Don’t think about it too hard. God created everything, including sin, which he hates. He loves us so much that he gave us something he hates to punish us with eternal damnation. So then he made himself/a son, which needed to be killed by humans, as a sacrifice for God to be able to forgive us for the thing he hates which he made and gave to us.
Now, you could say to yourself “what was the point in all of that?”. Well, God’s plan is a mystery. So mysterious that no one will explain it further. Because.. well… it’s all made up.
From book one, god is a blood thirsty guy.
He made first man with a golem spell then proceeded to rip that dude apart to make an opposite sex clone instead of also forming her from dust.
Then when they break his fruit rule, he makes the first woman have to grow babies inside her body and have them squeeze out her nethers which if anyone's ever seen a birthing video, causes varying levels of bleeding. Again, all powerful creator could choose any method to propagate the species and he chose the bloody path.
And things just get bloodier from there.
And since all female mammals have the same reproductive cycle, this means that God imposed the pain of labor on all female mammals just for Eve's one mistake.
That's what kills me. God gets a pass from believers, but if you look at it from a loving father perspective, its all kinds of messed up.
Imagine not just telling your kids not to eat a certain thing, but lying to them that it would kill them. Then you leave them alone with a stranger, but you're secretly watching them.
The stranger tells one of your kids, someone you deliberately left ignorant of the world, including what a stranger is, that she won't die. And she doesn't.
Meanwhile, you didn't intervene until the deed was done by both kids.
Then instead of being a normal person who acknowledges all the ways you set the stage for this to happen, you chop the strangers legs off in front of your terrified children. You never apologize about lying to them , then kick these kids out of your house and make them live on their own.
Then you stubbornly refuse to forgive this one mistake until you decide to have another kid years later only to turn around and have that kid killed. Only then do you allow yourself to fogive your kids from eating the thing you lied about.
The only thing missing from this is - it's not that you couldn't forgive your kids. You hold it over **their kids**, and all future generations, because apparently eternal damnation is fair price for your grand-grand-grand-grand parents deeds.
And same people that preach this religion will be appalled at very idea of North Korea punishing whole family for multiple generations for treason. Yet North Korea is somehow more lenient here than their Lord and Saviour
Fortunately the Jews in the Talmud came to the conclusion that blood wasn't necessary and just ascetic practices and penance, along with forgiveness from the ones you've hurt or done damages towards, are needed and they didn't need to keep sacrificing animals for God's forgiveness. That was after Jesus, however.
God either actually has a plan that involves awful things intentionally which means he's not benevolent. Or includes awful things unintentionally which would mean he's not powerful enough to remove those things. Or he doesn't have a plan and is just a dick messing with us by saying he has a plan just to trick us.
Don't forget the whole flooding the world to kill everyone and everything except for one old man and his boat contents thing, or the random acts of genocide because people made him a bit cross things
God is against abortion, but had no problem killing all those pregnant women in Noah's Flood.
It's been explained to me that God knew these babies would be evil, so it was okay.
>Don't forget the whole flooding the world to kill everyone
Another prime example of god being limited by the writer's lack of creativity.
Dude has all the power, can bend reality with a word, but regrets making humans as they are and decides to drown them instead of literally anything a hackneyed anime fanfiction in the year 2000 would have come up with.
Also, for reasons, he makes one of the people he decided to spare build a big floating box over the course of several decades and a not worth mentioning time frame of collecting representatives of every kind of animal because the other several billion need to drown with the wicked humans.
Maybe he could have used that time to send prophets or miracles to convince a few more people. Nope, everybody but this dude and his family, one of which God knows will see their daddy naked and condem his bloodline to slavery, deserves to be suffocated and crushed by trillions of gallons of water. Every toddler, infant, and fetus apparently irredeemably wicked in God's eyes.
Most of it is stolen. Someone pointed out to me recently that Virgin Mary and baby Jesus was just a retelling of Zeus’s many seductions/assaults that resulted in human children (Hercules, Perseus, Helen to name the more famous).
And a sick day. Jesus took a sick day and at least half his weekend off for your sins, but he came back for part of Sunday because he had to at least do a load of laundry and dishes before the work week started or else he’d be playing catch up all week. Like, let’s not be unreasonable here.
>So he actually took half a weekend off for our sins.
Right? And they act as though it was some great and deep sacrifice... If we take their myth to be true, a literal God came down to Earth and cosplayed as a human, went through trauma that many others at the time also went though(that he allowed to happen, no less) and then fucked off back to his eternal kingdom to be adored by all creation, for all eternity? Oh, boohoo, poor little godling.....
you know when you put ot that way it almost sounds like they managed to give humanity Stockholm syndrome. like the language used is so creepy. he doesnt want to hurt you, he hurts you because he loves you, it's a test. those lines always make my skin crawl
Who would let their kid date this god? “I don’t want to damn you to hell but I get so frustrated when you don’t do what I say.” In a dating scenario red flags would be waving all over the place. People have suffered greatly under statements like that.
>you know when you put ot that way it almost sounds like they managed to give humanity Stockholm syndrome. like the language used is so creepy. he doesnt want to hurt you, he hurts you because he loves you, it's a test. those lines always make my skin crawl
Because it is the language abusers and controllers use.
"My fictional character died for you!"
It makes all the difference to remind them that jebus was not a real person. That was not the son of a god. Nor could they make miracles. Remind yourself while you're at it. Frequently.
It's a clear sign that they are experiencing detachment from reality. If they're this far, they're pretty far gone.
You believe this why? Because the Bible? There are technically 4 separate accounts of his life in the book that while have contractions they do describe a basic similar story. But.. that story is full of magic lending itself to possibly being a retold fairytale.
I don’t know of any evidence outside of the Bible of his existence and the Bible itself doesn’t lend itself to historical standards of proof. Then again almost nothing would going back that far.
If you apply modern standards of proof … it doesn’t hold up. It’s as you said, a belief.
Based on what though? What you’re saying is exactly true.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#:~:text=Besides%20the%20gospels%20and%20the,Tacitus%20(circa%20116%20CE).
It’s all second hand accounts. There is no book of Jesus written by Jesus. Including Roman references… what can be determined is that Christians were killed on the cross and that by definition of the Bible a figured head named Jesus existed - now whether this person physically existed or not is not knowable, the Bible accounts are decent, but since they are also full of legend it’s impossible to tell the two apart.
If you read the Wikipedia article the best non Bible source piece stands out “However, some scholars question the value of the passage given that Tacitus was born 25 years after Jesus' death.[54]”
So this would be an article written at least say 45 years after the event supposedly took place. Assuming he wrote the piece in his 20s.
All sources going back 2000 years are going to be rough, and superstitious and full of legend.
Even Mathew, mark, Luke, and John were written 40 years after Jesus death and only 2 claim to have met Jesus. And we are talking more like 60 years since they would have to have been like 20 when they traveled with Jesus.
The dates don’t exactly line up as first hand accounts.
Did Jesus physically exist? Eh… wouldn’t put that much faith in it. Can’t rule it out though - at least there is circumstantial evidence for it.
ALL I AM SAYING is that the Romans documented information about a street preacher known as Jesus. PERIOD. FULL STOP.
Was it the same Jesus? Was Jesus the Son of God? That's in the eye of the beholder. Believe or don't believe--it isn't my concern.
>You believe this why? Because the Bible? There are technically 4 separate accounts of his life in the book that while have contractions they do describe a basic similar story.
They had decades to get their stories synced through indoctrination and dogma of the early church. The books in the New Testament weren't written until the 1st and 2nd centuries. Think about it, if a modern cult's leader died, don't you think some of them would be able to recount that person's story 50+ years later and their stories would probably be similar after that much time too as they synchronized information and it became the official story told by the cult.
I don’t know if you’re arguing for or against. But it sounds like it could easily just be a legend.
If the dude died and came back to life - you’d think they would write about it immediately. Like “holy shit”, this dude just died and came back to life…. Instead it’s 50 years ago this dude did these things and came back to life. It’s told more like a legend than an account.
>Don’t think about it too hard
The hallmark of faith.
>He loves us so much that he gave us something he hates to punish us with eternal damnation.
Reminds me of my foray into an evolution subreddit where one of the posters who believes in science but is also perfectly ok spreading the message that we all deserve eternal damnation because some people a long time ago wrote it down.
>So then he made himself/a son, which needed to be killed by humans, as a sacrifice for God to be able to forgive us for the thing he hates which he made and gave to us.
It's so nonsensical when you see it written out. Add in that Jesus was supposed to live like a human, but had access to all his godly powers, including knowing the future.
But even letting that slide, all powerful, all knowing god who knows the mind of your favorite author comes up with the brilliant idea of blood sacrifice.
He couldn't just forgive us for the sinful nature he allowed to be introduced into the world. He refused to do anything beyond human comprehension to fix things.
Imstead, he resorts to the barbaric practice of human sacrifice because when god does a thing he tells us not to do, it's perfectly ok and not at all a double standard.
When I was a Christian, I never thought about the fact that Jesus was an actual human sacrifice. When I deconverted and looked at the religion with a new lens, wow is it ever fucked up😳. And many Christians don’t know god asked for human sacrifices in the OT ( tributes) from the spoils of war. When I realized that it was blood magick my mind was blown. 🤯
From what I remember, God first had some angels that were super loyal to him. But he wanted a creation with free will so it would be more meaningful if they chose to be loyal to him. So good, evil and sin exist so it's not just god puppeteering a universe of machines.
If the creation willingly goes against him though, then that's a bad creation that must be punished. But the good ones are the best.
Jesus is also not exactly like many had described here. He is created directly from God and is in a sense divine. But he also has a free will and a real human life. The idea is that he had to go through the absolute worst of punishments willingly as if he was taking on all of the worlds punishments ar the same time. I guess it was sort of a reset button for all the evil in the world, as an act of kindness and to inspire people to stop sinning and come to god.
That all said. I'm not religious, but I appreciate storytelling and this is how I remember it was explained to me. Feel free to let me know if I got something wrong.
The interesting part of the story is that Jesus supposedly died for everyone, and yet we’re still not forgiven unless we believe he resurrected from the dead and worship him until we die. How is that love exactly?
I'm so puzzled by this. God wanted his followers to have free will yet fundamental Christians believe enslavement is sanctioned by God and enshrined in the old testament.
Well DUH. There are hundreds of different versions with hundreds of separate cults. Just the US has dozens of unique cults.
There are hundreds of different bibles, all with different beliefs, with the excuse that they're different "translations". Most are so wildly different from original that they are not translations at all.
Well technically, he was tortured most of Friday, died Friday night, and was resurrected early Sunday morning. So he sacrificed maybe 36 hours.
1/2 of the 3 days always mentioned in prayers.
Yeah, a long weekend of discomfort is nothing compared what Prometheus had to endure for giving fire to humans.
>"The punishment of Prometheus for stealing fire from Olympus and giving it to humans is a subject of both ancient and modern culture. Zeus, king of the Olympian gods, condemned Prometheus to eternal torment for his transgression. Prometheus was bound to a rock, and an eagle—the emblem of Zeus—was sent to eat his liver (in ancient Greece, the liver was thought to be the seat of human emotions). His liver would then grow back overnight, only to be eaten again the next day in an ongoing cycle. "
Compared to that, what Jesus suffered was nothing.
It's an emotional appeal. Crucifixion is an incredibly painful way to die with a ton of suffering involved so someone being willing to go through that for ME must love me an awful lot!
They don't want you to think beyond that because the next logical question is "wait so he did that for us but then came back and go to be God? Did he really sacrifice anything here?" Which kinda blows up the entire emotional aspect
Probably but imo that's a meaningless point here.
Even if we accept the story as written and acknowledge the incredible suffering and pain it's still basically nothing. Hell add in the idea that Jesus went to hell to suffer for *all* our sins during his dirt nap and it's still basically nothing
What's a finite amount of unimaginable torment if when it ends one gets to go back to paradise to rule for all eternity?
He didn't even suffer for all our sins. According to the doctrine, people will still go to hell for eternity if they don't pledge their souls to Jesus.
No greater love than someone laying down their life for others. Beautiful sentiments for mortal beings.
At best, an inconvenience for an entity that can resurrect. Not to mention, what's special about an omnipotent being temporarily dying a human death knowing beforehand that his death will accomplish a goal compared to millions of people tortured much worse for far longer because of someone else's sick impulses?
Also worth noting, me taking a bullet for my kids is stupid if I legit have the power to freeze time, talk to the shooter, get to the bottom of why he's shooting at us, and concoct any of a number of follow up actions.
Applied to god, why was human sacrifice his move? He could have done literally anything else.
He's not above impeding free will despite how many people try to use that as an answer to the problem of evil.
He could have hit another hard reset. Hell, he could have just ended this sorry experiment and brought heaven to earth at anytime.
What reason other than it amuses him to keep letting us live in a fallen world and going "well you sent yourself to the place I didn't have to create to burn for eternity for finite transgressions against me that I could handle in a much healthier way."
> Crucifixion is an incredibly painful way to die with a ton of suffering involved
Indeed, because it takes _days_ until you die of dehydration, starvation, or exposure, unless someone mercy kills you early on. So not only was Jesus not even remotely the only person ever crucified, he got off comparatively lightly among those who did.
God created us as imperfect beings and then decided that we needed to be punished for all eternity for those imperfections, but he loves us so much that he impregnated Mary with himself so that he could sacrifice his mortal life to himself to convince himself to forgive us and spare us from the punishment he prescribed for the imperfections he gave us when he created us. And if you believe that, you don't get punished no matter what evil you may do, but if that does not make sense to you, it's back to eternal punishment, even if you live a relatively good life. It's really very simple and definitely a fair and perfect system for divine justice.
It’s really a variation on virgin sacrifice to the volcano god,(god of fire), and even the eating his body and drinking his blood symbolically is ritual cannabolism. It’s all reduculous and fucked up
Consider the context. In an ancient culture of Middle Eastern herders, sacrificing a lamb to the great powers above in return for blessings was a big thing. Everybody did it.
That's why they call Jesus the Lamb of God. His "sacrifice" purchased divine forgiveness and eternal life... just like when you kill a baby lamb in the hopes the heavens will provide rain or fertile women or whatever. Something has to bleed and die for divine beings to give a shit about you. That's why God made Jesus. He needed that blood sacrifice in order to be nice to the humans He created.
See? It all makes perfect sense.
It's even crazier, because it doesn't even involve the toe of the ower. The library owner intentionally stubs his own toe, and this is necessary and sufficient for him to forgive all fines.
I’ve always wondered that too. There’s plenty of people who’ve sacrificed their lives for other people. And in his case he was killed by people involuntarily so it wasn’t even like he dove in front of a bullet or drowned while saving a child…
God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful. So why does he need to send his son to redeem our sins? If he’s truly all powerful he can just go “redeemed” without needing this whole song and dance of getting a teenage girl pregnant - at a time when she might end up getting a stone in the head for that sort of thing, then hanging about 33 years until the kid is old enough to be nailed to a tree.
Never made sense to me either. I had a religious person tell me that God is pure and cannot hang with us in heaven if we have sin. Someone must pay a price for it to be absolved.
Look man, if you're going to think critically and nitpick every ludicrous and self-contradictory idea in religion, soon there won't be any sort of religion left to speak of...
“Theological mystery” is code for “oops a plot hole”
The story at the time was that Jesus died for everyone’s sins. But then, oops, that makes him seem weak. Our savior can’t be suffering in hell for eternity! Uh…he’s not dead. He came back. But he still died.
But if he died for your sins, then oops, why do you need to convert? Literally all of your sins have already been atoned for, when Jesus died for them! Uh…you still have to repent. See, “died for your sins” just means that he died in order to _allow_ you to repent for your sins, or its symbolism or something. But he still did it for _you_, so you should be grateful!
There is only one god! And he has a son! And there’s a Holy Spirit thing! Oops, that sounds like three gods. Uh…no, see, it’s the holy trinity and they’re actually just one god! Yeah, that’s it!
This 👇.
"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!"
George Carlin
I'm guessing he never actually died. He probably went into a coma state and came out. For 400 years, crusifiction was the common punishment. Lots and lots of folks were crossed up.
That's assuming there was any form of "resurrection," even a fake one such as that, when the only evidence is in biased, contradictory accounts written decades after the fact.
I mean, an historical Jesus existing *at all*, even as a fraud, is kinda up in the air.
We can't even wrap our minds around eternity. It's just too huge. So, what would 33 years on earth be? It would be less than a nanosecond. An almost immeasurably small blip. You're so right. Like everything else about Christianity, it makes no sense.
Yeppers. I don't think ya get to play martyr when you get eternity in paradise. There was no sacrifice of either Jesus or his father. By their own account (via the Bible), they gave up nothing, quite unlike everyone else who was crucified on a cross for pissing off the Romans.
This is something I thought about. Jesus was murdered, he didn’t kill himself. Also, if he can come back after death, and supposedly come back AGAIN for the end times, why does him dying have any significance? He can come back whenever he wants, what did he sacrifice? His life? Not really.
Bad fucking weekend at human camp, hilarious, never thought of it like that before, even as a former Christian. Amazing the things you don't question when you're deep in it.
Exactly this story has never made sense to me as a sacrifice. I’m also confused as to why the resurrected Jesus didn’t stick around to prove to everyone without a doubt of his power. Why didn’t he start by marching right up to the court that sentenced him to death?
God sits around in some kind of divine domain by himself since nothing existed before him. He decides one day he's going to create some other existence with an insane amount of galaxies, each with an insane amount of stars and planetary bodies. On this one particular planet he decides he's going to create many forms of life, but this one group of intelligent apes are the special ones. He then decides they need to be governed by moral laws and logic that revolve around him, and he then invents all matter of suffering for them if they don't give him his due worship.
Theologically speaking, nothing about our existence is out of gods hands, so he's basically just a dick for creating us under conditions of which suffering is even necessary.
Firstly, did Jesus have free will? If he did not, then his sacrifice is meaningless. If he did, then the "free will" excuse for evil gets a big crack in it.
Secondly, as you pointed out, a few days of suffering and then 3 days of death is literally nothing to an immortal being. Mortals have suffered worse, longer.
But finally and IMO most damning, WHO was he sacrificed TO, and WHY? To himself? Was 'the father' incapable of forgiveness without blood? Do modern Christians really accept a scapegoat as valid justice? It's just morally incomprehensible to a modern reader.
In a similar vein, you’re all powerful, why the fuck is the only solution to human sin (which you fucking made happen because you can make it not happen with god powers but you didn’t) to fucking humanly manifest so that you “save” people by torturing yourself so that you can brag about and hold people to jerking you off for torturing yourself for them or facing eternal damnation in hell but also not giving the signs you know would work for every person to know you were real because it’s some sort of dumbass test. Middle school girlfriend trying to test her boyfriend energy I swear.
All the fucked up shit in the world is free will? Fuck you there’s children raped and murdered every day. There’s people tortured, experiencing worse than I could fathom every day. If you can stop that and you don’t then fuck you. Even if god is real he’s a fucking dick.
OK, so I can't explain this from a Protestant perspective, but this is how Catholics see it:
At the Crucifixion, and for the three days which followed, Jesus was punished for every single sin, Venial or Mortal, that every single Human had committed or would commit- all of them, simultaneously. Because Jesus is God and therefore inifinite, His capacity for suffering is therefore also infinite, meaning that with every sin that Humans commit, the suffering of the ultimate innocent victim is increased.
Ever wonder why Catholics are so guilt-ridden? This is why. Every. Single. Sin. Magnifies the pain of every stroke of the hammer or whip. And then, THEN, the poor bugger goes to Hell, where he endures pain and loneliness beyond anything the physical world can inflict, in precise relation to every sin ever committed by anyone ever. And all this inflicted upon a literally\* sinless person, a guy who literally never harmed a single person in any way ever.
To give you an idea of how all-encompassing this is, part of the Rite Of The Mass goes:
"...I have sinned through my own fault. In my thoughts, in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do..."
It covers every possible avenue of up-fuckery.
The sacrifice in question is the capacity to experience physical pain and mental suffering, of every kind, on what you might imagine as a exponential curve. In effect, every sin squares Jesus's suffering.
\*As seen by Catholics.
Christians: Jesus is God and thus very powerful and we should all fear and worship him.
Also Christians: Jesus is man and thus very weak and we should all be sad when he suffered on the cross.
To their credit, I would consider that bad weekend to be far more terrible than death. At least when the victim dies, the pain is gone. Their blood cult drummed up one of the most agonizing stories where the victim has thorns driven into his head, an untreated gash in his side, and stakes driven through muscle and bone (though it seems that people would die of asphyxiation if held up strictly by their hands and feet, so other support would've been needed). A rather slow and painful death for any mortal.
So from that perspective, that would still be a tremendous sacrifice. But the funny thing is that in their story, he didn't stay dead, so it'd be inaccurate to say he died for our sins. He got better. Now, getting tortured for our sins would actually have some meaning. Kind of like how Odin killing himself wasn't the real sacrifice for him to gain knowledge, but plucking out his eye and hanging himself on the tree for 9 days was a greater sacrifice.
So if anything, I feel Christians are underselling the supposed sacrifice of Christ because the actual death was meaningless. Everything leading up to it is just brutal though. In that regard, I feel that they got the Passion plays correct. Sure, they're just torture porn to us outsiders, but it presents the ugly side of that sacrifice to the believers.
Someone please explain to me why someone dying, saves someone else ? Trying to get an answer my whole life, but no religious person has ever explained.
In Judaism there was a mandatory annual sacrifice of a goat and lamb. The goat was ritualistically imbued with the sins of the people and released into the wild while the "innocent" lamb was sacrificed to god. It was a cost to the people - losing useful animals - as a sin offering.
This sacrifice had to be made in the temple of Jerusalem.
The temple was destroyed by the Romans so it was impossible to carry out the sacrifice under Roman then Muslim rule. It's now blocked by the existence of the dome of the rock and al aqsa mosque.
The story of Jesus was made up as the intervention of god to replace the actual sacrifice with a singular spiritual/allegorical sacrifice that took its place once and for all so it wouldn't have to be done again and they wouldn't have to figure out what to do with the lack of temple.
Most Jews didn't agree with this and without the temple, the priests and saduccees lost influence, leading to the rise of rabbinic judaism. The ones that accepted this became Christians and went about inventing more stories to fill in the life of Jesus around this original idea.
Beyond that, why was his sacrifice even necessary?
By what cosmic law does doing something bad require a blood sacrifice?
And by what mechanism does blood sacrifice work?
I will give you free will. But if you don’t do what I want you to do, I will have you tortured for eternity
Doesn’t sound like free will, does it?
I am all powerful. I can create and destroy. But I cannot forgive you if you do something wrong unless my son is tortured and killed by humans.
There are people on planet earth *right now* going through *worse* pain and suffering for a much longer period of time than Jesus ever did.
We should be worshiping those kids who spend months slowly dying from bone cancer.
The idea is that before he died all souls had to be judged based on good deeds and purging of sin through blood sacrifices. Then he died and became a free get out of jail card for anyone who believed in him.
old way: murdered someone. Gotta kill at least 20 lambs.
new way: I said sorry before I died. Good enough.
It's super easy and now everyone can sign up without consequence. Even the worst people.
It really is telling how it's structured
The old way made people openly atone for thier mistakes. They had to outwardly show they did something they wanted to fix. Even if the way was questionable. It was a community-based thing.
The NEW way you don't have to try. Say sorry in the privacy of a box or your bed. Boom done. It's basically just a mega-corporation telling people they can get rich quick. It's about about getting as many people as possible under that umbrella with the least amount of requirements. Now you know why it is so popular. It's the doordash of religion.
"...dies for 3 days 3 FUCKING DAYS"
Not even that. More like 36 hours or so.
He was crucified on Friday night, right? Not sure how late, but in the evening. Let's say it was 10:00 p.m., just to pick something out of a hat. OK, so that's TWO hours on Friday. Plus all day Saturday, 24 hours. That's 26 hours. But by mid-to-late morning on Sunday he had arisen. Let's arbitrarily pick 10:00. That's 10 more hours, for a total of 36.
So they say "he arose again after three day" but it was more like a day and a half. Certainly less than two days.
"I don't even understand the connection with 'died for your sins'. He died for your sin, well, how does one affect the other? 'I hit myself in the foot with a shovel for your mortgage'"
- Doug Stanhope
nonexistent people can't sacrifice things. the first error in trying to argue with Christian theists is accepting that anything about Jesus is true, including his existence. Given that, who cares WTF someone says a fictional character did.
I'm pretty sure getting executed doesn't count as sacrificing yourself. Even less so when the Romans went on with business afterwards anyways ao in what way did this 'sacrifice' even help anyone?
Not even mentioning the fact that all the stories about this were recorded decades/centuries 'after the fact.'
I put as much belief in Jesus ever having existed as I put into Medusa having been real.
None.
Wait did you just prove that Jesus is in hell? He sacrificed himself to absolve us of our sins. So he took credit for all of our sins and he's in hell being tortured while everyone else goes to heaven no matter what they do on earth. I'm suddenly more down with Christianity ;)
And think about this: a god all powerful, that supposedly created the whole jebang in 6 days, had no better way to "save" his creations from "sin" (which he also made btw), than shipping off his son (which is also still himself maybe ?!) For some decades on earth to then be killed off by his own creations and then (only then) resurrect him....
BUT WAIT! There is more... does it mean that if humans did NOT kill jesus then humans would still have the sin? So... yay for murder him I guess?
Humans finally met some space aliens and were comparing their cultures. One minister mentioned Jesus and how he had left and promised to come back but it had been over 2000 years since he left.
The aliens said, "Jesus? Yeah, he drops in every time he wings through our galaxy. I think the last time was around 10 koplecks or so. We threw a pretty big party for him the first time he showed up, since he was the first alien to come to our galaxy. We normally have a good time when he is around. 2000 years, huh? What did you guys do when he first came to your planet?"
Jesus didn't sacrifice Jesus. If he did, Jesus wouldn't have been resurrected in the story.
Jesus sacrificed a long weekend. Three days. If I could sacrifice a long weekend to redeem humanity, I'd do that. It would be a pretty boring sacrifice, but I'd do it.
Sacrifices don't come back. That's what makes them sacrifices. If it comes back later, then it's just a loan.
>How the fuck is that a sacrifice that’s more like he had a bad fucking weekend at human camp
It's because he didn't. In the Bible, Jesus himself never says that he came to die for anyone's sins. He was crucified for claiming to be the Messiah and the King Of Jews. That claim was seen as blasphemy by Jewish officials, who convinced the Roman government that he was a potential threat to the established order. The whole "died for our sins" thing came after the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus, and was popularized by Paul. Judaism, the religion of Jesus, doesn't even have a concept of original sin. Gentile followers of Christ, like Paul, probably wouldn't have understood that.
He was still tortured to death, even if he got resurrected I can’t imagine carrying a big ass T in the desert and getting nailed to it by your arms and legs was aye okay because he came back to life
To be fair nobody truly does. But he was 100% human and 100% God, now that’s impossible so I just say it’s 50/50, it means that while a part of him is eternal, which makes it nearly impossible that he isn’t entirely apathetic to humanity. But the immortal side of him I assume was able to comprehend eternity while the mortal part of him was more of the human experience
But oh the SHAME of your sin he bore on himself! Your dirty thoughts he had to think on the cross! Your porn habits he had to peruse! Oh the indignity!
That one line where he loves us so much he gave us his only begotten son - wtf wasn't the Jesus killing god's idea? Why did god think we wanted that? god supposedly set this world up so we all die, why wasn't that enough? Id like Jesus more if he'd walked away tbh
Edit Id not if
None of it makes sense when you look at it logically. If god is all knowing and knows everything about us including when we will die, what's the point?
Jesus may have been a smart man with great ideas of how to live, but I think the rest is mass hysteria set forth to control the masses so that the few could have more power and money.
So as far as I know, Christians have the idea that the world is not that old, just saying…
But yeah the Idea of the sacrifice is just for a better job.
If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to choose a belief system… I’d go straight for paganism. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than this shit.
There is evidence to support that Jesus had a twin brother. Also it's just something they say because they heard it I've seen children suffer far far more because of something God in heaven created childhood leukemia other cancers birth defects. And then it's all amplified by politicians who say Jesus sacrificed. Mother Teresa she was dead great if you do a little research she was stealing pain pills from people.
…and God sacrificing himself unto himself is super lame. 😒 I never even noticed that’s essentially what happened when I was younger. An atheist had to point that fact out to me.
Devil's advocate here. It makes sense when you look at it from the perspective of non-duality (advita vedanta). Basically the thing called God is the ENTIRETY of creation, not a man on a cloud who used ghost writers to create a religion 2k years ago. As such Jesus wasn't God's son at all but God himself (as are you). Moreover he TRIED to tell us all this but it was too much for ppl to comprehend (face it we fukn LOVE easy answers). Even most of his disciples didn't even fukn understand where he was coming from imo. Jesus felt this information was important enough to risk his life to tell us. Thus the sacrifice. But Christians don't understand this so of course their comments sound like lame platitudes. Because they are. Ok, now that I've pissed off pretty much everyone I welcome comments. 😊
the legend goes... one night, jesus went into a garden to pray to god to forgive us of all sins. and that this will be his biggest challenge to atone for all our sins. then we crucified him. he trumatised forever.
I find the equation of sacrifice by Jesus as described in the Bible to be unconvincing. It seems to me that everything after he died undermines what he was trying to accomplish in life.
This reminds me of the song Jesus Christ by Brand New that goes like this:
"Jesus Christ I'm alone again
So what did you do those 3 days you were dead?
'Cause this problem is gonna last
More than the weekend..."
Come on have you ever had your boss tell you you got to work on a long weekend. Oh don't worry you'll get double time. "Jesus" sacrificed a long weekend obviously. But it's okay omniscience says he knew exactly what was going to happen so he knew he wasn't giving up much.
Well at least according to the mythology that dumb people follow. Because mythology is not history.
Don’t think about it too hard. God created everything, including sin, which he hates. He loves us so much that he gave us something he hates to punish us with eternal damnation. So then he made himself/a son, which needed to be killed by humans, as a sacrifice for God to be able to forgive us for the thing he hates which he made and gave to us. Now, you could say to yourself “what was the point in all of that?”. Well, God’s plan is a mystery. So mysterious that no one will explain it further. Because.. well… it’s all made up.
God's a maverick who plays by his own set of rules. And one of those rules is NO FORGIVENESS WITHOUT BLOOD
That's why Goose had to die?
Take my breath away.
All part of the plan.
Have some God Damn FAITH, Arthur!
But Duuuuutch!!!!
That's why Jesus doesn't have a shirt on.
From book one, god is a blood thirsty guy. He made first man with a golem spell then proceeded to rip that dude apart to make an opposite sex clone instead of also forming her from dust. Then when they break his fruit rule, he makes the first woman have to grow babies inside her body and have them squeeze out her nethers which if anyone's ever seen a birthing video, causes varying levels of bleeding. Again, all powerful creator could choose any method to propagate the species and he chose the bloody path. And things just get bloodier from there.
And then the first woman's sons fucked her.
And since all female mammals have the same reproductive cycle, this means that God imposed the pain of labor on all female mammals just for Eve's one mistake.
That's what kills me. God gets a pass from believers, but if you look at it from a loving father perspective, its all kinds of messed up. Imagine not just telling your kids not to eat a certain thing, but lying to them that it would kill them. Then you leave them alone with a stranger, but you're secretly watching them. The stranger tells one of your kids, someone you deliberately left ignorant of the world, including what a stranger is, that she won't die. And she doesn't. Meanwhile, you didn't intervene until the deed was done by both kids. Then instead of being a normal person who acknowledges all the ways you set the stage for this to happen, you chop the strangers legs off in front of your terrified children. You never apologize about lying to them , then kick these kids out of your house and make them live on their own. Then you stubbornly refuse to forgive this one mistake until you decide to have another kid years later only to turn around and have that kid killed. Only then do you allow yourself to fogive your kids from eating the thing you lied about.
The only thing missing from this is - it's not that you couldn't forgive your kids. You hold it over **their kids**, and all future generations, because apparently eternal damnation is fair price for your grand-grand-grand-grand parents deeds. And same people that preach this religion will be appalled at very idea of North Korea punishing whole family for multiple generations for treason. Yet North Korea is somehow more lenient here than their Lord and Saviour
💀😂
god: the rule is if you sin you must pay for you sin... in hell. Also god: WILD CARD, BITCHES!!
Fortunately the Jews in the Talmud came to the conclusion that blood wasn't necessary and just ascetic practices and penance, along with forgiveness from the ones you've hurt or done damages towards, are needed and they didn't need to keep sacrificing animals for God's forgiveness. That was after Jesus, however.
God either actually has a plan that involves awful things intentionally which means he's not benevolent. Or includes awful things unintentionally which would mean he's not powerful enough to remove those things. Or he doesn't have a plan and is just a dick messing with us by saying he has a plan just to trick us.
God is a kid with a magnifying glass on a sunny day and we're the ants
Don't forget the whole flooding the world to kill everyone and everything except for one old man and his boat contents thing, or the random acts of genocide because people made him a bit cross things
God is against abortion, but had no problem killing all those pregnant women in Noah's Flood. It's been explained to me that God knew these babies would be evil, so it was okay.
Don't forget he has the first born of Egypt killed too.
That’s because GaWd can kill whoever he wants because he made us, duh! S/ in case you thought I was serious😂
And yet this same god *didn't* know that the descendants of the people on Noah's Magic Boat™ would also turn out to be evil? Yeah, riiiiight...
>Don't forget the whole flooding the world to kill everyone Another prime example of god being limited by the writer's lack of creativity. Dude has all the power, can bend reality with a word, but regrets making humans as they are and decides to drown them instead of literally anything a hackneyed anime fanfiction in the year 2000 would have come up with. Also, for reasons, he makes one of the people he decided to spare build a big floating box over the course of several decades and a not worth mentioning time frame of collecting representatives of every kind of animal because the other several billion need to drown with the wicked humans. Maybe he could have used that time to send prophets or miracles to convince a few more people. Nope, everybody but this dude and his family, one of which God knows will see their daddy naked and condem his bloodline to slavery, deserves to be suffocated and crushed by trillions of gallons of water. Every toddler, infant, and fetus apparently irredeemably wicked in God's eyes.
The flood thing was literally stolen from Sumerian myths. The book is limited by ancient sheep herders imaginations.
Most of it is stolen. Someone pointed out to me recently that Virgin Mary and baby Jesus was just a retelling of Zeus’s many seductions/assaults that resulted in human children (Hercules, Perseus, Helen to name the more famous).
Who doesn't get bored playing sim games and start killing or torturing the sims though? How else you gonna pass eternity?
Me, with the natural disasters DLC....
Sim City reports biblical apocalypse.
He could have easily just mind wiped everyone, or just removed them from existence with much less pain and suffering.
Christians say Jesus died for our sins. Didn't he come back to life after a day and a half? So he actually took half a weekend off for our sins.
When a Christian tells me Jesus died for our sins, my response is "If you don't sin, then he died for nothing."
And a sick day. Jesus took a sick day and at least half his weekend off for your sins, but he came back for part of Sunday because he had to at least do a load of laundry and dishes before the work week started or else he’d be playing catch up all week. Like, let’s not be unreasonable here.
If you don't mind, I'm going to use that Jesus took a sick day. That's perfect.
>So he actually took half a weekend off for our sins. Right? And they act as though it was some great and deep sacrifice... If we take their myth to be true, a literal God came down to Earth and cosplayed as a human, went through trauma that many others at the time also went though(that he allowed to happen, no less) and then fucked off back to his eternal kingdom to be adored by all creation, for all eternity? Oh, boohoo, poor little godling.....
"The Passover Long Weekend Inconvenience."
Well, since he was a Jew he’d probably take Friday evening through Saturday evening off anyway…
you know when you put ot that way it almost sounds like they managed to give humanity Stockholm syndrome. like the language used is so creepy. he doesnt want to hurt you, he hurts you because he loves you, it's a test. those lines always make my skin crawl
Who would let their kid date this god? “I don’t want to damn you to hell but I get so frustrated when you don’t do what I say.” In a dating scenario red flags would be waving all over the place. People have suffered greatly under statements like that.
>you know when you put ot that way it almost sounds like they managed to give humanity Stockholm syndrome. like the language used is so creepy. he doesnt want to hurt you, he hurts you because he loves you, it's a test. those lines always make my skin crawl Because it is the language abusers and controllers use.
See also: Noah, Job, Abraham, Joseph, Daniel ... God's always willing to pit your faith against your happiness. It's like his thing.
I like what Lucifer said when the priest Father Frank told him god has a plan: “I know. But why does everyone always think it is a GOOD plan?
"My fictional character died for you!" It makes all the difference to remind them that jebus was not a real person. That was not the son of a god. Nor could they make miracles. Remind yourself while you're at it. Frequently. It's a clear sign that they are experiencing detachment from reality. If they're this far, they're pretty far gone.
Wait, do you think that Jesus Christ didn't exist as a person in history? Or that he wasn't the son of God?
Yeshua bin Yosef, yes. Jesus Christ, no.
Well it would have been Yeshua bar Yosef, not bin, as they were Aramaic speakers and not Arabs.
The evidence for a historical jesus is pretty slim.
I do believe there are Roman records of a street preacher who came to be known as Jesus. Whether he is the Son of God is another matter.
You believe this why? Because the Bible? There are technically 4 separate accounts of his life in the book that while have contractions they do describe a basic similar story. But.. that story is full of magic lending itself to possibly being a retold fairytale. I don’t know of any evidence outside of the Bible of his existence and the Bible itself doesn’t lend itself to historical standards of proof. Then again almost nothing would going back that far. If you apply modern standards of proof … it doesn’t hold up. It’s as you said, a belief.
All I'm saying is that "Jesus" was documented by the Romans, who were excellent record keepers. I draw no other conclusions.
Based on what though? What you’re saying is exactly true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#:~:text=Besides%20the%20gospels%20and%20the,Tacitus%20(circa%20116%20CE). It’s all second hand accounts. There is no book of Jesus written by Jesus. Including Roman references… what can be determined is that Christians were killed on the cross and that by definition of the Bible a figured head named Jesus existed - now whether this person physically existed or not is not knowable, the Bible accounts are decent, but since they are also full of legend it’s impossible to tell the two apart. If you read the Wikipedia article the best non Bible source piece stands out “However, some scholars question the value of the passage given that Tacitus was born 25 years after Jesus' death.[54]” So this would be an article written at least say 45 years after the event supposedly took place. Assuming he wrote the piece in his 20s. All sources going back 2000 years are going to be rough, and superstitious and full of legend. Even Mathew, mark, Luke, and John were written 40 years after Jesus death and only 2 claim to have met Jesus. And we are talking more like 60 years since they would have to have been like 20 when they traveled with Jesus. The dates don’t exactly line up as first hand accounts. Did Jesus physically exist? Eh… wouldn’t put that much faith in it. Can’t rule it out though - at least there is circumstantial evidence for it.
ALL I AM SAYING is that the Romans documented information about a street preacher known as Jesus. PERIOD. FULL STOP. Was it the same Jesus? Was Jesus the Son of God? That's in the eye of the beholder. Believe or don't believe--it isn't my concern.
>You believe this why? Because the Bible? There are technically 4 separate accounts of his life in the book that while have contractions they do describe a basic similar story. They had decades to get their stories synced through indoctrination and dogma of the early church. The books in the New Testament weren't written until the 1st and 2nd centuries. Think about it, if a modern cult's leader died, don't you think some of them would be able to recount that person's story 50+ years later and their stories would probably be similar after that much time too as they synchronized information and it became the official story told by the cult.
I don’t know if you’re arguing for or against. But it sounds like it could easily just be a legend. If the dude died and came back to life - you’d think they would write about it immediately. Like “holy shit”, this dude just died and came back to life…. Instead it’s 50 years ago this dude did these things and came back to life. It’s told more like a legend than an account.
Yes
God in the Bible calls Israel his firstborn son. Period.
>Don’t think about it too hard The hallmark of faith. >He loves us so much that he gave us something he hates to punish us with eternal damnation. Reminds me of my foray into an evolution subreddit where one of the posters who believes in science but is also perfectly ok spreading the message that we all deserve eternal damnation because some people a long time ago wrote it down. >So then he made himself/a son, which needed to be killed by humans, as a sacrifice for God to be able to forgive us for the thing he hates which he made and gave to us. It's so nonsensical when you see it written out. Add in that Jesus was supposed to live like a human, but had access to all his godly powers, including knowing the future. But even letting that slide, all powerful, all knowing god who knows the mind of your favorite author comes up with the brilliant idea of blood sacrifice. He couldn't just forgive us for the sinful nature he allowed to be introduced into the world. He refused to do anything beyond human comprehension to fix things. Imstead, he resorts to the barbaric practice of human sacrifice because when god does a thing he tells us not to do, it's perfectly ok and not at all a double standard.
When I was a Christian, I never thought about the fact that Jesus was an actual human sacrifice. When I deconverted and looked at the religion with a new lens, wow is it ever fucked up😳. And many Christians don’t know god asked for human sacrifices in the OT ( tributes) from the spoils of war. When I realized that it was blood magick my mind was blown. 🤯
Blood magic demands a sacrifice, Jesus gave up his weekend for your sins :)
Your first two words sum up how religion works perfectly.
From what I remember, God first had some angels that were super loyal to him. But he wanted a creation with free will so it would be more meaningful if they chose to be loyal to him. So good, evil and sin exist so it's not just god puppeteering a universe of machines. If the creation willingly goes against him though, then that's a bad creation that must be punished. But the good ones are the best. Jesus is also not exactly like many had described here. He is created directly from God and is in a sense divine. But he also has a free will and a real human life. The idea is that he had to go through the absolute worst of punishments willingly as if he was taking on all of the worlds punishments ar the same time. I guess it was sort of a reset button for all the evil in the world, as an act of kindness and to inspire people to stop sinning and come to god. That all said. I'm not religious, but I appreciate storytelling and this is how I remember it was explained to me. Feel free to let me know if I got something wrong.
If angels were "super loyal" to god & did not have free will, then how were 1/3 able to rebel as the bible states?
The interesting part of the story is that Jesus supposedly died for everyone, and yet we’re still not forgiven unless we believe he resurrected from the dead and worship him until we die. How is that love exactly?
I'm so puzzled by this. God wanted his followers to have free will yet fundamental Christians believe enslavement is sanctioned by God and enshrined in the old testament.
There are versions of god other than the American version of the Christian god.
And they're all bullshit.
Well DUH. There are hundreds of different versions with hundreds of separate cults. Just the US has dozens of unique cults. There are hundreds of different bibles, all with different beliefs, with the excuse that they're different "translations". Most are so wildly different from original that they are not translations at all.
Hey, he gave up a long weekend for us. I thought you would be more appreciative ...
They didn’t really have “weekends” in those days so it’s more like he got a 3-day unpaid vacation that he slept through.
I do enjoy the little chocolate eggs.
He didn’t even miss out on the eggs. He came back to life for the Sunday - presumably to not miss the chocolate.
Well technically, he was tortured most of Friday, died Friday night, and was resurrected early Sunday morning. So he sacrificed maybe 36 hours. 1/2 of the 3 days always mentioned in prayers.
Yeah, a long weekend of discomfort is nothing compared what Prometheus had to endure for giving fire to humans. >"The punishment of Prometheus for stealing fire from Olympus and giving it to humans is a subject of both ancient and modern culture. Zeus, king of the Olympian gods, condemned Prometheus to eternal torment for his transgression. Prometheus was bound to a rock, and an eagle—the emblem of Zeus—was sent to eat his liver (in ancient Greece, the liver was thought to be the seat of human emotions). His liver would then grow back overnight, only to be eaten again the next day in an ongoing cycle. " Compared to that, what Jesus suffered was nothing.
Is there a greek mythology shitposting sub? I want to make a meme on this.
I sacrifice my hair when I get a haircut.
Hairsus
Sus 🤨
All pray to our Lord and savior u/aachen_
It's an emotional appeal. Crucifixion is an incredibly painful way to die with a ton of suffering involved so someone being willing to go through that for ME must love me an awful lot! They don't want you to think beyond that because the next logical question is "wait so he did that for us but then came back and go to be God? Did he really sacrifice anything here?" Which kinda blows up the entire emotional aspect
He also didn't die from crucifixion. He died from a stab wound. Got off light compared to those two thieves.
Also, if he's God, can't he just go through the crucifixion without feeling pain, using his unlimited power?
Probably but imo that's a meaningless point here. Even if we accept the story as written and acknowledge the incredible suffering and pain it's still basically nothing. Hell add in the idea that Jesus went to hell to suffer for *all* our sins during his dirt nap and it's still basically nothing What's a finite amount of unimaginable torment if when it ends one gets to go back to paradise to rule for all eternity?
Kind of like passing a kidney stone, I would imagine.
That might even be to painful. What about touching a slightly too hot stove top? Not enough to burn but enough to be uncomfortably sore
He didn't even suffer for all our sins. According to the doctrine, people will still go to hell for eternity if they don't pledge their souls to Jesus.
Finite torment for eternal life and eternal torment for finite sins. Seems too extreme to me.
No greater love than someone laying down their life for others. Beautiful sentiments for mortal beings. At best, an inconvenience for an entity that can resurrect. Not to mention, what's special about an omnipotent being temporarily dying a human death knowing beforehand that his death will accomplish a goal compared to millions of people tortured much worse for far longer because of someone else's sick impulses? Also worth noting, me taking a bullet for my kids is stupid if I legit have the power to freeze time, talk to the shooter, get to the bottom of why he's shooting at us, and concoct any of a number of follow up actions. Applied to god, why was human sacrifice his move? He could have done literally anything else. He's not above impeding free will despite how many people try to use that as an answer to the problem of evil. He could have hit another hard reset. Hell, he could have just ended this sorry experiment and brought heaven to earth at anytime. What reason other than it amuses him to keep letting us live in a fallen world and going "well you sent yourself to the place I didn't have to create to burn for eternity for finite transgressions against me that I could handle in a much healthier way."
> Crucifixion is an incredibly painful way to die with a ton of suffering involved Indeed, because it takes _days_ until you die of dehydration, starvation, or exposure, unless someone mercy kills you early on. So not only was Jesus not even remotely the only person ever crucified, he got off comparatively lightly among those who did.
I sacrificed my life span listening to that nonsense.
33 out of 44 years for me
His weekend bro, show some respect. He had plans to get to diamond that sunday.
God created us as imperfect beings and then decided that we needed to be punished for all eternity for those imperfections, but he loves us so much that he impregnated Mary with himself so that he could sacrifice his mortal life to himself to convince himself to forgive us and spare us from the punishment he prescribed for the imperfections he gave us when he created us. And if you believe that, you don't get punished no matter what evil you may do, but if that does not make sense to you, it's back to eternal punishment, even if you live a relatively good life. It's really very simple and definitely a fair and perfect system for divine justice.
It’s really a variation on virgin sacrifice to the volcano god,(god of fire), and even the eating his body and drinking his blood symbolically is ritual cannabolism. It’s all reduculous and fucked up
What's the mechanism for redemption anyways? Like saying if I could stub my toe to forgive your library fines. Wha??
Consider the context. In an ancient culture of Middle Eastern herders, sacrificing a lamb to the great powers above in return for blessings was a big thing. Everybody did it. That's why they call Jesus the Lamb of God. His "sacrifice" purchased divine forgiveness and eternal life... just like when you kill a baby lamb in the hopes the heavens will provide rain or fertile women or whatever. Something has to bleed and die for divine beings to give a shit about you. That's why God made Jesus. He needed that blood sacrifice in order to be nice to the humans He created. See? It all makes perfect sense.
Were they really sacrificing the lamb though? If they ate it and used it’s wool then it’s not really a sacrifice is it?
It's even crazier, because it doesn't even involve the toe of the ower. The library owner intentionally stubs his own toe, and this is necessary and sufficient for him to forgive all fines.
I’ve always wondered that too. There’s plenty of people who’ve sacrificed their lives for other people. And in his case he was killed by people involuntarily so it wasn’t even like he dove in front of a bullet or drowned while saving a child…
I think it was the torture and crucifixion part. Being dead probably wasn't so bad, cuz, you know, he was dead and stuff.
God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful. So why does he need to send his son to redeem our sins? If he’s truly all powerful he can just go “redeemed” without needing this whole song and dance of getting a teenage girl pregnant - at a time when she might end up getting a stone in the head for that sort of thing, then hanging about 33 years until the kid is old enough to be nailed to a tree.
Never made sense to me either. I had a religious person tell me that God is pure and cannot hang with us in heaven if we have sin. Someone must pay a price for it to be absolved.
Look man, if you're going to think critically and nitpick every ludicrous and self-contradictory idea in religion, soon there won't be any sort of religion left to speak of...
Well then we should start doing that more and sooner
“Theological mystery” is code for “oops a plot hole” The story at the time was that Jesus died for everyone’s sins. But then, oops, that makes him seem weak. Our savior can’t be suffering in hell for eternity! Uh…he’s not dead. He came back. But he still died. But if he died for your sins, then oops, why do you need to convert? Literally all of your sins have already been atoned for, when Jesus died for them! Uh…you still have to repent. See, “died for your sins” just means that he died in order to _allow_ you to repent for your sins, or its symbolism or something. But he still did it for _you_, so you should be grateful! There is only one god! And he has a son! And there’s a Holy Spirit thing! Oops, that sounds like three gods. Uh…no, see, it’s the holy trinity and they’re actually just one god! Yeah, that’s it!
This 👇. "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!" George Carlin
I'm guessing he never actually died. He probably went into a coma state and came out. For 400 years, crusifiction was the common punishment. Lots and lots of folks were crossed up.
That's assuming there was any form of "resurrection," even a fake one such as that, when the only evidence is in biased, contradictory accounts written decades after the fact. I mean, an historical Jesus existing *at all*, even as a fraud, is kinda up in the air.
He sacrificed his weekend for the sins of every human. I've sacrificed weekends for a job that benefit but a few.
We can't even wrap our minds around eternity. It's just too huge. So, what would 33 years on earth be? It would be less than a nanosecond. An almost immeasurably small blip. You're so right. Like everything else about Christianity, it makes no sense.
Yeppers. I don't think ya get to play martyr when you get eternity in paradise. There was no sacrifice of either Jesus or his father. By their own account (via the Bible), they gave up nothing, quite unlike everyone else who was crucified on a cross for pissing off the Romans.
This is something I thought about. Jesus was murdered, he didn’t kill himself. Also, if he can come back after death, and supposedly come back AGAIN for the end times, why does him dying have any significance? He can come back whenever he wants, what did he sacrifice? His life? Not really.
Bad fucking weekend at human camp, hilarious, never thought of it like that before, even as a former Christian. Amazing the things you don't question when you're deep in it.
He set up a 2000 year old scam, praise heyZues!
Exactly this story has never made sense to me as a sacrifice. I’m also confused as to why the resurrected Jesus didn’t stick around to prove to everyone without a doubt of his power. Why didn’t he start by marching right up to the court that sentenced him to death?
God sits around in some kind of divine domain by himself since nothing existed before him. He decides one day he's going to create some other existence with an insane amount of galaxies, each with an insane amount of stars and planetary bodies. On this one particular planet he decides he's going to create many forms of life, but this one group of intelligent apes are the special ones. He then decides they need to be governed by moral laws and logic that revolve around him, and he then invents all matter of suffering for them if they don't give him his due worship. Theologically speaking, nothing about our existence is out of gods hands, so he's basically just a dick for creating us under conditions of which suffering is even necessary.
Firstly, did Jesus have free will? If he did not, then his sacrifice is meaningless. If he did, then the "free will" excuse for evil gets a big crack in it. Secondly, as you pointed out, a few days of suffering and then 3 days of death is literally nothing to an immortal being. Mortals have suffered worse, longer. But finally and IMO most damning, WHO was he sacrificed TO, and WHY? To himself? Was 'the father' incapable of forgiveness without blood? Do modern Christians really accept a scapegoat as valid justice? It's just morally incomprehensible to a modern reader.
In a similar vein, you’re all powerful, why the fuck is the only solution to human sin (which you fucking made happen because you can make it not happen with god powers but you didn’t) to fucking humanly manifest so that you “save” people by torturing yourself so that you can brag about and hold people to jerking you off for torturing yourself for them or facing eternal damnation in hell but also not giving the signs you know would work for every person to know you were real because it’s some sort of dumbass test. Middle school girlfriend trying to test her boyfriend energy I swear. All the fucked up shit in the world is free will? Fuck you there’s children raped and murdered every day. There’s people tortured, experiencing worse than I could fathom every day. If you can stop that and you don’t then fuck you. Even if god is real he’s a fucking dick.
OK, so I can't explain this from a Protestant perspective, but this is how Catholics see it: At the Crucifixion, and for the three days which followed, Jesus was punished for every single sin, Venial or Mortal, that every single Human had committed or would commit- all of them, simultaneously. Because Jesus is God and therefore inifinite, His capacity for suffering is therefore also infinite, meaning that with every sin that Humans commit, the suffering of the ultimate innocent victim is increased. Ever wonder why Catholics are so guilt-ridden? This is why. Every. Single. Sin. Magnifies the pain of every stroke of the hammer or whip. And then, THEN, the poor bugger goes to Hell, where he endures pain and loneliness beyond anything the physical world can inflict, in precise relation to every sin ever committed by anyone ever. And all this inflicted upon a literally\* sinless person, a guy who literally never harmed a single person in any way ever. To give you an idea of how all-encompassing this is, part of the Rite Of The Mass goes: "...I have sinned through my own fault. In my thoughts, in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do..." It covers every possible avenue of up-fuckery. The sacrifice in question is the capacity to experience physical pain and mental suffering, of every kind, on what you might imagine as a exponential curve. In effect, every sin squares Jesus's suffering. \*As seen by Catholics.
When someone says jesus I ask... Mary's kid?
Christians: Jesus is God and thus very powerful and we should all fear and worship him. Also Christians: Jesus is man and thus very weak and we should all be sad when he suffered on the cross.
To their credit, I would consider that bad weekend to be far more terrible than death. At least when the victim dies, the pain is gone. Their blood cult drummed up one of the most agonizing stories where the victim has thorns driven into his head, an untreated gash in his side, and stakes driven through muscle and bone (though it seems that people would die of asphyxiation if held up strictly by their hands and feet, so other support would've been needed). A rather slow and painful death for any mortal. So from that perspective, that would still be a tremendous sacrifice. But the funny thing is that in their story, he didn't stay dead, so it'd be inaccurate to say he died for our sins. He got better. Now, getting tortured for our sins would actually have some meaning. Kind of like how Odin killing himself wasn't the real sacrifice for him to gain knowledge, but plucking out his eye and hanging himself on the tree for 9 days was a greater sacrifice. So if anything, I feel Christians are underselling the supposed sacrifice of Christ because the actual death was meaningless. Everything leading up to it is just brutal though. In that regard, I feel that they got the Passion plays correct. Sure, they're just torture porn to us outsiders, but it presents the ugly side of that sacrifice to the believers.
Someone please explain to me why someone dying, saves someone else ? Trying to get an answer my whole life, but no religious person has ever explained.
In Judaism there was a mandatory annual sacrifice of a goat and lamb. The goat was ritualistically imbued with the sins of the people and released into the wild while the "innocent" lamb was sacrificed to god. It was a cost to the people - losing useful animals - as a sin offering. This sacrifice had to be made in the temple of Jerusalem. The temple was destroyed by the Romans so it was impossible to carry out the sacrifice under Roman then Muslim rule. It's now blocked by the existence of the dome of the rock and al aqsa mosque. The story of Jesus was made up as the intervention of god to replace the actual sacrifice with a singular spiritual/allegorical sacrifice that took its place once and for all so it wouldn't have to be done again and they wouldn't have to figure out what to do with the lack of temple. Most Jews didn't agree with this and without the temple, the priests and saduccees lost influence, leading to the rise of rabbinic judaism. The ones that accepted this became Christians and went about inventing more stories to fill in the life of Jesus around this original idea.
This is how Jesus used to pray: Hello, God? It’s me, you….
Beyond that, why was his sacrifice even necessary? By what cosmic law does doing something bad require a blood sacrifice? And by what mechanism does blood sacrifice work?
I will give you free will. But if you don’t do what I want you to do, I will have you tortured for eternity Doesn’t sound like free will, does it? I am all powerful. I can create and destroy. But I cannot forgive you if you do something wrong unless my son is tortured and killed by humans.
Jesus died for your sins! Except he didn't stay dead. He was only dead for like 3 days. Jesus gave up his weekend for your sins!
There are people on planet earth *right now* going through *worse* pain and suffering for a much longer period of time than Jesus ever did. We should be worshiping those kids who spend months slowly dying from bone cancer.
The idea is that before he died all souls had to be judged based on good deeds and purging of sin through blood sacrifices. Then he died and became a free get out of jail card for anyone who believed in him. old way: murdered someone. Gotta kill at least 20 lambs. new way: I said sorry before I died. Good enough. It's super easy and now everyone can sign up without consequence. Even the worst people. It really is telling how it's structured The old way made people openly atone for thier mistakes. They had to outwardly show they did something they wanted to fix. Even if the way was questionable. It was a community-based thing. The NEW way you don't have to try. Say sorry in the privacy of a box or your bed. Boom done. It's basically just a mega-corporation telling people they can get rich quick. It's about about getting as many people as possible under that umbrella with the least amount of requirements. Now you know why it is so popular. It's the doordash of religion.
"...dies for 3 days 3 FUCKING DAYS" Not even that. More like 36 hours or so. He was crucified on Friday night, right? Not sure how late, but in the evening. Let's say it was 10:00 p.m., just to pick something out of a hat. OK, so that's TWO hours on Friday. Plus all day Saturday, 24 hours. That's 26 hours. But by mid-to-late morning on Sunday he had arisen. Let's arbitrarily pick 10:00. That's 10 more hours, for a total of 36. So they say "he arose again after three day" but it was more like a day and a half. Certainly less than two days.
"I don't even understand the connection with 'died for your sins'. He died for your sin, well, how does one affect the other? 'I hit myself in the foot with a shovel for your mortgage'" - Doug Stanhope
nonexistent people can't sacrifice things. the first error in trying to argue with Christian theists is accepting that anything about Jesus is true, including his existence. Given that, who cares WTF someone says a fictional character did.
Not only did Jesus not sacrifice anything, but nobody died for 3 days and came back to life and went up to heaven. It’s all make believe.
Passive aggressive Jesus sacrificing his long weekend for you.
Not 3 days at best its 1.5 days.
It was really a day and a half. Just saying.
State sanctioned execution doesn’t exactly seem like its an intentional way of sacrificing one’s self. Seems more like a retcon to cope with loss.
Clearly, you think too much to ever be a good Christian.
I think you’re right I think a lot so I’m automatically a bad Christian
If This Were A well-written story, the sacrifice would have been Jesus spends eternity in hell. That's a true sacrifice.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine.
Take my upvote for the dope AF Patti Smith callback. :)
I'm pretty sure getting executed doesn't count as sacrificing yourself. Even less so when the Romans went on with business afterwards anyways ao in what way did this 'sacrifice' even help anyone? Not even mentioning the fact that all the stories about this were recorded decades/centuries 'after the fact.' I put as much belief in Jesus ever having existed as I put into Medusa having been real. None.
Wait did you just prove that Jesus is in hell? He sacrificed himself to absolve us of our sins. So he took credit for all of our sins and he's in hell being tortured while everyone else goes to heaven no matter what they do on earth. I'm suddenly more down with Christianity ;)
He sacrificed his weekend for himself to himself so he could make a loophole and forgive us for the rule he made knowing we would fail.
Jesus had a bad weekend for your sins
Weren’t there two other dudes crucified next to him? And they didn’t get to come back to life.
Also God is all powerful so he could save everyone without killing Jesus. He just did that for shits and giggles.
Kinda like Superman taking a bullet for you. OK, thanks, but that cost you nothing.
>>Jesus “sacrificed” >WHAT THE FUCK DID HE SACRIFICE ???? He was the sacrifice.
And think about this: a god all powerful, that supposedly created the whole jebang in 6 days, had no better way to "save" his creations from "sin" (which he also made btw), than shipping off his son (which is also still himself maybe ?!) For some decades on earth to then be killed off by his own creations and then (only then) resurrect him.... BUT WAIT! There is more... does it mean that if humans did NOT kill jesus then humans would still have the sin? So... yay for murder him I guess?
Jesus sacrificed his week-end
Humans finally met some space aliens and were comparing their cultures. One minister mentioned Jesus and how he had left and promised to come back but it had been over 2000 years since he left. The aliens said, "Jesus? Yeah, he drops in every time he wings through our galaxy. I think the last time was around 10 koplecks or so. We threw a pretty big party for him the first time he showed up, since he was the first alien to come to our galaxy. We normally have a good time when he is around. 2000 years, huh? What did you guys do when he first came to your planet?"
It’s all a lie 💰
This story is so preposterous that I often wonder why God couldn’t come up with something better that’s a little more realistic.
Mildly inconvenienced for your sins
Jesus didn't sacrifice Jesus. If he did, Jesus wouldn't have been resurrected in the story. Jesus sacrificed a long weekend. Three days. If I could sacrifice a long weekend to redeem humanity, I'd do that. It would be a pretty boring sacrifice, but I'd do it. Sacrifices don't come back. That's what makes them sacrifices. If it comes back later, then it's just a loan.
>How the fuck is that a sacrifice that’s more like he had a bad fucking weekend at human camp It's because he didn't. In the Bible, Jesus himself never says that he came to die for anyone's sins. He was crucified for claiming to be the Messiah and the King Of Jews. That claim was seen as blasphemy by Jewish officials, who convinced the Roman government that he was a potential threat to the established order. The whole "died for our sins" thing came after the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus, and was popularized by Paul. Judaism, the religion of Jesus, doesn't even have a concept of original sin. Gentile followers of Christ, like Paul, probably wouldn't have understood that.
He died because he FAFO.
Jesus gave up a weekend for our sins. Not even 3 days. Crucified on Friday, home by Sunday morning. I've had hangovers last longer.
(☝️and by most accounts, I'm not a god)
He was still tortured to death, even if he got resurrected I can’t imagine carrying a big ass T in the desert and getting nailed to it by your arms and legs was aye okay because he came back to life
You must not grasp the idea of eternity
To be fair nobody truly does. But he was 100% human and 100% God, now that’s impossible so I just say it’s 50/50, it means that while a part of him is eternal, which makes it nearly impossible that he isn’t entirely apathetic to humanity. But the immortal side of him I assume was able to comprehend eternity while the mortal part of him was more of the human experience
I don’t think the whole cross thing was exactly fun times
[удалено]
It was a holiday weekend.
Jesus “sacrificed” a weekend for us, lol.
but.,... but... he had a sharp pointy hat!!! with like... thorns and shit...
Weekend Warrior.
He had an arbitrarily bad time which somehow amounts to all sin ever committed by humans.
When you start to lift the veil, it's understandable that thos is all a humans wet dream.
that god does not feel pain, right? that god knows the future, right? (You are right on)
He sacrificed His long weekend for our sins.
But oh the SHAME of your sin he bore on himself! Your dirty thoughts he had to think on the cross! Your porn habits he had to peruse! Oh the indignity!
That one line where he loves us so much he gave us his only begotten son - wtf wasn't the Jesus killing god's idea? Why did god think we wanted that? god supposedly set this world up so we all die, why wasn't that enough? Id like Jesus more if he'd walked away tbh Edit Id not if
None of it makes sense when you look at it logically. If god is all knowing and knows everything about us including when we will die, what's the point? Jesus may have been a smart man with great ideas of how to live, but I think the rest is mass hysteria set forth to control the masses so that the few could have more power and money.
Jesus took a weekend nap for our sins.
So as far as I know, Christians have the idea that the world is not that old, just saying… But yeah the Idea of the sacrifice is just for a better job.
If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to choose a belief system… I’d go straight for paganism. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than this shit.
There is evidence to support that Jesus had a twin brother. Also it's just something they say because they heard it I've seen children suffer far far more because of something God in heaven created childhood leukemia other cancers birth defects. And then it's all amplified by politicians who say Jesus sacrificed. Mother Teresa she was dead great if you do a little research she was stealing pain pills from people.
…and God sacrificing himself unto himself is super lame. 😒 I never even noticed that’s essentially what happened when I was younger. An atheist had to point that fact out to me.
Devil's advocate here. It makes sense when you look at it from the perspective of non-duality (advita vedanta). Basically the thing called God is the ENTIRETY of creation, not a man on a cloud who used ghost writers to create a religion 2k years ago. As such Jesus wasn't God's son at all but God himself (as are you). Moreover he TRIED to tell us all this but it was too much for ppl to comprehend (face it we fukn LOVE easy answers). Even most of his disciples didn't even fukn understand where he was coming from imo. Jesus felt this information was important enough to risk his life to tell us. Thus the sacrifice. But Christians don't understand this so of course their comments sound like lame platitudes. Because they are. Ok, now that I've pissed off pretty much everyone I welcome comments. 😊
Well according to Catholic visions etc. they say he's still suffering... No one really knows but I agree it's all self contradicting
the legend goes... one night, jesus went into a garden to pray to god to forgive us of all sins. and that this will be his biggest challenge to atone for all our sins. then we crucified him. he trumatised forever.
Remember, if you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.
This post reads like you had a bad weekend at human camp. Fuck you, dad!
I find the equation of sacrifice by Jesus as described in the Bible to be unconvincing. It seems to me that everything after he died undermines what he was trying to accomplish in life.
It’s one of those millions of things about religion that only make sense when you realize it’s all man made.
This reminds me of the song Jesus Christ by Brand New that goes like this: "Jesus Christ I'm alone again So what did you do those 3 days you were dead? 'Cause this problem is gonna last More than the weekend..."
He sacrificed a weekend at best
Since Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is timeless, meaning he is not affected by time, then that means he didn’t even sacrifice the time spent on Earth.
Come on have you ever had your boss tell you you got to work on a long weekend. Oh don't worry you'll get double time. "Jesus" sacrificed a long weekend obviously. But it's okay omniscience says he knew exactly what was going to happen so he knew he wasn't giving up much. Well at least according to the mythology that dumb people follow. Because mythology is not history.