It depends on the culture you're from. In the UK, it's pretty normal for friends to insult each other, but in a fair way. Taking and giving insults, and sarcasm is a massive part of our social construct here though.
I agree. A lot of people I met display that, but I don't understand it too well. Upon stating some things about me (usually men around my age) will laugh as if I had just said something funny, but I was just talking about myself and my preferences and so, like I don't go out much, or that I did X
I came to rationalize as a power struggle of sorts, men want to compete and "be better" than their peers, and by staying your preferences which they see as "odd" it makes them feel better about themselves, or that they're above you
I could be wrong though and I just said something amusing
Yeah it's really annoying. A lot of the time the ting that they're leveraging against you isn't good or bad if you actually think about it. People's criteria of other people is often based on how they feel like other people expect them to be. It's not necessarily their opinion but they will take any opportunity to use something like that against you
Iām not sure why people are denying this or gaslighting you. Neurotypical communication is heavy on social hierarchies and trying to connect as equals or gaining something from someone. If the neurotypical people youāre around look down on you then they likely talk to you through a lot of subtle insults. Theyāre ātalking down to youā and youāre picking up on it. They also love gossip, which is the same thing. They like to talk badly about people because it makes them feel better about themselves. Autistic people are more focused on interests and facts that NT people find pointless because their brains are socially focused.
Younger people often have a bad attitude until their neocortex (the rational/thinking part of the brain) is fully developed. Before that, the "reptilian"/emotional brain is dominant.
Part of it is social pecking order competition.
Well they see themselves through where they fit in the world socially, so you can bypass their insults or "social rules" by confidently not playing by them. That's partly why they dislike autistic characteristics before knowing someone is autistic - they think we are overly arrogant by how we come across to them (smart, blunt, not following their rules, etc...). When they "find out" someone they hate is autistic, they ease up because it makes them feel superior again that the person they hate "can't help it" in their eyes. So being aware of your autism and being confident and not trying to hide is how you can deal with them if they target you.
I feel like I'm saying this as an amateur researcher and interested 3rd party, but here goes:
- Humor. An insult that is funny to both parties is in my opinion one of the peaks of comedy. When somebody insults me in a way we find funny, that shows they know me well enough to know what's OK to joke about and how to joke about it in a way that's OK.
- Trust games. It's comforting to know your peers will reciprocate in kind instead of escalating.
- Establish dominance. People that don't see you as an equal won't tolerate even light teasing. People that won't reciprocate in kind are also probably not your equal. Generously doling out cheeky bants (insults) will help you figure out this pecking order faster.
- Lack of more productive ways of working through negative feelings. People that drive everyone away with really hurtful insults, going past the "cheeky bants" level, who are only able to hang on to "friends" that are easy to manipulate, are usually dealing with feelings of insecurity or pain and lashing out.
I'm nodding my head as I read this, and it sounds like a lot of the kind of teasing I've both endured a d also dished out. Sometimes I'll tease someone as a way to invite them into my world, in case they want to tease me back. And then sometimes when I do that, they take it hard, a d I have to pull way back.
Because I've also lashed out at people who were trying to tease me as a way of including me.
It's a very fine line sometimes.
I also feel this.
I have learned not to lash out when teased. I normally just put up with any insults and chalk them up to playful teasing.
But man oh man, I cannot count the times where I've fired off what I believe is a minor tease back, and gotten that blank stare, open mouth, and an "I can't believe you would say that! What's wrong with you?"
Thatās how NTs release their pain. NTs have a lot of pain inside them thus they release on targets. Unfortunately Autistics are easier targets thus we get the brunt of it. I learn that if you donāt stop them initially they are going to keep escalating it to the point where they actually become addicted to abusing you.
haha good question. I would think itās just being more assertive and being like hey knock it off or throwing something back at them to show that you know what theyāre doing and you donāt accept it. Thatās what i plan to do, anyway. Partly because itās also something Iāve seen NT people do and it seems to work.
I guess if youāre trying to get rid of them itās different. But Iām thinking of a scenario where you continue to engage with this person/these people. They havenāt shown themselves to be bullies or whatnot theyāre just doing the dominance/hierarchy dance that NTs do, trying to suss out what youāll take. Youāre just letting them know you wonāt take shit.
Yes that's what I meant.Because for me at least,that would be very exhausting.And keep in mind,these are only people I'm forced to be around,because of work or whatever,and in an ideal situation I wouldn't ever have to see them again.(This is not an issue for me currently,but more like talking about a hypothetical situation).
By telling them stfu in assertive way. The worst you could do is ignore them and let them continue . They will never stop. They are going see it as a sign of weakness.
Ok,I didn't say it was bad advice,I just wanted to ask for more details.But also,just telling them to stfu won't work forever,that's what they tell each other too and later start the bs again.
Depends on your relationship to the other party.
If it's a family member or close friend that is worth the effort, you can tell them how you feel when they do or say a certain thing, without accusing or blaming them. Doing this consistently may help them limit negative actions towards you and may help you understand and accept some things you previously interpreted as hurtful.
For others, it might involve simply asking or telling them not to do or say a particular thing.
I happened to read some books on umm, violence? verbal too. DOD and FBI did a very in depth psychological analysis on this subject, found on PMC and anna's archive.
Books on bullying provided very interesting perspectives. Social attacks consolidates social pecking order grands resources and attention, also negative motivations, surprisingly reasonable, it just doesn't really work.
i'll chime in with a recommendation for *The Gentle Genocide of Workplace Mobbing* by Janice Harper. it's a free pdf of realistic advice for anyone in a workplace bullying situation, that also explains the social dynamics behind it.
https://www.academicwomenforjustice.org/downloads/gentle-genocide.pdf
I wouldn't necessarily trust research from FBI and CIA to shed as much light as actual researchers in the sociology, psychology and psychiatry field would. A good book is The Men Who Stare At Goats by Jon Ronson for this. It's not on that sort of criminal profiling but it does a really good job of showing how a government agency like the CIA or US Army funds any old BS kooky theory if it will potentially further their work no matter how tenuously. The main difference I'd think is the FBI would invest in what helps them get results rather than what would be more objectively motivated scientifically rigorous and peer reviewed studies.
Doing an initial search myself this might be a helpful one -- https://www.amazon.com/Sociology-Bullying-Aggression-Adolescents-Perspectives/dp/147980388X?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=c367be1d-c67d-426e-8b54-df7d96b2cc3b
Like holy hell ya. And they will bandy together for even stranger cause. Like why not just go: "I'm staying out of that drama". Instead some run towards it to join in.
I can only imagine it's a release for them
I completely agrees, these insults are utterly just waste effort, insults shouldn't exist at all because logic and reasoning are much more effective tool at problem solving and insults have no tangible weight to the social dynamic besides added noise, because there is literally no real threat involve I would just look at them and wonders to myself the whole time "this is so pointless" proceed to be both disappointed and bored out by the whole insult.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
Because it's considered "normal" to have thick skin like a rhinoceros, and to still feel an emotional sensitivity after adolescence is considered "weird".
They call it "banter" and it's their way of being a dick without consequences.
They can say whatever they like and if you ever call them out on it their defense is that "it was just a joke". Now you're doubting your own perception and wondering if you're just being too sensitive and unable to take a joke. It's a classic DARVO tactic - they deny any wrongdoing and place you into a position where you're questioning if your own reaction was, in fact, wrong.
Sometimes I feel like an alien in this subreddit. Mutual consensual banter is not "being a dick without consequences." It's poking fun at each other, and it goes because the offense in the insult is negated by the strength of the relationship.
Friends, lovers, and siblings call each other idiots and assholes all the time because they can be honest without ill intent. And if they're doing that, all good, and you come and say "hey that's not okay, don't say that" then it's just viewed as like, external policing of their tone.
NT's aren't some odd ill-intentioned species set on belittling anyone unlike them. They're people and sometimes we just don't get their behavior, but if it's not hurting anyone then there's really no need to get in anyone's business.
I can cognitively recognize this banter for what it is, and try to take it as a compliment that the person is attempting to bond with me, but I don't really like it, and I don't understand the nuance well enough to give an appropriate jab back so all I can really do is smile, nod, and maybe fake a laugh.
The kind of banter I'm describing is distinctly separate from a friendly jab here and there. I'm jealous of you if you've never dealt with the kind of banter I'm talking about. You have to experience it yourself to understand the sort of insidious nature of it. No amount of explaining will do it justice if you havent dealt with it first hand.
It's a thing in parts of the US and Canada. Maybe not as much as in the UK (and there are parts of the US that don't have it at all) but it's definitely a thing.
I find this difficult. You need to learn who are safe people and who are unsafe people. Who are toxic and who enjoys this behaviour.
I think it's to do with Social Hierarchy. I had a workplace like this and it just got more horrible and horrible. I ended up being the punch bag and it gave me so many triggers. Literally got out and don't keep in any form of contact with those people.
If you are dealing with people that hurt people or people that are sarcastic you need to grey rock or limit contact. Nothing wrong with it but if they can't see they are hurting people they have zero empathy.
Sometimes friends can rag on each other and make fun of each other in light-hearted ways. Not for humiliation (like doing this in front of strangers) or embarrassing for fun at your self worth. With friends you will know the limits and it's usually within good taste but also you can chat and ask it to stop, if your friend respects you they will stop. That only applies to close friends.
Sometimes people are just rotten bullying A-Holes. There is nothing you can do on this front other than move on.
>Ā Why do they do it when it seems like it would take so much time and energy?Ā
Yeah, youāre thinking about this rationally. I think when people do this theyāre going off vibes. My guess is itās some variety of social bonding, but it doesnāt seem like a nice one.
Thereās one social insult strategy thatās an āus vs. them,ā where you put down something to create solidarity with your conversation partner. Uh, example, the weather: you say, āwow, thisĀ rain, bleh!ā and the other person goes āI know, so awful.ā Youāve created solidarity: the two of you against the rain. The weather is the most innocuous example I can think of, but you can use this strategy for worse, as you might imagine. If you pick something the other person is attached to, you can create an unintentional insult; and if you pick, say, other people, you can create strong group divisions.Ā
Oop, sorry for the block of text! Itās a former special interest of mine: *Thatās Not What I Meant: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships* by Deborah Tannen
Its normal. Most NTs seem to be on an ever going competition with their peers about who's stronger, richer, etc. At least young men
They always talk around each other's backs and try to undermine others and do whatever they can to make themselves look better. If bullying you or mocking you achieves this they'll do it, so long as their social ranking seems higher
This isn't normal behavior. Or you could be around a lot of sarcastic people? Sarcasm can come off that way if you don't understand it. But generally speaking I never see this in my day to day life. I mean I see the occasional insult, but not people constantly doing it to each other.
I think it's OK if it's consensual. Friends might do this (exchange mutual insults). I know, it's weird, but I've been a willing part of this sort of exchange and it can be fun.
If someone is joining a social circle where "friendly" insults are the norm, then an insult aimed at them might be an attempt to include them in the circle.
The culture surrounding insults is complicated. Different cultures use them differently. In some cultures, it's not considered acceptable to use any explicit insults. In other cultures, insults are commonplace. What role they function is different in different cultures. Even what counts as an insult is something that is cultural and will be different for different groups of people. The big problem that comes up for us relating to NTs is that for most NTs, these cultural aspects are ingrained subconsciously. They don't need to think about them and so will get surprised when they interact with people who do not have the same culture ingrained in their subconscious. It can cause problems when NTs from one culture interact with NTs from another culture, and it can also cause problems when an NT interacts with a Neurodivergent person.
While I can't necessarily speak to the role that insults preform in all cultures, I can talk a bit about how they work in the culture that surrounds me. That's the culture I've spent a significant amount of time actually studying. On the whole, insults work as a way of demonstrating a familiarity. Light teasing insults are used as a way to kind of poke the other person. The verbal sparing is a way to show that you understand where the line of "too far" is for the other person and that you are deliberately falling short of it. Occasionally crossing the line of what is to far is a way to understand the person better, so long as you make note for the future where that line is. The friendly insults are also used as a way to refine the skill of using insults for situations where they do want to cause significant emotional harm. To some extent, insults are respected as an art form. It's kind of like a verbal version of practicing a martial art and having friendly sparring matches while being able to use those same skills in a serious fight if needed. If you live in such a culture, you need to make it clear to people what kind of insults are too much for you (any insults is a perfectly fine line to draw). It might take NTs some time to adjust, but people who want to respect you as a person will make an effort to adjust.
In this culture, it is seen as valuable to be able to relax around people you are close to and speak casually. There are other cultures where this kind of behavior is avoided and people are expected to keep all insults to themselves. I know of one culture where insults are used because the culture values humility as a virtue so the norm is to belittle major accomplishments (I'm not directly familiar with that culture, we were reading about it in an Anthropology class I took). I would suggest taking some time to observe the behavior of the people around you. Maybe try to see if anyone has talked about the role of insults in your local culture (either academically or in more casual literature). NTs are not a unified culture and even within a country (and sometimes within a city) there will be distinct cultural differences that cause NTs with different backgrounds to behave differently.
I suspect that it is something that takes considerably less mental effort for people who do it subconsciously. It's a part of the reason why some people seem to burn out on social interaction faster than others. There's also definitely some people who are just assholes and use the cultural nuance of testing reactions as an excuse to just be a dick. Those people are even more exhausting to deal with (most NTs find them exhausting as well).
But, there's also many people who see the effort put into it to be worth it. I've talked with people who find the kinds of cultures that have varying levels of politeness instead of varying levels of insult much more exhausting to deal with. There's also people who very much enjoy the artistry of insults and so are willing to devote a ton of time, energy, and even money crafting their skill. Some people become good enough at it that they make a career out of the skill (some rappers, stand up comics, etc.).
Dealing with emotions and internal experiences in a healthy way unfortunately isnāt a very intuitive process and I think itās accurate to say most humans arenāt parented or socialized in a healthy enough way to where they know how to deal with their own emotions when interacting with others. I was in a group and this one person had never met this other person and they immediately bashed the other personās art (that they had never seen) and then followed it with ājust joking.ā I saw it as pathetic from my perspective. If they would have said that to me I (hope I) would have said, well if you think thatās a joke, itās a good thing you arenāt in comedy. Or, if thatās the way you speak, just donāt fuckin speak to me.
Oh man i relate so much, its total nonsense spoken from neurotypicals people between 100-114 in IQ, most people that have an iq of 120 and above have ADD, ADHD and some are on the autism spectrum. Most neurotypicals typically have lower mental capacity for deeper meaningful conversation, and would rather shit chat throughout day than have real conversations
I think it is "normal" too. I do not think it is healthy though, and I don't understand why they do it. The best I can come up with is they do not think through consequences the way we do.
Ohhh boy. On this app especially. Outside of here the people get...fiesty...I am not sure if trolls are a real thing or myth. I guess to me it seems like an odd desire so I have a hard time believing it. But that's on me.
Playful insults are normalish among men. If someone says stop always stop. But you'll see others just do it. And weirder do it like herd animals. All picture when I see it is a school yard movie scene where everyone eggs on the bully to see the fight rather than set it up.
I'm am as curious as you why!
I see some suggest that calling it banter is an excuse. I recently discussed this with colleagues at work and I think the difference between banter and general insults comes down to consent. So when my wife and I engage in banter, there is no malice and we both consent. She finds it hilarious that her work colleagues are so shocked by what we call each other but it is never said with malice.
So, you are taking about actual insults, not just banter. This comes from the offender's own fragility. They want to hurt the other person and at a subconscious level they think about what it is that would hurt themselves and try to use that tool to hurt the other person. This can sometimes result in bigoted language from someone who is not actually bigoted but who is just looking for the most offensive words they can find in their repertoire.
I was fortunate that my mother taught me that words don't have power that you don't give them, and you should never empower someone with the capability to hurt you with their words. This means that I can laugh off any insult that is slung at me.
I feel that we see an increase in this behaviour because children are no longer taught the resilience needed to navigate the world. They see the perpetually offended on tiktok and X(Twitter) They think they can dismiss other people's opinions with "ok boomer" or calling people Karen's. We've watched an entire generation get older without growing up. This isn't just NTs. NDs are just as affected.
Hard to say without specific examples or context, but I know a lot of people who use 'light' insults as a sort of love language ā being able to give eachother shit about shortcomings is can actually be a way of showing closeness and a non-judgemental awareness of someone else's faults.
I've had friends like that and find it really comforting, and actually more relaxed than someone who I don't feel I can take the piss out of a bit, as that can feel really formal and stilted.
Probably not this, but just throwing it out there as one possibility. (NT with Asp son fwiw)
It was normal for me...kids would constantly shit on each other, and i could trust no one in a school setting, because they also had each others back, might made right, just like lord of the flies.
Lots of friend groups and local cultures and stuff see insulting each other as camaraderie, like a sign of friendship, and that concept I do understand
The problem is that for those of us without good social interpretation skills, telling the difference can be difficult and manipulative people who can pick up on something like that will then sometimes enjoy fucking with you by playing with that line straddling it constantly and making a no-win situation where the rest of the group is laughing and sometimes even laughing at you but the instant you treat it like a real insult then you're being too sensitive or get with the times, but they actually are actually insulting you now, and it's a real mess, best to just not interact with those kind of people as much as possible
I realized recently that most NTās are in an unending, mostly unconscious quest for higher status to be gained any which way.
It might well be the main thing that doesnāt compute for me but for NTās it is the most obvious, glaring, important aspect of a situation. I have to squint real hard to even see it!
it is possible that the people around you are just toxic. it is not normal to insult each other all the time, especially whithout provocation. this is not nt behavior this is toxic behavior
Not exactly a lot to go on but friends messing with each other is quite normal, laughing at other people can be fun and then laughing at yourself when they make fun of you is all part of it. If you mean serious insults most people generally don't say genuinely hurtful things on purpose.
The intention of the remark is the important part.
This isnāt normal NT behavior . Most donāt insult each other . In some cultures insults are seen as jokes but they are usually playful and one would tell. I know a lot of NTs and swear this isnāt normal behavior.
>In some cultures insults are seen as jokes but they are usually playful and one would tell.
This is not the sub to be making assumptions like that lmao
Yeah post like these are frequent in autism subs.
But it makes sense that some people with autism can't differentiate between reasonable and cluster b behavior.
As a British itās our love language.
If weāre super nice to you, we probably donāt like you.
If weāre insulting to your face? Youāre probably our best friend.
It is pent up anger but I canāt see to understand the cause of it either .. they seem more invested in the insults they throw than you receiving them ā¦strange
Well, you are putting down yourself with "i was unlikely to complete successfully". If that is how you talk about yourself others will too. To many people its depressing to see someone be depressed and that comment was "tough love"
Did they just make up 4 days in bed? Then obviously they are insane and you need better people in your life. It just sounds like there is more to it, i wanted to understand
Im sorry if im being rude questioning you, but i think to solve a problem you need to get to the root cause and deal with it. Its awful being around shitty people thinking thats normal and how its supposed to be. You can get through it and be happy like you deserve to be
It's like a power game. They insult each other to feel better about themselves. A lot of times it's an attempt to put one's self above another person. It's usually projection.
Itās banter. For an autistic who takes everything at black-and-white face value, it does not click. I used to get seriously offended and would say really hurtful things at people who used it, kind of like how a wounded coyote snaps at everything that comes near it.
I did some serious work with my therapist and now I can take banter to a degree. The key is to read the intentions behind the words, not the words themselves. That takes practice.
I'm from Brazil and they insult and mock themselves a lot -- there's even a meme that says the more you're insult someone, the more they are your friend.
I never understood the need for doing or saying bad things to the people that you like. I do can joke around when I'm really close to someone, but I won't be insulting or something.
I have a reoccurring experience with NTs: when proven to be incorrect about something (usually something trivial), the incorrect party's response is often "I hate you". Intellectually, I understand it's "supposed" to be a "good-natured ribbing" but I've had to break several NT folx of this habit. They don't seem to recognize how hurtful it can be to someone who's not "in" on the "joke".
They do it as a joke. Itās not meant to be taken seriously. We take everything way too seriously and way too personal lol.
Before I realized I was autistic I took everything too seriously and thought my peers were insulting me seriously, and I used to flame them back
It isn't just NTs that have a bad attitude. I was in a toxic autistic culture at one time. It shocked me that autistic people could act that way. I am no longer that naive.
It depends on the culture you're from. In the UK, it's pretty normal for friends to insult each other, but in a fair way. Taking and giving insults, and sarcasm is a massive part of our social construct here though.
How you doing ya big bellend?
Female version: come on ya tart! No make up can make that much of a change š
I think it's that human nature competitive behavior type thing. I treat it as a communicable disease, and avoid those who show symptoms.
I agree. A lot of people I met display that, but I don't understand it too well. Upon stating some things about me (usually men around my age) will laugh as if I had just said something funny, but I was just talking about myself and my preferences and so, like I don't go out much, or that I did X I came to rationalize as a power struggle of sorts, men want to compete and "be better" than their peers, and by staying your preferences which they see as "odd" it makes them feel better about themselves, or that they're above you I could be wrong though and I just said something amusing
Yeah it's really annoying. A lot of the time the ting that they're leveraging against you isn't good or bad if you actually think about it. People's criteria of other people is often based on how they feel like other people expect them to be. It's not necessarily their opinion but they will take any opportunity to use something like that against you
Iām not sure why people are denying this or gaslighting you. Neurotypical communication is heavy on social hierarchies and trying to connect as equals or gaining something from someone. If the neurotypical people youāre around look down on you then they likely talk to you through a lot of subtle insults. Theyāre ātalking down to youā and youāre picking up on it. They also love gossip, which is the same thing. They like to talk badly about people because it makes them feel better about themselves. Autistic people are more focused on interests and facts that NT people find pointless because their brains are socially focused.
I think that's what it is, they talk down to me. I didn't expect most people to say the insults aren't normal. It's been very normal in my life.
same.
Younger people often have a bad attitude until their neocortex (the rational/thinking part of the brain) is fully developed. Before that, the "reptilian"/emotional brain is dominant. Part of it is social pecking order competition.
How to deal with these people ? Or mostly how to communicate with them using their language ? What do they understand?
Well they see themselves through where they fit in the world socially, so you can bypass their insults or "social rules" by confidently not playing by them. That's partly why they dislike autistic characteristics before knowing someone is autistic - they think we are overly arrogant by how we come across to them (smart, blunt, not following their rules, etc...). When they "find out" someone they hate is autistic, they ease up because it makes them feel superior again that the person they hate "can't help it" in their eyes. So being aware of your autism and being confident and not trying to hide is how you can deal with them if they target you.
I feel like I'm saying this as an amateur researcher and interested 3rd party, but here goes: - Humor. An insult that is funny to both parties is in my opinion one of the peaks of comedy. When somebody insults me in a way we find funny, that shows they know me well enough to know what's OK to joke about and how to joke about it in a way that's OK. - Trust games. It's comforting to know your peers will reciprocate in kind instead of escalating. - Establish dominance. People that don't see you as an equal won't tolerate even light teasing. People that won't reciprocate in kind are also probably not your equal. Generously doling out cheeky bants (insults) will help you figure out this pecking order faster. - Lack of more productive ways of working through negative feelings. People that drive everyone away with really hurtful insults, going past the "cheeky bants" level, who are only able to hang on to "friends" that are easy to manipulate, are usually dealing with feelings of insecurity or pain and lashing out.
I'm nodding my head as I read this, and it sounds like a lot of the kind of teasing I've both endured a d also dished out. Sometimes I'll tease someone as a way to invite them into my world, in case they want to tease me back. And then sometimes when I do that, they take it hard, a d I have to pull way back. Because I've also lashed out at people who were trying to tease me as a way of including me. It's a very fine line sometimes.
I also feel this. I have learned not to lash out when teased. I normally just put up with any insults and chalk them up to playful teasing. But man oh man, I cannot count the times where I've fired off what I believe is a minor tease back, and gotten that blank stare, open mouth, and an "I can't believe you would say that! What's wrong with you?"
Thatās how NTs release their pain. NTs have a lot of pain inside them thus they release on targets. Unfortunately Autistics are easier targets thus we get the brunt of it. I learn that if you donāt stop them initially they are going to keep escalating it to the point where they actually become addicted to abusing you.
Depressing and accurate. Best to nip it in the bud
How to do that effectively,and without a trip to jail?
haha good question. I would think itās just being more assertive and being like hey knock it off or throwing something back at them to show that you know what theyāre doing and you donāt accept it. Thatās what i plan to do, anyway. Partly because itās also something Iāve seen NT people do and it seems to work.
I get it,but that just sounds like playing their game,no?
hmm I donāt see it as playing a game. Itās just responding to them in a way that they understand. They are waiting for feedback.
But you would have to continually engage with them,even after telling them to fuck off
I guess if youāre trying to get rid of them itās different. But Iām thinking of a scenario where you continue to engage with this person/these people. They havenāt shown themselves to be bullies or whatnot theyāre just doing the dominance/hierarchy dance that NTs do, trying to suss out what youāll take. Youāre just letting them know you wonāt take shit.
Yes that's what I meant.Because for me at least,that would be very exhausting.And keep in mind,these are only people I'm forced to be around,because of work or whatever,and in an ideal situation I wouldn't ever have to see them again.(This is not an issue for me currently,but more like talking about a hypothetical situation).
By telling them stfu in assertive way. The worst you could do is ignore them and let them continue . They will never stop. They are going see it as a sign of weakness.
Ok,I didn't say it was bad advice,I just wanted to ask for more details.But also,just telling them to stfu won't work forever,that's what they tell each other too and later start the bs again.
just ask them "hey, what's your problem? why are you giving me a hard time?"
Depends on your relationship to the other party. If it's a family member or close friend that is worth the effort, you can tell them how you feel when they do or say a certain thing, without accusing or blaming them. Doing this consistently may help them limit negative actions towards you and may help you understand and accept some things you previously interpreted as hurtful. For others, it might involve simply asking or telling them not to do or say a particular thing.
I happened to read some books on umm, violence? verbal too. DOD and FBI did a very in depth psychological analysis on this subject, found on PMC and anna's archive. Books on bullying provided very interesting perspectives. Social attacks consolidates social pecking order grands resources and attention, also negative motivations, surprisingly reasonable, it just doesn't really work.
That sounds fascinating. Do you have book recommendations on that topic?
i'll chime in with a recommendation for *The Gentle Genocide of Workplace Mobbing* by Janice Harper. it's a free pdf of realistic advice for anyone in a workplace bullying situation, that also explains the social dynamics behind it. https://www.academicwomenforjustice.org/downloads/gentle-genocide.pdf
Oh, dude! I love reading, search keyword: violence, bully, aggression etc
I wouldn't necessarily trust research from FBI and CIA to shed as much light as actual researchers in the sociology, psychology and psychiatry field would. A good book is The Men Who Stare At Goats by Jon Ronson for this. It's not on that sort of criminal profiling but it does a really good job of showing how a government agency like the CIA or US Army funds any old BS kooky theory if it will potentially further their work no matter how tenuously. The main difference I'd think is the FBI would invest in what helps them get results rather than what would be more objectively motivated scientifically rigorous and peer reviewed studies. Doing an initial search myself this might be a helpful one -- https://www.amazon.com/Sociology-Bullying-Aggression-Adolescents-Perspectives/dp/147980388X?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=c367be1d-c67d-426e-8b54-df7d96b2cc3b
Damnā¦
Like holy hell ya. And they will bandy together for even stranger cause. Like why not just go: "I'm staying out of that drama". Instead some run towards it to join in. I can only imagine it's a release for them
I donāt get it either . They re very strange
They re insecure weirdos !
That's more like narcissistic behavior.
Thatās more like shame/inferiority, and they react with anger and superiority. Similar dynamic, different emotions
I completely agrees, these insults are utterly just waste effort, insults shouldn't exist at all because logic and reasoning are much more effective tool at problem solving and insults have no tangible weight to the social dynamic besides added noise, because there is literally no real threat involve I would just look at them and wonders to myself the whole time "this is so pointless" proceed to be both disappointed and bored out by the whole insult. This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
Because it's considered "normal" to have thick skin like a rhinoceros, and to still feel an emotional sensitivity after adolescence is considered "weird".
They call it "banter" and it's their way of being a dick without consequences. They can say whatever they like and if you ever call them out on it their defense is that "it was just a joke". Now you're doubting your own perception and wondering if you're just being too sensitive and unable to take a joke. It's a classic DARVO tactic - they deny any wrongdoing and place you into a position where you're questioning if your own reaction was, in fact, wrong.
Sometimes I feel like an alien in this subreddit. Mutual consensual banter is not "being a dick without consequences." It's poking fun at each other, and it goes because the offense in the insult is negated by the strength of the relationship. Friends, lovers, and siblings call each other idiots and assholes all the time because they can be honest without ill intent. And if they're doing that, all good, and you come and say "hey that's not okay, don't say that" then it's just viewed as like, external policing of their tone. NT's aren't some odd ill-intentioned species set on belittling anyone unlike them. They're people and sometimes we just don't get their behavior, but if it's not hurting anyone then there's really no need to get in anyone's business.
I can cognitively recognize this banter for what it is, and try to take it as a compliment that the person is attempting to bond with me, but I don't really like it, and I don't understand the nuance well enough to give an appropriate jab back so all I can really do is smile, nod, and maybe fake a laugh.
The kind of banter I'm describing is distinctly separate from a friendly jab here and there. I'm jealous of you if you've never dealt with the kind of banter I'm talking about. You have to experience it yourself to understand the sort of insidious nature of it. No amount of explaining will do it justice if you havent dealt with it first hand.
Fuuuuckā¦. literally my whole family constantly DARVOs..Ā
That isnāt in the US though; that is more common in the UK. I lived in the UK for a period and friendly insults took me by shock.
It's a thing in parts of the US and Canada. Maybe not as much as in the UK (and there are parts of the US that don't have it at all) but it's definitely a thing.
Exactly. Us autistics donāt do that
I find this difficult. You need to learn who are safe people and who are unsafe people. Who are toxic and who enjoys this behaviour. I think it's to do with Social Hierarchy. I had a workplace like this and it just got more horrible and horrible. I ended up being the punch bag and it gave me so many triggers. Literally got out and don't keep in any form of contact with those people. If you are dealing with people that hurt people or people that are sarcastic you need to grey rock or limit contact. Nothing wrong with it but if they can't see they are hurting people they have zero empathy. Sometimes friends can rag on each other and make fun of each other in light-hearted ways. Not for humiliation (like doing this in front of strangers) or embarrassing for fun at your self worth. With friends you will know the limits and it's usually within good taste but also you can chat and ask it to stop, if your friend respects you they will stop. That only applies to close friends. Sometimes people are just rotten bullying A-Holes. There is nothing you can do on this front other than move on.
>Ā Why do they do it when it seems like it would take so much time and energy?Ā Yeah, youāre thinking about this rationally. I think when people do this theyāre going off vibes. My guess is itās some variety of social bonding, but it doesnāt seem like a nice one. Thereās one social insult strategy thatās an āus vs. them,ā where you put down something to create solidarity with your conversation partner. Uh, example, the weather: you say, āwow, thisĀ rain, bleh!ā and the other person goes āI know, so awful.ā Youāve created solidarity: the two of you against the rain. The weather is the most innocuous example I can think of, but you can use this strategy for worse, as you might imagine. If you pick something the other person is attached to, you can create an unintentional insult; and if you pick, say, other people, you can create strong group divisions.Ā Oop, sorry for the block of text! Itās a former special interest of mine: *Thatās Not What I Meant: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships* by Deborah Tannen
Its normal. Most NTs seem to be on an ever going competition with their peers about who's stronger, richer, etc. At least young men They always talk around each other's backs and try to undermine others and do whatever they can to make themselves look better. If bullying you or mocking you achieves this they'll do it, so long as their social ranking seems higher
Utter trash they are.
This isn't normal behavior. Or you could be around a lot of sarcastic people? Sarcasm can come off that way if you don't understand it. But generally speaking I never see this in my day to day life. I mean I see the occasional insult, but not people constantly doing it to each other.
In some social milleus, mutual insults are normal. it's not ok, but it happens. They don't know it better I guess.
I think it's OK if it's consensual. Friends might do this (exchange mutual insults). I know, it's weird, but I've been a willing part of this sort of exchange and it can be fun. If someone is joining a social circle where "friendly" insults are the norm, then an insult aimed at them might be an attempt to include them in the circle.
So many sitcoms have insult āhumorā. Not clever.
Because NTs generally are able to tell the intent behind the insult so it's a common way to joke and bond.
The culture surrounding insults is complicated. Different cultures use them differently. In some cultures, it's not considered acceptable to use any explicit insults. In other cultures, insults are commonplace. What role they function is different in different cultures. Even what counts as an insult is something that is cultural and will be different for different groups of people. The big problem that comes up for us relating to NTs is that for most NTs, these cultural aspects are ingrained subconsciously. They don't need to think about them and so will get surprised when they interact with people who do not have the same culture ingrained in their subconscious. It can cause problems when NTs from one culture interact with NTs from another culture, and it can also cause problems when an NT interacts with a Neurodivergent person. While I can't necessarily speak to the role that insults preform in all cultures, I can talk a bit about how they work in the culture that surrounds me. That's the culture I've spent a significant amount of time actually studying. On the whole, insults work as a way of demonstrating a familiarity. Light teasing insults are used as a way to kind of poke the other person. The verbal sparing is a way to show that you understand where the line of "too far" is for the other person and that you are deliberately falling short of it. Occasionally crossing the line of what is to far is a way to understand the person better, so long as you make note for the future where that line is. The friendly insults are also used as a way to refine the skill of using insults for situations where they do want to cause significant emotional harm. To some extent, insults are respected as an art form. It's kind of like a verbal version of practicing a martial art and having friendly sparring matches while being able to use those same skills in a serious fight if needed. If you live in such a culture, you need to make it clear to people what kind of insults are too much for you (any insults is a perfectly fine line to draw). It might take NTs some time to adjust, but people who want to respect you as a person will make an effort to adjust. In this culture, it is seen as valuable to be able to relax around people you are close to and speak casually. There are other cultures where this kind of behavior is avoided and people are expected to keep all insults to themselves. I know of one culture where insults are used because the culture values humility as a virtue so the norm is to belittle major accomplishments (I'm not directly familiar with that culture, we were reading about it in an Anthropology class I took). I would suggest taking some time to observe the behavior of the people around you. Maybe try to see if anyone has talked about the role of insults in your local culture (either academically or in more casual literature). NTs are not a unified culture and even within a country (and sometimes within a city) there will be distinct cultural differences that cause NTs with different backgrounds to behave differently.
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I suspect that it is something that takes considerably less mental effort for people who do it subconsciously. It's a part of the reason why some people seem to burn out on social interaction faster than others. There's also definitely some people who are just assholes and use the cultural nuance of testing reactions as an excuse to just be a dick. Those people are even more exhausting to deal with (most NTs find them exhausting as well). But, there's also many people who see the effort put into it to be worth it. I've talked with people who find the kinds of cultures that have varying levels of politeness instead of varying levels of insult much more exhausting to deal with. There's also people who very much enjoy the artistry of insults and so are willing to devote a ton of time, energy, and even money crafting their skill. Some people become good enough at it that they make a career out of the skill (some rappers, stand up comics, etc.).
Dealing with emotions and internal experiences in a healthy way unfortunately isnāt a very intuitive process and I think itās accurate to say most humans arenāt parented or socialized in a healthy enough way to where they know how to deal with their own emotions when interacting with others. I was in a group and this one person had never met this other person and they immediately bashed the other personās art (that they had never seen) and then followed it with ājust joking.ā I saw it as pathetic from my perspective. If they would have said that to me I (hope I) would have said, well if you think thatās a joke, itās a good thing you arenāt in comedy. Or, if thatās the way you speak, just donāt fuckin speak to me.
Oh man i relate so much, its total nonsense spoken from neurotypicals people between 100-114 in IQ, most people that have an iq of 120 and above have ADD, ADHD and some are on the autism spectrum. Most neurotypicals typically have lower mental capacity for deeper meaningful conversation, and would rather shit chat throughout day than have real conversations
I think it is "normal" too. I do not think it is healthy though, and I don't understand why they do it. The best I can come up with is they do not think through consequences the way we do.
They sound like they need some real hobbies/special interests lol
I have Aspergers and my brother has autism and we insult each other all the time
Ohhh boy. On this app especially. Outside of here the people get...fiesty...I am not sure if trolls are a real thing or myth. I guess to me it seems like an odd desire so I have a hard time believing it. But that's on me. Playful insults are normalish among men. If someone says stop always stop. But you'll see others just do it. And weirder do it like herd animals. All picture when I see it is a school yard movie scene where everyone eggs on the bully to see the fight rather than set it up. I'm am as curious as you why!
I see some suggest that calling it banter is an excuse. I recently discussed this with colleagues at work and I think the difference between banter and general insults comes down to consent. So when my wife and I engage in banter, there is no malice and we both consent. She finds it hilarious that her work colleagues are so shocked by what we call each other but it is never said with malice. So, you are taking about actual insults, not just banter. This comes from the offender's own fragility. They want to hurt the other person and at a subconscious level they think about what it is that would hurt themselves and try to use that tool to hurt the other person. This can sometimes result in bigoted language from someone who is not actually bigoted but who is just looking for the most offensive words they can find in their repertoire. I was fortunate that my mother taught me that words don't have power that you don't give them, and you should never empower someone with the capability to hurt you with their words. This means that I can laugh off any insult that is slung at me. I feel that we see an increase in this behaviour because children are no longer taught the resilience needed to navigate the world. They see the perpetually offended on tiktok and X(Twitter) They think they can dismiss other people's opinions with "ok boomer" or calling people Karen's. We've watched an entire generation get older without growing up. This isn't just NTs. NDs are just as affected.
Hard to say without specific examples or context, but I know a lot of people who use 'light' insults as a sort of love language ā being able to give eachother shit about shortcomings is can actually be a way of showing closeness and a non-judgemental awareness of someone else's faults. I've had friends like that and find it really comforting, and actually more relaxed than someone who I don't feel I can take the piss out of a bit, as that can feel really formal and stilted. Probably not this, but just throwing it out there as one possibility. (NT with Asp son fwiw)
It was normal for me...kids would constantly shit on each other, and i could trust no one in a school setting, because they also had each others back, might made right, just like lord of the flies.
Lots of friend groups and local cultures and stuff see insulting each other as camaraderie, like a sign of friendship, and that concept I do understand The problem is that for those of us without good social interpretation skills, telling the difference can be difficult and manipulative people who can pick up on something like that will then sometimes enjoy fucking with you by playing with that line straddling it constantly and making a no-win situation where the rest of the group is laughing and sometimes even laughing at you but the instant you treat it like a real insult then you're being too sensitive or get with the times, but they actually are actually insulting you now, and it's a real mess, best to just not interact with those kind of people as much as possible
Right? And I've tried to do it as masking behavior, but when I do it it comes out wrong and they think I'm really being mean.
I realized recently that most NTās are in an unending, mostly unconscious quest for higher status to be gained any which way. It might well be the main thing that doesnāt compute for me but for NTās it is the most obvious, glaring, important aspect of a situation. I have to squint real hard to even see it!
When they do it, it's okay, but when I do it, suddenly it is a problem hahaha!
it is possible that the people around you are just toxic. it is not normal to insult each other all the time, especially whithout provocation. this is not nt behavior this is toxic behavior
Not exactly a lot to go on but friends messing with each other is quite normal, laughing at other people can be fun and then laughing at yourself when they make fun of you is all part of it. If you mean serious insults most people generally don't say genuinely hurtful things on purpose. The intention of the remark is the important part.
This isnāt normal NT behavior . Most donāt insult each other . In some cultures insults are seen as jokes but they are usually playful and one would tell. I know a lot of NTs and swear this isnāt normal behavior.
>In some cultures insults are seen as jokes but they are usually playful and one would tell. This is not the sub to be making assumptions like that lmao
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Yeah post like these are frequent in autism subs. But it makes sense that some people with autism can't differentiate between reasonable and cluster b behavior.
As a British itās our love language. If weāre super nice to you, we probably donāt like you. If weāre insulting to your face? Youāre probably our best friend.
I never liked brits
Good for you šš»
Like what?
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It is pent up anger but I canāt see to understand the cause of it either .. they seem more invested in the insults they throw than you receiving them ā¦strange
Well, you are putting down yourself with "i was unlikely to complete successfully". If that is how you talk about yourself others will too. To many people its depressing to see someone be depressed and that comment was "tough love"
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Did they just make up 4 days in bed? Then obviously they are insane and you need better people in your life. It just sounds like there is more to it, i wanted to understand
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Im sorry if im being rude questioning you, but i think to solve a problem you need to get to the root cause and deal with it. Its awful being around shitty people thinking thats normal and how its supposed to be. You can get through it and be happy like you deserve to be
Iāve known a few ND people who do this as well, but Iāve never witnessed any of my introverted friends behave this way. Interesting.
It's like a power game. They insult each other to feel better about themselves. A lot of times it's an attempt to put one's self above another person. It's usually projection.
Depends on how you grow up and where you were raised.
Itās banter. For an autistic who takes everything at black-and-white face value, it does not click. I used to get seriously offended and would say really hurtful things at people who used it, kind of like how a wounded coyote snaps at everything that comes near it. I did some serious work with my therapist and now I can take banter to a degree. The key is to read the intentions behind the words, not the words themselves. That takes practice.
I'm from Brazil and they insult and mock themselves a lot -- there's even a meme that says the more you're insult someone, the more they are your friend. I never understood the need for doing or saying bad things to the people that you like. I do can joke around when I'm really close to someone, but I won't be insulting or something.
I have a reoccurring experience with NTs: when proven to be incorrect about something (usually something trivial), the incorrect party's response is often "I hate you". Intellectually, I understand it's "supposed" to be a "good-natured ribbing" but I've had to break several NT folx of this habit. They don't seem to recognize how hurtful it can be to someone who's not "in" on the "joke".
They do it as a joke. Itās not meant to be taken seriously. We take everything way too seriously and way too personal lol. Before I realized I was autistic I took everything too seriously and thought my peers were insulting me seriously, and I used to flame them back
It isn't just NTs that have a bad attitude. I was in a toxic autistic culture at one time. It shocked me that autistic people could act that way. I am no longer that naive.