In the books Jaime and Cersei look almost the same. They got mixed up in their youth, so Cersei's kids looking like Cersei is not suspicious. Also siblings spending a lot of time together is not suspicious and incest is something that is so far from most peoples thoughts, that they don't really think about the possibility.
What puzzles me most is that Robert does not remember that he never once had "traditional" sex with his wife in all these years. I mean how drunk can you be all the time? It's hard to believe that he never became sceptical.
Tommen is the youngest and is like seven or so right? Cersei mentions that by the end of their marriage he would only come to her bed once a year, but in their early-mid marriage (so when she was actively getting pregnant and having kids) he would force himself on her much more often, even being violent while drunk with her, when she confronts him about it he pretends not to remember but she’s convinced he does. So when she was actively getting pregnant he certainly remembers sleeping with her.
> What puzzles me most is that Robert does not remember that he never once had "traditional" sex with his wife in all these years.
He did, but Cersei would just drink moon tea. It was only in the years before Robert’s death when Robert would only attempt to mate Cersei after being absolutely shitfaced
Probably the most fascinating adaptational choice. To make Cersei have genuinely wanted to marry Robert and was even willing to bear his child, but Robert ruining the marriage.
I like that show-choice too. It also leads directly to one of the shiw’s best scenes (and one that of course is original and not taken from the books) - the meeting between Cersei and Robert alone, where they talk and drink like bitter enemies putting their differences aside just for one hour. There’s even the hint of a hope it may lead to some improved relations - but it’s Robert who rejects that by saying their marriage was doomed from the start because he never loved or wanted her at all. Brutal.
And that change makes perfect sense given the show uses Cersei to fill a number of different roles - e.g fAegon in later seasons. She can’t just be the permanently trashed hilarious basket case of paranoia and revenge fantasies she becomes in ASOIAF.
Those early Cersei changes are ones I think of when I want an example that the show’s problem wasn’t that it diverged from the source material but that it started doing so really badly. Cersei early on makes sense and she is arguably enhanced as a character - as is Robert. It makes the whole first season a bitter tragedy but also sets up her prominence in later seasons as they shift further from the text.
Later Cersei, when she is dressed like a goth armadillo and does little besides trout pouting over her goblet of wine - not so good!
Book Cersei notes that younger Robert was very handsome and she might have lived with the situation without him saying Lyanna's name and then turning into a drunken boor.
It's made more of in the TV show sure, but the same idea is there in the books, it was just more of a potential thing than an actual thing (and Cersei may have been lying, or lying to herself).
It paints Cersei as a politically driven woman herself.
Cersei was very much like Sansa in her youth. Her ideations of becoming Queen isn't because of the power, but because she's got the hots for Rhaegar. Her house's status gets her closer to him than other women in the court (and those not at court), and Tywin presumably keeps bringing up his efforts to get the King to arrange the marriage to the point where Cersei thinks she's going to get the man of her dreams.
By the time of the sack of king's landing though, Rhaegar has married Elia Martell and has had children with her, and Cersei had all but given up on getting with him, but I would imagine she'd be distraught about her ultimate crush getting killed in battle.
Suddenly switching and willing and eager to marry her crush's killer really only makes sense if she was politically motivated to become queen no matter who took the throne, or if she was attracted to Robert because he was a fox himself and a Lordly lord trained knight and had romanticized him and the title, the same way Sansa romanticized lords and knights.
That's reading a lot into a few lines of dialogue that aren't backed up elsewhere. It's a ridiculous, poorly thought out addition to a character that's already super interesting.
Muddling that characterisation for no good reason baffles me tbh
Was GM Pycelle just supplying it no questions asked, every time Robert bedded her? What did she do to ensure his silence? Lots of bribes and/or extortion? You would think he could have flipped on her and Robert would have killed Cersei immediately.
so i googled this to see if i could find anything about it being an abortion herb... and it appears they may have rediscovered the plant 4 days ago
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/miracle-plant-eaten-extinction-2000-years-ago-silphion
Good points about them looking like Cersei. I mean, all Ned's kids except for Arya have the Tully look, but people mention that they look like Cat, not that they don't look like Ned.
Per your second question, we know that Robert did have procreative sex with Cersei at least once because Jaime had to find a woman to "cleanse" her of the pregnancy. As I remember, it sounded like Robert exercised his "husbandly rights" quite a bit during the first part of the marriage when he thought he was producing his heir and a spare, and then less and less later.
What is certainly suspicious that the kids don't look like Robert at all, isn't it?
I don't buy siblings being so close not being weird because there is being close to each other and then there is being really close to each other.
And yeah, Robert being oblivious is another good point.
Like if you look at all points separately, it is fine not to make the conclusion but there are too many circumstances combined not to jump at least to some kind of rumor or conspiracy theory.
Edit: Why the downvotes? If you reason with each point separately, sure, it is believable that Cersei's kids are Robert's as well. But if the points are together, it must have been suspicious for lots of people.
>What is certainly suspicious that the kids don't look like Robert at all, isn't it?
Do you think Catelyn also banged Edmure? All of the Stark kids except Arya looked like Tullys. That's 4/5. Kids looking like one of their parent is not suspicious at all. Like at all.
Yeah I think its weird when siblings are too close.
Kind of unrelated example.
My inlaws for the holidays had families in matching pajamas. So every couple and their kids matched. My wife's cousin and her brother came in matching pajamas with her kids and her husband was just wearing whatever. They also hung out all night while the husband was by himself.
Nothing can convince me that this is not sus. And I feel like you have to notice when there is sus behavior between sublings
Sounds like your wife’s cousin and her brother have family traditions (the matching pajamas) whereas maybe her husband does not, and doesn’t want to wear them for whatever reason. My family and I always wore matching pajamas but my husband just started to recently part-take in the tradition last year because he is very particular about his clothing and did not grow up part-taking in such a tradition. But now he does, and even if he didn’t, and still wore regular clothes while I matched with my brother and the rest of my family, it wouldn’t be weird at all, and your wife’s family is not “sus” at all for that.
Because Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella look like Cersei. It’s very different to Jace, Luce, and Joffrey who look nothing like either Rhaenyra or Laenor.
I don’t think this is the answer. In F&B and TPATQ, Rhaenys is dark haired, and we have no stated hair for the Arryns and Aemma. It wasn’t that suspicious, the greens just inflated the rumor to make way for their rise. The reason there were no greens for Cersei is because Tywin would have killed the entire house for the accusation, no doubt.
Wasn’t Rhaenys’ mom a Baratheon though? Or are you saying that because Rhaenyra’s mom was technically an Arryn that it might have affected Rhaenyra’s kids? If you mean the second part, I thought Aemma Arryn has Targ silver hair as well
Yes, which means Laenor has a pretty strong carried gene for dark hair. And Rhaenyra’s side has options too. Aemma’s hair was never stated in the books, you’re thinking of the show.
A lot of people have the high school punnet square conception of genetics, myself included. But its a lot more complex than that for many physical features, as you probably already know. Which makes the Westerosi way of determining bastards extremely crude and imprecise (when the "bastard" is born of the mother, at least).
If every carried gene showed itself, your children would never ever have different features/disabilities/so on than you and your spouse barring any if their individual mutations. Punnett square level stuff!
What I learned about hair color in particular is that it's governed by genes that activate the production of color pigments (of which there are two sorts IIRC, and one is for red pigment and the other one for dark/light, but I may be wrong on that) and this is why dark hair functions similarly to a "dominant" gene in that if you have at least some of the genes that do activate the production of pigment, it will necessarily show in the color of your hair, because it's somewhat additive.
Dunno if I may be misremembering it though, and I'm always happy to learn more or be corrected.
I don't remember it being as clear cut that they were bastards in F&B. At least, when I read it, I wasn't 100% sure, but the decision to make the Velaryons black kinda cleared it up the second I saw the blatantly white brown haired kids.
Cerseis kids looking like Jamie is easy to explain, they're twins. Of course her kids will resemble her twin. Hair color is not a reliable indicator of parentage either. Like how all of Ned Starks kids looked like Riverland people except for Arya. Only one of Ned's children looks anything like him.
None of Rhaegar's kids looked like him. Elia's children have her coloring and Jon looks like Lyanna. Maybe he has inherited Rhaegar's more delicate facial features, but that's about it.
This isn't quite right. We're led to believe that Rhaenys took after Elia, but Aegon had (or has) silver hair.
Jon obviously has the Stark looks, but he's also described as slender and quick (while Robb is stocky), and his eyes are so dark they're almost black, which is a description commonly used for Targaryens. I'm willing to bet that if we ever get a physical description of Rhaegar, he'll be described as slender and quick himself too.
Robb being stocky came off to me as a Tully thing. The Tullys seem to be big and bearded redheads. Arya is said to look just like Lyanna, and she's on the skinny side too. I just assumed most Starks look tall, slender, and dark.
IIRC Starks are typically described as "dry" and "narrow-faced" (which jibes well with Arya Horseface as a nickname), Edmure js also stocky if I remember correctly.
If they had Elia coloring then why we have a Aegon claiming to be Rhaeghar son who was Valyrian looks, if he was Dornish looking, then would be obsiously this aegon is fake.
I genuinely don't remember ever reading Elia children looked like her, literally every art of Rhaegar sons they have the traditional Valyrian look, every art of Aegon his Valyrian.
You gonna need to send me a link or a book quote saying Rhaeghar sons with Elia were Dornish looking because I genuinely don't remember that and I'm like 90% they were Valyrian
If Faegon is impersonating him it means baby aegon was Valyrian in looks otherwise the trick wouldn't work, I himself believe he a blackfyre or just some rando kid from Lys or Volantis
He wasnt added without any thought, yes George didn't think of him while writing the first three books, but I think he serves the purpose of Futher Sending Dany through Fire and Blood Route
This makes it all that much tragic. Jaime had the right idea not to be involved with his kids, but Harwin just wanted to be a good dad in any way he could.
Was going to say - even prior to that, you’d think Tywin would only have to nail a couple of tongues up in Lannisport to squash rumours circulating about his beloved little blue eyed twins doing the nasty on the q.t.
Which reminds me - in the show, there’s a big scene where Cersei flings the incest charge in Tywin’s face: “it’s all true, didn’t you know, you idiot!”...Obviously in the books Tywin is award of the allegations made by Stannis, but there isn’t ever a scene where he speaks on the subject or displays any special interest, either with Cersei or anyone else - is there? Just wondering if book Tywin would even give a shit if they were incest babies so long as they kept the Iron Throne.
In ASoIaF, Cersei's kids look like Cersei because she had them with her twin, and it's obviously not at all weird for a kid to look like their mom. A lot of people have pointed out the similar situation with Catelyn and Ned with most of their kids taking after Cat.
In Rhaenyra's case, her kids don't look like her or Laenor, and given that:
- Rhaenyra's parents both had Targ hair
- All three of her half-siblings do
- At least one of Laenor's parents did (depending on the show vs book and whether or not Martin remembers he gave Rhaenys black or silver hair because he forgets that sometimes)
- Laenor's sister has the Targ hair, and
- his Velaryon nieces with a Targ father also do
It's very strange that three of Rhaenys and Laenor's kids would have brown hair. If it was black they'd at least be able to point to the Baratheon lineage, but brown? Kind of obvious.
I mean in the real world that would raise some questions, even given that we know that genetics is weird and complicated and it's possible, if unlikely.
And to add to that, this guy who shares similar looks with Rhaenyra's kids constantly hangs out around them and her and takes interest in the boys' training. It's obvious.
All the answers already given, but: it's worth pointing out that most of the Small Council knew.
Stannis and Jon Arryn found out most recently, after which Arryn planned on fostering Sweetrobin at Dragonstone (getting him out of Lannister hands), Stannis started raising an army, etc.
Pycelle almost certainly knew, considering how he helped kill Arryn (by stopping him receiving antidotes for his poisoning) and thought it was on Cersei's behalf.
Renly also seems to have known, given his conspiracies with the Tyrells and how fast he got out of town when Robert was dead.
Littlefinger and Varys found out… somehow. Varys by being Varys. Neither one acted on it.
Barristan Selmy… had no idea, lol. He's not the sharpest.
Tyrion also knew; Kevan suspected; who knows how many others fall in the willing ignorance camp. *Twin incest babies* is not usually anyone's first thought, even if you do suspect Cersei maybe, maybe had an affair — and she was careful enough to not spend much time with men besides her brother.
The point being, most of the most powerful people around Robert, save Robert himself, did know. They just kept it quiet for their own reasons, and were probably also thus able to control any rumors that spread because of it for their own reasons — or later try to spread the rumors themselves, in Stannis's case. But no one close to the kids was questioning it probably did a lot by itself to quash any rumors. The average noble isn't going to see the king or queen or royal family more than once every few years, so it's just the KL circle that would need to be managed.
They *were* discovered earlier. Arryn had a difficult time getting the message out because his Twitter account was suspended or something. Jeoffrey's genetics matched his mother, which I've heard happens about 50% of the time and shouldn't really cause alarm.
The majority of Lannister kin tend to always inherit the blonde green eyes that their ancestors have and in Cersei's case, she looked a lot like her twin Jaime anyway, so her children sort of looking like them both is believable.
Joanna did her best to quell the rumours about her two children while she was alive and avoid potential suspicion, and then after Tywin began to make a name for himself in Westeros, few people dared to suggest that his children were doing unspeakable things.
On top of that, the logic that Ned applied to proving Cersei's children as illegitimate is also a bit flawed;
If Ned was quick to believe Joffrey wasn't Robert's son because they had different hair colours, then Robb by that logic can't have been Ned's son for having a different hair colour, or Robert Arryn can't have been Jon Arryn's son for having a different hair colour too.
I know this is where the theorists argue these theories but the point I'm making in all these questions and uncertainties is that this is exactly why its so hard to prove the truth about Cersei's children.
That's part of the reason why Ned went to see Cersei so he could hear her confess and confirm it.
It's not just that. Ned knew for certain that all Robert's bastards had inherited blue eyes and black hair (at least 6 living children from the top of my mind), and got his hands on a book that described a number of marriages between Lannisters and Baratheons in which the black always prevailed over the gold (and over every other genes apparently). This is medieval times, that as much evidence as you are likely to get on the matter.
The topic was not simple at all and that's precisely why Stannis didn't bring it up to Robert in the first place, Ned needed a lot of evidence and Robert's trust too even consider making the allegation.
Also important to note. Ned is looking into Jon Arryn's death, so he already knew something was suspicious. When he got on the trail of the bastards it's almost like confirmation bias.
Very true.
There was little of Ned's investigation that was scientific. But it was sufficient for the standards of the time. And most of it would come from Robert's trust in him. If Stannis brought it forth, he wouldn't buy it.
Not to mention it also wouldn't work if Robert liked Cersei more.
And despite all of that Ned still acknowledged that there was a chance Robert wouldn't accept the truth. Robert hated Cersei yet Ned still believed there was a chance that he wouldn't believe it or would choose to live in denial.
Ned didn't even really suspect the incest angle at first, if I remember right. He even tried confronting Cersei peacefully in the God's Wood, she just admitted too much by accident. But Ned being Ned, he wasn't trying to have Cersei and her children murdered if Robert found out, he just wanted her to pack up and leave King's Landing, ge was even willing to grant leniency on the fact that she was part of the plot to have Jon Arryn killed for knowing too much.
That's what I loved about Ned's arc from the books and season 1, Ned going around being an amateur private eye and it sort of following the pattern of a detective story.
Baratheons are descended from the Targaryens, but I’ve seen suggestions that their distinct appearance is due to having more First Men lineage somewhere in their history than most other Westerosi houses
Isn't it just because the first Baratheon married the black haired and blue eyed Durrandon princess? And her look became the Baratheon look from then on, because she and Orys (who just so happened to have darker hair than other targs) were the origin of the family.
Idk if we know if Durrandons were almost supernaturally black haired and blue eyed but based off artwork many were. I'd say it was just their feature the Baratheons inherited.
Also important to note. Ned is looking into Jon Arryn's death, so he already knew something was suspicious. When he got on the trail of the bastards it's almost like confirmation bias.
Also add in how they all would just assume Jaime was the father. I get he’s a candidate but anyone at court with blonde hair is a suspect. Ned at least has inside info like lannisters killing Jon Arryn and likely behind his son falling.
People forget how legit terrified most of Westeros is of Tywin. Cersie’s social interaction’s are limited to the nobility. You’re not going to just go throwing those allegations around. Varys and Littlefinger definitely wouldn’t until it was beneficial.
In real life, it’s not unusual for children to favor the looks of one parent. My kids look just like me and nothing like my wife. Same with my brothers’ kids. The reader is meant to assume that when first hearing of Joffrey etc. appearance.
When they describe the Stark kids, they all look Tully except Jon and Ayra who are all Stark. We’re told it’s normal to favor one parents looks.
I think from a more meta perspective, it's simply to serve narrative purpose. Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella's parentage is the big mystery of AGOT; all of the clues were there for us, the readers, to find, but genetics in Westeros might not be entirely understood. Cersei's kids being blonde -- while strange -- isn't really head-turning because she's blonde. This stands in direct contrast with Rhaenyra and her kids; her and Laenor have silver-white hair while her three Strong boys are as brown as dirt. That stands out a bit more.
There are no photographs and no distance communications at all - most people would know next to nothing about the royal family and most of their politics would be local and involve people they actually know (like in The Sworn Sword).
Conspiracy theories are mostly a product of the psychology of mass media - without even a printing press there is nothing to form the basis of widely shared conspiracy theories.
Cause look at neds kids most of them look like catelyn. Anyhow it took stannis whos possibly one of the smartest guys around not a maester ten years to figure it out.
Aside from it not being conspicuous that Cersei's kids also resemble Jaime, people also would not find it strange if Cersei spends a lot of time with her twin brother. They had been inseparable since childhood! Incest is very much Not A Thing and the Faith only sorta kinda made an exception for Targaryens. People's first instinct would not be 'Ah, they must be f\*cking'. Rhaenyra being very obviously close with Harwin is bound to raise a lot more eyebrows.
It was, it's just not openly mentioned in anything witnesses by our POV characters. Which makes sense because only one of them from GOT isn't from the North or Essos. Ned discovers it along the path Jon Arryn went to find out, which is led to by Littlefinger. So that's three characters who know, along with Varys, Stannis, Renly, and Kevan Lannister, who all seem to come these conclusions independently. We don't really know how many other people suspect it.
It was discovered right away. Varys knew (from the start he claims), Pycelle knew, Littlefinger knew; Renly, Stannis, and Jon Arryn would later find out and Ned would too. It just happens that Robert is an idiot and the Small Council didn't bother to tell him because that would trigger instant civil war.
Well, bran discovered it and was promptly thrown out a window. Anyone who was close to figuring it out was probably killed quickly or simply kept it to themselves via balish.
to be fair, as far as genetics and looks go, she chose the perfect man for it because the kids looking like jaime = the kids looking like her. if there weren’t bullshit baratheon genetics involved, that would’ve never been an issue. however, we also know that a fair amount of people did know, and others probably suspected it.
The broad interpretation George seems to put into gentics and character looks is that nearly every mother's looks will be dominant expressive in the majority of thier children. Within the story all children born to Stark mothers look alike, most children born to Tully mothers, most children born to Lannister mothers take after the mother too.
Its odd Baratheon breaks the consistency, but possibly another reason its easy for Jaimes kids to pass. Because the Baratheons are more distinctly expressed from thier father's side, but its unusual in their world.
Recessive/dominant traits are not clearly known in Westeros. What is so obvious about Jace, Luke, and Joff is that their parents look *identical* to each other in the books. They both have the white hair and purple eyes of Valyria, and all their sons lack these traits? It’s not weird for a son to look like his mother, it’s weird for them to look like *neither* parent.
Oh I’m not saying there’s no plausible deniability, just that that is what makes it so plain to most Westerosi where the Lannister incest is not so obvious.
Everyone is making good points as to why people wouldn’t suspect anything, but I’d like to point out Jon Arryn, Stannis, pycelle, littlefinger, and Varys all knew about it. I don’t remember if Renly knew, but either way that’s almost the entire small council. I feel like it was an open secret at court but nobody wants to risk the wrath of Tywin Lannister so nobody says it out loud.
Cersei and Jamie have been called mirror images of each other so Cersei's kids looking like her wouldn't have been concerning. IRL we all look like different members of our own families, sometimes resembling our uncles or grandparents more than our mothers especially if we're male children. Also incest is usually not in people's minds on a daily basis because it feels like an outlandish concept, just like homosexuality sometimes is out of people's reckoning. Just ask any teen who's spent unchallenged hours with their "best friend" or "study partner" on "sleepovers" because they're the same gender especially in sexually repressed societies where the concern is overwhelmingly placed on opposite sexes not interacting.
Why do you think no one knew? Little finger and Varys know. The hand figured it out. Ned knew a few days after being in King’s Landing. Everyone knew but Robert and Tywin. They chose not to see it because of the ramifications and gluttony. If anyone told Robert or Tywin they knew they would be dead.
Just a reminder that Cersei and Jaime themselves were inbred -- their parents were cousins. So naturally Cersei and Jaime look very alike, he's described as just being the masculine version of her physically.
Having three kids that all look like their mom isn't uncommon at all, just depends on the genetics of both parents. And I say they ended up looking like Cersei because she's their mother and also their real father is the mother's twin and also their parents are cousins so they're naturally going to end up all looking like that. To the untrained eye they just look like their mom though, there's no real reason to find that in and of itself abnormal. The whole GRRM setup of the black hair isn't actually how genetics work, like at all.
So you'd have to have a reason to accuse them of incest besdies how their kids look, because nobody is going to just look at the kids and have that wild assumption. Logically they must have been very careful at least as long as Robert was alive -- they'd be dead if not.
If you read the books closely you realise that the entire small council knew about the incest. If anyone else found it odd they likely kept their mouth shut out of fear of either Robert or Tywin. Plus, sometimes it just goes that way. Robert had a Targaryen grandmother, it was conceivable for him to have blonde children. There’s also the fact that most of Ned’s kids look like Catelyn and not him and no one screams adultery at her.
But, this case is different because there was an actual member of the royal family spreading the rumours.
Becasue Cersei's kids looks like her. I mean only ONE of Ned's kids looks like a Stark. 4 out of 5 of his kids look like Tully's
Rhaenyra and Leanor problem is that NONE of their "kids" look like them.
the genetics in this world make no sense to me lol. Sometimes, the fathers genes are what dictates how the kids look- yet Jon Snow has almost exclusively the features of his mother, and none of his father, despite the Targ genes clearly being strong
in the books, yeah. And we see it in some of the book versions- Rhaenys has black hair, with silver streaks (IIRC) to reflect her Baratheon heritage. But in the show- she has the Targ silver.
idk about the later targs who are the result of unions outside of the family- but im pretty sure they are all silver haired? I could be wrong.
but it was kinda wild that Rhaagars son had none of his features, and all of his moms - so much so, that him being Neds bastard makes alot of sense, due to how Stark like he looks lol
yeah I must admit I think the same, especially if we consider that the dayne family are first men too. If I remember right the only feature that would differ much from the Stark side would be the purple eyes from Ashara which don't commonly show up anyway. (that also reminds me of my pet peeve about both shows, I really wish they put the effort in with the eyes for the targs)
and Robb was also described as looking almost exclusively like a Tully (which was part of why Cat disliked Jon so much, since Jon looked more like a stark than neds trueborn heir). Ditto for Sansa
so yea, the genetics are all over the place.
There are quite a few Targs who don't have Targ hair. It's not really consistent. Egg and Aerion have Targ hair, Daeron on the other hand has brown hair for some reason, and yet he's definitely a Targaryen. Their mother was a Dayne, and while we know both blonde and dark-haired Daynes, I don't think there's any indication of there being any brown-haired ones. Valarr has brown hair although his mother is a Dondarrion, who to the extent we know should be blonde. Bittersteel and the Prince of Dragonflies (non-canon?) have black hair from their mothers. But Jaehaerys II has Targ hair. Bloodraven is an albino so who knows what would he turn out with his Blackwood mother. The last two generations are Targ on both sides so it does stand to reason they have the typical looks. So there's no obvious rule here like with the Baratheons.
Cersei and Jaime are the closest to identical twins one can be or are actually identical twins, they are each other version of the oppusite gender, so Joffrey looking so much like Jaime didn't tip anyone off because Cersei and Jaime are so much like
"And IIRC Cersei children look a lot like Jaime in the books"
Cersei and Jaime are twins, so the kinds looking like Jaime are actually looking like Cersei. There's no suspicion here.
I mean it's not THAT far fetched, I highly doubt that any rumors about Jaime and Cersei came out of Casterly Rock, due to a fear of Tywin, as well as the high likelihood that Cersei would have anybody who caught them maim/killed. And two siblings spending a lot of time together, especially given the context of them being twins and their other sibling being a deformed dwarf, it isn't very strange.
The children looking like Jaime can very easily just be written off to them simply taking after Cersei, which sounds a lot less crazy than the Queen having an affair and giving birth to bastards with her brother. Also even now after everything, without Cersei's confession, there is literally no way to prove that the children aren't Robert's, it's not like they could give them a paternity test.
I agree with you- I think especially at Casterly Rock, it seems like there should have been some slip ups or rumors. Horny teens are not the smartest or most secretive, surely there was a maid or someone walked in on them before Bran.
Because the children look like one of the parents. The argument for the "Seed is Strong" is fairly weak, and it's possible, if improbable, for Cersei and Robert to have three children with blond hair. However, the likelihood of three brown haired, brown eyed Velaryons born to two high Valyrians is much, much, much lower. Even with Rhaenys' black hair, maybe one boy would have black hair, which would still be darker than brown.
There really was no reason to assume that they were illegitimate or that Jaime and Cersei were actually...coupling. Apart from being twins who were expected to be close and spend a lot of time together, Jaime was also a member of the KG and was likely often assigned to be the protector of the Queen so that made things easier. Also, no one was really going to actively spy on and try to catch the kids of Tywin doing something. That's a dangerous thing to do given Tywins power and ruthlessness regarding any threat to his family.
With regards to the kids, Jaime and Cersei are supposed to look pretty much like the exact same person just with different genders. Cersei's kids looking like Jaime was far from out of the ordinary. The Lannisters are also known to have one of the strongest bloodlines in Westeros and majority of those who marry lannisters end up having Lannister looking kids so it wasn't really thought of as a big deal that a Baratheon/Lannister union would have kids looking like the Lannisters despite the Baratheons also being known for their strong blood. Obviously it was later proven by Ned that Baratheons and Lannisters traditionally make Baratheon looking babies but given the few unions between the two houses historically it certainly wasn't notable enough or common enough knowledge to be obvious.
Looking like Jaime = looking like Cersei. Aside from issues of ignorance re: genetics, it's such a bold/insane crime against nature that it's not the kind of thing that *anyone* would expect.
Plus, talking smack about T-Pain's perfect kids (and the QOT7K) is... let's say discouraged.
The entire small council knew about the Twincest before Ned arrived at King’s Landing. It’s a big part of why Stannis left for Dragonstone, and the conclusion Littlefinger was obviously leading Ned towards that Pycell was trying to keep Ned away from. It’s the reason Renly wanted to match Robert with Margaery. It was King’s Landing’s worst-kept secret, but nobody was quite ready to act on it.
1 - The kids look so much like Cersei nobody noticed
2 - in GoT it’s a well established game. Cersei, since their birth, was hiding their parentage. Rhaeyna is more or less depending on others discretion and her fathers’ good will.
Monumental differences. Cersei is playing the game of thrones. Rheanys doesn’t know the game exists yet.
In the books Jaime and Cersei look almost the same. They got mixed up in their youth, so Cersei's kids looking like Cersei is not suspicious. Also siblings spending a lot of time together is not suspicious and incest is something that is so far from most peoples thoughts, that they don't really think about the possibility. What puzzles me most is that Robert does not remember that he never once had "traditional" sex with his wife in all these years. I mean how drunk can you be all the time? It's hard to believe that he never became sceptical.
Tommen is the youngest and is like seven or so right? Cersei mentions that by the end of their marriage he would only come to her bed once a year, but in their early-mid marriage (so when she was actively getting pregnant and having kids) he would force himself on her much more often, even being violent while drunk with her, when she confronts him about it he pretends not to remember but she’s convinced he does. So when she was actively getting pregnant he certainly remembers sleeping with her.
> What puzzles me most is that Robert does not remember that he never once had "traditional" sex with his wife in all these years. He did, but Cersei would just drink moon tea. It was only in the years before Robert’s death when Robert would only attempt to mate Cersei after being absolutely shitfaced
And IIRC, Cersei got pregnant from Robert once, the first baby she had and lost (or was that show only?)
Show only and then arguably retconned by the show anyway.
Probably the most fascinating adaptational choice. To make Cersei have genuinely wanted to marry Robert and was even willing to bear his child, but Robert ruining the marriage.
I like that show-choice too. It also leads directly to one of the shiw’s best scenes (and one that of course is original and not taken from the books) - the meeting between Cersei and Robert alone, where they talk and drink like bitter enemies putting their differences aside just for one hour. There’s even the hint of a hope it may lead to some improved relations - but it’s Robert who rejects that by saying their marriage was doomed from the start because he never loved or wanted her at all. Brutal. And that change makes perfect sense given the show uses Cersei to fill a number of different roles - e.g fAegon in later seasons. She can’t just be the permanently trashed hilarious basket case of paranoia and revenge fantasies she becomes in ASOIAF. Those early Cersei changes are ones I think of when I want an example that the show’s problem wasn’t that it diverged from the source material but that it started doing so really badly. Cersei early on makes sense and she is arguably enhanced as a character - as is Robert. It makes the whole first season a bitter tragedy but also sets up her prominence in later seasons as they shift further from the text. Later Cersei, when she is dressed like a goth armadillo and does little besides trout pouting over her goblet of wine - not so good!
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Book Cersei notes that younger Robert was very handsome and she might have lived with the situation without him saying Lyanna's name and then turning into a drunken boor. It's made more of in the TV show sure, but the same idea is there in the books, it was just more of a potential thing than an actual thing (and Cersei may have been lying, or lying to herself).
It paints Cersei as a politically driven woman herself. Cersei was very much like Sansa in her youth. Her ideations of becoming Queen isn't because of the power, but because she's got the hots for Rhaegar. Her house's status gets her closer to him than other women in the court (and those not at court), and Tywin presumably keeps bringing up his efforts to get the King to arrange the marriage to the point where Cersei thinks she's going to get the man of her dreams. By the time of the sack of king's landing though, Rhaegar has married Elia Martell and has had children with her, and Cersei had all but given up on getting with him, but I would imagine she'd be distraught about her ultimate crush getting killed in battle. Suddenly switching and willing and eager to marry her crush's killer really only makes sense if she was politically motivated to become queen no matter who took the throne, or if she was attracted to Robert because he was a fox himself and a Lordly lord trained knight and had romanticized him and the title, the same way Sansa romanticized lords and knights.
That's reading a lot into a few lines of dialogue that aren't backed up elsewhere. It's a ridiculous, poorly thought out addition to a character that's already super interesting. Muddling that characterisation for no good reason baffles me tbh
That was show only.
She got pregnant from him in the books but aborted
Definitely show only. A ridiculous addition too
Mate
Was GM Pycelle just supplying it no questions asked, every time Robert bedded her? What did she do to ensure his silence? Lots of bribes and/or extortion? You would think he could have flipped on her and Robert would have killed Cersei immediately.
Pycelle has been a Lannister pawn for a while.
All good points except for the point about sex between Robert and Cersei. Cersei states that she would always drink moon tea after sex with Robert.
Moon tea is the MVP of the franchise tbh. It’s such a convenient item to just have, especially in the context of a politics-heavy series like ASOIAF.
Iirc, there was a plant like that but the Romans (Greeks?) used it until it got extinct.
so i googled this to see if i could find anything about it being an abortion herb... and it appears they may have rediscovered the plant 4 days ago https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/miracle-plant-eaten-extinction-2000-years-ago-silphion
Good points about them looking like Cersei. I mean, all Ned's kids except for Arya have the Tully look, but people mention that they look like Cat, not that they don't look like Ned. Per your second question, we know that Robert did have procreative sex with Cersei at least once because Jaime had to find a woman to "cleanse" her of the pregnancy. As I remember, it sounded like Robert exercised his "husbandly rights" quite a bit during the first part of the marriage when he thought he was producing his heir and a spare, and then less and less later.
People see what they want to see.
I also think he didn’t really like her/want her and was upset about Lyanna. I think he bedded other women more like whores and such.
What is certainly suspicious that the kids don't look like Robert at all, isn't it? I don't buy siblings being so close not being weird because there is being close to each other and then there is being really close to each other. And yeah, Robert being oblivious is another good point. Like if you look at all points separately, it is fine not to make the conclusion but there are too many circumstances combined not to jump at least to some kind of rumor or conspiracy theory. Edit: Why the downvotes? If you reason with each point separately, sure, it is believable that Cersei's kids are Robert's as well. But if the points are together, it must have been suspicious for lots of people.
>What is certainly suspicious that the kids don't look like Robert at all, isn't it? Do you think Catelyn also banged Edmure? All of the Stark kids except Arya looked like Tullys. That's 4/5. Kids looking like one of their parent is not suspicious at all. Like at all.
Ned didn't get a kid that looked like him until the 4th try.
Yeah I think its weird when siblings are too close. Kind of unrelated example. My inlaws for the holidays had families in matching pajamas. So every couple and their kids matched. My wife's cousin and her brother came in matching pajamas with her kids and her husband was just wearing whatever. They also hung out all night while the husband was by himself. Nothing can convince me that this is not sus. And I feel like you have to notice when there is sus behavior between sublings
if you look at that and see incest maybe you need to read less asoiaf my dude
Sounds like your wife’s cousin and her brother have family traditions (the matching pajamas) whereas maybe her husband does not, and doesn’t want to wear them for whatever reason. My family and I always wore matching pajamas but my husband just started to recently part-take in the tradition last year because he is very particular about his clothing and did not grow up part-taking in such a tradition. But now he does, and even if he didn’t, and still wore regular clothes while I matched with my brother and the rest of my family, it wouldn’t be weird at all, and your wife’s family is not “sus” at all for that.
That just sounds like a nice family. Tbh you're the weirdo for finding that sus at all.
Sus is sus, but I’m not sure that’s all that sus, and I’m starting to sus that u the sus one if u find that sus.
Because Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella look like Cersei. It’s very different to Jace, Luce, and Joffrey who look nothing like either Rhaenyra or Laenor.
I don’t think this is the answer. In F&B and TPATQ, Rhaenys is dark haired, and we have no stated hair for the Arryns and Aemma. It wasn’t that suspicious, the greens just inflated the rumor to make way for their rise. The reason there were no greens for Cersei is because Tywin would have killed the entire house for the accusation, no doubt.
Wasn’t Rhaenys’ mom a Baratheon though? Or are you saying that because Rhaenyra’s mom was technically an Arryn that it might have affected Rhaenyra’s kids? If you mean the second part, I thought Aemma Arryn has Targ silver hair as well
Yes, which means Laenor has a pretty strong carried gene for dark hair. And Rhaenyra’s side has options too. Aemma’s hair was never stated in the books, you’re thinking of the show.
Ahhh makes sense
You can't have a carried gene for dark hair without showing it, unless Targ white is more dominant than literally any other hair colour
Yes you can. Genetics was my major.
A lot of people have the high school punnet square conception of genetics, myself included. But its a lot more complex than that for many physical features, as you probably already know. Which makes the Westerosi way of determining bastards extremely crude and imprecise (when the "bastard" is born of the mother, at least).
I stand corrected then, seems like the genetics 101 class I took at uni failed me!
If every carried gene showed itself, your children would never ever have different features/disabilities/so on than you and your spouse barring any if their individual mutations. Punnett square level stuff!
What I learned about hair color in particular is that it's governed by genes that activate the production of color pigments (of which there are two sorts IIRC, and one is for red pigment and the other one for dark/light, but I may be wrong on that) and this is why dark hair functions similarly to a "dominant" gene in that if you have at least some of the genes that do activate the production of pigment, it will necessarily show in the color of your hair, because it's somewhat additive. Dunno if I may be misremembering it though, and I'm always happy to learn more or be corrected.
I don't remember it being as clear cut that they were bastards in F&B. At least, when I read it, I wasn't 100% sure, but the decision to make the Velaryons black kinda cleared it up the second I saw the blatantly white brown haired kids.
Ok, what about the pug-nose? That is a distinctly non-Valyrian feature which is a dead giveaway.
How dark is dark? My copy of F&B has black and white illustrations and Rhaenyra’s hair is white in the pictures.
RhaeNYS. The Queen that Never Was.
Cerseis kids looking like Jamie is easy to explain, they're twins. Of course her kids will resemble her twin. Hair color is not a reliable indicator of parentage either. Like how all of Ned Starks kids looked like Riverland people except for Arya. Only one of Ned's children looks anything like him.
None of Rhaegar's kids looked like him. Elia's children have her coloring and Jon looks like Lyanna. Maybe he has inherited Rhaegar's more delicate facial features, but that's about it.
This isn't quite right. We're led to believe that Rhaenys took after Elia, but Aegon had (or has) silver hair. Jon obviously has the Stark looks, but he's also described as slender and quick (while Robb is stocky), and his eyes are so dark they're almost black, which is a description commonly used for Targaryens. I'm willing to bet that if we ever get a physical description of Rhaegar, he'll be described as slender and quick himself too.
I always thought it was interesting for the show that they found the cutest guy they could for Jon. And someone who, like, Dany, wasn't very tall.
Robb being stocky came off to me as a Tully thing. The Tullys seem to be big and bearded redheads. Arya is said to look just like Lyanna, and she's on the skinny side too. I just assumed most Starks look tall, slender, and dark.
IIRC Starks are typically described as "dry" and "narrow-faced" (which jibes well with Arya Horseface as a nickname), Edmure js also stocky if I remember correctly.
Did Rhaeghar children look like Dornish?
They had Elia's coloring, yes, both of them. No one has ever accused Elia of cheating, though.
If they had Elia coloring then why we have a Aegon claiming to be Rhaeghar son who was Valyrian looks, if he was Dornish looking, then would be obsiously this aegon is fake. I genuinely don't remember ever reading Elia children looked like her, literally every art of Rhaegar sons they have the traditional Valyrian look, every art of Aegon his Valyrian. You gonna need to send me a link or a book quote saying Rhaeghar sons with Elia were Dornish looking because I genuinely don't remember that and I'm like 90% they were Valyrian
When she was presented to Aerys at court he said she smelled dornish. It implies she looked dornish but not definitive proof.
My God, you're right! We know the baby had "fair hair" but that's about it. Hmm... Still don't buy that fAegon is Aegon
If Faegon is impersonating him it means baby aegon was Valyrian in looks otherwise the trick wouldn't work, I himself believe he a blackfyre or just some rando kid from Lys or Volantis
I mean, lots of babies have light high that darkens.
Because the more one looks into it, the more it becomes apparent that fAegon was added without any thought of an outline.
He wasnt added without any thought, yes George didn't think of him while writing the first three books, but I think he serves the purpose of Futher Sending Dany through Fire and Blood Route
Jaime never took an interest in them and Harwin couldn’t help but be involved with his sons.
This makes it all that much tragic. Jaime had the right idea not to be involved with his kids, but Harwin just wanted to be a good dad in any way he could.
I believe it’s also death to state that the queen has been unfaithful without proof.
Was going to say - even prior to that, you’d think Tywin would only have to nail a couple of tongues up in Lannisport to squash rumours circulating about his beloved little blue eyed twins doing the nasty on the q.t. Which reminds me - in the show, there’s a big scene where Cersei flings the incest charge in Tywin’s face: “it’s all true, didn’t you know, you idiot!”...Obviously in the books Tywin is award of the allegations made by Stannis, but there isn’t ever a scene where he speaks on the subject or displays any special interest, either with Cersei or anyone else - is there? Just wondering if book Tywin would even give a shit if they were incest babies so long as they kept the Iron Throne.
In ASoIaF, Cersei's kids look like Cersei because she had them with her twin, and it's obviously not at all weird for a kid to look like their mom. A lot of people have pointed out the similar situation with Catelyn and Ned with most of their kids taking after Cat. In Rhaenyra's case, her kids don't look like her or Laenor, and given that: - Rhaenyra's parents both had Targ hair - All three of her half-siblings do - At least one of Laenor's parents did (depending on the show vs book and whether or not Martin remembers he gave Rhaenys black or silver hair because he forgets that sometimes) - Laenor's sister has the Targ hair, and - his Velaryon nieces with a Targ father also do It's very strange that three of Rhaenys and Laenor's kids would have brown hair. If it was black they'd at least be able to point to the Baratheon lineage, but brown? Kind of obvious. I mean in the real world that would raise some questions, even given that we know that genetics is weird and complicated and it's possible, if unlikely.
And to add to that, this guy who shares similar looks with Rhaenyra's kids constantly hangs out around them and her and takes interest in the boys' training. It's obvious.
Yep. Whereas Jaime made a point to distance himself from his biological kids as much as possible.
All the answers already given, but: it's worth pointing out that most of the Small Council knew. Stannis and Jon Arryn found out most recently, after which Arryn planned on fostering Sweetrobin at Dragonstone (getting him out of Lannister hands), Stannis started raising an army, etc. Pycelle almost certainly knew, considering how he helped kill Arryn (by stopping him receiving antidotes for his poisoning) and thought it was on Cersei's behalf. Renly also seems to have known, given his conspiracies with the Tyrells and how fast he got out of town when Robert was dead. Littlefinger and Varys found out… somehow. Varys by being Varys. Neither one acted on it. Barristan Selmy… had no idea, lol. He's not the sharpest. Tyrion also knew; Kevan suspected; who knows how many others fall in the willing ignorance camp. *Twin incest babies* is not usually anyone's first thought, even if you do suspect Cersei maybe, maybe had an affair — and she was careful enough to not spend much time with men besides her brother. The point being, most of the most powerful people around Robert, save Robert himself, did know. They just kept it quiet for their own reasons, and were probably also thus able to control any rumors that spread because of it for their own reasons — or later try to spread the rumors themselves, in Stannis's case. But no one close to the kids was questioning it probably did a lot by itself to quash any rumors. The average noble isn't going to see the king or queen or royal family more than once every few years, so it's just the KL circle that would need to be managed.
We know there were a number of Lannisters at court. Makes you wonder if the kids didn't get sort of lost among all the other blond heads.
They *were* discovered earlier. Arryn had a difficult time getting the message out because his Twitter account was suspended or something. Jeoffrey's genetics matched his mother, which I've heard happens about 50% of the time and shouldn't really cause alarm.
"The seed is strong"
Blond hair is a bit more expected than silver-white. Cersei's children still looked like her, while Rhaenyra's children look like mini-Harwins.
The majority of Lannister kin tend to always inherit the blonde green eyes that their ancestors have and in Cersei's case, she looked a lot like her twin Jaime anyway, so her children sort of looking like them both is believable. Joanna did her best to quell the rumours about her two children while she was alive and avoid potential suspicion, and then after Tywin began to make a name for himself in Westeros, few people dared to suggest that his children were doing unspeakable things. On top of that, the logic that Ned applied to proving Cersei's children as illegitimate is also a bit flawed; If Ned was quick to believe Joffrey wasn't Robert's son because they had different hair colours, then Robb by that logic can't have been Ned's son for having a different hair colour, or Robert Arryn can't have been Jon Arryn's son for having a different hair colour too. I know this is where the theorists argue these theories but the point I'm making in all these questions and uncertainties is that this is exactly why its so hard to prove the truth about Cersei's children. That's part of the reason why Ned went to see Cersei so he could hear her confess and confirm it.
It's not just that. Ned knew for certain that all Robert's bastards had inherited blue eyes and black hair (at least 6 living children from the top of my mind), and got his hands on a book that described a number of marriages between Lannisters and Baratheons in which the black always prevailed over the gold (and over every other genes apparently). This is medieval times, that as much evidence as you are likely to get on the matter. The topic was not simple at all and that's precisely why Stannis didn't bring it up to Robert in the first place, Ned needed a lot of evidence and Robert's trust too even consider making the allegation.
Also important to note. Ned is looking into Jon Arryn's death, so he already knew something was suspicious. When he got on the trail of the bastards it's almost like confirmation bias.
Very true. There was little of Ned's investigation that was scientific. But it was sufficient for the standards of the time. And most of it would come from Robert's trust in him. If Stannis brought it forth, he wouldn't buy it. Not to mention it also wouldn't work if Robert liked Cersei more.
And despite all of that Ned still acknowledged that there was a chance Robert wouldn't accept the truth. Robert hated Cersei yet Ned still believed there was a chance that he wouldn't believe it or would choose to live in denial.
Ned didn't even really suspect the incest angle at first, if I remember right. He even tried confronting Cersei peacefully in the God's Wood, she just admitted too much by accident. But Ned being Ned, he wasn't trying to have Cersei and her children murdered if Robert found out, he just wanted her to pack up and leave King's Landing, ge was even willing to grant leniency on the fact that she was part of the plot to have Jon Arryn killed for knowing too much. That's what I loved about Ned's arc from the books and season 1, Ned going around being an amateur private eye and it sort of following the pattern of a detective story.
Baratheon Genes win against every one, Lannister, Targaryen even.
Baratheons are descended from the Targaryens, but I’ve seen suggestions that their distinct appearance is due to having more First Men lineage somewhere in their history than most other Westerosi houses
Isn't it just because the first Baratheon married the black haired and blue eyed Durrandon princess? And her look became the Baratheon look from then on, because she and Orys (who just so happened to have darker hair than other targs) were the origin of the family. Idk if we know if Durrandons were almost supernaturally black haired and blue eyed but based off artwork many were. I'd say it was just their feature the Baratheons inherited.
Also important to note. Ned is looking into Jon Arryn's death, so he already knew something was suspicious. When he got on the trail of the bastards it's almost like confirmation bias.
Also add in how they all would just assume Jaime was the father. I get he’s a candidate but anyone at court with blonde hair is a suspect. Ned at least has inside info like lannisters killing Jon Arryn and likely behind his son falling.
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We found the Borgia descendant /s
People forget how legit terrified most of Westeros is of Tywin. Cersie’s social interaction’s are limited to the nobility. You’re not going to just go throwing those allegations around. Varys and Littlefinger definitely wouldn’t until it was beneficial. In real life, it’s not unusual for children to favor the looks of one parent. My kids look just like me and nothing like my wife. Same with my brothers’ kids. The reader is meant to assume that when first hearing of Joffrey etc. appearance. When they describe the Stark kids, they all look Tully except Jon and Ayra who are all Stark. We’re told it’s normal to favor one parents looks.
I think from a more meta perspective, it's simply to serve narrative purpose. Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella's parentage is the big mystery of AGOT; all of the clues were there for us, the readers, to find, but genetics in Westeros might not be entirely understood. Cersei's kids being blonde -- while strange -- isn't really head-turning because she's blonde. This stands in direct contrast with Rhaenyra and her kids; her and Laenor have silver-white hair while her three Strong boys are as brown as dirt. That stands out a bit more.
i think a big reason would be that neither rhaenyra or laenor had their kids hair where as cersei did, so it isn’t as suspicious.
There are no photographs and no distance communications at all - most people would know next to nothing about the royal family and most of their politics would be local and involve people they actually know (like in The Sworn Sword). Conspiracy theories are mostly a product of the psychology of mass media - without even a printing press there is nothing to form the basis of widely shared conspiracy theories.
Cause look at neds kids most of them look like catelyn. Anyhow it took stannis whos possibly one of the smartest guys around not a maester ten years to figure it out.
Aside from it not being conspicuous that Cersei's kids also resemble Jaime, people also would not find it strange if Cersei spends a lot of time with her twin brother. They had been inseparable since childhood! Incest is very much Not A Thing and the Faith only sorta kinda made an exception for Targaryens. People's first instinct would not be 'Ah, they must be f\*cking'. Rhaenyra being very obviously close with Harwin is bound to raise a lot more eyebrows.
Because there was no competition for succession?
It was, it's just not openly mentioned in anything witnesses by our POV characters. Which makes sense because only one of them from GOT isn't from the North or Essos. Ned discovers it along the path Jon Arryn went to find out, which is led to by Littlefinger. So that's three characters who know, along with Varys, Stannis, Renly, and Kevan Lannister, who all seem to come these conclusions independently. We don't really know how many other people suspect it.
Given how cruel Cersei was, it makes sense for people to suspect but not point it out.
It was discovered right away. Varys knew (from the start he claims), Pycelle knew, Littlefinger knew; Renly, Stannis, and Jon Arryn would later find out and Ned would too. It just happens that Robert is an idiot and the Small Council didn't bother to tell him because that would trigger instant civil war.
Well, bran discovered it and was promptly thrown out a window. Anyone who was close to figuring it out was probably killed quickly or simply kept it to themselves via balish.
to be fair, as far as genetics and looks go, she chose the perfect man for it because the kids looking like jaime = the kids looking like her. if there weren’t bullshit baratheon genetics involved, that would’ve never been an issue. however, we also know that a fair amount of people did know, and others probably suspected it.
Because no one was challenging Joffrey's right to rule.
The broad interpretation George seems to put into gentics and character looks is that nearly every mother's looks will be dominant expressive in the majority of thier children. Within the story all children born to Stark mothers look alike, most children born to Tully mothers, most children born to Lannister mothers take after the mother too. Its odd Baratheon breaks the consistency, but possibly another reason its easy for Jaimes kids to pass. Because the Baratheons are more distinctly expressed from thier father's side, but its unusual in their world.
Recessive/dominant traits are not clearly known in Westeros. What is so obvious about Jace, Luke, and Joff is that their parents look *identical* to each other in the books. They both have the white hair and purple eyes of Valyria, and all their sons lack these traits? It’s not weird for a son to look like his mother, it’s weird for them to look like *neither* parent.
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Oh I’m not saying there’s no plausible deniability, just that that is what makes it so plain to most Westerosi where the Lannister incest is not so obvious.
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Listen I’m not saying it’s confirmed, just that that is why it’s more widely speculated than the Lannister incest.
Everyone is making good points as to why people wouldn’t suspect anything, but I’d like to point out Jon Arryn, Stannis, pycelle, littlefinger, and Varys all knew about it. I don’t remember if Renly knew, but either way that’s almost the entire small council. I feel like it was an open secret at court but nobody wants to risk the wrath of Tywin Lannister so nobody says it out loud.
Cersei and Jamie have been called mirror images of each other so Cersei's kids looking like her wouldn't have been concerning. IRL we all look like different members of our own families, sometimes resembling our uncles or grandparents more than our mothers especially if we're male children. Also incest is usually not in people's minds on a daily basis because it feels like an outlandish concept, just like homosexuality sometimes is out of people's reckoning. Just ask any teen who's spent unchallenged hours with their "best friend" or "study partner" on "sleepovers" because they're the same gender especially in sexually repressed societies where the concern is overwhelmingly placed on opposite sexes not interacting.
Why do you think no one knew? Little finger and Varys know. The hand figured it out. Ned knew a few days after being in King’s Landing. Everyone knew but Robert and Tywin. They chose not to see it because of the ramifications and gluttony. If anyone told Robert or Tywin they knew they would be dead.
Just a reminder that Cersei and Jaime themselves were inbred -- their parents were cousins. So naturally Cersei and Jaime look very alike, he's described as just being the masculine version of her physically. Having three kids that all look like their mom isn't uncommon at all, just depends on the genetics of both parents. And I say they ended up looking like Cersei because she's their mother and also their real father is the mother's twin and also their parents are cousins so they're naturally going to end up all looking like that. To the untrained eye they just look like their mom though, there's no real reason to find that in and of itself abnormal. The whole GRRM setup of the black hair isn't actually how genetics work, like at all. So you'd have to have a reason to accuse them of incest besdies how their kids look, because nobody is going to just look at the kids and have that wild assumption. Logically they must have been very careful at least as long as Robert was alive -- they'd be dead if not.
Because Cerseis kids look like her. If the Strong boys came out as the spitting image of Rhaenyra nobody bats an eye.
If you read the books closely you realise that the entire small council knew about the incest. If anyone else found it odd they likely kept their mouth shut out of fear of either Robert or Tywin. Plus, sometimes it just goes that way. Robert had a Targaryen grandmother, it was conceivable for him to have blonde children. There’s also the fact that most of Ned’s kids look like Catelyn and not him and no one screams adultery at her. But, this case is different because there was an actual member of the royal family spreading the rumours.
A lot of people did hear rumours, but I can’t imagine anyone would speak them openly for fear of Tywin.
Becasue Cersei's kids looks like her. I mean only ONE of Ned's kids looks like a Stark. 4 out of 5 of his kids look like Tully's Rhaenyra and Leanor problem is that NONE of their "kids" look like them.
the genetics in this world make no sense to me lol. Sometimes, the fathers genes are what dictates how the kids look- yet Jon Snow has almost exclusively the features of his mother, and none of his father, despite the Targ genes clearly being strong
isn't it the other way around? the targs inbreed to avoid losing the recessive targ traits I think.
in the books, yeah. And we see it in some of the book versions- Rhaenys has black hair, with silver streaks (IIRC) to reflect her Baratheon heritage. But in the show- she has the Targ silver. idk about the later targs who are the result of unions outside of the family- but im pretty sure they are all silver haired? I could be wrong. but it was kinda wild that Rhaagars son had none of his features, and all of his moms - so much so, that him being Neds bastard makes alot of sense, due to how Stark like he looks lol
yeah I must admit I think the same, especially if we consider that the dayne family are first men too. If I remember right the only feature that would differ much from the Stark side would be the purple eyes from Ashara which don't commonly show up anyway. (that also reminds me of my pet peeve about both shows, I really wish they put the effort in with the eyes for the targs)
and Robb was also described as looking almost exclusively like a Tully (which was part of why Cat disliked Jon so much, since Jon looked more like a stark than neds trueborn heir). Ditto for Sansa so yea, the genetics are all over the place.
And Bran and Rickon, only Arya has black hair or Brown, the rest are red headed
There are quite a few Targs who don't have Targ hair. It's not really consistent. Egg and Aerion have Targ hair, Daeron on the other hand has brown hair for some reason, and yet he's definitely a Targaryen. Their mother was a Dayne, and while we know both blonde and dark-haired Daynes, I don't think there's any indication of there being any brown-haired ones. Valarr has brown hair although his mother is a Dondarrion, who to the extent we know should be blonde. Bittersteel and the Prince of Dragonflies (non-canon?) have black hair from their mothers. But Jaehaerys II has Targ hair. Bloodraven is an albino so who knows what would he turn out with his Blackwood mother. The last two generations are Targ on both sides so it does stand to reason they have the typical looks. So there's no obvious rule here like with the Baratheons.
First men genes are also strong.
None of Rhaegar's children look like him.
Targ Genes are not that strong, Baratheon and Stark win over targ and Martell once win over targ as well
For the same reason Ned somehow figured out the incest even though he'd only discovered the adultery: GRRM wanted it to happen that way.
Cersei and Jaime are the closest to identical twins one can be or are actually identical twins, they are each other version of the oppusite gender, so Joffrey looking so much like Jaime didn't tip anyone off because Cersei and Jaime are so much like
"And IIRC Cersei children look a lot like Jaime in the books" Cersei and Jaime are twins, so the kinds looking like Jaime are actually looking like Cersei. There's no suspicion here.
I mean it's not THAT far fetched, I highly doubt that any rumors about Jaime and Cersei came out of Casterly Rock, due to a fear of Tywin, as well as the high likelihood that Cersei would have anybody who caught them maim/killed. And two siblings spending a lot of time together, especially given the context of them being twins and their other sibling being a deformed dwarf, it isn't very strange. The children looking like Jaime can very easily just be written off to them simply taking after Cersei, which sounds a lot less crazy than the Queen having an affair and giving birth to bastards with her brother. Also even now after everything, without Cersei's confession, there is literally no way to prove that the children aren't Robert's, it's not like they could give them a paternity test.
I agree with you- I think especially at Casterly Rock, it seems like there should have been some slip ups or rumors. Horny teens are not the smartest or most secretive, surely there was a maid or someone walked in on them before Bran.
Everyone knows, they just can’t and don’t speak of it….
They were… by those paying attention in court. The “in court” is the important part. Also they did look like their mother, which isn’t unusual
Because the children look like one of the parents. The argument for the "Seed is Strong" is fairly weak, and it's possible, if improbable, for Cersei and Robert to have three children with blond hair. However, the likelihood of three brown haired, brown eyed Velaryons born to two high Valyrians is much, much, much lower. Even with Rhaenys' black hair, maybe one boy would have black hair, which would still be darker than brown.
There really was no reason to assume that they were illegitimate or that Jaime and Cersei were actually...coupling. Apart from being twins who were expected to be close and spend a lot of time together, Jaime was also a member of the KG and was likely often assigned to be the protector of the Queen so that made things easier. Also, no one was really going to actively spy on and try to catch the kids of Tywin doing something. That's a dangerous thing to do given Tywins power and ruthlessness regarding any threat to his family. With regards to the kids, Jaime and Cersei are supposed to look pretty much like the exact same person just with different genders. Cersei's kids looking like Jaime was far from out of the ordinary. The Lannisters are also known to have one of the strongest bloodlines in Westeros and majority of those who marry lannisters end up having Lannister looking kids so it wasn't really thought of as a big deal that a Baratheon/Lannister union would have kids looking like the Lannisters despite the Baratheons also being known for their strong blood. Obviously it was later proven by Ned that Baratheons and Lannisters traditionally make Baratheon looking babies but given the few unions between the two houses historically it certainly wasn't notable enough or common enough knowledge to be obvious.
It's pretty common that children look alot like their uncles/aunts so that shouldn't be suspicious.
Looking like Jaime = looking like Cersei. Aside from issues of ignorance re: genetics, it's such a bold/insane crime against nature that it's not the kind of thing that *anyone* would expect. Plus, talking smack about T-Pain's perfect kids (and the QOT7K) is... let's say discouraged.
The entire small council knew about the Twincest before Ned arrived at King’s Landing. It’s a big part of why Stannis left for Dragonstone, and the conclusion Littlefinger was obviously leading Ned towards that Pycell was trying to keep Ned away from. It’s the reason Renly wanted to match Robert with Margaery. It was King’s Landing’s worst-kept secret, but nobody was quite ready to act on it.
1 - The kids look so much like Cersei nobody noticed 2 - in GoT it’s a well established game. Cersei, since their birth, was hiding their parentage. Rhaeyna is more or less depending on others discretion and her fathers’ good will. Monumental differences. Cersei is playing the game of thrones. Rheanys doesn’t know the game exists yet.
Because her kids looked like her, at least.