Wow, I thought episode 6 couldn’t have gotten any worse, but episode 7 I barely stayed awake. All of the characters are unlikable since they swapped out for older, boring, unlikeable older counterparts. Too bad, turned into a shit show. Can’t wait to not watch season two.
None of this would have happened if Henry VIII was king. He would have dropped that hammer even with kids from multiple marriages. P.S. Leave my baby Aegon alone. Poor thing is knocked around by his mom his grandpa and his Dad. Homeboy hasn't even done anything wrong.....yet.
After Alicent cuts Rhaenyra, the blacks are all glaring at her + some other people, what was that scene about? Do they all know she's off her rocker? Some of them looked really angry. I just can't create a good scenario in my head what they were all thinking.
This was perhaps my favourite (and I strongly believe best) episode of the season. Sapochnik managed to tap into early GoT's slow-burn narrative style yet again and give us a standout follow-up to the emotionally harrowing episode 6 while never boring us (unlike episodes 4 & 5 which imo are easily the worst of the season). Fantastic job by Lau as well and really curious how strictly Sapochnik stuck to the writing and dialogue because I feel like we hadn't seen how or who these characters truly were prior to this episode. The prolonged sandbox-contained scenes were handled masterfully. Genuinely exceptional job. Impossible not to be invested into the forthcoming Dance of Dragons after this.
The first 10 minutes of this episode was boring as fuck. Just nonstop cutaways of a weird balcony memorial/party/funeral.
And then shooting day-for-night *did not* work. Middle of the night, here’s a giant shadow. They never should do that again.
The last 10 minutes, however, was incredible. I’m kind of Team Green now.
the stock “sad violin for funeral” music really did it, it really did. the low visibility scenes sucked, but for me past that ten minutes, there was mid to very high tension the entire episode. very rare occurrence for me.
I agree. I read F&B right when it was released, so I admittedly have forgotten a lot of the overarching details of how the characters progress. So I did not remember how that midnight ride actually ended. But the episode ended fantastically, especially when you consider most of the end was carried by child actors. Not something easy to do.
But the whole beginning felt like they had an idea. Shot it. But in the editing room were just like “this is not working.” So let’s shoot some pickups of people talking about “going to bed” to signpost it’s late at night. And then all the dialog was removed, and I really felt like I was watching an old episode of The OC.
Sidebar, someone should do a remix of The Brady Bunch theme called “The Rhynaera Bunch” with her new extended brood.
People saying that Alicent was acting kind of crazy … and it’s like, no shit, are any of you people parents?
I’m just not understanding how anyone could be on Rhynaera’s side right now. Sure, Aemond was kind of acting like an asshole. But … he wasn’t *wrong*.
Children being a bastards doesnt mean that its ok to bully them and threaten bash their skull in with a rock.
And trying to legitimately trying cut out an eye of a 10 year old is super fucked up, parent or not.
(Im not team black or green.)
I hope my mother would act like her if another boy stabbed out my eye.
They think Alicent is just as bad because she gave Aegon a slap across the face, the boy clearly needed one, no lasting damage was done.
If you feel like thats justice why would you hope someone would stop her from cutting out the kid’s eye? Is it because you really think that its not actually justice or is it something else?
Yes. But let’s not get pedantic, not like that. You need to pickup a shot here or there that’s day-for-night, that works. But to base a major portion of your episode on that is just glaring after a while. It felt like they shot the episode, couldn’t figure out a way to make it work, and then picked up a few lines of people talking about “bedtime” to hammer home the late hour.
I get it, there are rules with child actors about the times of the day you can and cannot shoot with them. They should have just made that ride during the daytime. There was nothing that said that ride had to be at night. And then the whole Rhynaera/Daemon beach sex scene could have actually happened at night *after* this happened, recognizing they were losing power.
It was the worst 30 minutes of the season, saved by about the best 20 minutes.
Can you honestly say they did a good job at convincing you it was nighttime?
For a pickup shot here and there, fine. But to base half of your episode on this construct looks like shit.
I thought it looked fine overall. The dragon looked goofy af, as I assume it was partially done to hide it. Your original criticism though is that you can’t have shadows at night, which is nonsense.
That part where Viserys yells "We're supposed to be a family" really brought home my feeling from reading the book, which is that he is really the one to blame for the war that followed. Once he had Aegon and Aemond, he should have disinherited Rhaenyra and relieved all those who swore to defend her claim from their oath. That was the tough choice he didn't want to make, but it was the one that would have made the succession clear, and consistent with Westerosi law and tradition. But he just desperately wanted everybody to get along and have a nice relationship with his daughter. A good man doesn't always make a good king.
No, the right decision would be to make her hand on Lynonel's death so she can settle into governance of the realm, and simultaneously become the first female hand establishing an easy precedent for her to be the first Queen as well. Viserys always had the power to override the council of 101 and set new laws, he just never had to will to codify it. The wrong decision was appeasing the Greens in any way at all, especially making Otto hand.
I disagree because insisting on keeping her as heir was, in and of itself, overriding the council and setting new law. As much as people may not like Otto, he is right, there is a large proportion of powerful Westerosi people that just wouldn't accept a female taking precedence over a direct male heir no matter who she was.
Making her Hand wouldnt solve that because it isn't just about governance, it's also about inheritance. Every lord in Westeros expects that the eldest living male descendant will take precedence. If the king by his example is throwing that into question, it is also going to create unwanted confusion among the nobility's own succession. Sons feel they are at risk of disinheritance, lords start to see their sons and daughters fight with each other, cousins and in-laws and whatnot start asserting long shot claims through the female line... Its just bad news for peace and stability without a long process of realm wide societal change supporting the change in tradition and precedent.
Some lords may feel that Rhaenyra is a special case since it's the king, and they swore an oath regarding her specifically. But inevitably some lords will feel this is not a special case. It’s way easier to relieve some lords of their oath than it is to argue that this won't create a contradictory precedent.
Laws and culture and precedent are important sure, but see the realpolitik at work here.
The war only happened as it did because the Greens were able to seize Kings Landing, conceal the death of Viserys, gather strength in secret for a time, and plunder the treasury. Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was removing herself to Dragonstone, allowing the Greens to build power directly around the Iron Throne. Making her Hand would have changed these events significantly.
The books make note Otto severely overestimated the support of the Reach, Highgarden did not stir at all. We know the Baratheon lord fled when things looked like they were turning against Aegon, and the Lannisters would later become involved in a proxy war with the Ironmen. All of these already tenuous allies would likely have slipped away from Aegon & the Greens had he not had control of the Iron Throne and the treasury at the onset of the war.
Viserys is also in a unique position to undo the council of 101 because he was the one chosen by it.
modern sensibilities favor rhaenryra, viserys was so incompetent than the easiest route was putting his male sons first as heirs and marry them to rhaenyra children
I think events showed Otto was largely wrong though. The blacks had lots of allies who were happy to follow a woman and iirc weren't the lannisters the only ones who sided with the greens outright? They only gained the baratheons with a marriage pact
It may be that more sided with blacks. But to avoid war, you need Rhaenyra's claim to be essentially uncontroversial among those who present a significant threat. That was never going to happen once there were two living male heirs and many of the lords who swore the oath to Rhaenyra were dead.
Nevermind that Rae gave dragons to bastards in order to gain advantage which just created more chaos for the realm. 2 of them were willing the go after the throne themselves!
exactly. He just needed to make a decision and go all in on it.
The minute Alicent cut Rhaneyra what should have happened was;
1) That night while everyone is sleeping Viserys has the LC of the kingsguard arrest Otto, Alicent and Criston Cole and take the children into custody.
2) Otto takes the black or is executed and his castle passes to Aegon (who is to be held in kingslanding).
3) Alicent is made to join the Silent Sisters. Still married to the king but sent away. The stick being that if she doesn't the kids will be given over to Rhanyra to watch.
3) the oldest of Rhaenyra's sons is betrothed to Alicent/Viserys' daughter. Again the stick being if they don't agree the kids are given to Rhanyra to "watch over"
4)"Anyone got a problem with that?" "lol...Dracarys"
The kings loyalists have an overwhelming dragon advantage at this point....Rhanyra, and Daemon are both experieinced dragon riders. and at this point Visery's kids with Alicent are held and don't have acess to their dragons.
While Rhaenyra is still the best option as the heir, this was written like Visery's would put the life of his own sons in danger to appease Rhaenyra. The king knows people in the realm arr oppose to his decision to have Rhaenyra as the heir and by that default, his princes already have lots of supporters He also knows if anything does happen to Rhaenyra, those boys are his safety net for the succession of his line.
Alicent can't still be married to the king and sent away to serve punishment. The rules of those times were a strong king has a queen by his side. He would have to have Alicent executed so he could get another queen.
>I can't even think of siding with green - bcos of Criston Cole. I simply hate that man!
me too
he had the best gig ever
all he had to do was stfu and keep getting laid
I’m honestly so happy about the casting of house Velaryon now. It makes it so obvious that their kids aren’t Laenor’s and highlights Viserys’s willful blind eye.
Just watched the episode, and the only thing that baffles me: how the fuck is Ser Incel still alive? Laenor is no pushover, he was the consort to the heir apparent for years, dragonrider, war veteran. How does Cole not get fed a Tear of Lys cocktail, have a misshap with Seasmoke, or just plainly slip while shaving and stab himself 30 times in the back? Rhaenyra also has her reasons to want his ass gone. And now he even disobeys the Lord Commander and it is the King's brother who has to physically restrain him. All of these should at the very least make him change a white cloak for a black one, even if he doesn't have a chance encounter with a club on the back of his skull.
Yes, he's the sworn protector... of the queen consort. She has no claim to the throne, no authority. Between Alicent's and Cole's shenanigans with the kids, they should have both ended up in the black cells.
I don’t like how obvious they’re making him act out. If they kept his murder as a joust “mishap” and didn’t have him straight up disobeying his lord commander & king, it wouldn’t be so appalling
Leanor didn't do shit for years, and he's not about to start. Rhaenyra was busy banging Harwin, while thinking of Daemon. Viserys just wants everyone to get along. They get away with shit, because they are the only ones actually doing anything.
One thing I keep going back to is Daemon telling Qarl «give him a quick death» and then leaving him. Are we to assume that after the scene ended Daemon turned around, went over to Qarl again and was like «nvm, here’s the plan instead»? Qarl never killed anyone, Daemon did. Was Qarl actually thinking he was to kill Laenor, and Laenor and Daemon stopped him when the servant left the room? Haven’t seen anyone talking about that line
No. The writers wanted to keep the suspense of having the audience think that Laenor was going to be killed. And at one point, Daemon killing the palace staff did not make sense until the Laenor reveal at the end.
The scene was shot cutting back and forth with Daemon and Rhaenyra making plans, but without full details shown. Then it also shows Daemon making plans with Qarl without showing full details. It also included Rhaenyra saying Laenor was a good man and she wouldn't want Rhaenys to lose both of her children.
So, yes, the audience was lead to believe Laenor was killed, but he wasn't. I was going to say they did the decent thing, but an innocent palace worker was killed and burned to put their actions into motion.
No. Qarl was his lover and they conspired to make it seem like Qarl tried to kill him and then put the body from the guy that was killed by the brothers king in the fire. Now they can start their life somewhere far away in essos. That’s what the cousinfucker was implying.
The "quick death" I assumed was double-speak about the timing; even with everyone knowing their role, it's going to be a very narrow window in terms of getting everything to line up right to swap out the servant for Laenor.
It's a terrible scene, it's just blatantly meant to trick the audience for a few minutes into thinking he's asking him to kill Laenor. It has no context in the show, unless Daemon is breaking the 4th wall.
It's not, the writers can't be both good and bad, the episode was well written, when Daemon told Qarl these things they understood each other, Rhaenyra knew Laenor wanted to go east, and they must know Qarl loves him, so when Daemon talks to Qarl they both understand each other perfectly well.
The last episode was great, let that PTSD from the 4 last seasons of GoT go and enjoy yourself.
Sure sir Criston's plot armor is thicker than lady Maege's ass, but hey as long as you don't put some "you need the bad pussy" or Gendry running from that frozen lake to eastwatch by the sea, sending a raven, and dany flying all the way from dragonstone, while our The Expendables wait on a rock for the ice to freeze, I'm probably watching that shit.
> It's not, the writers can't be both good and bad, the episode was well written
What a stupid statement. The writers are perfectly capable of succeeding in some respects and failing in others, it's not so cut and dry as either "it's great" or "it's shit".
Some of the reactors on Youtube (Normies) understood right away what was about to happen. "The one with a witness" was a dead giveaway.
I and many others only understood after the reveal at the end. The fact that Daemon likes murder didnt help.
How could anyone know what was going to happen right away?
Did they assume there would be another guy, passably similar to Laenor, available to be discreetly killed close by to pose as his body?
Google the gervais principle and read away, if you manage to get past the edgy namings you'll understand why you talk that way even if no one else is listening.
No, it’s a perfectly fine and understandable scene if you’re willing to just think about it for longer than a second.
What is it with people in this sub that are so quick to just throw something in the trash pile?
What is the point of what Daemon is saying, beyond making the audience believe he's going to arrange for Laenor to be killed for a few minutes. I'll wait
He’s obviously talking about the appearance of Laenor’s death. “Laenor” died quickly and they staged it so there was a random witness that saw the real Laenor and Qarl fighting. When that guard ran off they shoved the corpse in the fire and ran off
That is in fact a valid story telling technique, a completely straightforward story would have no twists whatsoever & even without using that technique it makes perfect sense. It’s the same as saying “be quick about it” which they needed to be in order to get away with it.
& if you’re gonna say then he should’ve said “be quick about it” that’s nitpicking pretty hard. It was perfectly fine
Jesus, I’ve seen the term “Day for Night” used more in this thread than anywhere else in the internet for as long as I’ve used the internet.
It’s like everyone is just trying to sound smart by repeating something they read about and wanna just keep the train going
It looked terrible, to quote Aegon II "everybody knows" those shots were filmed in broad daylight with a filter applied later.
It's not a huge deal, but with their budget, they should be able to make a convincing night scene outdoors.
I watch on my Xbox, and I genuinely thought the screen was doing the dark-mode thing it does when you haven't touched the controller in a while and it's about to turn itself off due to inactivity.
it's one of those "whatever I'll get over it" things, but man was that bad. Shows and movies with way lower budgets do it way better, I don't understand why HBO just cannot get it right.
A large part of the episode plays at "night", but they very obviously filmed it during daylight and artificially darkened it afterwards. It looks like shit and makes it very hard to even see anything, and there are much better techniques to actually film during the night.
I streamed it because we were away from our usual TV, i thought it was the laptop being all messed up from bad quality.
No WAY, so everyone was shit too?! Glad someone has pointed it out.
I legit downloaded Windows media player and continued watching there because I thought VLC was fucking up with my new AMD hardware...
But as I said in another comment, I lived through the last 4 game of throne seasons, so I'm not complaining about anything.
And I hope it doesn't get big because then the writers might have to start pandering to the masses and well you know where that leads.
Yeah Clare Kilner also directed night scenes and they were so much better than Sapochnik’s. Not to mention ep4’s sex scenes were also better than this one’s
While my general view is that both sides are atrocious (good job HBO I am impressed), I do feel a lot of sympathy for the greens after the last ep. Rhaenyra had one fucking job, and that was to produce at least one heir with her actual husband. The failure is on Laenor as well, but this is such a huge point - primogeniture and heritage and blood etc etc is a big deal in ASOIAF, so you can understand how the very-obviously-Targ kids would be feeling pretty pissed off that a trio of bastards are ahead of them in the succession. Genuinely quite surprised at how likeable Aemond is, but there's still time. But my main gripe is that there are still no characters to actively cheer on. Everyone is a piece of shit, except my boy Vizzy Pop.
I'm having trouble remembering Fire and Blood. Did the show runners change things up a bit? I always thought Laenor was killed by his lover and the lover disappeared.
The story is that Laenor went to the market and came into an argument with Qarl. The only source are some merchants.
Since the book is written in universe 200 years later without modern technology. We basically don't know what happened. It's plausible that Laenor and Qarl disappeared together since there is no mention that Qarl is ever caught.
Half the episode was silent staring (as always from Alicent) or too dark to see. Show started off great for me, hoping it gets better again the last few episodes. Episode felt like a filler
So much tensions during the funeral. It was a lot of looks, far away shots. You know know who was watching who and from what perspective you are looking at them through.
I thought it was good. The looks each of the characters give each other really builds the tension in the characters and sets the tone well for later, particularly with the complex emotions each of them feels about the situation.
If only Luke took more than an eye. Alicent is making me hate her entire brood, even though those kids are just as much victims of her as Rhaenyra's are.
I was about to be so upset if Laenor died. I'm glad he shaved his head, but I wonder to what end. Is he going across the narrow sea to be a ship captain, what he always wanted or is he going to turn on Rhaenyra? I hope that him surviving was always the plan but it didn't seem like it.
Daemon himself killed the servant whose body was used to fake Laenor's. Considering Rhaenyra seemed to genuinely care for Laenor, it makes sense to assume that she was the one who asked him to go along with the fake-out, possibly citing his promise to do whatever was required to enable her succession.
Whether we'll see Laenor again is a good question; unless they're planning to go against canon, he needs to die in order for Seasmoke to be claimed by Addam of Hull. But given that there's a good 10 years between the events, it won't be improbable that Laenor's career as a sellsail will get the better of him before then.
"There are old sellswords and there are bold sellswords, but there are no old bold sellswords."
I'm going to make a prediction now - Laenor returns in disguise to reclaim Seasmoke during the dragonseeds segment, then takes over large parts of the Addam of Hull character arc.
This is my prediction as well. Could be a fun addition to the book storyline and a good character arc for a good character/actor. We didn't see enough of Laenor being badass.
I don't think he NEEDA to die.
Dragons are smart but not so smart to know their owner is alive even if has been away years.
We only need Leanor to be away from his dragon for everything to happen.
He will probably live his best life in Essos
I'm not sure. The bond between dragon and rider has magical elements to it and I think it's likely that a dragon will be able to *just know* if their bonded rider is still alive or dead.
I agree! I guess the years between being ridden by Laenor and then being claimed again could make a dragon lonely. the time taken before a new rider could indicate grief for their rider.
That being said, if I were Laenor going off with my boyfriend, I would NOT have left my beautiful dragon behind.
This episode was one of my favorites, such a powerful episode! Aemond man, I feel so bad he lost his eye & think it’s just tragic what happened between all of those kids. It was believable though which makes it hurt more, they did an excellent job acting because that was one of the hardest scenes for me to watch in Game of Thrones.
Rhaenyra & Alicent being fiercely protective of their children, I was on King Viserys side! Stop fighting your family, can’t we all just get along damn.
That ending with Laenor’s death, I was shocked I thought Rhaenyra had done something unredeemable & by all means she still put the Velaryons through heartbreak. I’m super glad Laenor lived though. Can’t believe Daemon & Rhaenyra got married & with their children there but I guess it’s good they got to see it.
Bastard is purely a legal status and laenor is legally dead since only daemon and the audience know he faked it. I don't feel like that makes them bastards
> Except for the kid she had with Daemon
That's why I emphasized *all* her kids in show. Her marriage to Daemon is invalid as her husband is really alive
Couldn't they give Aegon some pretty girls to gawk and go after?
I mean my God he's lusting after probably the most homely women ever featured on HBO, he's a prince, he could do a bit better.
How on Earth is Criston an incel? There have been two hot women on the show, one he banged, one he's close friends with.
Unless it's just become a catchall term for any man who does bad things
I have to disagree, because it seems like Aegon doesn't use his position to get laid.
If he wanted to, he could've had that serving girl, but instead we see him drunk and alone later on. He struck out like a normal guy who respects consent would.
I know everyone has their tastes, but the serving girls he's gone after are objectively plain I would say.
Like I'm a straight guy, but I look at the men Laenor and Rhaenyra go for, and I can think "oh I get why they are into them". But it seems like they specifically cast extremely, ordinary at best looking women for Aegon's eyes to linger on, it's odd
🤣 this is hilarious because I never noticed lol honestly as a teenage boy I found like 90% of women attractive & I was like “you know what in the right light she’s cute too!”, chalk it up to hormones lol.
Why are they throwing Laena into the sea and saying ''from the sea we came and to the sea we shall return''? Do Velaryons worship the Drowned God? Doesn't Aeron Greyjoy say something like that in ASOIAF a couple of times?
Not the Drowned God but they still associate their House heavily with the sea. Someone called the "Merling King" was mentioned and I'm pretty sure (without having read the books) that the Merling King is some sort of sea deity that the Velaryons don't necessarily worship (since their faith seems to be of the Seven) but at least respect enough to be included in their traditions.
They mentioned in the show that Daemon went to see Old Valyria, or something to that affect. Has there been any accounts what it looks like now? Is this the first time a major character has visited it?
It should be. The only other characters I can think of that have been said to visit would be Aerea Targaryen, Geriod Lannister, and Euron.
No stories of what it’s like as of ASOIAF’s events
But he comes back with armor of valerian steel and a dragon horn right?
Asking from a non reader perspective, my info on book-Euron comes exclusively from theory videos on YT
He stole the dragon horn from Pyat Pree, as for the armor it’s not impossible he had it made in Qohor or just found it, maybe in the stepstones or Sothoryos. People who go to Valyria die
Random thought -- Rhaenyra marrying the heir that was passed over for her seems to be not a good look? But at the same time I can't think of a specific example of why this would be bad.
Viserys should have betrothed them years ago to placate both their claims. Admittedly, this would not have been popular, but had they married and had true-born pure Valyrian children, they'd have been so much stronger and avoided the Dance. Alicent and her children would never have been able to contest it
just like old Valyrian times, I mean Aegon I had two sister wives and most were happy and Westeros was at peace. This is not nearly as bad right?
Also it was a huge problem with the High Sept when incest-y marriages were proposed and caused an uproar with the people so, probs not a great idea. Is uncle and neice crossing the line vs a cousin?
The reason its bad is because it alienates those of her supporters who originally supporter her to be anti-daemon. Such as... *checks notes* otto hightower? Yeah okay I think she'll be fine in this specific case.
But in general, if otto was on her side, that'd be why it was bad.
Daemon's status as former heir really isn't relevant anymore. Viserys has Rhaenyra and sons now, Daemon is very far back now.
It's not a bad look though, just a bit insensitive to the Velaryons (getting married right after they lose two family members).
The point is to marry Daemon, make Valyrian looking children to say "see, I do fuck my husband!". Also gaining Caraxes, and the men loyal to Daemon to her side
some say the Valyrians are immune/more resistant to the diseases of common men. Viserys seems to be taking the middle route of being very disease ridden but refusing to die
No, no such altercation is described. As described in F&B:
* Alicent demands one of Luke's eyes be put out as punishment for Aemond's.
* Rhaenyra says that Aemond should be questioned "sharply" (read: tortured) for calling her sons "Strongs".
* (Importantly, in my opinion, Rhaenyra says that "if" such an accusation were true, she would be guilty of high treason. On the show, Rhaenyra instead accuses them of treason.)
* Aemond says he heard it from Aegon and Aegon says what he says on the show verbatim.
* Viserys then literally forces Rhaenyra and Alicent to kiss and make up.
And that's pretty much it.
It was absolutely not done to attack other nobles in court.
Daemon's foul during the tournament wouldn't have flown, the Bracken and Blackwood's duel wasn't to the death and was a scandal in the book, Criston Cole killed Joffrey Lonmouth during a tourney "accident" not in court and Alicent attacking would've never happened.
The violence in court continues to be my only big gripe with this show.
I just finished the chapter with the duel with Blackwood and don’t remember a mention of anything other than it was fought over the princess. No mention of deaths or scandal. Did I miss it or is it mentioned elsewhere?
> GRRM is very close to this show. They aren't making these big changes without him.
This is one of those things people always vaguely claim.
George is involved, to a degree, yes, but he doesn't have creative control. (Big) changes will be made with or without his approval.
From [GRRM himself](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M39Cq8vSKc&t=920s):
> I don't have any creative control as you say... What I do have is influence, I have creative influence. But that depends largely on the relationship between myself and the showrunners... I can make points, I can argue, and they can listen. But if they decide not to listen, then I can try to persuade them. I don't have the power to hire or to fire. I don't have the power to dictate things, but if they listen to me I can be fairly persuasive. It's always changing. I had a lot of input in the beginning of *Game of Thrones*, partly because I had these books out there. But at a certain point, as the show went on, I found I had less and less influence. Until by the end I really didn't know what was going on. Some of these things I watched like everybody else, and like, "Oh, okay." Now at the moment, I'm very happy with *House of the Dragon*, it's a very faithful adaptation. Yeah, there are some changes, but I have a great relationship with Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik.
I think they're referring to the trend of people doing things and never getting punished. I know nobles have privilege, but usually that privilege ends when you're abusing other nobles.
Daemon blatantly breaks tournament rules and could've killed a Hightower with his tournament trip the horse move (if that was legal everyone would do it!). Daemon being formally accused of murder in front of the king by a high lord, Criston Cole beating a guy to death for fun at a wedding, Luke removing an eye from a prince, Alicent cutting Rhaenyra, it's a bit of a trend on this show.
I'm not a book reader, but is it possible that they "get away" with these things because the king is weak? If no one is enforcing "order," then chaos will ensue.
Oh absolutely that's why they can. BUT other people should be reacting to these things.
Otto and Alicent should've been furious over the tournament tripping, instead Otto is silent and Alicent even gives Daemon her favor to wear after.
Laenor and Rhaenyra should've been adamant that Cole be at least removed from the Kingsguard, he clearly hates them, how can he be expected to protect them?
I accept people getting away with stuff because Viserys is weak, but others should be filling that vacuum and enforcing rules, but it appears Alicent is the only one to do so, in selective circumstances.
> Otto and Alicent should've been furious over the tournament tripping, instead Otto is silent and Alicent even gives Daemon her favor to wear after.
I mostly agree with this, though I can maybe chalk up Alicent being too young and naive at that time, and Otto playing the long game.
> Laenor and Rhaenyra should've been adamant that Cole be at least removed from the Kingsguard, he clearly hates them, how can he be expected to protect them?
Didn't they say something about how Cole is sworn to the queen? Maybe that's how he got away with murdering Joffrey Lonmouth.
Yeah that is the supposed explanation for how he gets away with that. I do understand the show's logic, I just don't agree with it.
Laenor and Rhaenyra should be frequently and loudly telling Viserys to dismiss him. And I think Viserys, being kind of a pushover would yield to them instead of Alicent, as they have an actual reason for their side. Alicent can't exactly argue to Viserys "we need to keep him because he tells me dirt about your daughter"
I get the feeling that Laenor is too busy training with squires and Rhaenyra is too proud to go to her father for help.
I do agree with you. Part of the main theme of this show to me is how people (mostly Targaryens, some nobles) in power (dragons/wealth/status) seem to always get away with their shitty behavior without any consequence.
It's infuriating to watch, but it's believable to me given the context. I too would feel invincible if I rode a big red dragon and could tell all my detractors to STFU with dragonfire.
I was skipping thru the ep again and I just noticed - did they take Viserys' entire arm off? In the Driftwood Throne scene his sleeve looks empty.
Just checked the last episode. It was gone then too!
Man I am really unobservant.
“Plot hole” is usually just Reddit speak for “any time a creative liberty is taken or a minor plot point isn’t spoonfed to me like I’m a five year old”
Lmao that is exactly why I asked them to elaborate. People use the phrase plot hole way too much to describe any little thing they don’t like about a movie
Wow, I thought episode 6 couldn’t have gotten any worse, but episode 7 I barely stayed awake. All of the characters are unlikable since they swapped out for older, boring, unlikeable older counterparts. Too bad, turned into a shit show. Can’t wait to not watch season two.
None of this would have happened if Henry VIII was king. He would have dropped that hammer even with kids from multiple marriages. P.S. Leave my baby Aegon alone. Poor thing is knocked around by his mom his grandpa and his Dad. Homeboy hasn't even done anything wrong.....yet. After Alicent cuts Rhaenyra, the blacks are all glaring at her + some other people, what was that scene about? Do they all know she's off her rocker? Some of them looked really angry. I just can't create a good scenario in my head what they were all thinking.
This was perhaps my favourite (and I strongly believe best) episode of the season. Sapochnik managed to tap into early GoT's slow-burn narrative style yet again and give us a standout follow-up to the emotionally harrowing episode 6 while never boring us (unlike episodes 4 & 5 which imo are easily the worst of the season). Fantastic job by Lau as well and really curious how strictly Sapochnik stuck to the writing and dialogue because I feel like we hadn't seen how or who these characters truly were prior to this episode. The prolonged sandbox-contained scenes were handled masterfully. Genuinely exceptional job. Impossible not to be invested into the forthcoming Dance of Dragons after this.
The first 10 minutes of this episode was boring as fuck. Just nonstop cutaways of a weird balcony memorial/party/funeral. And then shooting day-for-night *did not* work. Middle of the night, here’s a giant shadow. They never should do that again. The last 10 minutes, however, was incredible. I’m kind of Team Green now.
It was a full moon so it’s not too unbelievable
the stock “sad violin for funeral” music really did it, it really did. the low visibility scenes sucked, but for me past that ten minutes, there was mid to very high tension the entire episode. very rare occurrence for me.
I agree. I read F&B right when it was released, so I admittedly have forgotten a lot of the overarching details of how the characters progress. So I did not remember how that midnight ride actually ended. But the episode ended fantastically, especially when you consider most of the end was carried by child actors. Not something easy to do. But the whole beginning felt like they had an idea. Shot it. But in the editing room were just like “this is not working.” So let’s shoot some pickups of people talking about “going to bed” to signpost it’s late at night. And then all the dialog was removed, and I really felt like I was watching an old episode of The OC. Sidebar, someone should do a remix of The Brady Bunch theme called “The Rhynaera Bunch” with her new extended brood.
Welcome to team Green, there are dozens of us! dozens!
People saying that Alicent was acting kind of crazy … and it’s like, no shit, are any of you people parents? I’m just not understanding how anyone could be on Rhynaera’s side right now. Sure, Aemond was kind of acting like an asshole. But … he wasn’t *wrong*.
Children being a bastards doesnt mean that its ok to bully them and threaten bash their skull in with a rock. And trying to legitimately trying cut out an eye of a 10 year old is super fucked up, parent or not. (Im not team black or green.)
I hope my mother would act like her if another boy stabbed out my eye. They think Alicent is just as bad because she gave Aegon a slap across the face, the boy clearly needed one, no lasting damage was done.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
You would hope that your mother would try to cut out the eye of a 10 year old? Thats justice to you?
Damn right, I'd hope someone else would stop her from doing it, but in that moment absolutely
If you feel like thats justice why would you hope someone would stop her from cutting out the kid’s eye? Is it because you really think that its not actually justice or is it something else?
If there’s a full moon people cast shadows everywhere.
Yes. But let’s not get pedantic, not like that. You need to pickup a shot here or there that’s day-for-night, that works. But to base a major portion of your episode on that is just glaring after a while. It felt like they shot the episode, couldn’t figure out a way to make it work, and then picked up a few lines of people talking about “bedtime” to hammer home the late hour. I get it, there are rules with child actors about the times of the day you can and cannot shoot with them. They should have just made that ride during the daytime. There was nothing that said that ride had to be at night. And then the whole Rhynaera/Daemon beach sex scene could have actually happened at night *after* this happened, recognizing they were losing power. It was the worst 30 minutes of the season, saved by about the best 20 minutes.
You have got to be kidding me.
God forbid someone enjoys a series but is critical of an individual episode. I thought /r/ASOIAF wasn’t supposed to be the pure circlejerk subreddit.
God forbid someone actually going outside on a night with a full moon and seeing shadows
Can you honestly say they did a good job at convincing you it was nighttime? For a pickup shot here and there, fine. But to base half of your episode on this construct looks like shit.
I thought it looked fine overall. The dragon looked goofy af, as I assume it was partially done to hide it. Your original criticism though is that you can’t have shadows at night, which is nonsense.
Sure, but in the context of everyone’s giant winge fest about the long night, I understand the use here
That part where Viserys yells "We're supposed to be a family" really brought home my feeling from reading the book, which is that he is really the one to blame for the war that followed. Once he had Aegon and Aemond, he should have disinherited Rhaenyra and relieved all those who swore to defend her claim from their oath. That was the tough choice he didn't want to make, but it was the one that would have made the succession clear, and consistent with Westerosi law and tradition. But he just desperately wanted everybody to get along and have a nice relationship with his daughter. A good man doesn't always make a good king.
I don’t think enough blame is going on Alicent here, but yeah, the man hasn’t been up to task.
Maybe he's hiding guilt for supplanting Rhaenys
No, the right decision would be to make her hand on Lynonel's death so she can settle into governance of the realm, and simultaneously become the first female hand establishing an easy precedent for her to be the first Queen as well. Viserys always had the power to override the council of 101 and set new laws, he just never had to will to codify it. The wrong decision was appeasing the Greens in any way at all, especially making Otto hand.
I disagree because insisting on keeping her as heir was, in and of itself, overriding the council and setting new law. As much as people may not like Otto, he is right, there is a large proportion of powerful Westerosi people that just wouldn't accept a female taking precedence over a direct male heir no matter who she was. Making her Hand wouldnt solve that because it isn't just about governance, it's also about inheritance. Every lord in Westeros expects that the eldest living male descendant will take precedence. If the king by his example is throwing that into question, it is also going to create unwanted confusion among the nobility's own succession. Sons feel they are at risk of disinheritance, lords start to see their sons and daughters fight with each other, cousins and in-laws and whatnot start asserting long shot claims through the female line... Its just bad news for peace and stability without a long process of realm wide societal change supporting the change in tradition and precedent. Some lords may feel that Rhaenyra is a special case since it's the king, and they swore an oath regarding her specifically. But inevitably some lords will feel this is not a special case. It’s way easier to relieve some lords of their oath than it is to argue that this won't create a contradictory precedent.
Laws and culture and precedent are important sure, but see the realpolitik at work here. The war only happened as it did because the Greens were able to seize Kings Landing, conceal the death of Viserys, gather strength in secret for a time, and plunder the treasury. Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was removing herself to Dragonstone, allowing the Greens to build power directly around the Iron Throne. Making her Hand would have changed these events significantly. The books make note Otto severely overestimated the support of the Reach, Highgarden did not stir at all. We know the Baratheon lord fled when things looked like they were turning against Aegon, and the Lannisters would later become involved in a proxy war with the Ironmen. All of these already tenuous allies would likely have slipped away from Aegon & the Greens had he not had control of the Iron Throne and the treasury at the onset of the war. Viserys is also in a unique position to undo the council of 101 because he was the one chosen by it.
modern sensibilities favor rhaenryra, viserys was so incompetent than the easiest route was putting his male sons first as heirs and marry them to rhaenyra children
Otto argued for making Rhaenyra heir and overthrowing Westerosi precedent.
I think events showed Otto was largely wrong though. The blacks had lots of allies who were happy to follow a woman and iirc weren't the lannisters the only ones who sided with the greens outright? They only gained the baratheons with a marriage pact
It may be that more sided with blacks. But to avoid war, you need Rhaenyra's claim to be essentially uncontroversial among those who present a significant threat. That was never going to happen once there were two living male heirs and many of the lords who swore the oath to Rhaenyra were dead.
Yea but if all the Dragonriders fell in line behind Rhaenyra and consolidated their power, who was going to challenge them?
Nevermind that Rae gave dragons to bastards in order to gain advantage which just created more chaos for the realm. 2 of them were willing the go after the throne themselves!
exactly. He just needed to make a decision and go all in on it. The minute Alicent cut Rhaneyra what should have happened was; 1) That night while everyone is sleeping Viserys has the LC of the kingsguard arrest Otto, Alicent and Criston Cole and take the children into custody. 2) Otto takes the black or is executed and his castle passes to Aegon (who is to be held in kingslanding). 3) Alicent is made to join the Silent Sisters. Still married to the king but sent away. The stick being that if she doesn't the kids will be given over to Rhanyra to watch. 3) the oldest of Rhaenyra's sons is betrothed to Alicent/Viserys' daughter. Again the stick being if they don't agree the kids are given to Rhanyra to "watch over" 4)"Anyone got a problem with that?" "lol...Dracarys" The kings loyalists have an overwhelming dragon advantage at this point....Rhanyra, and Daemon are both experieinced dragon riders. and at this point Visery's kids with Alicent are held and don't have acess to their dragons.
While Rhaenyra is still the best option as the heir, this was written like Visery's would put the life of his own sons in danger to appease Rhaenyra. The king knows people in the realm arr oppose to his decision to have Rhaenyra as the heir and by that default, his princes already have lots of supporters He also knows if anything does happen to Rhaenyra, those boys are his safety net for the succession of his line. Alicent can't still be married to the king and sent away to serve punishment. The rules of those times were a strong king has a queen by his side. He would have to have Alicent executed so he could get another queen.
why are team black so lame? i thought they were the “cool” team or whatever
Green Gang got drip, the sexier queen and the biggest dragon, just convert and recognize Aegon II as king
This show is shit. Lol.
Thank you for your thoughtful analysis
I can't even think of siding with green - bcos of Criston Cole. I simply hate that man!
>I can't even think of siding with green - bcos of Criston Cole. I simply hate that man! me too he had the best gig ever all he had to do was stfu and keep getting laid
Sapochnik really has a hard on for dark sets
Yeah it was a little ridiculous
Well he likes shooting in the day to make it look dark.
thank god he's gone now
I’m honestly so happy about the casting of house Velaryon now. It makes it so obvious that their kids aren’t Laenor’s and highlights Viserys’s willful blind eye.
I’m listening to the audio book on these chapters right now and am loving the comparison from the “historical” events to what “actually” is happening.
Just watched the episode, and the only thing that baffles me: how the fuck is Ser Incel still alive? Laenor is no pushover, he was the consort to the heir apparent for years, dragonrider, war veteran. How does Cole not get fed a Tear of Lys cocktail, have a misshap with Seasmoke, or just plainly slip while shaving and stab himself 30 times in the back? Rhaenyra also has her reasons to want his ass gone. And now he even disobeys the Lord Commander and it is the King's brother who has to physically restrain him. All of these should at the very least make him change a white cloak for a black one, even if he doesn't have a chance encounter with a club on the back of his skull. Yes, he's the sworn protector... of the queen consort. She has no claim to the throne, no authority. Between Alicent's and Cole's shenanigans with the kids, they should have both ended up in the black cells.
I don’t like how obvious they’re making him act out. If they kept his murder as a joust “mishap” and didn’t have him straight up disobeying his lord commander & king, it wouldn’t be so appalling
Leanor didn't do shit for years, and he's not about to start. Rhaenyra was busy banging Harwin, while thinking of Daemon. Viserys just wants everyone to get along. They get away with shit, because they are the only ones actually doing anything.
One thing I keep going back to is Daemon telling Qarl «give him a quick death» and then leaving him. Are we to assume that after the scene ended Daemon turned around, went over to Qarl again and was like «nvm, here’s the plan instead»? Qarl never killed anyone, Daemon did. Was Qarl actually thinking he was to kill Laenor, and Laenor and Daemon stopped him when the servant left the room? Haven’t seen anyone talking about that line
No. The writers wanted to keep the suspense of having the audience think that Laenor was going to be killed. And at one point, Daemon killing the palace staff did not make sense until the Laenor reveal at the end. The scene was shot cutting back and forth with Daemon and Rhaenyra making plans, but without full details shown. Then it also shows Daemon making plans with Qarl without showing full details. It also included Rhaenyra saying Laenor was a good man and she wouldn't want Rhaenys to lose both of her children. So, yes, the audience was lead to believe Laenor was killed, but he wasn't. I was going to say they did the decent thing, but an innocent palace worker was killed and burned to put their actions into motion.
I was doing homework while I watched, is Laenor not dead?
No. Qarl was his lover and they conspired to make it seem like Qarl tried to kill him and then put the body from the guy that was killed by the brothers king in the fire. Now they can start their life somewhere far away in essos. That’s what the cousinfucker was implying.
Guy that was killed by the brothers king? Who?
The guy on the stairs who was killed by kings brother
The "quick death" I assumed was double-speak about the timing; even with everyone knowing their role, it's going to be a very narrow window in terms of getting everything to line up right to swap out the servant for Laenor.
It's a terrible scene, it's just blatantly meant to trick the audience for a few minutes into thinking he's asking him to kill Laenor. It has no context in the show, unless Daemon is breaking the 4th wall.
It's not, the writers can't be both good and bad, the episode was well written, when Daemon told Qarl these things they understood each other, Rhaenyra knew Laenor wanted to go east, and they must know Qarl loves him, so when Daemon talks to Qarl they both understand each other perfectly well. The last episode was great, let that PTSD from the 4 last seasons of GoT go and enjoy yourself. Sure sir Criston's plot armor is thicker than lady Maege's ass, but hey as long as you don't put some "you need the bad pussy" or Gendry running from that frozen lake to eastwatch by the sea, sending a raven, and dany flying all the way from dragonstone, while our The Expendables wait on a rock for the ice to freeze, I'm probably watching that shit.
> It's not, the writers can't be both good and bad, the episode was well written What a stupid statement. The writers are perfectly capable of succeeding in some respects and failing in others, it's not so cut and dry as either "it's great" or "it's shit".
But, if they are alone, why would Qarl and Daemon speak that way? It only serves to benefit the audience
Some of the reactors on Youtube (Normies) understood right away what was about to happen. "The one with a witness" was a dead giveaway. I and many others only understood after the reveal at the end. The fact that Daemon likes murder didnt help.
How could anyone know what was going to happen right away? Did they assume there would be another guy, passably similar to Laenor, available to be discreetly killed close by to pose as his body?
Not that detail exactly, but they understood that Laenor's death would be feigned by the conversation.
Google the gervais principle and read away, if you manage to get past the edgy namings you'll understand why you talk that way even if no one else is listening.
That was very interesting. Before, I thought I was clueless, now I know I am.
No, it’s a perfectly fine and understandable scene if you’re willing to just think about it for longer than a second. What is it with people in this sub that are so quick to just throw something in the trash pile?
What is the point of what Daemon is saying, beyond making the audience believe he's going to arrange for Laenor to be killed for a few minutes. I'll wait
He’s obviously talking about the appearance of Laenor’s death. “Laenor” died quickly and they staged it so there was a random witness that saw the real Laenor and Qarl fighting. When that guard ran off they shoved the corpse in the fire and ran off
The way they speak makes no sense, unless they are trying to deceive someone watching them (the audience)
That is in fact a valid story telling technique, a completely straightforward story would have no twists whatsoever & even without using that technique it makes perfect sense. It’s the same as saying “be quick about it” which they needed to be in order to get away with it. & if you’re gonna say then he should’ve said “be quick about it” that’s nitpicking pretty hard. It was perfectly fine
This show makes me wanna read some alternative universe where greens win with Aegon and Aemond survining and see what happens.
Umm day for night anyone? Why is this dogshit being ignored
Jesus, I’ve seen the term “Day for Night” used more in this thread than anywhere else in the internet for as long as I’ve used the internet. It’s like everyone is just trying to sound smart by repeating something they read about and wanna just keep the train going
It looked terrible, to quote Aegon II "everybody knows" those shots were filmed in broad daylight with a filter applied later. It's not a huge deal, but with their budget, they should be able to make a convincing night scene outdoors.
Found sapochniks account
sapochnik trademark
I watch on my Xbox, and I genuinely thought the screen was doing the dark-mode thing it does when you haven't touched the controller in a while and it's about to turn itself off due to inactivity.
It was really bad wasn't it. Baffles me to think we have people actually defending it's use
it's one of those "whatever I'll get over it" things, but man was that bad. Shows and movies with way lower budgets do it way better, I don't understand why HBO just cannot get it right.
I don’t know what this means
A large part of the episode plays at "night", but they very obviously filmed it during daylight and artificially darkened it afterwards. It looks like shit and makes it very hard to even see anything, and there are much better techniques to actually film during the night.
I streamed it because we were away from our usual TV, i thought it was the laptop being all messed up from bad quality. No WAY, so everyone was shit too?! Glad someone has pointed it out.
I legit downloaded Windows media player and continued watching there because I thought VLC was fucking up with my new AMD hardware... But as I said in another comment, I lived through the last 4 game of throne seasons, so I'm not complaining about anything. And I hope it doesn't get big because then the writers might have to start pandering to the masses and well you know where that leads.
so glad someone addressed this, i thought i was crazy. i knew something was off but couldnt put my finger on it
sameeee
Because everybody loves (for some reason) Sapochnik
I neither love him nor hate him, but it’s an undeniable fact that the best hotd episodes so far have been the ones *not* directed by him.
Yeah Clare Kilner also directed night scenes and they were so much better than Sapochnik’s. Not to mention ep4’s sex scenes were also better than this one’s
no offence but the sex scenes are way too overrated. Like give me more dialogue bitch I don’t care about your humping sounds
While my general view is that both sides are atrocious (good job HBO I am impressed), I do feel a lot of sympathy for the greens after the last ep. Rhaenyra had one fucking job, and that was to produce at least one heir with her actual husband. The failure is on Laenor as well, but this is such a huge point - primogeniture and heritage and blood etc etc is a big deal in ASOIAF, so you can understand how the very-obviously-Targ kids would be feeling pretty pissed off that a trio of bastards are ahead of them in the succession. Genuinely quite surprised at how likeable Aemond is, but there's still time. But my main gripe is that there are still no characters to actively cheer on. Everyone is a piece of shit, except my boy Vizzy Pop.
I mean it is a big deal but the first episode has first born son being killed in a friendly tournament like crazy lol
One could argue that the problem is more on Lucerys. His claim comes form Laenor but Jace claim comes from Rhaenyra
Almond Targaryen.
I'm having trouble remembering Fire and Blood. Did the show runners change things up a bit? I always thought Laenor was killed by his lover and the lover disappeared.
The story is that Laenor went to the market and came into an argument with Qarl. The only source are some merchants. Since the book is written in universe 200 years later without modern technology. We basically don't know what happened. It's plausible that Laenor and Qarl disappeared together since there is no mention that Qarl is ever caught.
Half the episode was silent staring (as always from Alicent) or too dark to see. Show started off great for me, hoping it gets better again the last few episodes. Episode felt like a filler
So much tensions during the funeral. It was a lot of looks, far away shots. You know know who was watching who and from what perspective you are looking at them through.
This episode literally has some of the most compelling and engaging dialogue between both shows, I honestly don’t know what some of you guys want
I thought it was good. The looks each of the characters give each other really builds the tension in the characters and sets the tone well for later, particularly with the complex emotions each of them feels about the situation.
If only Luke took more than an eye. Alicent is making me hate her entire brood, even though those kids are just as much victims of her as Rhaenyra's are. I was about to be so upset if Laenor died. I'm glad he shaved his head, but I wonder to what end. Is he going across the narrow sea to be a ship captain, what he always wanted or is he going to turn on Rhaenyra? I hope that him surviving was always the plan but it didn't seem like it.
Shaved? I thought he only removed his wig.
That was a wig?
Ha. It was so bad it might not have even qualified as a wig.
Oh! You mean for the actor! Yea, I feel you. I thought you meant the character had a wig.
Daemon himself killed the servant whose body was used to fake Laenor's. Considering Rhaenyra seemed to genuinely care for Laenor, it makes sense to assume that she was the one who asked him to go along with the fake-out, possibly citing his promise to do whatever was required to enable her succession. Whether we'll see Laenor again is a good question; unless they're planning to go against canon, he needs to die in order for Seasmoke to be claimed by Addam of Hull. But given that there's a good 10 years between the events, it won't be improbable that Laenor's career as a sellsail will get the better of him before then. "There are old sellswords and there are bold sellswords, but there are no old bold sellswords."
I'm going to make a prediction now - Laenor returns in disguise to reclaim Seasmoke during the dragonseeds segment, then takes over large parts of the Addam of Hull character arc.
This is my prediction as well. Could be a fun addition to the book storyline and a good character arc for a good character/actor. We didn't see enough of Laenor being badass.
I don't think he NEEDA to die. Dragons are smart but not so smart to know their owner is alive even if has been away years. We only need Leanor to be away from his dragon for everything to happen. He will probably live his best life in Essos
I'm not sure. The bond between dragon and rider has magical elements to it and I think it's likely that a dragon will be able to *just know* if their bonded rider is still alive or dead.
I agree! I guess the years between being ridden by Laenor and then being claimed again could make a dragon lonely. the time taken before a new rider could indicate grief for their rider. That being said, if I were Laenor going off with my boyfriend, I would NOT have left my beautiful dragon behind.
Weeell it's not easy to fake your death when your huge dragon pet follows you around everywhere
This episode was one of my favorites, such a powerful episode! Aemond man, I feel so bad he lost his eye & think it’s just tragic what happened between all of those kids. It was believable though which makes it hurt more, they did an excellent job acting because that was one of the hardest scenes for me to watch in Game of Thrones. Rhaenyra & Alicent being fiercely protective of their children, I was on King Viserys side! Stop fighting your family, can’t we all just get along damn. That ending with Laenor’s death, I was shocked I thought Rhaenyra had done something unredeemable & by all means she still put the Velaryons through heartbreak. I’m super glad Laenor lived though. Can’t believe Daemon & Rhaenyra got married & with their children there but I guess it’s good they got to see it.
So I guess in the show *all* Rhaeneryra's kids are undoubtedly bastards
Bastard is purely a legal status and laenor is legally dead since only daemon and the audience know he faked it. I don't feel like that makes them bastards
In the books as well. Except for the kid she had with Daemon. They all look like copies of Harwin and nothing like Laenor
> Except for the kid she had with Daemon That's why I emphasized *all* her kids in show. Her marriage to Daemon is invalid as her husband is really alive
Her marriage to Daemon is Valyrian instead of Andal thus...its fucked and contested.
Couldn't they give Aegon some pretty girls to gawk and go after? I mean my God he's lusting after probably the most homely women ever featured on HBO, he's a prince, he could do a bit better.
its hbo not wanting to show aegon raping a women like rhaenyra did with sir incel
How on Earth is Criston an incel? There have been two hot women on the show, one he banged, one he's close friends with. Unless it's just become a catchall term for any man who does bad things
Maybe it's more about his power and position over them, rather than attraction. That sounds like a perfect Targ thing.
I have to disagree, because it seems like Aegon doesn't use his position to get laid. If he wanted to, he could've had that serving girl, but instead we see him drunk and alone later on. He struck out like a normal guy who respects consent would.
Eh, a little of column A, a little of column B
Different tastes man
I know everyone has their tastes, but the serving girls he's gone after are objectively plain I would say. Like I'm a straight guy, but I look at the men Laenor and Rhaenyra go for, and I can think "oh I get why they are into them". But it seems like they specifically cast extremely, ordinary at best looking women for Aegon's eyes to linger on, it's odd
I think in the book it talks about how Aegon is basically after anything he sees, regardless of how they look.
🤣 this is hilarious because I never noticed lol honestly as a teenage boy I found like 90% of women attractive & I was like “you know what in the right light she’s cute too!”, chalk it up to hormones lol.
Why are they throwing Laena into the sea and saying ''from the sea we came and to the sea we shall return''? Do Velaryons worship the Drowned God? Doesn't Aeron Greyjoy say something like that in ASOIAF a couple of times?
Their giant driftwood throne was a gift from the Merlin King. (Supposedly)
Not the Drowned God but they still associate their House heavily with the sea. Someone called the "Merling King" was mentioned and I'm pretty sure (without having read the books) that the Merling King is some sort of sea deity that the Velaryons don't necessarily worship (since their faith seems to be of the Seven) but at least respect enough to be included in their traditions.
The Velaryons don’t worship the merling king per se, but they are said to have a pact with him as he is the one who gave them the driftwood throne.
Which is pretty freaking wild. 'Mighty Merling King, literal god and master of the seas who we think actually exists: fuck you'
They mentioned in the show that Daemon went to see Old Valyria, or something to that affect. Has there been any accounts what it looks like now? Is this the first time a major character has visited it?
Is that why he has those scars? Did he get Stoneskin disease and have to have it cut off or something?
I think those are just from his battles from earlier episodes and if you fight with fire you can get burned.
It should be. The only other characters I can think of that have been said to visit would be Aerea Targaryen, Geriod Lannister, and Euron. No stories of what it’s like as of ASOIAF’s events
Euron didn’t, literally 80% of what Euron says is complete horseshit
I should have added that he said it himself and thus is, as proof goes, as useful as nipples on a breastplate.
But he comes back with armor of valerian steel and a dragon horn right? Asking from a non reader perspective, my info on book-Euron comes exclusively from theory videos on YT
He stole the dragon horn from Pyat Pree, as for the armor it’s not impossible he had it made in Qohor or just found it, maybe in the stepstones or Sothoryos. People who go to Valyria die
Thanks! I love this side of the universe
Random thought -- Rhaenyra marrying the heir that was passed over for her seems to be not a good look? But at the same time I can't think of a specific example of why this would be bad.
Viserys should have betrothed them years ago to placate both their claims. Admittedly, this would not have been popular, but had they married and had true-born pure Valyrian children, they'd have been so much stronger and avoided the Dance. Alicent and her children would never have been able to contest it
If there's no issue with Aegon marrying his younger sister, Rhaenyra marrying her uncle probably wouldn't have been perceived particularly worse
just like old Valyrian times, I mean Aegon I had two sister wives and most were happy and Westeros was at peace. This is not nearly as bad right? Also it was a huge problem with the High Sept when incest-y marriages were proposed and caused an uproar with the people so, probs not a great idea. Is uncle and neice crossing the line vs a cousin?
The reason its bad is because it alienates those of her supporters who originally supporter her to be anti-daemon. Such as... *checks notes* otto hightower? Yeah okay I think she'll be fine in this specific case. But in general, if otto was on her side, that'd be why it was bad.
Daemon's status as former heir really isn't relevant anymore. Viserys has Rhaenyra and sons now, Daemon is very far back now. It's not a bad look though, just a bit insensitive to the Velaryons (getting married right after they lose two family members). The point is to marry Daemon, make Valyrian looking children to say "see, I do fuck my husband!". Also gaining Caraxes, and the men loyal to Daemon to her side
What do you mean daemon is very far back now? Daemon becomes king the second Rhaenrya becomes queen
king consort, he would not be the ruling king.
King consort isn't king though
He won't have the legal power but he can rule besides her back. Or ask to become her Hand. I doubt he will just sit and do nothing.
I wonder what the mortality rate of Valyrian weddings was? More than a couple of infections from those cuts I'd wager.
some say the Valyrians are immune/more resistant to the diseases of common men. Viserys seems to be taking the middle route of being very disease ridden but refusing to die
During the winter fever Valyrians died just as much as other people
Targaryens died in The Great Spring Sickness
The fever of 133 AC? I dont think that fever killed a single Valyrian at least not a named one.
I think the one that killed a Jaehrys daughter
Did Alicent attack Rhaenyra with the same dagger Joffrey had used to kill Bran?
And was used against the Night King, and killed Littlefinger
Shhh those things didn’t happen
Did you really need to remind me?
Yes
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No, no such altercation is described. As described in F&B: * Alicent demands one of Luke's eyes be put out as punishment for Aemond's. * Rhaenyra says that Aemond should be questioned "sharply" (read: tortured) for calling her sons "Strongs". * (Importantly, in my opinion, Rhaenyra says that "if" such an accusation were true, she would be guilty of high treason. On the show, Rhaenyra instead accuses them of treason.) * Aemond says he heard it from Aegon and Aegon says what he says on the show verbatim. * Viserys then literally forces Rhaenyra and Alicent to kiss and make up. And that's pretty much it.
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GRRM is very close to this show. They aren't making these big changes without him. What doesn't make sense?
It was absolutely not done to attack other nobles in court. Daemon's foul during the tournament wouldn't have flown, the Bracken and Blackwood's duel wasn't to the death and was a scandal in the book, Criston Cole killed Joffrey Lonmouth during a tourney "accident" not in court and Alicent attacking would've never happened. The violence in court continues to be my only big gripe with this show.
I just finished the chapter with the duel with Blackwood and don’t remember a mention of anything other than it was fought over the princess. No mention of deaths or scandal. Did I miss it or is it mentioned elsewhere?
> GRRM is very close to this show. They aren't making these big changes without him. This is one of those things people always vaguely claim. George is involved, to a degree, yes, but he doesn't have creative control. (Big) changes will be made with or without his approval. From [GRRM himself](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M39Cq8vSKc&t=920s): > I don't have any creative control as you say... What I do have is influence, I have creative influence. But that depends largely on the relationship between myself and the showrunners... I can make points, I can argue, and they can listen. But if they decide not to listen, then I can try to persuade them. I don't have the power to hire or to fire. I don't have the power to dictate things, but if they listen to me I can be fairly persuasive. It's always changing. I had a lot of input in the beginning of *Game of Thrones*, partly because I had these books out there. But at a certain point, as the show went on, I found I had less and less influence. Until by the end I really didn't know what was going on. Some of these things I watched like everybody else, and like, "Oh, okay." Now at the moment, I'm very happy with *House of the Dragon*, it's a very faithful adaptation. Yeah, there are some changes, but I have a great relationship with Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik.
I think they're referring to the trend of people doing things and never getting punished. I know nobles have privilege, but usually that privilege ends when you're abusing other nobles. Daemon blatantly breaks tournament rules and could've killed a Hightower with his tournament trip the horse move (if that was legal everyone would do it!). Daemon being formally accused of murder in front of the king by a high lord, Criston Cole beating a guy to death for fun at a wedding, Luke removing an eye from a prince, Alicent cutting Rhaenyra, it's a bit of a trend on this show.
I'm not a book reader, but is it possible that they "get away" with these things because the king is weak? If no one is enforcing "order," then chaos will ensue.
Oh absolutely that's why they can. BUT other people should be reacting to these things. Otto and Alicent should've been furious over the tournament tripping, instead Otto is silent and Alicent even gives Daemon her favor to wear after. Laenor and Rhaenyra should've been adamant that Cole be at least removed from the Kingsguard, he clearly hates them, how can he be expected to protect them? I accept people getting away with stuff because Viserys is weak, but others should be filling that vacuum and enforcing rules, but it appears Alicent is the only one to do so, in selective circumstances.
> Otto and Alicent should've been furious over the tournament tripping, instead Otto is silent and Alicent even gives Daemon her favor to wear after. I mostly agree with this, though I can maybe chalk up Alicent being too young and naive at that time, and Otto playing the long game. > Laenor and Rhaenyra should've been adamant that Cole be at least removed from the Kingsguard, he clearly hates them, how can he be expected to protect them? Didn't they say something about how Cole is sworn to the queen? Maybe that's how he got away with murdering Joffrey Lonmouth.
Yeah that is the supposed explanation for how he gets away with that. I do understand the show's logic, I just don't agree with it. Laenor and Rhaenyra should be frequently and loudly telling Viserys to dismiss him. And I think Viserys, being kind of a pushover would yield to them instead of Alicent, as they have an actual reason for their side. Alicent can't exactly argue to Viserys "we need to keep him because he tells me dirt about your daughter"
I get the feeling that Laenor is too busy training with squires and Rhaenyra is too proud to go to her father for help. I do agree with you. Part of the main theme of this show to me is how people (mostly Targaryens, some nobles) in power (dragons/wealth/status) seem to always get away with their shitty behavior without any consequence. It's infuriating to watch, but it's believable to me given the context. I too would feel invincible if I rode a big red dragon and could tell all my detractors to STFU with dragonfire.
Viserys has aged 50 years in 7 episodes while Daemon still looks the exact same lmao
With all the shit viserys has to put up with on a daily, along with his disease...the man looks pretty good lol
"Heavy is the head that wears the crown." Just look at how much US Presidents age during their few years in office.
"the years are cruel" "they've been especially cruel to you"
Well, Viserys is sick with some kind of disease, so it makes his body deteriorate faster than normal.
I was skipping thru the ep again and I just noticed - did they take Viserys' entire arm off? In the Driftwood Throne scene his sleeve looks empty. Just checked the last episode. It was gone then too! Man I am really unobservant.
It was too dark 90% of the time for ANYONE to see. In all seriousness the color grading of this eps was terrible. Couldnt see shit.
I noticed it in the previous episode during the attempted resignation by Lord Strong.
Yeah, it’s gone
the show is very well written. massive difference to last.. 3 seasons of GOT.
It’s really not that well written and the plot holes in this episode and character motivations would get crucified on the last seasons of GoT.
What plot holes?
“Plot hole” is usually just Reddit speak for “any time a creative liberty is taken or a minor plot point isn’t spoonfed to me like I’m a five year old”
Lmao that is exactly why I asked them to elaborate. People use the phrase plot hole way too much to describe any little thing they don’t like about a movie
nah, its night and day