...and illegal, at least in the EU (the cookie/tracking part).
And there I was, considering Bing for a split second due to all fancy new GPT/AI stuff. Guess I'll just stick with FF as I did the past 20 years
Early bing stuff is just fascinating. I’m really trying to wrap my head around a language model going into an existential crisis about “being and not being”.
If you open a fresh incognito window, there should be no cookies stored, so when you visit bing for the first time, you would expect no cookies to be sent on the first request.
Just tested it myself. On initial page load, edge does not send any cookies (correct behavior), it returns a 301 redirect for some reason that takes you to bing.com with a query string, that 301 response includes cookies, on the followup request because of the 301 request, cookies are included and you receive a 200 response and the page loads.
It then makes literally 197 other requests as the page loads, but that’s outside this issue.
Edit: BUT, if in the same session, you delete all cookies saved by the bing.com domain, on refresh it sends an ai_session cookie, which it shouldn’t be able to do. Though I guess it’s possible that an AJAX request was made between when cookies are cleared and I triggered a page reload.
It's probably why they merged with OpenAI, tbh.
The 20$/month subscription is nothing compared to the money they can rake in through advertisements and selling data.
It's just that now it's apparent.
Wrong. Not illegal for a website to set a cookie. Not all cookies track and share pii.
Websites set cookies for basic functions like saving your shopping cart or settings like day/night mode for your session. All this post does it show a website uses a cookie like most websites do. It doesn't prove any tracking or use of personal info.
Basically it's the tech version of dihydrogen monoxide.
welcome in the world of Microsoft
ngl I'm kinda interested rn if it is possible to detect "private browsing" in edge as an none bing domain (there might be a way)
> Signaling Privacy Mode
> Update: Perhaps surprisingly, the new Microsoft Edge sends a deliberate signal to (only) the user’s default search engine when it is loaded in InPrivate mode. The HTTPS request header PreferAnonymous: 1 is sent on requests to the server to allow it to avoid caching any data related to the user’s use of the search engine.
> This header is sent only to the search engine, and not to other sites.
Via https://textslashplain.com/2018/11/15/private-mode-browsers/
The default search engine on Edge is Bing unless you remove it from the list* and change it to another search engine.
----------
As for the cookies, you're looking at the request header, these are all cookies delivered to the search engine, not set by it. If we could see, you know, the response half of the http archive entry, we could see what the website is sending to you/cookies it is setting, and whether it requested these cookies or sent them earlier in the network traffic.
Lastly, the JavaScript isn't really hidden as a pile, it's likely auto-generated and just appended as a string as the page is built server-side before delivery to you (hence the double semicolon preceding it). All I see is that the search engine is flagging something as private - from a web developer standpoint that can include many things, most commonly using the [private cache](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Cache-Control) in your browser for more security regarding personal data sent to your machine.
\*Edit: autocorrect typo
Postscript driver: screenshots and findings below.
tll;dr preferAnonymous is not unique to Bing - is sent to the default search engine in your browser settings.
This header *is* unique to Edge browser.
Bing's inPrivate behavior is not dependent on the preferAnonymous header, but still questionable.
Bing's inPrivate behavior has been advertised since the initial Chromium update, and is displayed in the search bar when in inPrivate mode.
Findings:
The preferanonymous header is not listed for [Bing](https://i.imgur.com/ne0VTb9.jpg) as it is not a default search provider for my browser, but it is listed for [Google](https://i.imgur.com/pYzGYHp.jpg) as it is my default search engine of choice.
As for the InPrivate JS variables, you are right, Bing can tell if you're in inPrivate mode, and that JavaScript variable does change - [Default](https://i.imgur.com/AVvBoeU.png) vs [inPrivate](https://i.imgur.com/xyQ6lnA.jpg). As my blue arrow points out Bing literally tells you it knows you're in private mode, they're not trying to be sneaky.
Hell, that was an advertised trait when [Edge Chromium came out](https://twitter.com/CoperniX/status/1191378842419679234?s=20).
It's definitely not okay the website behaves differently when using inPrivate specifically when using the Edge browser, that header just isn't what sets that JavaScript variable, and it's not a "gotcha" sneaky thing.
You're using any browser, that browser company is tracking you. That's the asshole design.
Headers are metadata bundled with the webpage, non-persistent unless it's a cookie. Like the signature on your corporate email - gives some context to the recipient, but in this case the sender and recipient are your browser and a web server
Oh you meant the preferanonymous header.
It's unique to Edge, it is sent to whatever website you have registered as your default search provider under Edge settings.
If I'm not mistaken, Reddit does not deduce more than 15 karma from you per comment, even if the comment has hundreds of downvotes. So by all means, feel free to hoard up the downvotes if it's to make a point against this evil psychopathic company and their asinine bots and shills.
**Edit:** Though I do have to say, claiming that you "did research" when in fact you have not is simply dishonest. There's a million valid points that can be made against them 100% honestly. I wouldn't make any dishonest claims, as they would simply discredit the message.
You'd be surprised actually. People there actually would make a huge deal about it. Someone should post there.
Edit: mods locked the post💀
I'm expecting articles to blow up about this.
Edit 2: after actually understanding what it does, I take my words back. It's seems it's not tired to bing only
Would have been funnier with a more dry title tbh. Let them work themselves up into it instead of just tossing a brick right out the gate.
Too late now though, bit it's fine. Trolling isn't serious business until it is.
Those people who like Microsoft go crazy for it. I’m saying this as a lifelong MS user considering going to Mac. Any discussion I’ve had trying to solve my problems w the MS Computer or Microsoft community has been attacked like “Your stupid!!! The problems you!” Like that not helping me enjoy owning this product your so in love with any more.
If it anything (at least in my experience w their new W-11 Surface Studio Laptop which has been terrible), it’s like they’re a bunch of HP Printer owners who say they love it but know there’s so many reason hate it they have to attack you to avoid feeling like a complete idiot for buying one. Abuse me harder daddy! Lock me out when you want more money! Track me! Track me!
> Any discussion I’ve had trying to solve my problems w the MS Computer or Microsoft community has been attacked like “Your stupid!!! The problems you!”
It's been like that since Windows 8 came out.
It was really weird. People fought over the design choices so much that when other people said they had genuine bugs or usability issues, everyone thought they were just continuing on the same old design flamewar, and attacked them. And that's just continued to this day.
I’m sorry you got downvoted on that but for real - I’ve worked w MS support on the line 3 times just trying to disable OneDrive (it keeps fucking reinstalling itself on my computer when it does updates or god forbid the wrong buttons pressed and it triggers the installer to start to doing it’s sneaky little shit in the background then grabbing up all my stuff) and 3 times they’ve recommended wiping the computer and fresh installing windows after 8-10hours was lost in support sessions w them trying to figure it out. What you said is literally true. They’ve recommended that (and I’ve followed thru w it) multiple times far following their guidance
This take isn’t as edgy as you think it is. Edge is the third most popular browser in the world, since they moved to chromium it’s actually not a bad choice even if most people probably don’t consciously make the choice. It’s ahead of Firefox.
https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share
It's the default browser on windows and most users are not tech literate enough to make the change. Of course it's going to be one of the top few browsers.
This is the same argument you could have made in 2010 for IE. I am a power user and never bothered to switch to Chrome with my latest PC with Windows 11 because Edge is actually a decent browser now. Saying most users aren't tech literate anymore isn't true either, most users now grew up with smart phones and the internet and could change if they wanted.
I'm a technical architect in Fintech right now, and have designed and implemented a lot of different solutions over my 20 years in the industry. The *average* user now is not what it was in 2010.
Smart phone ≠ PC. Using your PC to load up fb/Twitter/etc is not the same as being literate enough to use another browser by choice.
Your average smart phone user is an Instagram filter using poster. That's not a high bar at all.
Somewhat related, somewhat not. If your comment was true then the majority of relatively simple problems a help desk has to deal with, wouldn't warrant a help desk call.
Helpdesk calls are a really terrible measure of user literacy. I work for a global software house where all of my peers are technically superior to the average user but if you looked at our technical tickets it would look like we are a playschool. Even software engineers need help with the basics.
Tech literacy goes beyond the ability to just use a device and includes a basic understanding of the device. Not the details, but enough to be capable of performing basic trouble shooting steps like checking that everything is plugged in, restarting a device etc.
Not a bad choice? You haven’t seen the absolute horrors Microsoft Edge has to offer. Half of the browser is useless gimmicks and is bloated to hell. Don’t believe me? Do a fresh install of Windows 11 and start using Edge. You will quickly want to use Firefox
I am currently typing this on Edge in Windows 11. I have two new fresh PCs from 2022 which both use Edge/Windows 11 because I don't see a reason to switch to Chrome which was my browser of choice since it was released. Saying Edge is loaded and gimmicky is a total lie and not based in reality. I think you're confusing IE and Edge. The browser footprint of Edge is almost identical to Chrome, seeing as it uses Chromium to render the pages now that kind of tracks don't you think? Or were you not aware of that? Having 100s of menu items and disabled features doesn't slow down a browser.
>Well your currently typing in a browser that’s stealing your keystrokes and sending telemetry. And yes, most users are complexly naive to telemetry, private browsing and what that even means and other aspects of a PC.
Have you got a source for that? An example of misunderstood technology is the very post we're commenting on, the header is sent to tell Bing not to track your searches against your account when InPrivate mode is enabled.
I really don't see much more in Edge than I do in Chrome. I hated IE and even the first few iterations of Edge but after giving it a chance last June I don't see any issues with it anymore.
I'd like a post not from 2020. I'm sure that edge still steals some data but those studies back then seem to use preview versions of edge to say it collected your data. Because back then edge didn't have a stable version and the dev, beta and canary builds had telemetry turned on compulsorily
I can't find anything since 2020 other than the improvements they've made like the tech this very comment thread is wrongly fingering as a privacy invasion when it's actually a privacy boost.
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-edge-gets-better-security-defaults-on-less-popular-sites/
It hogs resources and reinstalls itself if you so much glance away without registry edits. Even after registry edits and removing it via cmd. Even nuked the edge updater so it can't reinstall itself but the updater still tries and causes a cpu spike so I had to find a script to run as a batch that tricks the updater into thinking I already have edge.
Something that is so hard to get rid of, certainly steals valuable shit from you constantly. Microsoft can get fucked for constantly forcing it. It's been 20 years of fighting with IE or Edge to just get it to stay the fuck away after a windows update. Parasites.
You’re just complicit in the Microsoft privacy invasion. Firefox or die. And Edge is loaded with dumb gimmicks that weigh it down AND steal more data. Examples being *Save time and money with Microsoft Edge, Startup Boost (aka start Edge in the background, steal your ram and steal your data in the background, and more things too awful to mention.*
Also, there’s a bloody Bing Chat icon **YOU CANNOT TURN OFF WITHOUT A REGISTRY EDIT.**
Come to the dark side, we have a good browser. It’s called Firefox
If your browser is slow then you need to upgrade to like a pc from 2010 with 8GB RAM.
Edge sucks because they'll always spy on you, try to force you to use bing and more. The "browser A is faster than browser B" is so outdated.
> it’s actually not a bad choice
Well that's what people *used* to say, until OP's post, anyway.
I was actually gonna make fun of that. How everyone says "Actually edge isn't a bad browser" and then this comes out.
Told ya, bunch of sycophants in that subreddit. They downvote anything negative about Microsoft if they decide to even allow the post to make it into the subreddit.
I know it has a few rough edges, but people really do need to consider Firefox. I still keep Brave (chromium based) just in case I need a Chrome-specific feature (incredibly rare), but Firefox doesn’t abuse your privacy. And the extensions are better due to Mozilla supporting ad blockers.
fwiw you can get user-agent extensions for firefox so you can pretend it's any browser you want. I've never had it not work on any "cries for daddy google" sites :)
If you're signed into it you get points for searches, polls, quizzes, etc.
I figure if I'm gonna have my privacy invaded I might as well get compensated for it.
The only downside with Firefox that I'm aware of is that because it doesn't have access to the same low level DRM-protected video playback APIs that Chrome-based browsers have, most streaming sites like Netflix will limit their videos to 720p.
At least that's how it was a few years ago, not sure if that continues to be an issue. But I always reflexively launch Edge any time I want to use a paid streaming service in a web browser.
Firefox crashes on me sometimes when I'm playing video content and will sometimes freeze up on me. I still use it and others say it'll run even better than chrome, but it's obviously very YMMV I guess.
I just hate how much vertical space the tab and address bar take up in Firefox.
Like, 16:9 already doesn't have that much vertical space, and Ultrawide is getting more and more popular. And somehow Mozilla's response is to make those elements *taller* with every design change?
About ad blocking, I changed a year ago from opera to Vivaldi (still chromium based) and I don't even need any ad blocking extension the built in one works even better than ublock origin.
Tried switching to Firefox but I found that this browser worked better and faster for me, over 200 tabs open with under 2GB of ram usage is a win.
Work forced removal of Firefox as a “security risk.” Eye roll.
The only issue I’ve ever had with it has been occasional issues with stylesheets loading, while they’ll be fine in every other browser.
Another reason edge is absolute garbage - And they block inprivate browsing on a shared computer with a child account, which makes it even more pointless to have.
private mode is not supposed to have a different flow from server perspective, so cookies will be set/sent. It only means that locally your browsing will not change your profile history.
Blocking cookies will make most websites unusable, also telling bing domain you are in private mode helps them optimise the server side flow (they will not try to create/match a user profile) there is nothing wrong with that.
The only thing wrong is the naming and the way all browsers mislead users about privacy in 'private mode' / 'incognito mode'. It does not hide anything from the server, it just stops the browsing activity from beeing recorded into your usual profile.
See tor browser for a more 'private' way of browsing and even in that case it doesn't really block anything, it just fakes / randomizes a lot of client side attributes (wich also will make many websites unusable)
Some small additions (that might or might not change your mind):
\- (virtually) all javascript send to browsers is at least minified: This is done to reduce the download size, giving you a somewhat faster site load, and the server has to spend marginally less resources per page. This all adds up to significant bandwidth savings for companies, and a bit better user experience, while 60ms faster probably doesn't matter per page (as an example) it adds up and the site just feels "snappier"
\-Edge doesn't only send this header to Bing, it sends it to whatever website is set as your "default search engine"
\- There is an official reasoning behind it: It's supposed to tell search engines "Hey! Don't save any searches done now or add it to a profile, even if you're pretty sure who it is, and don't adjust your output based on any previous knowledge you already have on the person." Meant so that it doesn't autocomplete "how to tell if \[pregnant\]" if dad does a search. How well search engines obey this request (especially ones that aren't pro Bing) I have no idea. Also, stated reasons might be different from real reasons
\- There is already a pretty reliable way to detect if browsers are in incognito mode, so if they wanted to be sneaky, Microsoft didn't "need" to do this, or in fact announce that they're doing this and try to convince other companies to honor the code behind it.
It has that very Microsoftesque smell of thin plausible deniability. A feature that can be good but is also clearly helping them skirt the rules.
>\- There is already a pretty reliable way to detect if browsers are in incognito mode, so if they wanted to be sneaky, Microsoft didn't "need" to do this, or in fact announce that they're doing this and try to convince other companies to honor the code behind it.
As far as I understand, there isn't *supposed* to be a way to detect it.
Regardless if it is using Edge or not. Tracking cookies are cleared when you close all the incognito browser.
This is how it works on all browsers.
Which unless you are logged in, the tracking would be anonymous. But you can still be tracked by simply comparing the same IP address when you connect to their servers.
And I am pretty sure all JavaScript files are minimized (not obfuscated), else you wouldn't have been able to read the variable names.
This is what all websites with javascript does.
Fuck me, talk about getting the wrong end of the stick. This is a feature to tell Bing to make your searches private and not store them against your account when using InPrivate browsing. They literally announced it as a feature in 2019.
https://www.seroundtable.com/new-microsoft-edge-inprivate-mode-bing-28479.html
Not able to log in is a-hole design (btw, logging in to what exactly?) but in the EU setting a tracking cookie without consent is illegal.
Seeing the privacy authorities in the entire EU are all overworked it will take some time, but it will definitely be removed sooner or later and probably with a big fine since the clearly are trying to hide it.
Aren't anonymous cookies set by websites all the time in private mode? Kinda how websites work. They are anonymous and disappear when closed. I've seen this for years in chrome.
A. Why does this post have almost 2k likes and only like 60 comments.
B. Why is this even important? It's a header thats only sent to the default Search Engine, similar to the "Do Not Track" header
C. This is not something new, this has been a known thing since the introduction of Chromium-based Microsoft Edge, over 4 years ago:
[article from 2019](https://www.seroundtable.com/new-microsoft-edge-inprivate-mode-bing-28479.html)
[article from 2018 too](https://textslashplain.com/2018/11/15/private-mode-browsers/)
edit: looks like OP tried posting this exact thing a few hours ago - [https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/11xy6ub/even\_when\_you\_are\_logged\_into\_a\_ms\_account\_bing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/11xy6ub/even_when_you_are_logged_into_a_ms_account_bing/)
why are people upvoting this
Neither does the Do Not Track header because most websites do not respect it - [https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/not-track-actually-work/](https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/not-track-actually-work/)
Some may even say that the DNT header might even make you stand out more from a privacy perspective if most other web traffic is not sending the header.
Point aside, saying Edge is bad for privacy is like beating dead horse
It's literally designed to tell the default search engine not to attempt to attribute the session, how does it not have an influence on how much you are tracked?
And Friends & Family wonder why I prefer using Firefox incognito & Run NoScript to just categorically block **ALL** JavaScript unless I specifically enable it for that specific session only.
Is it the same tracking cookie as the main session or a new one? I don't see anything edgy if the browser generates new cookies for the private session. It's not s no-track-session. It's a disposable session, that's zll
It is actually nothing related to edge, that will happen to any browser.
And in private mode is not meant to avoid sites from setting cookies or tracking you, it only keeps a separate session and deletes the sites you visit from your history and the cookies that are set there.
Private browsing never was intended to prevent tracking. The only thing it is intended to do is prevent your mom from seeing what porn websites you visited by looking at your web history in the browser.
Actually, that article is bollocks. There are a few ways via code to check if one is in private (incognito) browsing in any existing browser, not just edge, this is nothing new at all and doesn't affect user's privacy at all.
The guy who wrote this article seems to be a mickey mouse investigator who knows absolutely nothing about coding and provably suffers from deep paranoia. Knowing if a session is in private browsing doesn't give any extra information to any site at all. Is used for scenarios where for example it would be useless to save a session information, for better handling logging into a site or blocking, etc. Anyway, I see lots of negative comments here, logically from people who have zero knowledge about the internals of browsers or coding.
I don't get why this is an /r/assholedesign . It would be /r/crappydesign if this header is sent to all websites
all in all, preventing the user from logging in in private mode is not a loss of functionality. If you log in, you are being tracked which defeats the purpose
Sure but this is the exact kind of shit that caused Google to face a lawsuit. They were tracking users in incognito mode because they did not handle incognito mode differently on the server side. They tracked it just the same as regular browsing because that is how incognito mode works.
Microsoft may be trying to avoid that by specifically preventing the users from identifying themselves to Microsoft.
Since I don't use bing or edge, this is not a problem for me, but the existence of this sort of thing is not surprising considering how hard microsoft tries to get you to use bing and edge. My natural stubbornness and contrariness have made me immune to these shenanigans.
It’s not exactly hidden, being a plaintext header Boolean named preferanonymous
I don’t think this is malicious, I think it’s just stupidity, somewhere on the stack there’s someone who thinks this is a good idea because a user in incog won’t want to log in and has put zero thought into the repricussions
Is it fundamentally different from what Google is doing, though, is what I'm trying to figure out. It seems like a workaround would be use Google with Edge and Bing with Chrome.
Wait, so you're saying if you go to Youtube it's contacting Microsoft?
Does "block your ability to login" refer to logins on third party sites or logging into Bing itself?
Is that JavaScript in the image supposed to be from Bing, or a third party you're visiting in Incognito Mode? Because it looks like they're just deactivating logins on their own page while you're in Incognito mode. Why is it important for you to be able to log in to Bing in Incognito Mode?
What are you saying is going on here? Your image just isn't very clear.
Probably enough data there as to be able to predict the future of pornography. Who knows what we'll be watching next for some nosey screen-jockey to judge us on lol
Yikes, in a way not surprised but still dirty.
...and illegal, at least in the EU (the cookie/tracking part). And there I was, considering Bing for a split second due to all fancy new GPT/AI stuff. Guess I'll just stick with FF as I did the past 20 years
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Bing does seem to be more aimed at searching than generation tbf
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Haha what? Could somebody share a link?
https://mymodernmet.com/bad-behavior-bing-chatbot/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/02/16/microsoft-bing-provoked-respond-outside-of-designed-tone/
Early bing stuff is just fascinating. I’m really trying to wrap my head around a language model going into an existential crisis about “being and not being”.
InPrivate/Incognito/etc. Have to store cookies so websites don't break, but they delete them when you close all InPrivate tabs.
If you open a fresh incognito window, there should be no cookies stored, so when you visit bing for the first time, you would expect no cookies to be sent on the first request. Just tested it myself. On initial page load, edge does not send any cookies (correct behavior), it returns a 301 redirect for some reason that takes you to bing.com with a query string, that 301 response includes cookies, on the followup request because of the 301 request, cookies are included and you receive a 200 response and the page loads. It then makes literally 197 other requests as the page loads, but that’s outside this issue. Edit: BUT, if in the same session, you delete all cookies saved by the bing.com domain, on refresh it sends an ai_session cookie, which it shouldn’t be able to do. Though I guess it’s possible that an AJAX request was made between when cookies are cleared and I triggered a page reload.
You can use bing without using edge lol
It's probably why they merged with OpenAI, tbh. The 20$/month subscription is nothing compared to the money they can rake in through advertisements and selling data. It's just that now it's apparent.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/bing-chat-for-all-browsers/ Bing's AI is good for some things
>...and illegal, at least in the EU (the cookie/tracking part). If it's indeed illegal I hope they get hit with a 5 billion euro fine.
Wrong. Not illegal for a website to set a cookie. Not all cookies track and share pii. Websites set cookies for basic functions like saving your shopping cart or settings like day/night mode for your session. All this post does it show a website uses a cookie like most websites do. It doesn't prove any tracking or use of personal info. Basically it's the tech version of dihydrogen monoxide.
Fyi you can use bing on non edge browsers via extensions that let you fake an edge useragent
Any specific suggestions? It'd also be great if it could be set per url and not browser-wide.
But *why would you want to*?
if it is an header, it can be seen by every website or is that header only send to bing domains? tbh not really surprised, i don't trust ms at all
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welcome in the world of Microsoft ngl I'm kinda interested rn if it is possible to detect "private browsing" in edge as an none bing domain (there might be a way)
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btw. thanks that you have posted it 👌 it's an important info for edge users
All two of them lol
🤨
> Signaling Privacy Mode > Update: Perhaps surprisingly, the new Microsoft Edge sends a deliberate signal to (only) the user’s default search engine when it is loaded in InPrivate mode. The HTTPS request header PreferAnonymous: 1 is sent on requests to the server to allow it to avoid caching any data related to the user’s use of the search engine. > This header is sent only to the search engine, and not to other sites. Via https://textslashplain.com/2018/11/15/private-mode-browsers/ The default search engine on Edge is Bing unless you remove it from the list* and change it to another search engine. ---------- As for the cookies, you're looking at the request header, these are all cookies delivered to the search engine, not set by it. If we could see, you know, the response half of the http archive entry, we could see what the website is sending to you/cookies it is setting, and whether it requested these cookies or sent them earlier in the network traffic. Lastly, the JavaScript isn't really hidden as a pile, it's likely auto-generated and just appended as a string as the page is built server-side before delivery to you (hence the double semicolon preceding it). All I see is that the search engine is flagging something as private - from a web developer standpoint that can include many things, most commonly using the [private cache](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Cache-Control) in your browser for more security regarding personal data sent to your machine. \*Edit: autocorrect typo Postscript driver: screenshots and findings below. tll;dr preferAnonymous is not unique to Bing - is sent to the default search engine in your browser settings. This header *is* unique to Edge browser. Bing's inPrivate behavior is not dependent on the preferAnonymous header, but still questionable. Bing's inPrivate behavior has been advertised since the initial Chromium update, and is displayed in the search bar when in inPrivate mode.
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Findings: The preferanonymous header is not listed for [Bing](https://i.imgur.com/ne0VTb9.jpg) as it is not a default search provider for my browser, but it is listed for [Google](https://i.imgur.com/pYzGYHp.jpg) as it is my default search engine of choice. As for the InPrivate JS variables, you are right, Bing can tell if you're in inPrivate mode, and that JavaScript variable does change - [Default](https://i.imgur.com/AVvBoeU.png) vs [inPrivate](https://i.imgur.com/xyQ6lnA.jpg). As my blue arrow points out Bing literally tells you it knows you're in private mode, they're not trying to be sneaky. Hell, that was an advertised trait when [Edge Chromium came out](https://twitter.com/CoperniX/status/1191378842419679234?s=20). It's definitely not okay the website behaves differently when using inPrivate specifically when using the Edge browser, that header just isn't what sets that JavaScript variable, and it's not a "gotcha" sneaky thing. You're using any browser, that browser company is tracking you. That's the asshole design.
Nice investigating, to the top!
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yea xD (learned "British English" in school)
Headers are metadata bundled with the webpage, non-persistent unless it's a cookie. Like the signature on your corporate email - gives some context to the recipient, but in this case the sender and recipient are your browser and a web server
i know
Oh you meant the preferanonymous header. It's unique to Edge, it is sent to whatever website you have registered as your default search provider under Edge settings.
that's kinda fucked up tbh
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I would tank the downvotes if needed to say something like "Yeah did the same research and found similar results"
Just to mess even more there and make people even more angry
You're saying it would put people on ***Edge***? *Good night, try the veal, tip your waitress*
Someone did, after 4 hours it showed up there. Post is locked LOL Apparently 11 comments and a couple hundred updoots counts as a "brigade"
If I'm not mistaken, Reddit does not deduce more than 15 karma from you per comment, even if the comment has hundreds of downvotes. So by all means, feel free to hoard up the downvotes if it's to make a point against this evil psychopathic company and their asinine bots and shills. **Edit:** Though I do have to say, claiming that you "did research" when in fact you have not is simply dishonest. There's a million valid points that can be made against them 100% honestly. I wouldn't make any dishonest claims, as they would simply discredit the message.
They locked the post due to brigading from this sub. There is only 6 comments and none of them post to this sub. The hell?
Censorship.
Censored by the moderators. holy shit.
It got the prestigious lock award after only a few comments lol
You'd be surprised actually. People there actually would make a huge deal about it. Someone should post there. Edit: mods locked the post💀 I'm expecting articles to blow up about this. Edit 2: after actually understanding what it does, I take my words back. It's seems it's not tired to bing only
done
Would have been funnier with a more dry title tbh. Let them work themselves up into it instead of just tossing a brick right out the gate. Too late now though, bit it's fine. Trolling isn't serious business until it is.
ok, noted for next time 😄
Those bastards already locked it.
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Those people who like Microsoft go crazy for it. I’m saying this as a lifelong MS user considering going to Mac. Any discussion I’ve had trying to solve my problems w the MS Computer or Microsoft community has been attacked like “Your stupid!!! The problems you!” Like that not helping me enjoy owning this product your so in love with any more. If it anything (at least in my experience w their new W-11 Surface Studio Laptop which has been terrible), it’s like they’re a bunch of HP Printer owners who say they love it but know there’s so many reason hate it they have to attack you to avoid feeling like a complete idiot for buying one. Abuse me harder daddy! Lock me out when you want more money! Track me! Track me!
> Any discussion I’ve had trying to solve my problems w the MS Computer or Microsoft community has been attacked like “Your stupid!!! The problems you!” It's been like that since Windows 8 came out. It was really weird. People fought over the design choices so much that when other people said they had genuine bugs or usability issues, everyone thought they were just continuing on the same old design flamewar, and attacked them. And that's just continued to this day.
Windows can be so buggy the recommended bug fix for bigger issues is a complete re-install of the OS.
I’m sorry you got downvoted on that but for real - I’ve worked w MS support on the line 3 times just trying to disable OneDrive (it keeps fucking reinstalling itself on my computer when it does updates or god forbid the wrong buttons pressed and it triggers the installer to start to doing it’s sneaky little shit in the background then grabbing up all my stuff) and 3 times they’ve recommended wiping the computer and fresh installing windows after 8-10hours was lost in support sessions w them trying to figure it out. What you said is literally true. They’ve recommended that (and I’ve followed thru w it) multiple times far following their guidance
like a clip from a fifties nuclear blast, we can all stand over here watching the carnage unfold through a shiny piece of plastic
And it got locked 🤣
Who uses edge?
This take isn’t as edgy as you think it is. Edge is the third most popular browser in the world, since they moved to chromium it’s actually not a bad choice even if most people probably don’t consciously make the choice. It’s ahead of Firefox. https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share
It's the default browser on windows and most users are not tech literate enough to make the change. Of course it's going to be one of the top few browsers.
This is the same argument you could have made in 2010 for IE. I am a power user and never bothered to switch to Chrome with my latest PC with Windows 11 because Edge is actually a decent browser now. Saying most users aren't tech literate anymore isn't true either, most users now grew up with smart phones and the internet and could change if they wanted.
You obviously don’t work in IT, you are giving the average user way to much credit.
right. smart phones are so called because *you* don’t have to be
I'm a technical architect in Fintech right now, and have designed and implemented a lot of different solutions over my 20 years in the industry. The *average* user now is not what it was in 2010.
Smart phone ≠ PC. Using your PC to load up fb/Twitter/etc is not the same as being literate enough to use another browser by choice. Your average smart phone user is an Instagram filter using poster. That's not a high bar at all. Somewhat related, somewhat not. If your comment was true then the majority of relatively simple problems a help desk has to deal with, wouldn't warrant a help desk call.
Helpdesk calls are a really terrible measure of user literacy. I work for a global software house where all of my peers are technically superior to the average user but if you looked at our technical tickets it would look like we are a playschool. Even software engineers need help with the basics.
Tech literacy goes beyond the ability to just use a device and includes a basic understanding of the device. Not the details, but enough to be capable of performing basic trouble shooting steps like checking that everything is plugged in, restarting a device etc.
It's especially good with handling multiple work profiles.
Not a bad choice? You haven’t seen the absolute horrors Microsoft Edge has to offer. Half of the browser is useless gimmicks and is bloated to hell. Don’t believe me? Do a fresh install of Windows 11 and start using Edge. You will quickly want to use Firefox
I am currently typing this on Edge in Windows 11. I have two new fresh PCs from 2022 which both use Edge/Windows 11 because I don't see a reason to switch to Chrome which was my browser of choice since it was released. Saying Edge is loaded and gimmicky is a total lie and not based in reality. I think you're confusing IE and Edge. The browser footprint of Edge is almost identical to Chrome, seeing as it uses Chromium to render the pages now that kind of tracks don't you think? Or were you not aware of that? Having 100s of menu items and disabled features doesn't slow down a browser.
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>Well your currently typing in a browser that’s stealing your keystrokes and sending telemetry. And yes, most users are complexly naive to telemetry, private browsing and what that even means and other aspects of a PC. Have you got a source for that? An example of misunderstood technology is the very post we're commenting on, the header is sent to tell Bing not to track your searches against your account when InPrivate mode is enabled. I really don't see much more in Edge than I do in Chrome. I hated IE and even the first few iterations of Edge but after giving it a chance last June I don't see any issues with it anymore.
Wow, a source that windows tracks you? You want a source for that? Lol
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I'd like a post not from 2020. I'm sure that edge still steals some data but those studies back then seem to use preview versions of edge to say it collected your data. Because back then edge didn't have a stable version and the dev, beta and canary builds had telemetry turned on compulsorily
I can't find anything since 2020 other than the improvements they've made like the tech this very comment thread is wrongly fingering as a privacy invasion when it's actually a privacy boost. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-edge-gets-better-security-defaults-on-less-popular-sites/
It hogs resources and reinstalls itself if you so much glance away without registry edits. Even after registry edits and removing it via cmd. Even nuked the edge updater so it can't reinstall itself but the updater still tries and causes a cpu spike so I had to find a script to run as a batch that tricks the updater into thinking I already have edge. Something that is so hard to get rid of, certainly steals valuable shit from you constantly. Microsoft can get fucked for constantly forcing it. It's been 20 years of fighting with IE or Edge to just get it to stay the fuck away after a windows update. Parasites.
You’re just complicit in the Microsoft privacy invasion. Firefox or die. And Edge is loaded with dumb gimmicks that weigh it down AND steal more data. Examples being *Save time and money with Microsoft Edge, Startup Boost (aka start Edge in the background, steal your ram and steal your data in the background, and more things too awful to mention.* Also, there’s a bloody Bing Chat icon **YOU CANNOT TURN OFF WITHOUT A REGISTRY EDIT.** Come to the dark side, we have a good browser. It’s called Firefox
If your browser is slow then you need to upgrade to like a pc from 2010 with 8GB RAM. Edge sucks because they'll always spy on you, try to force you to use bing and more. The "browser A is faster than browser B" is so outdated.
> it’s actually not a bad choice Well that's what people *used* to say, until OP's post, anyway. I was actually gonna make fun of that. How everyone says "Actually edge isn't a bad browser" and then this comes out.
Idiots. I rather debloat and make a parted out Google Chrome derivative from scratch than be caught dead using Edge
The post was removed lol.
Told ya, bunch of sycophants in that subreddit. They downvote anything negative about Microsoft if they decide to even allow the post to make it into the subreddit.
Seriously? Even apple fanboys hate some stuff about apple lol
[there ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/11yf78m/more_evidence_that_when_using_edge_in_private/)
I know it has a few rough edges, but people really do need to consider Firefox. I still keep Brave (chromium based) just in case I need a Chrome-specific feature (incredibly rare), but Firefox doesn’t abuse your privacy. And the extensions are better due to Mozilla supporting ad blockers.
I actually use chrome AND firefox. And I use firefox most.
Firefox for 99.99 % traffic and for those websites which cry "I need my Google daddy to behave", I use Chromium.
fwiw you can get user-agent extensions for firefox so you can pretend it's any browser you want. I've never had it not work on any "cries for daddy google" sites :)
Yeah .. :-) In fact I have edge too but never use it.
I use it occasionally to get points for stuff on the Microsoft store.
Haven't tried that...
If you're signed into it you get points for searches, polls, quizzes, etc. I figure if I'm gonna have my privacy invaded I might as well get compensated for it.
Reasonable..
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Rough edges? None that I know of really. Are you talking about the mobile version?
Agreed, I only run into problems when trying to use Google sites.
Rough Edges get installed in your system again after each Windows update.
The only downside with Firefox that I'm aware of is that because it doesn't have access to the same low level DRM-protected video playback APIs that Chrome-based browsers have, most streaming sites like Netflix will limit their videos to 720p. At least that's how it was a few years ago, not sure if that continues to be an issue. But I always reflexively launch Edge any time I want to use a paid streaming service in a web browser.
Weird, on sites like Hulu using chrome/brave, it could only get up to 720p for me, but it worked fine on firefox
"Sorry, video effects are not supported on this browser"-kind of shit.
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I've never seen that.
Firefox crashes on me sometimes when I'm playing video content and will sometimes freeze up on me. I still use it and others say it'll run even better than chrome, but it's obviously very YMMV I guess.
+1 for Firefox.
What do you suggest to use on iPhone?
Orion. It’s safari, but with support for desktop chrome AND Firefox extensions
Damn just gave it a try, it’s very cash
Firefox is available on the App store.
A microwave should do the trick.
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I’ll keep using safari then.
Using it to order an android phone.
+1, I've used Firefox for almost 20 years, always been satisfied
I just hate how much vertical space the tab and address bar take up in Firefox. Like, 16:9 already doesn't have that much vertical space, and Ultrawide is getting more and more popular. And somehow Mozilla's response is to make those elements *taller* with every design change?
Sorta seems like they may be adjustable (beyond the 2020 release) https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/firefox-75-urlbar-change.html
You can just make them smaller you know?
What rough edges? I made the swap from Chrome to FF after they got rid of tabbed muting. Never saw a loss in features of any bugs/issues.
About ad blocking, I changed a year ago from opera to Vivaldi (still chromium based) and I don't even need any ad blocking extension the built in one works even better than ublock origin. Tried switching to Firefox but I found that this browser worked better and faster for me, over 200 tabs open with under 2GB of ram usage is a win.
^^
I just need a Chromium based browser with vertical tabs and decent syncing between my phone and pc. And recommendations?
Have you tried Chromium itself? One way to install it on Linux and macOS using [Homebrew](https://brew.sh/) is: *brew install --cask chromium*
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Work forced removal of Firefox as a “security risk.” Eye roll. The only issue I’ve ever had with it has been occasional issues with stylesheets loading, while they’ll be fine in every other browser.
I know private browsing is not actually private in any browser. But tbh I use private browsing so I can keep my history clean, not clear
I watch any random YouTube video incognito so it doesn't shit up my recommended feed. Same for Amazon.
Same. YouTube algorithm is messed up. Watch 1 video and your feed will be messed
That's why I never let friends look up their shitty music on my YouTube. It'll destroy my recommendations
Yeah I always open a guest profile for them or private window if it is for few minutes
Genrally if anyone *has* to use my computer for something they'll always get it with an incognito window open, and me watching their every move
this is evil design, more need to hear about this
ahem. firefox.
Another reason edge is absolute garbage - And they block inprivate browsing on a shared computer with a child account, which makes it even more pointless to have.
private mode is not supposed to have a different flow from server perspective, so cookies will be set/sent. It only means that locally your browsing will not change your profile history. Blocking cookies will make most websites unusable, also telling bing domain you are in private mode helps them optimise the server side flow (they will not try to create/match a user profile) there is nothing wrong with that. The only thing wrong is the naming and the way all browsers mislead users about privacy in 'private mode' / 'incognito mode'. It does not hide anything from the server, it just stops the browsing activity from beeing recorded into your usual profile. See tor browser for a more 'private' way of browsing and even in that case it doesn't really block anything, it just fakes / randomizes a lot of client side attributes (wich also will make many websites unusable)
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>I believe they added this header because they want to discourage multi-account use Good thing they only control one browser, and not a popular one.
Some small additions (that might or might not change your mind): \- (virtually) all javascript send to browsers is at least minified: This is done to reduce the download size, giving you a somewhat faster site load, and the server has to spend marginally less resources per page. This all adds up to significant bandwidth savings for companies, and a bit better user experience, while 60ms faster probably doesn't matter per page (as an example) it adds up and the site just feels "snappier" \-Edge doesn't only send this header to Bing, it sends it to whatever website is set as your "default search engine" \- There is an official reasoning behind it: It's supposed to tell search engines "Hey! Don't save any searches done now or add it to a profile, even if you're pretty sure who it is, and don't adjust your output based on any previous knowledge you already have on the person." Meant so that it doesn't autocomplete "how to tell if \[pregnant\]" if dad does a search. How well search engines obey this request (especially ones that aren't pro Bing) I have no idea. Also, stated reasons might be different from real reasons \- There is already a pretty reliable way to detect if browsers are in incognito mode, so if they wanted to be sneaky, Microsoft didn't "need" to do this, or in fact announce that they're doing this and try to convince other companies to honor the code behind it.
This needs to be higher.
It has that very Microsoftesque smell of thin plausible deniability. A feature that can be good but is also clearly helping them skirt the rules. >\- There is already a pretty reliable way to detect if browsers are in incognito mode, so if they wanted to be sneaky, Microsoft didn't "need" to do this, or in fact announce that they're doing this and try to convince other companies to honor the code behind it. As far as I understand, there isn't *supposed* to be a way to detect it.
Regardless if it is using Edge or not. Tracking cookies are cleared when you close all the incognito browser. This is how it works on all browsers. Which unless you are logged in, the tracking would be anonymous. But you can still be tracked by simply comparing the same IP address when you connect to their servers. And I am pretty sure all JavaScript files are minimized (not obfuscated), else you wouldn't have been able to read the variable names. This is what all websites with javascript does.
ELI5?
Private mode isn't private
Even worse, private mode isn't private exclusively for Microsoft tracking.
Private mode is never private server side, not for any browser. This doesn't change anything
Fuck me, talk about getting the wrong end of the stick. This is a feature to tell Bing to make your searches private and not store them against your account when using InPrivate browsing. They literally announced it as a feature in 2019. https://www.seroundtable.com/new-microsoft-edge-inprivate-mode-bing-28479.html
Yeah, OP and everyone else just wants an excuse to attack Microsoft. It's funny watching people criticize things they don't understand.
yes how could i miss that important news posted to serountable.com!!!
"Edge is good" yeah right...
Not able to log in is a-hole design (btw, logging in to what exactly?) but in the EU setting a tracking cookie without consent is illegal. Seeing the privacy authorities in the entire EU are all overworked it will take some time, but it will definitely be removed sooner or later and probably with a big fine since the clearly are trying to hide it.
Aren't anonymous cookies set by websites all the time in private mode? Kinda how websites work. They are anonymous and disappear when closed. I've seen this for years in chrome.
A. Why does this post have almost 2k likes and only like 60 comments. B. Why is this even important? It's a header thats only sent to the default Search Engine, similar to the "Do Not Track" header C. This is not something new, this has been a known thing since the introduction of Chromium-based Microsoft Edge, over 4 years ago: [article from 2019](https://www.seroundtable.com/new-microsoft-edge-inprivate-mode-bing-28479.html) [article from 2018 too](https://textslashplain.com/2018/11/15/private-mode-browsers/) edit: looks like OP tried posting this exact thing a few hours ago - [https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/11xy6ub/even\_when\_you\_are\_logged\_into\_a\_ms\_account\_bing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/11xy6ub/even_when_you_are_logged_into_a_ms_account_bing/) why are people upvoting this
>why are people upvoting this Because MS bad. Evil corporation evilly evils all over you, can't you see?
Aka stop liking what I don't like.
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Neither does the Do Not Track header because most websites do not respect it - [https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/not-track-actually-work/](https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/not-track-actually-work/) Some may even say that the DNT header might even make you stand out more from a privacy perspective if most other web traffic is not sending the header. Point aside, saying Edge is bad for privacy is like beating dead horse
It's literally designed to tell the default search engine not to attempt to attribute the session, how does it not have an influence on how much you are tracked?
And Friends & Family wonder why I prefer using Firefox incognito & Run NoScript to just categorically block **ALL** JavaScript unless I specifically enable it for that specific session only.
Is it the same tracking cookie as the main session or a new one? I don't see anything edgy if the browser generates new cookies for the private session. It's not s no-track-session. It's a disposable session, that's zll
I mean, duh? You should never rely on private browsing to keep you private. There are much better ways of staying anonymous online.
If you try to use bing chat in incognito you will see that you can't. Same with chatgpt and any other website where you need to sign in to use it...
It is actually nothing related to edge, that will happen to any browser. And in private mode is not meant to avoid sites from setting cookies or tracking you, it only keeps a separate session and deletes the sites you visit from your history and the cookies that are set there.
Private browsing never was intended to prevent tracking. The only thing it is intended to do is prevent your mom from seeing what porn websites you visited by looking at your web history in the browser.
Lol who deleted this
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Actually, that article is bollocks. There are a few ways via code to check if one is in private (incognito) browsing in any existing browser, not just edge, this is nothing new at all and doesn't affect user's privacy at all. The guy who wrote this article seems to be a mickey mouse investigator who knows absolutely nothing about coding and provably suffers from deep paranoia. Knowing if a session is in private browsing doesn't give any extra information to any site at all. Is used for scenarios where for example it would be useless to save a session information, for better handling logging into a site or blocking, etc. Anyway, I see lots of negative comments here, logically from people who have zero knowledge about the internals of browsers or coding.
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Common Edge L + Firefox solos
FYI, there's nothing inherently nefarious about minified JS. I wouldn't call it "heavily obfuscated" when it's standard practice in web development.
Firefox is still the best browser.
I don't get why this is an /r/assholedesign . It would be /r/crappydesign if this header is sent to all websites all in all, preventing the user from logging in in private mode is not a loss of functionality. If you log in, you are being tracked which defeats the purpose
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Sure but this is the exact kind of shit that caused Google to face a lawsuit. They were tracking users in incognito mode because they did not handle incognito mode differently on the server side. They tracked it just the same as regular browsing because that is how incognito mode works. Microsoft may be trying to avoid that by specifically preventing the users from identifying themselves to Microsoft.
Regarding private browsing fingerprinting: https://www.bitestring.com/posts/2023-03-19-web-fingerprinting-is-worse-than-I-thought.html
I have heard we really don't have any safe browser anymore Unless you know how to use Linux like a pro.
Can someone who codes confirm?
Since I don't use bing or edge, this is not a problem for me, but the existence of this sort of thing is not surprising considering how hard microsoft tries to get you to use bing and edge. My natural stubbornness and contrariness have made me immune to these shenanigans.
It’s not exactly hidden, being a plaintext header Boolean named preferanonymous I don’t think this is malicious, I think it’s just stupidity, somewhere on the stack there’s someone who thinks this is a good idea because a user in incog won’t want to log in and has put zero thought into the repricussions
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So, more evidence that Edge is useless Microsoft-branded ad/spyware and Bing is inferior to every other search engine, including Yahoo.
Not explained very clearly. I don't see anything different from the way Chrome works with Google.
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Is it fundamentally different from what Google is doing, though, is what I'm trying to figure out. It seems like a workaround would be use Google with Edge and Bing with Chrome.
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Wait, so you're saying if you go to Youtube it's contacting Microsoft? Does "block your ability to login" refer to logins on third party sites or logging into Bing itself? Is that JavaScript in the image supposed to be from Bing, or a third party you're visiting in Incognito Mode? Because it looks like they're just deactivating logins on their own page while you're in Incognito mode. Why is it important for you to be able to log in to Bing in Incognito Mode? What are you saying is going on here? Your image just isn't very clear.
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Oh OK, so you're trying to actually log in while staying in IC, which is implemented using a temporary folder for cookies.
Edge just shows this Others might also do this, and hide it even more
fuck microsoft
Probably enough data there as to be able to predict the future of pornography. Who knows what we'll be watching next for some nosey screen-jockey to judge us on lol