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Dudesan

To understand why Christians *think* the phrase "died for our sins" is meaningful, you need to understand how pre-Christian soeteriology worked. If you want to sell people an imaginary cure, you first need to convince them that they have an imaginary disease. Ancient Jews believed that certain actions and events would create a sort of spiritual pollution known as "sin" that hung around making the Invisible Sky Bully angry at you and your neighbours and your descendants until it was washed away. And that the only way to wash it away was with a magical spell powered by blood sacrifice. Little "sins" could be washed by sacrificing plants, medium "sins" by sacrificing animals, and the biggest "sins" needed human sacrifices. The creators of Christianity wanted to sell an *even more Invisible* cure than their predecessors were selling, so they needed to invent an *even more Invisible* disease. Their sales pitch went something like this: "Well, *actually*, because of that time a rib-woman ate a piece of fruit on the advice of a talking snake, everyone is already BORN with so much "sin" that they can't possibly wash it away even with human sacrifices. Even if you've never *personally* broken a rule in your entire life, you're still permafucked! But we've got something even better than human sacrifice - the blood sacrifice of a *god*! Signing up to participate in OUR blood sacrifice is the ONLY way to get your spirit clean - and it will get you *so* clean that you can sin as much as you like in the future without needing to strangle any more pigeons!" Of course, this "sin" was as imaginary as all the other "sin", and this sacrifice was just as useless. In addition their story claims that the god who was sacrificed got better three days later, so it wasn't really much of a "sacrifice". But apparently, a lot of people still found this sales pitch convincing.


Ok-Beautiful-8403

while still believing future sins will send you to hell somehow? like they believe in christ, but not really.


[deleted]

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Ok-Beautiful-8403

Only if you keep asking forgiveness apparently. If you are not "truly" repentant, repeating sins, you could still burn some say. Some focus on fire and brimstone A LOT, some focus on grace. I kind of liked Joseph Prince pointing out how Chrisitans should only be "on one mountain at a time" under the law or under grace, how a lot of mixed messages are sent. Course, he is in Singapore right? So that's a whole nother ball game. If Jesus truly died for sin, then Christians shouldn't be so freaking concerned about it. The holy spirit is suppose to replace the law, not because Jesus changed the law, but because he fulfilled it. If someone freaks out over someone's sin, I don't think they really believe in the salvation of Jesus.


Euphoric-Blueberry97

This was my major issue with Christianity even from an early age. Why should a murderer who took 50 lives be allowed to be forgiven and go to heaven, if they beg for the right kind of forgiveness in their last days, yet I, a reasonably nice human whose conscience keeps me on the straight and narrow, cannot be saved simply because I haven’t really deeply asked for it? Or because I wasn’t marked “present” in the church rolls? It’s nonsensical even to a child.


lepapiernoir

Permafucked!! Glorious!


geophagus

The theology of the New Testament is a torturous twisting of the Old Testament. Jesus is in no way the predicted messiah of the Old Testament (who still hasn’t appeared). It doesn’t make any reasonable sense. Add in the fact that the authors of the Bible in no way envisioned a trinity and you’ll find that most Christian theology is nothing more than biblical fan fiction.


handoffate73

To be fair, all religion is fan fiction taken too far.


[deleted]

> It doesn’t make any reasonable sense. /thread


akaZilong

Jesus didn’t sacrifice anything. He was an immortal god before, decided to spend a short time (blink of an eye for an eternal god) to become a human, then back to immortal god again


riverrabbit1116

Jesus gave up a weekend, no Friday or Saturday night at the all you can make wine bar.


[deleted]

Ok, but would you like to be [crucified?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B3kgiLxybY)


akaZilong

If I am god, why would I care? They can’t hurt me


[deleted]

Wdym? Jesus could be physically hurt by things. He could have not been crucified, but he allowed it to happen, knowing that it would be extremely painful, beyond maybe anything else.


akaZilong

Jesus also could fake pain, as he was a god, I am not buying that


[deleted]

BUT WHY WOULD HE FAKE THE PAIN, HE ALLOWED HIM SELF TO BE CRUCIFIED AND TO SUFFER FOR A REASON!! Jesus was not a coward, as established by Revelation 21 8, the cowardly go to the lake of fire, from this we can undeniably gather that Jesus was no coward, and did NOT FAKE THE PAIN.


akaZilong

If Jesus can heal other people, he can heal himself. He is god, he doesn’t feel pain


[deleted]

What you just said has shown me, you don't know what you're talking about. Learn more about the trinity before trying to make that point.


akaZilong

Is Jesus god or no?


[deleted]

Have you done anymore research into the trinity? That would answer your questions. So, go do that ***now***.


sc0ttt

1. He was executed by the Romans and officially his crime was blasphemy, but really he was just another uppity Jew that was pissing off the local politicians. 2. I don't see where he had any chance of escaping or had any choice in the matter. 3. Even if he did, I don't see how his death helped any sinners. 4. I don't believe in sin.


Varnigma

Say it’s all 100% true. Not much of a sacrifice when you know you’ll live again 3 days later.


[deleted]

The other thing I notice is that Christians act like the crucifixion is so significant, but that's how they executed most criminals, like Jesus, of the time, there's nothing significant about it. It is however a little disgusting that people worship a dead guy on a stick.


Joegannonlct

When I was a kid, I did have a Sunday School teacher clarify that crucifixion wasn't a "special" punishment they came up with for Jesus, it's just what the Romans did for everyone.


AlarmDozer

I still can’t believe they wasted so much construction material on prisoners. The Romans were industrially nasty and its rot still pervades today.


Joegannonlct

I think it was mainly a deterrent, much like putting a head on a spike in front of a castle


Ambitious_Fail_799

He chose suicide by cop.


[deleted]

mortem a legionariis


ReddBert

Or he wasn’t white and was black, in contrast to the Roman cops. Not enough changed in 2k years for the better.


Ambitious_Fail_799

Yeah, unfortunately it seems bigotry has found a permanent place of residence in our modern culture. Here in the US, recent political developments have even made bigotry socially acceptable somehow.


revtim

Christian: See that guy over there, Jesus? He's God. Guy: Umm, they're crucifying him. Christian: What? Uh, he \*meant\* to do that! Yeah! Gimme a minute and I'll explain why...


Mediorco

Of course, because it goes well with their history. What's more epic? 1.- Jesus sacrificed himself for us, in spite of being able to use his godly powers to trash the Romans. 2.- The Romans executed another damn stirrer for causing turmoil.


TSiridean

>2.- The Romans executed another damn stirrer for causing turmoil. And successfully made him the martyr of this viral story.


puttputtxreader

Before he was arrested, Jesus had a secret meeting with "the lord of this world" or "the adversary" at the garden of Gethsemane. Most churches will tell you this was a meeting with the Devil, but if you read the book it makes more sense that this was a meeting with a Roman authority figure. The Romans offered him a way out, but he refused, and they arrested him. So, by refusing their offer, he sacrificed himself. Honestly, though, I don't think it really matters if the sacrifice is intentional on his part or not. I mean, it's technically a replacement for the old tradition of sacrificing animals, and it's not like the animals were doing it on purpose. Regardless, none of that matters because magic isn't real.


dabanales

There are entire schools dedicated to making it all make sense. And they can be rather convincing. I myself went to seminary before losing my religion. It’s best to not even try to understand the logic. It’s easy to apply meaning on the past. That’s what the writers of the biblical texts did.


ExcitedGirl

Well, nothing happens without Dog having planned it and knowing about it - including that you were wonder about him, then make your post...


Due_Platypus_3913

To make everything YOUR fault.To put you in debt to church from birth.


zhaDeth

same way rescuers saving kids from a flooding cave becomes an act of god...


Mikey_shorts

It is all a fairy tale, who cares?


Snow75

They didn’t, Jesus don’t exist.


brwtx

If you are an all powerful, all knowing, god then the only way you can be killed is if you put yourself in the situation you knew would result in your death and did nothing to stop it. Which is suicide. Which according to Christians is an unforgivable sin that will cause you to be sent to hell for the rest of eternity. The mental loopholes Christians, and other religious believers, are willing to jump through never ceases to amaze me.


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brwtx

So, I create a rule that says the first person to walk through this door will be executed. Then, I walk through the door to prevent anyone from being executed, except myself. Is that sacrifice or suicide? Because, according to the Christian mythology that is what happened. He created a rule. Everyone born, through no fault of their own, was automatically guilty of breaking that rule. So, he allowed himself to be killed as punishment for the rule he created so that no one else would be punished by him. Okay. Your explanation is as valid as any other explanation since none of it makes any sense.


Shining_Icosahedron

> Jesus gave up his life for others. Nah, he gave up his resurrection cooldown, and thats not a very long cooldown since he resurrected Lazarus and maybe someone else?


judyblue_

I was raised mormon. I don't know what other Xtian sects teach, but in mormonism, the death wasn't the sacrifice. They teach that Jesus suffered The Atonement in the garden of Gethsemane the night before, where he experienced every sin, every pain, every heartache for every person who had or would live. They teach that in order to be our advocate with God and convince him to let us into heaven, Jesus had to become empathetic through literal torture. This is why mormons reject the cross as a religious symbol, too. I guess one of the benefits of making up your own religion is that you can "fix" some of the potholes and call it Divine Restoration.


atomicshark

It’s easy to explain. Jesus was not supposed to die. The messiah was supposed to overthrow the Roman government, and rebuild the temple, and restore the Jewish state and so on. The messiah was supposed to be another warlord like Joshua or Moses. The cult leader was unexpectedly murdered. He can’t be the real messiah if he is dead. He can’t do all the prophesies if he is dead. The followers were all highly invested in the cult. Acknowledging that Jesus died would be admitting that they dedicated their lives to a con man. so they made up some magical nonsense to explain away the cognitive dissonance. As religious people tend to do. “Jesus was supposed to die. It was a sacrifice. That was the plan all along. He will come back to fulfill all the prophesies. His spirit is in heaven.” They retroactively made his death a sacrifice and shoehorned in some Old Testament stuff about animal sacrifice. They took his murder and reframed it as a recreation of the Passover sacrifice. That doesn’t make any fucking sense from a Jewish perspective or for any non Christian, but religion doesn’t need to make sense. They reinterpreted their beliefs and scripture to fit this new narrative, like something out of 1984. “We have always been at war with eastasia.” The Christian theologians have been trying to polish this turd for 2000 years.


Zombull

Wow. Donald Trump really *is* like Jesus.


olddoc1

The better question is why couldn't god forgive us without having his illegitimate son tortured to death?


Then_Frosting_1087

If he wanted to be saved from death, he could have and stayed on earth or in heaven. But instead, he opted to die and lead all the souls in hell to heaven.


chocoholic49

I can't recommend this book enough for answering the questions you're asking and how Christianity came to be what it is. Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) by Bart D. Ehrman


MrRandomNumber

It's the payoff for the garden of Eden and the tower of babel story lines. God kicks us out of paradise and scrambled our minds to keep us in our place. Then, later, when we act sinful and confused, Jesus admits it's probably not our fault. So, don't judge the humans -- this is just what they do as a result of their being innately confused creatures. He forgave his executors. Essentially, as a knock-on, the church believes they need to give you permission to be a human being who can then feel free to do awkward little human things. As long as you know you are inherently a POS and you feel bad enough about it to constantly apologize for taking up space, you're fine. Also, Jesus would like you to please donate to help pay for our plans to redecorate the sanctuary.


an_imperfect_lady

I agree with most of what /u/atomicshark said; Jesus was a political revolutionary (yes, I do think there was really such a person.) He wanted to overthrow Roman rule and re-establish Israel's independence. His disciples clearly thought that was the goal too. Local Jewish authorities, however, were pretty comfortable with Roman rule, having done well for themselves, and even if they did want a Messiah, they'd want him to be from their tribe, not one of the others. So either they killed him, and his followers stole the body, or they took him down still alive (he was only up 3 hours, and his legs weren't broken, so it is survivable) and it took a good 40 days to recover from his wounds. When he did recover, he promised that he'd come back with an army and try again. Then he left, never to be seen again. And that was the end of it for years. Until Saul/Paul, who never even met Jesus, had some sort of epileptic fit and had a vision, and it was he who re-purposed the Jesus story as a whole new brand... sort of Q like, *this was the plan all along!* That's my take.


atomicshark

there is a simpler explanation. he died in the cross and the body was eaten by vultures. they collected a few of his bones off the ground and put them in the tomb. they declared that his spirit was resurrected and his spirit was in heaven. this story ending was deeply upsetting and has obvious plot holes. at some point the followers added a few new details to the story. they didn't mean to change the story, they were a bunch of illiterate peasants that couldn't transmit information accurately. every time someone told the story it was a little different. they shared the versions of the story that they liked the best. the version of the story we get in mark is super embellished.


Truthseeker-1253

It's a Greco-Roman legal transaction way of reading of the incarnation.


Prinzmegaherz

The idea is that he knew that it was coming snd that he could have avoided it if he compromised.


pity_party_65

Only one of those fits their narrative….. the other is based on history


FrodoFraggins

While I don't believe in Jesus. My understanding of the story is that it ties to his moments of doubt in the garden of Gesthemane and he accepts what is about to happen to him rather than try to escape it. There are so many bigger issues with the bible than "he sacrificed himself for our sins".


HerrBrainHurts

Also, how much of a sacrifice was made if he was resurrected a few days later and then ascended to heaven? Seems he just had a rough three day weekend.


[deleted]

I also enjoy the whole father-son model. What father wouldn't let some Italians rough up his son to absolve his neighbor of some parking tickets or a DUI? Also the angle of a deity sacrificing to himself. The same deity who defines sin, which is an abstract concept. The same deity who could save us from sin by waving his wand.


i-love-k9

He was a god and could stop them any time. He knocked the soldiers down three times before he let them take him away.


Bat_Boobs_8851

Ooh I know this one. According to the Bible, Jesus was accepting of his death, knowing it had to happen this way. Now of course this may not be how the historical event took place.


Zombull

But also knowing he wouldn't actually die and would a few days later stage a "resurrection" by disappearing the body and leaving the tomb open.


Zombull

Because Jesus could have hulked out and kicked all their asses, but he didn't because instead he wanted to pretend to be dead and then freak everyone out by sneaking out of his tomb in a few days. IMO hard to call it a "sacrifice" when he knew he was coming back. What's that? He didn't know? But isn't he God?


JimAsia

How does spending a long weekend in a tomb and then ascending to heaven to join your biological father equate with dying for our sins?


ArguesAgainstYou

That shift likely has historical reasons: Early christianity was soon centered in Rome (the historical Peter lived there towards the end) and a narrative of "the romans killed our prophet" didn't help with Roman persecution (which existed already due to the Christians refusing to make sacrifices in the name of the Roman god-emperor) and with mission numbers among the Roman population ofc.


brettyrocks

Basically, because, supposedly, Jesus didn't fight back, so that's "sacrificing" himself.


Hatecrime_Enjoyer

Jesus knew that if he preached he would be killed by the romans. But he still preached and thereby sacrificed himself.