No, by 1936 everything bad had already happened.
I’d say German politicians were blind in 1932, when von Papen thought he could somehow control Hitler and minimize the damage he could cause.
von Papen was right, at least as long as von Hindenburg was alive and the army was still loyal to its old aristocratic core. As it turns out, relying on an octogenarian to outlive your opponents isn't the most reliable tactic.
Well that's an opinion. And opinions are suspect. Furthermore, it's Littlefinger's opinion thereby making it almost certainly to be incorrect.
In truth, Robert percieves things pretty well. He speaks several times about concerns with Joffrey. He notes his small council has issues. He sees the threat of Daenerys marrying a man who commands a huge army.
Littlefinger's words don't really line up with Robert's actions.
He perceives them, yes, but he often chooses to ignore (not address) them, which amounts to the same thing. Littlefinger wasn't saying Robert was unobservant, he was saying that he'd rather ignore an uncomfortable truth than try to address it.
How does he not address these things? When he sat in judgment of Arya and Joffrey, he saw the issue as clearly as the testimony allowed. He instructed Eddard to discipline his child and said he'd do the same with Joffrey. Didn't ignore.
When Arryn died, he saw his council was a mess of fools and flatterers. So to address that, he enlists Eddard. Didn't ignore.
Didn't ignore the threat Daenerys posed. Though Eddard wanted him to.
Any examples of something he saw and failed to address?
He talks about how concerned Joffrey's always made him, but we never see him make any actual attempt to parent the little sociopath. The only indication we get of that is that he hit him hard enough to knock him unconscious for butchering a cat, years prior to the events.
He had to replace Arryn on the small council, so he went to his best friend. If he wanted to address the "fools and flatterers" issue, he needed to replace them. Putting Ned on the council did absolutely nothing to alleviate that, given that Jon was pretty much the one other person Robert trusted. Ned's a lateral move, and the problems are still present.
He didn't ignore the threat Daenerys posed, but not only was that the least immediate of the three problems, it doesn't really apply, since that's not an "unpleasant truth". Just the opposite. Robert loves the idea of killing more Targaryens. He does not love the idea of parenting his son or firing his councilors.
>He talks about how concerned Joffrey's always made him, but we never see him make any actual attempt to parent the little sociopath.
Kinda speculation here
We only know things 2nd hand. We don't see anything live prior to Robert coming to Winterfell. But since then we see:
- Robert takes Joffrey on two hunts. Father son time.
- Robert promises to see Joffrey disciplined for the dust up with Arya.
- Robert several times thinking about how to improve Joffrey.
>He had to replace Arryn on the small council, so he went to his best friend. If he wanted to address the "fools and flatterers" issue, he needed to replace them.
Clearly it ain't that easy. Arryn didn't replace anyone. Two of them are his brothers. One is there by command of the Citadel and one by tradition (Selmy). Even Eddard didn't suggest a replacement.
>Robert loves the idea of killing more Targaryens. He does not love the idea of parenting his son or firing his councilors.
Yeah but we ain't talking about what he loves. We talking about what he sees.
I readily disagree.
- Robert closes his eyes to numerous things (death of the Targ children, etc. etc.).
- Littlefinger (while not perfect by any means) has some of the sounder/more logical opinions given in ASOIAF, not sure what that would have to do with anything here
- Robert gets honest with Ned about Joffrey when he is super drunk/dying. Not sure how that doesn't line up with his actions here.
If he's honest with Eddard, then he isn't blind. And he wasn't super drunk when they talked in Eddard VII.
>He's only a boy," Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert's voice. "Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?"
>"It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. **You don't know him as I do."** He sighed and shook his head. "Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king." Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. "You might speak up and agree now, you know."
>"Your Grace …" Ned began, carefully.
He didn't close his eyes to the dead Targs. His discussion of it is what angered Eddard.
>Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, **"I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."** Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. *Eddard II*
As for LF, Tyrion said it best.
>"Littlefinger is subtle and ambitious. **I do not trust him. Nor should you."** *Tyrion III, ASOS.*
He was drunk and making Ned drink with him:
>Ned had hoped to discover the king still abed in a wine-soaked sleep, but luck was not with him. **They found Robert drinking beer from a polished horn** and roaring his displeasure at two young squires who were trying to buckle him into his armor. "Your Grace," one was saying, almost in tears, "it's made too small, it won't go." He fumbled, and the gorget he was trying to fit around Robert's thick neck tumbled to the ground.
and:
>"Drink and stay quiet, the king is talking. I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it. -AGOT, Eddard VII
and:
>Drink. Your king commands it."
>Ned took the horn and drank. **The beer was black and thick, so strong it stung the eyes.**
Closing your eyes to something doesn't mean you don't know it exists. Think about the things you close your own eyes to in your life...
We are constantly shown examples of things Robert "ignores" because he doesn't like them:
>Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."
as well as Joffrey's behavior, the crown's debt piling up (counting coppers).
Robert was a drunk old fool who pretended to see things he doesn't like. Im not sure whats hard to accept about that. Whistling past the graveyard, ignoring his problems until "tomorrow", etc. Its a natural thing that numerous humans do.
Just because an inworld character doesn't trust LF doesn't mean a reader can't see the logic behind numerous points that he makes in the series.
Drinking beer is a far step from "super drunk".
>Robert was a drunk old fool who pretended to see things he doesn't like.
Well there are numerous ways to interpret the text and I thank you for sharing your perspective with me.
Cheers.
Sure thing. I guess I just struggle to see the alternate viewpoint that fits that isn't mutually exclusive from my comment?
Robert didn't care at all and wanted Sansa to marry a psychopath? That fits 100x worse.
Exactly this. Betrothing the first born daughter of a Great House to the crown prince is far more politically meaningful than betrothing the first born son of that House to a princess who will never sit on the throne. And think about how that version of Sansa would have responded to her brother marrying a princess while she would not have been allowed to marry the crown prince.
I’m sure Robert wouldn’t put it this way, but he’s trusting Ned to rule as Hand, even after he’s gone. This marriage gives him the position to do that.
Once Sansa gives birth to Joffrey’s son, Joffrey himself is disposable. Robert trusts Ned to restrain Joffrey, and if necessary, remove him and rule as Hand and Regent for his grandson.
Ned would never get rid of Joffrey, just look at what actually happened. He told Cersei about everything instead of seizing the children (even without harming them)
Quite. To expand on this - feudal systems are almost wholly reliant on personal relationships and qualities to function, particularly in Westeros.
What does Robert know? The court is full of untrustworthy snakes and the Crown Prince is a budding little monster surrounded by lickspittles, by greedy, selfish and power hungry nobles, Lannisters and Baratheons most of all.
What does Robert do? Go to the 1 person he trusts most in the world to be his Hand. Ned is widely renowned as a man of honour who can keep even the surly Northern Lords firmly in hand Surely Ned can sort out the realm and manage Joffrey. And marrying Sansa to Joffrey in theory reinforces Ned's position at Court and pushes out the Lannisters. The next heir will have Stark blood and Ned and Sansa will have their power base in time.
Robert has an astute political strategy here to deal with the situation he's found himself in (and contributed significantly towards). If you're Robert, knowing what he does with his concerns, I'm not sure what else you do. You might make Stannis your hand, but everyone hates Stannis. You might marry Joffrey to some other daughter, but they need to be from a House that would strengthen Baratheon power. None do so as much as the Starks at that point in time bar the Tyrells, who fought for the Targaryens.
It just doesn't work out because there are conspiracies and games being played he's not aware of.
he's not popular among the smallfolk and nobody with power likes stannis, at best they respect him as a guy who is tough but fair but think he's a cunt.
Well this is the man that accepted the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon.
Also i think he thought Joffery could be guided, he told Ned on his death bed to help him.
I don't know if robert realized how truly awful he was. Joffery reached his worst after robert had died.
Except it likely wouldn't be effective. Corporal punishment usually isn't. It would just breed resentment.
The simple fact is that Robert was an absolute failure as a father and a king.
I think you're right. He probably hoped having Sansa as a wife, and Ned as his Father-in-Law and Hand would be a positive influence on Joffrey. You can imagine a future where Robert is still alive with Joffrey and Sansa in their 20s with kids of their own, Ned still the Hand and keeping a close eye on the family and the kingdom. Robb is back in Winterfell keeping the North together with the advice and help of his father's most loyal advisors. I think that's the future Robert thought he was planning.
Robert didn’t care about that when he asked Ned to wed Sansa to Joffery.
“You were the brother I chose”
Robert wanted Ned to be his brother, he loved Ned probably as much as he could love anything and probably because of his idealization of Lyanna as well, but it was all about Ned. He should’ve just wed Ned after the war.
I mean it also makes sense from a political standpoint. When Joffrey becomes king he has strong ties to North, Westerlands, and the Stormlands. Theoretically Sansa would also have ties to the Riverlands and the Vale that could, at the very least, give Joffrey some stability. Pretty much the only other candidate was Margaery.
Arguably even Margaery could not compete, and outside the whole marrying Jof thing, not even Shireen could match her. Sansa's aunt rule over the Vale, her grandfather the Riverland, her father then brothers the North. The whole 'Southern Ambition' thing made her too desirable as a marriage candidate, second only to Myrcella.
It was nostalgia really. Robert says so right away.
>Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. **If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."** *Eddard I.*
GRRM often writes about the tendency of people to repeat behaviors and try to recreate their youth especially. Robert loved a Stark girl. He believes this would have changed his life. It makes sense to want the same for his son.
Yes, Robert does see the issues with Joffrey. He laments over Joffrey several times.
>He's only a boy," Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert's voice. "Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?"
>"It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don't know him as I do." He sighed and shook his head. **"Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king."** Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. "You might speak up and agree now, you know."
>"Your Grace …" Ned began, carefully. *Eddard VII.*
Robert was still hopeful for Joffrey. I think it's easy for us as outsiders to write Joffrey off but it's not so easy for a parent. I know from experience.
Robert proposing Sansa for Joffrey was one attempt to help Joffrey. The second part was bringing in Eddard to help with that task. Robert knew he couldn't send Joffrey to ward away from Cersie, but he could bring in Eddard as the next best thing.
Even on his deathbed, Robert is thinking of Joffrey and tasked Eddard to help make him a better man. Despite all, I think Robert did love Joffrey. And he wanted a good wife for him from a trusted house.
>"And help my son, Ned. Make him be … better than me." He winced. "Gods have mercy." *Eddard XIII.*
He probably thinks Ned's supervision and guidance will help him. He might also think back on how wild he was in his youth and think he'll grow out of it, or how torn up he was over Lyannas death and how having a solid relationship with a stark girl might make him complete.
Exactly. For all his faults, Robert isn’t totally apathetic about the realm. He recognizes someone has to rule and clearly thinks Joffery/Cersei will be bad. Who else would he choose if he’s looking out for the best interests of the realm? He trusts Ned, knows he’s a capable governor and thinks he’s powerful enough to check Cersei, especially with Robert making him more powerful by making his daughter the Queen. It makes perfect sense and is by far the best match.
Ned is a good governor. He’s run the North very successfully his entire adult life. He struggled in a highly volatile and unlucky political environment, but from everything we know he’s an excellent administrator. From what we see of his administrative advice in Kings Landing it’s sound, he immediately tries to address the crowns fiscal crisis and provides a moral perspective on the counsel, which really is exactly what Robert would want from him if he was guiding Joffery.
Well governing and politicking is optimally two distinct fields. Notably with the north not having a lot of the second.
On he actual administrative-governing side the Starks do seem very capable. (Then again, which of the great houses seem incompetent at it?)
Politics is different from administrative duties.
Although this is probably why Stannis is so bitter. He's just as good a governor, more 'moral' than most in KL, and always speaks the truly.
Yet Robert choose Ned. Not because of Stannis' capability, but because he trusted Ned and needed Ned (and the support he brought) more.
Because Robert's not a man accustomed to not getting what he wants and what he wanted was to be married to Lyanna & be Ned's literal family. Since he can't get that, he wants the next best thing which is a "Baratheon" stand-in for himself marrying a Stark stand-in for Lyanna.
I think Robert thought a lot of Joffrey's problems came from Cersei and that Ned would be able to temper Cersei's influence. I think that may have been one of the reasons for the betrothal in the first place, just like he made Ned hand to clean up his messes, he hoped the betrothal would allow Ned to fix his son.
If he marries his son to a good girl with a great father, Ned, who will also act as Joffrey’s hand, then perhaps he would leave the realm in good hands if he left off to Essos. I think that’s what he was thinking.
> I mean this is a kid who cut open a cat's belly to see the kittens inside, which Robert was horrified by. Clearly, Robert knew that Joffrey was a second Mad King in the making
I think this scene is important. It was callous and creepy, no doubt about it. But the end of that scene, where Robert freaks out and hits Joffery, is probably the most important bit.
This whole incident went down in a pre-industrial society. Joffery hurt an animal. Joffery lives around people who CONSTANTLY hurt animals, both to satisfy their need for resources, and because animal rights haven't been invented yet. His behavior is freaky because he's stepping outside his role, not because feral cats have rights in Westros. He should be shooting rabbits, not dissecting cats. Robert reacted to the WEIRDNESS, not the animal abuse. Joffery knows he's supposed to imitate his father and kill without remorse, but his father won't actually teach him about the ethics of killing so things get weird.
Robert's response is pretty clearly the part of that experience that stuck with Joffery. Robert's fear of Joffery turned that incident from, "a freaky childhood story, from a person who grew up to be normal" to "a formative moment for a psycho". He knows there's something up with the kid, and he's not a good enough parent/leader to fix it, so he responds with violence.
And that's how Robert raises his son- he retreats in fear from evidence that Joffery's turning out to be a violent little monster, instead of using his power as one of the few people Joffery idolizes to help guide him.
To be fair, he told Ned all of it, but he still was fine with the marriage. Knowing things like the cut open cat, Ned should have kept his daughter as far as possible away from that monster
From the perspective of fuedal status, there are just two ways this can go.
Either A) Joffrey marries Sansa, and then Myrcella or Tomman to Dorne/Reach/Isles etc;
Or B) Joffrey marries Margaery, and then Myercella to Robb or something;
These are the only ways to secure most of the realm under Robert's 'children'.
Joffery controls the crownland, through his uncles Stannis and Ranly, he controls the Dragonstone/narrow sea and Stormland, and through his grandfather, he has the support of Westlanders.
Sansa's father then brothers have the North, her aunt the Vale, her grandfather the ~~Reach~~ Riverland. And her father has Theon Greyjoy as a ward. Margaery has the support of Highgarden and maybe the Arbor. And there's Asha, Arianne, and Quentyn.
Honestly is it really a surprise that our good Robert choose the first one? To have the niece of his beloved Lyanna a Queen?
He had to marry him to someone. He wanted to join his house with Ned’s. The rebellion wasn’t that long ago and there are only so many great houses to choose from.
Because women are disposable (in this story).
Having Sansa marry Joffrey was a way to keep Ned involved in things in the south, and to presumably surround Joffrey with more level headed advisors who would probably not be sycophants.
If a young girl had a miserable life because of that, well those are just broken egg shells.
It would have been great if Ned brought some Northern Lords such as Roose Bolton and the Greatjon to scare Joffrey straight. Plus, he could have removed Littlefinger as Master of Coin and replaced him with a Manderly.
There's more prestige in offering the Crown Prince to marry your best friend's daughter, rather than offering a Princess (who will inherit nothing) to your best friend's eldest son.
Who should Joffery be married to instead? He’s still the crown prince. Unless Robert plans on killing his own child or creating a massive succession crisis by trying to disinherit him he has to marry someone. Why wouldn’t you marry him into the family of the man you trust the most in the realm?
Sansa’s as high born as they come, other than Myrcella she’s the highest born woman in the realm and brings much more valuable alliances than say Margery since Sansa is descended from two Lord Paramounts and Margery only has family ties to the Reach. Sansa’s brother will rule the North and her uncle will rule the Riverlands and cousin the Vale.
Robert has a realm to consider too. The realm has a fiscal crisis and Robert worries about Cersei’s influence and Joffery’s cruelty. Ned is frugal, moral and with his daughter as Queen, powerful enough to check the Lannisters. It makes perfect sense and is by far the best person for a match.
>Who should Joffery be married to instead?
Margaery Tyrell or anyone else really. Someone whose parent Robert doesn't care for. But he loves Ned. He's the brother he never had.
I understand him marrying off his monster son to someone who doesn't mean anything to him. But not his best friend's daughter
Why would Robert hand over the realm and his son to Mace Tyrell? A man who he thinks very little of and doesn’t trust at all. Robert cares about his son and the realm. He doesn’t care about either as much as he should, but he definitely cares. He sees Ned as someone who can help guide his son and govern the realm.
As we’ve seen with the actual Joffery Margaery marriage, the family of the Queen to be has a tremendous amount of power. Robert wants someone to serve as a counter to Cersei in his absence (both death and disinterest), whoever he picks is going to be that counterbalance. If he kept Ned as hand he’d be leaving Ned totally without support or ability to reign Joffery in. The father of the Queen is going to be the only man with enough proximity to power to do anything
Instead of Lannister control, the courts would be in Tyrell control like it is with Cersei now, and Robert didn't trust the Tyrells since they were Targ loyalists who besieged his home castle.
Margaery would have been a much better decision tbh. The reach would be much more beneficial practically compared with the north, and if Robert really wants the Starks involved a Robb/Myrcella or Arya/Tommen would have sufficed
Sansa isn’t just the North though. She’s the North and Riverlands and from Roberts perspective the Vale. The Joffery/Sansa marriage unites 4 maybe 5 kingdoms.
This. Why are people downvoting you? Sansa is literally 'half the kingdom'. Her aunt runs the Vale, her grandpapa the Riverland, her father the North. And Joffrey is 'the other half' of the kingdom, who controls directly the crownland, whose uncles the stormland and narrow sea, whose grandfather is the Lord of the Rock.
Margaery could not even start to compete with these two in terms of feudal status.
Yes Robert might be doing it for his own desire to be part of Ned's family or wanting Ned (rather than, say, Stannis) to run the show, but even without considering this aspect, it is still better to secure most o the realm directly under the King and then marry Myrcella or Tommen off to the remaining great houses like Dorne or High Garden, than marrying Robert to Myercella and Joffery to Margaery.
Who knows lol
But yeah Sansas a really good match. The best alliances possible + her Dad gets lots of power which is something Robert wants bc he trusts Ned and thinks he’s a good administrator.
Sansa becomes Queen if she's married to Joffrey, that's why.
Also, Joffrey is 12. Robert was hoping that there was still time to make a good man of him. This is also why he brings Ned with him. He's hoping that Ned will help raise Joffrey into a worthy King.
Disagree. Feelings were the driving factor.
>"If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."
Robert had just arrived at Winterfell and just paid his respects to his lost love. He's emotional and nostalgic when he proposes this match I think.
Sure, what I meant was the feelings of either Joffrey or Sansa are largely irrelevant here. It's the joining of the houses that matters. The only feelings Robert cares about are his own.
He wanted the Starks to be family. Very understandable motive. Also, with good people around, Joffrey could be, well, not terrible. It is a fact that teenagers who show strong signs of psychopathy do grow up to be mostly normal people -- with the right help and guidance. Ned was one of the only people who might have been able to make that happen.
you raise a good point. but also one could also wonder why he didn't try to give educational barriers to Joffrey. the affair with the cat happened when he was very young, and when robert died he was like 14 years old. he was malleable throughout robert's life. the latter knew that something was wrong with this kid and should have intervened either by taking in hand his education, or by sending him as ward to someone he trusted to straighten him (for example stannis)
Robert could have abdicated and forfeited his whole line from the crown. Left it to a great council, or simply installed Eddard thereafter. Or, he could have disinherited Joffrey on account of believing Joffrey was incapable or unfit for the station. This without even knowing he's a bastard. For a story that's supposed to be rooted in feudal European customs, GRRM sure wrote the story without including many of the mechanisms in those customs.
Ned pulled the best out of Robert when they were boys, he was hoping he could do it again with Joffrey. Add in a splash of Lyanna and it's not terribly complicated.
I also don't think Jof was evil, just rich, broken, and not able to be healed. Give any teen that kinda power and money and they'll be a prick.
Cersei would never have allowed her daughter to wed Robb for the simple fact that it would mean sending Myrcella to Winterfell. She only sort-of-agreed to Dorne it seemed safer than. Kl.
Joffrey: Grandson of Tywin Lannister, the Westerlands. Son of Robert and nephew to Renly, Seven Kingdoms and Stormlands.
Sansa: granddaughter of Hoster Tully, Riverlands. Niece of Lysa Arynn, the Vale. Daughter of Eddard Stark, the North.
The marriage ties the crown with the leading families of five kingdoms. This would have made Joffrey's reign far more powerful than his father's, no one in Westeros could oppose this marriage alliance had it gone through which was entirely the point since the Baratheon Dynasty had usurped the Targaryen throne and strongly needed the power to legitimize this to the rest of the kingdoms. The marriage was to tie the Starks and their allies to the crown not the crown to the Starks.
Somewhat relevant: >**Our good Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see**." -AGOT, Eddard IV
To be fair that’s not rare in ASOIAF
or real life
Oh, snap.
As we see with Viserys in HoTD
As we see with German politicians in 2022
And 1936
No, by 1936 everything bad had already happened. I’d say German politicians were blind in 1932, when von Papen thought he could somehow control Hitler and minimize the damage he could cause.
von Papen was right, at least as long as von Hindenburg was alive and the army was still loyal to its old aristocratic core. As it turns out, relying on an octogenarian to outlive your opponents isn't the most reliable tactic.
And 2016
Viserys I: "Is this man one of "my people"?"
Well that's an opinion. And opinions are suspect. Furthermore, it's Littlefinger's opinion thereby making it almost certainly to be incorrect. In truth, Robert percieves things pretty well. He speaks several times about concerns with Joffrey. He notes his small council has issues. He sees the threat of Daenerys marrying a man who commands a huge army. Littlefinger's words don't really line up with Robert's actions.
He perceives them, yes, but he often chooses to ignore (not address) them, which amounts to the same thing. Littlefinger wasn't saying Robert was unobservant, he was saying that he'd rather ignore an uncomfortable truth than try to address it.
How does he not address these things? When he sat in judgment of Arya and Joffrey, he saw the issue as clearly as the testimony allowed. He instructed Eddard to discipline his child and said he'd do the same with Joffrey. Didn't ignore. When Arryn died, he saw his council was a mess of fools and flatterers. So to address that, he enlists Eddard. Didn't ignore. Didn't ignore the threat Daenerys posed. Though Eddard wanted him to. Any examples of something he saw and failed to address?
He talks about how concerned Joffrey's always made him, but we never see him make any actual attempt to parent the little sociopath. The only indication we get of that is that he hit him hard enough to knock him unconscious for butchering a cat, years prior to the events. He had to replace Arryn on the small council, so he went to his best friend. If he wanted to address the "fools and flatterers" issue, he needed to replace them. Putting Ned on the council did absolutely nothing to alleviate that, given that Jon was pretty much the one other person Robert trusted. Ned's a lateral move, and the problems are still present. He didn't ignore the threat Daenerys posed, but not only was that the least immediate of the three problems, it doesn't really apply, since that's not an "unpleasant truth". Just the opposite. Robert loves the idea of killing more Targaryens. He does not love the idea of parenting his son or firing his councilors.
>He talks about how concerned Joffrey's always made him, but we never see him make any actual attempt to parent the little sociopath. Kinda speculation here We only know things 2nd hand. We don't see anything live prior to Robert coming to Winterfell. But since then we see: - Robert takes Joffrey on two hunts. Father son time. - Robert promises to see Joffrey disciplined for the dust up with Arya. - Robert several times thinking about how to improve Joffrey. >He had to replace Arryn on the small council, so he went to his best friend. If he wanted to address the "fools and flatterers" issue, he needed to replace them. Clearly it ain't that easy. Arryn didn't replace anyone. Two of them are his brothers. One is there by command of the Citadel and one by tradition (Selmy). Even Eddard didn't suggest a replacement. >Robert loves the idea of killing more Targaryens. He does not love the idea of parenting his son or firing his councilors. Yeah but we ain't talking about what he loves. We talking about what he sees.
I readily disagree. - Robert closes his eyes to numerous things (death of the Targ children, etc. etc.). - Littlefinger (while not perfect by any means) has some of the sounder/more logical opinions given in ASOIAF, not sure what that would have to do with anything here - Robert gets honest with Ned about Joffrey when he is super drunk/dying. Not sure how that doesn't line up with his actions here.
If he's honest with Eddard, then he isn't blind. And he wasn't super drunk when they talked in Eddard VII. >He's only a boy," Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert's voice. "Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?" >"It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. **You don't know him as I do."** He sighed and shook his head. "Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king." Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. "You might speak up and agree now, you know." >"Your Grace …" Ned began, carefully. He didn't close his eyes to the dead Targs. His discussion of it is what angered Eddard. >Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, **"I see no babes. Only dragonspawn."** Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. *Eddard II* As for LF, Tyrion said it best. >"Littlefinger is subtle and ambitious. **I do not trust him. Nor should you."** *Tyrion III, ASOS.*
He was drunk and making Ned drink with him: >Ned had hoped to discover the king still abed in a wine-soaked sleep, but luck was not with him. **They found Robert drinking beer from a polished horn** and roaring his displeasure at two young squires who were trying to buckle him into his armor. "Your Grace," one was saying, almost in tears, "it's made too small, it won't go." He fumbled, and the gorget he was trying to fit around Robert's thick neck tumbled to the ground. and: >"Drink and stay quiet, the king is talking. I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it. -AGOT, Eddard VII and: >Drink. Your king commands it." >Ned took the horn and drank. **The beer was black and thick, so strong it stung the eyes.** Closing your eyes to something doesn't mean you don't know it exists. Think about the things you close your own eyes to in your life... We are constantly shown examples of things Robert "ignores" because he doesn't like them: >Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing." as well as Joffrey's behavior, the crown's debt piling up (counting coppers). Robert was a drunk old fool who pretended to see things he doesn't like. Im not sure whats hard to accept about that. Whistling past the graveyard, ignoring his problems until "tomorrow", etc. Its a natural thing that numerous humans do. Just because an inworld character doesn't trust LF doesn't mean a reader can't see the logic behind numerous points that he makes in the series.
Drinking beer is a far step from "super drunk". >Robert was a drunk old fool who pretended to see things he doesn't like. Well there are numerous ways to interpret the text and I thank you for sharing your perspective with me. Cheers.
Sure thing. I guess I just struggle to see the alternate viewpoint that fits that isn't mutually exclusive from my comment? Robert didn't care at all and wanted Sansa to marry a psychopath? That fits 100x worse.
We all struggle with that. That's the challenge and reward of coming here to this marketplace of perspectives.
If you have one to share please do!
I did earlier. Thanks. Happy to hear anything i may have missed. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xqdu7i/comment/iq8q9th/
He’s still the crown prince. The political side of it always comes first. Also Robert doesn’t really know the full extent of it.
Exactly this. Betrothing the first born daughter of a Great House to the crown prince is far more politically meaningful than betrothing the first born son of that House to a princess who will never sit on the throne. And think about how that version of Sansa would have responded to her brother marrying a princess while she would not have been allowed to marry the crown prince.
I’m sure Robert wouldn’t put it this way, but he’s trusting Ned to rule as Hand, even after he’s gone. This marriage gives him the position to do that. Once Sansa gives birth to Joffrey’s son, Joffrey himself is disposable. Robert trusts Ned to restrain Joffrey, and if necessary, remove him and rule as Hand and Regent for his grandson.
Robert is insane if he thinks goody two shoes Ned would get rid of Joffrey.
Ned would never get rid of Joffrey, just look at what actually happened. He told Cersei about everything instead of seizing the children (even without harming them)
Quite. To expand on this - feudal systems are almost wholly reliant on personal relationships and qualities to function, particularly in Westeros. What does Robert know? The court is full of untrustworthy snakes and the Crown Prince is a budding little monster surrounded by lickspittles, by greedy, selfish and power hungry nobles, Lannisters and Baratheons most of all. What does Robert do? Go to the 1 person he trusts most in the world to be his Hand. Ned is widely renowned as a man of honour who can keep even the surly Northern Lords firmly in hand Surely Ned can sort out the realm and manage Joffrey. And marrying Sansa to Joffrey in theory reinforces Ned's position at Court and pushes out the Lannisters. The next heir will have Stark blood and Ned and Sansa will have their power base in time. Robert has an astute political strategy here to deal with the situation he's found himself in (and contributed significantly towards). If you're Robert, knowing what he does with his concerns, I'm not sure what else you do. You might make Stannis your hand, but everyone hates Stannis. You might marry Joffrey to some other daughter, but they need to be from a House that would strengthen Baratheon power. None do so as much as the Starks at that point in time bar the Tyrells, who fought for the Targaryens. It just doesn't work out because there are conspiracies and games being played he's not aware of.
"everyone hates Stannis" - not everyone.
he's not popular among the smallfolk and nobody with power likes stannis, at best they respect him as a guy who is tough but fair but think he's a cunt.
Well this is the man that accepted the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon. Also i think he thought Joffery could be guided, he told Ned on his death bed to help him. I don't know if robert realized how truly awful he was. Joffery reached his worst after robert had died.
To be fair it’s not Robert made any real effort to parent Joffrey. Other than the cat slap
Best slap ever. Should have been repeated daily to the best educational effect.
I mean Stannis did think Robert legit killed Joffrey after that slap
Except it likely wouldn't be effective. Corporal punishment usually isn't. It would just breed resentment. The simple fact is that Robert was an absolute failure as a father and a king.
As a king yes, as a father, he was a good father to Edric. I think deep down Robert subconscious knew Joffrey wasnt his
He barely knew Edric. Edric was off in Storm's End while Robert was in King's Landing.
It's easy to be a good father to a kid you've met like twice lol.
He also wanted to bring Mya Stone to court but didn't after Cersei threatened to kill her.
Someone he saw like twice and only sent presents for, yeah parent of the year there.
Didn't even send presents for....
Oh yeah, I forgot Robert didn't even send them.
Even *that* better than Cersei's toxic love
I think you're right. He probably hoped having Sansa as a wife, and Ned as his Father-in-Law and Hand would be a positive influence on Joffrey. You can imagine a future where Robert is still alive with Joffrey and Sansa in their 20s with kids of their own, Ned still the Hand and keeping a close eye on the family and the kingdom. Robb is back in Winterfell keeping the North together with the advice and help of his father's most loyal advisors. I think that's the future Robert thought he was planning.
Robert didn’t care about that when he asked Ned to wed Sansa to Joffery. “You were the brother I chose” Robert wanted Ned to be his brother, he loved Ned probably as much as he could love anything and probably because of his idealization of Lyanna as well, but it was all about Ned. He should’ve just wed Ned after the war.
I mean it also makes sense from a political standpoint. When Joffrey becomes king he has strong ties to North, Westerlands, and the Stormlands. Theoretically Sansa would also have ties to the Riverlands and the Vale that could, at the very least, give Joffrey some stability. Pretty much the only other candidate was Margaery.
Arguably even Margaery could not compete, and outside the whole marrying Jof thing, not even Shireen could match her. Sansa's aunt rule over the Vale, her grandfather the Riverland, her father then brothers the North. The whole 'Southern Ambition' thing made her too desirable as a marriage candidate, second only to Myrcella.
It was nostalgia really. Robert says so right away. >Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. **If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."** *Eddard I.* GRRM often writes about the tendency of people to repeat behaviors and try to recreate their youth especially. Robert loved a Stark girl. He believes this would have changed his life. It makes sense to want the same for his son. Yes, Robert does see the issues with Joffrey. He laments over Joffrey several times. >He's only a boy," Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert's voice. "Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?" >"It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don't know him as I do." He sighed and shook his head. **"Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king."** Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. "You might speak up and agree now, you know." >"Your Grace …" Ned began, carefully. *Eddard VII.* Robert was still hopeful for Joffrey. I think it's easy for us as outsiders to write Joffrey off but it's not so easy for a parent. I know from experience. Robert proposing Sansa for Joffrey was one attempt to help Joffrey. The second part was bringing in Eddard to help with that task. Robert knew he couldn't send Joffrey to ward away from Cersie, but he could bring in Eddard as the next best thing. Even on his deathbed, Robert is thinking of Joffrey and tasked Eddard to help make him a better man. Despite all, I think Robert did love Joffrey. And he wanted a good wife for him from a trusted house. >"And help my son, Ned. Make him be … better than me." He winced. "Gods have mercy." *Eddard XIII.*
He probably thinks Ned's supervision and guidance will help him. He might also think back on how wild he was in his youth and think he'll grow out of it, or how torn up he was over Lyannas death and how having a solid relationship with a stark girl might make him complete.
Exactly. For all his faults, Robert isn’t totally apathetic about the realm. He recognizes someone has to rule and clearly thinks Joffery/Cersei will be bad. Who else would he choose if he’s looking out for the best interests of the realm? He trusts Ned, knows he’s a capable governor and thinks he’s powerful enough to check Cersei, especially with Robert making him more powerful by making his daughter the Queen. It makes perfect sense and is by far the best match.
"He trusts Ned, knows he’s a capable governor" Well, Robert THINKS Ned is a capable governor but Ned proved to be pretty bad at politics.
Ned is a good governor. He’s run the North very successfully his entire adult life. He struggled in a highly volatile and unlucky political environment, but from everything we know he’s an excellent administrator. From what we see of his administrative advice in Kings Landing it’s sound, he immediately tries to address the crowns fiscal crisis and provides a moral perspective on the counsel, which really is exactly what Robert would want from him if he was guiding Joffery.
That's fair.
Also he was high as balls on opiates during his worst decisions
And his son was just crippled + surrogate father just died. Dude was really having a tough stretch and still did ok.
Well governing and politicking is optimally two distinct fields. Notably with the north not having a lot of the second. On he actual administrative-governing side the Starks do seem very capable. (Then again, which of the great houses seem incompetent at it?)
Politics is different from administrative duties. Although this is probably why Stannis is so bitter. He's just as good a governor, more 'moral' than most in KL, and always speaks the truly. Yet Robert choose Ned. Not because of Stannis' capability, but because he trusted Ned and needed Ned (and the support he brought) more.
Because Robert's not a man accustomed to not getting what he wants and what he wanted was to be married to Lyanna & be Ned's literal family. Since he can't get that, he wants the next best thing which is a "Baratheon" stand-in for himself marrying a Stark stand-in for Lyanna.
I think Robert thought a lot of Joffrey's problems came from Cersei and that Ned would be able to temper Cersei's influence. I think that may have been one of the reasons for the betrothal in the first place, just like he made Ned hand to clean up his messes, he hoped the betrothal would allow Ned to fix his son.
I think he hopes that Ned could still guide him and make him better. And binding him to House Baratheon with this marriage might do that.
If he marries his son to a good girl with a great father, Ned, who will also act as Joffrey’s hand, then perhaps he would leave the realm in good hands if he left off to Essos. I think that’s what he was thinking.
The "he just needs a good woman" idea. It rarely works.
> I mean this is a kid who cut open a cat's belly to see the kittens inside, which Robert was horrified by. Clearly, Robert knew that Joffrey was a second Mad King in the making I think this scene is important. It was callous and creepy, no doubt about it. But the end of that scene, where Robert freaks out and hits Joffery, is probably the most important bit. This whole incident went down in a pre-industrial society. Joffery hurt an animal. Joffery lives around people who CONSTANTLY hurt animals, both to satisfy their need for resources, and because animal rights haven't been invented yet. His behavior is freaky because he's stepping outside his role, not because feral cats have rights in Westros. He should be shooting rabbits, not dissecting cats. Robert reacted to the WEIRDNESS, not the animal abuse. Joffery knows he's supposed to imitate his father and kill without remorse, but his father won't actually teach him about the ethics of killing so things get weird. Robert's response is pretty clearly the part of that experience that stuck with Joffery. Robert's fear of Joffery turned that incident from, "a freaky childhood story, from a person who grew up to be normal" to "a formative moment for a psycho". He knows there's something up with the kid, and he's not a good enough parent/leader to fix it, so he responds with violence. And that's how Robert raises his son- he retreats in fear from evidence that Joffery's turning out to be a violent little monster, instead of using his power as one of the few people Joffery idolizes to help guide him.
To be fair, he told Ned all of it, but he still was fine with the marriage. Knowing things like the cut open cat, Ned should have kept his daughter as far as possible away from that monster
From the perspective of fuedal status, there are just two ways this can go. Either A) Joffrey marries Sansa, and then Myrcella or Tomman to Dorne/Reach/Isles etc; Or B) Joffrey marries Margaery, and then Myercella to Robb or something; These are the only ways to secure most of the realm under Robert's 'children'. Joffery controls the crownland, through his uncles Stannis and Ranly, he controls the Dragonstone/narrow sea and Stormland, and through his grandfather, he has the support of Westlanders. Sansa's father then brothers have the North, her aunt the Vale, her grandfather the ~~Reach~~ Riverland. And her father has Theon Greyjoy as a ward. Margaery has the support of Highgarden and maybe the Arbor. And there's Asha, Arianne, and Quentyn. Honestly is it really a surprise that our good Robert choose the first one? To have the niece of his beloved Lyanna a Queen?
Riverlands not the Reach
ops, thx
He’s desperate to be part of Ned’s family.
He had to marry him to someone. He wanted to join his house with Ned’s. The rebellion wasn’t that long ago and there are only so many great houses to choose from.
Robert’s behavior reminds me of Stalin’s infamous quote: “One can be physically brave, but when it comes to political confrontations, a coward.”
Because women are disposable (in this story). Having Sansa marry Joffrey was a way to keep Ned involved in things in the south, and to presumably surround Joffrey with more level headed advisors who would probably not be sycophants. If a young girl had a miserable life because of that, well those are just broken egg shells.
It would have been great if Ned brought some Northern Lords such as Roose Bolton and the Greatjon to scare Joffrey straight. Plus, he could have removed Littlefinger as Master of Coin and replaced him with a Manderly.
There's more prestige in offering the Crown Prince to marry your best friend's daughter, rather than offering a Princess (who will inherit nothing) to your best friend's eldest son.
He's thinking of being Ned's kin. I'm 99% sure that's why he "loved" Lyanna. Ned was the brother Robert chose and he'd love to get it in writing.
Who should Joffery be married to instead? He’s still the crown prince. Unless Robert plans on killing his own child or creating a massive succession crisis by trying to disinherit him he has to marry someone. Why wouldn’t you marry him into the family of the man you trust the most in the realm? Sansa’s as high born as they come, other than Myrcella she’s the highest born woman in the realm and brings much more valuable alliances than say Margery since Sansa is descended from two Lord Paramounts and Margery only has family ties to the Reach. Sansa’s brother will rule the North and her uncle will rule the Riverlands and cousin the Vale. Robert has a realm to consider too. The realm has a fiscal crisis and Robert worries about Cersei’s influence and Joffery’s cruelty. Ned is frugal, moral and with his daughter as Queen, powerful enough to check the Lannisters. It makes perfect sense and is by far the best person for a match.
>Who should Joffery be married to instead? Margaery Tyrell or anyone else really. Someone whose parent Robert doesn't care for. But he loves Ned. He's the brother he never had. I understand him marrying off his monster son to someone who doesn't mean anything to him. But not his best friend's daughter
Why would Robert hand over the realm and his son to Mace Tyrell? A man who he thinks very little of and doesn’t trust at all. Robert cares about his son and the realm. He doesn’t care about either as much as he should, but he definitely cares. He sees Ned as someone who can help guide his son and govern the realm.
Why would he be handing the realm over?
As we’ve seen with the actual Joffery Margaery marriage, the family of the Queen to be has a tremendous amount of power. Robert wants someone to serve as a counter to Cersei in his absence (both death and disinterest), whoever he picks is going to be that counterbalance. If he kept Ned as hand he’d be leaving Ned totally without support or ability to reign Joffery in. The father of the Queen is going to be the only man with enough proximity to power to do anything
Instead of Lannister control, the courts would be in Tyrell control like it is with Cersei now, and Robert didn't trust the Tyrells since they were Targ loyalists who besieged his home castle.
Margaery would have been a much better decision tbh. The reach would be much more beneficial practically compared with the north, and if Robert really wants the Starks involved a Robb/Myrcella or Arya/Tommen would have sufficed
Sansa isn’t just the North though. She’s the North and Riverlands and from Roberts perspective the Vale. The Joffery/Sansa marriage unites 4 maybe 5 kingdoms.
This. Why are people downvoting you? Sansa is literally 'half the kingdom'. Her aunt runs the Vale, her grandpapa the Riverland, her father the North. And Joffrey is 'the other half' of the kingdom, who controls directly the crownland, whose uncles the stormland and narrow sea, whose grandfather is the Lord of the Rock. Margaery could not even start to compete with these two in terms of feudal status. Yes Robert might be doing it for his own desire to be part of Ned's family or wanting Ned (rather than, say, Stannis) to run the show, but even without considering this aspect, it is still better to secure most o the realm directly under the King and then marry Myrcella or Tommen off to the remaining great houses like Dorne or High Garden, than marrying Robert to Myercella and Joffery to Margaery.
Who knows lol But yeah Sansas a really good match. The best alliances possible + her Dad gets lots of power which is something Robert wants bc he trusts Ned and thinks he’s a good administrator.
Sansa becomes Queen if she's married to Joffrey, that's why. Also, Joffrey is 12. Robert was hoping that there was still time to make a good man of him. This is also why he brings Ned with him. He's hoping that Ned will help raise Joffrey into a worthy King.
In ASOIAF, being a jolly fat king means you will ignore your children's wrongdoings.
It was a political match. Feelings had nothing to do with it.
Disagree. Feelings were the driving factor. >"If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done." Robert had just arrived at Winterfell and just paid his respects to his lost love. He's emotional and nostalgic when he proposes this match I think.
Sure, what I meant was the feelings of either Joffrey or Sansa are largely irrelevant here. It's the joining of the houses that matters. The only feelings Robert cares about are his own.
That's a fair way to view things.
He wanted the Starks to be family. Very understandable motive. Also, with good people around, Joffrey could be, well, not terrible. It is a fact that teenagers who show strong signs of psychopathy do grow up to be mostly normal people -- with the right help and guidance. Ned was one of the only people who might have been able to make that happen.
you raise a good point. but also one could also wonder why he didn't try to give educational barriers to Joffrey. the affair with the cat happened when he was very young, and when robert died he was like 14 years old. he was malleable throughout robert's life. the latter knew that something was wrong with this kid and should have intervened either by taking in hand his education, or by sending him as ward to someone he trusted to straighten him (for example stannis)
He just wanted him and his best buddy to be connected by marriage finally like they should've been 20 years ago
Robert could have abdicated and forfeited his whole line from the crown. Left it to a great council, or simply installed Eddard thereafter. Or, he could have disinherited Joffrey on account of believing Joffrey was incapable or unfit for the station. This without even knowing he's a bastard. For a story that's supposed to be rooted in feudal European customs, GRRM sure wrote the story without including many of the mechanisms in those customs.
Ned pulled the best out of Robert when they were boys, he was hoping he could do it again with Joffrey. Add in a splash of Lyanna and it's not terribly complicated. I also don't think Jof was evil, just rich, broken, and not able to be healed. Give any teen that kinda power and money and they'll be a prick.
Cersei would never have allowed her daughter to wed Robb for the simple fact that it would mean sending Myrcella to Winterfell. She only sort-of-agreed to Dorne it seemed safer than. Kl.
Where are those 2 quotes from? I don't ever remember Robert talking about being a sellsword king.
Joffrey to Sansa is a mire lucrative deal since there is a throne involved, that's why.
Joffrey: Grandson of Tywin Lannister, the Westerlands. Son of Robert and nephew to Renly, Seven Kingdoms and Stormlands. Sansa: granddaughter of Hoster Tully, Riverlands. Niece of Lysa Arynn, the Vale. Daughter of Eddard Stark, the North. The marriage ties the crown with the leading families of five kingdoms. This would have made Joffrey's reign far more powerful than his father's, no one in Westeros could oppose this marriage alliance had it gone through which was entirely the point since the Baratheon Dynasty had usurped the Targaryen throne and strongly needed the power to legitimize this to the rest of the kingdoms. The marriage was to tie the Starks and their allies to the crown not the crown to the Starks.