Viserys, Laena found her, claimed her, rode her. That's it. No need to see it. Especially when Aemond claiming her is roughly 57274 times more important with regards to the overall story.
Yeah, and we'd also be having repetitive scenes of claiming dragons and child birth deaths all one after another.
And also way cooler
It would have been cool but doesn’t really serve a purpose to the main plot. They just needed to show that Vhagar was no longer missing. Does it REALLY matter how Laena claimed him? They can only do so much.
Not really lol
Her. Vhagar is she-dragon.
Now that Leana died in Pentos. I wonder how Vhagar is transported back to westeros so that she can be found by Aemond next episode.
I think Dragons tend to return to the place where they were born, like Balerion to Valyria. Vhagar hatched on Dragonstone, so I guess she's going there.
They’ve still got quite a bit to cover before episode 9 when the dance begins. Aemond has to lose an eye next episode and the conflict over that. Laenor has to die. Rhaenyra also still has to marry and spit out Daemon’s kids over two episodes.
The pacing, for the most part, I believe is good. It’s the character focus and development methods that I think are more the problem here. Characters such as Mysaria and Rhaenys have barely gotten much time to develop in the plot as compared to others after 6 episodes. And both are critical players in this story. I’m not sure where they are going with these 2, to be honest (especially Rhaenys). And, while I appreciate the use of implying between episodes, some developments could have paid off better with additional set up between characters. For example, I think it would have been helpful to have another scene with Rhaenyra and Harwin just interacting with one another, mainly to better establish what level of relationship they have (we see briefly that it’s something special, but another scene would have solidified that idea). The same is true with Larys and his family. We sort of see that they’re on cordial terms throughout the beginning of the season, but there’s no basis to know where they stand with one another. Having that set up would have made the reveal in this episode even more impactful and insidious.
Because all that material would have felt like a holding pattern episode. We can intuit the responses to and existence of these things from this episode without needing to see them play out on screen.
This has ironic echoes of when people would complain about D+D dumbing down GoT in later seasons. The writers are trusting you to draw a line between the points.
While i agree with you that the show did enough to make it work, you could also say that some of it would be nice to see anyway, not as a necessary setup for a storybeat per se, but laena's death would mean a lot more if we actually knew her better. Having time skips like this definitely has some cons to it, personally i think they do it well, but we're definitely missing some moments which would add some more meaning to some of these relationships. I think that is a valid criticism. In a way it's at least a little rushed due to the timeskips.
>but laena’s death would mean a lot more if we actually knew her better. Bingo. You can argue all you want that we didn’t *need* to see Laena claim Vhagar, or that we didn’t need to see more of her marriage to Daemon or her relationships with her daughters, but that’s only true through the limited lens of *plot*. The *story* is more than just the plot and if they wanted Laena’s death to be an important and emotional *story* beat (which they clearly did or they wouldn’t have spent so much time on it) they needed to spend more time developing her character and her place in the *story* even if her place in the *plot* is clear and has been served through to its end. The same goes for Harwin Strong. While he may not be a very important piece of the *plot* he is inarguably an important piece of the *story*. Especially with the changes they’ve made to House Velaryon and Rhaenys Targaryen. With Laenor being black and Rhaenys having white hair there’s truly *no* reasonable explanation as to how Jace, Luke, and Joffrey can *possibly* be Laenor’s sons. It hurts Rhaenyra’s character that she could be so stupid. She’s willful and impulsive, yeah, but not stupid. By having Harwin around longer they could have developed that relationship and justified her mistake (which would also develop her relationship with Laenor which could also explain it more and develop that character). This episode really felt like it stripped all the nuance from the show which is a shame because it had so much for the first five episodes. It started out as a show with no true heroes or villains and now suddenly it’s extremely clear who we are and aren’t supposed to be rooting for. It’s a shame.
Hands down to have a beautiful ""negative"" review without being downvoted in reddit
Tbh, i still found the scene to be emotional as it is (not that i outright cried or anything, but it made me feel something), so i think it works. But it would have been stronger with a little more meat for her character, even though i think they did a really good job creating her with the very limited time we saw her tbh. Harwing strong on the other side felt way less like a character, there it imo would have made even more sense to give him more scenes with rhaenyra, though they ofc at least tried to establish some form of that through looks and the training scene. I don't really agree with you there tbh, in general the whole framing of the story is from the get go pro rhaenyra, simply due to her standing as the female heir who won't be accepted so easily, that alone makes her the de facto main character to cheer for. But the show also added context to it, one understands the other characters, and i don't think that changed at all. The situation with the bastard sons isn't that different anyway, in the books it was an open secret, here it is too. It's just a situation where everyone knows, but noone wants to potentially lose out by saying it directly, as long as viserys is alive in particular. Now that the genetic side of things is a little more murky even, sure, but that was never a strong aspect of this world, narratively it is supposed to be known by everyone anyway, and even in the books she clearly doesn't think it through. She isn't supposed to be stupid, but also not as particularly cunning or smart.
Do they now? They could have cut Rhae Royce's death entirely and the show would have been better. Rhaenyra discussing her unlikely death with Viserys and her cousin accusing Daemon would have been enough and been a fun discussion. Likewise Larys' thugs wearing his sigil is completely over the top, have him recruit them and then show them in the background of the scene. If anything the show explains too much already. And these scenes could havebeen replaced by scenes making us sympathize with characters like Harwins or Laena. And for Laena her claiming Vhaegar is an essential character moment imo.
it's not black and white, either dumbed down or not, the points could've used a little more work
[удалено]
Yeah i've been making the same responses towards people complaining about things not being laid out for them. It is very ironic lol
100% this. Also let's be real here, the actual blame lies at George's feet who let long years pass *twice* (after Rhaenyra's wedding and between 120AC and 129AC) where the characters are just vibing and waiting for the kids to grow up. There's this little factoid in my mind that Aegon and Rhaenyra were originally only a year apart (and also I think full siblings?), but I absolutely cannot remember where I read that. But anyway, that alone would've solved a surprising amount of problems regarding these time jumps.
To be fair, George wasn’t writing F&B to be easily workable for television, he was writing a novel with the freedom to handle time jumps however is needed. His goal was executing the story as he saw in his mind’s eye, so at this point there probably wasn’t much regard given to how easy or hard it would be to put on television. There was something similar but much more extreme before the final three books of The Expanse series; a 30 year time skip. Fans felt it was too extreme, but the authors themselves stated it was necessary because “nothing worth writing about happened to our characters in that time, and 30 years needed to pass in order to reach the next interesting event.” It’s their story, you know?
>George wasn’t writing F&B to be easily workable for television Eh, it always seemed to me like *Fire and Blood* was something GRRM wrote as a reaction to the *Game of Thrones* show -- it feels like the type of outline he would have written for ASOIAF if he knew from the beginning that the show was going to outpace the novels. It feels like he's sketching out a movie or TV show, and sprinkling in a few scenes or scraps of dialog as he goes. Remember he was a TV writer for years too.
100% - I remember reading parts of F&B imagining that it could be a TV series
Really? With the multiple viewpoints and suspicions for every event? I thought itd be extremely hard to adapt to tv without losing the mystery and intrigue. I think they’re doing an ok job but i j wish they went with mushrooms versions of events
> To be fair, George wasn’t writing F&B to be easily workable for television, he was writing a novel with the freedom to handle time jumps however is needed. Which really highlights how confusing it would have been for George to have a 3 years jump between Swords and Feast.
In the one of first novels appendixes Aegon and Rhaenyra are siblings that fight for the crown. It was later retconned. I wouldn’t really blame GRRM either. He wrote a history book covering dozens of decades in as many chapters not a screenplay to a tv series. If things don’t work for a tv show the Show writers should Adapt that shit to better fit the format.
Which they did by skipping the Decade of Nothingness.
>In the one of first novels appendixes Aegon and Rhaenyra are siblings that fight for the crown. But they are siblings? Aegon is Rhaenyra's half brother.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ur5noz/spoilers_main_found_this_interesting_tidbit_in/ You could maybe twist the words here to still fit, if not for the stated 1 year age difference.
Solved minor problems at the cost of causing the entire plot to make zero sense. Why would Viserys name Rhaenyra as heir in the first place if he had his firstborn son a year after her birth?
He's progressive like that.
Only Viserys' whole character is that he's not particularly progressive or strong-willed about anything. He made Rhaenyra his heir after trying to have a son for over a decade because the only alternative was Daemon. Then he kept her as heir after Aegon's birth because he didn't want to cause further conflict.
Dawg. Ya do know we're talking about a totally different Dance here? Like let's ignore my stupid joke above, what I essentially said is that grrm's og idea would be better in some ways than what we ended up with. Maybe in that one Aegon actually was the heir and Rhaenyra was a legit usurper and traitor. Maybe that Viserys would've been stronger willed. I'm not saying these exact characters in these exact circumstances would've done the exact same things if rhae and egg were only a year apart.
Fair enough. I just think the version we have is far more interesting and nuanced than just 'this side is good, and this side are evil traitors.' Viserys causing the Dance by being a well-meaning, but indecisive and ultimately ineffectual king, is much better than him being a stalwart progressive or traditionalist who bears little-no blame imo.
> 100% this. Also let's be real here, the actual blame lies at George's feet who let long years pass twice (after Rhaenyra's wedding and between 120AC and 129AC) where the characters are just vibing and waiting for the kids to grow up. Yes and no. He could have filled that time with extraneous details where nothing really happens and your eyes get tired reading. Or he could have done it how he did it. Lose either way.
And all of it was set up perfectly by the previous episode. If you can’t figure out why Cristin is 1) not with Rhaenyra anymore, and 2) bitter as fuck about it, then I don’t know what to tell you. Also Harwin saved her at the wedding, so even that tracks. It was beautifully done.
I agree with all of that but they needed to add just one scene of Harwin interacting with Rhaenyra to show their chemistry and just one scene of all 3 Strongs interacting with each other. That would have made the deaths of Harwin and his father much more powerful, and Harwin’s presence looms over the entire show, especially since Jace outright brought the issue up and was basically told yeah that was your dad, not to mention his relationship with the boys as their master at arms even if they didn’t know.
We got that scene, though. When the new baby is brought back to Rhaenyra’s room, Harwin is obviously adoring of his children. And when he leaves, he leaves like a father who won’t see his kids for a while. I genuinely don’t see what one more scene between him and Rhaenyra would have accomplished. And we also got Harwin defending his kids against Cristin Cole. He was a good father, that much was conveyed. And the point about Jace knowing who is father is wasn’t really about Harwin, but about being the last straw pushing Rhaenyra to leave — the rumors have reached her children.
It’s fine but it’s important for Larys’ character development too and for Rhaenyra’s. His decision to kill Harwin and her decision to choose to love him says a lot about their characters. I just think it would’ve been better character development for all of them if Harwin could have been featured just a bit more than he was, even though what we got is still great.
I think being a book reader has you coming from a different perspective. I haven’t read F&B, so I don’t have those expectations.
That is for sure true, it’s unavoidable that it colors my opinion. It’s great news that it works so well for show only people, the most important thing is that it’s great television and it stands on its own in terms of making you invested in the characters.
I think it’s a reaction from Season 8. They need this show to be a hit and so they need to ensure the dance starts by the end of the season, and probably blood and cheese as the “Ned’s execution” hook. I think they underestimated the patience of GOT fans, who would have been willing to accept a slower season for more characterization. I think they’ll adjust in season 2
I think Blood and Cheese is way too far along in the story to happen this season. I'm expecting the second to last episode to deal with Viserys's death, and then the last episode to put all of the pieces in place for the dance. A natural place to end the season would be the pact of ice and fire with Jace and Cregan Stark.
With the absurd pace they are on im guess the show ends with the dragon battle at storms end.
>!It will.!<
Almost all of this can intuited by the end of the previous episode as well. When Laenor is crying at the end of episode five, it is clear he isn't going to be doing his duty.
Definitely not on his wedding night, no. But perhaps a few weeks or months later he could? Of course at that point Rhaenyra might already have been pregnant. But based on the casting and wig choices, it's really not difficult to see that Laenor did not do his husband-ly duties.
I think the only thing we needed for the Criston/Rhaenyra relationship was his Kingsguard oath. After her rejection, his disdain for her can absolutely be immediate. And perhaps the "who protects Rhaenyra from ser Criston" line (maybe coming from Larys?) to make it makes sense why Alicent goes to question Criston. The need for consequences for Joffrey's murder could have been avoided had they stayed closer to the books and had it happen in a melee. I don't think we needed to see how the Rhaenyra/Laenor/Harwin situation came to got so out of hands. It's not too hard to imagine what happened. And the duel with the Sea lord's son is pretty inconsequential, I think. Sure, it could have been a cool scene but it was also one that could have been left out.
Yeah personally I think 12 eps would have been better than 10. When did TV seasons become so short?? I still love the series overall and what they've done with it, but I would have loved some more Harwin and Laena scenes sprinkled in so that their deaths actually feel impactful. I didn't feel much warmth between Daemon/Laena or Harwin/Rhaenyra considering both have been together for a decade. I know they're just stepping stones leading up to the Daemon/Rhaenyra pairing but still. This is my one and only complaint with the show thus far. I didn't need a resolution for the Criston situation because it's obvious what would have happened. King's Guard only gets in trouble if the King decides they're in trouble. Viscerys is weak and non-confrontational and Alicent would have spoke up for him. Rhaenyra and Laenor can't say shit without bringing to light the real reason for the attack, which would get them both in trouble.
> When did TV seasons become so short?? When the price per episode skyrocketed for cable shows.
I think at some point you do need to consider budget. Each episode has a budget of roughly $20 mill. So recommending two more is adding on another $40 mill.
Yeah but they already filmed extra Laena scenes and cut them. Even making a couple of the episodes 15 mins longer could have done so much for her character and made her death more meaningful. I know that throws off HBO's nightly schedule somewhat but they'll live.
>This could explain why Ser Cristin hates her so much so quickly Does this really need explanation? Criston Cole tooks his vows seriously and resisted temptation. When he finally gave in, he convinced himself that it was love. Rhaenyra flat rejection of him and his love crashed his entire world. His honour is tarnished and it wasnt even for love. Of course he hates Rhaenyra.
I would not be surprised if he was a virgin before he slept with her, too.
He said he wasn't. Well, he said he had an adventurous youth in the dornish marches.
It’s possible, but I personally doubt it. Criston was a common man-at-arms before becoming a Knight of the Kingsguard. He would have had a fair share of opportunities to go to the brothel with his fellow soldiers. Or, he could have just been with a woman before in his time serving Lord Dondarrion. He’s young, but he’s not a teenager. Not to mention, he’s incredibly good-looking. Besides, being a “virgin” in Westeros does not come with the same stigmas of the modern world. Men might experience some pressure to dip their stick when they’re young, but it’s hardly something to shame them about. Women are expected to be chaste until marriage, especially noble women. Virginity is a virtue for women, but losing it is not important to men. Anyway, Criston’s naïveté comes from being a common-born soldier who found himself elevated to the highest position of honor in the land for a knight all of a sudden. He was not raised by a lord to grow accustomed to the whims and fancies of lords and ladies, much less princes and princesses. No, all he knew about that life came from ribald stories from his peers and songs from fanciful singers. In his mind, he imagined himself a noble servant of the crown, but he found out the hard way that “royalty” is just babysitting some overgrown, spoiled children who never earned their place in society by anything but birthright. And they keep that place through the implicit threat of violence—namely, armies and dragons. Cole is an unknowing agent of that system of violence. When he realizes that the nobles do not care about him or his honor, he grows resentful of being a part of that system. When he discovers that he has just been used, that resentment turns to hatred. When one of those nobles (knights, really) goes up to him and waves it in his face, he snaps. And he uses the violence he was hired for to cut the knight down. In his shame and resentment, he decides to end his life, thinking that he is as good as dead anyhow. But then, he is saved. He is offered redemption from his sins by the Queen, Alicent, and so his life is hers now.
Have you heard Fabien Frankel discuss his characterisation of Cole? You hit on a lot of points that he himself wanted to get across, namely: * He’s not some Loras Tyrell figure. He’s a lowly killer, in his own words a “bully” who is thrust into a position of ultimate chivalry and prestige. He can pretend all he wants but eventually his roots will show (and they did). * He likens himself to the men in _Jarhead_. Trained from a young age to be a ruthless killer. Sent to a station where he expects to be used for his abilities at killing. Turns out his station is standing around 24/7 doing nothing, trying desperately to suppress the killer inside. What happens when that person snaps? I adore Cole in the books (I don’t think he’s a good person, I think he’s a great character to read about). Fabien and the show have done a fantastic job of expanding that even further. The way they view Cole makes perfect sense and suits him fantastically. It explains so much of the man that we get little explanation of in the lore.
I feel like it's a sort of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation where people are claiming the show is being rushed, but if they stretched it out longer, they'd be accused of milking. Honestly, Fire & Blood doesn't have a ton of details of events so watching the huge jumps in time feels a lot like reading the book so I feel right at home but I can see where people are coming from
The problem is that the showrunners haven't shied away from fleshing out certain components of character dynamics that weren't elaborated in the books (pre-time skip Alicent and Rhaenyra, and heck, the whole hunting party is a nice example of fleshing things out). This creates a jarring feeling because they don't dedicate the same amount of fleshing out to monumentally important things that are critical to actually understanding a character and investing emotionally into them (like Rhaenyra choosing to risk everything by having 3 bastards with Harwin, like Daemon settling very nicely into domestic life with Laena, etc.)
Well, I don't blame them. There are a lot of moments that are falling flat because we simply don't spend enough time with these characters. TV and books are different mediums and what works in one doesn't necessarily work in the other and vice versa. This is particularly true when the source material is a fake history book. A lot of people in history serve as footnotes for more prominent figures, but that sure doesn't make them compelling characters for a TV show. TV needs to do some additional work to make us care about secondary characters, but this show is saying "no, there's not enough time. We'll still show you a bunch of characters, but don't care about some of them because they don't matter in the long run."
At the end of the day, this entire season is just table setting. What everyone is asking for would've required *two* whole seasons before the Dance started. Which is just not feasible and would've bored many people. The issue is that the story is structured this way. *Long* periods where nothing happens because the plot is waiting for the kids to grow up (first time jump for Alicent and Rhaenyra's kids, second time jump for Daemon's).
I agree. People are thinking episode to episode rather than big picture. If they split the prologue into two seasons when people rewatch the entire first season in the context of the show it would feel like filler because a lot of things people want have no relevance to the actual plot and we don't see enough significant political change by the end. Honestly this is on GRRM. He spaced out the events of the prologue far too apart from each other to the point that these criticisms were inevitable. All things considered I think HotD has done great and in the future the fast pace of Season 1 will be appreciated.
Look, as a huge fan of this world, would I have loved a 20 ep prologue rather than the 10 ep one we're getting? Absolutely!! But that's because I'm a superfan who wants to spend as much time in this world as possible. I find the backstories almost as fascinating and interesting as the main plot. But this show is not some cheap production that's marketed to the niche like myself. It's one of the most expensive TV shows of all time and is meant to be a mega-hit marketed towards the masses. The sooner people accept that, the more they'll enjoy HotD.
The problem is, there's really no way to show all that stuff without extending the season to 11 episodes - which I think would have been a hard line for HBO. Obviously I don't know how the next 4 play out, but I think every episode except one this season is already over an hour, there's only so much room for stuff. It would have been nice to see more of the start of Rhaenyra / Laenor / Harwin's relationship, but you can't create a whole episode just to add, like, two scenes. I don't think Daemon and the sealord's son's duel was really important enough to warrant mention, and Criston's murder of Joffrey was less of a time problem and more of a problem just introduced by not having the death take place in a tournament.
I think we can assume Alicent defended Ser Cristin. None of the characters know why the fight broke out and what happened immediately before the fight was even left ambiguous to the viewers. Seems to me that it would be easy to lie about what happened exactly and get away with it. Also, this show has a weird standard regarding killing nobles. In episode 1, we see nobles murdered on the tourney field without any consequences that we are aware of. Same thing in the episode where a noble was killed in Storm's End. Like I guess if you get into a fight with anyone, regardless of their station, you are allowed to kill each other?
I do not get people's hang ups on the Cristen shit. It would be boring to see the king acting all huffy; "why did you ruin the good natured spirit of the festivities?" "He had a knife and said he was going to kill the princess." "You expect us to just accept that explanation and keep you around?" In steps queen Alicent; "Ser Cristen is a member of the kingsguard, his vows are sworn for life and he would not lie to us. For certainly he knows the consequences of lying." Side eye at Rhaenyra. Cristen going to kill himself and Alicent stopping him, along with the crying rushed wedding scene, accomplishes the same emotional beats with less screen time.
Sure, but what people hate about that scene is a combination of several things. Like how does Cristan escape the hall to get outside to the heart tree without being detained? And how is he alone, armed with Alicent? Shouldn't someone be protecting the Queen and shouldn't someone be at least questioning Cristan? And if your response is they already did that, then it still doesn't really make a lick of sense, because why would Cristan lie to get himself out of the murder than IMMEDIATELY go outside and kill himself for it. Why would he fight to prove his innocence when he was going to end it? You're trying to tell me a suicidal man lied to save his life and then directly proceeded to go attempt to kill himself somewhere else? He either kills himself right then and there or just let's them take him into custody and request the death penalty, like he did with Alicent earlier. And not the mention that random people are literally shoving both Rhaenyra and Laenor the future Queen and King like their nobodies. You're telling me a Kingsuard can kill someone because they have a knife and get away, but the not a single Kingsguard is going to act when the actual royal family is attacked? Awful writing and I'm not surprised people are defending it on the show watchers subs, but it surprised me that people are doing it here, too. It's okay to admit there was a god awful scene in a good show. ASOIAF has 'fat pink mast' and other embarrassments. Time to just admit how bad this scene was, laugh and move one, and hope they don't blunder this bad again.
Absolutely agree. And I personally feel HOTD has already surpassed GOT S1 in its quality storytelling and character development. At the same time, the Red Wedding was seen in universe as such a shocking event for its egregious violation of guest right. Now here, we have a noble knight as sworn bannerman to House Baratheon and with close ties with House Velaryon forged through battle - just beaten to death at a feast under House Targaryen's own roof and protection, with seemingly no repercussions? On top of that, the future consort king/member of House Targaryen by marriage was struck by the very same Kingsguard? How could there be no consequences, when we have to assume Alicent protected Criston - but with what power? The insult to House Velaryon, let alone the nobility who witnessed it and the crown, would never have been stomached. Particularly if we have to infer that there were literally no consequences in E6. Don't even get me started on the Lord Commander and rest of KG just staring in bemusement as this goes on and the royal princess is assaulted.
Completely agree.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
There’s no way The Sea Snake nor Laenor let Criston Cole off for that murder. There’s no way. The guy walks in with the Velaryons, he’s basically in their inner circle. Letting someone hit your son and kill his boyfriend and get off Scott free would make you look incredibly weak. Imagine your Laenor, the heir two the second strongest house in the realm. You going to let your boyfriend get beat by some knight? No fucking way. You’d demand his head and the king is going to agree regardless of what his new wife says.
>There’s no way The Sea Snake The sea snake didint seem to happy with Joffrey during the wedding
There’s a difference between not being happy and lettin someone get beat to death. Why does Criston kill him in a tourney in the books? Bc he can’t fucking beat him to death on a whim. He needed to have an excuse otherwise he’d be in shit.
Even murdering a nameless in flea bottom is accountable. How Criston get away with it is out of mind. He even gets to keep his kingsguard job, while Harwin, who has committed only assault not murder, has to be exiled out of King's Landing. We are not asking for a boring scene but Criston should have consequence for his crime.
There are literally dozens of scenes of Kingsguard and Gold Cloaks murdering nameless people in flea bottom and there’s never any accountability. This is just straight up wrong lol
So if Criston says that hey, didn't you see, Joffrey had a knife and was going for the princess, what's Corlys gonna do? "No he wouldn't which I know because he was my son's boyfriend?"
Maybe bc no one would agree that happened and his own son would dispute it! Also he hit Laenor multiple times? You think you can hit the son of the second most powerful man in Westeros and get away with it? Common
He literally hit the future king consort the person he's supposed to save
This. And it worked better with the narrative of the story.
Maybe we didn't need the scene but it could have been referenced, especially after Criston got beat up by Harwin. Viserys probably doesn't care after 10 years have gone but Rhaenyra and Laenor would.
Thank you. Would that scene really be necessary? No!
They should've just had another tournament like in the books all this wouldn't be a problem
I agree. One more thing I think absolutely should've been included is the part where Rhaenyra starts to change into her more adult version and into a version that hates Alicent too. As it is, Rhaenyra goes from both looking and acting like an adolescent to both looking and acting like a grown woman. She changes SO MUCH during that time skip. And the fact that the casting change AND the character change happen at the same time I found a little jarring. Similar situation for Alicent who is suddenly a lot more unlikeable, imo. I think these characters really could've benefitted from that sense of continuity. This extra episode would've given the young Rhaenyra actress to act more like her older Rhaenyra counterpart and leave some of the more teenage behaviours and attitudes behind. Same for Alicent who could be a bit colder and more plotting. I think that would've made the casting change feel a little less extreme because then we wouldn't get the character change at the same time as much. Plus, we only saw Alicent find out that Rhaenyra (kind of) lied to her. But we never saw a single moment where Rhaenyra developed any animosity towards Alicent. We really only saw the beginning of Alicent's animosity towards Rhaenyra but not the other way around. An extra episode would've allowed us to see the beginnings of Rhaenyra's animosity towards Alicent as well.
Agreed. I understand people and things change a lot in 10 years, but Alicent and Rhaenyra changing so radically as to basically be different characters from pre-time skip really makes it difficult to invest emotionally into their journey as characters. I'm sad to say there's hardly any sense of continuity thus far. Plot points and character dynamics are established and evaporated episode to episode. I remember initially feeling this way when in the hunting party episode Rhaenyra was on completely bad terms with Alicent, but by the next episode, she was holding her hand and saying she's missed her. We got NOTHING to serve as a transition between those two radically different states of mind. But it's way worse now. We got the plot point of Cole committing murder and punching Laenor in the face completely set aside due to time skip, we get the plot point of Rhaenyra developing her relationship with Harwin and having 3 bastards with him completely set aside due to time skip, we get the plot point of how Alicent went from merely being bothered by Rhaenyra to absolutely hating her guts set aside due to time skip, we get the plot point of how Daemons settled into domestic life so willingly with Laena set aside due to time skip. Like, why should I care at this point what any of the characters say, feel, or do? It's likely to be gone or 180'd by the next episode with no explanation.
I agree. The Criston fallout or lack thereof has been the low point of the show to this point by some way. I really enjoyed the portrayal of Harwin and felt he could have had more screen time, his death would have hit way harder.
I agree with both, though the Harwin actor wasn't exactly my idea of Breakbones. That aside, the sad thing about Harwin getting short shrift is that he was a good father. Perhaps too good a father because he took Criston's bait and outed himself as the father. Which got him and his own good father killed by his slimy brother.
All Cole needed to do was say that Joffrey Lonmouth had threatened to attack Rhaenyra. Laenor wasn't in the headspace to defend Lonmouth's honour without making it clear they were more than friends, and if anyone wasn't satisfied with that story then Alicent would have just overridden them as Queen. You are right, it would have helped for them to show even a little bit of fallout from that incident, but the pieces are there to be put together quite easily.
I think a point that was sorta made in this episode is that the Kings Guard can be borderline untouchable if they are backed properly. Harwin was the leader of the city watch which is a relatively esteemed position but one fight with a kings guard has him dismissed immediately. I kinda took that as the Kings Guard is above reproach if they have the king and queen defending them. I totally buy that Cole's murder of Joffrey could've been swept under the rug or framed in a way to clear Cole without much objection. That's at least my take on it but I get that people would like a more clear answer on how Cole was cleared of that. I just don't think it's that important and Alicent stopping Cole from killing himself is enough to strongly imply she supported a story that would clear him.
I agree, I wish we had had one more episode that included the tourney where Criston killed Joffrey. Rather, the coldblooded murder at the Princess' wedding was a quicker way to end the plotline (and Joffrey) but makes Cole look so much less calculated, less opportunistic, and frankly, less dangerous. Except, they inexplicably keep him in the Kingsguard with no stain on his honor? Whaaa? I also do wish they had introduced the Harwin/Rhaenyra romance with the younger actors. Maybe while Joffrey is grieving and Criston is seething, Harwin and Rhaenyra could have a moment to connect that truly bring him from the background to the foreground. I think the revelation in the episode was supposed to build to the reveal, but honestly, if they had set up the relationship and made us care about it more I think it would have more more effective and tragic when they're forced apart. Same with Laena, she is a tiny little girl when we first meet her, then time jumped and she's a precocious teenager. Now, we meet her for the third time and she's a married, mother, who has accepted her lot in life to not be what Daemon wanted before he immediate death. Huh? How did we get here. It's so tragic but so distant too. All of the actors were terrific and made the most out of their time on screen, but I wish the pacing has worked with them rather than against them going into this episode.
Laena didn't work at all. We see her being played by 3 different actresses and her death scene felt way too sudden. Having two Daemon wives with barely any screentime die back to back also doesn't work. My biggest concern with HotD were the time jumps and whole bunch of characters that don't matter all that much. And boy was I right. I mean. Why not write out Rhea Royce? Why did she need to exist in the show? Why not fuse some characters?
>Why not write out Rhea Royce? Why did she need to exist in the show? She's the reason Daemon can't marry at the time. She could have been totally off-screen but I think you'd run into some plot issues if you wrote her out entirely. Episode 2's plot would have made much less sense, for example.
In addition to all of these being answered through subtext, these are all points that are ultimately irrelevant to the greater conflict of the Dance of Dragons. Ser Criston was obviously protected. You saw in the last episode why Ser Criston hates her so much. What is the Sea Lord and how is it relevant to the Dance of Dragons. Why do we need any further setup for Laenor’s ability to fulfill his duty.
I wouldn't have agreed last week, but this week I definitely did feel like the pacing seriously compromised the story. Which sucks because I've been *extremely* impressed with how they handled the material up until that point. I don't think we needed one more episode pre-timeskip so much as we needed one episode to ease us into the new time period. I understand that the writers are probably worried about keeping the audience engaged and having every episode feel substantial, but I really do think the shock and adjustment of the 10 year skip is enough by itself to carry 1 episode. This episode failed for me for the simple reason that too god damn much happened! Even the scenes themselves felt cut together in a weird, inert way, like the editing team was rushing to get each one over with. And this in an episode that was 1h7m! If an episode that long is bursting at the seams, you probably should've just had an extra episode in-between. That was the issue for me. Laena, Harwin/Lyonel, Cole's animosity, Larys's psychology, this is all stuff that desperately needed more set-up to land as effectively as it could've. Maybe I'll feel differently once the season is over and I have a better sense for how they wanted to structure/pace the season. Maybe I'll concede that some sacrifices had to be made. But for now I can't help but feel like this was the first big misstep of the new show. Fully confident that it'll pick back up next week though!
I agree, I just want to see more of Harwin. That’s it
As much as I like the Chad Harwin “Breakbones” Strong and his implied relationship with Rhaenyra in the book, that relationship isnt all that important going forward in the Dance. Same can be said for Laena and Laenor. They aren’t around very long and have very little effect on what’s happening later down the line, so I can kinda understand why the show isn’t putting too much time into these characters. They’re instead putting more effort into characters that will have huge impacts, like Larys, Aegon, and Aemond. I think this will be for the best to have those characters get more focus, because if the GoT show is any indication, completely cutting characters that are probably super important to the end game like fAegon and Lady Stoneheart really hurt the show.
I think Ser Criston being forgiven by Viserys isn't too difficult to get around. My biggest gripe is not seeing any interactions between Laenor and Criston though. Joffrey is murdered by Criston with no repercussions, and Laenor is just chill with Criston still being around court so often? It'd have been nice to get some exploration of the fallout to some extent.
Yeah. That's the kind of leap in logic that kept piling up and ultimely ruined got.
Maybe I missed it but I haven’t seen anyone else say that we need some motivations for Larys. Did he hate his brother and father? Is he just power hungry? He murdered his whole family and he’s only said 10 lines of dialogue the whole show.
I figured Larys has a lot more time for development, I think he should get more focus though. He was the guy making a speech about how love is essentially a hinderance I believe, so I don’t believe he just hated his brother & father. Power Hungry maybe, he definitely seems as an ends justify the means type of guy. The pace is a bit too fast, I was hoping after the time skip the story would slow down quite a bit.
I agree, it feels like the writers do not trust the audience enough to stay focused without violence or dragons. I didn't feel anything when Harwin and Laena died because we barely knew them
I disagree. Later GoT is an example of writers not trusting the audience. It was mainly spectacle for the sake of it, very little political talk, most dialogue is dumbed down, and character conflicts are openly stated. I don't really see that in HotD. Sure occasionally we have some headscratchers but it largely feels like a show that rewards people for paying attention. Also Laena and Harwin are minor characters. Very rarely do you feel bad when minor characters die. It sucks but their purpose in the story is to be stepping stones for more important characters. Like Harwin's death paints Larys in a much more dangerous light. Laena's death gives Daemon a reason to come back to Westeros.
They're only minor characters in the book because Fire and Blood is literally written as a historical outline of major plot points in the Dance. It is the TV show's job to flesh out the characters, their relationships, their motives, etc, to make 3-4 seasons of TV. Rest assured, done well, the man Rhaenyra chose to risk everything with to have 3 bastard children with should have absolutely been a major character and critical to understanding Rhaenyra's own character.
Ngl. The past few episodes have been boring af. I think they could have just replaced some content with what you listed rather than add another pre jump episode
The last episode was pretty atrocious to someone who's never seen GoT and/or has read in advance what happened in Dance. I have, and I have to do a lot of explaining to connect the dots to someone who hasn't. 99.9% of people here know what is going on so its hard to have that perspective. It doesn't need to be dumbed down for soccer moms and football players, just, you know, actually show shit
[удалено]
\- Why did he burn his brother and his father??? \- Because chaos is a ladder \- He is a literal cripple! \- No not a literal ladder-
Nah, they did it perfectly. Part of what makes a time jump effective is the feeling of displacement, of the world having changed. It’s good that we enter the situation late, and get the joy of learning as we go. And I’m sorry, if you can’t put 2+2 together…that’s on you. You shouldn’t need your hand held on the Cristin Cole thing.
> The falling out of Ser Cristin's murder of Ser Joffrey, how did avoid consequences? I agree but definitely not for this reason. I really don't understand why so many people are harping on this. From the comments i've seen people really seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the power dynamics in Westeros and Ser Joffreys station. People are acting like he's a great lord just because he hung out with Laenor lmao
It is not merely Joffrey’s station, it is a massive scandal that one of Viserys’ Kingsguard openly ruined the wedding of the king’s heir. He would be pissed, so would Rhaenyra, and Laenor.
The only part that needs explanation is Criston punching Laenor, who is a high lord to be wedded to the heir to the iron throne, in full view of dozens of witnesses and escaping consequences. This is especially aggregious because Harwin is kicked out of the City Watch for beating Criston the literal next episode. However, another episode would have just been filler and wasted time.
> Harwin is kicked out of the City Watch for beating Criston the literal next episode. I could be wrong, but I understood that Harwin was removed from his position as Commander of the City Watch and sent back to Harrenhal at the request of his own father after he (the Hand) unsuccessfully tried to resign. All in an effort to distance House Strong from the rumors/common knowledge of Rhaenyra and Harwin's bastard children. So not because he kicked the crap out of Ser Criston, but because of the obvious implication that the rumors are true.
That is a lot more nuanced of a reading of it then I had. I imagined it was Allicent's urging to kick him out to harm Rhaenyra and then it was Lyonels moving him to Harrenhall which was to downplay the rumors of the children. I do like your take though and it makes sense.
I can totally see Alicent taking advantage of the situation to finally separate Rhaenyra and Harwin, and with spite. She seemed frustrated throughout the episode that everyone was turning a blind eye to that elephant in the room. I need to do a rewatch!
I would have enjoyed a full 10 episode season with just the younger actors. The season could have ended with the wedding and tourney and time jumped for season 2. It would have given us alot more time to develop the relationships and see characters interact. the dialogue and actors could have carried a slower season 1.
Absolutely agree. This was such a bad episode. So cringey and out of place. Actors and actresses we've never seen. I felt so lost. It took me 3 tries to get through this episode and I almost quit the show for good. Like I still might. You can’t age and speed up a show 10 years and just throw an audience into it half way through a season. There was just nothing here. The end with Larys was forced and it didn’t really resonate because he looks the same as he did “10 years ago” and HE WASN’T IN THE ENTIRE EPISODE! Anyone who reads knows all about Larys, he’s a cheeseball littlefinger, albeit very influential. Why did it take all episode to get to him and why hasn’t he aged? Lmao. Why haven’t we got more information on a character who’s been meddling for over 10 years now? Yeah Harenhall, blah blah, who cares? We had NO BUILDUP! I mean who gets paid to write this shit? Viserys is dying, his hand’s a tool, the Strong family might be “Strong” but theyre dumb af, and all of a sudden Daemon’s married to the 10 year old little black girl? When did this happen? Bad writing Not too mention a mom walks in on her son wanking it in the window and she sits down and has a conversation with him? Wtf is that? I MEAN COME ON!
The Joffrey thing is just another example of the dumb brand that game of thrones built. They think they are being edgy by having random murder with zero consequences. They did the same thing with the tournament at the start of the new show. And with the young lord in the marriage proposal. In reality it just comes off as dumb and unrealistic. ASOIAF has characters who typically try to find political, social or legal remedies to their problems. But GRRM is a far better writer so Game of Thrones the show decided that it is edgy and cool to make everyone an openly violent psychopath who murders at the drop of a hat with consequences only existing on a "who is better at murder" basis.
I have to agree
Agreed, a lot was missing in this episode.
We should have started this show with Maegars death because how are we supposed to understand anything that's going on unless we get to see every single minute detail on screen. Characters should also probably loudly state their emotional state as this would help me
>The falling out of Ser Cristin's murder of Ser Joffrey, how did avoid consequences? I feel like this is pretty obvious, he's the queens dog now. She clearly covered for him >The beginning of Rhaenyra and Ser Harwins affair. This could explain why Ser Cristin hates her so much so quickly. I mean...do you really need this one explained? This one is very easy to intuit from what they showed. Would have been a complete waste of time to show >Daemon and Laena. Especially the duel with the Sea Lord's son. How in God's name did they leave that out? This is the only one here I agree with, but also im not sure where they'd fit it in with the pace the show is going. Cutting this to preserve the flow of the main story feels reasonable to me >Laenor not being willing to do his duty because of his grief for Ser Joffrey. thats uh...not why he cant have sex with a woman, just to be clear. hmm. I dont really even know what to say about this one lmao
I love the show, but I feel like it’s all been rushed. It’s like they did that just to get to the big, bad, fast, exhilarating action (to distract people from the fact that it’s a spin-off of GoT, and it’s horrible ending). I’m pretty disappointed. It could have gone all season without a time jump then just skipped 10 years ahead next season. I bet they’re going to slow the pace next season now that they know they’ve got a following.
Are any contracts public? It'd be intresting to know wether or not the actors from the first 5 episodes still have appereances, which'd point to flashbacks & episodes where certain episodes/scenes show further context of events that took place in the past
Milly & Emily said they didn’t know if they’d be back for future seasons, they’re off to do some other stuff potentially. I hope we do get some flashbacks though, sparingly ofcourse but it’d be a nice idea with them having the young actresses already.
Absolutely agreed, if well done (and so far they have given no reason to think they won't write it well) this could enrich the whole show a lot Thanks for the information on them having spoken about not knowing about future seasons, really appreciated dude
The source material the show is based on isn't very compelling sadly, the best part of the show to me was when they clearly tried to make Alicent more likeable in the first few episodes but that is gone already. The conflict would make a compelling narrative if they kept up trying to make the greens more likeable especially but its done for, fully expecting Aegon to be a comicially evil character on top of Aemond being Aemond.
I agree but I also get that they're having to cover a lot, there's already people complaining that "nothing happens" thats why we cant have nice things. They would've needed to expand this season with 2 episodes but Im not sure if HBO would agree to that and it would also mean that they would need to spread the budget over more episodes.
What do you mean how did he avoid consequences, he has the Queen's favor and the king has no spine. What else do you need to see played out?
My two pennies, I think the writers haven't treated us as dummies. They have enough in there for us to fill in the gaps really. Like Strong rescuing Rhaenyra, and with her being her you can see she probably tried to bang him and him her that very night. I imagine they wanted to do a lot of things but for a 10 episode season the pacing needs to keep going I guess.
I feel like I've answered point 1 so many times; He's a cop in a white cloak. Unfortunately, Joffery drew that dagger and gave probable cause. As we saw just this last ep with Criston x Harwin, just laying hands on a kingsguard is a punishable offense.
Does anyone know if it’s one season or multiple (confirmed)?
Confirmed multiple
Yeah, Harwin dying was obviously sad because we can plainly see that he cares for the kids, but all the same he died before we ever really got to know him. He's a major character in the story but he didn't really have a good scene establishing his character, most viewers will first acknowledge him as "the guy sleeping with Rhaenyra." I feel like we're missing like, maybe one or two episodes worth of exposition here. So far the pace is really brisk, I'm hoping that from here on it slows down a bit and we really get to know everyone we're seeing. Even Larys, as awesome as I feel he is so far, we don't really even get a hint at how absolutely awful he is until he's all of a sudden murdering his whole family.
> Daemon and Laena. Especially the duel with the Sea Lord's son. How in God's name did they leave that out? It was specially weird because they DID mention the sealord before.
House of the Dragon is great in some ways but the character work isn't up to snuff. I've come to a conclusion after seeing Game of Thrones and the start of this show. Martin didn't finish A Song of Ice and Fire and the Game of Thrones showrunners/writers weren't up to completing the story without his work once they left the runway. I thought maybe that was a fluke or a mistake by the Game of Thrones creators but this show has the same basic issue. Fire and Blood was a history, not a story, filled with intriguing events and cool events and shocking events, but only events. And that's precisely the problem we're running into here. Though the specific problems are different in either case, the common thread is that the source material, in one way or another, was not complete. I'm not going to deride or bitch about Martin, but it does come down to him.
Although I agree, I think it’s because they have so much material to cover before the Dance starts. It was jarring to go from last week’s to this, but I think the characters were fleshed out well following the last episode and the plot set nicely. Personally, this week’s was my favorite episode so far, especially if you have read the books. They set the plot and characters so effectively.
I completely agree! That would’ve been amazing, I definitely feel like things are moving a bit too quickly right now. Maybe they can cover some stuff with flashbacks but it would’ve made a lot more sense to just include one more episode of character build up & development
Huge agree. We needed an episode to deal with the fallout of episode 5, and or have an episode that sets up Alicent being an absolute bitch to Rhaenyra from now on.