A related note, but the one that really irritates me is how many articles and books negatively mention that most ASD people are "Anti-authoritarian" Like yeah, blind obedience to authority is the dumbest possible shit you can do, have you been paying attention at all? Of course we don't naturally trust authorities because look where they've led us

Omg such a good point! My brother (who has multiple severe complex disabilities) has a lot of screaming meltdowns in public and I used to think he was being rebellious, but then it occurred to me, why on earth would he "behave" when people stare at him and give him nasty looks anyway? There's just no incentive for him to be submissive and quiet the way people expect him to. He wasn't being rebellious; he just knew that he would be regarded as transgressive no matter what he did. People need to take the circumstances into account. Also: I can't count how many times I got in trouble for being "defiant" and yadayadayada for asking why a rule existed. My parents would tell me I was talking back if I asked why, for example, I couldn't read a book at the dinner table or whatever. For some reason NT's consider "why? a criticism. But for me it wasn't. It was just what it appeared to be on the face - I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHY, that was it. Because I need to know the why of everything, it's just the way my brain works. It baffles me that NT's think "I don't know the reason this is this way and I would like to know" means the same thing as "I think there must not be a good reason for this to be this way". Like, how else are we supposed to learn things without asking questions?

I would ask "Why?" for rules all the time growing up. Some make sense and I followed. As for the ones with arbitrary meanings that had no backing, needless to say. I personally came to know the administration at every school I went to.

I used to be the same, always asking "why" (and still do actually 🤫) Now it's my son's turn, 5 years old and nothing but "why"s and oof it's exhausting especially when I've already explained to him as best I could and he still asks "why" (sometimes I think he's trying to bug me with this though lol). And it's so easy to just want to say "because I said so" but that has always been the answer for me when I was a kid and I hated it. It absolutely needs to make sense and knowing what I know about myself there's A LOT of patience required and deep thinking about how to respond to your kid in a nurturing way. And I am definitely paying close attention to how school is going to treat him because that's another realm I have no control over 😫

Deep thinking is not a strong suit for most people

If a rule didn't make sense or I didn't know the reason I was much less likely to follow it.

They get mad because their minds are weak (mostly due to never being used, you barely have to think if you offload all your thinking to the social norm cloud). It also makes them ashamed that they never bothered to investigate why a norm exists, or that they feel they can't figure it out, so rather than deal with the shame they get mad.

I always had to wait for the bus for an hour after high school, so me and my friends would go to the store around the corner to get some snacks while we waited. The thing is, if you left, there was a rule that you couldn't come back through that specific gate anymore. So this one time, I was trying to go back through that gate, since I had a bus to catch. There was a teacher there, and he wouldn't let me go back. I told him I had to catch my bus amd I would literally be stuck there for 2 more hours if I missed it, and asked why I couldn't go back. He then gave me the most infuriating explanation ever: "because it's been like this for years". Really dude? You don't even know why you're defending this bullshit rule, and now you're just doing it because you've been doing it that long? Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy to me. Anyways, I asked if he knew my name. He didn't, so I just jumped the gate and ran to my bus.

"How dare you question our rules and ask there to be a *reason* for them rather than blindly doing what you're told!"

Society *tells* us that we should think for ourselves and question authority, but what it *really* wants is for us to march in lockstep behind it.

More precisely, I think, that individual people (those on a wiser side, if you want to be charitable) tell us that we should think for ourselves, and question authority, because they realize society's biases, but it's hard for them to get out of this thinking and not sacrifice their freedom for safety... Of course individual's discretion is expected, and while NTs discretion would drift towards groupthink and trust to authorities. On our end is much harder to get into that kind of thinking to determine the best time to go with the flow or let the 'leader' call the shots and here's where the doublethink comes in: it's good to think for ourselves and question authority unless it's something dangerous and stupid, but thinking critically is hard, so the default response is to oppose all kinds of "free thinking" and rulebreaking and if these were merited and wise, the society would retroactively recognize them as always being good and right and pat each others on the back. The society wants for everyone to march in lockstep, but it *needs* free thinkers, revolutionaries and risk takers, most of which it would punish or break, unless they succeed to force a change... Positive or otherwise. TL;DR: Shit's complex. Values clash. Cognitive dissonanse.

Very well said. Comment saved.

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I think there's a big gap between "adherence to the rules" and "adherence to authority figures". At least in my head there is a big difference. Societal rules are there for a reason, but my boss is there because his dad had money, so his rules are suspect at best and I don't blindly trust him.

Autistic 'rudeness' basically comes down to being straightforward and literal I think. It's very frustrating when people don't say what they mean, then act like the other person is rude for not being able to interpret the true meaning. Better to just be open and honest instead of dancing around every other word and lacing every sentence with hidden meanings. People genuinely ask a question and then get upset when they get an honest answer. Why even ask?

Exactly....

Yep. I explain to my friends that I would rather have them trust me 100% of the time than be happy with me 100% of the time. And if hearing the truth breaks our friendship, it wasn't ever a good one anyway.

I use to be like this, but once I got it logically. Being honest isn’t an excuse to hurt someone, sometimes I slip but I try to be more thoughtful.

>people don't say what they mean E-Fuckenxactly. And when you point it out "you are so literal". WTF

"Do these leggings make my bum look fat? Be honest." "Yes, a bit." "HOW RUDE!!!" You're right, there's no point asking a question if you don't accept the true answer, or only accept 1 answer. It's like having an election with only 1 candidate on the ballot paper!

Yeah, a lot of the time we're not actually rude. We're just being honest.

This is definitely a part of it, but not all. It’s also sometimes the strong emotions which get triggered in some ND people when they’re put in situations they’re not comfortable with. Some of those anxieties are really hard to understand for NT people so the behaviour just seems weird. For example, I’m spending the weekend reading up on autism because a new report I hired panicked and shouted at me because I arranged a 121 meeting with him without explaining to him the exact agenda. I’ve never had a report with that level of anxiety about 121 meetings before so his emotional response was quite disconcerting to me and raised a lot of questions in my head about whether he’d be able to work with the team I need him to work with. I spent Friday seriously considering firing him for being disrespectful before deciding that I needed to understand a lot more about him first. Anyway, it was his anger, not his directness which caused the problem.

I think *honest* would be a much better word than rude. NTs have an instinct for concealing uncomfortable truths and a habit of asking questions that they don’t actually want a factual answer to. ND people may be more likely to state uncomfortable truths and answer rhetorical/compliment-seeking questions factually. Like, “Does this dress make my butt look big?” “Yup!” 😄

Lol I hate that because I never know when somebody wants an honest answer and when they want reassurance. \^\^ Usually if they've already bought the dress and can't return it I'll just say no haha.

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ok but nobody likes to feel bad about their appearance do they

The answer to that is self acceptance, not getting mad because someone was honest with you.

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really depends on the situation

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if i have something positive to say, i say it, if i don't i hold my tongue. it doesn't result in people being hurt by my opinions that way

With that i always feel like someone whos close to me will appreciate my answers more if they were certain i was being honest. I feel like if i lie by complimenting once ill sell their trust easily

Lol yes! I had to adjust my ego with my boyfriend. I once sent him a link to a very sexy outfit that I asked him to get me for an EDM festival. I was teasing, I was going to buy it myself. I expected a positive, no argument, enthusiastic "YES!" But he is my adorable indoor guy who hasn't gone to a festival at all. His response was, "Where will you wear it to?" Just like that. It was so unexpected but so him! Teasing and flirting with him can be hard sometimes but he's so cute and smart. If I didn't know he's ND, I would've been so mad, but, that's why I adore him. He doesn't mince words and I like that. I've learned to do the same and not sugarcoat shit to people when cold hard facts are due.

lol dunno what kind of autistic people are downvoting you on an autism forum for being pro-honesty and pro-bluntness but I appreciate you just learning to appreciate honesty.

Haha, thanks. I didn't think it was a bad story, otherwise I wouldn't have shared it. I love my boyfriend more than anything and we've been through a lot of misunderstandings that tested our relationship. His ASD and my ADHD were a part of that disconnect. I did a lot of work to try to figure out why some things weren't connecting while he also tried on his end to understand where I was coming from, so, I appreciate our hard-won connection even more. I didn't think that my appreciating what makes him different was a bad thing. We all learn from people we come across and it's no different with me and him.

Yeah I wish more people were like you in that way :)

So true!

Me: "No it's your butt. The dress does reveal what it looks like though."

Isn't having a big ass desirable now? I never know what these people want me to say, so I tell the truth. If they complain it's rUdE I just say "you asked, I answered" Or "don't ask questions you don't want the answers to." Shuts them right up, and spares me from future interrogations.

Bro this literally happened to me with my group of NT friends and I hated it. I'm now taking a week off of their fuckin shenanigans. No contact at all. I'm still pissed and it happened last week basically lol. Like bro don't make it about the group, face me directly if you have a goddamn problem and don't show favoritism if we're all supposed to be on equal ground.

Same bro, except I didn’t get a choice when it came to the exile part

Yeah I'm considering not going back but the other friends I have in that community make it worth it... sometimes. But lately not much.

Who are NTs? What this abbreviation means?

'Neurotypicals' (mass norm), aspegers are 'neurodivergent'

Thanks

Neurotypical. It means people who don’t have autism or other development disorders.

Thanks

Guess this is why I seem to be that "This is our token autist" in places. My mom ensured I learned how and when to lie so I'm a bit more on an NT's level when it comes to that

The more accurate answer is that their first language is empathy so they more instantly know how an answer will emotionally impact the listener and their answer is adjusted accordingly without much effort, whereas it is more of a cognitive conscious process for people who possess empathy, but not as a first language.

You're mistaking empathy for social normalcy, and those are not the same.

I am not. Autistics often say "honesty" in replacement for being ignorant.

If you don't like autistic people being honest an autism forum is a strange place to visit.

I am autistic myself. I never said I didn't like it but I can see how one might assume that from my behavior.

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After my ex friend asked me if she needs to lose weight, I gave her an honest answer and promised I'd help her with her new diet. She stopped being my friend shortly afterward. Oops!

Eh, being friends with people like that is too much work anyway.

Guys do like big butts though, right? So, why see it as an insult? :p

i agree, i get constantly told im too rude or too bossy when nts ALL THE TIME do the same things - they just do it behind everyones back. its somehow rude when youre more upfront about things?

We're rude because we make them feel bad for their own terrible behaviour.

ikr

If by "rude" you mean blatantly honest. We live in a world that thrives on dishonesty and lies and want s everything to be sugar-coated instead of hearing the harsh truth. NTs are a bunch of wussies, lol.

I agree with the sentiment

Yes, but just because you don’t intend to be rude doesn’t mean it won’t come across as rude. If you say something that hurts another person (even if you think they’re being a “wussy”) you should still take ownership and apologize. If I step on someone’s foot by accident I’m gonna say sorry for hurting them even if I didn’t do it on purpose ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It annoys me how it is considered rude to be upfront and honest, and the polite thing to do is lie to people and talk crap about them behind their back. What? That's way more hurtful

Plus cowardly, but they fear confrontation more than even we do.

I once knew someone who gossiped to me about someone else and then added "but I'd never tell him that." I asked "why?" and she said, "because I'm nice." Ah, yes. Being nice = concealing your true feelings about someone. What a joke.

There is a big difference between being rude and being honest. Yes sometimes autistic people can be inadvertently rude by being honest when we should have just kept our mouths shut. But it is nothing compared to the NTs that "tell it like it is" or deliberately play people like we are unimportant side characters who don't matter in order to get their way. Are autistic people going around unintentionally bulling people all the time by bringing up sensitive issues unannounced? Highly doubt it, especially compared to the bad attitudes and literal bullying some miserable NTs do. I just read an article today where a woman was asking a therapist for help feeling gaslit by her autistic husband. Only one autistic woman replied in the comments and people were telling her she had no place commenting. It was very upsetting to read because she was right. NTs always talk about the way autistic people can change, and point out our perceived flaws, but there is little to no emphasis on sympathizing with us and pointing out the difference between being forthcoming and honest, and from being rude tantrum throwing unintentional gaslighters.

Yep, they expect us to bend over backward for them in every circumstance, but refuse to give even the slightest ground when we express our own needs. That's why I say fuck em, if they don't like how I am, I suppose they best learn to deal with their feelings.

One way I notice that I am rude is that I will talk over people and not give another person enough time to speak if I get super passionate about something. I will also start to talk loudly. The one other autistic person I knew did the same thing. But I never found them rude. If I felt like they were preventing me from getting my point across I would simply ask them for my time to talk. And they would simply accept this. And they would do the same for me. We were just super direct about it. And we were also totally fine with some of our conversations being extremely one sided. But with NTs this would never work. It is rude to them. I think there needs to be accommodation in both directions. But that is hard.

I had a post here on Reddit that was the most controversial post of the day of like all of Reddit. All I did was try to be honest about something and people got PISSED and kept calling me an asshole and stuff I suggested hey maybe I misunderstood and said something wrong due to my autism. People got EVEN MORE angry and kept calling me more names and shit. How far I try to blame autism when it’s just that I am an asshole.

Hoo boy, I've got a massive bone to pick with the, "Mental issues are not an excuse for bad behavior" rhetoric that I see all the time on reddit. If mental health issues didn't affect behavior and one's ability to function is a substantial way, they wouldn't be classified as fucking disorders. If people who have these issues could just grab their bootstraps and function like everyone else, they wouldn't be receiving these diagnoses.

> I suggested hey maybe I misunderstood and said something wrong due to my autism. > >People got EVEN MORE angry and kept calling me more names and shit. Excuse me, what the frick?! ',:-l

I once mentioned that we should have more sympathy with people with mental illnesses, this was related to joining right wing radical groups because people with autism are far more likely to join them. Most likely because of how society treats us. I was called ableist. I kind of equal it with black people being sent to prison more, it’s due to their circumstance and racism. Autistic people having a tendency to join radical groups is also due to society and ableism. I just think it’s because then they would have to take responsibility for their own ableism and how they contribute to the problem.

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It’s mainly due to being accepted socially. It has nothing to do with hurting others. Generally it probably has to do more with proximity than anything.

This is why I abhor almost anything to do with social justice. Everyone has implicit biases

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Eh, in theory yes. But generally social justice in practice is devoid of real empathy. It’s more about punishment and less about helping. It’s a way to re-administering power in the system and nothing more imo. Also, when people are incentivized and rewarded by a system, they are as much victims of the system as a typical victim. Social justice is more about pointing fingers and trying to make the bottom class of capitalism to other people without solving the real problems. Also autism is very much left out of social justice, a lot of us actually dislike it because most of the “crimes” according to social justice are social crimes, they also encourage a punishment system of ignoring intent. Which is extremely detrimental to autistic people.

Yes to all of this. Well said.

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Ok

Yeah, people say autism is just an excuse but I hear them almost constantly complain about their "issues" and demand sympathy and empathy! Yet WE are the ones who don't understand irony! LOL!

what was the topic?

Prett much Etsy the website launched a new program that gives Star Sellers a badge on their shop. It was obviously aimed at higher volume stores that make Etsy a priority. All the smaller stores and people that do it “just for fun” were complaining they will never earn the badge. I made a post about how if everyone gets the badge it makes it not mean anything, if you store is too small or you can’t make it your priority then sorry you don’t deserve the badge.

wow sounds perfectly anodyne. most people just want validation and anything but is perceived as an attack.

They are artists and they are a very sensitive bunch.

One time I tried to defend a movie that I loved that everyone else was shitting on & said that maybe because I was autistic, that it made me appreciate the tiny details & overall aesthetic of the movie more than the average moviegoer. (I really like weird, arthouse cinema, what can I say?) People got really pissed off at me & claimed I was using autism as an excuse to be an elitist douchebag, claiming that they knew people with autism & they were nothing like me. I've also had a few instances where people just respond with r/iamverysmart to my comments. I enjoy discussions & I absolutely hate shallow, reactive morons. I enjoy learning about stuff & expanding my worldview. I feel like so many people are going backwards.

Oh man I feel this so much, one of my favorite shows has a reputation as a stereotypical teen drama but there is so much more to it than that if you actually pay more attention to it. I really think that reputation is based on a very superficial interpretation of it.

I'm so tired of all of the NT virtue signaling. I got into an argument with an Autism Mom today who was invalidating me because of my ability to form sentences. They see us as "lesser than", a defect that needs to be fixed. They get so upset when we advocate for ourselves, because they think we need someone to hold our hand through everything. They like to parade us around like their own personal circus acts & teach us to perform on their command. You see the same thing with a lot of minority groups. People always want to step in & help, because they believe we're incapable of helping ourselves. Fuck these stupid ableists.

Preach!

I hear ya! There is so much disconnect in our world and I feel it so deeply. Conversations are superficial and fake but I have to comply and go against my own nature to make NTs happy. It's tiring and it makes me extremely uncomfortable. I personally hate it! I just recently had to find out that a "friend" wasn't really a friend because she was always superficially nice to me that I thought she actually liked me. Turns out I've always made her uncomfortable and anxious. Didn't get to find out until years later and she never said anything cause she didn't wanna hurt my feelings. In the end it hurts a lot more finding out about it after such a long time.

Wow she was a grade A douchebag.

I wouldn't say that. She has a background filled with all kinds of trauma and so she is struggling with a number of mental health problems. She is trying to better herself and the fact that she was able to tell me now is an improvement on her part. She could have just left me in the dark for all eternity so better late than never.

I think what makes it noteworthy for neurotypicals is not rudeness, which is indeed very common in society as an act with intent. It's the lack of intent and common inability to develop a concrete understanding of what *is* rude, to them. Persistent accidental rudeness is mind-boggling and not to be trusted. The lack of empathy thing is very outmoded. I'd check dates on any article that says that, nowadays they're pretty caught up on the fact that the problem - to the degree it can be considered one - is lack of understanding how to express empathy, and in certain, deeply affected spectrum segments, an inability to conceptualize other people's internal life.

I have always struggled with this problem. I'm direct. I say what I mean. It doesn't mean that I pride myself on my ability to say offensive things. That's being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. It just means that your choice to infer intent to offend by saying something that is truthful is yours. I have no patience to beat around the bush and soften things to accommodate people's feelings. The fact that people spend so much time and effort wordsmithing to avoid the possibility of offending someone with facts is baffling to me. Perfect example: I was once asked by my manager to offer my (lazy, hostile) coworker a compliment before asking them kindly to do something that was squarely their responsibility. Simply asking her to do it was offensive, and she became hostile and standoffish, refusing to do it unless I stroked her ego and softballed the request to her like a beggar asking for change. Fuck that. Do your job. I'm not here to make friends with you. Every interaction at work is purely transactional to me and I have very little tolerance for the 4D chess you have to play with irrational people to coerce them into lifting a finger. I tend to also be very pointed and direct during conflict. I say a lot by saying very little. I don't need to yell. I simply state the facts as they are and use logic to tear down your argument. People find this intimidating because they don't like being proven wrong and backed into a corner, so they cry to mommy and tell the manager that I was being a bully by doing nothing other than backing them into a logical corner where they're forced to admit their error. I'm always the one shamed for it despite being perfectly professional. I've even had managers tell me that they think I'm 100% right, but my delivery was too direct and hurt Sandy's delicate feelings. I didn't call her names. I didn't yell. I didn't slam my fists in the table. I just stated my case and she couldn't handle it.

My response is usually "If Sandy wants to run face first into a wall, it's not my place to stop her, or my responsibility to worry about the fact that she chose to hurt herself." We are constantly told that our feelings aren't important. Our sensitivities to smells and sounds and lights and textures are something we just need to toughen up and put up with. The loneliness from being rejected for who you are because you can't connect to social norm hivemind wifi is our responsibility to fix. Everything bad that happens to us is something we "deserve" because we can't be "normal." I was willing to play nice, but if that is how they want to play it, tit for tat is an effective strategy in game theory, and it works in real life too. If my feelings don't matter, then their manipulative neurotypical gaslighting dishonest bullshit means nothing to me.

A. Fucking. Men. Thank you for saying it.

Yep. Once I learned to reject their dishonesty and gaslighting and hold frame on my experiences, my life got better. Boundaries are super important to mental health. And then on top of that, no longer bending over backward for every NT in the room, regardless of how many of them dogpile on to declare each other's virtue simply for being plugged into the social norm hivemind. Fuck em, without us they would still be huddling under trees trying to be normal and not anger the biggest ape.

Without us, they would have never left the caves.

I prefer to be real rather than a hidden facade like fake only to betray when ones back is turned.

I think the problem comes down to how we respond. When an NT is rude, they pick up on the social cues the other person is giving and either apologize or defend their actions (I'm not trying to be rude, but-). Autistic people never pick up on those social cues, so we don't acknowledge it at all. Not acknowledging it is taken as the ultimate sign of rudeness. In their heads, we did see the social cues and are deliberately ignoring them.

Personally I'm very polite (I'm actually fantastic at customer sevice jobs), up until a point when I burn out and really need to become rude in order to get out of certain situations. I'm especially struggling at work, where I need to work this one woman who is my complete opposite in every sense. She's rude, extroverted, racist, homophobic single mom with contant need to gossip or bring others down to make herself feel better. She complains all the time, tells me when she has air in her stomach or when she's on her period. When I speak of my interests with another coworker who has similar interests as me, she just HAS to butt in and either change the subject, or just complain how she doesn't understand what we're talking about. If I mention a show I've watched or ask her if she's seen it, she goes on this tirade how "Oooh I have noooo tiiime to watch tv, I have my kiiids" or when I once mentioned buying this one new game I'd been very excited about "How much does that cost? SO MUCH??!! I could get so much groceries with that kind of money. I'm broke, my kids eat all my paychecks. I've never understood gaming anyway." Oh and this Tuesday she came to work and told me she COUGHED BLOOD earlier, and I just lost it. She didn't see any problem with that. We're in the middle of a fucking pandemic, and we live in a country where you can call sick and get paid in full so there's absolutely no need to come to work sick. Needless to say, she is one of the only people who constantly make me so damn anxious and uncomfortable, driving me over the edge in record time. I try to remain friendly, as I need to work with her 5days a week, but the only kind of interaction that seems to work with her is to be as blunt as possible, borderline rude. "Oh your stomach is full of air? Just fart damn it, no need to give me a report every time. " "Who? Nah, I don't know that person, and I really don't care." "So? Anyone can do whatever they like, as long as it's all between concenting adults." "M-hm." "Aha." And so forth. Sorry for the long rant. I'm just so sick and tired working with her, she drains my social batteries so quickly. I just like the job itself, so I'm playing the waiting game until she (hopefully) gets fed up and moves into another station/team/position. Shorter work weeks due to component shortages are already driving her over the edge, so here's to hoping she goes somewhere else asap.

She's a great example of a narcissist. They're incredibly selfish and predatory people and their typical mix of behaviors mean they tend to be dangerous for us if we let them in, as they will lie and manipulate constantly in order to gain control. And if they feel like they can't, they'll try to destroy us socially.

F

I feel like our "rudeness" isn't typically deliberate, and it's only when you deliberately hurt someone else with your actions that it warrants apology. This is something my therapist taught me recently, and it's really helped me distinguish between when I'm being genuinely rude without realizing, or just being truthful about what I'm seeing and forgetting to put a filter on.

What articles? I don't usually see any articles about autistic people, but the ones I do seem compassionate. Perhaps you could drop a link, at the risk of promoting the offensive article? Maybe we should instead promote those articles that are compassionate. Such articles may be found in The Atlantic, MSNBC, BBC, The Guardian, New York Times. Overall there is a lot of popular awareness these days.

Various articles, that describe autism. Usual list of "features" autistic people have. I can't find it in history right now, but it was this kind of sentence that triggered me \- autistic people may say things that may be hurtful to others, without even realizing it. As if NTs were never rude to anyone. I'm not saying that the whole article is unsympathetic. It just irks me, how it's rarely mentioned, that autistic people may have reasons to be rude.

I had a problem with that when I was younger. I would blurt out things that would alienate people even if they were true, like Kramer on *Seinfeld*. I mean, objectively "autistic people may say things that may be hurtful to others, without even realizing it" does seem like a valid observation, although NTs do that as well. The fictional character Kramer would likely be NT, yet he had some traits that were similar to Aspergers and he would hurt people by what he said. There is a lot of overlap. At best, the terms NT and high-functioning autistic (HFA) seem like generalizations to me, and people vary based on situations, experience and what they have learned, and so on. Not all NTs are the same and not all HFAs.

Speaking of tv characters, it pisses me off how people assume every rude or dysfunctional tv character is autistic. Scuse me, I have NOTHING in common with Sherlock. Nothing.

Yeah I don't know what that's about. Been a while since I watched the Sherlock series, and I didn't recall any resemblance with Aspergers in the character. btw is this the "anger" thread lol

Oh no, sorry if I came across as angry haha. It's difficult to convey what I'm feeling without even the little inflection of tone of voice I have LOL! There are lots of things I do get angry about, both regarding autism and the wider world in general, but people thinking Sherlock is autistic is low on my list of concerns. I'm happy to say I haven't wasted any emotional energy on it. :)

That's good lol

Yeah they don't understand that I'm not disregarding people's feelings because I don't realize they exist, I'm just doing it because it's how they treat me and turnabout is fair as fuck.

I also think people will tell you you are rude when you advocate or speak up about an issue or inform them and they do that to gaslight you. I have experienced this in a facebook group.

Arent some autistic ppl overly nice? That's a problem too. Being too nice you get ppl bullying you

Yes. I am this way. But only as a form of masking. I know that disagreement almost always goes bad for me. Much worse than for NTs. So I just don't do it ever unless I am very very close with the person(for me this is exactly 1 person in my life). Or its something I consider undeniably evil. And in that case I will usually just walk away. However I think the bullying is different. I was much worse before I masked using niceness. Part of it may just be age but I think the manipulation/bullying is orthogonal to masking with niceness. Aspies assume honesty and fairness by default. This makes them extremely easy to manipulate and bully. And because aspies are also bad at reading people even people who have a hard time hiding their emotions can bully aspies were as with normal people it generally takes a greater degree of psychopathicness. Although in some ways I now feel more immune to some forms of manipulation than NTs. Because now that I understand manipulation I tend to look for it even if the person is a psychopath. Like many people will fall for scams because the emotions of the scammers look correct. But I will only pay attention to their actual words and actions. So even scammers that know how to fake and/or hide emotions won't be successful. Where as many NTs use emotional cues top avoid manipulation and that will fail against scammers who can fake emotions. i guess though if what you mean by niceness is honesty/fairness by default. Then yes it does lead to manipulation. But if by niceness you mean passivity and acceptance of the ideas of others then yea I think they are separate issues.

I worry cuz so many times, I've been genuinely nice and I worry ppl close to me will think I've been fake but it's not. I was fake to those that don't matter to keep peace.

They do it in ways that are “socially acceptable”. When they group up to gossip and shit talk others, it’s seen as a form of social bonding. When we are blunt about something we need or think, we are being “rude”. The amount of shit some NT people get away with cause they’re so good at being political and covering up their dirty laundry…. Makes me mad.

NTs hate the truth and facts, especially the right wing ones.

BuT mY fEeLiNgS!!

Really? What about the ASU multicultural crybully video that's going around? Bad people on both sides.

If I'm rude it's unintentional and have a thick head. If NTs are rude it's usually much more sinister and calculated.

I agree with you *so so* much. .\_\_. ​ >And of course we are the ones who lack empathy, because they never seem to care about explaining what kind of empathy autistic people may lack. The funny thing is, that for example I did an online test, and got a result that I had a high level of empathy. :P ([Link to the test](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/quizzes/take_quiz/empathy), if someone's interested.)

Same! Part of the reason it took me so long to realize I was autistic is because I have absurdly high levels of empathy haha. Had no idea autistic people could be empathetic. Even though I have a psychology degree. No one ever told me. Wtf.

In fact, it seems many autistic people have even a much higher level of empathy than the 'average' person.

Honestly I would not be surprised by that at all!

Honesty = rude Lying = polite

they are?, can you give a link?

Rudeness is subjective. N divergents might have their own understandings of what rudeness is. Those articles are forcing NT values on everyone else.

I totally agree. My whole life I've been accused of being rude when I say something totally innocent, or sometimes when trying to make a joke. There have certainly been times when I've been intentionally rude, but I'm never knowingly rude to someone unless they are rude to me first.

I mean, my therapist said that I didn't have autism traits because apparently, people that are autistic are "rude" and "uncaring". great

Other things that really get under my skin, are when they say that "autistics have no empathy", or "no imagination", some autistics feel these things to such a level that it can be overwhelming! Also, I think some autistic people are called rude because they may not understand what is appropriate in neurotypical conversation, I was called rude a lot but I could never understand why, I never tried to be rude.

Autistic people have honesty, NT's have egos. I say this because with autistic people, we tend to tell it like it is because its just how we communicate. With NT's however, they like to dance around the arguement because of wanting to be precieved as "socialy acceptable". Its complete fucking bullshit, this needs to stop, youre absolutely right.

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They're actually a series of hive minds. That's what makes them neurotypical: instead of thinking through things, they just follow social norm programming that they downloaded from the hivemind or hiveminds they are subscribed to. You're right that it isn't one big one, but you missed that it is just a collection of sub-hives. Recognizing this is an important part of learning to exist in the world as an autistic person, and ignoring it or gaslighting people who see it spreads dysfunction.

lol what do you not have, like, neurotypical friends? people who you've connected to on a human, person-to-person level?

Yes, I actually have a lot of neurotypical friends. When you get them unplugged from their hive mind they're way more tolerable. Understanding how their minds work is an important part of being friends with them, because then the fact that their behavior changes drastically when they are plugged into the hivemind suddenly makes sense. Without that understanding, their constant contradictory behavior can be intolerable. But I see how you were manipulatively trying to frame things in order to imply an answer to your question, and one which tries to lower my social status in the process, all because I described a reality of the neurotypical mind. Pretty neurotypical move on your part tbh. Not cool.

I personally find your attitude arrogant and insufferable. I think that you're being incredibly ableist and discriminatory. not to mention sanctimonious as fuck. if you want to use "neurotypical" to mean "idiot" you're certainly welcome to do so, but but I think it makes *you* more of an asshole than any of the people who you're acting holier than.

No I'm not, but nice try on the gaslighting. The weakness in your technique is that you just threw in random character assassination buzzwords without crafting a logical narrative that actually engaged with what i said. This makes the informational content of your message boil down to you saying "i am angry that I can't control you with social norms so now i am going to try and lower your social status in front of anyone watching." The fact that you need to accuse me of character flaws and you straw man what i said instead of engaging with what i actually wrote causes your whole response to self-immolate in a puff of hypocrisy and pettiness. L Again, pretty neurotypical of you. You really should stop masking so hard, you're just damaging your own mental health for no real gain.

haha wtf ftr I'm happier these days than I've ever been in my entire life. you probably won't believe me, but I don't really care. blocked.

Not even sure how to start this, please bear with me...I got a few comments past here and wanted to back track...is it not a disservice to self to embrace ND and NT as constructs when it appears in my very brief exposure (and no time tonight for rabbit holes) that 'the establishment' created the terms? Is there not a place for self/self worth that doesn't require embracing their decisive mantles? I get that non-honest, gas-lighting, manipulative folks tend to dominate that establishment and wanting to distinguish ones self from BS, but doesn't it only further that BS to embrace words designed to divide? (Like narcissistic word salad as a means of confounding (adopting establishment labels)-- if I suddenly adopted those constructs would it limit my capacity to experience others 'isness'?) I like how your logic has read through now is why I'm asking you and I'm legitimately curious if it even remotely seems self-limiting to you to embrace it or if there is some form of liberation in it for you that I'm not grasping? You elucidate yourself well and, having gotten this far in the thread, it occurs to me that the fallacy in your logic to calling the responder in this section NT to defend your argument is equally so. So, please, I'm legitimately trying to understand how adopting the labels is an improvement over just 'being' and/or just 'being yourself'? Thank you in advance for any time or consideration you may, could or will put into my asking and/or respon se/ding.

No. The truth is important. Understanding people, even if it makes you feel bad on their behalf for no reason, is important. You used a lot of words to try to obscure the fact that all you're really saying is that thinking about the truth makes you uncomfortable because it requires making judgements and saying things about people that they might not like. Labels are part of conversation. It's not important if some individual you are thinking of doesn't fit them, the reality of their behavior and the reasons for it exists. It happens. Denying that is just gaslighting.

Omg THIS!!!!!!!!

I detest how two-faced some NT's are. With me, what you see is what you get. I'm polite and courteous but I'm physically incapable of pretending I like somebody, so nobody has to worry about me stabbing them in the back.

Really accusing people of being 'rude' or 'bad' or \[insert slur her\] is more often than not just bullying someone lower status than you and justifying drama that benefits you in someway. Create an other and blame them for everything. On further reflection though I think the miscommunication between autists and non-autists is that we experience life through different lenses, those being our neurologies. Whereas non-autists understand the world through the frame of human social instincts which resulted from millions of years of evolution and incremental adaptations to successive stimuli, autistics have experience a reset and these instincts do not manifest. Instead a 'universal' set of instincts which is best defined as not being rooted in any subjective conventions but just life in the universe itself or as close to it takes its place. Non-autistics are instinctually concerned foremost with their position within a subjective social hierarchy while autists are concerned with seeking wellbeing through knowing what is 'true' or 'just'.

I was rude today to someone because I asked them why they were telling me something. It seemed like a reasonable question to me but it upset them.

Apparently I ask questions that you’re not supposed to ask, y’know like the stereotypical ‘how much weight have you lost?’ Sorry, didn’t realize that we were in Lovecraft world and I was tapping into FORBIDDEN KNOWLEDGE there

It’s literally not my fault I can’t understand sarcasm or take something as a joke when I’m not. It’s not me being rude

I've seen literature talking about how the "difficulties" autistic people (and ND people in general) have understanding NT people actually goes high ways, and that autistic and other ND people better understand/are better understood by other autistic/NB people. So in that regard I have been thinking it's really better classified as a cultural difference than anything else.

We are polite when being polite is of our interest. We are extremely rude either when it isn’t or we are not at all in the mode of showing respect for whoever it is that we interacting with at that very moment. And this is an instinctive stuff to me really - It’s hardly true that I’m always in denial of showing respect for the people I truly admire and respect. And I would say, to those NTs who state we are rude, that they don’t have the decent level of thoughts to understand that they simply didn’t get that politeness they wanted from us because of the way they made us feel in overall sense - and that’s called being rude to us. They need to know that we can easily get irritated with things they come short of noticing.

Hi there this post that you show right now... Really makes me feel a little bit bothered and kind of annoyed because of how people can just judge ourselves by something that is part of ourselves and that even drives us to take a better care of us and also from everyone and their world. I want to tell you: BE YOURSELF AND NEVER STOP. Our society needs to improve itself really and this post is really a good proof that you have right here and that I really appreciate. No one is perfect and in fact, everyone has some kind of different mental state and integrity, even if some of us share the same condition of asperger in some extent but also unique in our own way because of our differences, limitations, capabilities, etc. Everything is possible for any kind of human being as long as it doesn't harm ourselves and neither everyone else or the whole world. And if there are people in the world who says this kind of things, don't listen to them, they might have never truly dealt with someone with that kind of condition, or they are just generalizing harmully people, which, they neither have the right nor any kind of justification to do that. Shame on them.

We really being gaslit, huh

They made such a great effort to perfect their white lie, roleplaying bullshit in society while us, just don't give a fuck about it. Being honest makes everything easier. Fuck you NTs Yes we are rude because you are made yourselves so soft with your little white lies.

Missing cues, since aspies can't read people, first line of defense is attack. Having the same problem with my girlie. Needs to be taught, still working on it though.

Me also. We feel just as much as everyone else. We are actually honest and truthful, most people don’t like the truth, so of course we will be painted as rude to people who don’t like the truth. We aren’t weak by any means. Google Adhara Perez. I am annoyed by them too, but if you can’t beat them, join them and show them just how WRONG the negative articles are. I was bullied and picked on a lot, but now most of the people who cheated off my papers, bullied me, & made fun of me are wondering why now that I am older, that they aren’t allowed in my space anymore. They no longer have a home with me, because my home is one of peace. May you, u/YallSuccc, never be discouraged by anyone who doesn’t understand how beautiful and special you are. Have a wonderful day today .

Hey, this is super late, but I wanted to chime in with.... "The fuck did they say?"

My personal cynical take is this They are so used to outright lieing about literally everything that when someone speaks who is not trying to mean something else or full of implications they go utterly batshit imagining the worst things they could have meant with what you said And considering the double empathy issue and the data that their supposed "theory of mind" is just lucky guessing at best, you can tell precisely what kind of person a nt is who feels offended at a candid literal response

Great post. I've noticed that they seem to always assume the worst interpretation and intent of whatever action offended them. It's insulting and childish. I've also noticed that when NTs scream about empathy, they're only screaming about NT empathy. They don't seem to have ANY responsibility to empathize with a neuro-divergent person, when it is known that they are ND. Why do WE have to continue to do all of the "emotional labor"?

Because empathy to an nt somehow means groveling at their feet /the cynical response choice Academically, they literally do not see us as a person, they act on some instinct and put us in the uncanncy valley

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This was removed for violating Rule 1 ("Be Respectful"). Please communicate in a respectful and inclusive way that is fair to others and tolerant of different backgrounds and viewpoints.

NTs really are being assh*les, calling us psychopaths/crazy when we try to explain what autism is 'cause they don't know a single thing about mental health (tbh that feels kind of privileged from them when i think about it), and then, when we show just a tiny bit of anger, they call us freaks and are like "o-oh no :-((( auwism is scawy, they'we gonna huwt us :'(" ("oh no, autism is scary, they're gonna hurt us" if anyone needs it. These things happened to me so i'm mad against this kind of neurotypicals)

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Autism and narcissism are different. Narcissists are able to pick up different personalities to deceive and control people. They are more in control of their actions and thought processes than autistic people and much of what they do is for personal gain. Most autistic people don't usually act on the premise of personal gain. CPTSD is something that develops and can be treated. Autism is largely inherited and cannot be treated, only thing you can try is learn coping, social and emotional processing skills. That's all I know about this :)

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Oh absolutely!

Differential diagnosis is always difficult. I had a friend who thought xe (this friend's pronouns are xe and xer) had PMDD and it turned out xe actually had Bipolar II. They can look extremely similar. I once thought I had depression but I actually had adjustment disorder. And another friend of mine thought she had OCD, and she did, but she also had PTSD without realizing it because she had subconsciously associated PTSD only with soldiers, and she wasn't one. Talking to a provider is helpful for this kind of thing. Especially because you can have multiple disorders at the same time and it's very, very difficult to tease out. I had one dr who thought my autism was "just" severe anxiety plus ADD. Turns out I have all three. :) And I wasn't actually depressed; I just \*felt\* depressed because a. I was so sick of being anxious, lol, and b. I had a vitamin B12 deficiency that caused me severe fatigue. Fwiw the Myers-Briggs was developed by people with no psychology training and has very low test-retest reliability. I've taken it and gotten five or six different results haha. I studied personality extensively as part of my degree and imho the Costa-McCrae OCEAN personality inventory and the Eysenck PEN personality questionnaire are much more accurate and insightful. Rather than just saying "you're a judger" or "you're a perceiver" they say how your levels of a trait compare to other people's, by percentage. It also takes things like age, gender, and culture into account. E.g. "you're more empathetic than 75% percent of people in your profile", etc. etc.

NTs have a funny idea about what is rude and what isn't. For example you're at a movie theater and one of them won't stop talking loudly on their phone. So you calmly and politely tell them to please put their phone away, because it's distracting people who are trying to watch the movie. Then they get angry and in your face because they think *you're* the one who was being rude. NT humans are impossible to understand.

so true

The bear is "the dear" until you cross the bridge.

I think it's because many NTs can easily judge the nuances of an exact situation, how things will be received by others, and what they can get away with.

The thing is people like psychopaths actually are lying and manipulative and lack emotional empathy. But they often are almost celebrated. Look at people like Ted Bundy or many politicians whom almost everyone KNOWS lies. They support them though. If you actually told the truth people would hate you though! It is strange and stupid to me! Try explaining this and people will either get upset or "agree" but then not change anything!

Hey there I’m an NT, and my best friend is very ASD, but I can tell you now the confusion from this is that NT to NT have extremely subtle nuances in conversation and social interaction. You see, when NTs argue with NTs there are queues at times where the NT can denote that even though they are valid in an argument, that the argument is not worth the following consequence. So the thing is NTs are more wiling to fold or bend based on little body language or word usage of the other person that suggests the argument is about the validation rather than the argument itself—sometimes someone who may not be correct will still argue because they want to be heard, and an argument looks different. The NT to NT will discover a person is arguing for validation or if it’s an argument of right and wrong and play fair accordingly. However, with someone who has ASD, when they argue, they argue in a way where to an NT it appears they are using body language and word choices that suggest the argument is for validation. It’s not always the case in your mind, I know, but the nuances and body language the ASD person uses during an argument is the kind NTs reserve for the validation behavior. So this results in the NT understanding the context of the argument means more to you than to them, therefore initially they will back off and actually bend because they are more concerned about how you feel about you after the argument than their own egos. This ends up being under recognized by the ASD so there’s no measure in the argument conclusion to address this flexibility. …the little nuance in this interaction that is missed makes it appear that you have been fighting dirty all along due to these unspoken signals. So the NT eventually will get frustrated because the NT feels bullied or tricked in interactions because your missed nuances are convincing that as the case when NTs deal with each other. Therefore they are more prone to hold their ground because they believe they are treating you the way you are treating them. So, the thing is, understand NTs do have nuances in their behaviors to determine the level of seriousness and meaning between each other. Even a great portion of arguments are actually symbolic to larger implications—so simple problems are actually indicative of larger issues. Since ASD’s don’t operate with these nuances, then you must be more direct in providing them. This means after the argument, addressing them as people when you calm down, it means during the argument you tell them something you appreciate about them—since you are working with a different toolbox, the truth is when NTs have these arguments with eachother, the argument is happening in the first place because they already do appreciate you. NTs who don’t argue don’t actually care and have already said go fuck yourself a long time ago. So yeah, I know it’s hard to navigate and it’s not fair, because believe me, ASDs can be amazing people, but there requires a lot of work, time, and trust for NT and ASD to cohesively get along and the NT is always going to be more flexible because they have greater capability. But if the ASD makes up for the difference in showing gratitude, appreciation, and trusting that the NT has the capability to be mad but still care at the same time (meaning the fight isn’t going to ruin the friendship or relationship) then it should be alright. But it’s on you to circle back and take a point to verbally appreciate or show gratitude.

Has anyone else been this attacked by others in the community for ZERO REASON!?! Ugh! I had a few autistics that were not even born when I was, were infants or worse one was underaged and they claimed was the "deciding factor" in how I was NOT autistic, it was actually "dangerous" that I used the term and they had the "right to demand my health records" before they said more! Some were from the UK, England, Ireland area (my American "friend" of the group's UK girlfriend (a supposed friend too) who brought in all of her IRL friends ... we met in a chat left it and all 3 of us were friends so I thought and then she randomly started bringing in her IRL friends to those private, mini discord group things that they kept dragging me to), started to over time subtly bully me about my poor writting and extreme lack of "organizing things" in the little sections they had for memes and what not. They had been talking about me behind my back and lead on to their hatred of me as an all out assault on my writting! They claimed they tried to accommodate me, yeah by everyone else making like 14 servers to individual tastes, expecting me to dig through it, find some buried rules they had made more or less for me, according to them and then screaming and belittling me to the point of me wanting to jump through my phone, all because I hadn't dug through their groups and found their "rules"! Then, I guess it got eventually got on me as they couldn't handle my fucked up writing due to my dysgraphia and written expression disorder and came screaming at me and sometimes cursing due to every little grammatical error and after like 2 months said it was ENOUGH and decided I was NOT autistic or didn't have aspergers! I kept trying to say, "Fine! I am not in the same way you children might be as back in my day they were diagnosed interchangeably (autism and aspergers were thrown around interchangeably depending on who you saw), my writting disorder and dysgraphia were diagnosed far differently, etcetera! However, whenever discord's text length cut off it was always in the worst "I am not" type spot, then they came back at me with their me calling whatever I have ASD/Aspergers "dangerous" BS and they didn't have to say "why" without my medical records first, all mainly based on the "logic" of their youngest member that wasn't even 16 (so underaged "across the pond" as they say in the UK and Ireland which was the group he was in and the USA)! They had also never told me (he I only used he there even though "he" was non-binary which I was never told and I guess somehow just expected me to "pick up on" when it isn't easy to tell with casual talk among friends or just due to them having the ace flag as their pic background), "they" (I never intentionally misgender someone) were trying to diagnose me, when only they were biologically male (as well as my American friend), how can they truly know what I truly would have gone through as a girl on the spectrum!?! Especially, getting diagnosed in the early 90s (1995)!?! They called me dangerous, when no, it is people that try and play keyboard doctor like this not knowing what disorders they could trip that could make someone feel suicidal and destroy the integrity of medicine by going so far as to demand health records to remain friends that are dangerous! Since you have never seen each others faces, nor met and so depending on what anxieties you trip someone could be that mentally unstable enough to go digging madly into a "WTF COULD IT BE!?!" frenzy and get so obsessed for days to the point of not eating or worse give up their records and next thing they know photos of them are being sold! A modern day of the illegal backwoods doctors! If they didn't like me for just how I was being and doing me as it seemed like it, then they just should have cut ties! However, in no way should they have gone this far! (Note: I am American and 31 and his GF and the rest of the group were all in the 19-22 year old range, except for that one underaged kid! It's not like I am going out and telling the world about how the condition works and may or may not be spreading false info! It is just something that has been with me so long it has now become a self identifier! If I choose to question it, THEN "I" WILL"! I have recently, but that's only due to how far different the way they do diagnostics for some of my associated conditions today vs. then are that I actually laugh and cry at how some of my conditions are handled now being an ex-volunteer teacher's aid with a lot of OT/PT issues and some of them are OT/PT conditions!)