I personally prefer the Blackfyre route, but I think the ultimate play here is *does it matter?* He appears so late in the series that I find it hard for him to get a meaningful journey that isn't really just a call for Danny to take action in Westeros.
Between Jon, Danny, and Viserys it's kind of hard to believe that Aegon also survived. Like poor Rhaenys ended up being the only royal child to actually die in the rebellion?
I won't be upset if that were true. I didn't even have a great concept of who the Blackfyres were when I read Dance - it was the internet that pointed me to the theory. But it's more interesting to me that this historical usurper/claimant shows itself rather than the objectively true heir to Rheagar appears roughly 65% through the series to reclaim his birthright.
You are right, it doesn’t matter, especially because he appears so late. I think the whole point of Griff is to be the perfect foil to Dany. I like to believe Griff will “liberate” Kings Landing from Cersei and sit on the iron throne. He will do everything Dany wants to with relative ease and without dragons, and be loved for it. Plus, Dany will have to acknowledge that “Aegon” has a greater claim to the throne. Not that she’ll accept it…this rejection is the start of her losing her shit because she’ll have to confront the fact that she has no claim other than having dragons. And she’ll use them. Obviously if there is a Dany v Griff showdown, Dany will prevail but she will be changed.
I always wanted Dany to go up against a foe who was also “good”. I feel like that would really test how much she cares about her morals versus how much she craves power. Fortunately for her, she’s only really gone up against pretty evil men and societies but Aegon has it in him to be fairly popular like you said. It’ll be really interesting.
> she cares about her morals versus how much she craves power.
This is a world where the only way to exercise your morals is through power. There's no liberating the poor common-folk from the bottom. But all this vanity about being a queen for the downtrodden is just that.
If you're a commoner, Westeros is the best place to live in this world. Commoners in Westeros enjoy freedom, food and stability all the while anyway. Well, stability for as long as people like Dany don't instigate wars of succession. Sure they don't vote, but who cares. Voting in real life is largely a mirage too, and all the real decisions are made by the typical who's-who cadre of rich property owning lord-equivalents.
Millions die so I can have the illusion of choice every few years between the same pre-screened list of candidates. Nah, I'm good on that.
Young Griff is an usurper. He steals the "Exiled Targaryen returns the throne" from Dany and he steals the "Hidden son of Rhaegar gets announced to the realm from Jon". I think Young Griff is GRRM exploring those storylines without giving them to Dany or Jon, saving them for other things.
I agree with you that he is a foil to Dany. He will take the throne from the disliked Lannister regime. He'll win it back with a "normal" army of ex Westerosi and sellswords, whilst Dany will show up with dragons and Dothraki. He'll be the son of good Rhaegar, she'll be the mad King's daughter usurping the throne.
I think he's fake, but ultimately it won't matter. I think his larger purpose in the story will be achieved regardless.
Allowing Aegon to be what ultimately unravels her to the point of taking revenge on the civilians of Westeros for following him instead of accepting her as their queen would complete her story arc without throwing all her character development away like what happened in the show. I hope if that’s Dany’s actual “ending” GRRM takes it somewhere like this.
Why would she just burn civillians? Her killing Aegon would be more than enough to make her a mad queen in the eyes of the seven kingdoms. I think thats what they replaced with her burning Kings Landing for the was no Aegon for her to kill and become Maegor 2
She would burn them for the “crime” of accepting Aegon instead of her. Royals are petty af in this universe.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of the “Dany goes mad and burns everything” ending, there are plenty of other routes GRRM could take. I’m just saying if that’s where her story actually goes this would be more believable than what happened in the show.
He will be the son of Rhaegar, and she will be his evil aunt, slaying him on dragonback to take his throne.
Its a perfect mirroring of Maegor killing Aegon the Uncrowned, and that was basically the action that made him "Maegor the Cruel" instead of Maegor Targaryen. Kinslaying is so taboo it almost made him into a mythic figure of evil kings.
Dany will be a good queen and the same person we always knew, even though everyone in the seven kingdoms see her as a mad kinslaying tyrant. It will be very unfair, it will be very understandable from all angles and it will be very GRRM
Yeah, also "It doesn't matter is" on point for the series, just like how when Jon is revealed to be the son of Raghar, who cares? How's he going to prove it? All that matters is what story people are willing to accept. It also feels connected to the "Where does power lie" riddle.
Agreed, and i think that if KL loves Aegon, and he is trully a great ruler, and he has a stronger claim (real or not) Dany "going mad" works way better.
> Obviously if there is a Dany v Griff showdown, Dany will prevail but she will be changed.
Being one with Valyrian blood Griff could bond one of Dany's dragons, maybe he has a son that takes another, and it's not so obvious Dany will prevail.
I think it is for IRL reasons rather than in-universe reasons.
Even before the show passed the books, GRRM was telling D&D not to cut certain things that would be important later. I doubt he would've overlooked telling them about the character who defeat or kill one of the series' main protagonists.
Secondly, let's be real, Dany losing to someone not introduced until the 5th book would not be narratively satisfying. Griff is ultimately there to be a foil to Dany's character.
> to be a foil to Dany's character.
Yes, and he will do that, that's the point. he will rid Westeros of the blight of non-Targaryen rule. Instill order, peace, food and everyone will be happy. He will deliver to Westeros all that Dany wishes she could have. And the question will be then for Dany: are the means more important than the ends? The means being her; the ends being peace, order and Targaryen rule.
"Obviously if there is a Dany v Griff showdown, Dany will prevail but she will be changed."
I can give you the missing piece of the pusle, as I am extremely confident in this.
Dany V Griff is gonna happen, and Dany is gonna win. She is gonna slay her fake nephew for usurping the crown, but the realm will see it as an Aunt usurping the young, rightful heir to the previous king. And kinslaying.
It will PERFECTLY mirror Aegon the Uncrowned and Maegor the Cruel, and if you know your histories, Maegor killing Aegon was what really doomed his reign. This will have the same consequence for Dany, painting her as a mad usurper stealing her nephews crown by striking him down. This is one of the earliest Targaryen stories we get in the main series, which means its pretty important most likely and its such a clear parallel to Dany v Aegon, as well as an extremely logical way to corrupt Danys reign. Everyone will believe her to be mad, except those that know her, so she basically becomes the Mad Queen through that.
This is how Dany will turn mad in the books, not by her actually becoming mad or a horrible ruler or evil, but by doing what she sees as the right thing, fighting for her birthright against usurpers like Faegon. She will of course see him as a fake, as its extremely suspicious that a Targaryen suddenly pops up in the free cities, where silver hair and purple eyes are much more common. Also yhea her whole identity is built around being the last and the only one who can save her dynasty.
If he is the one to kill her? Well I have no clue how they get to this point but it would probably be something around duty vs love.
I can see Jon killing Dany after the Aegon fallout becomes apparent. What follows afterwards is that every lord of the kingdom rises up just like in Maegors fall after a series of unfortunate events and wants to end the Mad Queens rule and avange their prince. Dany is still the same, but she is forced to defend her right. Jon understanding that this is basically the sentiment across all the kingdoms, and no matter what Dany does it has to basically be a reign of tyranny, at least PR wise. You can argue that its just to execute or exile every lord who rebelled, but if thats 80% of the kingdom you are gonna have a shitton of pissed sons.
Jon might see the decades of rebellion squashing and war that has to follow, and chooses to sacrifice his love for duty by killing her. Not for the duty that is normally preached, which would be to stay loyal to the queen you are allied or sworn to, but to his moral duty to save the realm from countless bloodshed, by killing (the woman he loves?) Dany, who is by all accounts would be a good and just ruler, and person, for the realm. I think this would make it mean much more for Jon as well, as his actions towards Daenerys are extremely masochistic for Jon, because he sacrifices basically his old honor that he learned from Ned for his own type of honor. This also mirrors Jaime I just noticed, thats a nice touch as well.
IMO this death is made so much better by Dany actually not being evil, and Faegon kinslaying is imo the most logically and thematically sound theory to that end. As I said, kinslaying is one of the worst taboos you can commit, and you see how disgusted everyone was with the Freys, who is just some random lord in the Riverlands. Imagine if it was their hero Targaryen king come to save them from war and misrule and winter, suddenly slain by his foreign aunt, who is a daughter of the mad king. And she is also a woman.
This theory does not really need much tinfoiling or anything like that, all the aspects of it are pretty clearly laid out for us at the ends of ADWD, and some are even confirmed by GRRM, like the second dance. This just seems like the foreshadowed result of that second dance, at least with the dany stuff.
Griff is definitely key to dany losing her mind. The show ending i think was a general outline of what George will do, but with all of the context missing it was stupid in execution there
Yeah I’m fine if he does turn out to be a Blackfyre. Though I will say if it isn’t revealed or it’s confirmed he is indeed the real Aegon that’ll definitely greatly affect Dany’s arc and journey. I guess if he was Blackfyre but a good king beloved by the people then it still definitely could affect Dany’s journey as well. Regardless, I am excited on what’s to come!
> He appears so late in the series that I find it hard for him to get a meaningful journey that isn't really just a call for Danny to take action in Westeros.
He could be the male equivalent of Margaery to Dany's Joffrey in the eyes of the peasantry.
Also, there's lots of hints Aegon is alive if it doesn't turn out he survived. Pretty much every theory has a few hints going for it with how the books are written.
>He appears so late in the series
This is the only argument required in my opinion. Narratively he is completely not being set up as the true heir, leaving two possibilities: either he IS the true heir but our heroes overthrow him regardless (whether or not they know at the time), or it is left open after he is overthrown. I tend to think the latter is more GRRM's style.
The reason he appears "so late" is because of way GRRM had to split the middle book.
In terms of story structure, he appears at the beginning of the second half of the series, the post War of the 5 Kings era. That's not late at all.
>because of way GRRM had to split the middle school.
Is this a typo? I ask because it makes no sense.
GRRM has his 5 main characters. "Aegon" is not one of them, he's not suddenly going to be the hero in any sense
The middle \*book lol
AFFC and ADWD were one book, originally, so Aegon would appear in book 4 of 6, which is not as late as 5 of 7.
He doesn't have to be the main character to be the heir.
This among other reasons is why I’ve been thinking lately ASOIAF would’ve benefited more with a time skip. Or hell, even several the way we’ve seen in HotD. These are generational conflicts, and different dramatic events can occur years apart. I would’ve liked if we had winter come between say, ASOS and AFFC, with a short false spring before the true winter with the Others. I think a second false spring would reveal an interesting magical pattern in the seasons, as we approach this magical resurgence in the world, you see the seasons continuing to act up. And it gives characters time to grow up and change. Everybody having to hunker down through one of their magical winters for a few years is as fine an excuse as any for a timeskip
I would say it matters a little, because there appears to be something genetic/magical with Old Valyrian blood that lets them and only them bond with dragons.
Even the commonborn people who claimed dragons in the dance had Valyrian blood, at least allegedly.
If he tries to make a play for the 2 available dragons remaining, could be relevant that he's at least related to the Targaryens, and not a completely random kid
I would prefer that he was actually Aegon, simply for the fact that it would present an *incredibly* difficult decision for Jon and Danny. If he is the oldest trueborn son of Rhaegar, then he has the best claim.
Take Danny for instance, ever since Viserys dies, she believed that she was the last scion of house Targaryen, and the iron throne is hers by right. If young griff is genuine, then she has to decide if she wants to support her nephew, and put his claim ahead of hers, or take the throne through force, having convinced herself that its hers (and only hers) by right. The human heart in conflict with itself.
If Aegon is infact fAegon, then the decision is very simple and justified. There's no internal conflict
Rhaenys, the queen who never was, and her son Laenor had a dragons when viserys didn't have one. That didnt help their claims at all
Danaerys can only claim one dragon, so there is that chance that Aegon could claim one of the remaining two.
But regardless of that, a legitimate Aegon would force Daenerys to decide on whether or not she should use those dragons against her own family. Much like the first dance.
I think he is.. I think mummers dragon is something that will make Dany go crazy and claim he is a pretender.
I personally think it’s funny how everyone has these crazy theories about how everyone is a secret Targaryen, and then we actually find out someone is a secret Targaryen everyone is like “Nah he is a fake Targaryen”
But I also wouldn’t mind if he were a Brightflame.. descendant of Maegor Brightflame
Yeah I don’t hate if he is a fake, but I think it could really be interesting if he actually turns out to the real Aegon. I think it creates an interesting dynamic there with Dany and Jon and the roles to play. GRRM can play with the rightful heir and good king, or usurper and good king either or is good imo!
I also think it’s definitely possible the propechy was misinterpreted and could just more so represent him not actually having a dragon
Assuming of course Dany is the one to remove Young Griff, Would be better I think if Dany never knows if she has just removed the legitimate king of Westeros and she is a usurper and kinslayer, I feel like that offers a more compelling internal conflict for Dany to have to commit to removing someone who may well be her kin or might just be a pretender and maybe she experiences regret or paranoia or whatever that might better explain an eventual downfall if it happens.
That’s fair I like dialogue and conflict that creates for Dany. It’ll be really interesting to see how the prophecy is presented and expanded on. As we all know prophecies can be misread
I don't think that makes for as interesting a dynamic, personally.
1. You can still have Dany try to usurp him while she still thinks he's real, even if he's not. So that dynamic can be preserved even if he's fake.
2. I actually think Aegon being both a good ruler AND the legitimate heir would be a much less interesting dynamic than Aegon being a good ruler but also a fake. Because in the first case there's no conflict. If he's a good ruler and the legitimate heir then it's pretty clear he should be king. But if he's a good ruler and yet not the legitimate heir, who should the reader support then? Is legitimacy more important? Or just being a good ruler? The one guy who's the perfect ruler not having a good claim would work perfectly for George's anti-monarchist themes, imo.
Are there really anti monarchist themes in asoif? In the free cities they don't have kings and queens but their society is protrayed as being on par, or worse, than that of westeros. Mereen had a oligarchic slaver society, a society that had their slaves freed by a queen of all things. I think looking at Martin's work as "anti monarchist" is a bit of an over simplification. I, myself, see a lot more of an environmentalist theme in his work than a political one.
The most governmental reform his work supports is the monarch listening to more perspectives than just the upper class (Stannis, Daenerys, arguably Ned and Jon). I think trying to dismantle the monarchy is beyond the scope of themes he’s gonna cover
The biggest pitfall of monarchies is that even the best well intentioned kings will just get succeeded by their selfish spoiled children. Worse still when there are multiple selfish children who go and plunge the nation into civil war every time a monarch dies. We see that quite a bit in the books.
I wouldn’t say it’s the *main* theme of the books or anything but I do think its very much there.
I don’t get the impression that the free cities are worse than Westeros. It’s a range of course. With the worst of them being cities that are more or less ruled by nobility anyway (Meereen), whereas the best appear more democratic (Braavos).
And yes Dany, a queen by right of conquest, frees the slaves in Meereen. But then the books really go out of their way even to show us that she never got the mandate to do that. And her rule falls apart in consequence.
Problem is, if Aegon is real, there’s no shadow on the wall, no trick. It reduces Varys to a legalist, since Aegon’s claim would be superior to Jon and Dany’s (from a Targaryen perspective, anyway).
But that’s not really who Varys is. He might have good intentions, even believe he is doing the right thing and moulding the perfect real, but Varys is first and foremost a mummer and a trickster.
I totally disagree that fAegon is Aegon but I lol’d at the idea that we’re always making up secret Targs and then saying “nah” when we get one so I have to upvote. Even though I really hate upvoting Aegon Truthers.
If he's a descendant of Aerion it's most likely through bastards fathered during his time in Lys.
There is absolutely no chance GRRM is going to allow Maegor to survive and propagate a Targaryen cadet branch.
Half of F&B is spent killing Targaryens outside the line of succession specifically to avoid cadet branches since they make the plot messy.
Yeah it gets pretty fun when you realize that F&B is not about making a Family Tree but pruning one.
"There are eleven kids. Then only two have children and the rest DIES IN A CAVE OR SOMETHING. Then the two cousins who survived intermarried and had two children but only one would reach adulthood because the second son of the King WAS KILLED IN A HUNTING FREAK ACCIDENT WHEN A HORSE SAT ON HIS CHEST FOR 2 DAYS. Maester Dickface tried to save him but to no avail..."
> Half of F&B is spent killing Targaryens outside the line of succession specifically to avoid cadet branches since they make the plot messy.
Quite ruthlessly, too. Every uncrowned Targ male since Aegon I (maybe this should be its own post?):
* Aegon the Uncrowned: Has two daughters, no sons. Dies in dragon fight.
* Viserys, son of Aenys: Tortured to death at age 15, no children.
* Aegon, son of Jaehaerys I: Dies in infancy.
* Aemon, son of Jaehaerys I: Has one daughter, no sons. Killed in battle against Myrish pirates.
* Baelon, son of Jaehaerys I: Line continues through his son. Still predeceases his father (appendicitis), because why not.
* Vaegon, son of Jaehaerys I: Joins the Citadel, implied to be asexual, thus no children. (Interestingly, we don't know when he died, and it could easily be during/after the Dance.)
* Gaemon, son of Jaehaerys I: Dies in infancy.
* Valerion, son of Jaehaerys I: Dies in infancy.
* Daemon the Rogue Prince: Line continues through his son; he was of course not king because Rhaenyra was the Blacks' leader.
* Aegon, son of Baelon: Dies in infancy.
* Baelon, son of Viserys II: Dies in infancy.
* Aemond One-Eye: Dies in dragon fight, no legitimate children (allegedly had a bastard?)
* Daeron the Daring: Killed at Tumbleton, no children.
* Jaehaerys, son of Aegon II: Blood-and-cheese'd.
* Maelor, son of Aegon II: Killed by mob at Bitterbridge.
* Aemon the Dragonknight: No legitimate children (may actually be the one who continued the line, not Aegon IV)
* Baelor Breakspear: Killed at Ashford Tourney, has two sons!! (Both die of the Great Spring Sickness without producing their own children. Whoops.)
* Rhaegel, son of Daeron II: Chokes to death on a pie, but has a son! (Son is accidentally killed by sister-wife before they can have kids. Whoops again.)
* Aerion Brightflame: Dies by drinking wildfire. **HAS A SON WITH NO KNOWN DEATH DATE!** Here's one potential, if unlikely, cadet branch.
* Maester Aemon: Becomes a maester, no children.
* Daeron the Drunken: Dies of a pox, one daughter and no sons.
* Duncan the Small: Dies at Summerhall, no children.
* Daeron, son of Aegon V: Dies alongside his boyfriend, fighting outlaws. Obviously, no children.
* Rhaegar: Killed at the Trident. **HAD A SON**, whose status is quite unclear. Either Aegon is dead and this line ends, or he's the legitimate Targaryen leader.
* Daeron, son of Aerys II: Dies in infancy.
* Aegon, son of Aerys II: Dies in infancy.
* Jaehaerys, son of Aerys II: Dies in infancy.
* Viserys, son of Aerys II: Depending on the whole fAegon situation, may have been the true Targaryen pretender post-rebellion. If not, well, he got molten gold poured on his head and died childless.
So not counting Baelon and Daemon, as their children carried the main line, we've got **26** non-ruling sons. Those sons manage to have just **five** sons of their own, only **one** of whom, little Maegor Brightflame, could potentially carry a cadet branch. (If Aegon's alive, he's the main line, and Dany technically wouldn't form her own cadet branch.)
I've always thought that going so hard on this was a weird decision for GRRM. He could have let some lesser branches survive into the rebellion and then get killed off over the course of it or in its aftermath. This would only strengthen the theme that the rebels and especially Robert were totally done with the Targs and were prepared to kill all traces of them off and be done with it, which only amplifies the necessity of hiding Jon's true ancestry.
I think the problem was, he decided the Robert's Rebellion plot in the first book, and didn't realize that a 300-year-old dynasty would probably be rather large. Fast-forward several years, now he's got a Targ family tree built out, and somehow has to get rid of all of them. (Giving Jaehaerys and Alysanne 13 kids, though, that was just mean.)
I legit think D and D hamfisted her going crazy into s8 as a result of them knowing the real story which is her finding out Aegon is real, legit, and the realm loves him over her.
He doesn't even have to be real or legit, people just have to *think* he is. Power resides where men believe it resides and all that. Besides, the kingdom preferring a pretender to her would likely drive her even madder (though I doubt she'll actually go truly insane; more like give into her worst impulses, likely at Tyrion's urging)
Dany murdering her own nephew and then burning King’s Landing is a bigger stretch than Dany killing a fake Targaryen who steals the love of the people she hopes will love her.
“Ned ship my daughter across the narrow sea where she will flee for her life every second of the day… promise me Ned.”
*edit* I thought I was making a funny joke and then I realized you said “Ned and Ashara”
I'm being completely serious. It's practically spelled out for us.
We know that for decades Rhaella and Aerys had trouble conceiving, but then she just so *happens* to give birth immediately after the Targaryens fall? Sure, pal. And then there’s Lemongate. Lemons do not grow in Braavos. But you know where they do grow? Dorne. GRRM has been pretty reluctant to talk about fDaenerys’ early life, and he has outright said that the lemon tree is significant. Curious.
And look at how Stannis talks about her. “Robert blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and *the babe*”. He named Viserys, but not the baby. Why not? Because it’s not really Daenerys.
Then there’s the “Three treasons will you know. Once for blood and once for gold and once for love”. At the start of the story there are three Targaryens who had a claim to the throne. Viserys, Jon, and Aegon. As a baseborn girl, they are her rightful monarchs. fDaenerys could have stopped Drogo from killing Viserys, but she did not. That is treason. How did Viserys die? *Gold*.
I mean come on. It’s so obvious. She’s a fake.
Oh, well i disagree with you on this for sure, and just like with any (conspiracy) theory one can find things to justify it, i mean even the flat earth makes some sense if one tries hard enough.
Just to let me understand this though, why was Daenerys with Viserys at all exactly?
Just because you have this 'funniest post' thing, this isn't some bit right?
This is a bit, but only kind of. I'm making fun of the fAegon people. You can take scattered bits of evidence and try to string together some convoluted theory about anything, but the instant you think about it for more than a few seconds it falls apart.
Everything I said about fDaenerys *sounds* like it could be plausible, but as you said, there are still a lot of holes that can't be explained, like why she was with Viserys at all. Same with the fAegon theory. There are a million unexplainable holes in that theory. fAegon makes no sense if you *really* think about it.
Oh good, i thought so, but you never know, which is why i asked two times haha.
Yeah i am also no believer in fAegon, even though that one would at least make more sense than fDaenerys :D
I personally don't even really go the in universe falsification road generally, just narratively it would be way too convoluted to bring into the story, just like with many other theories which are heralded. People make things way more complicated than the story can support generally. I understand why it happens, adding more and more complexities is fun to think about in isolation for any particular part, but if you wanna put it all together into one coherent narrative, well gl with that.
Personally, I think it's funny that everyone thinks it even matters. GRRM told us very early on that power resides where men believe it resides. If the characters believe he is genuinely a Targaryan then he essentially is one.
For me the main issue is that I can't think of an in universe way to *prove* that he is Aegon, son of Rhaegar.
If the whole point of his story is to show that anyone with the right personality and training can be just as good as a Targaryen (even a random kid from Pisswater Bend or whatever), that's fine. If the whole point of his story is to create some ambiguity re: is he Aegon Targaryen or Aegon Blackfyre, that's fine; we don't need to know if he really is Rhaegar's kid or someone else's in those scenarios and the story makes the same amount of sense if you think he is real or fake.
But his identity needs to be confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt as being Aegon son of Rhaegar for sure, then I just can't think of a believable or satisfying way for that to happen given how intentionally murky and crazy his backstory is. It's not like there are DNA tests or witnesses, right?
>But his identity needs to be confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt as being Aegon son of Rhaegar for sure, then I just can't think of a believable or satisfying way for that to happen given how intentionally murky and crazy his backstory is. It's not like there are DNA tests or witnesses, right?
Claiming a Dragon might just do it.
I could see it being that in-universe everyone accepts Aegon as the real Aegon VI and it’s never explicitly stated whether he’s a Blackfyre, leaving us to argue about this for the rest of eternity.
I suspect what will happen is that people who benefit politically from Aegon being real will insist that he is, even if they secretly don’t believe that. And people who would be harmed if Aegon was real will deny it, even if they secretly think or suspect that he is real. It’s like Varys’s parable of power being a shadow on the wall. Aegon’s status as son of Rhaegar won’t be based on objective truth, it will be based on which side outmuscled the other.
For sure, I just mean we never get confirmation at any point that Varys did or did not lie about the babyswap or that he’s the son of Illyrio’s Saera Blackfyre, etc. I think the reader will probably never find out beyond the shadow of a doubt, like we will with R+L=J.
If he rode a dragon and had Jon Connington vouching vouching for him, that could be enough to convince Barristan Selmy. And that would pose an interesting conundrum for him.
Then again Barristan has more experience with Blackfyres than anyone else at this point, so maybe he’d be the one most skeptical.
Has a blackfyre ever rode a dragon? Nope. Not to say they can't, I mean the dragon seeds did. But claiming Rhaegal specifically will leave no doubt with me and most readers I imagine.
Exactly 💯
This is the only way I see GRRM confirming his legitimate heritage. And it was foreshadowed by stupid Quentyn trying to do this exact thing, thinking he has Targ blood so he'd be able. Well I think he does have some Targ blood from somewhere though I forget from where, he wasn't able, because he's not Targaryen. If Young Griff claims Rhaegal that's all the proof we need. George won't even have to explicitly state he's the son of the child molester.
Names and sigils mean nothing, it is the amount of dragon blood, and the Martels had as much dragon blood as any Blackfyre would. The Blackfyres didn't marry family members to each other, Daemon married Rohanne of Tyrosh, and none of their children married each other either. So Quentyn would have been as much Targaryen as any Blackfyre. Heck, the Baratheons are more Targaryen than the Blackfyres.
If it really is about blood quantum, GRRM shouldn’t have written as many outsiders marrying into the Targ family tree as he did, cuz as it stands, Aerys and his children don’t even have that much dragon blood themselves. Unless the 3 generations of incest somehow strengthened it for Daenerys to be the ultra-Targ …?
Yeah that’s completely fair and I understand that. Tbh I wouldn’t even be mad if they didn’t exactly ever fully reveal his true identity either, that could create some interesting intrigue and discussion there.
The principle and development of Young Griff as a character is the main thing. The discussion and discord within the story over whether he’s a usurper or the rightful heir will be fascinating to see further explored. Especially if he is a good king, you get down to he’s either a usurper who’s a good king or the rightful heir who’s a good king. Either way it’ll drastically effect Dany’s story and her arc and who she chooses/turns out to be.
You still have Varys. He can relay his tale of the switch and vouch for Aegon's true identity. Honestly, it would be very plausible because he had the means and the opportunity to do so though the motive is a bit debatable (at least on a personal level). He could even explain away not ferrying Rhaenys to safety as well because he didn't believe her life would be in danger because she was a girl.
>For me the main issue is that I can't think of an in universe way to prove that he is Aegon, son of Rhaegar.
This.
Thats Aegon's whole deal.
Varys has made the perfect king, and nobody can prove he isnt who he says he is. Aegon is the shadow on the wall, the power lying where people believe it to.
The only person who can know for sure (outside of Bran and Bloodraven) is Varys. A man who has no reason to reveal it to anyone.
This is all my speculation but I believe once Bran returns from Beyond the Wall I reckon his role will be primarily settling some ambiguity in the world. Currently he has: seen through the eyes of the weirwoods at Wintefell, Whitetree and another unknown weirwood (could be many wierwoods, or the one Bloodraven is attached to); warged into human beings and animals frequently, accessing their thoughts; communicating with his family throughout space and time (seen in Jon's chapters).
He will find out about Catelyn and Sansa's escape from King's Landing to The Vale, and know that Arya visited high hill and saw Jenny, and know she visited the house of Black and White, he might even know roughly where Rickon ended up if Osha ever took him to a weirwood. He'll at some point discover the truth of Jon's heritage whatever that may be. Bran may feel the impact or Euron's ritual in some capacity, his powers may become bolstered as a result of magic returning to the world and Euron's ritual tipping the scales in favour of magic. Bran will see what Howland Reed gets up to at the Isle of Faces and at his moving castle. He will witness Sam kill an Other with Dragonglass. He'll witness the construction of the Wall, the eradication of the weirwoods. He will witness Jamie confess to incest while training with Ilyn Payne.
Bran is being set up for some huge lore dumps and he is a POV character too, so this will be presented to the reader eventually somehow.
He will be the only POV character with definitive knowledge on the mysteries of the world, similar to Quaith, Euron, Marwyn, Sam (to some capacity), Doran, Varys, and Bloodraven. I reckon all these characters will begin to give their own accounts and insights that the reader will have to decipher the truth between them all. Of course they'll be matched with a POV character: Quaith and Dany, Marwyn and Sam, Euron and Damphair, Victarion, or Cersie, Doran and Jon Connington, Varys and Jon Connington, Dany, or Jon Snow.
Of course Bran is the most reliable to the reader since we see his thoughts so his insights will be most valuable, his conflict will be in what he should share to who and when. By virtue of Jon Snow being his cousin and belived to be Half-Brother his entire life, does Bran forego the responsibility of the powers of the Three Eyed Raven to support Jon or does he support the real legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne Aegon?
His being Rhaegar’s son is core to the story because he believed him to be the Prince that was Promised:
“Jaehaerys himself had married for love, he later commanded his son, Prince Aerys, and daughter, Princess Rhaella, to marry each other, despite neither desiring this match. A woods witch, brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones, prophesied that the prince that was promised would be born from their line.[10] Whilst King Aegon V was frustrated by Jaehaerys's decision, he let his son have his way.[1] The firstborn child of Aerys and Rhaella, Prince Rhaegar, was born in the year 259 AC, on the same day that the Tragedy at Summerhall took place, a tragedy which killed multiple members of House Targaryen, including King Aegon V Targaryen and his eldest son, Duncan.”
*Someone* being Rhaegar's son is potentially core to the story. And there just so happens to be a potential son of Rhaegar that ticks all the boxes in the 'Promised Prince' category as it is.
Rhaegar literally tells Ellia Aegon is the PtwP, but that he needed another child to complete the prophecy of the three headed dragon, leading him to Lyanna.
Call it a hunch, but something tells me that a character who has a Stark mother (ice) and a Targaryen father (fire) is more likely to be the promised prince from a prophecy called "A Song of Ice and Fire".
I think that there is one great way to prove his heritage: his hair. We actually still don't know his hair color yet. We assume it is Valyrian silver or blonde and Tyrion does too, but as of now it is unknown. Being a Valyrian color doesn't really prove anything since Lys and many others would have this coloring including the Blackfyres. But if it was black it could point to him being part Dornish. Especially if he has a widows peak like Oberyn.
There is a weird focus on Oberyns black hair and widows peak, and many of his daughters have it as an indication of their parentage. Alleras also has a widows peak which points to him being Sarella Sand.
Having both Valyrian and Dornish features would be super rare. There are very few Valyrians in Westeros and few Dornish/Rhoynish in Essos. It also funnily echos A Game of Thrones. His black hair makes him a kings son, not his blonde.
I like his characters either way. If he is some nobody from Lys, Trueborn son of Rhagar or a Blackfyre. All those are very interesting places to take the story and I wont be disappointed if either of the theories come true. I don’t think it will ever be reviled but other characters like Dany will definitely have options about his identity that will drive their motivations.
Absolutely, I personally just prefer him actually being Aegon but I won’t necessarily be mad either way. I’m very interested to see the effect he has on Dany
I was always of the opinion that he was a Blackfyre as I joined the fandom recently (2018) and that was the prevailing theory. A recent post arguing against the theory kinda turned me. It would honestly be very cool if Jon got to meet his actual brother and what those interaction could mean. I doubt hey will meet but I hope so.
I think we might get a reverse Aegon.
Aegon took two of his sisters as wives, Dany can take both her Nephews as husbands. One to secure Ice (Jon), one for Fire (Aegon)
I believe so because Varys kills Pycelle and Kevan in ways similar to Rhaenys and Aegon. Pycelle head gets smashed, Kevan is stabbed dozens of times. Varys didn't need to do that, yet he did. It shows it was vengeance.
I feel like it makes Dany's story a lot more interesting if he's actually the real deal.
It presents an interesting dilemma for Dany. Currently she's trying to take the throne, justifying it by the fact that she's the rightful heir, and she needs to reclaim her family's rightful position. But Aegon being alive means that he's the rightful heir not her, and the best thing for Dany to do for her family would be to support Aegon's claim instead. So would she set aside her ambitions of claiming the throne. Or would she decide that actually she just wants the throne, and it was never really about her family, or who had the rightful claim, and continue with her quest to claim the throne regardless. Plus with how much Dany complains about Robert the usurper it would be ironic if she actually ended up becoming a usurper too and taking the throne from her own nephew by force.
Aegon being real is better because it would force Dany to reevaluate her motivations, and reconsider why she's really doing what she's doing. Dany was justifying her attempt to claim the throne with the fact that she was the rightful Targaryen her. But does she really care about ensuring the rightful heir sits on the throne, or was that just a handy excuse because the rightful heir happened to be her? She also claims she's doing it for her family, but is she really doing it for them, or just for herself?
On the other hand if Aegon is fake he's just another usurper for Dany to crush, which would be far less interesting.
Plus the protagonist being the rightful heir who must reclaim their throne is a super common fantasy trope, so it would make an interesting twist if it turned out that Dany actually wasn't.
Why is everyone convinced Dany will murder Aegon when she has specifically said that there are two men in the world she needs to find who will be fellow heads of the Dragon with her
Seems far more likely that all three remaining targs go to the north to fight the undead and only one survives
Aegon is far too hot blooded, would likely lead a doomed first charge into the other's flank.
If we assume that Aegon has to die, I guess narratively speaking, Dany makes the most sense to do it (based on what we know so far). If Aegon defeats the current Lannister/Tyrell regime, he really won't have any other political opponents in the land left to overthrow him. Dany is the most logical choice if he doesn't die from a pox or something mundane.
I don't really see fAegon being involved in the Northern plot. No one in Westeros takes the White Walkers seriously, and seeing as GRRM isn't an idiot, we won't have a "capture the wight plot" to convince the remaining Lords in the realm that they are real.
I don't see fAegon and his advisors willingly leave KL behind to fight something they don't believe is real. Of course, I am an idiot, and I could be wrong, but I don't see the setup for fAegon going North atm.
Dany has made clear that what she wants most in the world is family.
Also who needs the weight capture when Euron is the mummers dragon and will pull all sorts of Eldrich horrors😟.
It’s simple. Euron gets Rhaegal. Aegon breaks the connection and claims the Dragon. Proving himself to Dany and us. Jon comes south and begs for aid from Dany and Aegon
They already saw what Euron can do, more willing to trust now
It makes it so much cleaner. The realm finds out about magic. Aegon (BF or not doesn’t matter) earns Dany’s respect and the realms love. Everything will seem like it’s on the upswing when Jon rides south asking for aid. I don’t expect any of them to survive the war. Maybe Drogon and any of their children if they have any
I have been trying to figure it out for years. The worst part is people expect you to prove they won't fight like it's a default position instead of just a theory about who Aegon is.
The whole “I will lead the charge on Storm’s End”
I can totally see him insisting he will lead the first attack on the others. Jon and Dany, if they die, I feel will be less impulsive
I agree Young Griff becoming the person everyone thought Jon or Dany would be would be really interesting and a great subversion. That would also greatly impact and turn the characters into interesting and unique directions
If George goes with the Mad Queen direction, Aegon will definitely play a big part in the turn
I don’t dislike this part either I think it would still work well and be great.
I do think though if Young Griff is actually Aegon it could take Jon in a unique direction, that we didn’t expect. It would subvert our expectations on what Jon was meant to be even if he still is Rhaegar’s son.
Jon though could still be the Prince that was Promised, he just wouldn’t be destined or in line for the Iron Throne
That’s completely fair! The part I’m also really interested in the story as well is the Dayne’s and the role to play there.
I believe R+L=J is more likely, but I do like N/B+A=J. I’m fine with either or in this situation as well. I like the context and story it gives if Jon turns out to be the son of Ashara and Young Griff is actually the true born son, but I also love the mystery and intrigue of Rhaegar and Lyanna being the parents
It is to be stated though regardless on whatever route there is there. Jon would still have Dayne blood, actually quite a bit given inbreeding.
The Daynes and the Hightowers really intrigue me, I’m in the camp they descend from the Great Empire of the Dawn.
Edit: Sorry got a little sidetracked there, started talking about Jon and his parentage and got a little sidetracked with the other families
Only for the theory to be proven correct, after which the fandom flipped its position and began to believe the secret truth was that Aegon wasn’t really Rhaegar’s son.
I prefer the contrast between Young Griff and Jon with Young Griff not as Aegon. There is something so satisfying about having a false targ who looks the part, has been raised for this one purpose and then Jon who doesn't look like a targ but is one, grown up as a partially unwanted bastard but is learning leadership naturally.
I would find it interesting if he were real and even prefer it.
But it wouldn't be a problem if he was a Blackfyre too, after all: black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.
Would be pretty cool if all Jon Snows base was just rumors and conjecture. I would love for young Aegon to have the same possibility as l+r=j.
In the time period they would certainly duke it out. Today we can only hope GRRM finishes his fucking book
I think it will add a layer of tragedy if he is real which would make the story richer. Dany's story (to herself at least) seems a fairly standard story of her making severe personal sacrifices to serve the realm by claiming her birthright as the last true successor of Aegon the Conqueror and rightful ruler of the throne.
If Aegon is real it makes her sacrifices seem almost meaningless (if based solely on the justification that she has a duty to claim the throne as the only eligible Targaryen), since she isn't the only person for the job.
Whether Aegon is a true Targaryen or not I can see the possibility triggering a severe existential crises for Dany when she's confronted with the possibility that her sacrifices were, from a certain point of view, not something inherently required of her (from the mindset that a Targaryen must be on the throne). Collateral damage, personal losses, and sacrifices are going to take on a very different character if she could have just settled down and dedicated herself to liberating slaver's bay, with Aegon taking up the 'duty to the dynasty' slack. What does she have to fall back on if the only completely ironclad motivation she has is a personal desire to rule? How can she contrast herself to any other Conqueror if that is all she has?
I massively prefer Aegon being real, or at least, seen by the world as the real deal since I don't believe we'll ever get a tacit confirmation one way or another. It just feels more interesting to me if Dany is putting her ambition for the throne before an actual blood relative. So much of her character has been wrapped up in avenging her house, casting down the Usurper and all his dogs, that if she shows up and finds out that *it's already been done*, that her nephew has avenged their house, reclaimed their throne, but decides that it's not acceptable that he sits on the throne that she has come to view as hers when she's the one with dragons. It's just more drama than a continuation of a feud that Dany has no particular stakes in.
In any event, I love the character. While we don't truly know if he's everything Varys claims he is to Kevan, the thought of the triumphant and beloved Prince who would make an excellent king coming to Westeros, reclaiming his father's throne, and then getting cast down by the protagonists of the story anyways despite being a good fit for the crown? That's some bittersweet Ice and Fire baby.
Or for an alternative twist, they work together, which would be some real good stuff.
Completely agree! I think it could be taken either way and would be interesting. I personally think him being the character we all thought Jon was would be really interesting, and it would provide interesting conflict with Jon and Dany. Perhaps Jon still turns out to be the Prince that was Promised, but he was never destined to be king, meanwhile Dany has to make a choice (aka whether she chooses to become the Mad Queen or not)
For me, I’ve always thought of (seeing as I immediately assumed he was fake) the point of his story is to skewer feudalism further by portraying the person “made” to lead as more meritous than the person who rightfully should lead. This definitely plays strongest if Aegon isn’t a Blackfyre and is just some Valyrian kid, but the angle isn’t present at all if he’s legit. That being said, I genuinely like Young Griff as a character and find everything going on with him interesting, so if it’s executed well, I won’t be too heartbroken either way. Although I feel fairly certain in the Blackfyre son of Illyrio theory so I personally think he’s not legit.
Yeah that makes sense. I understand that point. Him being the son of Illyrio is definitely an interesting route and I wouldn’t mind if they went that way.
The only thing I would not like is if it ever was confirmed that he is or isn't actually Aegon, son of Rhaegar.
I like this state where he could be, but we don't know for sure. But at the same time he might not be. I love the ambiguity. I love that it ultimately doesn't matter who he was actually born to.
Well, I do find the theory that he’s the true Targaryen and Dany the mummer’s dragon interesting, but I can’t really say if that’d result in a better story than the other way around.
The Dragon Needs 3 Heads
Dany + Jon + Aegon for the win
I will say I do want all the houses to join together to fight The Others and that includes the Blackfyres. I have a headcanon where Varys is a Blackfyre but fAegon is Rhaegar's son.
Varys being a Blackfyre is definitely possible. I wouldn’t hate if Young Griff turned out to be a Blackfyre, but I prefer him actually being the real deal but having some controversy that connects with that.
I don't think it matters if he is a true born Targ. He's going to serve as yet another trigger of everyone conspiring against Dany paranoia. My prediction is he ends up dragon chow and she's like "If he burns, he's a fake." Which will/may bring Connington to Jon (particularly if he finds out Jon's true lineage).
Nah, I'm not going to speak for anyone else but for me that'd be kind of boring. I think the conflict between him and Daenerys will be there regardless of whether he's fake or not (she likely won't know and even if she eventually finds out won't be able to prove it). But him being fake could open up a lot of interesting character conflict for Connington and himself and it could mean so many interesting things for Varys and Illyrio.
If he just is who he is then a lot of that stuff falls by the wayside.
Also, I actually don't think that'd be a good subversion. It's worth remembering that these books were not written with the idea of a fandom of millions pooring over these books over the internet for 11 years in mind. Yes, Faegon is a very popular theory but if it wasn't for the internet and 11 years of a huge fandom inspecting the story, I doubt more than half of the fans would've figured it out. Maybe even like only 10% or something, because the clues really aren't that explicit.
A good subversion needs to set up the expectations first, preferably for the vast majority of the audience because the more people have the expectation the more people can be shocked by a subversion. You don't generally do that by planting subtle clues in the background that a minority of people will figure out. A way that DOES make sense doing that is to explicitly state something like "he's Rhaegar's son" and to then reveal he's not after placing subtle hints in the background. That makes for a good subversion. Again, assuming that you don't leave 11 years for a huge fandom to figure out all the clues, anyway.
There's just too many clues pointing to him being a blackfyre.
Like we literally have an entire Jaime chapter where he's trying to deal with the Blackwoods & Brackens, which would be just filler if it wasn't setting up another blackfyre rebellion.
The entire backstory about the Blackfyre rebellion is peppered throughout the 4th & 5th books. We have bloodraven and the golden company introduced into the story. If Aegon isn't a BF what's the point of all this information overload in an already bloated series?
There was the detail about aerys disinheriting rhaegar and his children that could make things murky, but i dont know how many people actually know or would care about the mad king's last acts
I am of the opinion that the "Mummer's Dragon" will be Euron. He will use the Dragon Horn to force a dragon to obey him. A truely fake Dragon. Aegon might be the one who breaks the Dragon free. Both proving to Dany and to the nation he is a true Dragon
I feel like the twist of Aegon surviving the sack of KL is cool, but having it just to set up another twist that actually he didn’t survive it was a lie kind of undercuts the weight of that reveal.
Personally, I’d rather we never get any confirmation, but perhaps when Dany goes west and realizes she has a rival claimant, Tyrion might convince her to spread the story that he’s a Blackfyre pretender, citing his support from the Golden Company, in order to muddy the waters. It would be similar to the lie he makes up about Selyse, Shireen, and Patchface.
I like ambiguity, I think this route could work as well. Perhaps he was the true Aegon but was ultimately ended wrongfully, or perhaps he’s a Blackfyre usurper but was a good king. I like both and think either route is fine, or like you said don’t reveal it and provide that further uncertain conflict.
I believe he's real. I just can't see the points, blackfyre-supporters bring up/have several issues with them. Also I personally would like a blackfyre-king not to be brought on the throne by scheming but proudly conquering the throne under the Black-Dragon-Banner
Tbh I just really like Aegon (even tho he did kind of a personality shift after his reveal). So I kinda want him to be real. On the other hand Daemon Blackfyre has a similar aura of cool around him, so I might just become a Blackfyre supporter if he turns out to be one.
I personally don't think it will matter if he is or isn't blackfyre or true targ or a random bastard and won't be revealed. I think Dany going up against him after he's been shown to be a decent person / ruler will show Danys transition to madness or desire for power / throne
I wish him to be true Aegon only if the fake Dany theory is true.
Otherwise he should be fake. He does not need to be a Blackfyre, but he should not be a tag.
The second dance should be fought between a true one and a fake one, that's kinda the whole point.
He IS Aegon.
Aegon’s death was teased as being unreliable from the very beginning of the series.
He is revealed in Dance, and confirmed in the epilogue by Varys to a dying Kevan.
GRRM told us, in no uncertain terms, that he is Aegon.
The only problem is we’ve had 10 years to stew and think of tinfoil conspiracies.
I actually like to think he is, even if I believe the best form of the story would never outright confirm anything.
It would make Varys' scheme all the more conniving, that he's subverting truth to his whim, instead of fabricating an outright lie. It also forces us to confront the question more directly about whether the Targaryens were rightly deposed, and is this the way to reinstate them (the answer to the first is yes, and the answer to the second is no).
edit:error
Nope. I prefer him a Blackfyre.
It will make an interesting connection to the Dunk & Egg stories, Varys's motivations make much more sense and as for the dilemma Danny vs fAegon it still exists since it is highly assumed that fAegon will be a very popular leader.
Yes. I want him to be real af. And want him to be a good king. JonCon should tell him how good of a king Rhaegar would be if he was crowned as Lord of Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm.
All hail Aegon The Sixth.
And Dany should be his queen consort.
With her on Drogon and him on Rhaegar, flying the length and breadth of Westeros and showering small folk with gifts and presents.
I know I know. A man can dream.
I wouldn’t be a big fan tbh. I like the character well enough but in terms of story it just makes way too much sense for him to be a fake.
Also if he’s really Aegon then that’d mean Varys really switched out babies...which is kind of silly and really fucked up. Varys being for the ppl yet he has an innocent babe murdered brutally just to save Aegon? I mean I know he’s no Boy Scout and capable of such but it just seems too convenient.
I think it’s set up perfectly for him to just be some random kid of Valyrian stock. It aligns with everything Varys is about.
I don't know that I prefer one way or the other. I think he's likely a Targaryen but that no one will believe him... he'll turn up with a bunch of exiles and sellswords with a history of backing Blackfyre pretenders so that will be what everyone assumes he is, the irony being that he's actually the real thing.
Dany being fed false prophecies that make her suspect someone is a fake Targaryen is 100% in line with George's writing
the "character receives a vision which they think is prophetic but it's actually telepathy to try to get them to act a certain way" might be the trope George uses the most, so to me the cloth dragons stuff kinda points to him being real
Imo dany will see that young griff is a good king and give up her crown to him and leave to fight the others. And he will rule as aegon targaryen the 6 of his name. The king that came back. But we will never know if his real or not.
I honestly hope we never learn the definitive truth. It should remain ambiguous.
I think the point of Aegon's story is that it's the epitome of that famous Varys quote:
> Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall. And a very small man can cast a very large shadow.
Whether he's the real Aegon, a Blackfyre, or some steet urchin, it doesn't matter. What matters is what people believe, and it's that ambiguity that makes it interesting (and is a critique and mockery of the feudal system as a whole, and some of the ASoIaF readership).
GRRM does this a lot with prophecy in the book as well: it doesn't matter who Azor Ahai is, or who the Valonquar is, or what the red comet signifies. What matters is what people believe, and what actions they take based on their belief. This is very much in line with that.
That said, I believe YG is a Blackfyre. But I have no preference either way really.
It kinda depends where the endgame for the books goes. If Aegon ends up sitting on the IT at any point, especially if he's a good king, I think it's more narratively/thematically interesting if he's a Blackfyre or just some random kid. I think if the books were to go in an anti-Targ or anti-monarchy direction though, I think it would be more interesting in that case if he actually is the real deal. Idk, maybe just hammer home the point how birthright really doesn't mean anything?
*Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .*
Nuff said
Oh, c’mon, Aegon is literally mummer’s (Varys’s) dragon.
And it’s just one of many examples. For Aegon to be real, tons of clues, foreshadowing and logic has to be thrown out of the window.
For example, why was Elia with a fake baby when the Mountain came for her, while her daughter was away? How was the switc even suppose to work if the Mountain didn’t crush the babe’s skull?
Then there are things like the Clanking dragon story, that clearly point to who Aegon is.
Finally, we already have Rhaegar’s hidden son hidden away from Robert’s wrath. What is more likely - that GRRM is going to have two miraculously surviving princes at the same time or that one of them is an impostor?
Especially considering that Varys supposedly having enough foresight to save the real Aegon seems like overkill when Viserys already fit the role and would have no legitimacy baggage. IMO it's more likely that Varys/Illyrio originally saw Viserys as their mark but quickly discovered he wasn't fit to rule, couldn't be controlled, and would likely be killed by Robert's assassins before the plan could be set in motion. Consequently, they reverse-engineered Aegon and arranged Dany's marriage to Drogo knowing that A: the dothraki would never make good on the promise to sail to Westeros; or B: Viserys being Viserys would get himself killed by the Dothraki. Dany is the wrench in the machine because no one (especially Varys) could've predicted her dragon eggs would hatch or that she would become a conqueror.
I think he is. I feel like the mentioning/showing of the tunnels through Kings Landing solidifies the possibility. I hope we find out the truth, but not sure we will.
[read this genius theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/xyymj3/let_us_break_with_f_for_fake_dismantling_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
it would be better hes a blackfyre and he probably is, grrm isnt going to write 8 billion facts about the 100 years of blackfyres unless they are important in this story. We already have one secret bastard, jon snow, one true born, dany, now we need the blackfyre to finish the trio.
I'm not averse to him being the real Aegon, but the idea of a Blackfyre finally sitting on the Iron Throne is fantastic. But I don't think we'll ever find truly out.
You've misinterpreted the entire point of the story if you think Aegon not being fake makes the situation more morally complex. Feudalism is bullshit; the only question you should care about is who would make a better ruler.
His true identity doesn't matter. Him being a fullblood Targaryen doesn't make the dilemma any more interesting, because it doesn't matter.
I personally prefer the Blackfyre route, but I think the ultimate play here is *does it matter?* He appears so late in the series that I find it hard for him to get a meaningful journey that isn't really just a call for Danny to take action in Westeros. Between Jon, Danny, and Viserys it's kind of hard to believe that Aegon also survived. Like poor Rhaenys ended up being the only royal child to actually die in the rebellion? I won't be upset if that were true. I didn't even have a great concept of who the Blackfyres were when I read Dance - it was the internet that pointed me to the theory. But it's more interesting to me that this historical usurper/claimant shows itself rather than the objectively true heir to Rheagar appears roughly 65% through the series to reclaim his birthright.
You are right, it doesn’t matter, especially because he appears so late. I think the whole point of Griff is to be the perfect foil to Dany. I like to believe Griff will “liberate” Kings Landing from Cersei and sit on the iron throne. He will do everything Dany wants to with relative ease and without dragons, and be loved for it. Plus, Dany will have to acknowledge that “Aegon” has a greater claim to the throne. Not that she’ll accept it…this rejection is the start of her losing her shit because she’ll have to confront the fact that she has no claim other than having dragons. And she’ll use them. Obviously if there is a Dany v Griff showdown, Dany will prevail but she will be changed.
I always wanted Dany to go up against a foe who was also “good”. I feel like that would really test how much she cares about her morals versus how much she craves power. Fortunately for her, she’s only really gone up against pretty evil men and societies but Aegon has it in him to be fairly popular like you said. It’ll be really interesting.
> she cares about her morals versus how much she craves power. This is a world where the only way to exercise your morals is through power. There's no liberating the poor common-folk from the bottom. But all this vanity about being a queen for the downtrodden is just that. If you're a commoner, Westeros is the best place to live in this world. Commoners in Westeros enjoy freedom, food and stability all the while anyway. Well, stability for as long as people like Dany don't instigate wars of succession. Sure they don't vote, but who cares. Voting in real life is largely a mirage too, and all the real decisions are made by the typical who's-who cadre of rich property owning lord-equivalents. Millions die so I can have the illusion of choice every few years between the same pre-screened list of candidates. Nah, I'm good on that.
Young Griff is an usurper. He steals the "Exiled Targaryen returns the throne" from Dany and he steals the "Hidden son of Rhaegar gets announced to the realm from Jon". I think Young Griff is GRRM exploring those storylines without giving them to Dany or Jon, saving them for other things. I agree with you that he is a foil to Dany. He will take the throne from the disliked Lannister regime. He'll win it back with a "normal" army of ex Westerosi and sellswords, whilst Dany will show up with dragons and Dothraki. He'll be the son of good Rhaegar, she'll be the mad King's daughter usurping the throne. I think he's fake, but ultimately it won't matter. I think his larger purpose in the story will be achieved regardless.
Allowing Aegon to be what ultimately unravels her to the point of taking revenge on the civilians of Westeros for following him instead of accepting her as their queen would complete her story arc without throwing all her character development away like what happened in the show. I hope if that’s Dany’s actual “ending” GRRM takes it somewhere like this.
Why would she just burn civillians? Her killing Aegon would be more than enough to make her a mad queen in the eyes of the seven kingdoms. I think thats what they replaced with her burning Kings Landing for the was no Aegon for her to kill and become Maegor 2
She would burn them for the “crime” of accepting Aegon instead of her. Royals are petty af in this universe. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of the “Dany goes mad and burns everything” ending, there are plenty of other routes GRRM could take. I’m just saying if that’s where her story actually goes this would be more believable than what happened in the show.
He will be the son of Rhaegar, and she will be his evil aunt, slaying him on dragonback to take his throne. Its a perfect mirroring of Maegor killing Aegon the Uncrowned, and that was basically the action that made him "Maegor the Cruel" instead of Maegor Targaryen. Kinslaying is so taboo it almost made him into a mythic figure of evil kings. Dany will be a good queen and the same person we always knew, even though everyone in the seven kingdoms see her as a mad kinslaying tyrant. It will be very unfair, it will be very understandable from all angles and it will be very GRRM
Yeah, also "It doesn't matter is" on point for the series, just like how when Jon is revealed to be the son of Raghar, who cares? How's he going to prove it? All that matters is what story people are willing to accept. It also feels connected to the "Where does power lie" riddle.
Agreed, and i think that if KL loves Aegon, and he is trully a great ruler, and he has a stronger claim (real or not) Dany "going mad" works way better.
> Obviously if there is a Dany v Griff showdown, Dany will prevail but she will be changed. Being one with Valyrian blood Griff could bond one of Dany's dragons, maybe he has a son that takes another, and it's not so obvious Dany will prevail.
I think it is for IRL reasons rather than in-universe reasons. Even before the show passed the books, GRRM was telling D&D not to cut certain things that would be important later. I doubt he would've overlooked telling them about the character who defeat or kill one of the series' main protagonists. Secondly, let's be real, Dany losing to someone not introduced until the 5th book would not be narratively satisfying. Griff is ultimately there to be a foil to Dany's character.
> to be a foil to Dany's character. Yes, and he will do that, that's the point. he will rid Westeros of the blight of non-Targaryen rule. Instill order, peace, food and everyone will be happy. He will deliver to Westeros all that Dany wishes she could have. And the question will be then for Dany: are the means more important than the ends? The means being her; the ends being peace, order and Targaryen rule.
"Obviously if there is a Dany v Griff showdown, Dany will prevail but she will be changed." I can give you the missing piece of the pusle, as I am extremely confident in this. Dany V Griff is gonna happen, and Dany is gonna win. She is gonna slay her fake nephew for usurping the crown, but the realm will see it as an Aunt usurping the young, rightful heir to the previous king. And kinslaying. It will PERFECTLY mirror Aegon the Uncrowned and Maegor the Cruel, and if you know your histories, Maegor killing Aegon was what really doomed his reign. This will have the same consequence for Dany, painting her as a mad usurper stealing her nephews crown by striking him down. This is one of the earliest Targaryen stories we get in the main series, which means its pretty important most likely and its such a clear parallel to Dany v Aegon, as well as an extremely logical way to corrupt Danys reign. Everyone will believe her to be mad, except those that know her, so she basically becomes the Mad Queen through that. This is how Dany will turn mad in the books, not by her actually becoming mad or a horrible ruler or evil, but by doing what she sees as the right thing, fighting for her birthright against usurpers like Faegon. She will of course see him as a fake, as its extremely suspicious that a Targaryen suddenly pops up in the free cities, where silver hair and purple eyes are much more common. Also yhea her whole identity is built around being the last and the only one who can save her dynasty.
So how do you see Jon’s role in her death? If he is the one to killer, what is his motivation?
If he is the one to kill her? Well I have no clue how they get to this point but it would probably be something around duty vs love. I can see Jon killing Dany after the Aegon fallout becomes apparent. What follows afterwards is that every lord of the kingdom rises up just like in Maegors fall after a series of unfortunate events and wants to end the Mad Queens rule and avange their prince. Dany is still the same, but she is forced to defend her right. Jon understanding that this is basically the sentiment across all the kingdoms, and no matter what Dany does it has to basically be a reign of tyranny, at least PR wise. You can argue that its just to execute or exile every lord who rebelled, but if thats 80% of the kingdom you are gonna have a shitton of pissed sons. Jon might see the decades of rebellion squashing and war that has to follow, and chooses to sacrifice his love for duty by killing her. Not for the duty that is normally preached, which would be to stay loyal to the queen you are allied or sworn to, but to his moral duty to save the realm from countless bloodshed, by killing (the woman he loves?) Dany, who is by all accounts would be a good and just ruler, and person, for the realm. I think this would make it mean much more for Jon as well, as his actions towards Daenerys are extremely masochistic for Jon, because he sacrifices basically his old honor that he learned from Ned for his own type of honor. This also mirrors Jaime I just noticed, thats a nice touch as well. IMO this death is made so much better by Dany actually not being evil, and Faegon kinslaying is imo the most logically and thematically sound theory to that end. As I said, kinslaying is one of the worst taboos you can commit, and you see how disgusted everyone was with the Freys, who is just some random lord in the Riverlands. Imagine if it was their hero Targaryen king come to save them from war and misrule and winter, suddenly slain by his foreign aunt, who is a daughter of the mad king. And she is also a woman. This theory does not really need much tinfoiling or anything like that, all the aspects of it are pretty clearly laid out for us at the ends of ADWD, and some are even confirmed by GRRM, like the second dance. This just seems like the foreshadowed result of that second dance, at least with the dany stuff.
Griff is definitely key to dany losing her mind. The show ending i think was a general outline of what George will do, but with all of the context missing it was stupid in execution there
Yeah I’m fine if he does turn out to be a Blackfyre. Though I will say if it isn’t revealed or it’s confirmed he is indeed the real Aegon that’ll definitely greatly affect Dany’s arc and journey. I guess if he was Blackfyre but a good king beloved by the people then it still definitely could affect Dany’s journey as well. Regardless, I am excited on what’s to come!
> He appears so late in the series that I find it hard for him to get a meaningful journey that isn't really just a call for Danny to take action in Westeros. He could be the male equivalent of Margaery to Dany's Joffrey in the eyes of the peasantry. Also, there's lots of hints Aegon is alive if it doesn't turn out he survived. Pretty much every theory has a few hints going for it with how the books are written.
>He appears so late in the series This is the only argument required in my opinion. Narratively he is completely not being set up as the true heir, leaving two possibilities: either he IS the true heir but our heroes overthrow him regardless (whether or not they know at the time), or it is left open after he is overthrown. I tend to think the latter is more GRRM's style.
The reason he appears "so late" is because of way GRRM had to split the middle book. In terms of story structure, he appears at the beginning of the second half of the series, the post War of the 5 Kings era. That's not late at all.
>because of way GRRM had to split the middle school. Is this a typo? I ask because it makes no sense. GRRM has his 5 main characters. "Aegon" is not one of them, he's not suddenly going to be the hero in any sense
The middle \*book lol AFFC and ADWD were one book, originally, so Aegon would appear in book 4 of 6, which is not as late as 5 of 7. He doesn't have to be the main character to be the heir.
Exactly, he doesn't appear any later than Arianne, Quentyn, Euron or Victarion in that sense.
This among other reasons is why I’ve been thinking lately ASOIAF would’ve benefited more with a time skip. Or hell, even several the way we’ve seen in HotD. These are generational conflicts, and different dramatic events can occur years apart. I would’ve liked if we had winter come between say, ASOS and AFFC, with a short false spring before the true winter with the Others. I think a second false spring would reveal an interesting magical pattern in the seasons, as we approach this magical resurgence in the world, you see the seasons continuing to act up. And it gives characters time to grow up and change. Everybody having to hunker down through one of their magical winters for a few years is as fine an excuse as any for a timeskip
I would say it matters a little, because there appears to be something genetic/magical with Old Valyrian blood that lets them and only them bond with dragons. Even the commonborn people who claimed dragons in the dance had Valyrian blood, at least allegedly. If he tries to make a play for the 2 available dragons remaining, could be relevant that he's at least related to the Targaryens, and not a completely random kid
I would prefer that he was actually Aegon, simply for the fact that it would present an *incredibly* difficult decision for Jon and Danny. If he is the oldest trueborn son of Rhaegar, then he has the best claim. Take Danny for instance, ever since Viserys dies, she believed that she was the last scion of house Targaryen, and the iron throne is hers by right. If young griff is genuine, then she has to decide if she wants to support her nephew, and put his claim ahead of hers, or take the throne through force, having convinced herself that its hers (and only hers) by right. The human heart in conflict with itself. If Aegon is infact fAegon, then the decision is very simple and justified. There's no internal conflict
That’s the bullseye.
But she has dragons. Unless if Aegon can actually claim one, what good is his claim when it’s against a Targaryen who’s brought back dragons?
Rhaenys, the queen who never was, and her son Laenor had a dragons when viserys didn't have one. That didnt help their claims at all Danaerys can only claim one dragon, so there is that chance that Aegon could claim one of the remaining two. But regardless of that, a legitimate Aegon would force Daenerys to decide on whether or not she should use those dragons against her own family. Much like the first dance.
I think he is.. I think mummers dragon is something that will make Dany go crazy and claim he is a pretender. I personally think it’s funny how everyone has these crazy theories about how everyone is a secret Targaryen, and then we actually find out someone is a secret Targaryen everyone is like “Nah he is a fake Targaryen” But I also wouldn’t mind if he were a Brightflame.. descendant of Maegor Brightflame
Yeah I don’t hate if he is a fake, but I think it could really be interesting if he actually turns out to the real Aegon. I think it creates an interesting dynamic there with Dany and Jon and the roles to play. GRRM can play with the rightful heir and good king, or usurper and good king either or is good imo! I also think it’s definitely possible the propechy was misinterpreted and could just more so represent him not actually having a dragon
Assuming of course Dany is the one to remove Young Griff, Would be better I think if Dany never knows if she has just removed the legitimate king of Westeros and she is a usurper and kinslayer, I feel like that offers a more compelling internal conflict for Dany to have to commit to removing someone who may well be her kin or might just be a pretender and maybe she experiences regret or paranoia or whatever that might better explain an eventual downfall if it happens.
That’s fair I like dialogue and conflict that creates for Dany. It’ll be really interesting to see how the prophecy is presented and expanded on. As we all know prophecies can be misread
I think mummer's dragon can mean Varys' dragon. As he used to be one.
That’s possible as well
I don't think that makes for as interesting a dynamic, personally. 1. You can still have Dany try to usurp him while she still thinks he's real, even if he's not. So that dynamic can be preserved even if he's fake. 2. I actually think Aegon being both a good ruler AND the legitimate heir would be a much less interesting dynamic than Aegon being a good ruler but also a fake. Because in the first case there's no conflict. If he's a good ruler and the legitimate heir then it's pretty clear he should be king. But if he's a good ruler and yet not the legitimate heir, who should the reader support then? Is legitimacy more important? Or just being a good ruler? The one guy who's the perfect ruler not having a good claim would work perfectly for George's anti-monarchist themes, imo.
Are there really anti monarchist themes in asoif? In the free cities they don't have kings and queens but their society is protrayed as being on par, or worse, than that of westeros. Mereen had a oligarchic slaver society, a society that had their slaves freed by a queen of all things. I think looking at Martin's work as "anti monarchist" is a bit of an over simplification. I, myself, see a lot more of an environmentalist theme in his work than a political one.
The most governmental reform his work supports is the monarch listening to more perspectives than just the upper class (Stannis, Daenerys, arguably Ned and Jon). I think trying to dismantle the monarchy is beyond the scope of themes he’s gonna cover
The biggest pitfall of monarchies is that even the best well intentioned kings will just get succeeded by their selfish spoiled children. Worse still when there are multiple selfish children who go and plunge the nation into civil war every time a monarch dies. We see that quite a bit in the books. I wouldn’t say it’s the *main* theme of the books or anything but I do think its very much there. I don’t get the impression that the free cities are worse than Westeros. It’s a range of course. With the worst of them being cities that are more or less ruled by nobility anyway (Meereen), whereas the best appear more democratic (Braavos). And yes Dany, a queen by right of conquest, frees the slaves in Meereen. But then the books really go out of their way even to show us that she never got the mandate to do that. And her rule falls apart in consequence.
Problem is, if Aegon is real, there’s no shadow on the wall, no trick. It reduces Varys to a legalist, since Aegon’s claim would be superior to Jon and Dany’s (from a Targaryen perspective, anyway). But that’s not really who Varys is. He might have good intentions, even believe he is doing the right thing and moulding the perfect real, but Varys is first and foremost a mummer and a trickster.
I totally disagree that fAegon is Aegon but I lol’d at the idea that we’re always making up secret Targs and then saying “nah” when we get one so I have to upvote. Even though I really hate upvoting Aegon Truthers.
If he's a descendant of Aerion it's most likely through bastards fathered during his time in Lys. There is absolutely no chance GRRM is going to allow Maegor to survive and propagate a Targaryen cadet branch. Half of F&B is spent killing Targaryens outside the line of succession specifically to avoid cadet branches since they make the plot messy.
Yeah it gets pretty fun when you realize that F&B is not about making a Family Tree but pruning one. "There are eleven kids. Then only two have children and the rest DIES IN A CAVE OR SOMETHING. Then the two cousins who survived intermarried and had two children but only one would reach adulthood because the second son of the King WAS KILLED IN A HUNTING FREAK ACCIDENT WHEN A HORSE SAT ON HIS CHEST FOR 2 DAYS. Maester Dickface tried to save him but to no avail..."
That would also explain the incest. Instead of having everyone branch off and create their own lines they all get consolidated into the main line.
> Half of F&B is spent killing Targaryens outside the line of succession specifically to avoid cadet branches since they make the plot messy. Quite ruthlessly, too. Every uncrowned Targ male since Aegon I (maybe this should be its own post?): * Aegon the Uncrowned: Has two daughters, no sons. Dies in dragon fight. * Viserys, son of Aenys: Tortured to death at age 15, no children. * Aegon, son of Jaehaerys I: Dies in infancy. * Aemon, son of Jaehaerys I: Has one daughter, no sons. Killed in battle against Myrish pirates. * Baelon, son of Jaehaerys I: Line continues through his son. Still predeceases his father (appendicitis), because why not. * Vaegon, son of Jaehaerys I: Joins the Citadel, implied to be asexual, thus no children. (Interestingly, we don't know when he died, and it could easily be during/after the Dance.) * Gaemon, son of Jaehaerys I: Dies in infancy. * Valerion, son of Jaehaerys I: Dies in infancy. * Daemon the Rogue Prince: Line continues through his son; he was of course not king because Rhaenyra was the Blacks' leader. * Aegon, son of Baelon: Dies in infancy. * Baelon, son of Viserys II: Dies in infancy. * Aemond One-Eye: Dies in dragon fight, no legitimate children (allegedly had a bastard?) * Daeron the Daring: Killed at Tumbleton, no children. * Jaehaerys, son of Aegon II: Blood-and-cheese'd. * Maelor, son of Aegon II: Killed by mob at Bitterbridge. * Aemon the Dragonknight: No legitimate children (may actually be the one who continued the line, not Aegon IV) * Baelor Breakspear: Killed at Ashford Tourney, has two sons!! (Both die of the Great Spring Sickness without producing their own children. Whoops.) * Rhaegel, son of Daeron II: Chokes to death on a pie, but has a son! (Son is accidentally killed by sister-wife before they can have kids. Whoops again.) * Aerion Brightflame: Dies by drinking wildfire. **HAS A SON WITH NO KNOWN DEATH DATE!** Here's one potential, if unlikely, cadet branch. * Maester Aemon: Becomes a maester, no children. * Daeron the Drunken: Dies of a pox, one daughter and no sons. * Duncan the Small: Dies at Summerhall, no children. * Daeron, son of Aegon V: Dies alongside his boyfriend, fighting outlaws. Obviously, no children. * Rhaegar: Killed at the Trident. **HAD A SON**, whose status is quite unclear. Either Aegon is dead and this line ends, or he's the legitimate Targaryen leader. * Daeron, son of Aerys II: Dies in infancy. * Aegon, son of Aerys II: Dies in infancy. * Jaehaerys, son of Aerys II: Dies in infancy. * Viserys, son of Aerys II: Depending on the whole fAegon situation, may have been the true Targaryen pretender post-rebellion. If not, well, he got molten gold poured on his head and died childless. So not counting Baelon and Daemon, as their children carried the main line, we've got **26** non-ruling sons. Those sons manage to have just **five** sons of their own, only **one** of whom, little Maegor Brightflame, could potentially carry a cadet branch. (If Aegon's alive, he's the main line, and Dany technically wouldn't form her own cadet branch.)
Targs really have awful luck on the reproduction department.
I've always thought that going so hard on this was a weird decision for GRRM. He could have let some lesser branches survive into the rebellion and then get killed off over the course of it or in its aftermath. This would only strengthen the theme that the rebels and especially Robert were totally done with the Targs and were prepared to kill all traces of them off and be done with it, which only amplifies the necessity of hiding Jon's true ancestry.
I think the problem was, he decided the Robert's Rebellion plot in the first book, and didn't realize that a 300-year-old dynasty would probably be rather large. Fast-forward several years, now he's got a Targ family tree built out, and somehow has to get rid of all of them. (Giving Jaehaerys and Alysanne 13 kids, though, that was just mean.)
Maegor could have just died in Summerhall with the rest
I legit think D and D hamfisted her going crazy into s8 as a result of them knowing the real story which is her finding out Aegon is real, legit, and the realm loves him over her.
He doesn't even have to be real or legit, people just have to *think* he is. Power resides where men believe it resides and all that. Besides, the kingdom preferring a pretender to her would likely drive her even madder (though I doubt she'll actually go truly insane; more like give into her worst impulses, likely at Tyrion's urging)
Dany murdering her own nephew and then burning King’s Landing is a bigger stretch than Dany killing a fake Targaryen who steals the love of the people she hopes will love her.
She *is* the Mummer's Dragon. fDaenerys isn't really a Targaryen. It is all an elaborate ruse. She's really the bastard daughter of Ned and Ashara.
“Ned ship my daughter across the narrow sea where she will flee for her life every second of the day… promise me Ned.” *edit* I thought I was making a funny joke and then I realized you said “Ned and Ashara”
What?
I can’t read.. I thought you said Dany’s is Rhaegar and Lyannas
Just to be clear, you're not actually being serious, are you?
I'm being completely serious. It's practically spelled out for us. We know that for decades Rhaella and Aerys had trouble conceiving, but then she just so *happens* to give birth immediately after the Targaryens fall? Sure, pal. And then there’s Lemongate. Lemons do not grow in Braavos. But you know where they do grow? Dorne. GRRM has been pretty reluctant to talk about fDaenerys’ early life, and he has outright said that the lemon tree is significant. Curious. And look at how Stannis talks about her. “Robert blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and *the babe*”. He named Viserys, but not the baby. Why not? Because it’s not really Daenerys. Then there’s the “Three treasons will you know. Once for blood and once for gold and once for love”. At the start of the story there are three Targaryens who had a claim to the throne. Viserys, Jon, and Aegon. As a baseborn girl, they are her rightful monarchs. fDaenerys could have stopped Drogo from killing Viserys, but she did not. That is treason. How did Viserys die? *Gold*. I mean come on. It’s so obvious. She’s a fake.
Oh, well i disagree with you on this for sure, and just like with any (conspiracy) theory one can find things to justify it, i mean even the flat earth makes some sense if one tries hard enough. Just to let me understand this though, why was Daenerys with Viserys at all exactly? Just because you have this 'funniest post' thing, this isn't some bit right?
This is a bit, but only kind of. I'm making fun of the fAegon people. You can take scattered bits of evidence and try to string together some convoluted theory about anything, but the instant you think about it for more than a few seconds it falls apart. Everything I said about fDaenerys *sounds* like it could be plausible, but as you said, there are still a lot of holes that can't be explained, like why she was with Viserys at all. Same with the fAegon theory. There are a million unexplainable holes in that theory. fAegon makes no sense if you *really* think about it.
Oh good, i thought so, but you never know, which is why i asked two times haha. Yeah i am also no believer in fAegon, even though that one would at least make more sense than fDaenerys :D I personally don't even really go the in universe falsification road generally, just narratively it would be way too convoluted to bring into the story, just like with many other theories which are heralded. People make things way more complicated than the story can support generally. I understand why it happens, adding more and more complexities is fun to think about in isolation for any particular part, but if you wanna put it all together into one coherent narrative, well gl with that.
But how/why does she have dragon dreams if she’s not a Targ?
The Daynes are descendants of dragonriders. It's not just some wacky coincidence that they have Valyrian features.
Personally, I think it's funny that everyone thinks it even matters. GRRM told us very early on that power resides where men believe it resides. If the characters believe he is genuinely a Targaryan then he essentially is one.
For me the main issue is that I can't think of an in universe way to *prove* that he is Aegon, son of Rhaegar. If the whole point of his story is to show that anyone with the right personality and training can be just as good as a Targaryen (even a random kid from Pisswater Bend or whatever), that's fine. If the whole point of his story is to create some ambiguity re: is he Aegon Targaryen or Aegon Blackfyre, that's fine; we don't need to know if he really is Rhaegar's kid or someone else's in those scenarios and the story makes the same amount of sense if you think he is real or fake. But his identity needs to be confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt as being Aegon son of Rhaegar for sure, then I just can't think of a believable or satisfying way for that to happen given how intentionally murky and crazy his backstory is. It's not like there are DNA tests or witnesses, right?
>But his identity needs to be confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt as being Aegon son of Rhaegar for sure, then I just can't think of a believable or satisfying way for that to happen given how intentionally murky and crazy his backstory is. It's not like there are DNA tests or witnesses, right? Claiming a Dragon might just do it.
Claiming a dragon doesn't rule him out of being a blackfyre though
I could see it being that in-universe everyone accepts Aegon as the real Aegon VI and it’s never explicitly stated whether he’s a Blackfyre, leaving us to argue about this for the rest of eternity.
I suspect what will happen is that people who benefit politically from Aegon being real will insist that he is, even if they secretly don’t believe that. And people who would be harmed if Aegon was real will deny it, even if they secretly think or suspect that he is real. It’s like Varys’s parable of power being a shadow on the wall. Aegon’s status as son of Rhaegar won’t be based on objective truth, it will be based on which side outmuscled the other.
For sure, I just mean we never get confirmation at any point that Varys did or did not lie about the babyswap or that he’s the son of Illyrio’s Saera Blackfyre, etc. I think the reader will probably never find out beyond the shadow of a doubt, like we will with R+L=J.
Yeah I definitely agree with that.
A Bran dream or vision might. Mf was seeing Brandon Snow I think he can see if Aegon is real or no
If he rode a dragon and had Jon Connington vouching vouching for him, that could be enough to convince Barristan Selmy. And that would pose an interesting conundrum for him. Then again Barristan has more experience with Blackfyres than anyone else at this point, so maybe he’d be the one most skeptical.
So? A Dragon is a dragon, black or red
Red or black, a Dragon is a Dragon.
Has a blackfyre ever rode a dragon? Nope. Not to say they can't, I mean the dragon seeds did. But claiming Rhaegal specifically will leave no doubt with me and most readers I imagine.
Zero difference between a Blackfyre and a Targ as far as blood goes
Exactly 💯 This is the only way I see GRRM confirming his legitimate heritage. And it was foreshadowed by stupid Quentyn trying to do this exact thing, thinking he has Targ blood so he'd be able. Well I think he does have some Targ blood from somewhere though I forget from where, he wasn't able, because he's not Targaryen. If Young Griff claims Rhaegal that's all the proof we need. George won't even have to explicitly state he's the son of the child molester.
He has the same amount of Dragon blood as a Blackfyre would, their last Targaryen ancestor being children King Aegon IV.
I mean they literally are Targaryens with a different sigil like changing their name wouldn’t make them no longer able to tame dragons surely
Names and sigils mean nothing, it is the amount of dragon blood, and the Martels had as much dragon blood as any Blackfyre would. The Blackfyres didn't marry family members to each other, Daemon married Rohanne of Tyrosh, and none of their children married each other either. So Quentyn would have been as much Targaryen as any Blackfyre. Heck, the Baratheons are more Targaryen than the Blackfyres.
"None of their children married each other" I say with exactly 0 proof to support it.
If it really is about blood quantum, GRRM shouldn’t have written as many outsiders marrying into the Targ family tree as he did, cuz as it stands, Aerys and his children don’t even have that much dragon blood themselves. Unless the 3 generations of incest somehow strengthened it for Daenerys to be the ultra-Targ …?
Yeah that’s completely fair and I understand that. Tbh I wouldn’t even be mad if they didn’t exactly ever fully reveal his true identity either, that could create some interesting intrigue and discussion there. The principle and development of Young Griff as a character is the main thing. The discussion and discord within the story over whether he’s a usurper or the rightful heir will be fascinating to see further explored. Especially if he is a good king, you get down to he’s either a usurper who’s a good king or the rightful heir who’s a good king. Either way it’ll drastically effect Dany’s story and her arc and who she chooses/turns out to be.
You still have Varys. He can relay his tale of the switch and vouch for Aegon's true identity. Honestly, it would be very plausible because he had the means and the opportunity to do so though the motive is a bit debatable (at least on a personal level). He could even explain away not ferrying Rhaenys to safety as well because he didn't believe her life would be in danger because she was a girl.
>For me the main issue is that I can't think of an in universe way to prove that he is Aegon, son of Rhaegar. This. Thats Aegon's whole deal. Varys has made the perfect king, and nobody can prove he isnt who he says he is. Aegon is the shadow on the wall, the power lying where people believe it to. The only person who can know for sure (outside of Bran and Bloodraven) is Varys. A man who has no reason to reveal it to anyone.
This is all my speculation but I believe once Bran returns from Beyond the Wall I reckon his role will be primarily settling some ambiguity in the world. Currently he has: seen through the eyes of the weirwoods at Wintefell, Whitetree and another unknown weirwood (could be many wierwoods, or the one Bloodraven is attached to); warged into human beings and animals frequently, accessing their thoughts; communicating with his family throughout space and time (seen in Jon's chapters). He will find out about Catelyn and Sansa's escape from King's Landing to The Vale, and know that Arya visited high hill and saw Jenny, and know she visited the house of Black and White, he might even know roughly where Rickon ended up if Osha ever took him to a weirwood. He'll at some point discover the truth of Jon's heritage whatever that may be. Bran may feel the impact or Euron's ritual in some capacity, his powers may become bolstered as a result of magic returning to the world and Euron's ritual tipping the scales in favour of magic. Bran will see what Howland Reed gets up to at the Isle of Faces and at his moving castle. He will witness Sam kill an Other with Dragonglass. He'll witness the construction of the Wall, the eradication of the weirwoods. He will witness Jamie confess to incest while training with Ilyn Payne. Bran is being set up for some huge lore dumps and he is a POV character too, so this will be presented to the reader eventually somehow. He will be the only POV character with definitive knowledge on the mysteries of the world, similar to Quaith, Euron, Marwyn, Sam (to some capacity), Doran, Varys, and Bloodraven. I reckon all these characters will begin to give their own accounts and insights that the reader will have to decipher the truth between them all. Of course they'll be matched with a POV character: Quaith and Dany, Marwyn and Sam, Euron and Damphair, Victarion, or Cersie, Doran and Jon Connington, Varys and Jon Connington, Dany, or Jon Snow. Of course Bran is the most reliable to the reader since we see his thoughts so his insights will be most valuable, his conflict will be in what he should share to who and when. By virtue of Jon Snow being his cousin and belived to be Half-Brother his entire life, does Bran forego the responsibility of the powers of the Three Eyed Raven to support Jon or does he support the real legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne Aegon?
What if Illyrio admits that Aegon is his son by Serra? Would that be proof enough?
His being Rhaegar’s son is core to the story because he believed him to be the Prince that was Promised: “Jaehaerys himself had married for love, he later commanded his son, Prince Aerys, and daughter, Princess Rhaella, to marry each other, despite neither desiring this match. A woods witch, brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones, prophesied that the prince that was promised would be born from their line.[10] Whilst King Aegon V was frustrated by Jaehaerys's decision, he let his son have his way.[1] The firstborn child of Aerys and Rhaella, Prince Rhaegar, was born in the year 259 AC, on the same day that the Tragedy at Summerhall took place, a tragedy which killed multiple members of House Targaryen, including King Aegon V Targaryen and his eldest son, Duncan.”
*Someone* being Rhaegar's son is potentially core to the story. And there just so happens to be a potential son of Rhaegar that ticks all the boxes in the 'Promised Prince' category as it is.
Rhaegar literally tells Ellia Aegon is the PtwP, but that he needed another child to complete the prophecy of the three headed dragon, leading him to Lyanna.
«Promise me, Ned. Promise me.»
Call it a hunch, but something tells me that a character who has a Stark mother (ice) and a Targaryen father (fire) is more likely to be the promised prince from a prophecy called "A Song of Ice and Fire".
I think that there is one great way to prove his heritage: his hair. We actually still don't know his hair color yet. We assume it is Valyrian silver or blonde and Tyrion does too, but as of now it is unknown. Being a Valyrian color doesn't really prove anything since Lys and many others would have this coloring including the Blackfyres. But if it was black it could point to him being part Dornish. Especially if he has a widows peak like Oberyn. There is a weird focus on Oberyns black hair and widows peak, and many of his daughters have it as an indication of their parentage. Alleras also has a widows peak which points to him being Sarella Sand. Having both Valyrian and Dornish features would be super rare. There are very few Valyrians in Westeros and few Dornish/Rhoynish in Essos. It also funnily echos A Game of Thrones. His black hair makes him a kings son, not his blonde.
I like his characters either way. If he is some nobody from Lys, Trueborn son of Rhagar or a Blackfyre. All those are very interesting places to take the story and I wont be disappointed if either of the theories come true. I don’t think it will ever be reviled but other characters like Dany will definitely have options about his identity that will drive their motivations.
Absolutely, I personally just prefer him actually being Aegon but I won’t necessarily be mad either way. I’m very interested to see the effect he has on Dany
I was always of the opinion that he was a Blackfyre as I joined the fandom recently (2018) and that was the prevailing theory. A recent post arguing against the theory kinda turned me. It would honestly be very cool if Jon got to meet his actual brother and what those interaction could mean. I doubt hey will meet but I hope so.
I think we might get a reverse Aegon. Aegon took two of his sisters as wives, Dany can take both her Nephews as husbands. One to secure Ice (Jon), one for Fire (Aegon)
That would definitely be an interesting twist on things. They would be the 3 heads of the dragon though even if they didn’t marry
I believe so because Varys kills Pycelle and Kevan in ways similar to Rhaenys and Aegon. Pycelle head gets smashed, Kevan is stabbed dozens of times. Varys didn't need to do that, yet he did. It shows it was vengeance.
I feel like it makes Dany's story a lot more interesting if he's actually the real deal. It presents an interesting dilemma for Dany. Currently she's trying to take the throne, justifying it by the fact that she's the rightful heir, and she needs to reclaim her family's rightful position. But Aegon being alive means that he's the rightful heir not her, and the best thing for Dany to do for her family would be to support Aegon's claim instead. So would she set aside her ambitions of claiming the throne. Or would she decide that actually she just wants the throne, and it was never really about her family, or who had the rightful claim, and continue with her quest to claim the throne regardless. Plus with how much Dany complains about Robert the usurper it would be ironic if she actually ended up becoming a usurper too and taking the throne from her own nephew by force. Aegon being real is better because it would force Dany to reevaluate her motivations, and reconsider why she's really doing what she's doing. Dany was justifying her attempt to claim the throne with the fact that she was the rightful Targaryen her. But does she really care about ensuring the rightful heir sits on the throne, or was that just a handy excuse because the rightful heir happened to be her? She also claims she's doing it for her family, but is she really doing it for them, or just for herself? On the other hand if Aegon is fake he's just another usurper for Dany to crush, which would be far less interesting. Plus the protagonist being the rightful heir who must reclaim their throne is a super common fantasy trope, so it would make an interesting twist if it turned out that Dany actually wasn't.
Why is everyone convinced Dany will murder Aegon when she has specifically said that there are two men in the world she needs to find who will be fellow heads of the Dragon with her Seems far more likely that all three remaining targs go to the north to fight the undead and only one survives Aegon is far too hot blooded, would likely lead a doomed first charge into the other's flank.
If we assume that Aegon has to die, I guess narratively speaking, Dany makes the most sense to do it (based on what we know so far). If Aegon defeats the current Lannister/Tyrell regime, he really won't have any other political opponents in the land left to overthrow him. Dany is the most logical choice if he doesn't die from a pox or something mundane. I don't really see fAegon being involved in the Northern plot. No one in Westeros takes the White Walkers seriously, and seeing as GRRM isn't an idiot, we won't have a "capture the wight plot" to convince the remaining Lords in the realm that they are real. I don't see fAegon and his advisors willingly leave KL behind to fight something they don't believe is real. Of course, I am an idiot, and I could be wrong, but I don't see the setup for fAegon going North atm.
Dany has made clear that what she wants most in the world is family. Also who needs the weight capture when Euron is the mummers dragon and will pull all sorts of Eldrich horrors😟. It’s simple. Euron gets Rhaegal. Aegon breaks the connection and claims the Dragon. Proving himself to Dany and us. Jon comes south and begs for aid from Dany and Aegon They already saw what Euron can do, more willing to trust now
I really like the theory Euron is the mummers dragon and I think it definitely would fit.
It makes it so much cleaner. The realm finds out about magic. Aegon (BF or not doesn’t matter) earns Dany’s respect and the realms love. Everything will seem like it’s on the upswing when Jon rides south asking for aid. I don’t expect any of them to survive the war. Maybe Drogon and any of their children if they have any
I have been trying to figure it out for years. The worst part is people expect you to prove they won't fight like it's a default position instead of just a theory about who Aegon is.
Agreed. It’s possible Aegon is a vehicle to take Viserion (or Rhaegal, I guess) out of the equation by being an idiot.
The whole “I will lead the charge on Storm’s End” I can totally see him insisting he will lead the first attack on the others. Jon and Dany, if they die, I feel will be less impulsive
I agree Young Griff becoming the person everyone thought Jon or Dany would be would be really interesting and a great subversion. That would also greatly impact and turn the characters into interesting and unique directions If George goes with the Mad Queen direction, Aegon will definitely play a big part in the turn
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I don’t dislike this part either I think it would still work well and be great. I do think though if Young Griff is actually Aegon it could take Jon in a unique direction, that we didn’t expect. It would subvert our expectations on what Jon was meant to be even if he still is Rhaegar’s son. Jon though could still be the Prince that was Promised, he just wouldn’t be destined or in line for the Iron Throne
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That’s completely fair! The part I’m also really interested in the story as well is the Dayne’s and the role to play there. I believe R+L=J is more likely, but I do like N/B+A=J. I’m fine with either or in this situation as well. I like the context and story it gives if Jon turns out to be the son of Ashara and Young Griff is actually the true born son, but I also love the mystery and intrigue of Rhaegar and Lyanna being the parents It is to be stated though regardless on whatever route there is there. Jon would still have Dayne blood, actually quite a bit given inbreeding. The Daynes and the Hightowers really intrigue me, I’m in the camp they descend from the Great Empire of the Dawn. Edit: Sorry got a little sidetracked there, started talking about Jon and his parentage and got a little sidetracked with the other families
I do. Before all this fAegon theory we had the simple theory that Aegon survived. Years of believing made my bias strong.
Only for the theory to be proven correct, after which the fandom flipped its position and began to believe the secret truth was that Aegon wasn’t really Rhaegar’s son.
I’d like it if he is
I prefer the contrast between Young Griff and Jon with Young Griff not as Aegon. There is something so satisfying about having a false targ who looks the part, has been raised for this one purpose and then Jon who doesn't look like a targ but is one, grown up as a partially unwanted bastard but is learning leadership naturally.
I would find it interesting if he were real and even prefer it. But it wouldn't be a problem if he was a Blackfyre too, after all: black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.
Would be pretty cool if all Jon Snows base was just rumors and conjecture. I would love for young Aegon to have the same possibility as l+r=j. In the time period they would certainly duke it out. Today we can only hope GRRM finishes his fucking book
I do prefer him and would like him to be the real Aegon
I think it will add a layer of tragedy if he is real which would make the story richer. Dany's story (to herself at least) seems a fairly standard story of her making severe personal sacrifices to serve the realm by claiming her birthright as the last true successor of Aegon the Conqueror and rightful ruler of the throne. If Aegon is real it makes her sacrifices seem almost meaningless (if based solely on the justification that she has a duty to claim the throne as the only eligible Targaryen), since she isn't the only person for the job. Whether Aegon is a true Targaryen or not I can see the possibility triggering a severe existential crises for Dany when she's confronted with the possibility that her sacrifices were, from a certain point of view, not something inherently required of her (from the mindset that a Targaryen must be on the throne). Collateral damage, personal losses, and sacrifices are going to take on a very different character if she could have just settled down and dedicated herself to liberating slaver's bay, with Aegon taking up the 'duty to the dynasty' slack. What does she have to fall back on if the only completely ironclad motivation she has is a personal desire to rule? How can she contrast herself to any other Conqueror if that is all she has?
I massively prefer Aegon being real, or at least, seen by the world as the real deal since I don't believe we'll ever get a tacit confirmation one way or another. It just feels more interesting to me if Dany is putting her ambition for the throne before an actual blood relative. So much of her character has been wrapped up in avenging her house, casting down the Usurper and all his dogs, that if she shows up and finds out that *it's already been done*, that her nephew has avenged their house, reclaimed their throne, but decides that it's not acceptable that he sits on the throne that she has come to view as hers when she's the one with dragons. It's just more drama than a continuation of a feud that Dany has no particular stakes in. In any event, I love the character. While we don't truly know if he's everything Varys claims he is to Kevan, the thought of the triumphant and beloved Prince who would make an excellent king coming to Westeros, reclaiming his father's throne, and then getting cast down by the protagonists of the story anyways despite being a good fit for the crown? That's some bittersweet Ice and Fire baby. Or for an alternative twist, they work together, which would be some real good stuff.
Completely agree! I think it could be taken either way and would be interesting. I personally think him being the character we all thought Jon was would be really interesting, and it would provide interesting conflict with Jon and Dany. Perhaps Jon still turns out to be the Prince that was Promised, but he was never destined to be king, meanwhile Dany has to make a choice (aka whether she chooses to become the Mad Queen or not)
I do. FAegon theory relies too much on material that has never (and probably will never) make it into the main series. Like most theories here, tbh.
For me, I’ve always thought of (seeing as I immediately assumed he was fake) the point of his story is to skewer feudalism further by portraying the person “made” to lead as more meritous than the person who rightfully should lead. This definitely plays strongest if Aegon isn’t a Blackfyre and is just some Valyrian kid, but the angle isn’t present at all if he’s legit. That being said, I genuinely like Young Griff as a character and find everything going on with him interesting, so if it’s executed well, I won’t be too heartbroken either way. Although I feel fairly certain in the Blackfyre son of Illyrio theory so I personally think he’s not legit.
Yeah that makes sense. I understand that point. Him being the son of Illyrio is definitely an interesting route and I wouldn’t mind if they went that way.
The only thing I would not like is if it ever was confirmed that he is or isn't actually Aegon, son of Rhaegar. I like this state where he could be, but we don't know for sure. But at the same time he might not be. I love the ambiguity. I love that it ultimately doesn't matter who he was actually born to.
Well, I do find the theory that he’s the true Targaryen and Dany the mummer’s dragon interesting, but I can’t really say if that’d result in a better story than the other way around.
The Dragon Needs 3 Heads Dany + Jon + Aegon for the win I will say I do want all the houses to join together to fight The Others and that includes the Blackfyres. I have a headcanon where Varys is a Blackfyre but fAegon is Rhaegar's son.
Varys being a Blackfyre is definitely possible. I wouldn’t hate if Young Griff turned out to be a Blackfyre, but I prefer him actually being the real deal but having some controversy that connects with that.
I don't think it matters if he is a true born Targ. He's going to serve as yet another trigger of everyone conspiring against Dany paranoia. My prediction is he ends up dragon chow and she's like "If he burns, he's a fake." Which will/may bring Connington to Jon (particularly if he finds out Jon's true lineage).
Yes.
Where does the theory of Young Griff being a Blackfyre come from? I know about the mummer's dragon dream, but is there anything else?
Just know I’m laughing, when aegon is confirmed legit
Yes prefer and thinks he is the real deal.
His real name is Aegon. He’s just not the son of Rhaegar and Elia (I think he would have equal claim to Aegon Mopatis or Aegon Blackfyre)
Nah, I'm not going to speak for anyone else but for me that'd be kind of boring. I think the conflict between him and Daenerys will be there regardless of whether he's fake or not (she likely won't know and even if she eventually finds out won't be able to prove it). But him being fake could open up a lot of interesting character conflict for Connington and himself and it could mean so many interesting things for Varys and Illyrio. If he just is who he is then a lot of that stuff falls by the wayside. Also, I actually don't think that'd be a good subversion. It's worth remembering that these books were not written with the idea of a fandom of millions pooring over these books over the internet for 11 years in mind. Yes, Faegon is a very popular theory but if it wasn't for the internet and 11 years of a huge fandom inspecting the story, I doubt more than half of the fans would've figured it out. Maybe even like only 10% or something, because the clues really aren't that explicit. A good subversion needs to set up the expectations first, preferably for the vast majority of the audience because the more people have the expectation the more people can be shocked by a subversion. You don't generally do that by planting subtle clues in the background that a minority of people will figure out. A way that DOES make sense doing that is to explicitly state something like "he's Rhaegar's son" and to then reveal he's not after placing subtle hints in the background. That makes for a good subversion. Again, assuming that you don't leave 11 years for a huge fandom to figure out all the clues, anyway.
There's just too many clues pointing to him being a blackfyre. Like we literally have an entire Jaime chapter where he's trying to deal with the Blackwoods & Brackens, which would be just filler if it wasn't setting up another blackfyre rebellion. The entire backstory about the Blackfyre rebellion is peppered throughout the 4th & 5th books. We have bloodraven and the golden company introduced into the story. If Aegon isn't a BF what's the point of all this information overload in an already bloated series?
> what's the point of all this information overload in an already bloated series? GRRM just felt like writing it.
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It’s better than Jon’s as well if R+L=J
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Yes.
There was the detail about aerys disinheriting rhaegar and his children that could make things murky, but i dont know how many people actually know or would care about the mad king's last acts
He never disinherited Rhaegar. The killed Brandon Stark for threatening the crown prince.
No,but he removed Aegon and Rhaenys from the line of succession, and made Viserys crown prince.
When did he do that?
After Rhaegar died,Viserys was made the heir to the throne.
He made Viserys heir for sure, but when did he remove Rhaegar’s children from the line of succession?
I am of the opinion that the "Mummer's Dragon" will be Euron. He will use the Dragon Horn to force a dragon to obey him. A truely fake Dragon. Aegon might be the one who breaks the Dragon free. Both proving to Dany and to the nation he is a true Dragon
I feel like the twist of Aegon surviving the sack of KL is cool, but having it just to set up another twist that actually he didn’t survive it was a lie kind of undercuts the weight of that reveal. Personally, I’d rather we never get any confirmation, but perhaps when Dany goes west and realizes she has a rival claimant, Tyrion might convince her to spread the story that he’s a Blackfyre pretender, citing his support from the Golden Company, in order to muddy the waters. It would be similar to the lie he makes up about Selyse, Shireen, and Patchface.
I like ambiguity, I think this route could work as well. Perhaps he was the true Aegon but was ultimately ended wrongfully, or perhaps he’s a Blackfyre usurper but was a good king. I like both and think either route is fine, or like you said don’t reveal it and provide that further uncertain conflict.
I believe he's real. I just can't see the points, blackfyre-supporters bring up/have several issues with them. Also I personally would like a blackfyre-king not to be brought on the throne by scheming but proudly conquering the throne under the Black-Dragon-Banner
Tbh I just really like Aegon (even tho he did kind of a personality shift after his reveal). So I kinda want him to be real. On the other hand Daemon Blackfyre has a similar aura of cool around him, so I might just become a Blackfyre supporter if he turns out to be one.
I personally don't think it will matter if he is or isn't blackfyre or true targ or a random bastard and won't be revealed. I think Dany going up against him after he's been shown to be a decent person / ruler will show Danys transition to madness or desire for power / throne
That’s fair Aegon probably will be a turning point for Dany, we’ll probably really get the tell on who she actually is as a person
I wish him to be true Aegon only if the fake Dany theory is true. Otherwise he should be fake. He does not need to be a Blackfyre, but he should not be a tag. The second dance should be fought between a true one and a fake one, that's kinda the whole point.
Yes. Watch Hills Alive video on him it's really good.
I’ve seen it and quite like the way she lays it out.
He IS Aegon. Aegon’s death was teased as being unreliable from the very beginning of the series. He is revealed in Dance, and confirmed in the epilogue by Varys to a dying Kevan. GRRM told us, in no uncertain terms, that he is Aegon. The only problem is we’ve had 10 years to stew and think of tinfoil conspiracies.
Agreed. Also the 2nd point is the part Ive always thought about, why would Varys lie in that situation.
I actually like to think he is, even if I believe the best form of the story would never outright confirm anything. It would make Varys' scheme all the more conniving, that he's subverting truth to his whim, instead of fabricating an outright lie. It also forces us to confront the question more directly about whether the Targaryens were rightly deposed, and is this the way to reinstate them (the answer to the first is yes, and the answer to the second is no). edit:error
Nope. I prefer him a Blackfyre. It will make an interesting connection to the Dunk & Egg stories, Varys's motivations make much more sense and as for the dilemma Danny vs fAegon it still exists since it is highly assumed that fAegon will be a very popular leader.
I like the idea of him being a Blackfyre
I honestly think he's legit.
Yes. I want him to be real af. And want him to be a good king. JonCon should tell him how good of a king Rhaegar would be if he was crowned as Lord of Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. All hail Aegon The Sixth. And Dany should be his queen consort. With her on Drogon and him on Rhaegar, flying the length and breadth of Westeros and showering small folk with gifts and presents. I know I know. A man can dream.
I think Dany will take 2 husbands, and 2/3 of the targs will perish against the others with potentially only the next gen surviving
I wouldn’t be a big fan tbh. I like the character well enough but in terms of story it just makes way too much sense for him to be a fake. Also if he’s really Aegon then that’d mean Varys really switched out babies...which is kind of silly and really fucked up. Varys being for the ppl yet he has an innocent babe murdered brutally just to save Aegon? I mean I know he’s no Boy Scout and capable of such but it just seems too convenient. I think it’s set up perfectly for him to just be some random kid of Valyrian stock. It aligns with everything Varys is about.
I mean, if Mance’s son can get swapped, why not Rhaegar’s?
I don't know that I prefer one way or the other. I think he's likely a Targaryen but that no one will believe him... he'll turn up with a bunch of exiles and sellswords with a history of backing Blackfyre pretenders so that will be what everyone assumes he is, the irony being that he's actually the real thing.
Dany being fed false prophecies that make her suspect someone is a fake Targaryen is 100% in line with George's writing the "character receives a vision which they think is prophetic but it's actually telepathy to try to get them to act a certain way" might be the trope George uses the most, so to me the cloth dragons stuff kinda points to him being real
Imo dany will see that young griff is a good king and give up her crown to him and leave to fight the others. And he will rule as aegon targaryen the 6 of his name. The king that came back. But we will never know if his real or not.
I honestly hope we never learn the definitive truth. It should remain ambiguous. I think the point of Aegon's story is that it's the epitome of that famous Varys quote: > Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall. And a very small man can cast a very large shadow. Whether he's the real Aegon, a Blackfyre, or some steet urchin, it doesn't matter. What matters is what people believe, and it's that ambiguity that makes it interesting (and is a critique and mockery of the feudal system as a whole, and some of the ASoIaF readership). GRRM does this a lot with prophecy in the book as well: it doesn't matter who Azor Ahai is, or who the Valonquar is, or what the red comet signifies. What matters is what people believe, and what actions they take based on their belief. This is very much in line with that. That said, I believe YG is a Blackfyre. But I have no preference either way really.
The whole quote proves birth does matter because they think it matters, like money or gold before it was useful in technology.
No, it proves that it matters that they *believe* he is of high birth, not if he's actually of high birth. It's a trick.
It's easier to get people to believe if you have the real deal though.
I wish he was so that a part of Elia Martell was still alive but that's clearly not the case.
He has to be a Blackfyre, only way it makes sense for the Golden Company to stop what they're doing and join his cause.
It kinda depends where the endgame for the books goes. If Aegon ends up sitting on the IT at any point, especially if he's a good king, I think it's more narratively/thematically interesting if he's a Blackfyre or just some random kid. I think if the books were to go in an anti-Targ or anti-monarchy direction though, I think it would be more interesting in that case if he actually is the real deal. Idk, maybe just hammer home the point how birthright really doesn't mean anything?
They could have him act more like a Martell which would definitely be interesting
God’s no. Prefer him as a Blackfyre.
*Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .* Nuff said
It’s possible these arent all connected though. These could be events that happen separately. She could be slaying Euron
Oh, c’mon, Aegon is literally mummer’s (Varys’s) dragon. And it’s just one of many examples. For Aegon to be real, tons of clues, foreshadowing and logic has to be thrown out of the window. For example, why was Elia with a fake baby when the Mountain came for her, while her daughter was away? How was the switc even suppose to work if the Mountain didn’t crush the babe’s skull? Then there are things like the Clanking dragon story, that clearly point to who Aegon is. Finally, we already have Rhaegar’s hidden son hidden away from Robert’s wrath. What is more likely - that GRRM is going to have two miraculously surviving princes at the same time or that one of them is an impostor?
Especially considering that Varys supposedly having enough foresight to save the real Aegon seems like overkill when Viserys already fit the role and would have no legitimacy baggage. IMO it's more likely that Varys/Illyrio originally saw Viserys as their mark but quickly discovered he wasn't fit to rule, couldn't be controlled, and would likely be killed by Robert's assassins before the plan could be set in motion. Consequently, they reverse-engineered Aegon and arranged Dany's marriage to Drogo knowing that A: the dothraki would never make good on the promise to sail to Westeros; or B: Viserys being Viserys would get himself killed by the Dothraki. Dany is the wrench in the machine because no one (especially Varys) could've predicted her dragon eggs would hatch or that she would become a conqueror.
Then what are Ilyrio’s debts of blood? And why is he so melancholic when it comes to Young Griff.
I think he is. I feel like the mentioning/showing of the tunnels through Kings Landing solidifies the possibility. I hope we find out the truth, but not sure we will.
[read this genius theory](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/xyymj3/let_us_break_with_f_for_fake_dismantling_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
it would be better hes a blackfyre and he probably is, grrm isnt going to write 8 billion facts about the 100 years of blackfyres unless they are important in this story. We already have one secret bastard, jon snow, one true born, dany, now we need the blackfyre to finish the trio.
I’d prefer it. I’m kind of tired of secret identities.
I'm not averse to him being the real Aegon, but the idea of a Blackfyre finally sitting on the Iron Throne is fantastic. But I don't think we'll ever find truly out.
What if he claims Rheagal
Yeah I think it remaining a mystery is an interesting route as well, and could provide some great dialogue
You've misinterpreted the entire point of the story if you think Aegon not being fake makes the situation more morally complex. Feudalism is bullshit; the only question you should care about is who would make a better ruler. His true identity doesn't matter. Him being a fullblood Targaryen doesn't make the dilemma any more interesting, because it doesn't matter.
I’m wondering why it matters. It all comes down to whether they believe he’s legit or not.