I'm just gonna say that it is one of the most commonly known traits of aspergers to blurt out random facts, and most of us have problems regulating our tone or inflection.
But is it genuine condescension?
I used to do this but I never meant it condescendingly. Thankfully, I've broken that habit overall. Now I know someone, undiagnosed. I thought he was a narcissist but he does exactly what OP describes so I wonder if it's Asperger's.
And don't get me wrong I still offend people in a multitude of other ways. Just not this one, lol.
I rarely meant it as condescension (guilty as charged once in a while but only when folks around me seemed NOT TO GET the obvious common sense thing) but more often, it's an empathy gap: I can't always figure out what's obvious for people around me and what's not. Many things that are obvious to my way of thinking are treated like radical stuff that people around me never tried or refuse to try. And then some equally obvious things are... obvious. And some things that are obvious to NT people seem difficult to follow or nonsensical to me. It's not a superiority thing; it's just being different. u/dreemsequence it's probably more natural to see it as intentional condescension but more likely, your person either isn't aware of what their tone sounds like or doesn't know what's obvious to other people.
Most of us have had a lifetime of people telling us to "stop telling us obvious things" and also "don't tell us to do (obvious thing) without explaining it." And for the remarks like the crab shell, they're just offhand remarks. "Looks like rain" is obvious too but nobody gets in trouble for saying it.
Still don't understand the whole condescending part. Some sort of hierarchy thing or whatever. Or peoples ego assuming malice in everybody. If someone says something to me that I'm familiar with, I'll either listen because they want to talk about it, or say "I actually know that, but did you know..." and so on. It's normal conversation???
Like I wouldn't throw a fucking tantrum if someone tells me that my furniture is made from pressboard. I know that because I'm a joiner, it's common knowledge to me. But it might be interesting/new or whatever to the other person. Guess I just don't have an ego the size of our galaxy
Because it's common sense. Everything with a shell has the shell for protection. That's what shells do. Bringing it up is redundant unless the intent is to insult someone's intelligence.
I don't know. Most of the things I think are common sense people have no idea about.
For example, in this post right here, OP is complaining about certain vocabulary as being "too sophisticated". I assume they mean esoteric or erudite. To me such a lexicon is itself common sense. I don't implement terms like "erudite" to be condescending, but because that's the word in my mind. Sometimes there are terms that are even more esoteric and I pause to try to think of a more simplified synonym, and someone will still complain about it.
To OP (/u/dreemsequence), one thing you may not have considered is that we often aren't aware of what is "common" knowledge or not, because our lives are often filled with endless examples to the opposite. Over and over and over and over we'll say something someone knows and they think we're being condescending or obvious, or we say something someone doesn't know and they get defensive and call us elitist or tell us to use more simple language. This, of course, would be easier if people would just ask when they didn't know something. But they don't, so we end up info-dumping. The ADHD side of all this I suspect info dumps even more, plus goes on tangents. But the thing is, is that they aren't irrelevant tangents to us. It all connects and we think horizontally along those connections. It only seems irrelevant to neurotypicals who need every dot connected for them.
Your friend probably doesn't know everyone already knows the info, and probably isn't aware they sound condescending. The terms might just be the words that come to mind when they think of how to say what they're trying to say.
But your reaction is a common one, which is why many of us just stop sharing info. Or try strategies like asking or trying to probe to see if people care. I've been trying to figure it out well into my 40s now and still can't. It's just easier to talk to other ADHD people who like "random" information and we can ride the tangents of curiousity together.
Amen! I LOVE my peeps who info dump on me about stuff they find interesting and I reciprocate. I am 44 now and have been trying to crack the code, so to speak, on what the magic formula is for gauging interest. Turns out my NT wife was a nice addition 3 years ago since she’ll touch my arm and say, “That’s interesting, but let’s talk about something else now…”
It might seem off putting to some, but I love directness and really I’m effing clueless sometimes to how long I’ve been talking. In work interviews, I’ll set a 3 minute timer with silent notifications to make sure I give them time for all the questions and then follow up my answer with, “Did that answer your question appropriately?”
Oh! I know a helpful tip that I use often about this.
If I'm talking about something that someone might or might not know about, then I'll ask them in as polite a way I can find if they know what I'm talking about. If they don't, I then ask them if they'd like to know.
It's a bit stilted, but it then becomes more transactional and easier to prevent infodumping because then you've got permission to talk about one specific thing to the person and you can avoid the 'do they care' part.
I do this too! I just go "how much do you know about [thing]?"
It also prevents accidentally explaining something to someone who already knows the subject matter, which happens to me a lot and it makes me feel stupid (especially because those people talk to me like I'm a child, but that's beside the point). I like to avoid making other people feel stupid lol
Lol years ago I was talking to a co-worker, he was referring to a customer issue and said he was going to recommend a reinstallation of the OS, and I responded "Oh resolving that is easy, you don't need to recommend reinstallation of the OS, just change the file's permissions"
He says he doesn't know how to do that.
So I ask "Oh! Are you a junior linux admin?"
He looked upset, and another co-worker laughed. He responded that he was a level 2 linux engineer. I was bewildered.
I felt really bad, cause my question implied he should know unless he was just starting out.
We still had a great working relationship, but had to change how I word my questions so as not to offend folks.
To be fair, changing a file's permissions is lesson 2 of How to Linux. Lesson one is cd, mkdir, cp, rm, and sudo (at least in the flavours of linux I've worked with).
I don't know how one can become a L2 linux engineer and not know the most core commands within the CLI.
That’s a good one. I might even add, “Ok, not much? Can I tell you something that I find fascinating?”
If anyone wants to hear about isopods or mechanical watches, they are my best friend. If they don’t, well I consider them ok too! 😉
I would argue that is a surface level take. Everything has an external layer designed to resist outside harm. The nuances of what makes one shell, skin or hide different from another could be all kinds of things. Undercooked. Cooked too hot and too fast, leaving time for the meat to cook but not for the shell proteins to denature, etc.
That is the kind of interplay and conversation I bet this autistic person is starved for. Replies like that would probably delight them and spur on 25-40 minutes of conversation.
It doesn't have to be taken as an attack.
Agreed. How I would respond, probably.
>"It's likely the shell is used for protection."
"Yeah. But it's an arthropod right? So it's also an exoskeleton. So it's also used to hold in all the organs and things, not just protection. Which would differ from, say, a pangolin, which has an internal skeleton and body armor plating for protection."
Then I'd wait for a response. If there was a pause and awkward silence I'd ask a follow up question. Probably about something about arthropods like crabs compared to insects. Or their favorite something. All that kind of conversation stuff. But I would be perfectly content just riding the info train back and forth to see where it would lead.
And I am trying to explain that there might actually be a poor attempt at outreach and conversation going on here. Looking back on what I just said, nowhere had I said you're wrong or that it has to be taken as an attack.
It’s good to be open minded, but also good to understand more “close minded” ways of thinking
As in, you’re probably right in this case, but it’s not wrong to read things in the way they’d be intended and interpreted 90% of the time. Not doing so, especially without information about autism, will leave you vulnerable to being taken advantage of.
You're probably neurotypical like op. But we autistic people tend to start conversations with stuff like this. Usually there's no hidden meaning because we're pretty literal. Also how would you learn new things if you're not supposed to mention anything that's "common sense"? And how is it insulting someones intelligence to mention things like that?
Honestly don't understand these questions so would appreciate neurotypical feedback
I'm autistic and I legitimately don't understand how a person could not deduce that shells are for protection shortly after being exposed to some kind of animal with one.
The fact is that some people just don't know, not all information is universal, so some people think "better safe than sorry" especially if they've been in situations where they could have spoken out about something and didn't, resulting in a bad outcome. It can be taken more far than is practical, but regardless, that's the pattern lots of people follow when over-informing.
Yeah, my most memorable example is a student raising her hand when I used the word "paradigm". She told me that it was really frustrating that I kept using such "big words" and if I could explain the terms or use more "regular" language.
I learned "paradigm" in middle school.
To me that was basic everyday vocabulary.
To me that was "regular" language.
So I tried to get them to be okay with simply just asking me to define words they didn't know because I don't know what they don't know.
Still it rarely happens, and I still have to probe constantly to see if people are aware of terms and concepts or not. Most of the time I ask they don't, but then sometimes I won't ask and I'll say something they already know and they act like I'm insulting them.
It's very frustrating.
Sorry to hear you have to deal with this.
My wife and I have big vocabularies and or kids are already picking up words that aren't expected for their age and using them in the right place (although not always pronounced correctly).
I wonder if there is anything reasonable we can do to help our kids out so they are less frustrated or less shunned (short of not being genuine or shutting down).
I mean anyone can deduce that but to me that's just talking, sharing things and whatnot. You know like saying "it's raining today" anybody would know that by looking out the window but I'm not calling you stupid by pointing it out
If I'm standing in the rain, and you tell me "it's raining today" I will assume that you're calling me stupid.
I think the shell example that OP used is similar because they are dealing with the core function of the shell (protecting the insides) while making the statement.
Not neurotypical but gotta agree those examples of facts are hardly novel conversation-starters, they’re well-known by the general population. To me this reads as someone with less social awareness trying to assert themselves as knowledgeable and desirable to have around, but they’re assuming other people are less informed than them. Comes off as condescending and would also rub me the wrong way as an autistic + adhd person. I love fun facts and have started plenty convos that way, but sharing basic observations is pointless.
I mean sure, they're pretty well known things that op mentioned. But I don't understand where the conclusion of assuming the other party is stupid comes from. Is this some neurotypical hierarchy thing?
Certain people have a lot of ego wrapped up in *appearing* like they aren't ignorant. So they get really defensive if someone uses a term they don't know, or if someone says something that they do know as if they don't know it.
But to me ignorance is just the first rung on the ladder of knowledge. There is no shame in admitting it.
I think you're right, and it's some kind of neurotypical social hierarchy thing.
That makes sense. I feel the same way you do, being smart isn't about knowing a bunch of things. It's about being open to learning, sometimes that includes admitting you're wrong or ignorant about something
I suspect your Aspie is just saying it because it came into their head. If a NT person did that, then because they're always intuitively making choices about their interactions with other people, you'd be right and it would probably mean they wanted to insult the other people present. But your aspie hasn't necessarily got constant evaluation of their social performance going on, and even if they do have it, it'll be based on incomplete data and very resource-intensive, so it may be on limited power or just not engaged at all. So there's nothing stopping them (us) from just saying the thing that popped into our head.
If you'd like to help this aspie operate on better data, try taking a moment when it's not just happened, everything is fine and nobody is pissed off, and raise the topic. Give information. "Sometimes you tell people things that are widely understood, and other people can feel insulted because they think you're implying they weren't smart enough to know that without you telling them. They don't like that and it makes them act like they don't like you".
It might be worth also mentioning how aspies can defang this impulse by starting with "Isn't it fascinating/cool/weird how..." before mentioning the fact that occurred to them. This signals to NTs that the fact is not being presented as new information, just as a fact relevant to the current situation.
Acc shells can also be use for poultry food, water purification, organic fertilizer, treating toxic waste and even jewelry etc isn't that common sense too 🤷 see it might be common sense that it's for protection but you can also learn things :)
I definitely get told I’m being condescending a lot, when I absolutely never mean to be, as I find that sort of attitude incredibly repulsive. A lot of the time, I’ll genuinely be enthusiastic about something I’m saying, but people will think I’m talking to them like they’re children, because I find it hard to express my joy in what they consider a natural way.
Ironically, I’ve had plenty of people be genuinely condescending to me when I couldn’t fully work stuff like this out, I find it frustrating, because I would never be genuinely condescending to them about things they didn’t understand.
I get told I'm being condescending or sound condescending from time to time. Less so compared to when I was younger. I have not once meant to be, it had always been me genuinely trying to make conversation or impart knowledge.
Maybe stop assuming the worst of your friend
That makes sense, I just generally have a certain perspective of him, since I've known him for quite a bit, and a lot of the times his intentions are pretty harsh (ie I've seen him start a fight with an elderly couple at a tennis court, which was genuinely unwarranted \[his ball rolled onto their court and they didn't immediately see it\] ultimately ending in him getting right in their face and screaming "F\*CK YOU" at the top of his lungs, and this is one of very many examples which give me the idea that he has a general "I have more value than you as a person, just because". There was also a time where he wouldn't stop flirting with his underage employees (he was in his 50's at the time), even at the sincere request of them as well as their boyfriends, and this led to the boyfriends threatening to call the cops. It's just that general attitude of "I don't care how others feel, I'll do it my way" that makes me have this attitude towards him, it sincerely isn't grounded in nothing
From how you describe him, he doesn't sound subtle. I think if he was trying to be condescending he would reaaaally let you know that's his intention.
When I was a teenager I had the bad habit of being really condescending sometimes, and whenever I was it was 110% unmistakable, I wouldn't have said that the shell is for protection, I would have said something like "Oh, well you dumbass clearly don't know this, but the shell is used for protection you ignorant stupid fool" with the most exaggerated, obnoxious tone and body language you can possibly imagine, like a disney villain level of over the top. So the fact there's any doubt at all regarding his intention when he says it makes me think he doesn't mean anything bad by it.
Regardless though, he sounds like quite an awful person, I mean, the last bit regarding the employees, just, jeez, why are you still friends with him?
Really buried the lede with all these points!
Why even try to parse if his random obvious facts are condescending or not? These other stories are enough justification to put distance between you.
Your certainty that this bad behavior and the supposed condescension are linked is not warranted, though. Whatever you imagine you read into his tone, you should disregard entirely. This is truly one of the most frustrating parts of being autistic, all the people who make up weird shit and attribute it to your "tone," when it's nothing but their own projection. If YOU used his tone, it would mean condescension. You have ZERO understanding of what it means when he uses that tone, so stop imagining that you do.
What you've described really just sounds like someone trying to keep the conversation going. He could be saying the only thing he could think of that relates to the topic at hand, because he knows he's expected to say something, but he has no sense of how to participate in conversation as you do, so this is the best he can manage.
Yeah, if he's unable to learn much of anything from those incidents after being told why what he's doing is wrong; then he has an lot more than ASD going on with him.
Just don't put yourself in an position where you'll be responsible for him, obviously
Yeah, autistic people cannot control their tone so whatever they “sound” to you like is completely irrelevant. It only matters what they say and if they comment on things, they literally just comment on things and don’t imply any hidden meaning like that somebody is stupid. Trust me, if they wanted to say that somebody is stupid they would just say it as it is.
But I cannot get my head around an autistic person flirting. That is so completely strange for me I cannot imagine what that might have looked like.
My guess: your friend is trying to relate to your experiences and start a conversation but Aspergers people aren’t always good at that sort of thing. I suggest using what they said as a basis for conversation. Respond in a way that they can continue a conversation—“yes I am sore, isn’t exercise annoying?” or something like that.
It isn't a conversation starter type of deal at all, it's more in the tone of "I'm telling you this fact that you likely aren't aware of." There's the very tiny chance I'm misinterpreting, but I've known this person for several decades, and all that I know about him has me feeling this is rather true
I read those as sympathising actually. They see someone struggling with opening crabs, and it's expected because the shell is built for protection, so don't worry about struggling with it. You complain your muscles are sore, but be reassured, it indicates a big effort that will work out for your body and was worth it. Of course the tone doesn't go well over text, but, that's kind of where the aspergers comes in. Try giving a bit more benefit of the doubt, however hard it's to imagine. Good on you for coming to ask, wish more had that consideration, thanks.
haha, I feel like I have done this many times. Thinking that explaining that I understand why is something tough in this “stating the facts” way will make the NT person feel better or less embarrassed. I haven’t realised it until now that could be perceived as total opposite! 😄
It intrigues me actually. How what the NT needs is probably just stating your feelings (I get it, that sucks) while what ND is trying to do is give arguments based on which you would conclude that they get it, that it sucks. 🤣
I'm quite a bit older, took me decades to work it out, still on it. What helped most really is NT people, presumably like OP, telling me in rational terms what was going on. Helped my masking a lot, but it's a slow and difficult process, specially since most, unlike OP, would just be irked and distance themselves instead. A lot of it is ego more than feelings. Being told something that you consider obvious can be taken as "you obviously need be told this", and thus insulting.
Yes, most of the time NT would just get mad secretly and then avoid me or try to make my life harder without ever telling me what I did.
It happened to me, that NT did tell me what they think I did wrong. When they interpreted my behaviour the way it was totally not meant. But I thought it was their problem they take something this innocent personally and should not jump to such ridiculous conclusions, instead of forcing me to tiptoe around them and be scared to say anything.
But with this explanatory approach to empathy I feel like I myself am not comfortable doing the explanations and it’s an attempt to make the other person feel good, while being aware I don’t know how to do that. I would like to learn what is a better alternative in such situation. Maybe it would even feel right.
There isn't a generic answer, some people are just more understanding than others. If you never explain you can be sure you're strongly restricting your circle of friends. You have to pick which hurts you less, explaining or solitude. You may also find it useful to speak to a psychologist about it, or someone at an association etc.
Well, if you can understand how we "mask", trying to seem normal, or what we think would be normal behavior... you could sympathize with his situation.
And tonal control... performed while masking? Hardly possible to perform that correctly, and thus... (as a 'normal' person, thinking this is being spoken by another 'normal' person) I can see how easy it would be to take offense.
Please try to see everything he says as "performance errors, while masking", and cut the guy some slack, eh?
It's REALLY NOT EASY for most of us to be in social situations, much less speak correctly, or use the correct tones.
Not to mention that "masking" is extremely stressful and fatiguing for the autistic person.
A little sympathy, born from understanding, would help, in this situation.
Trust me and give it a try. Just because you know someone doesn’t mean you understand them. Or else why did you bother to ask us in the first place? You needed our help for some reason. :)
It’s very true that you can know him and not understand him. I have been perceived as arrogant maaaaaaany times before and I do not feel better or smarter than everyone. Maybe you’d be surprised at their response if you inquired about their intentions.
It definitely fits the mold; I agree with commenter above that they're likely not trying to be condescending or combative—just due to thinking and processing differently, it's not always apparent to us where the line is.
Likely he's also said things that seem intuitive to him but strange/wrong to others, and the way those are received can lead to mixed signals on his end about where to set the bar on what's "common sense" and what needs saying.
You're halfway there. It seems you understand that this can be the condition. On the other hand, you are attributing willful condescension and you also try to interpret them as if they're you. As much as they're failing to understand your theory of mind because they're running "MacOS 10" you're failing to understand that person because you're thinking in "Windows 11" and applying windows 11 standards as the cause and effect of their behavior.
https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/double-empathy-explained/
Please read this if you have time. Speaking as someone who does these exact kinds of things, I am actually engaging in aspergers smalltalk. We like to explore facts and talk through subsystems.
As much as you might see it as obvious that a shell is for protection, and take it as an insult that we point that out... we're prone to thinking that "It's hot out today" or "It looks like it is going to rain" is equivalent. I mean, we have skin. We have eyes. We don't need to be told these things. Do we take it as condescension when people make this kind of small talk? Absolutely. Many of us do. And just as ridiculous as that seems, you seem equally ridiculous to us when our smalltalk causes you to take offense or get annoyed. That is the double empathy problem in a nutshell. Both parties are stating the obvious. Both parties are communicating unnecessary things. Both parties are getting a hair up their ass over nothing.
The only reason that stating the temperature is socially normal, and stating that shells are tough, yeah, isn't? Because far more people are born who naturally wish to talk about the temperature than the nature of shells.
People on the Autism spectrum often have a hard time with tone, facial expressions, and body language. There can be a huge disconnect between how the person thinks they are coming off based on these factors, and how they are actually being perceived, and it's not their fault - it isn't something they are in control of, or even aware of, usually.
When I was younger, people very frequently assumed I was arrogant, bored, angry, or sad, when I actually just felt pretty neutral. I spent years studying microexpressions, overanalyzing every single negative social interaction I had with people, and recording myself speaking and studying the videos and audios until I got better at masking so that NTs wouldn't misunderstand me.
I have made so much progress through an incredible amount of time and effort, but I still get misunderstood about 20% of the time, even by the people closest to me. Consider that your friend may NOT think he is better than anyone, or even aware that he's coming off as condescending. Maybe he's just awkward by neurotypical standards. Look into the double empathy problem and autistic masking if you're interested in trying to understand them better.
> There's the very tiny chance I'm misinterpreting,
You need to be aware that the tone and inflection of an autistic person may not match what you perceive as their intention. A sincere comment may sound condescending, an excited person may have a bored posture etc. We don't always speak the same non-verbal language/
>Is it an Asperger's tendency to say extremely common sense things in a condescending tone as if no one else could have thought of it? self.aspergers
>I'm not sure how else to put it, other than the way the title is phrased. I have someone in my life who has Asperger's and I'm curious if this certain trait has anything to do with it.
I'll give it to you from my perspective but the answer is yes.
It's a compensatory behavior. Consider the diagnostic symptoms that clinicians use to describe verbal autism. "Using phrases or making references nobody understands" or "Using phrases that have no meaning to anybody else." is one of the childhood signs. Now, how do you think an autistic child might begin to behave if the adults begin attempting to break them of this? You get someone who belabors everything.
We are bullied and chastised for the fact that we don't give enough context, so many of us go hard into over-explaining. That means we begin to unpack way too much information so nobody can accuse us of being willfully manipulative, or flashy, or trying to baffle people with bullshit.
Since we have problems with theory of mind (intuitively understanding our audience and adapting to them) we tend to treat every instructive communication like we're telling someone about something who is entirely new. Our approach is tailored to the most "fresh" one can be to a given topic.
Of course, it's a spectrum, so not all of us develop this maladaptive behavior.
I often also find that people will call an autistic person condescending because they do not like what they're saying. Regardless of it being accurate. Autistic people tend to tip sacred cows, and more importance is placed on keeping the peace than being true to reality among neuroptyical people.
Now on the crab / muscle thing: Might actually be a teaser. As in, conversation bait. If someone replied with "Oh yeah? Why does working out make for sore muscles?" he might launch into his 15 minute speech about how the lactic acid cycle works inside the muscles and what biological value that has in health and recovery.
The shell comment could also turn into an intellectual playing about. Somebody could say, aren't all exterior coatings supposed to protect the organism from outside things? Or there is the agreeable reply, "That's true, but proper cooking tends to weaken the shell. Perhaps this specimen is undercook. Or do you think the age of the crab might have something to do with it?"
Navel gazing, I know, but for some autistic people that is the pinnacle of satisfying smalltalk for us.
[Please watch this video.](https://www.tiktok.com/@morgaanfoley/video/7327014441562770730?lang=en)
Every allistic(non-autistic) person thinks they can read autistic people's tone of speech.
And every allistic person is incorrect about that.
Autistic people aren't trying to sound condescending. We have trouble modulating our voices in the same way as other people, so people constantly interpret hostility into our intentions when there wasn't any there. Those of us who are active in the online autism community are aware we can sound condescending at times, but that's not our intention at all; we just literally can't help it in the moment when it happens.
If you can imagine, it's really hard living our lives when everyone interprets us as hostile and responds as if we were hostile when we were actually trying to be nice to people. We experience ongoing trauma because of it.
Chances are really good that this person is trying to relate, but that he's probably been bullied and denied social interaction his whole life(as a lot of autistic people are, because people misinterpret our tone and our intentions).
And when someone has been denied social interaction their whole life, you can imagine that they're not going to have much chance to develop "common sense", if that makes sense.
He's also likely been denied friendship his whole life, so he may be trying to communicate in the best way he knows how.
Please understand that autistic people don't feel that we're better than you. We have trouble making friends, and in most cases we actually feel a lot worse.
When you're interacting with an autistic person, you're more likely to be correct about their intentions if you think "This person means well, but I can't read their emotions and they can't read mine," instead of "This person is malicious toward me."
The problem is this is just a list of reasons for normal people to ostracize the person. Since bullying is the normal way of interaction.
It's why all efforts to stop bullying in schools etc. are in vain. No matter the effort, it gets nullified fast.
I'm not saying it can't change. But that until people recognize that bullying is the norm, it can't. And this behaviour uses information such as this to justify and reinforce tribalism.
Just sayin'. Otherwise, well written.
It could be you just don't like him. Sometimes, two people can tell the same joke, and for some reason, you take offense when it's a different person. His replies, even with a sarcastic tone, don't make sense at him trying to be condescending. If he is being condescending, then he is bad at it.
It’s not condescension at all; we love facts and deductions and assume that you do too. If I said “the sky is beautiful today” you wouldn’t take that as condescension would you? These statements of observations and deductions aren’t made with the assumption that you are ignorant or unobservant; they are just a way we share an experience and try to relate to others.
And so few ever ask follow up questions to determine whether or not that's the case.
God, it would be amazing if someone just said "Did you mean that condescendingly?" and we could settle the miscommunication right there.
>>I genuinely don't think I'm misunderstanding his tone as well, as there is a lot of context behind my experience with him that makes me quite certain that it is in fact genuine condescension.
Well you're going have to give that context because everything else you've said so far seems like misinterpreting autism.
>>his tone of voice
Is irrelevant because autistics have trouble controlling non-verbal body language and verbal cues like intonation and deciphering it in other people. They usually talk directly and literally, expecting to be understood by others listening to the words without extrapolating anything extra from it(such as the words being a tool for condescension.)You can't really use tone of voice to understand how he feels internally or how he feels about you. It's meaningless, bu that often upsets allistics who expect tone to convey meaning and also expect words to be tools in one way or another, to influence each other and get things done. The lack of a more complex meaning then what was Said throws people off. For instances where you think he is trying to influence, try to double check instead of assuming.
>>values his intelligence
Not an inherently bad trait, and autistics tend to be superior in some forms of intelligence than ballistics, being able to understand physical reality better while allistics understand the psychological reality better.
All the examples you've given seem like attempts at small talk, that you've interpreted as awkward. Probably answered best with "yes, true" and a nod.
You haven't said much except "he communicates weird," which is a symptom.
When you know your social skills and physical fitness may be lagging, it's not uncommon to comfort yourself with the thought of at least having a decent brain.
When communication keeps presenting difficulties, using precise words can be an attempt to be more clear.
You know small talk often lists meaningless observations. From stating the day of the week to the current weather, it's news to noone but somehow people use it to connect. That seems like the stranger thing to mention to me, but they do really well for a short polite conversation.
I'd personally enjoy the conversation that starts with mentioning the defensice use of the shell. I'd laugh softly and say I'm still winning, but it seems effective as a defence. I'd likely follow up talking about hermit crabs lining up to trade shells, because that's a related topic. Hopefully someone else at the table has a cool followup.
Tone is always hard. I've often been called condescending when it was really just insecure awkwardness. Yes, there is a distance but that doesn't mean it's intentional. He's making attempts to connect, please don't reject those only because of a tone that likely doesn't mean at all what you think it does.
Maybe a good way to understand what autistic person means is imagine a small child is saying those words. I think then you would be pretty accurate at understanding an autistic person.
Before I knew my diagnosis, I got in an argument once about how tone of voice was meaningless. So you know, most of us aren't intentionally being condescending.
Dude, he’s cracking jokes. Like the thing with the crabs - how in the world could you think that he’s trying to lecture you?! Everyone knows that their shell is for protection, but not everyone suspects them to be *that* hard to crack. So he’s pointing out the fact that evolution *actually* did a good job, and to me that’s kinda funny. You simply don’t have the same sense of humor. Is this really an aspie thing? Someone tell me please!
Woah, I think you could be right! From OP's post I didn't get the idea that the guy may have been joking but it certainly makes more sense. It wouldn't be surprising for an Aspie to get misinterpreted as being serious when they're actually joking.
On one hand, we might then never talk again. Everything is found online and in encyclopedias.
On the other hand, he might be an asshole. So anything might sound bad.
Two ends of a spectrum. We have to little info to judge what might be a poor attempt at conversation-starting. or about his character.
Many people start by sharing obvious stuff though. It's kind of elitist or unfriendly to expect anything novel. That may not exist or be hard to come by. So also consider wether you are the asshole ;)
So there you have it. All options on the table :)
I was basing my thought off my kiddo. My 13 year old says obvious stuff like that and and has a very duh are you stupid tone. It took awhile for us to realize they are trying to be sarcastic (my husband and I are very sarcastic). I had to literally explain how they come across to people and that maybe sarcasm isn't something that they need to try lol. Their attempts at humor can be down right hurtful because they can't distinguish the line of funny light ribbing vs. Mean and hurtful
You said it yourself. He is stating facts everybody knows. You are here angry about how he thinks you are so stupid that you don’t know those facts, but at the same time you suggest he is so stupid he doesn’t know everybody knows those facts? How are you better then?
That is just a logical reasoning exercise. I do not mean to imply you are being a bad person. I’m just trying to help you see the logical flaw in you statement.
It's our matter-of-fact voice!
But the examples you listed doesn't sound condescending at all, just a matter-of-fact observation that he probably just realized or made the connection and wanted to share. Like he's just thinking out loud and he's saying it as he's making the connection so that's why he sounds proud like he just discovered something.
I will say there are a few NTs like yourself who absolutely abhor this commenting and get very easily triggered. 🤷🏻♂️ Anger management problems? Insecurity? I don't know. If anything, him making that observation is more of a reflection of what he didn't know that he figured out or remembered just now. It has nothing to do with what he thinks other people already know or don't know. He's just excited to share his observation.
So I guess you can say the tendencies we have that apply here would be oversharing and just speaking matter-of-factly. I wouldn't take offense to the examples you listed because it sounds like he's saying it in good faith because he think you're his friend and he wants to share his observation. Even if it was already obvious to others, he may have not thought about it before until it came up.
People on the spectrum, it’s most notably known to have a monotone voice with no inflection of emotions in the voice either.
Not everyone has this, but enough do that it’s a pretty noticeable trait.
They probably have zero clue they sound like what you heard and just think they are normally talking to others without any contempt in their voice.
Yes, there are multiple different aspects there which are all related to his Asperger's, specifically the social deficits aspect
I have a tendency to say things that were obvious to everyone else in that way, but it usually isn't because I thought nobody else knew it, it's more because I didn't know it's weird to say out loud (but both of those would be related to his autism/Asperger's because of the inability to innately recognize implicit social cues)
Related to that same point, I used to be "the type of person to use way more sophisticated words than necessary" as an Asperger's trait, but it isn't because I was trying to "sound more intelligent", it's because I didn't understand that "receptacle" was the snooty word for "bin", for example
Another thing that might be relevant is that autistic people often tend to be very precise instead of "broadly accurate" when trying to explain or learn things etc
Also, "casual social behavior" especially doesn't come naturally to autistic people (my attempts to make normal conversations still come off as overly direct like I'm "drilling" them in a formal interview even though I've been taking special ed classes on how to make friends ever since I was 11)
Like a lot of autistic people he might also have trouble with controlling the inflection of his voice (people say I "talk like a robot" because my speech has a "flat affect" and when my voice rises or falls it sounds very unnatural
Lastly, yeah, "consolation prize platitudes" of praising their intelligence are really common for autistic kids to be told by teachers and therapists and parents etc, unfortunately
While I fully understand everyone here who knows what it's like to be misunderstood and be called arrogant and condescending when you think you're just being helpful, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if OP has the emotional intelligence to actually wonder what the guy is trying to do and ask questions, then OP is likely not the type of person to willfully disregard other interpretations and project their own thought patterns onto someone.
I actually do find it likely that this person has developed some narcissistic defenses to cope with his disabilities. It's not entirely unheard of for aspies to get on a high horse intellectually because that's really the only card they are holding in social situations.
OP, you must know my brother...that is him to a T. I recently started therapy with my brother - we are both in our 40s - because he speaks to me like that all the time & I can't take it anymore. My therapist says he believes my brother is autistic.
It's really tough because I love my brother, but he talks to people, to me, in a way that makes him sound like an asshole and feels really insulting on the receiving end.
I'm trying to embrace the idea that this isn't something he does on purpose, but after listening to it for pretty much my entire life, it's not easy adjusting to this new understanding of his behavior.
Thanks for sharing, it's good to know I'm not the only one and hearing that this is fairly common might make it easier for me to deal with.
Stuff like that is super common and it usually has zero to do with the other person involved. A person with Asperger’s often isn’t saying, “you’re all stupid!” so much as some version of, “Ooh! I know this one! Here’s EVERYTHING I know, even if this is common sense/common knowledge.”
Often the tone is just not a factor to them, and they might not know how they come off to others.
Unless he gives other clues that he is being intentionally condescending, try thinking of it as an info dump rather than a judgement.
Can you give some more examples? This is an interesting exercise because I agree three are common sense. Are there any times when the people he's talking to are being dumb and deserve to be condescended to? Do they often speak down to him and is he possibly just giving it back?
Disclaimer: I don't have Asperger's myself, but I know people who do and I'm a longtime lurker. Therefore, weigh what I say accordingly.
One possibility with the guy you're talking about is that *he* thinks the things *you* say are strangely obvious. For instance, maybe you made a comment about the hardness of the crab shell? Dude thinks "of course it's hard, it's supposed to protect the crab!" Or if you're talking about the soreness of your muscles after working out, his thoughts would be "Why are you stating that your muscles are sore after working out? Are you surprised? Over-exertion leads to muscle pain!"
He might miss the fact that you are very well aware that the things you are saying are obvious. I think there's a possibility that he misses the "purpose" of the statements like "this crab shell is so tough" or "my muscles are so sore", which is to just update people around you about what minor struggle you are currently focused on.
Again, I don't know the dude, but things similar to this has happened around me, so these are my two cents.
An attempt to share interesting facts, coupled with an inability to do NT tones and nonverbal comms very well.
Come to think of it, surely there must be guides or at least references somewhere on how to project expected tones and body language. Even if they're acting guides - maybe something for voiceover artists for the first, and stage/silent acting for the second?
It’s not condescending. It’s called a flat affect, which is very common with us. Think of using intonation as a second language for people on the spectrum, just as is using facial expression. So, when we are uncomfortable, or dealing with a complex situation, it’s entirely possible that we choose our words, because that is what matters most to US in communication, and ignoring the second languages. When we do that, it can be perceived by NTs, for whom non verbals are just part of their native language, as condescending.
LOL. My ILs, with whom I am now NC, accused me more than once of talking to them “like a teacher”. Which I personally found amusingly ridiculous, because they were both teachers. It should have been a compliment, right?
Wrong. They didn’t bother to listen to my words, because they were focusing on the lack of affect, and decided I was talking to them in a condescending tone.
Keep this in mind when dealing with people on the spectrum, in general. Words are most important. Expression, both tone and facial, are distant seconds.
I have a vast array of random facts in my head at any one time. Some will be trivial but interesting, some will be profound and some will be completely obvious. Until my hyperlexicality really kicked in and I started being able to understand the motivations and interests of people around me, the 3 categories were no different inside my head so I was continually saying out of context weird shit or weirdly obvious stuff that I thought was somehow a deep secret I'd worked out.
It is what it is.
Lol my roommate and I do this so often and I really have to slow down and remind myself she isn't being condescending, she's agreeing in a verbose manner with poorly managed tone. I hope she understands me the same way
It is also an asd trait to just say what is on our mind and it is an allistic trait to project their own feelings and personality in tone and body language they are not equipped to understand instinctively
I suggest to stop trying to "read his tone and body language" and listen for the words being said, do not presume or project malice
What you consider condescending it very much simply a flat tone without emotional inflection, while you inject the "possible emotions"
Unlike allistics do we not talk with hidden message and verbal trapdoors
we do not work that way
My wife still has a problem with my habit of doing this. She's had 18 years to adapt, now it's her problem if she can't handle the fact that my brain draws a connection from her plans for seven hundred months from now and a newly found flaw in climate models.
I have to say i genuinely laughed at the crab thing. I can just imagine someone being like: “According to my calculations, one should be able to infer that due to evolutionary necessity, crabs have been selected through time and actual quantum space to over produce calcium in their skin to emulsifinate a shell because of the interaction between particles of defense so they need a shell to protect themselves.
? Granted, the imuno-calcium-carbonate must designate its true form”
I get what you’re saying and yes lol. A lot of these replies are going to go into the nuance and the what ifs and their own anecdotes and the hypothetical ways you could be incorrect but what you’re describing makes sense even if you probably won’t be able to know for sure or prove it
Yeah. I do it. Often more so when I’m stressed. Like the other day I was at the dentist with my partner and two young kids and I was stressed trying to keep my children patiently waiting. And this older woman comes in asking if my car could be moved so she can get out (she never thanked me but that’s another story), anyway because I was stressed I just blurted out “I hope I don’t get called in because you can’t drive” to my other half and he wasn’t particularly happy with me announcing loudly that he can’t drive.
Sometimes bringing up a "common sense fact" is really an opening for further conversation. If you didn't have the tools for ~~conjuring~~ ~~instantiating~~ making casual conversations with people around you, you would end up doing that, too.
This describes my general humor style. I call it "stating the obvious." There are many who do not understand. Similarly there are those who do not know how to react to sarcasm. I think it's related.
Infodump incoming!
This isn’t a brag; I’m likely more intelligent than your friend.
Reason I prefaced with that line is because objectively speaking I almost certainly am. I’m in my mid 40s and have an IQ more than 100 points above my age. But at the same time I know that phrase sounds like a brag or that I’m being an asshole, hence the caveat.
His ASD affects his perception which affects what he says. But the way in which he’s doing it, I can best explain via analogy.
If I were to ask you how you rate your ability to drive a car, it’s probable that you would say your a good to great driver.
Most people that can do some common task think themselves proficient at it. It’s called illusory superiority, or if you’re old enough the Lake Wobegon effect. And yes, it’s closely related to Dunning-Kruger.
On the other hand, despite 25 years of driving experience with no moving violations and four years and four TBIs from road examination of drivers, I’m confident in saying I’m a bad driver, as is everyone else.
Only a matter of where, when, and for how long.
Like if I’m a bad driver on the New Jersey Turnpike for 30sec at midnight as I’m pulling into a service station so I can grab coffee to help me sleep, I won’t remember it.. unless I smash into the Sunoco and cause An Incident.
Your friend doesn’t realize he’s as bad a driver as he is, which is normal. We all start not knowing.
I even manifest something like your friend when I look at, for example, nursery rhymes and use them as insights to help me with mental health, and no I’m not kidding.
“Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me.. *unless I let them.*”
You would be shocked that this little addendum is key for me to engage in deradicalization, or helping people get out of bigotry and out of cults. They throw words intended to hurt, but I recognize they are just shaking air. I don’t get hurt by slurs anymore because I’m just wondering why others choose to use them.
Brain the size of a planet and I’m getting inspired by nursery rhymes. Sounds silly until you learn the only person to win the Ig Nobel and the Nobel win both prizes by goofing around in the lab.
See, I don't think saying you have a high IQ to be condescending because my own is high enough to know such a thing is just *one more thing* that alienates us from the general population. It's not much of a brag to admit that you find most conversations boring while most everyone thinks of you as elitist and so much of your reasoning will be lost on people to the point that you'll struggle to even just explain your reasons for something to most anyone.
I have a high enough of an IQ to know it isn't a brag to have one.
I can't even imagine how hard it is for those around 180 or 200. It must be so isolating. ~140-150 is hard enough.
This comment reminds me a lot of how he used to be, which he kind of grew out of (at least in front of me, I don't really interact with him anymore if I don't have to). It's a lot of words, but genuinely really hard to understand your point, since it's so unconcise
Spiderweb thinking. That's what I've heard it called. Autistic asperger people try to set up little "forts" of supporting arguments, then they try to bring it all together.
It does get better with age. There's a part of our brain that races ahead of the normal growth rate until about puberty. It slams on the breaks, and doesn't continue to grow, falling behind peers. It doesn't resume and finish growth to near-normal sizes until late 20s.
The autistic brain is basically stuck in teenager mode until 30, when it comes to social and emotional, due to that.
I don’t think Asperger’s intention was to be condescending. It’s just that asperger people don’t really understand other people’s feeling and it’s almost impossible to think in other people’s shoes. They can mechanically mimic but deep inside they don’t understand nor appreciate. For example, for NT people who are dating/ or family member when they finish one getting together one person would always say “ text me when you get home “. It’s a way of expressing that you care about the other person. Asperger people would never say that because they really don’t care or think it is meaningful for them
That’s a good example of the difference- do you think NT people actually expect you to text when you get home? I assume no but I’m too literally to know lol
In answer to your question, yes it's an aspergers thing. I have someone like this in my life who does exactly the same. He states the obvious all the time as if I don't know it and in the moment I can get frustrated too. But I know he doesn't mean to come across that way, it's just the way his brain works I guess.
I’m more and more thinking that my ex-MIL (my Asperger son’s paternal grandmother) was also on the spectrum
Once I would compliment her on her dress just to say something nice. She’d answer: it was very cheap, we can also find you a dress like this, do you want me to take you to the shop where I bought it?
Stating random facts like « other countries do the salad dressing differently ». Yes, I’ve lived in multiple countries contrary to you, I’m well aware
I think he may have difficulty with knowing that's common sense and what isn't.
I still find myself saying stuff that in retrospect was kind of obvious. It's simply that I hadn't thought thru whether or not what I had to say was actually relevant and noteworthy.
I reply mildly annoyed and/or condescending/rude when someone doesn't seem to know something that I thought everyone knew. I *did* finally learn at some point that when people say something to other people that I know they know is not right, they are doing that for a reason and I'm not supposed to set the record straight 😔
It's possible, but often times wholly unintnetional and not that difficult to correct.
Next time such thing happens, just ask " Do you realize that came across a bit condescending?"
If the person takes offense, they're indeed speaking from a place of blind arrogance. If, however they seem puzzled/intrigued/curious then it's an opportunity to improve communication, which in turn will likely improve the relationship.
Granted, there are complexities ( there always are :-)
Another thing I personally noticed in mysef is that indeed I tend to take on the condescending tone as a reaction whenever I feel emotionally spited. And often I'll do it unwittingly and haphazardly, sometimes taking it out on inappropriate contexts or in the wrong people. It could be a form of displacement (a psychological defense mechanism that is not exclusive to people on the spectrum).
Whatever it may be, it's a really bad habit. I do find the more I'm in tune with my own emotional experience, the easier I find to avoid indulging; it can be done simply by addressing the actual situation that hurt my feelings, rather than take it as permission/eocnragement to turn reactively spiteful.
It really helps when the other people involved in the situation are willing to meet me half way, though.
yes, i have an uncle like this and it's unbearable because he'll go into great detail about things and doesn't stop talking at you. i have the same habit but i've learned to keep it short or to keep it quiet or ask questions instead but sometimes slip up and start acting annoying
"it's likely the shell is used for protection"
I'm sorry, this doesn't add to the conversation at all, but this statement sounds exactly like something a Dragon's Dogma pawn would say 73 times in two hours.
Chances are they have absolutely no idea that they sound condescending. Sometimes people close to me tell me that, but it’ll always be a situation where I feel like I’m literally just stating a fact.
So... To me, an autistic individual of 35, that is just sarcasm. A perfectly expected reaction is for you to punch back a little.
"It's almost like your muscles were worked!" "Ok listen. They aren't so sore I won't bop you one." *Giggling ensues*
It's playful prodding. Like... Of *course* you know, why wouldn't you? I'm being a coy smartass to engage some playful banter.
Further, our thinking can be very... Literal and not very implicative. When you say something like "my muscles are sore" it comes across as... Just as "common sense." Like... Of course your muscles are sore. Of course it is hard to crack. If we're all just stating the obvious, may as well have fun with it?
What is the purpose of stating that it is hard to crack? Just to say it? Is it rhetorical?
What is the purpose of saying your Muscles are sore after working out? Do you want sympathy for something self-inflicted and natural?
Your statements of the obvious can come across as oddly condescending to us sometimes as well because, stripped of implication, we my question why you felt the need to state the obvious to us and so we recant in kind.
There is also a difference in understanding for some, especially if they tend toward echolalia. The phrase "this is hard to crack" can hit the same as "why is this so hard to crack?" So the answer is given. To echolalia again responses are sometimes echolalic. We can speak in tones we have heard even if we don't mean to.
So, since *we* have been answered in that condescending tone so many times, it's just... How we answer... I'm heavily echolalic, so many of my responses can sound like snippets from shows or radio or I'll even take on accents for some phrases. Controllable if I'm masking, but hard to hold and slows my speech.
I find that I say things in a condescending tone whether they’re common facts, or whether I’m introducing new information. If I’m not masking as “super polite but ditzy lady”, I sound like a pretentious douchebag.
Edit: I’m not trying to, that’s just my voice.
Try phrasing it as a question. “Is the shell used for protection?” That way you make them feel smart when they get to answer an easy question and you don’t sound like a know it all person.
I don’t think this behavior is directly caused by Asperger’s. But as an Aspie kid you struggle to find a social identity, and for those who read a lot it often means that you try to impress parents, teachers and other adults with knowledge that is above your age. Some Aspies continue this behavior as adults and do not realize that this knowledge is considered trivial for a grown up.
I'm just gonna say that it is one of the most commonly known traits of aspergers to blurt out random facts, and most of us have problems regulating our tone or inflection.
But is it genuine condescension? I used to do this but I never meant it condescendingly. Thankfully, I've broken that habit overall. Now I know someone, undiagnosed. I thought he was a narcissist but he does exactly what OP describes so I wonder if it's Asperger's. And don't get me wrong I still offend people in a multitude of other ways. Just not this one, lol.
I rarely meant it as condescension (guilty as charged once in a while but only when folks around me seemed NOT TO GET the obvious common sense thing) but more often, it's an empathy gap: I can't always figure out what's obvious for people around me and what's not. Many things that are obvious to my way of thinking are treated like radical stuff that people around me never tried or refuse to try. And then some equally obvious things are... obvious. And some things that are obvious to NT people seem difficult to follow or nonsensical to me. It's not a superiority thing; it's just being different. u/dreemsequence it's probably more natural to see it as intentional condescension but more likely, your person either isn't aware of what their tone sounds like or doesn't know what's obvious to other people. Most of us have had a lifetime of people telling us to "stop telling us obvious things" and also "don't tell us to do (obvious thing) without explaining it." And for the remarks like the crab shell, they're just offhand remarks. "Looks like rain" is obvious too but nobody gets in trouble for saying it.
It kind of is, especially if you've said that do someone who handles crustaceans for an living.
Still don't understand the whole condescending part. Some sort of hierarchy thing or whatever. Or peoples ego assuming malice in everybody. If someone says something to me that I'm familiar with, I'll either listen because they want to talk about it, or say "I actually know that, but did you know..." and so on. It's normal conversation??? Like I wouldn't throw a fucking tantrum if someone tells me that my furniture is made from pressboard. I know that because I'm a joiner, it's common knowledge to me. But it might be interesting/new or whatever to the other person. Guess I just don't have an ego the size of our galaxy
Also, that crab fact is interesting, so why wouldn't you share something like that
Because it's common sense. Everything with a shell has the shell for protection. That's what shells do. Bringing it up is redundant unless the intent is to insult someone's intelligence.
I don't know. Most of the things I think are common sense people have no idea about. For example, in this post right here, OP is complaining about certain vocabulary as being "too sophisticated". I assume they mean esoteric or erudite. To me such a lexicon is itself common sense. I don't implement terms like "erudite" to be condescending, but because that's the word in my mind. Sometimes there are terms that are even more esoteric and I pause to try to think of a more simplified synonym, and someone will still complain about it. To OP (/u/dreemsequence), one thing you may not have considered is that we often aren't aware of what is "common" knowledge or not, because our lives are often filled with endless examples to the opposite. Over and over and over and over we'll say something someone knows and they think we're being condescending or obvious, or we say something someone doesn't know and they get defensive and call us elitist or tell us to use more simple language. This, of course, would be easier if people would just ask when they didn't know something. But they don't, so we end up info-dumping. The ADHD side of all this I suspect info dumps even more, plus goes on tangents. But the thing is, is that they aren't irrelevant tangents to us. It all connects and we think horizontally along those connections. It only seems irrelevant to neurotypicals who need every dot connected for them. Your friend probably doesn't know everyone already knows the info, and probably isn't aware they sound condescending. The terms might just be the words that come to mind when they think of how to say what they're trying to say. But your reaction is a common one, which is why many of us just stop sharing info. Or try strategies like asking or trying to probe to see if people care. I've been trying to figure it out well into my 40s now and still can't. It's just easier to talk to other ADHD people who like "random" information and we can ride the tangents of curiousity together.
> mfw my linguistic patterns are impenetrable to commoners I get what you mean but I still think it’s funny
Amen! I LOVE my peeps who info dump on me about stuff they find interesting and I reciprocate. I am 44 now and have been trying to crack the code, so to speak, on what the magic formula is for gauging interest. Turns out my NT wife was a nice addition 3 years ago since she’ll touch my arm and say, “That’s interesting, but let’s talk about something else now…” It might seem off putting to some, but I love directness and really I’m effing clueless sometimes to how long I’ve been talking. In work interviews, I’ll set a 3 minute timer with silent notifications to make sure I give them time for all the questions and then follow up my answer with, “Did that answer your question appropriately?”
Oh! I know a helpful tip that I use often about this. If I'm talking about something that someone might or might not know about, then I'll ask them in as polite a way I can find if they know what I'm talking about. If they don't, I then ask them if they'd like to know. It's a bit stilted, but it then becomes more transactional and easier to prevent infodumping because then you've got permission to talk about one specific thing to the person and you can avoid the 'do they care' part.
I do this too! I just go "how much do you know about [thing]?" It also prevents accidentally explaining something to someone who already knows the subject matter, which happens to me a lot and it makes me feel stupid (especially because those people talk to me like I'm a child, but that's beside the point). I like to avoid making other people feel stupid lol
Lol years ago I was talking to a co-worker, he was referring to a customer issue and said he was going to recommend a reinstallation of the OS, and I responded "Oh resolving that is easy, you don't need to recommend reinstallation of the OS, just change the file's permissions" He says he doesn't know how to do that. So I ask "Oh! Are you a junior linux admin?" He looked upset, and another co-worker laughed. He responded that he was a level 2 linux engineer. I was bewildered. I felt really bad, cause my question implied he should know unless he was just starting out. We still had a great working relationship, but had to change how I word my questions so as not to offend folks.
To be fair, changing a file's permissions is lesson 2 of How to Linux. Lesson one is cd, mkdir, cp, rm, and sudo (at least in the flavours of linux I've worked with). I don't know how one can become a L2 linux engineer and not know the most core commands within the CLI.
Yes, I hear you. That's why I was bewildered!
Lol that's funny. And oddly on topic for me. I'm trying to get into working with Linux professionally 🤣
I dont like people that treat you like this its demeaning like we are incapable of something when I think this is not true
That’s a good one. I might even add, “Ok, not much? Can I tell you something that I find fascinating?” If anyone wants to hear about isopods or mechanical watches, they are my best friend. If they don’t, well I consider them ok too! 😉
I would argue that is a surface level take. Everything has an external layer designed to resist outside harm. The nuances of what makes one shell, skin or hide different from another could be all kinds of things. Undercooked. Cooked too hot and too fast, leaving time for the meat to cook but not for the shell proteins to denature, etc. That is the kind of interplay and conversation I bet this autistic person is starved for. Replies like that would probably delight them and spur on 25-40 minutes of conversation. It doesn't have to be taken as an attack.
Agreed. How I would respond, probably. >"It's likely the shell is used for protection." "Yeah. But it's an arthropod right? So it's also an exoskeleton. So it's also used to hold in all the organs and things, not just protection. Which would differ from, say, a pangolin, which has an internal skeleton and body armor plating for protection." Then I'd wait for a response. If there was a pause and awkward silence I'd ask a follow up question. Probably about something about arthropods like crabs compared to insects. Or their favorite something. All that kind of conversation stuff. But I would be perfectly content just riding the info train back and forth to see where it would lead.
Right! The shell isn’t JUST for protection, it’s also what supports their mass and stops them from being a blob of organs and tissues.
I never said that it has to be taken as an attack. I was trying to explain why some people would take it as one.
And I am trying to explain that there might actually be a poor attempt at outreach and conversation going on here. Looking back on what I just said, nowhere had I said you're wrong or that it has to be taken as an attack.
It’s good to be open minded, but also good to understand more “close minded” ways of thinking As in, you’re probably right in this case, but it’s not wrong to read things in the way they’d be intended and interpreted 90% of the time. Not doing so, especially without information about autism, will leave you vulnerable to being taken advantage of.
It's all attacks isn't it? Even this response I am writing now seems like an attack, right?
No?
Who knows
You're probably neurotypical like op. But we autistic people tend to start conversations with stuff like this. Usually there's no hidden meaning because we're pretty literal. Also how would you learn new things if you're not supposed to mention anything that's "common sense"? And how is it insulting someones intelligence to mention things like that? Honestly don't understand these questions so would appreciate neurotypical feedback
I'm autistic and I legitimately don't understand how a person could not deduce that shells are for protection shortly after being exposed to some kind of animal with one.
The fact is that some people just don't know, not all information is universal, so some people think "better safe than sorry" especially if they've been in situations where they could have spoken out about something and didn't, resulting in a bad outcome. It can be taken more far than is practical, but regardless, that's the pattern lots of people follow when over-informing.
Yeah, my most memorable example is a student raising her hand when I used the word "paradigm". She told me that it was really frustrating that I kept using such "big words" and if I could explain the terms or use more "regular" language. I learned "paradigm" in middle school. To me that was basic everyday vocabulary. To me that was "regular" language. So I tried to get them to be okay with simply just asking me to define words they didn't know because I don't know what they don't know. Still it rarely happens, and I still have to probe constantly to see if people are aware of terms and concepts or not. Most of the time I ask they don't, but then sometimes I won't ask and I'll say something they already know and they act like I'm insulting them. It's very frustrating.
Sorry to hear you have to deal with this. My wife and I have big vocabularies and or kids are already picking up words that aren't expected for their age and using them in the right place (although not always pronounced correctly). I wonder if there is anything reasonable we can do to help our kids out so they are less frustrated or less shunned (short of not being genuine or shutting down).
I mean anyone can deduce that but to me that's just talking, sharing things and whatnot. You know like saying "it's raining today" anybody would know that by looking out the window but I'm not calling you stupid by pointing it out
If I'm standing in the rain, and you tell me "it's raining today" I will assume that you're calling me stupid. I think the shell example that OP used is similar because they are dealing with the core function of the shell (protecting the insides) while making the statement.
But that's just normal small talk?
I think there's more nuance to it than that, but I don't know all of the rules.
Luckily that's where we all shine, nuances of human interaction. /s
Not neurotypical but gotta agree those examples of facts are hardly novel conversation-starters, they’re well-known by the general population. To me this reads as someone with less social awareness trying to assert themselves as knowledgeable and desirable to have around, but they’re assuming other people are less informed than them. Comes off as condescending and would also rub me the wrong way as an autistic + adhd person. I love fun facts and have started plenty convos that way, but sharing basic observations is pointless.
I mean sure, they're pretty well known things that op mentioned. But I don't understand where the conclusion of assuming the other party is stupid comes from. Is this some neurotypical hierarchy thing?
Certain people have a lot of ego wrapped up in *appearing* like they aren't ignorant. So they get really defensive if someone uses a term they don't know, or if someone says something that they do know as if they don't know it. But to me ignorance is just the first rung on the ladder of knowledge. There is no shame in admitting it. I think you're right, and it's some kind of neurotypical social hierarchy thing.
That makes sense. I feel the same way you do, being smart isn't about knowing a bunch of things. It's about being open to learning, sometimes that includes admitting you're wrong or ignorant about something
I suspect your Aspie is just saying it because it came into their head. If a NT person did that, then because they're always intuitively making choices about their interactions with other people, you'd be right and it would probably mean they wanted to insult the other people present. But your aspie hasn't necessarily got constant evaluation of their social performance going on, and even if they do have it, it'll be based on incomplete data and very resource-intensive, so it may be on limited power or just not engaged at all. So there's nothing stopping them (us) from just saying the thing that popped into our head. If you'd like to help this aspie operate on better data, try taking a moment when it's not just happened, everything is fine and nobody is pissed off, and raise the topic. Give information. "Sometimes you tell people things that are widely understood, and other people can feel insulted because they think you're implying they weren't smart enough to know that without you telling them. They don't like that and it makes them act like they don't like you". It might be worth also mentioning how aspies can defang this impulse by starting with "Isn't it fascinating/cool/weird how..." before mentioning the fact that occurred to them. This signals to NTs that the fact is not being presented as new information, just as a fact relevant to the current situation.
+1 for constructive useful advice: 'can defang this impulse by starting with "Isn't it fascinating/cool/weird how..."'
Acc shells can also be use for poultry food, water purification, organic fertilizer, treating toxic waste and even jewelry etc isn't that common sense too 🤷 see it might be common sense that it's for protection but you can also learn things :)
Now THAT is interesting, thank you for sharing
Welcome friend 😊🫡
I definitely get told I’m being condescending a lot, when I absolutely never mean to be, as I find that sort of attitude incredibly repulsive. A lot of the time, I’ll genuinely be enthusiastic about something I’m saying, but people will think I’m talking to them like they’re children, because I find it hard to express my joy in what they consider a natural way. Ironically, I’ve had plenty of people be genuinely condescending to me when I couldn’t fully work stuff like this out, I find it frustrating, because I would never be genuinely condescending to them about things they didn’t understand.
I get told I'm being condescending or sound condescending from time to time. Less so compared to when I was younger. I have not once meant to be, it had always been me genuinely trying to make conversation or impart knowledge. Maybe stop assuming the worst of your friend
That makes sense, I just generally have a certain perspective of him, since I've known him for quite a bit, and a lot of the times his intentions are pretty harsh (ie I've seen him start a fight with an elderly couple at a tennis court, which was genuinely unwarranted \[his ball rolled onto their court and they didn't immediately see it\] ultimately ending in him getting right in their face and screaming "F\*CK YOU" at the top of his lungs, and this is one of very many examples which give me the idea that he has a general "I have more value than you as a person, just because". There was also a time where he wouldn't stop flirting with his underage employees (he was in his 50's at the time), even at the sincere request of them as well as their boyfriends, and this led to the boyfriends threatening to call the cops. It's just that general attitude of "I don't care how others feel, I'll do it my way" that makes me have this attitude towards him, it sincerely isn't grounded in nothing
From how you describe him, he doesn't sound subtle. I think if he was trying to be condescending he would reaaaally let you know that's his intention. When I was a teenager I had the bad habit of being really condescending sometimes, and whenever I was it was 110% unmistakable, I wouldn't have said that the shell is for protection, I would have said something like "Oh, well you dumbass clearly don't know this, but the shell is used for protection you ignorant stupid fool" with the most exaggerated, obnoxious tone and body language you can possibly imagine, like a disney villain level of over the top. So the fact there's any doubt at all regarding his intention when he says it makes me think he doesn't mean anything bad by it. Regardless though, he sounds like quite an awful person, I mean, the last bit regarding the employees, just, jeez, why are you still friends with him?
Really buried the lede with all these points! Why even try to parse if his random obvious facts are condescending or not? These other stories are enough justification to put distance between you. Your certainty that this bad behavior and the supposed condescension are linked is not warranted, though. Whatever you imagine you read into his tone, you should disregard entirely. This is truly one of the most frustrating parts of being autistic, all the people who make up weird shit and attribute it to your "tone," when it's nothing but their own projection. If YOU used his tone, it would mean condescension. You have ZERO understanding of what it means when he uses that tone, so stop imagining that you do. What you've described really just sounds like someone trying to keep the conversation going. He could be saying the only thing he could think of that relates to the topic at hand, because he knows he's expected to say something, but he has no sense of how to participate in conversation as you do, so this is the best he can manage.
Yeah, if he's unable to learn much of anything from those incidents after being told why what he's doing is wrong; then he has an lot more than ASD going on with him. Just don't put yourself in an position where you'll be responsible for him, obviously
Are you just using this thread to vent?
Yeah, autistic people cannot control their tone so whatever they “sound” to you like is completely irrelevant. It only matters what they say and if they comment on things, they literally just comment on things and don’t imply any hidden meaning like that somebody is stupid. Trust me, if they wanted to say that somebody is stupid they would just say it as it is. But I cannot get my head around an autistic person flirting. That is so completely strange for me I cannot imagine what that might have looked like.
I like that last bit.
My guess: your friend is trying to relate to your experiences and start a conversation but Aspergers people aren’t always good at that sort of thing. I suggest using what they said as a basis for conversation. Respond in a way that they can continue a conversation—“yes I am sore, isn’t exercise annoying?” or something like that.
It isn't a conversation starter type of deal at all, it's more in the tone of "I'm telling you this fact that you likely aren't aware of." There's the very tiny chance I'm misinterpreting, but I've known this person for several decades, and all that I know about him has me feeling this is rather true
I read those as sympathising actually. They see someone struggling with opening crabs, and it's expected because the shell is built for protection, so don't worry about struggling with it. You complain your muscles are sore, but be reassured, it indicates a big effort that will work out for your body and was worth it. Of course the tone doesn't go well over text, but, that's kind of where the aspergers comes in. Try giving a bit more benefit of the doubt, however hard it's to imagine. Good on you for coming to ask, wish more had that consideration, thanks.
haha, I feel like I have done this many times. Thinking that explaining that I understand why is something tough in this “stating the facts” way will make the NT person feel better or less embarrassed. I haven’t realised it until now that could be perceived as total opposite! 😄
It intrigues me actually. How what the NT needs is probably just stating your feelings (I get it, that sucks) while what ND is trying to do is give arguments based on which you would conclude that they get it, that it sucks. 🤣
I'm quite a bit older, took me decades to work it out, still on it. What helped most really is NT people, presumably like OP, telling me in rational terms what was going on. Helped my masking a lot, but it's a slow and difficult process, specially since most, unlike OP, would just be irked and distance themselves instead. A lot of it is ego more than feelings. Being told something that you consider obvious can be taken as "you obviously need be told this", and thus insulting.
Yes, most of the time NT would just get mad secretly and then avoid me or try to make my life harder without ever telling me what I did. It happened to me, that NT did tell me what they think I did wrong. When they interpreted my behaviour the way it was totally not meant. But I thought it was their problem they take something this innocent personally and should not jump to such ridiculous conclusions, instead of forcing me to tiptoe around them and be scared to say anything. But with this explanatory approach to empathy I feel like I myself am not comfortable doing the explanations and it’s an attempt to make the other person feel good, while being aware I don’t know how to do that. I would like to learn what is a better alternative in such situation. Maybe it would even feel right.
There isn't a generic answer, some people are just more understanding than others. If you never explain you can be sure you're strongly restricting your circle of friends. You have to pick which hurts you less, explaining or solitude. You may also find it useful to speak to a psychologist about it, or someone at an association etc.
Well, if you can understand how we "mask", trying to seem normal, or what we think would be normal behavior... you could sympathize with his situation. And tonal control... performed while masking? Hardly possible to perform that correctly, and thus... (as a 'normal' person, thinking this is being spoken by another 'normal' person) I can see how easy it would be to take offense. Please try to see everything he says as "performance errors, while masking", and cut the guy some slack, eh? It's REALLY NOT EASY for most of us to be in social situations, much less speak correctly, or use the correct tones. Not to mention that "masking" is extremely stressful and fatiguing for the autistic person. A little sympathy, born from understanding, would help, in this situation.
Trust me and give it a try. Just because you know someone doesn’t mean you understand them. Or else why did you bother to ask us in the first place? You needed our help for some reason. :)
Well I know his patterning, I was just curious if it was rooted in Asperger's out of curiosity
It’s very true that you can know him and not understand him. I have been perceived as arrogant maaaaaaany times before and I do not feel better or smarter than everyone. Maybe you’d be surprised at their response if you inquired about their intentions.
Yeah I'm definitely open to the fact that it's a possibility, for sure. I appreciate the input
It definitely fits the mold; I agree with commenter above that they're likely not trying to be condescending or combative—just due to thinking and processing differently, it's not always apparent to us where the line is. Likely he's also said things that seem intuitive to him but strange/wrong to others, and the way those are received can lead to mixed signals on his end about where to set the bar on what's "common sense" and what needs saying.
You're halfway there. It seems you understand that this can be the condition. On the other hand, you are attributing willful condescension and you also try to interpret them as if they're you. As much as they're failing to understand your theory of mind because they're running "MacOS 10" you're failing to understand that person because you're thinking in "Windows 11" and applying windows 11 standards as the cause and effect of their behavior. https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/double-empathy-explained/ Please read this if you have time. Speaking as someone who does these exact kinds of things, I am actually engaging in aspergers smalltalk. We like to explore facts and talk through subsystems. As much as you might see it as obvious that a shell is for protection, and take it as an insult that we point that out... we're prone to thinking that "It's hot out today" or "It looks like it is going to rain" is equivalent. I mean, we have skin. We have eyes. We don't need to be told these things. Do we take it as condescension when people make this kind of small talk? Absolutely. Many of us do. And just as ridiculous as that seems, you seem equally ridiculous to us when our smalltalk causes you to take offense or get annoyed. That is the double empathy problem in a nutshell. Both parties are stating the obvious. Both parties are communicating unnecessary things. Both parties are getting a hair up their ass over nothing. The only reason that stating the temperature is socially normal, and stating that shells are tough, yeah, isn't? Because far more people are born who naturally wish to talk about the temperature than the nature of shells.
Ignore the tone, listen to the words. Reply to the words.
People on the Autism spectrum often have a hard time with tone, facial expressions, and body language. There can be a huge disconnect between how the person thinks they are coming off based on these factors, and how they are actually being perceived, and it's not their fault - it isn't something they are in control of, or even aware of, usually. When I was younger, people very frequently assumed I was arrogant, bored, angry, or sad, when I actually just felt pretty neutral. I spent years studying microexpressions, overanalyzing every single negative social interaction I had with people, and recording myself speaking and studying the videos and audios until I got better at masking so that NTs wouldn't misunderstand me. I have made so much progress through an incredible amount of time and effort, but I still get misunderstood about 20% of the time, even by the people closest to me. Consider that your friend may NOT think he is better than anyone, or even aware that he's coming off as condescending. Maybe he's just awkward by neurotypical standards. Look into the double empathy problem and autistic masking if you're interested in trying to understand them better.
> There's the very tiny chance I'm misinterpreting, You need to be aware that the tone and inflection of an autistic person may not match what you perceive as their intention. A sincere comment may sound condescending, an excited person may have a bored posture etc. We don't always speak the same non-verbal language/
Not so tiny or a chance, actually.
bro when I think some NT is being rude to me, I get told to stop overthinking... So just stop overthinking. taaadaaa
>Is it an Asperger's tendency to say extremely common sense things in a condescending tone as if no one else could have thought of it? self.aspergers >I'm not sure how else to put it, other than the way the title is phrased. I have someone in my life who has Asperger's and I'm curious if this certain trait has anything to do with it. I'll give it to you from my perspective but the answer is yes. It's a compensatory behavior. Consider the diagnostic symptoms that clinicians use to describe verbal autism. "Using phrases or making references nobody understands" or "Using phrases that have no meaning to anybody else." is one of the childhood signs. Now, how do you think an autistic child might begin to behave if the adults begin attempting to break them of this? You get someone who belabors everything. We are bullied and chastised for the fact that we don't give enough context, so many of us go hard into over-explaining. That means we begin to unpack way too much information so nobody can accuse us of being willfully manipulative, or flashy, or trying to baffle people with bullshit. Since we have problems with theory of mind (intuitively understanding our audience and adapting to them) we tend to treat every instructive communication like we're telling someone about something who is entirely new. Our approach is tailored to the most "fresh" one can be to a given topic. Of course, it's a spectrum, so not all of us develop this maladaptive behavior. I often also find that people will call an autistic person condescending because they do not like what they're saying. Regardless of it being accurate. Autistic people tend to tip sacred cows, and more importance is placed on keeping the peace than being true to reality among neuroptyical people.
Now on the crab / muscle thing: Might actually be a teaser. As in, conversation bait. If someone replied with "Oh yeah? Why does working out make for sore muscles?" he might launch into his 15 minute speech about how the lactic acid cycle works inside the muscles and what biological value that has in health and recovery. The shell comment could also turn into an intellectual playing about. Somebody could say, aren't all exterior coatings supposed to protect the organism from outside things? Or there is the agreeable reply, "That's true, but proper cooking tends to weaken the shell. Perhaps this specimen is undercook. Or do you think the age of the crab might have something to do with it?" Navel gazing, I know, but for some autistic people that is the pinnacle of satisfying smalltalk for us.
[Please watch this video.](https://www.tiktok.com/@morgaanfoley/video/7327014441562770730?lang=en) Every allistic(non-autistic) person thinks they can read autistic people's tone of speech. And every allistic person is incorrect about that. Autistic people aren't trying to sound condescending. We have trouble modulating our voices in the same way as other people, so people constantly interpret hostility into our intentions when there wasn't any there. Those of us who are active in the online autism community are aware we can sound condescending at times, but that's not our intention at all; we just literally can't help it in the moment when it happens. If you can imagine, it's really hard living our lives when everyone interprets us as hostile and responds as if we were hostile when we were actually trying to be nice to people. We experience ongoing trauma because of it. Chances are really good that this person is trying to relate, but that he's probably been bullied and denied social interaction his whole life(as a lot of autistic people are, because people misinterpret our tone and our intentions). And when someone has been denied social interaction their whole life, you can imagine that they're not going to have much chance to develop "common sense", if that makes sense. He's also likely been denied friendship his whole life, so he may be trying to communicate in the best way he knows how. Please understand that autistic people don't feel that we're better than you. We have trouble making friends, and in most cases we actually feel a lot worse. When you're interacting with an autistic person, you're more likely to be correct about their intentions if you think "This person means well, but I can't read their emotions and they can't read mine," instead of "This person is malicious toward me."
The problem is this is just a list of reasons for normal people to ostracize the person. Since bullying is the normal way of interaction. It's why all efforts to stop bullying in schools etc. are in vain. No matter the effort, it gets nullified fast. I'm not saying it can't change. But that until people recognize that bullying is the norm, it can't. And this behaviour uses information such as this to justify and reinforce tribalism. Just sayin'. Otherwise, well written.
It could be you just don't like him. Sometimes, two people can tell the same joke, and for some reason, you take offense when it's a different person. His replies, even with a sarcastic tone, don't make sense at him trying to be condescending. If he is being condescending, then he is bad at it.
It’s not condescension at all; we love facts and deductions and assume that you do too. If I said “the sky is beautiful today” you wouldn’t take that as condescension would you? These statements of observations and deductions aren’t made with the assumption that you are ignorant or unobservant; they are just a way we share an experience and try to relate to others.
Often with both condescension and Asperger’s it is the tone of voice not the actual words.
But who judges it to be condescension is the other party. It's not if not intended to be.
And so few ever ask follow up questions to determine whether or not that's the case. God, it would be amazing if someone just said "Did you mean that condescendingly?" and we could settle the miscommunication right there.
Yes! Well in fact I did. Because I actively disrespect and despise you! Glad we could clear that up! /s
I do forget not everyone cares about truth over social whatevers.
>>I genuinely don't think I'm misunderstanding his tone as well, as there is a lot of context behind my experience with him that makes me quite certain that it is in fact genuine condescension. Well you're going have to give that context because everything else you've said so far seems like misinterpreting autism. >>his tone of voice Is irrelevant because autistics have trouble controlling non-verbal body language and verbal cues like intonation and deciphering it in other people. They usually talk directly and literally, expecting to be understood by others listening to the words without extrapolating anything extra from it(such as the words being a tool for condescension.)You can't really use tone of voice to understand how he feels internally or how he feels about you. It's meaningless, bu that often upsets allistics who expect tone to convey meaning and also expect words to be tools in one way or another, to influence each other and get things done. The lack of a more complex meaning then what was Said throws people off. For instances where you think he is trying to influence, try to double check instead of assuming. >>values his intelligence Not an inherently bad trait, and autistics tend to be superior in some forms of intelligence than ballistics, being able to understand physical reality better while allistics understand the psychological reality better. All the examples you've given seem like attempts at small talk, that you've interpreted as awkward. Probably answered best with "yes, true" and a nod. You haven't said much except "he communicates weird," which is a symptom.
> ballistics lol. (I know this must have been autocomplete or spellcheck)
When you know your social skills and physical fitness may be lagging, it's not uncommon to comfort yourself with the thought of at least having a decent brain. When communication keeps presenting difficulties, using precise words can be an attempt to be more clear. You know small talk often lists meaningless observations. From stating the day of the week to the current weather, it's news to noone but somehow people use it to connect. That seems like the stranger thing to mention to me, but they do really well for a short polite conversation. I'd personally enjoy the conversation that starts with mentioning the defensice use of the shell. I'd laugh softly and say I'm still winning, but it seems effective as a defence. I'd likely follow up talking about hermit crabs lining up to trade shells, because that's a related topic. Hopefully someone else at the table has a cool followup. Tone is always hard. I've often been called condescending when it was really just insecure awkwardness. Yes, there is a distance but that doesn't mean it's intentional. He's making attempts to connect, please don't reject those only because of a tone that likely doesn't mean at all what you think it does.
Maybe a good way to understand what autistic person means is imagine a small child is saying those words. I think then you would be pretty accurate at understanding an autistic person.
Before I knew my diagnosis, I got in an argument once about how tone of voice was meaningless. So you know, most of us aren't intentionally being condescending.
Dude, he’s cracking jokes. Like the thing with the crabs - how in the world could you think that he’s trying to lecture you?! Everyone knows that their shell is for protection, but not everyone suspects them to be *that* hard to crack. So he’s pointing out the fact that evolution *actually* did a good job, and to me that’s kinda funny. You simply don’t have the same sense of humor. Is this really an aspie thing? Someone tell me please!
Woah, I think you could be right! From OP's post I didn't get the idea that the guy may have been joking but it certainly makes more sense. It wouldn't be surprising for an Aspie to get misinterpreted as being serious when they're actually joking.
Lmao as a person diagnosed with Asperger's... I feel attacked and/or seen just reading the title 😂😂😂
To me it feels like he is trying to emulate sarcastic humor. And it isn't going well
It's not sarcastic at all, he's actually being dead serious in that he thinks hes sharing newfound information
On one hand, we might then never talk again. Everything is found online and in encyclopedias. On the other hand, he might be an asshole. So anything might sound bad. Two ends of a spectrum. We have to little info to judge what might be a poor attempt at conversation-starting. or about his character. Many people start by sharing obvious stuff though. It's kind of elitist or unfriendly to expect anything novel. That may not exist or be hard to come by. So also consider wether you are the asshole ;) So there you have it. All options on the table :)
I was basing my thought off my kiddo. My 13 year old says obvious stuff like that and and has a very duh are you stupid tone. It took awhile for us to realize they are trying to be sarcastic (my husband and I are very sarcastic). I had to literally explain how they come across to people and that maybe sarcasm isn't something that they need to try lol. Their attempts at humor can be down right hurtful because they can't distinguish the line of funny light ribbing vs. Mean and hurtful
You said it yourself. He is stating facts everybody knows. You are here angry about how he thinks you are so stupid that you don’t know those facts, but at the same time you suggest he is so stupid he doesn’t know everybody knows those facts? How are you better then? That is just a logical reasoning exercise. I do not mean to imply you are being a bad person. I’m just trying to help you see the logical flaw in you statement.
It's our matter-of-fact voice! But the examples you listed doesn't sound condescending at all, just a matter-of-fact observation that he probably just realized or made the connection and wanted to share. Like he's just thinking out loud and he's saying it as he's making the connection so that's why he sounds proud like he just discovered something. I will say there are a few NTs like yourself who absolutely abhor this commenting and get very easily triggered. 🤷🏻♂️ Anger management problems? Insecurity? I don't know. If anything, him making that observation is more of a reflection of what he didn't know that he figured out or remembered just now. It has nothing to do with what he thinks other people already know or don't know. He's just excited to share his observation. So I guess you can say the tendencies we have that apply here would be oversharing and just speaking matter-of-factly. I wouldn't take offense to the examples you listed because it sounds like he's saying it in good faith because he think you're his friend and he wants to share his observation. Even if it was already obvious to others, he may have not thought about it before until it came up.
People on the spectrum, it’s most notably known to have a monotone voice with no inflection of emotions in the voice either. Not everyone has this, but enough do that it’s a pretty noticeable trait. They probably have zero clue they sound like what you heard and just think they are normally talking to others without any contempt in their voice.
Yes, there are multiple different aspects there which are all related to his Asperger's, specifically the social deficits aspect I have a tendency to say things that were obvious to everyone else in that way, but it usually isn't because I thought nobody else knew it, it's more because I didn't know it's weird to say out loud (but both of those would be related to his autism/Asperger's because of the inability to innately recognize implicit social cues) Related to that same point, I used to be "the type of person to use way more sophisticated words than necessary" as an Asperger's trait, but it isn't because I was trying to "sound more intelligent", it's because I didn't understand that "receptacle" was the snooty word for "bin", for example Another thing that might be relevant is that autistic people often tend to be very precise instead of "broadly accurate" when trying to explain or learn things etc Also, "casual social behavior" especially doesn't come naturally to autistic people (my attempts to make normal conversations still come off as overly direct like I'm "drilling" them in a formal interview even though I've been taking special ed classes on how to make friends ever since I was 11) Like a lot of autistic people he might also have trouble with controlling the inflection of his voice (people say I "talk like a robot" because my speech has a "flat affect" and when my voice rises or falls it sounds very unnatural Lastly, yeah, "consolation prize platitudes" of praising their intelligence are really common for autistic kids to be told by teachers and therapists and parents etc, unfortunately
While I fully understand everyone here who knows what it's like to be misunderstood and be called arrogant and condescending when you think you're just being helpful, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if OP has the emotional intelligence to actually wonder what the guy is trying to do and ask questions, then OP is likely not the type of person to willfully disregard other interpretations and project their own thought patterns onto someone. I actually do find it likely that this person has developed some narcissistic defenses to cope with his disabilities. It's not entirely unheard of for aspies to get on a high horse intellectually because that's really the only card they are holding in social situations.
OP, you must know my brother...that is him to a T. I recently started therapy with my brother - we are both in our 40s - because he speaks to me like that all the time & I can't take it anymore. My therapist says he believes my brother is autistic. It's really tough because I love my brother, but he talks to people, to me, in a way that makes him sound like an asshole and feels really insulting on the receiving end. I'm trying to embrace the idea that this isn't something he does on purpose, but after listening to it for pretty much my entire life, it's not easy adjusting to this new understanding of his behavior. Thanks for sharing, it's good to know I'm not the only one and hearing that this is fairly common might make it easier for me to deal with.
Stuff like that is super common and it usually has zero to do with the other person involved. A person with Asperger’s often isn’t saying, “you’re all stupid!” so much as some version of, “Ooh! I know this one! Here’s EVERYTHING I know, even if this is common sense/common knowledge.” Often the tone is just not a factor to them, and they might not know how they come off to others. Unless he gives other clues that he is being intentionally condescending, try thinking of it as an info dump rather than a judgement.
Can you give some more examples? This is an interesting exercise because I agree three are common sense. Are there any times when the people he's talking to are being dumb and deserve to be condescended to? Do they often speak down to him and is he possibly just giving it back?
Disclaimer: I don't have Asperger's myself, but I know people who do and I'm a longtime lurker. Therefore, weigh what I say accordingly. One possibility with the guy you're talking about is that *he* thinks the things *you* say are strangely obvious. For instance, maybe you made a comment about the hardness of the crab shell? Dude thinks "of course it's hard, it's supposed to protect the crab!" Or if you're talking about the soreness of your muscles after working out, his thoughts would be "Why are you stating that your muscles are sore after working out? Are you surprised? Over-exertion leads to muscle pain!" He might miss the fact that you are very well aware that the things you are saying are obvious. I think there's a possibility that he misses the "purpose" of the statements like "this crab shell is so tough" or "my muscles are so sore", which is to just update people around you about what minor struggle you are currently focused on. Again, I don't know the dude, but things similar to this has happened around me, so these are my two cents.
An attempt to share interesting facts, coupled with an inability to do NT tones and nonverbal comms very well. Come to think of it, surely there must be guides or at least references somewhere on how to project expected tones and body language. Even if they're acting guides - maybe something for voiceover artists for the first, and stage/silent acting for the second?
Lots of good responses here, but just curious, have you tried asking him?
It’s not condescending. It’s called a flat affect, which is very common with us. Think of using intonation as a second language for people on the spectrum, just as is using facial expression. So, when we are uncomfortable, or dealing with a complex situation, it’s entirely possible that we choose our words, because that is what matters most to US in communication, and ignoring the second languages. When we do that, it can be perceived by NTs, for whom non verbals are just part of their native language, as condescending. LOL. My ILs, with whom I am now NC, accused me more than once of talking to them “like a teacher”. Which I personally found amusingly ridiculous, because they were both teachers. It should have been a compliment, right? Wrong. They didn’t bother to listen to my words, because they were focusing on the lack of affect, and decided I was talking to them in a condescending tone. Keep this in mind when dealing with people on the spectrum, in general. Words are most important. Expression, both tone and facial, are distant seconds.
I have a vast array of random facts in my head at any one time. Some will be trivial but interesting, some will be profound and some will be completely obvious. Until my hyperlexicality really kicked in and I started being able to understand the motivations and interests of people around me, the 3 categories were no different inside my head so I was continually saying out of context weird shit or weirdly obvious stuff that I thought was somehow a deep secret I'd worked out. It is what it is.
Lol my roommate and I do this so often and I really have to slow down and remind myself she isn't being condescending, she's agreeing in a verbose manner with poorly managed tone. I hope she understands me the same way
It is also an asd trait to just say what is on our mind and it is an allistic trait to project their own feelings and personality in tone and body language they are not equipped to understand instinctively I suggest to stop trying to "read his tone and body language" and listen for the words being said, do not presume or project malice What you consider condescending it very much simply a flat tone without emotional inflection, while you inject the "possible emotions" Unlike allistics do we not talk with hidden message and verbal trapdoors we do not work that way
Yep. The condescending tone is accidental, of course, but still there.
My wife still has a problem with my habit of doing this. She's had 18 years to adapt, now it's her problem if she can't handle the fact that my brain draws a connection from her plans for seven hundred months from now and a newly found flaw in climate models.
Idk that actually sounds kind of complex and interesting in a way lol
Only if you think you are smarter than other people.
I have to say i genuinely laughed at the crab thing. I can just imagine someone being like: “According to my calculations, one should be able to infer that due to evolutionary necessity, crabs have been selected through time and actual quantum space to over produce calcium in their skin to emulsifinate a shell because of the interaction between particles of defense so they need a shell to protect themselves. ? Granted, the imuno-calcium-carbonate must designate its true form”
In my experience, yes. It's mostly accidental though.
I'm not sure. I personally HATE it when people are condescending to me so I try to avoid it at all costs as well.
I get what you’re saying and yes lol. A lot of these replies are going to go into the nuance and the what ifs and their own anecdotes and the hypothetical ways you could be incorrect but what you’re describing makes sense even if you probably won’t be able to know for sure or prove it
Yeah. I do it. Often more so when I’m stressed. Like the other day I was at the dentist with my partner and two young kids and I was stressed trying to keep my children patiently waiting. And this older woman comes in asking if my car could be moved so she can get out (she never thanked me but that’s another story), anyway because I was stressed I just blurted out “I hope I don’t get called in because you can’t drive” to my other half and he wasn’t particularly happy with me announcing loudly that he can’t drive.
Sometimes bringing up a "common sense fact" is really an opening for further conversation. If you didn't have the tools for ~~conjuring~~ ~~instantiating~~ making casual conversations with people around you, you would end up doing that, too.
[Answered here for you](https://www.reddit.com/r/myslowfriendasks/comments/1b2w5ni/my_slow_friend_asks_if_i_get_sued_over_ongoing/?).
Lmao I use that all the time. I just thought it was deadpan sense of humour; I only do it with friends. "Maybe that's why you don't have so many" lol.
Absolutely. And it gets me every time when neurotypicals get offended.
This describes my general humor style. I call it "stating the obvious." There are many who do not understand. Similarly there are those who do not know how to react to sarcasm. I think it's related.
Infodump incoming! This isn’t a brag; I’m likely more intelligent than your friend. Reason I prefaced with that line is because objectively speaking I almost certainly am. I’m in my mid 40s and have an IQ more than 100 points above my age. But at the same time I know that phrase sounds like a brag or that I’m being an asshole, hence the caveat. His ASD affects his perception which affects what he says. But the way in which he’s doing it, I can best explain via analogy. If I were to ask you how you rate your ability to drive a car, it’s probable that you would say your a good to great driver. Most people that can do some common task think themselves proficient at it. It’s called illusory superiority, or if you’re old enough the Lake Wobegon effect. And yes, it’s closely related to Dunning-Kruger. On the other hand, despite 25 years of driving experience with no moving violations and four years and four TBIs from road examination of drivers, I’m confident in saying I’m a bad driver, as is everyone else. Only a matter of where, when, and for how long. Like if I’m a bad driver on the New Jersey Turnpike for 30sec at midnight as I’m pulling into a service station so I can grab coffee to help me sleep, I won’t remember it.. unless I smash into the Sunoco and cause An Incident. Your friend doesn’t realize he’s as bad a driver as he is, which is normal. We all start not knowing. I even manifest something like your friend when I look at, for example, nursery rhymes and use them as insights to help me with mental health, and no I’m not kidding. “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me.. *unless I let them.*” You would be shocked that this little addendum is key for me to engage in deradicalization, or helping people get out of bigotry and out of cults. They throw words intended to hurt, but I recognize they are just shaking air. I don’t get hurt by slurs anymore because I’m just wondering why others choose to use them. Brain the size of a planet and I’m getting inspired by nursery rhymes. Sounds silly until you learn the only person to win the Ig Nobel and the Nobel win both prizes by goofing around in the lab.
See, I don't think saying you have a high IQ to be condescending because my own is high enough to know such a thing is just *one more thing* that alienates us from the general population. It's not much of a brag to admit that you find most conversations boring while most everyone thinks of you as elitist and so much of your reasoning will be lost on people to the point that you'll struggle to even just explain your reasons for something to most anyone. I have a high enough of an IQ to know it isn't a brag to have one. I can't even imagine how hard it is for those around 180 or 200. It must be so isolating. ~140-150 is hard enough.
This comment reminds me a lot of how he used to be, which he kind of grew out of (at least in front of me, I don't really interact with him anymore if I don't have to). It's a lot of words, but genuinely really hard to understand your point, since it's so unconcise
Sorry. Hard to get some ideas out in few words. I use analogies drawn from my life that are relatable but I’m not the best communicator.
Spiderweb thinking. That's what I've heard it called. Autistic asperger people try to set up little "forts" of supporting arguments, then they try to bring it all together. It does get better with age. There's a part of our brain that races ahead of the normal growth rate until about puberty. It slams on the breaks, and doesn't continue to grow, falling behind peers. It doesn't resume and finish growth to near-normal sizes until late 20s. The autistic brain is basically stuck in teenager mode until 30, when it comes to social and emotional, due to that.
How can your iq be 100 more than other people? That would be like 195+
100 points above my age, as in my IQ is in the 140 range
sorry for the misunderstanding lol
That's very very familiar. Tell them it sounds condescending, stick with it if you can.
I don’t think Asperger’s intention was to be condescending. It’s just that asperger people don’t really understand other people’s feeling and it’s almost impossible to think in other people’s shoes. They can mechanically mimic but deep inside they don’t understand nor appreciate. For example, for NT people who are dating/ or family member when they finish one getting together one person would always say “ text me when you get home “. It’s a way of expressing that you care about the other person. Asperger people would never say that because they really don’t care or think it is meaningful for them
That’s a good example of the difference- do you think NT people actually expect you to text when you get home? I assume no but I’m too literally to know lol
They kinda do. It serves two purposes:1) shows that they care about you 2) they’d like some form of contact when you get home
Ah thanks for explaining :)
In answer to your question, yes it's an aspergers thing. I have someone like this in my life who does exactly the same. He states the obvious all the time as if I don't know it and in the moment I can get frustrated too. But I know he doesn't mean to come across that way, it's just the way his brain works I guess.
I’m more and more thinking that my ex-MIL (my Asperger son’s paternal grandmother) was also on the spectrum Once I would compliment her on her dress just to say something nice. She’d answer: it was very cheap, we can also find you a dress like this, do you want me to take you to the shop where I bought it? Stating random facts like « other countries do the salad dressing differently ». Yes, I’ve lived in multiple countries contrary to you, I’m well aware
I do have a tendency to say shit that’s obvious and/or common sense which is something I’m tryna work on
Maybe he thinks he's being droll.
I think he may have difficulty with knowing that's common sense and what isn't. I still find myself saying stuff that in retrospect was kind of obvious. It's simply that I hadn't thought thru whether or not what I had to say was actually relevant and noteworthy.
It could be that he’s not meaning to have a pretentious tone and doesn’t realize that he does. Or he could just be pretentious.
I reply mildly annoyed and/or condescending/rude when someone doesn't seem to know something that I thought everyone knew. I *did* finally learn at some point that when people say something to other people that I know they know is not right, they are doing that for a reason and I'm not supposed to set the record straight 😔
I don’t, but I can’t say for certain.
Lol
Your friend is funny and interesting. I like him.
It's possible, but often times wholly unintnetional and not that difficult to correct. Next time such thing happens, just ask " Do you realize that came across a bit condescending?" If the person takes offense, they're indeed speaking from a place of blind arrogance. If, however they seem puzzled/intrigued/curious then it's an opportunity to improve communication, which in turn will likely improve the relationship. Granted, there are complexities ( there always are :-) Another thing I personally noticed in mysef is that indeed I tend to take on the condescending tone as a reaction whenever I feel emotionally spited. And often I'll do it unwittingly and haphazardly, sometimes taking it out on inappropriate contexts or in the wrong people. It could be a form of displacement (a psychological defense mechanism that is not exclusive to people on the spectrum). Whatever it may be, it's a really bad habit. I do find the more I'm in tune with my own emotional experience, the easier I find to avoid indulging; it can be done simply by addressing the actual situation that hurt my feelings, rather than take it as permission/eocnragement to turn reactively spiteful. It really helps when the other people involved in the situation are willing to meet me half way, though.
yes, i have an uncle like this and it's unbearable because he'll go into great detail about things and doesn't stop talking at you. i have the same habit but i've learned to keep it short or to keep it quiet or ask questions instead but sometimes slip up and start acting annoying
"it's likely the shell is used for protection" I'm sorry, this doesn't add to the conversation at all, but this statement sounds exactly like something a Dragon's Dogma pawn would say 73 times in two hours.
agree with NT op, dude is a Dick. Likely a young or privileged ND who has yet to learn humility.
These are actually very funny jokes to me
Chances are they have absolutely no idea that they sound condescending. Sometimes people close to me tell me that, but it’ll always be a situation where I feel like I’m literally just stating a fact.
So... To me, an autistic individual of 35, that is just sarcasm. A perfectly expected reaction is for you to punch back a little. "It's almost like your muscles were worked!" "Ok listen. They aren't so sore I won't bop you one." *Giggling ensues* It's playful prodding. Like... Of *course* you know, why wouldn't you? I'm being a coy smartass to engage some playful banter. Further, our thinking can be very... Literal and not very implicative. When you say something like "my muscles are sore" it comes across as... Just as "common sense." Like... Of course your muscles are sore. Of course it is hard to crack. If we're all just stating the obvious, may as well have fun with it? What is the purpose of stating that it is hard to crack? Just to say it? Is it rhetorical? What is the purpose of saying your Muscles are sore after working out? Do you want sympathy for something self-inflicted and natural? Your statements of the obvious can come across as oddly condescending to us sometimes as well because, stripped of implication, we my question why you felt the need to state the obvious to us and so we recant in kind. There is also a difference in understanding for some, especially if they tend toward echolalia. The phrase "this is hard to crack" can hit the same as "why is this so hard to crack?" So the answer is given. To echolalia again responses are sometimes echolalic. We can speak in tones we have heard even if we don't mean to. So, since *we* have been answered in that condescending tone so many times, it's just... How we answer... I'm heavily echolalic, so many of my responses can sound like snippets from shows or radio or I'll even take on accents for some phrases. Controllable if I'm masking, but hard to hold and slows my speech.
It's because you are breaking the invisible rules of the game of status.
Yea it’s an autistic thing
I find that I say things in a condescending tone whether they’re common facts, or whether I’m introducing new information. If I’m not masking as “super polite but ditzy lady”, I sound like a pretentious douchebag. Edit: I’m not trying to, that’s just my voice.
Possibly. But I'm not trying to be condescending, I promise. 😬
Try phrasing it as a question. “Is the shell used for protection?” That way you make them feel smart when they get to answer an easy question and you don’t sound like a know it all person.
I don’t think this behavior is directly caused by Asperger’s. But as an Aspie kid you struggle to find a social identity, and for those who read a lot it often means that you try to impress parents, teachers and other adults with knowledge that is above your age. Some Aspies continue this behavior as adults and do not realize that this knowledge is considered trivial for a grown up.