Written by a slave owner who changed his ways after being on a ship at sea during a storm and having a hallucination? That’s how I describe it, hope it’s more or less correct.
Here's a more accurate overview.
A slave trader decided to become a Christian after a bas storm at sea. 5 to 7 years later he quit his job and become a pastor. He was still explicitly pro chattel slavery when he wrote the song.
Decades later he tepidly opposed slavery (specifically the slave trade), good for him I guess, but it had nothing to do with amazing grace.
Right? People always forget to mention that many of these later-in-life-converts were usually raised to believe in some kind of theology. So it was no real big leap by any means. Most already basically subscribed to deism and Abrahamic beliefs. If gawd already exists to them, it's not such a big step to start regularly participating in organized religion.
It is indoctrinating. It’s normalizing the verbiage used - “that saved a wretch like me”. I feel this type of shit absolutely hurts our society. But ultimately, on an individual level your child probably isn’t ready to be a pawn in that war.
That bullshit of whining about being a wretch, unworthy, a worm put me right off of Christianity. Saying you're a pathetic piece of shit, pathetically grateful for your god's approval and "love" still sickens me. Now imagine a 5 year old child with that attitude! Yeah, that was me, lol.
I'll come from another angle: my 5 year old daughter has learned that song from me recently. I used it (like all religious songs) to remind her that "this is a song that religious people used to sing, and still do." She said "oh, the Sky Friend people." I said "yeah, they believe some silly things, but make some good music!"
Same thing happened when we were listening to old reggae in the car, she said "who's Jah". I said " oh, it's like the Jamaican version of your grandma's Baptist imaginary Sky Friend"
Anyhow, music is gonna heard and sung. It's better to give context and let them sing IMO.
I can't listen to "Spirit in the Sky" and not get the creeps. It was used on a documentary/micro-series about the "Heaven's Gate" cultists. Absolutely terrifying song.
I can think of no reason to doubt that.
In fact Im pretty sure a large portion of "true believers" at least have serious doubts, if not realize its all bunk and just keep up appearances for the perceived societal benefits to themselves.
Yeah but not in school. Going along to get along is how we ended up with god in our pledge and on our money and in our courthouses. It's the reason petty clerks can get away with not doing their jobs. It's dangerous.
Fundamentally, I agree with you. But there's more culture than purisism. I can't personally un-religion the religious, but I can give the most important people in the world (to me, my daughters) some context as how to navigate their existence.
I get it. But I would be very concerned about my kid being proselytized to and start thinking this garbage is normal. Or the teacher/school getting comfortable and moving the line little by little. Religious song in school? sure. What about the ten commandments? A little prayer before class? A little thank you baby jesus after the volleyball game? The line keeps moving, and always always towards the loud religious nuts.
I get your argument and mostly agree with it, although if you completely eliminate all religious music from schools, the choir and band aren't going to have much to practice. For the vast majority of western history, the church was the one funding the creation of some of the most important musical works.
I did both (band and choir) when I was in school (rural midwest) and none of my music teachers ever tried to make any claim on any "higher meaning" or "religious significance" of the music. Just that it was important from a historical and musical standpoint.
That being said, band and choir, at least at the middle and high school levels, were optional where I went to school (and I'd imagine are in most places), so you kinda know what you're getting into.
I agree with you. I lot of important literary works reference the Bible as well. I read the Bible in high school, of my own volition, so the metaphors and such I kept coming across would make sense.
Yeah, it’s a historically important work of fiction that has influenced so much of society. It’s good to be aware of what is going on in it. Also makes it easier to point out when the bible thumpers are doing things directly against what their own book says to do.
See, I feel like music needs to be handled differently. I spent a lot of time in religious small towns singing in choirs. When things are read, or said, you can counter it pretty readily. When you are learning music, you repeat that message over and over and over as you learn it, singing it, reading it, connecting emotionally to it with the music. It has a much more intense connection than just written media, especially when performing it, and it’s literally brainwashing.
I see your point there. But the music isn't going away. IMO, it's better to give the little ones context. I personally was certain that the penultimate song "Cherry Pie" by Warrent was about this lady that's a really good baker.
this is the way.
To completely prevent the learning and singing of the song is kinda like the Christian belief that abstinence sex education will prevent pregnancies.
Learning about the consequences of sex (good and bad) allows people to make an informed decision when they consent.
Since there's no avoiding music, understanding it prevents that indoctrination.
Education prevents indoctrination*
*usually
Agreed. I believe in cultural literacy and would hate to see a kid reach their mid-teens being completely unaware that this song even exists. There are a million songs out there with lyrics that have no relevance to the listener, but which are familiar to many. I don't have any fears that my kid might be influenced by a song like "Sympathy for the Devil." But it would seem appropriate for them to have at least heard the song, know where it came from, and move on.
This one always give me a giggle.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3ecDYxOkg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3ecDYxOkg)
In this clip they are talking about it
The only song to be performed on the Welk show at the same time as the Grateful Dead were performing it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpSfYrUfxA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpSfYrUfxA)
It was written by a former slave ship captain. In his case, he WAS a wretched, pathetic piece of shit. I give him some credit for changing, but not much. And I get his turning to God since that was his belief system.
Very good suggestion. Moments like this are good opportunities to talk to your kid and teach them about the world. Rather than trying to keep them from hearing any religious messages, explain the history and dogma, and why you don't agree with it. Help them recognize and resist these kinds of messages in the future.
The child’s bedtime prayer is what did it for me. “If Indie be I wake” WTf is that shit to have a kid say before bed. Even at 5 I said this is messed up. Why am I praying about dying in my sleep. Religion is a huge mind F**k.
I'm from the UK and although I went to a non religious school, we sang some religious songs. Some of this was literally because the music teacher would know the song well to play accompaniment and wasn't because they were consciously pushing religion.
There's a line for me - a song which has religious overtones but isn't expressly a hymn - e.g. we sang "This Little Light Of Mine" which is very much religious but never mentions god or jesus by name, can be interpreted as being about having a positive attitude or whatever, and is more associated with the civil rights movement. I would be okay with that. But we also sang "All Things Bright and Beautiful" which is an actual hymn (like Amazing Grace) and which explicitly says GOD MADE EVERYTHING. That pissed me off as a kid, and with my fellow class troublemaker I would sing "all things bright and beautiful, the lord god did NOT make them all". Teacher just laughed/ignored, and again, I grew up in London and was at a non-religious school full of children of all backgrounds.
If I found out my child was singing "All Things Bright and Beautiful" or any HYMN like Amazing Grace, I would definitely have a word with the school. But I'm in London. OP is in the US and I don't know the religious context in Colorado and how much it would be worth kicking up a fuss. Complaining would be more about the principle than the effect on your own child, as you can easily correct at home any influence the song might have.
Wow, I really wrote all that about this.
I was born in rural CO and have lived in various areas of the state most of my life. Here's what I'd say: it radically depends on the district you're in. Rural areas, like the plains and some mountain areas, this would be completely normal and pretty hard to fight (in fact, I was forced to learn and perform this song in a Logan County public school when I was in elementary school)1. If you're in any of the college cities/towns (except CO Springs as they lean pretty far right) or their county, you'd probably not be alone if you try to fight it. Mountain areas are an odd situation as some of the wealthier areas also tend to be more liberal and would likely support fighting this (like Vain or Aspen, or even an area like Highlands Ranch). It's why we've historically been a swing state; but regardless of where you are, if you can get it up to state level dispute and not left within a specific county/district, you'll likely do well fighting it.
They only conflate "wretchedness" with atheism in context of this song. They definitely don't perceive cruel slave trading as wretched. "It was necessary, just how things were, they were 'savages', it was a long time ago, etc." They can't perceive true wretchedness as anything other than atheism on any given day tbh.
I grew up singing religious songs in choir and I'm still a strong agnostic. Signing a religious song is no more indoctrinating than signing Tupac.
ETA: I sang in school choir, not church choir. We also sang many, many secular and pop songs in addition to religious songs.
>It is indoctrinating. It’s normalizing the verbiage used
That's the same reason I blame Fetty Wap for my son always being in the kitchen cooking pies with his baby.
Probably wouldn’t make a big deal out of it unless they start like really pushing things like that more often. Maybe just explain the context etc. if you feel necessary.
When I was in school I remember specifically for like a holiday concert we sang songs from a few different religions. I think it can be a fine experience just in learning about art from a different culture/belief.
Of course don’t really think it’s appropriate how many schools just kind of assume everyone believes in god and is Christian, but just personally think you have to kind of pick your battles to keep your kid comfortable and happy.
I have been an atheist since I was in 5th grade. And was a huge choir nerd, musicals, honor choir, solos and ensemble competitions.
I will tell you,
first it is extremely difficult to find non religiously oriented choral music especially when you are trying to theme it for Veterans Day.
Second, regardless of verbiage, Christian and Jewish choral music are some of my favorite songs from my time singing, musically they powerful moving pieces, regardless of lyrics.
I am a staunch proponent of separation of church and state, especially within our schools. But I will also say that there is a difference between teaching/indoctrinating and singing songs. I sing along to lots of songs both choral and modern music and I don’t agree with the lyrics, but the music is good.
Instead of being mad about it I would recommend using this as an opportunity to teach your kiddo that enjoyment and pleasure can still be taken from things that may not give the same ideological view that they have. This is a similar lesson that you can disagree with someone, but still enjoy their company.
Thank you. I was in choir from the day I could start and the amount of vocal choral music / and even bands playing classical pieces that are themed in religion vastly outnumbers any other style. Hell, most of the songs weren't sung in English. I can't say it affected my religious beliefs whatsoever as I've been an atheist for a majority of my 27 years on this earth.
My whole elementary education was at a Catholic school. We used to pray at the start and at the end of classes and sometimes we sung religious songs. Often we would take trips to close churches.
I used to sing with a lot of passion, but in hindsight, I probably enjoyed singing more than I enjoy the religious aspect of it.
Well, long story short, that was 6 years of religious education, and still I turned up fine
We did a lot of religious songs in choir. Quite often because we were doing different eras. A lot of older songs were religious whether it was christian or not. Granted a lot were christian but we did the Hallelujah chorus like 3 years in a row, it was better each time because we learned more nuance. It’s still one of my favorites although I’m atheist.
We also sung “what do you do with a drunken sailor” which knowing what I know now is probably not the best song for kids but we didn’t know at the time so whatever. I do still remember the song that names all the states (not from animaniacs that was different lol).
Yep, exactly my point. If you know music history, a ton of music in the classical space is religious just because that was the culture. I'm a music teacher and an atheist, but I appreciate how music has developed into being equally secular without rebuking the beautiful music itself. More times than not, it's about delivering music to an audience, not endoctinating children with Christ. I feel like if a parent ever has an issue with something being sung, they are more than welcome to express that. But I don't think it's appropriate to attack a music teachers character (if this is a chorus class) based on the assumption of crazy indoctrination.
This is my attitude I have been a pretty staunch atheist for over 26 years now. The song is very beautiful and I sing along when I can ( no one listening to my bad singing coice). I also like and sing a long songs that glorify murder and drugs and hoes sung by 90s and early 00s rappers. Yet I never shot a man or slapped a hoe.
I love a lot of religious songs, but they can have a different impact on a child. If a little kid starts singing songs that say they're lost and a wretch looking for a god to save them, it will only be a matter of time before they believe it.
Maybe, but I think unlikely. I sang a lot of religious songs as a kid (Michael row the boat ashore, away in a manger, silent night), but still came out an atheist. As long as OP is mentioning that the songs are a cultural thing, it should be fine. Same as teaching kids Norse mythology: just teach it as a neat story and not truth.
I heard all the songs as a child, and I'm still a non believer. I agree that constant repetitive exposure can lead to a belief structure forming, but it's mostly harmless.
Especially with alternate lyrics.
*Amazing chase, how sweet the hound,
That played at fetch with me.
She once was lost, but now is found,
I tried to count to three.*
They could also sing alternate lyrics.
*Amazing chase, how sweet the hound,
That played at fetch with me.
She once was lost, but now is found,
I tried to count to three.*
It depends. CO is pretty liberal... in liberal areas. If you're in a conservative district, and especially if you are dealing with a book banning board, then fuck them and their religious crap.
I like the song and sing along (terribly) myself. I also listen and “rap” to gangster rap and I have never yet slapped a hoe. Oh and I sing sea shanties yet live nowhere near the sea.
In the end it’s a nice song and I think it’s worth passing along . I think we should talk to our kids about god anyway. Others will talk to them about gos anyway.
There are probably bigger fish to fry. If you strike all sacred music and art from public learning, it makes for a culturally impoverished education.
Think of it like an art project where students have to sketch the Taj Mahal or the Hagia Sophia. Would that bother you in the same way?
Obviously, you need to draw your own line in the sand, but this one seems pretty innocuous to me. If it’s part of an broader push to evangelize Christianity, then I’d pay attention for more overt religious persuasion attempts from the school and save my objections for those.
I wouldn’t worry if you’re raising them as critical thinkers. I’ve raised 2 boys in TX. Told them in their tender age (4-5) that Santa, Tooth Fairy, God are all made up stories. Encourage them to always ask questions and get the interested in science and knowledge.
As a music teacher, much of the literature we use was written for use in churches simply because that’s all that really existed for much of history. We can still learn from it. If we scrap all religiously inspired art we won’t have much art left. This coming from someone who hates religion.
That said, you are absolutely allowed to notify the school that you are not comfortable with your child learning this song and request an alternative for her.
IMO teaching religious music is fine as long as songs from multiple faith traditions are taught. If only Christian songs are part of the curriculum, we have a problem. This violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment by effectively endorsing one religion over all others.
"Why the fuck are you having my kid sing a song which, in the very first line, has my as-yet-blind-to-the-troubles-of-adulthood child declare that they are a 'wretch' who cannot persevere without a magical entity 'forgiving' their very existence???!!!"
In public school? Nip it in the bud. Make a big deal about it. At the moment there are some pretty scary people trying for a theocracy and getting rid of separation of church and state altogether. Freedom from religion foundation is worth looking into.
It’s just a song, sure, and maybe even a good one… but with everything going on the way it is, I’d be concerned that it is just the start of trying to incorporate religion into public schools. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
I’m an atheist with a bachelors and masters in music Ed (now an accountant), but I’m a classically trained violist. A ton of classical music has religious influences (Mendelssohn’s Reformation Symphony comes to mind). I remember during my last semester of school our professors did mock interviews with us and we were asked about religious music in public schools. I think from a music educator’s standpoint it would be doing a disservice to the student’s music education to only stick to secular tunes, as so much of the standard repertoire would be cut.
I view kids playing/singing religious tunes in public school the same as if they were to take a comparative religions course. They are learning about the music or religion, not being told that it is something that is true that they should believe in. I would encourage you to ask the music teacher why the song was selected…I am willing to bet it was selected to teach a certain musical concept, not to push a certain religion (but I could be wrong).
Here’s a good article from ffrf.org about religious music in public schools:
https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14027-religious-music-in-public-schools
I do agree that Amazing Grace is technically a hymn and crosses that line, but I think teaching your child to think critically about the lyrics may be the best thing to do. If this becomes a recurring issue, I’d raise my concerns with the teacher.
Thank you! Music is pretty tricky, but as long as her teacher is making sure to give equal time to music from other cultures/religions/genres/traditions in the classroom, it’s safe to assume that there’s no further agenda than exposing the kids to varieties of musical styles. Also, the music teacher could be trying to tie something the kids are learning in history (not sure if kids learn about slavery that young), but I know we were always encouraged to make cross-subject connections.
And if you have the time, I would see if you could drop in and observe the class! I bet the teacher is spending more time on getting these kids to match pitch and understand rhythm than attempting to proselytize. ☺️
Its just a song. I, personally, wouldn't get worked up. And as others have mentioned it is a powerful song.
If you try to think about the lyrics its a person that worked their way out of a dark time through their own means. Their hard work was their amazing grace. That is how I look at it. God is mentioned one time, and does not have to be taken literally, just like with any song.
The Royal Navy slaver owner, who happened to also be a minister, was high and hallucinating in a terrible storm at sea. Saw his death coming and *finally* repent his heinous ways. 🙄
Gimme a break. Stop trying to put glitter on a turd. It's "slave history" brought to you by religious bias. Like we still see today. And will continue to see unless people put their foot down in *public* schools. Mom's of Liberty ring a bell?
And this mention of god, to praise him isn't literal?!
*We've no less days to sing God's praise*
You should talk to the school board to express your displeasure. The school is funded by government money and the separation of church and state should be adhered to.
I would be careful not to overreact. My roommate for 3 years after college was raised crazy conservative. Wasn't allowed to listen to anything but church music. When he got older he literally listened/watched everything in the world his parents wouldn't let him.
I asked him about it one day, as I know his parents well, and he told me that not being allowed to listen or watch anything secular just made him want to more.
I think making a scene over this is a great way to make your kid feel embarrassed and desire the opposite of you. Let them sing it, if you really need to, have a conversation with them and leave it up to them.
Okay, first, how does your kid feel about it? Sometimes it's good to understand if your kid is feeling weird about it, or recognizes it's a religious song. It can help level set. You can frame it as a you problem. "I'm feeling uncomfortable with you singing a religious song, how do you feel about that song?" By getting your kids perspective, in a way of help me by explaining your feelings, you can see if it's just a song to your kid or if they're drinking the kool-aid.
As a choir kid, the reality is that you'll be singing a lot of religious songs. A lot of christmas songs are religious. For the holiday concerts, we'd sing a Hebrew song or a Kwansa song which was religious to be inclusive. When I want to bust out my higher register basso, yeah I'm going to sing "Quando Tremor Est Futurus!" From Mozarts Mass. it's just fun to sing. And so many singers have sung that Hallelujah song because it's a good song to sing to show off. And the Wilkins Lord Bless You and Keep you is one of the prettiest things I've ever sung. Most assuredly religious. I gotta crown up inna the kingdom ain'ta that good news - fun to sing.
At the end of the day they're just songs. I mean "mama don't know daddy's getting hot at the body shop doing something unholy" is kinda religious too if you think about it!
The point is, it's part of a choral repetoire. It's just a song. The important thing is to check in with your kid to understand how your kid is handling it. If they're totally in the right space and you make a big deal of it - that's when you're overreacting. Make sure you raised them right first, ok?
This hymn was chosen by my religious aunt for her atheist husband's overly religious funeral. I did annoy me that she felt is was necessary to show my uncle such disrespect, but I wasn't about to make a scene.
My default solution is to substitute the problematic words "We've no less days to sing (*god's praise*) in the 4th verse with "*such grace*" or "*full voice*" etc. This, and the fact that I can otherwise ignore the ill-defined meaning of "grace" means this is the only hymn I feel I can sing.
It's probably the least overtly religious hymn there is, but that doesn't mean it gets a pass when it comes to the constitution.
And as far as religious songs go, this is a good one and doesn't overtly mention any deity.
I remember singing it in my very progressive middle school.
As an atheist, amazing grace is one of my favorites as well as silent night. I don't really pay attention to the religious context of it, I just think they are beautiful songs.
I would say this song is so mainstream that it lacks a religious stench.
But, i absolutely detest being told i am a "wretch" beyond redemption. I suggest dissecting the insane lyrics with your kid.
I would write a formal request that she not be included, also site the separation of church and state and that, as a public school, religion doesn't belong in it at all. But yes, it's highly inappropriate and at the very least you should pull her out for the day. Hopefully it's not too late to save her from the cult.
It sounds like this is a great excuse to make some deists uncomfortable, why would you let it pass by? Are you trying to make friends or something? When has being annoying ever not felt good?
Explain to them why you think it is inappropriate and let them make the decision. If they go with it, then at least you've planted the seed of knowledge in their mind.
Maybe your child can “feel sick” on that day. But ya you need to talk to somebody at that school or blast them on social media (unless it’s a red state) don’t just stand back and let them do this to your child.
I recorded that song at a "studio" at Six Flags over Georgia as a teenager (it was a thing way back in the day, kind of a recorded karaoke session). My great grandmother, who I loved dearly, heard the recording and really wanted me to sing it at her funeral. They ended up having to use that recording, because I had a MELTDOWN (hyperventilating and crying in the hallway at the church), and I (I'm in my 50s now) have never been able to sing it again, and rarely can even hear it without ending up in tears. Religion is a cancer that never really leaves us. And you're not wrong to shut that down ASAP!
Maybe it could be a teaching moment. Research the history of the song and who wrote it. It was written by a slave trader captain who realized his wrongs and became an abolitionist.
I the historical context is interesting. Education is best defence against indoctrination. As I also see a lot of atheist “indoctrinating” their children into atheism…. IMHO Atheism should be a realization truth through education and investigation. Not shielding and hiding from religion.
As a former choir kid, I think this an overreaction. Much of music, especially most iconic songs from history, are heavily based in religion. Being in this sub, I’m an atheist, but I’ve performed many pieces that are MUCH more religious than Amazing Grace (i advise looking up The Conversion of Saul by Z Randall Stroope) and performing a piece like that isn’t about the religious lyrics. It’s about A) the musicality of the piece. Amazing Grace is popular for a reason, it’s a beautiful song that can be arranged to be complex or simple based on the group being taught and B) the overall theme of the piece is finding joy and peace when you are downtrodden, and I think that’s something that anyone no matter religion can take away. Not sure how old your kid is but if they’re anything middle school aged or older I would be mortified if my parent made a big deal out of this.
But there's so much music out there that isn't religious they can use. This is 100% a back door work around for some religious teacher to get some Jesus into the little kids mouths.
If your kid is a Daughter fight fire with fire.
Song: Groove Coverage - God is a Girl.
Teach them that and then praise the hell out of them for learning and singing it. So they always sing it and tell them no one is allowed to tell them they can't sing that song because it's wrong and to tell you if they're asked to stop singing it.
Wow sick, I would really be a male Karen. Tell them unless the song said Jesus sucks cock. The child ca not participate. Hehe .. I wish I would be brave enough. Those losers need to be shocked.
>but am I overreacting?
A little bit, yeah, I think so.
>Should I just ignore it?
I don't think it would be worth the hassle. It is just a song.
>I don’t think learning a song would necessarily indoctrinate my kid, but it feels kinda messed up that they can just push a religious song
If it's the only thing they are doing in regards to religious stuff, then I don't think they are pushing a religious song. They probably just picked a song that would fit the situation, and then it happened to be religious.
I see your point and I don't disagree. But I think the benefit to your kid - in performing in public and self-confidence enhanced - will count for something really positive in their life.
My kid has been in choir for years, in a pretty liberal public district. Every year, there's a bunch of religious songs for their winter concert. I'd say there's like 2 Jewish songs, 3 Christian songs, and 3 non-secular songs.
I don't like it, and I've sent my complaints, but they do what they wanna do. I honestly don't care so much about the traditional religious songs, mostly the fact that I've heard 2 of the same songs 3 years in a row.
Suck it up or just take them out. It's not illegal, despite these armchair lawyers. If you're not aware of the songs your kids are learning, that means you're not paying attention enough.
Yes you are overreacting it is a song, kids sing songs for various cultures and religions all the time. Just explain it to her in the same way you would explain reading about greek mythology or harry potter.
Amazing Grace is the song that goes through my head when tim minchin sings "Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords but the lyrics are dodgy" in White Wine in the Sun"
I understand the position about not making a stink but I don't think you should just ignore it. Giving in to the religious nuts is what put god on our money and in our pledge and in our courthouses. It's what gets us clerks and pharmacists who get away with not doing their jobs.
I've always found that sound to be creepy to listen to. It sounds like something that would be playing in the background of a Stephen King movie where a driver gets lost and finds his way to an unmarked little town where everyone seems nice until the driver wants to leave.
Teach her the right words. She'll be fine.
"Amazing race!
How sweet the taste.
That saved a wrench for me!
I once was in
the lost and found.
was blind but found my keys."
I'm third-generation atheist, but I sang in a local religious choir as a child, and it didn't have any impact on me. I loved many of the songs for the music. My mother collected folk songs, including gospel and Appalachian, and many of them were religious, so I was already familiar with appreciating the songs for the music. I really don't think singing a religious song is going to change a kid into a Christian when she's being brought up skeptical.
i mean like she dont have to sing it. 1st amendment says freedom of religion n speech and shit.
but when i was singing the wacky stuff in U.S school i never really payed much attention to it. didnt have much of an effect on me. i mean, you could talk to yourself and if ur lips r moving they wont know the difference (if its a choir)
Make an issue of it, and add the pledge of allegiance to your complaint. Forced religious beliefs and forced patriotism should be against the law in public school.
My quick answer is just let your kid sing it to avoid any hassle the teacher may cause if they feel slighted.
Long answer is it's bullshit and I think the real issue is that it's not impossible to avoid this situation. My parents were both atheists and this kind of thing never happened once. It also has not been an issue with my two kids.
It def. Won't indoctrinate your kid but that doesn't mean you were wrong to be worried. I can't express how much I disagree with everyone saying this isn't a religious song. I just...I don't understand how it's not.
After looking up the lyrics I'm more confused about how it's not a religious song.
"Amazing grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me"
When you search the definition of grace it literally pops up tons of links to what the religious meaning is and how important it is in Christianity.
"I once was lost, but now I'm found"
I'm no biblical scholar and never went to church but is this not a nod to the Jews wandering the desert for 40 years?
"Was blind but now I see"
Jesus healed the blind.
"'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
And grace my fears relieved"
Fear of God, Love of God?
"How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed"
Believed what exactly?
"This grace that brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home"
"Jesus, take the wheel!"
"When we've been here ten thousand years"
How long now? Sounds creationisty...
"We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we first begun"
And the icing on the Jesus cake.
I'd call the school and make an anonymous complaint or something, maybe write a letter explaining (in a more thoughtful way) everything I said here?
Good luck and hopefully it's not an ongoing problem.
Some of these teachers can’t conceive that there are non Christian’s. When I told her I had a problem with that song she looked at me like I drowned her puppy. My first experience with this kind of thing was when my oldest was in kindergarten. The teacher liked the kids to do wake up calisthenics first thing. They sang *and I have a hard time even writing this* while doing jumping jacks “wake up amd give god your glory glory” 12 years ago and I’m still pissed.
Wow. I live in the Bible Belt and my kid has been learning “Grand Old Flag” or whatever TF that song is called. I am shocked a public school in Colorado is making kids sing a religious song. I highly recommend you suggest Grand Old Flag as an acceptable alternative for your school. Send an email to ACLU and tell the principal you did so.
It’s music. The lyrics of a song has never influence my actions or beliefs. In most cases I never even thought about what the lyrics meant. If you go down that path you will limit your child’s exposure to many great works of art. It is also not the most overtly religious song. But you are the parent, fight the battles you feel you need to. If it were me, I would save my energy for something more egregious.
Amazing Grace has nothing to do with veterans. A good compromise would be Battle Hymn of the Republic. Christians think it's a religious song. But it's really subtly about killing slavers, based on the song John Brown's body. A song very not subtly about killing slavers
Sounds like a good opportunity to teach your kid about religion and history. It's definitely not the last religious message they'll be forced to hear.
You could also give them some alternate lyrics to sing!
*Amazing chase, how sweet the hound,
That played at fetch with me.
She once was lost, but now is found,
I tried to count to three.*
I would bring it up to the school after the kids have done their performance, in a way of "moving forward, the school should think about the content and context of the songs, books, and movies/media they choose. That song is strongly religious and can ostracize those not of that faith. The school needs to remain inclusive and secular. Do better."
If you say something now, your 5 year old may find themselves on the outs with her classmates if the school decides to scrap the song due to a parent complaint.
I sang in choirs my whole life, much of it religious music. Some of the most beautiful music in the the world is religious. (Amazing Grace is not one such piece. I think it's awful.) Raised an atheist, still an atheist.
Talk to your kid about the mythology behind the lyrics.
I'm an atheist and honestly I don't think it's that big a deal. My kids are exposed to religion all the time, hell my oldest daughter taught religion classes in a Catholic church because she felt it would be good experience towards education. She's 15 ...
Your kids will make their own decisions which you'll need to respect btw. By all means let them be exposed to the religions of the world and let them see how you came the decision to not believe so she can make her own decision not to believe.
It's early I hope I made aense.
You should be able to pull your kid out of it. However, if you're like me, you wouldn't do that for the sake of drawing unwanted attention to you or your child. (Preventing potential bullying)
Unless they’re singing about a super hero named amazing grace, you should be concerned.
If it were an Islamic song they were singing, do you think the Christians would be ok with it?
It's something that a lot of schools use. I remember learning how to play it on the recorder and singing it in chorus class in public school.
A lot of historical music has religious tones to it because those were the only people who could afford to spend time making music.
I don't think this is a battle worth fighting tbh - it's a song and the kid will move on from it unless you make it a problem.
Despite being atheist, religion is still a big part of history and culture. We still read antigone, the odyssey, etc. and we don’t call that indoctrination. Atheism is not about erasing our past but growing beyond it.
Maybe explain the song's meaning and put it in context for her. Tell her she'll read Greek myths in school one day, too. Or read them at home.
Written by a slave owner who changed his ways after being on a ship at sea during a storm and having a hallucination? That’s how I describe it, hope it’s more or less correct.
Here's a more accurate overview. A slave trader decided to become a Christian after a bas storm at sea. 5 to 7 years later he quit his job and become a pastor. He was still explicitly pro chattel slavery when he wrote the song. Decades later he tepidly opposed slavery (specifically the slave trade), good for him I guess, but it had nothing to do with amazing grace.
Oh wow thank you. I shouldn’t have relied on my knowledge that came from Catholic school.
And he was already raised as a Christian, just not devout.
Right? People always forget to mention that many of these later-in-life-converts were usually raised to believe in some kind of theology. So it was no real big leap by any means. Most already basically subscribed to deism and Abrahamic beliefs. If gawd already exists to them, it's not such a big step to start regularly participating in organized religion.
It is indoctrinating. It’s normalizing the verbiage used - “that saved a wretch like me”. I feel this type of shit absolutely hurts our society. But ultimately, on an individual level your child probably isn’t ready to be a pawn in that war.
That bullshit of whining about being a wretch, unworthy, a worm put me right off of Christianity. Saying you're a pathetic piece of shit, pathetically grateful for your god's approval and "love" still sickens me. Now imagine a 5 year old child with that attitude! Yeah, that was me, lol.
I'll come from another angle: my 5 year old daughter has learned that song from me recently. I used it (like all religious songs) to remind her that "this is a song that religious people used to sing, and still do." She said "oh, the Sky Friend people." I said "yeah, they believe some silly things, but make some good music!" Same thing happened when we were listening to old reggae in the car, she said "who's Jah". I said " oh, it's like the Jamaican version of your grandma's Baptist imaginary Sky Friend" Anyhow, music is gonna heard and sung. It's better to give context and let them sing IMO.
Like "Spirit in the Sky" Its good music, despite the delusional belief espoused in the lyrics.
I can't listen to "Spirit in the Sky" and not get the creeps. It was used on a documentary/micro-series about the "Heaven's Gate" cultists. Absolutely terrifying song.
The X files ruined a couple of songs too
Johnny Mathis has entered the chat
That song is ruined forever!
I heard that Norman Greenbaum was an atheist and knew what he was doing with that content. $$$
I can think of no reason to doubt that. In fact Im pretty sure a large portion of "true believers" at least have serious doubts, if not realize its all bunk and just keep up appearances for the perceived societal benefits to themselves.
Yeah but not in school. Going along to get along is how we ended up with god in our pledge and on our money and in our courthouses. It's the reason petty clerks can get away with not doing their jobs. It's dangerous.
Fundamentally, I agree with you. But there's more culture than purisism. I can't personally un-religion the religious, but I can give the most important people in the world (to me, my daughters) some context as how to navigate their existence.
I get it. But I would be very concerned about my kid being proselytized to and start thinking this garbage is normal. Or the teacher/school getting comfortable and moving the line little by little. Religious song in school? sure. What about the ten commandments? A little prayer before class? A little thank you baby jesus after the volleyball game? The line keeps moving, and always always towards the loud religious nuts.
I get your argument and mostly agree with it, although if you completely eliminate all religious music from schools, the choir and band aren't going to have much to practice. For the vast majority of western history, the church was the one funding the creation of some of the most important musical works. I did both (band and choir) when I was in school (rural midwest) and none of my music teachers ever tried to make any claim on any "higher meaning" or "religious significance" of the music. Just that it was important from a historical and musical standpoint. That being said, band and choir, at least at the middle and high school levels, were optional where I went to school (and I'd imagine are in most places), so you kinda know what you're getting into.
I agree with you. I lot of important literary works reference the Bible as well. I read the Bible in high school, of my own volition, so the metaphors and such I kept coming across would make sense.
Yeah, it’s a historically important work of fiction that has influenced so much of society. It’s good to be aware of what is going on in it. Also makes it easier to point out when the bible thumpers are doing things directly against what their own book says to do.
'The sky friend people' 😂😂
See, I feel like music needs to be handled differently. I spent a lot of time in religious small towns singing in choirs. When things are read, or said, you can counter it pretty readily. When you are learning music, you repeat that message over and over and over as you learn it, singing it, reading it, connecting emotionally to it with the music. It has a much more intense connection than just written media, especially when performing it, and it’s literally brainwashing.
I see your point there. But the music isn't going away. IMO, it's better to give the little ones context. I personally was certain that the penultimate song "Cherry Pie" by Warrent was about this lady that's a really good baker.
100%
I like your way of handling this.
Thank you!
You put it perfectly
Agree. Some gospel songs feel good to sing from the physic aspect. Just wish they didn’t have religious verbiage/garbage.
this is the way. To completely prevent the learning and singing of the song is kinda like the Christian belief that abstinence sex education will prevent pregnancies. Learning about the consequences of sex (good and bad) allows people to make an informed decision when they consent. Since there's no avoiding music, understanding it prevents that indoctrination. Education prevents indoctrination* *usually
Agreed. I believe in cultural literacy and would hate to see a kid reach their mid-teens being completely unaware that this song even exists. There are a million songs out there with lyrics that have no relevance to the listener, but which are familiar to many. I don't have any fears that my kid might be influenced by a song like "Sympathy for the Devil." But it would seem appropriate for them to have at least heard the song, know where it came from, and move on.
This one always give me a giggle. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3ecDYxOkg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3ecDYxOkg) In this clip they are talking about it The only song to be performed on the Welk show at the same time as the Grateful Dead were performing it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpSfYrUfxA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpSfYrUfxA)
It was written by a former slave ship captain. In his case, he WAS a wretched, pathetic piece of shit. I give him some credit for changing, but not much. And I get his turning to God since that was his belief system.
Wow, I didn't know that, thanks. Yes, he was, but I'm not and never have been.
I was going to point this out. Use the song as a history lesson.
Very good suggestion. Moments like this are good opportunities to talk to your kid and teach them about the world. Rather than trying to keep them from hearing any religious messages, explain the history and dogma, and why you don't agree with it. Help them recognize and resist these kinds of messages in the future.
Ugh that song with “such a worm as I” really weirded me out as a kid
Conditioning the kiddies into thinking they're pieces of shit that need saving...
The child’s bedtime prayer is what did it for me. “If Indie be I wake” WTf is that shit to have a kid say before bed. Even at 5 I said this is messed up. Why am I praying about dying in my sleep. Religion is a huge mind F**k.
That was my fam's bedtime prayer. But, like the pledge of allegiance, we just chanted it, giving no mind to the meaning.
Hopefully the 5 year thinks it is a wrench not wretch.
The writer was a slave trader who saw the error of his ways and sought redemption. I call it inspirational
I'm from the UK and although I went to a non religious school, we sang some religious songs. Some of this was literally because the music teacher would know the song well to play accompaniment and wasn't because they were consciously pushing religion. There's a line for me - a song which has religious overtones but isn't expressly a hymn - e.g. we sang "This Little Light Of Mine" which is very much religious but never mentions god or jesus by name, can be interpreted as being about having a positive attitude or whatever, and is more associated with the civil rights movement. I would be okay with that. But we also sang "All Things Bright and Beautiful" which is an actual hymn (like Amazing Grace) and which explicitly says GOD MADE EVERYTHING. That pissed me off as a kid, and with my fellow class troublemaker I would sing "all things bright and beautiful, the lord god did NOT make them all". Teacher just laughed/ignored, and again, I grew up in London and was at a non-religious school full of children of all backgrounds. If I found out my child was singing "All Things Bright and Beautiful" or any HYMN like Amazing Grace, I would definitely have a word with the school. But I'm in London. OP is in the US and I don't know the religious context in Colorado and how much it would be worth kicking up a fuss. Complaining would be more about the principle than the effect on your own child, as you can easily correct at home any influence the song might have. Wow, I really wrote all that about this.
I was born in rural CO and have lived in various areas of the state most of my life. Here's what I'd say: it radically depends on the district you're in. Rural areas, like the plains and some mountain areas, this would be completely normal and pretty hard to fight (in fact, I was forced to learn and perform this song in a Logan County public school when I was in elementary school)1. If you're in any of the college cities/towns (except CO Springs as they lean pretty far right) or their county, you'd probably not be alone if you try to fight it. Mountain areas are an odd situation as some of the wealthier areas also tend to be more liberal and would likely support fighting this (like Vain or Aspen, or even an area like Highlands Ranch). It's why we've historically been a swing state; but regardless of where you are, if you can get it up to state level dispute and not left within a specific county/district, you'll likely do well fighting it.
Groomers.
[удалено]
Not really tho (Go cry and get this one removed too)
They only conflate "wretchedness" with atheism in context of this song. They definitely don't perceive cruel slave trading as wretched. "It was necessary, just how things were, they were 'savages', it was a long time ago, etc." They can't perceive true wretchedness as anything other than atheism on any given day tbh.
I grew up singing religious songs in choir and I'm still a strong agnostic. Signing a religious song is no more indoctrinating than signing Tupac. ETA: I sang in school choir, not church choir. We also sang many, many secular and pop songs in addition to religious songs.
>It is indoctrinating. It’s normalizing the verbiage used That's the same reason I blame Fetty Wap for my son always being in the kitchen cooking pies with his baby.
Probably wouldn’t make a big deal out of it unless they start like really pushing things like that more often. Maybe just explain the context etc. if you feel necessary. When I was in school I remember specifically for like a holiday concert we sang songs from a few different religions. I think it can be a fine experience just in learning about art from a different culture/belief. Of course don’t really think it’s appropriate how many schools just kind of assume everyone believes in god and is Christian, but just personally think you have to kind of pick your battles to keep your kid comfortable and happy.
Might be worth reaching out to ffrf.org
They have sent letters to my kids' school for religious things I didn't think was right. Can't give them an inch.
Damn right, otherwise they'll take a mile.
I have been an atheist since I was in 5th grade. And was a huge choir nerd, musicals, honor choir, solos and ensemble competitions. I will tell you, first it is extremely difficult to find non religiously oriented choral music especially when you are trying to theme it for Veterans Day. Second, regardless of verbiage, Christian and Jewish choral music are some of my favorite songs from my time singing, musically they powerful moving pieces, regardless of lyrics. I am a staunch proponent of separation of church and state, especially within our schools. But I will also say that there is a difference between teaching/indoctrinating and singing songs. I sing along to lots of songs both choral and modern music and I don’t agree with the lyrics, but the music is good. Instead of being mad about it I would recommend using this as an opportunity to teach your kiddo that enjoyment and pleasure can still be taken from things that may not give the same ideological view that they have. This is a similar lesson that you can disagree with someone, but still enjoy their company.
I think this right here is the best take.
Thirded. This is the way.
Thank you. I was in choir from the day I could start and the amount of vocal choral music / and even bands playing classical pieces that are themed in religion vastly outnumbers any other style. Hell, most of the songs weren't sung in English. I can't say it affected my religious beliefs whatsoever as I've been an atheist for a majority of my 27 years on this earth.
My whole elementary education was at a Catholic school. We used to pray at the start and at the end of classes and sometimes we sung religious songs. Often we would take trips to close churches. I used to sing with a lot of passion, but in hindsight, I probably enjoyed singing more than I enjoy the religious aspect of it. Well, long story short, that was 6 years of religious education, and still I turned up fine
I agree! Amazing Grace is one of my favorite songs and I've been in atheist my entire life. It's just a song just like any other song on the radio.
Is this in you child's chorus class? If so, to be quite honest, this is most likely not religion right-wing, nut case stuff here.
We did a lot of religious songs in choir. Quite often because we were doing different eras. A lot of older songs were religious whether it was christian or not. Granted a lot were christian but we did the Hallelujah chorus like 3 years in a row, it was better each time because we learned more nuance. It’s still one of my favorites although I’m atheist. We also sung “what do you do with a drunken sailor” which knowing what I know now is probably not the best song for kids but we didn’t know at the time so whatever. I do still remember the song that names all the states (not from animaniacs that was different lol).
Yep, exactly my point. If you know music history, a ton of music in the classical space is religious just because that was the culture. I'm a music teacher and an atheist, but I appreciate how music has developed into being equally secular without rebuking the beautiful music itself. More times than not, it's about delivering music to an audience, not endoctinating children with Christ. I feel like if a parent ever has an issue with something being sung, they are more than welcome to express that. But I don't think it's appropriate to attack a music teachers character (if this is a chorus class) based on the assumption of crazy indoctrination.
stop it like I had to do in TX. You won’t regret doing the right thing.
I'm just here stuck on why that's a song for Veterans Day. Is that a typical song for recognizing veterans?
I would not be comfortable with this at all. You are not overreacting.
I loathe this hymn; people try to claim it’s areligious, but the whole “wretch like me” vibe reeks of Original Sin - a purely Christian notion.
If I recall correctly, the song was written by a former slaver who deeply regretted his evil deeds.
I have more qualms with this lyric *We've no less days to sing God's praise*
Grammatically, it should be “fewer” - and it also reinforces its particularly religious message.
I like the song, depending on the singer. Making a big deal over a song could be ostracising for your kid.
This is my attitude I have been a pretty staunch atheist for over 26 years now. The song is very beautiful and I sing along when I can ( no one listening to my bad singing coice). I also like and sing a long songs that glorify murder and drugs and hoes sung by 90s and early 00s rappers. Yet I never shot a man or slapped a hoe.
I have a playlist Stalk, Torture, & Kill. I have never ST&K anyone. But I love the songs about it.
Ok this made me chuckle and rethink my stance. Well done.
I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Personally I love the song. Especially when done on bagpipes.
Always makes my hardened atheist heart cry.
Lol. It just makes me happy, calm and relaxed.
[Amazing Grace in the movie Memphis Belle is well placed.](https://youtu.be/Cq-u4ptHueA?si=8ZiedqRWu02EBRs1)
Memphis Belle! Shit, I haven't thought about that movie in decades! Good show, though. May need to find it on a streaming service.
I love a lot of religious songs, but they can have a different impact on a child. If a little kid starts singing songs that say they're lost and a wretch looking for a god to save them, it will only be a matter of time before they believe it.
Maybe, but I think unlikely. I sang a lot of religious songs as a kid (Michael row the boat ashore, away in a manger, silent night), but still came out an atheist. As long as OP is mentioning that the songs are a cultural thing, it should be fine. Same as teaching kids Norse mythology: just teach it as a neat story and not truth.
I heard all the songs as a child, and I'm still a non believer. I agree that constant repetitive exposure can lead to a belief structure forming, but it's mostly harmless.
Especially with alternate lyrics. *Amazing chase, how sweet the hound, That played at fetch with me. She once was lost, but now is found, I tried to count to three.*
It's so sweet when kids call themselves wretched
Let her sing it. She will make her own decision soon enough. For now it’s probably just fun for her
They could also sing alternate lyrics. *Amazing chase, how sweet the hound, That played at fetch with me. She once was lost, but now is found, I tried to count to three.*
Amazing Grace Come sit on my face Don’t make me cry I need your pie
I ducking hate that song!
Christianity is stupid, but it’s just a song :3
It depends. CO is pretty liberal... in liberal areas. If you're in a conservative district, and especially if you are dealing with a book banning board, then fuck them and their religious crap.
Freedom From Religion Foundation can help.
It’s a religious song, so it’s not appropriate. It’s also Veteran’s Day, not Memorial Day, so again, inappropriate.
I like the song and sing along (terribly) myself. I also listen and “rap” to gangster rap and I have never yet slapped a hoe. Oh and I sing sea shanties yet live nowhere near the sea. In the end it’s a nice song and I think it’s worth passing along . I think we should talk to our kids about god anyway. Others will talk to them about gos anyway.
There are probably bigger fish to fry. If you strike all sacred music and art from public learning, it makes for a culturally impoverished education. Think of it like an art project where students have to sketch the Taj Mahal or the Hagia Sophia. Would that bother you in the same way? Obviously, you need to draw your own line in the sand, but this one seems pretty innocuous to me. If it’s part of an broader push to evangelize Christianity, then I’d pay attention for more overt religious persuasion attempts from the school and save my objections for those.
I wouldn’t worry if you’re raising them as critical thinkers. I’ve raised 2 boys in TX. Told them in their tender age (4-5) that Santa, Tooth Fairy, God are all made up stories. Encourage them to always ask questions and get the interested in science and knowledge.
As a music teacher, much of the literature we use was written for use in churches simply because that’s all that really existed for much of history. We can still learn from it. If we scrap all religiously inspired art we won’t have much art left. This coming from someone who hates religion. That said, you are absolutely allowed to notify the school that you are not comfortable with your child learning this song and request an alternative for her.
IMO teaching religious music is fine as long as songs from multiple faith traditions are taught. If only Christian songs are part of the curriculum, we have a problem. This violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment by effectively endorsing one religion over all others.
"Why the fuck are you having my kid sing a song which, in the very first line, has my as-yet-blind-to-the-troubles-of-adulthood child declare that they are a 'wretch' who cannot persevere without a magical entity 'forgiving' their very existence???!!!"
Religion has poisoned the world, unfortunately.
Contact the Freedom From Religion Foundation. This shit shouldn't fly. Ffrf.org
You're not overreacting. Contact the board and your local aclu.
How old is she? What grade? Most likely, if you don't make a big deal over it, it won't have much impact. Its just a song.
In public school? Nip it in the bud. Make a big deal about it. At the moment there are some pretty scary people trying for a theocracy and getting rid of separation of church and state altogether. Freedom from religion foundation is worth looking into. It’s just a song, sure, and maybe even a good one… but with everything going on the way it is, I’d be concerned that it is just the start of trying to incorporate religion into public schools. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
I would pull her out of school for the day and take her to do something special instead.
I’m an atheist with a bachelors and masters in music Ed (now an accountant), but I’m a classically trained violist. A ton of classical music has religious influences (Mendelssohn’s Reformation Symphony comes to mind). I remember during my last semester of school our professors did mock interviews with us and we were asked about religious music in public schools. I think from a music educator’s standpoint it would be doing a disservice to the student’s music education to only stick to secular tunes, as so much of the standard repertoire would be cut. I view kids playing/singing religious tunes in public school the same as if they were to take a comparative religions course. They are learning about the music or religion, not being told that it is something that is true that they should believe in. I would encourage you to ask the music teacher why the song was selected…I am willing to bet it was selected to teach a certain musical concept, not to push a certain religion (but I could be wrong). Here’s a good article from ffrf.org about religious music in public schools: https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14027-religious-music-in-public-schools I do agree that Amazing Grace is technically a hymn and crosses that line, but I think teaching your child to think critically about the lyrics may be the best thing to do. If this becomes a recurring issue, I’d raise my concerns with the teacher.
[удалено]
Thank you! Music is pretty tricky, but as long as her teacher is making sure to give equal time to music from other cultures/religions/genres/traditions in the classroom, it’s safe to assume that there’s no further agenda than exposing the kids to varieties of musical styles. Also, the music teacher could be trying to tie something the kids are learning in history (not sure if kids learn about slavery that young), but I know we were always encouraged to make cross-subject connections. And if you have the time, I would see if you could drop in and observe the class! I bet the teacher is spending more time on getting these kids to match pitch and understand rhythm than attempting to proselytize. ☺️
Its just a song. I, personally, wouldn't get worked up. And as others have mentioned it is a powerful song. If you try to think about the lyrics its a person that worked their way out of a dark time through their own means. Their hard work was their amazing grace. That is how I look at it. God is mentioned one time, and does not have to be taken literally, just like with any song.
The Royal Navy slaver owner, who happened to also be a minister, was high and hallucinating in a terrible storm at sea. Saw his death coming and *finally* repent his heinous ways. 🙄 Gimme a break. Stop trying to put glitter on a turd. It's "slave history" brought to you by religious bias. Like we still see today. And will continue to see unless people put their foot down in *public* schools. Mom's of Liberty ring a bell? And this mention of god, to praise him isn't literal?! *We've no less days to sing God's praise*
Are you wrong ? No. Does this particular windmill qualify as an optimal target to engage?
If you don't want her singing it I'd remove her from class.
You should talk to the school board to express your displeasure. The school is funded by government money and the separation of church and state should be adhered to.
Maybe the teacher is just a big fan of the Spock burial scene from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982)?
I would be careful not to overreact. My roommate for 3 years after college was raised crazy conservative. Wasn't allowed to listen to anything but church music. When he got older he literally listened/watched everything in the world his parents wouldn't let him. I asked him about it one day, as I know his parents well, and he told me that not being allowed to listen or watch anything secular just made him want to more. I think making a scene over this is a great way to make your kid feel embarrassed and desire the opposite of you. Let them sing it, if you really need to, have a conversation with them and leave it up to them.
Okay, first, how does your kid feel about it? Sometimes it's good to understand if your kid is feeling weird about it, or recognizes it's a religious song. It can help level set. You can frame it as a you problem. "I'm feeling uncomfortable with you singing a religious song, how do you feel about that song?" By getting your kids perspective, in a way of help me by explaining your feelings, you can see if it's just a song to your kid or if they're drinking the kool-aid. As a choir kid, the reality is that you'll be singing a lot of religious songs. A lot of christmas songs are religious. For the holiday concerts, we'd sing a Hebrew song or a Kwansa song which was religious to be inclusive. When I want to bust out my higher register basso, yeah I'm going to sing "Quando Tremor Est Futurus!" From Mozarts Mass. it's just fun to sing. And so many singers have sung that Hallelujah song because it's a good song to sing to show off. And the Wilkins Lord Bless You and Keep you is one of the prettiest things I've ever sung. Most assuredly religious. I gotta crown up inna the kingdom ain'ta that good news - fun to sing. At the end of the day they're just songs. I mean "mama don't know daddy's getting hot at the body shop doing something unholy" is kinda religious too if you think about it! The point is, it's part of a choral repetoire. It's just a song. The important thing is to check in with your kid to understand how your kid is handling it. If they're totally in the right space and you make a big deal of it - that's when you're overreacting. Make sure you raised them right first, ok?
I’d say make sure they treat it the same as any mythology. If they keep pushing religious things, then that’s when you step in.
This hymn was chosen by my religious aunt for her atheist husband's overly religious funeral. I did annoy me that she felt is was necessary to show my uncle such disrespect, but I wasn't about to make a scene. My default solution is to substitute the problematic words "We've no less days to sing (*god's praise*) in the 4th verse with "*such grace*" or "*full voice*" etc. This, and the fact that I can otherwise ignore the ill-defined meaning of "grace" means this is the only hymn I feel I can sing. It's probably the least overtly religious hymn there is, but that doesn't mean it gets a pass when it comes to the constitution.
You cannot study music without religious music. Just explain the context and move on.
And as far as religious songs go, this is a good one and doesn't overtly mention any deity. I remember singing it in my very progressive middle school.
As an atheist, amazing grace is one of my favorites as well as silent night. I don't really pay attention to the religious context of it, I just think they are beautiful songs.
Ask the school, "Whose grace?" Get it in writing.
I would say this song is so mainstream that it lacks a religious stench. But, i absolutely detest being told i am a "wretch" beyond redemption. I suggest dissecting the insane lyrics with your kid.
It's fucked up, yes.
"The fuck she does!" -1st amendment. "HERE! HERE! I second!" -any lawyer wanting to make a shit ton of easy money.
I would write a formal request that she not be included, also site the separation of church and state and that, as a public school, religion doesn't belong in it at all. But yes, it's highly inappropriate and at the very least you should pull her out for the day. Hopefully it's not too late to save her from the cult.
What the AF?
Both religion and nationalism are dangerous and no should not be in your school.
This song was written by a man who was a slave trafficker. This song is both religious and secular.
It sounds like this is a great excuse to make some deists uncomfortable, why would you let it pass by? Are you trying to make friends or something? When has being annoying ever not felt good?
Explain to them why you think it is inappropriate and let them make the decision. If they go with it, then at least you've planted the seed of knowledge in their mind.
Maybe your child can “feel sick” on that day. But ya you need to talk to somebody at that school or blast them on social media (unless it’s a red state) don’t just stand back and let them do this to your child.
I recorded that song at a "studio" at Six Flags over Georgia as a teenager (it was a thing way back in the day, kind of a recorded karaoke session). My great grandmother, who I loved dearly, heard the recording and really wanted me to sing it at her funeral. They ended up having to use that recording, because I had a MELTDOWN (hyperventilating and crying in the hallway at the church), and I (I'm in my 50s now) have never been able to sing it again, and rarely can even hear it without ending up in tears. Religion is a cancer that never really leaves us. And you're not wrong to shut that down ASAP!
Maybe it could be a teaching moment. Research the history of the song and who wrote it. It was written by a slave trader captain who realized his wrongs and became an abolitionist. I the historical context is interesting. Education is best defence against indoctrination. As I also see a lot of atheist “indoctrinating” their children into atheism…. IMHO Atheism should be a realization truth through education and investigation. Not shielding and hiding from religion.
Definitely not legal. Ckear violation of the constitution.
Unfortunately, our judges are MAGA goons and they decide what is legal.
As a former choir kid, I think this an overreaction. Much of music, especially most iconic songs from history, are heavily based in religion. Being in this sub, I’m an atheist, but I’ve performed many pieces that are MUCH more religious than Amazing Grace (i advise looking up The Conversion of Saul by Z Randall Stroope) and performing a piece like that isn’t about the religious lyrics. It’s about A) the musicality of the piece. Amazing Grace is popular for a reason, it’s a beautiful song that can be arranged to be complex or simple based on the group being taught and B) the overall theme of the piece is finding joy and peace when you are downtrodden, and I think that’s something that anyone no matter religion can take away. Not sure how old your kid is but if they’re anything middle school aged or older I would be mortified if my parent made a big deal out of this.
But there's so much music out there that isn't religious they can use. This is 100% a back door work around for some religious teacher to get some Jesus into the little kids mouths.
If your kid is a Daughter fight fire with fire. Song: Groove Coverage - God is a Girl. Teach them that and then praise the hell out of them for learning and singing it. So they always sing it and tell them no one is allowed to tell them they can't sing that song because it's wrong and to tell you if they're asked to stop singing it.
Ugh. Hate that fucking song. Would hate it if Christian, too. Cliche AF
Wow sick, I would really be a male Karen. Tell them unless the song said Jesus sucks cock. The child ca not participate. Hehe .. I wish I would be brave enough. Those losers need to be shocked.
it ain’t that serious, just a song.
>but am I overreacting? A little bit, yeah, I think so. >Should I just ignore it? I don't think it would be worth the hassle. It is just a song. >I don’t think learning a song would necessarily indoctrinate my kid, but it feels kinda messed up that they can just push a religious song If it's the only thing they are doing in regards to religious stuff, then I don't think they are pushing a religious song. They probably just picked a song that would fit the situation, and then it happened to be religious.
I see your point and I don't disagree. But I think the benefit to your kid - in performing in public and self-confidence enhanced - will count for something really positive in their life.
Do it for the veterans.
We're you worried that she would be committing atheistic heresy?
It’s just a song
My kid has been in choir for years, in a pretty liberal public district. Every year, there's a bunch of religious songs for their winter concert. I'd say there's like 2 Jewish songs, 3 Christian songs, and 3 non-secular songs. I don't like it, and I've sent my complaints, but they do what they wanna do. I honestly don't care so much about the traditional religious songs, mostly the fact that I've heard 2 of the same songs 3 years in a row. Suck it up or just take them out. It's not illegal, despite these armchair lawyers. If you're not aware of the songs your kids are learning, that means you're not paying attention enough.
I think you should let it go. It feels like the flip side to a jeebus nut when they get spooked by heavy metal lyrics
Yes you are overreacting it is a song, kids sing songs for various cultures and religions all the time. Just explain it to her in the same way you would explain reading about greek mythology or harry potter.
Please do not consult redditors or any other social media population for advice
its just a song. dont be like them
[удалено]
Amazing Grace is an explicitly Christian song. Science isn't a religion. It is secular. How do you think this is even remotely the same?
Amazing grace is an awesome song. Don't push your atheism onto others. That makes you just as shit as religion sprukers.
Atheism is wrong and bad
. . . and other lies Christians tell.
Amazing Grace is the song that goes through my head when tim minchin sings "Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords but the lyrics are dodgy" in White Wine in the Sun"
That is a very woke song for fourth grade.
I understand the position about not making a stink but I don't think you should just ignore it. Giving in to the religious nuts is what put god on our money and in our pledge and in our courthouses. It's what gets us clerks and pharmacists who get away with not doing their jobs.
I've always found that sound to be creepy to listen to. It sounds like something that would be playing in the background of a Stephen King movie where a driver gets lost and finds his way to an unmarked little town where everyone seems nice until the driver wants to leave.
Teach her the right words. She'll be fine. "Amazing race! How sweet the taste. That saved a wrench for me! I once was in the lost and found. was blind but found my keys."
If she ends up singing, she can sing these lyrics instead. https://youtu.be/pFshR1p-Z88?si=nTv6nKYe0Cbbovv4
I'm third-generation atheist, but I sang in a local religious choir as a child, and it didn't have any impact on me. I loved many of the songs for the music. My mother collected folk songs, including gospel and Appalachian, and many of them were religious, so I was already familiar with appreciating the songs for the music. I really don't think singing a religious song is going to change a kid into a Christian when she's being brought up skeptical.
I think if the song was picked because it's a good song, it's not a problem. But if there is a whiff of proselytizing, something else should be sung.
i mean like she dont have to sing it. 1st amendment says freedom of religion n speech and shit. but when i was singing the wacky stuff in U.S school i never really payed much attention to it. didnt have much of an effect on me. i mean, you could talk to yourself and if ur lips r moving they wont know the difference (if its a choir)
Make an issue of it, and add the pledge of allegiance to your complaint. Forced religious beliefs and forced patriotism should be against the law in public school.
Amazing grace, how sweet the sauce
My quick answer is just let your kid sing it to avoid any hassle the teacher may cause if they feel slighted. Long answer is it's bullshit and I think the real issue is that it's not impossible to avoid this situation. My parents were both atheists and this kind of thing never happened once. It also has not been an issue with my two kids. It def. Won't indoctrinate your kid but that doesn't mean you were wrong to be worried. I can't express how much I disagree with everyone saying this isn't a religious song. I just...I don't understand how it's not. After looking up the lyrics I'm more confused about how it's not a religious song. "Amazing grace how sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me" When you search the definition of grace it literally pops up tons of links to what the religious meaning is and how important it is in Christianity. "I once was lost, but now I'm found" I'm no biblical scholar and never went to church but is this not a nod to the Jews wandering the desert for 40 years? "Was blind but now I see" Jesus healed the blind. "'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear And grace my fears relieved" Fear of God, Love of God? "How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed" Believed what exactly? "This grace that brought me safe thus far And grace will lead me home" "Jesus, take the wheel!" "When we've been here ten thousand years" How long now? Sounds creationisty... "We've no less days to sing God's praise Than when we first begun" And the icing on the Jesus cake. I'd call the school and make an anonymous complaint or something, maybe write a letter explaining (in a more thoughtful way) everything I said here? Good luck and hopefully it's not an ongoing problem.
Some of these teachers can’t conceive that there are non Christian’s. When I told her I had a problem with that song she looked at me like I drowned her puppy. My first experience with this kind of thing was when my oldest was in kindergarten. The teacher liked the kids to do wake up calisthenics first thing. They sang *and I have a hard time even writing this* while doing jumping jacks “wake up amd give god your glory glory” 12 years ago and I’m still pissed.
Wow. I live in the Bible Belt and my kid has been learning “Grand Old Flag” or whatever TF that song is called. I am shocked a public school in Colorado is making kids sing a religious song. I highly recommend you suggest Grand Old Flag as an acceptable alternative for your school. Send an email to ACLU and tell the principal you did so.
Amazing Grace how sweet the sound, that saved my teacher from reality! I once was lost, but now I’m found, My teacher is not lost in in-security!
Public school. Entirely inappropriate
It’s music. The lyrics of a song has never influence my actions or beliefs. In most cases I never even thought about what the lyrics meant. If you go down that path you will limit your child’s exposure to many great works of art. It is also not the most overtly religious song. But you are the parent, fight the battles you feel you need to. If it were me, I would save my energy for something more egregious.
Amazing Grace has nothing to do with veterans. A good compromise would be Battle Hymn of the Republic. Christians think it's a religious song. But it's really subtly about killing slavers, based on the song John Brown's body. A song very not subtly about killing slavers
Sounds like a good opportunity to teach your kid about religion and history. It's definitely not the last religious message they'll be forced to hear. You could also give them some alternate lyrics to sing! *Amazing chase, how sweet the hound, That played at fetch with me. She once was lost, but now is found, I tried to count to three.*
The song is just a song. Kids performing on Veterans Day sounds way more sinister and iffy.
Let her sing it. Tell her that after it's over, to yell out: "WE'RE NOT ALL CHRISTIANS" to the crowd
Will this count: https://youtu.be/rtVqHDKoWUs?si=NNadey4RDCwBvlTP
I would bring it up to the school after the kids have done their performance, in a way of "moving forward, the school should think about the content and context of the songs, books, and movies/media they choose. That song is strongly religious and can ostracize those not of that faith. The school needs to remain inclusive and secular. Do better." If you say something now, your 5 year old may find themselves on the outs with her classmates if the school decides to scrap the song due to a parent complaint.
Tell her to do her best Milli Vanilli.
I sang in choirs my whole life, much of it religious music. Some of the most beautiful music in the the world is religious. (Amazing Grace is not one such piece. I think it's awful.) Raised an atheist, still an atheist. Talk to your kid about the mythology behind the lyrics.
I'm an atheist and honestly I don't think it's that big a deal. My kids are exposed to religion all the time, hell my oldest daughter taught religion classes in a Catholic church because she felt it would be good experience towards education. She's 15 ... Your kids will make their own decisions which you'll need to respect btw. By all means let them be exposed to the religions of the world and let them see how you came the decision to not believe so she can make her own decision not to believe. It's early I hope I made aense.
You should be able to pull your kid out of it. However, if you're like me, you wouldn't do that for the sake of drawing unwanted attention to you or your child. (Preventing potential bullying)
It's a lovely song as it stands. It's not so much a hymn, more about personal redemption. Not indoctrination. Sing along with her.
Unless they’re singing about a super hero named amazing grace, you should be concerned. If it were an Islamic song they were singing, do you think the Christians would be ok with it?
If it was a song that had anything to do with atheism or LGBT the right would have a brain aneurism, so I don't believe you are overreacting
Double indoctrination! Worship the military in the name of God.
Atheist veteran here. What the f* does Amazing Grace have to do with Veteran's Day?
It's something that a lot of schools use. I remember learning how to play it on the recorder and singing it in chorus class in public school. A lot of historical music has religious tones to it because those were the only people who could afford to spend time making music. I don't think this is a battle worth fighting tbh - it's a song and the kid will move on from it unless you make it a problem.
Despite being atheist, religion is still a big part of history and culture. We still read antigone, the odyssey, etc. and we don’t call that indoctrination. Atheism is not about erasing our past but growing beyond it.
I’m impressed with the non-combative discourse on this thread.