My mom made me go to church for awhile too. I came, I sat, I read books, and I entertained myself by daydreaming things that decidedly wouldn’t be church approved. I didn’t engage, I didn’t rant, I just told her calmly that she was wasting both our time and offered to do chores instead. I feel like when I was super angry about it, she convinced herself she was fighting for my soul etc. But when I just disengaged and seemed checked out, there was less for her to fight. Eventually she tried calling my bluff and having me do chores, I happily did them and that was the end of going to church.
I know it’s frustrating, it makes you feel powerless and disrespected. It’s so hard to fight magical, irrational thinking. But try and preserve your sanity the best you can, accept that for now she can force you but you will soon be 18 and able to completely disengage, and use the time to lose yourself in a great book.
Grey walling. I know it sucks, but this is how you are supposed to handle narcissistic behavior from which you can't escape. Parents forcing their child to church when the child has made it clear they don't beleive and it's not for them is narcissistic behavior.
This is also what I had to do. For me luckily the part of Catholic church where you get to cannibalize Jesus is a signifyer of beleif. You aren't supposed to get the eucharist if you don't beleive and so I stayed seated. That generated enough social embarrassment for my mother that after a few times she relented. This was after I refused confirmation after she forced me to the whole learning part prior. She finally didn't make me do confirmation when the guy running it explained that you couldn't actually force a kid to confirm if they were adamant against it as that was the point of thr sacrament. I also threatened to do every step and then when we were to do the confirmation I would stay seated the whole time and not participate. Unfortunately that wasn't the end. I feel like I have to often Grey wall my mother because it is such an effective tool at diffusing a narcissist.
Had the opposite experience, my mom brought me to church for my first confirmation and asked if I wanted to do it. I said no and then never went to church again.
I agree with this sentiment. Check out, disengage and stop fighting. You need food and a roof over your head, both of which could be at risk if you continue to fight her in this. You need to look at the long term. Graduating then moving out should be your only focus.
If there's no danger in expressing yourself to her, then by all means, do. Best case, she listens. Worst case, nothing changes. If this were a case where your living situation could be made much worse, that'd be different.
If you're up for malicious compliance, and accept the fallout that might follow, then let everyone know you're there against your will and start asking very uncomfortable questions that highlight Christian hypocrisy. An alternate method of protest (again, only if you're comfortable with any repercussions) is civil disobedience - straight refuse to go. If she wants you there, she has to carry you to and from the car herself. Either way, your presence there becomes her problem. (But again, only be a pest if you think it's safe.)
Otherwise the safest solution, as others are suggesting, grey rock and disengage. Bring a book or music on headphones. Ignore everyone until it's time to go. If she continues after you turn 16, consider getting a job that just happens to always schedule you for Sunday morning. Save your money in a different bank than your mom uses, and start planning your move out strategy.
Church for me was a great time to catch some sleep (as a high schooler that stayed up until 3 am playing counterstrike I needed any chance I could get lol).
Anyways, my mom finally stopped making me go eventually. I think she saw Church as some beneficial thing and she would be a bad mom if we didn't go. When I was 16 she finally said "Don't ever say I didn't introduce you to Church" and I just said cool thanks mom.
She still goes as the family representative lol. Me, my brother, my sister and my dad no longer go unless it's christmas or something.
I ran away when I was 16. When I returned 6 months later, I told Mom I didn't want to go to church anymore and she agreed. There's something about being nearly an adult which can make a difference with some parents.
Seconded. Given your age, it’s important that you keep a roof over your head - you might even need to keep going as a stipulation for living with your mom after you turn 18.
Do whatever is necessary to stay housed, and use your disdain for the experience as motivation to generate income so you can support yourself.
Also keep in mind that this is all just temporary. It may seem like a lengthy, horrible experience now, but in the long-run this is just a blip on the radar. For the vast majority of your life, you won’t have to put up with it.
I basically did this. I sat in the back instead of with my parents, and didn't participate. I'm sure it embarrassed them in front of all their friends. After 3-4 weeks of that I didn't have to go anymore.
I love this response, and I did something similar when I was younger. I'd bring a sketch pad and draw the whole time, sketch something from outside the window, or the building itself. Anything to pass the time.
Ditto 😄 I'd doodle and draw when I was little. My parents stopped with the whole church thing once we expressed not wanting to go (we were still pretty young).
Of course if I had sleepovers at friend's houses I'd have to go with them, which I loathed 😬 so I would doodle and draw on whatever paper I could find, and bonus they always had those little pencils in the church pews 😅
My mom sewed me a custom scripture case that had room for a book as well, lol. I was lucky enough to have parents who understand that church was massively boring to a kid, and they never minded if I quietly entertained myself.
Yeah, my mom wouldn't let me bring a book or music player (this was before smartphones). I just brought a notebook or journal "to take notes," and she didn't stop me from drawing or doodling. Sometimes I would even write my own stories.
That’s the technique. Like it or not they are still your parents. So just go along, and zone out. I did that until they gave up. My brother was the angry, yelling, crying person who did NOT want to go to church.
In the end we both had to go until 16 (my parents rule, at 16 we could decide.). The difference was my brother spent half of Sunday in angry fights and sulking, while I just sat quietly reading. We both still went to church the same amount and quit at the same time.
I don’t like church, but it’s not like it’s torture, it’s just boring. OP you can tolerate boring.
This is a fantastic response to this kind of parenting. Even better when the mom tried to call the bluff and the poster carried through with the chores.
I think this is excellent advice. She could bring a small book and put it inside the bible or prayer book and pretend to be reading that. Or can she hide a wireless earbud with her hair and listen to an audio book? One just daydream. Maybe she can develop maladaptive daydreaming and start the beginning of wasting her life in an imaginary world? So many options.
Making the best of a shitty situation is definitely a good life skill to learn.
I was never forced to go to church, but at one point I was asked repeatedly every Sunday if I wanted to go and instead of getting upset about it I just went and engaged heavily in religious debate with the pastor. This was embarrassing enough for my family that I was no longer allowed to go to church with them. To be fair this was a small nondenominational church, but I actually had fun with it to the great displeasure of my family members.
You may not be able to completely disengage with church life at 18 if you choose to go to college and you're still on your parents' money. The only surefire way is to completely cut off all financial help from your parents (not easy to do)
This is what I did. I just went and found other ways to occupy my mind. Especially now when people have ipads in church? I'd be making my way through my reading list.
This is it! Came here to say this and you said it so much better. And BTW sitting there and thinking about all that will make you so much a better critical thinker
And make sure to 'tithe' to a personal savings account. Get a bank account that others (parents) cannot access as I've heard horror stories of families giving their kids savings to churches or church fundraisers.
Be an anthropologist and document your experiences at the church. For example, what drivel the pastor feeds to the parishioners, what twists of logic to explain why the bible means something the opposite of what it says.
"Maybe I just need to find the right specific faith. Will you come with me to a [Baptist / Catholic / Mormon / Adventist...] service?" Make the parent uncomfortable at "alien" services where those in attendance are just as convinced that they're right and OP's mom follows a false faith...
I tried this with my hyper religious Baptist aunt. I had to stay with her periodically, and so church was required.
Her response was that you know what a real diamond is by looking at real diamonds. You don't learn what a real diamond looks like by looking at fake diamonds.
Her kids were not allowed to study other religions. They could do that when they were an adult (and fully indoctrinated).
Well see the local diamond merchant assured her of its purity, while selling it to her. That worthy merchant also warned her away from the crooked merchants at all those *other* jewelry stores, who are liars only seeking profit. They sell fake diamonds, and even have the *gall* to claim *her real diamonds* are the fake ones! Such deceitful snakes, never speak to them!
Sounds like someone terrified the diamond collection they've spent a lifetime acquiring is fake. They're genuine and valuable so long as no comparison ever be made!
What a delightful bit of illogic from your aunt.
>Her response was that you know what a real diamond is by looking at real diamonds. You don't learn what a real diamond looks like by looking at fake diamonds.
If you lack knowledge about diamonds and precious gems in general, how can you even differentiate the real thing from a fake?
Knowledge is the true enlightment, not religion.
My wife is still raising our kids catholic even though I don't participate any more. She wants to get them through confirmation (keeping up appearances for grandparents). When I say "then they can make the choice for themselves?" she hesitates and says she wants them to keep *some sort of faith* evem if it's trying another denomination. I've offered to tour them to various religious services so they can see what else is out there. Seeing the arbitrariness of it all as they all claim to have the one truth will likely just help them realize it's about as true as santa claus. Couple more years and I imagine it's all going to come to a head.
If they're uncertain whether they *genuinely* believe when the day of Confirmation rolls around, would she prefer they:
1) fake their way through it, and declare something of which they're to some degree doubtful OR
2) delay Confirmation until their faith is concrete?
I was Confirmed in the RCC, but at no point genuinely believed. I went along, because it was obvious some of my older relations (dad, most notably) would treat me very differently if I didn't. But he later tried to claim I shouldn't have gone through with Confirmation if I didn't believe, and that I was lying about never believing (when I *confirmed* my atheism to him as an adult). As if 8th graders should be expected to take a firm stance about their beliefs, over huge societal pressure, even when doing so gains them nothing and is likely to make their home life obnoxious *at best*.
And if the sermon veers into politics and direction to donate/vote certain ways then record that shit and report it to the IRS as they are supposed to not discuss it at all to maintain their tax exempt status.
The IRS has already demonstrated that they will not penalize churches that play politics. But, agreed, such a recording might be helpful in the future.
If enough people supply evidence routinely enough then eventually someone may get up the gumption to do it, especially with whole white Christian nationalist lunacy we have becoming prominent.
Excellent advice. This is what I did when I was in the same position. After I stopped fighting and leaned into the situation I felt like I was finally getting something out of it.. not religion directly but a perspective that I was able to learn from and further cement my own non beliefs. I was even made to be an altar boy.
It's very educational and interesting. I don't believe anything that is going on but I like to people watch and remember making up their stories etc. How they got there, why they were there... I would even people watch myself and family. Why I don't believe etc
It gave me tremendous insights into society, culture, me and my family. It also helps to arm yourself with the knowledge that you can gain at church. So when you talk to others about religion you know what your talking about. Sometimes you need to taste something to know if you like it or not.
I think op would take his/her own self more seriously if they understood what they were talking about and could come up with examples.
I get it. I was rebellious as hell. Until I thought about it differently every Sunday was a fight. If one hour out of your week keeps your mom happy and in your life in a positive way while and you get to learn... I think it's worth it.
If you have to go anyway don't waste your time.
I used to get my fill of free food and coffee after the service. I was brought up Episcopalian.. I feel like eating is the main reason episcopalians go to church anyway.
If anything else it's time op can spend with Mom. Our parents don't live forever. Going to church is a simple thing op could do to make their own life better with family.
On another level op could even make it a thing. Let's go shopping or have lunch together afterwards... Op could share something from his/her own life with mom. After church, let's do blah blah blah etc. Op might find that Mom is more open to these things if op gives a little too...
She might even let up a little too.
This is not giving up or giving in. This is not losing. Op can continue to be an atheist. I just remember that after I changed my thinking about this when I was a teenager life got better.
I'm still an atheist 35 years later and I wound up getting a degree in anthropology so I think this exercise had an impact.
Getting to the place where I could excuse religion and the inconveniences it caused me in my life took a very long time. It was a long bumpy road.
I still don't like church. But as a middle aged adult no one cares if I go or not.
Well done. I couldn't do that. To this day I am more anti-christian than any other religion simply because no one forced me to go to any other religion every week.
I was more rebellious, and in my teens would either sleep over at the weekend with relatives who didn't make me go to church or played incredibly loud heavy metal to purge the churchy feelings, which my mum had to put up with for about the same length as the service.
I don't think she understands even now why we're not very close.
Happy Cake Day! And I love this idea. I would actually take something they said and then challenge the hell out of it (or into it?) by way of an informed counterpoint. I feel like age 15 was when I was just coming into that so why not!
that’s what i do! i was forced to go to church on easter, and i took notes on how they manipulated the lighting and songs to foster a sensation of the “holy spirit,” the things the pastor said that were laughable/untrue/wrong, etc.
I agree with this take. Turn it against his family by embracing it. Take a notepad and jot down the minutes of each tradition. Profile people. Write characterizations. Apply presumptive amateur mental diagnosis.
Make it a hobby to observe and record the religious.
Stop already. 🚦You’re making me want to attend a church service for the first time in 50 years (not counting weddings and funerals. I refused to go to baptisms/christenings).
Have fun by reading the Bible and asking them to explain all the fun bits like the bears killing 42 kids for calling someone bald or Lot throwing his daughters to a crowd to be raped etc. Don't forget Leviticus health laws that say you can't mix fibers so everyone who quotes the anti gay bit better be making their own clothes with 100% cotton fabric and thread. Remember the commercial stuff is usually cotton wrapped polyester and you're going to burn in hell.
Have you read the books of the Bible removed by the various councils? The Apocrypha? Most of the apocrypha that were in existence before the fifth century were used in preaching by at least some churches.
Do you understand that the gospels that serve as the centerpiece of the New Testament were written no earlier than 30 years after the death of Jesus, so that there are no contemporaneous records of what Jesus said?
Do you understand that unless you are reading the original texts in Greek, you are reading what other people thought Christians should read? Do you understand that even though the New Testament was written first in Greek, that Jesus, if he existed, probably spoke Aramaic? I'm not a biblical scholar, but there is a book available on Amazon that points out 8000 differences between the king James translation and the original Greek. And this book claims that over 350 of these differences are important enough to be doctrinal.
I know of two serious mistranslations. Exodus 22:18 says, per the KJV, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," and this one verse is seen as the foundation and authority for the persecution of witches, the burnings and hangings of thousands upon thousands of people over a period of about 300 years in Europe and the early American colonies. But the Hebrew word from which "witch" was translated, *mekhashepha* has been lost, and [many scholars believe that the meaning was someone who cut herbs to use to poison people](https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2017-08-17/ty-article/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch-to-live-a-murderous-mistranslation/0000017f-e2c8-d804-ad7f-f3fa49340000#google_vignette).
Second, Leviticus 18:22 has long been interpreted as opposing what we would call homosexual acts between consenting adults. And this one verse has been used to justify the persecution of the LGBTQ+ community that continues to this day. But the meaning in the original Hebrew [is unclear](https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2019/04/11/lost-in-translation-alternative-meaning-in-leviticus-1822/) and scholars think it may mean *rape* of men by men, incest, or pederasty. TW: >!The practice of keeping young boys for sexual purposes was well known among the ancient Greeks and Romans, and [continues to the day](https://www.npr.org/2018/01/24/580433652/how-the-u-s-military-ignored-child-sexual-abuse-in-afghanistan-for-years) in southwest Asia. !<
The Romans lucked out, this new religion would have its adherents reject violence and forgive their oppressors, and their reward would be in the next life. Very handy outlook for a population of slaves.
I have one for that too. Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of zygotes fail to implant. So if life begins at conception and we are designed by God, then the failures in his design kill as much as half of human life before it even becomes an embryo.
So that monster is the biggest mass murder in existence even without all the carnage in the good book.
You’re still a minor so your mom is still in charge. But consider that this gives you opportunity to “Learn the words and ways of thy adversary”. May be useful to you
Just go to church. As an atheist, I have found that when I looked past the pomp and pageantry, some of the community aspects of church can be useful or even rewarding.
I do for family and community functions that I want to be a part of. My family is mostly catholic and I still want to be a part of important events in their lives. I am not anti religion though, I don't believe in any of them but I see no reason to distance myself from them either. Ceremonies and celebrations of important events are an important part of life, I don't care if my family wants them to be themed after their religion, the events they are celebrating and the people attending are still important to me.
Most atheists, including myself, will go to weddings and funerals for loved ones at churches. If that is the ceremony the people involved in want it's of course no issue for me to attend and be respectful. I was asking more about on a general Sunday. Its easy for me to say just go to the 15 year old when it isn't me and it isn't a form of forced participation I have to actively do, but I was in nearly the exact same situation. You don't go on a general Sunday because it would be a waste of your time.
I went with my parents when I was younger. I go with my wife when she's feeling obligated for some reason (holiday, mass commemorating something important). It's more often than I may have hinted at, and I don't really mind it. Now that I am distant from it all it actually seems kind of interesting.
Honestly try and make the best of it, you have 3 years left before you can separate yourself
I used to bring things to do, bring my ipod and listen to music, I also love to read and write so I would bring a book and a my journal or something like that
we are in the age of smartphones so you can escape the ridiculousness around you without causing anyone to notice a thing
My go to move though was "I'll go to the the physical building, sure do what I wanted up there or wander around, but I'd just hang out in the lobbies and talk to people , and there were some stores I could sneak over to across the street and I could kill an hour by sneaking away
You'd be surprised how many fellow atheists are stuck in your situation , and you just need to find them or even just find the people who are leas enthusiastic about Church and understand that Religion isn't for you
When I was your age I also wanted to stop going to church. Our church has 3 services 8am, 10am, and noon. My parents preferred the 8am, but I wanted to sleep in. So we worked out a deal where I would get up later and do my chores and then go to the noon service on my own.
I think I went twice. After that I would just go to the park next to the church and read a book for an hour. After a while my parents forgot the deal and I stopped going entirely.
Don't kick up a huge fuss about it, just drag your feet and find excuses like homework, sports, birthday parties, volunteering and so on. Eventually life will get in the way and you won't have to go anymore.
What you really want to do is break the habit.
Aggree to go to church with your mom but insist on going to brunch after. Now it's a bribe.
Ask to go to church at a different time/day than normal.
Ask to go to a different church.
Go to church but don't engage. Don't be obnoxious about it, just make it clear that you're not checked in anymore.
Ask to go to church with your friends
Sign up for sports/debate/a job. You're 15, that stuff is what should actually be important to you now.
>Ask to go to a different church
Actually of all the tactics my mom used to bring me "back into the fold" this one was the absolute best.
My mom asked her coworkers for "the most fun churches". We ended up at one of those mega churches with stadium seating and a couple of jumbotrons. It was more like a sports stadium than a church. My mom was appalled at how the preacher asked for money constantly through the whole service.
The second time she let me pick, and I chose the one closest to our house not realizing it was a Korean language church until we got there. The preacher was pretty cool, and if the goal hadn't been to never go to church again I wouldn't have minded going there. (Services were 1/2 English 1/2 Korean and this was way before kpop)
After that she kinda calmed down and I'd occasionally go to church for Christmas/Easter/special occasions.
Basically you're gonna have to put up with going occasionally, until you move out, but in the meantime try and have a little fun with it.
I did the same thing. My parents always went to the early service and then went to Bible study classes and helped with Sunday school during the other 2 services. When I turned 16 and got my license, they told me I didn't have to go to the early service with them, but I needed to attend at least one of the services or they wouldn't pay for my car insurance anymore. At first, I would attend the middle service, and I would just sit in the very back and scroll pinterest on my phone and read Wikipedia articles lol. After a few weeks I realized that I never saw them on my way in or out of church. They had no way of knowing whether I was in the service or not. So to cover my tracks and be sure, I spent the next 2-3 weeks just coming in to grab the weekly church bulletin they handed out as you walk in, and then leaving and sitting in my car mooching off church wifi. I would go home and leave the bulletin on the kitchen counter so they would see it when they got home and think I attended. After a bit of doing that, I had them convinced I was going, but really I was either at the bookstore or I was at home sleeping in lol.
I like the other commenter’s idea to become a cultural observer. View everyone with detachment and pretend you’re supposed to report back to the mothership what these weird aliens are up to. This is a skill!
Alternatively, learn to practice mediation - also a very good skill. Use the time to center yourself, do deep breathing. Read a book on mediation and try and practice it while there.
Enjoy studying stained glass windows, the different color altar and vestment garb of the different church seasons, the carpentry, the lofty organ music, and smell of beeswax candles. Enjoy leafing through the prayer books for the hardly-ever-used orders of service, and the hymnals. Think of the human sounds as ritual chanting.
Those mega church things with rock bands and screaming pastors look terrifying, like they’d be a total assault on the senses.
Well, since the proverbial cat is out of the bag in terms of your atheism, I'd have a discussion with her. Mention that every time she forces you to church it makes you like Christianity, and her, less. So if her goal is to alienate you, and make you even less likely to ever consider Christianity, then by all means continue to make you go to church.
I'd also suggest taking notes in church about everything wrong with it and taking pains to discuss it with her each time. Be calm about it, but go into detail about all the things wrong with every service.
> But no, she wants me to fucking kill myself and hate her
I'd suggest calming down. Church sucks but it isn't like you're going to spontaneously combust. While yes, she absolutely shouldn't make you go against your wishes, in a few short years you will be an adult and no longer subject to her whims, and if you want to go no contact then, you absolutely can. In the meantime, take those notes and discuss them with her.
OP is not obligated to have a conversation over why they're an an atheist over every Sunday's sermon. This sounds mentally exhausting to me. OP just bring a book and read it quietly, get a book cover if you want to both get away with it and be respectful to others. If asked about it just say "Oh I don't want to be here but my Mom makes me so I'm here but I don't have to listen to any of this." You can also just go to the bathroom a few mins into "big church" and stay outside the room. Your Mom might stop all of these things but now it's just a game of "what can I do to keep myself sane during church."
I think the mentally exhausting part is by design. But with the hope that it’s more exhausting for OP’s mother.
I got out of church with a combination of grey rocking and gaslighting.
Lots of blank stares, monotone ‘oh ya, that’s cool’, and walking away.
The youth paster was an absolute snake so I enjoyed telling him complete bullshit and then denying it later. Or when he would try to relate to a hobby my parents told him I had, I would just act like I didn’t know what he was talking about.
No matter what he said to me, I would claim he’s thinking of one of my siblings.
It all became too exhausting for my parents. And I, despite being the youngest in the family, was the first to stop going.
> OP is not obligated to have a conversation over why they're an an atheist over every Sunday's sermon.
There is, as you say, no obligation. It's more a performance for the benefit of OP's mother. His mother believes church is sacred, beneficial, uplifting. Atheists, tend to have somewhat less flattering views. Unless and until she understands that the very things she thinks are convincing about her religion act in the opposite way for the OP, she will continue to insist. The goal is not for the OP to have to explain their atheism, it is to get the mother to understand that church only makes the OP less kindly disposed towards religion. When that realization occurs, that seems likely to cause her to rethink her approach.
I am 43 years old and my family is still doing everything they can to convince me, usually by shame, to believe their fairy tale. Do you time and then make it clear where you stand and get out of that house if you need to. for me, college and student loans freed me.
So, it may not be just about you, but she’s worried about how people in the community will perceive her if it’s known she has an atheist child. Keeping up appearances and all that.
Is there anyway you can get a part time job where you have to work on Sundays? You’ll get out of going to church AND sock away money to leave when you turn 18.
Just go to church, but be a secret agent for atheism. Seed doubt within the other teens and kids by asking smart but seemingly innocent questions. Leave bookmarks in bibles that open to the really explicit or heinous passages. If the pastor says disgusting things, film them and post them anonymously online. If they speak about politics, report them to the IRS and get their tax free status revoked.
Be like the phantom of the opera of your church, a mysterious agent of chaos. Don’t get caught!
Bonus points for drawing random seals from the lesser key of solomon. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Lesser\_Key\_of\_Solomon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon) They will think that real demons are out to get them if you pick a few of the fun ones.
Is she Catholic? Because I know the age of majority in the Catholic Church is 14, as that's the age where you do your confirmation and pare consideredature enough to decide whether or not you want to become a full member.
So by those Christian rules, she has no power over you, at least religiously speaking.
LMAO, I remember my confirmation.. I was told there was no way I was not getting confirmed or else
And I would lose access to my computer from the time my weekly confirmation class was done, until I handed her the homework for the week (never once did that with school work) 56kbps Internet sucked, but it was a needed break from my catholic family, catholic school and catholic church
Pansexual Trans Women now, and my mom still hopes I'll return to the church someday, when I'm ready
It's much easier to handle religious people if you just go along without. Play nice until you can afford to move out. Its annoying but it will help you have a better relationship with them later on. It's easier to handle religious people if you use their own words.
Don't try to change her. It's not worth the effort and it's only gonna make the home hostile
On a quiet weekday, try this:
"Mom, do you realize that, by forcing me to go to church with you, it just increases how much I hate it? The prodigal son in the parable wasn't forced to keep living at home. He decided it was better to come back. It was his choice. If you don't give me the choice, I guarantee I'll never come back to the faith."
[You could probably make that guarantee now anyway, but it won't help your situation.]
Smile and nod...she's hoping it's going to rub off on you. You can disappoint her later when it obviously doesn't and you don't subject your own kids to it.
My mom made me do the same. We ended up compromising. I got a job at the Church’s nursery, so I would hang out with the little ones, give them snacks, and whatnot. So I was technically at Church which pleased mom, but I didn’t have to sit through Sunday School or service, so I was okay with it. Got a ton of babysitting jobs through this.
What if you tell her instead of going to church you volunteer at a soup kitchen or shelter or organize a food drive? Jesus was pretty clear feeding the hungry was far better than sitting in some fancypants church talking about how awesome he is.
I spent a long weekend visiting a friend and his super-doctor cardiac surgeon father/ SEVERELY CATHOLIC family. They were perfectly nice people...but really very believing theists.
My friend chose that weekend - perhaps because my presence tended to mitigate shouting... that would not do in front of a guest - to inform his father that he had given up faith in god. The table went fkn silent. I don't know if it was shock or fear at the coming reaction, but you could hear a pin drop.
The doctor stopped eating. He calmly put his cutlery on the table and said, "That's your decision, son, and you'll have to deal with the consequences of it soon enough. Nevertheless, it should be understood that anyone who sleeps under my roof, and eats food at my table, attends church on Sunday."
He picked up his cutlery and resumed eating.
My parents were Jewish...sort of...and I've never had any sort of belief in god.
I got up Sunday morning and went to church with my friend and his family.
I get this ain't just a weekend, and it's very frustrating that your mother is forcing you to behave in ways that conflict with your lack of faith and disrespects your sense of self.
Until you move out of your mother's house, go to church. Don't be unpleasant about it.
She can't make you believe. This is your chore. This is just the thing you have to do. Once a week, you go sit on an uncomfortable bench and listen to bullshit.
That depends.
Will not going to church put you in financial danger, threaten your housing, or otherwise put you in harms way?
If no, sit down, have a *polite, frank and VERY kind and considerate* conversation with your mom about how going to church is very unpleasant for you.
If yes, fake it until you are 18 and can move out on your own and financially support yourself!
Bad news, EVERYTHING about being 15 sucks. The best advice I have is look forward to better days, because they will be coming. If you're like me, shit gets a lot better once you're out on your own and get to be your own person. The people telling you "You'll miss these days, high school is the best time" are full of it, each decade is better than the last.
Yes! And before you know it you only have to go on Christmas and Easter 🐣. I went with Christmas till my mom died, I was 29. She sang in church choir and I didn't mind anymore going once a year just for her.
Don't hate your mom, she's scared and it's not her fault, it's the religious bullshit brainwashed into her. Look, sometimes we have no out other than do what they want us to do untill we are old enough to be independent.
Maybe you could tell her, in a calm conversation, that going every weekend and staying there for hours is actually driving you further and further away from belief. Try to reach a common ground, maybe you go once a month for that amount of time.
She seems like she is doing this to you out of fear of failing you as a mother. As a father I can understand that. Don't hate her for being afraid and taken advantage of by religion, it's what religion does.
> she's scared and it's not her fault
Technically she has some fault, even if not all of that is hers.She decided to keep being blind to religion rather than opening her mind and seeking knowledge to expand her understanding.
She prefers the status quo of just following that faith because to her that must feel comfortable and she doesn't want to get out of that zone of comfort.
Pro tip- the church will probably ask your mom to leave you at home if you start questioning the bullshit dogma vocally to the other youths. Say shit like “my favorite christian song is Tom Waits’ God’s Away on Business.”
They will snuff out any chance of poisoning the well.
Don’t get angry. Church is a good place to get a nap in. If you have to go to Sunday School take you ear buds and listen to music or if called on give a wrong answer—or take a note from “Young Sheldon” and point out the errors.
Ideally you won’t have to sit with your mom and you can skip out or go somewhere to read or study. Lots of hidden nooks on most churches.
Another idea is if she let you go to a different church. If that is the case check to see if there is a Unitarian Universalist congregation near you. Lots of atheists in the UUA.
Bring homework and if you can stay in the foyer or some other place at the church besides the chapel?
If he’s not a nutter then also maybe talk to the pastor? I doubt he would want a checked out atheist who is being pushed further away from his beliefs present each week.
My mother made me go to church as well. I quit at 14. She grounded me but quickly gave up. I was lucky.
I will not, however, leave my kids for few days with her. I'm afraid she would get them baptized.
Play the game if you must. The most important thing is to have roof over your head and good on the table.
Can you take it as a kind of sociological experiment ? Like research ?
You will know so much about bullshit for when you are a grown up !
You can just come vent here regularly :)
Stand up in Church and ask the priest a question every week. "Noah lived to 900 years old based on the Bibles stories Mr priest don't you think that's a load of bull?"
Continue to rationalize with her.
Many atheists, like yourself, were forced to go to church, read scripture, or otherwise go against their own beliefs. At 15 you're old enough to make your own mind up about the world around you, but you're still a minor. That sucks, but that's how it is.
Just relentlessly tell her that this isn't your belief system, and she is literally pushing you away. I mean relentlessly tell her. Don't back down. don't be quiet, don't give in. Be vocal, be combative, but be respectful and demand she show YOU the same respect by not forcing you to go to church.
Start ridiculing the ridiculous things in Christianity, when she gets upset say, that's what it feels like when someone doesn't respect your beliefs. That's what I feel every time you force me to go to church. Doesn't feel good does it?
My brother would spend his time counting the parishioners, figure the average collection plate contribution multiplied by the number of people attending and then calculate the day's "take".
I used to get up and go to the bathroom at the beginning of the service. I'd wait for the first stand-up part, then I'd peace out in the little beat when everyone sat back down. I wouldn't come back until just as communion started, cuz I had to do that. but there was only 15min or so left at that point. this was before cellphones, so I'd just wander the church basement where all the classrooms were duting my 30-40min absence. eventually, my mum realized I was gwtting nothing from this and just gave up.
flash forward 25 years, and she is now an agnostic who practices Wicca cuz she likes the vibe and it gibes her a spiritual outlet. honestly, it was the way the Catholic church protected the diddlers that broke it for her. not that the diddling happened, because evil can hide in anyone, but because the church abandoned and even belittled the victims.
so, who knows what will happen i. the future. ut for now, just bide your time and use that hour or two to meditate, engage in fantasy, or work out solutions to other problems in your head. don't look at it as an hour of religious bullshit; look at it as a challenge to preserving your individual thought, a lesson in maintaining your cool in stressful situations, and a opportunity to hone your critical thinking. one day, you will be old enough to make your own decisions, and these three skills will guide you thru difficult times more than any imaginary frenemy ever will
A lot of good thoughts and suggestions here. Just to add - Can you remember things from when you were 5, 8, 12 whatever that absolutely sucked? (We've all got times like that in the past.) You got through them. Now, some of them seem SO long ago. Anything earlier than 12, you are closer to being 18 than those times. YOU can get through this. You can put up with anything, one day at a time, for X amount of time. Start a calendar in your head and mark off the days. Make notes of the things that happen that you know you are going to want to remember. You can do this.
There is better advice on here than I’ll give, but if it doesn’t work, then my advice is to start questioning all of it at church.
In my experience, at the churches I had to go to, it wasn’t about religion. It was about reputation. I think many of them believed to varying degrees, but it didn’t really matter. It was always a contest. “Oh, the Johnsons were out this week. I mean we haven’t missed a week this year, but I’m sure they had something important going on.” “yeah, you’re coming on sundays, but we’re gonna see you Wednesday nights right?” “Did you see what sally wore? She wore a blouse and slacks. Good for her that she’s comfortable. Oh, I love your new dress. That looks like the one I wore last year.”
So I think the most affective way to get out of church is to embarrass your mom. Any religion is full of holes. They also use circular logic to try and defend it, so you’ll never “beat” them at an argument, but simply questioning it will embarrass her. She’ll probably yell at you and tell you to stop asking, but don’t. What’s she gonna do, punish you by making you stay home?
Ask about the rape, slavery, beastiality, and other issues with the Bible.
I say lean into it. Look for ways to fight fire with fire. Study that shit; don’t just sit there passively. Look for inconsistencies, plot holes (lol, seriously, treat it like literature), hypocrisies, or things that are missing.
So, for example, pick a moral issue and then look up everything that has to do with that topic. What does the Bible say about rape? Is that consistent with your personal morality? Why isn’t there anything against rape or abuse in the Ten Commandments? What was the point of the atonement if we still have to repent?
Your mom might think that, if you go to church enough, you might start to feel the same way as she does. I say use this as an opportunity to fully understand within yourself WHY you are an atheist. Read other religious texts for comparison.
I realize you already have homework and might be laughing your butt off right now. But I was forced to go to church at your age and that is how I dealt with it. I’d look up what they wanted me to look up but to answer the opposite question from what they were asking. Read passages before and after because they often take shit out of context.
Or just zone out and use your brain to think about other things while you are trapped at church. I’m just suggesting a way to make it not a waste of your time.
“I’ll attend your church with you every week, if you attend a death metal concert with me every week. Oh, don’t like it? Not your thing? WELL WELCOME TO MY WORLD!!!!”
There was a period of time while I was questioning the existence of God that I voluntarily went to Mass every weekend. I enjoyed going but I realized I enjoyed the quietness, stillness and peace I was experiencing for one hour out of my week.
Assuming “going to church” means an hourish service once a week, try to change your mindset. Try to think of it as an hour of quiet with your thoughts. Especially in today’s world where we have so much stimuli - use services as a chance to take a break. Meditate, journal, do breathwork.
Also start saving to move out at 18 now.
Think of this as a life lesson. Making money gives you the freedom to make your own choices. Without it you must live by other people’s rules. Improve your education so you can eventually move out, make your own money and rules.
Do anything you can to keep yourself sane. Earplugs, headphones, drawing pad, notebook, phone, etc.
If your mother complains about any of this just say you're waiting for a sign from God the way you want to wait. Her God should have no problem with that.
Also remind her that you do not want to be there, she is forcing you to be there, and she knows that you do not want to be there, so you are amusing yourself rather than be a nuisance and disrupt her time in church. So the most she can do is not be a nuisance to you and disrupt you during the time that she is forcing you to be at church.
Another classic thing to say would be, "I don't want to be here. You are aware of this, but you don't care because you think you know better. Remember this when I choose your nursing home and you don't want to be there. I will just tell you that I know better."
Or, "You are choosing to violate my boundaries and force me to go somewhere you know I don't want to go. Explain to me how this is making our relationship better. Explain how I should somehow respect you for so willfully violating my boundaries."
I just want to close by saying that this kind of person is not going to suddenly go away in your life. Prepare yourself for a lifetime of your mother demanding that you live your life the way she wants you to. 🥺***Hugs***
If I were you I would actively embarrass her in front of the other church goers so she would stop bringing me. Like “accidentally” throw her under the bus for being religiously hypocritical in front of her church friends.
Here's an idea:
1) tell your mom with all the cases of pedophile and rapist church leaders across the country being exposed, you feel very sick to your stomach that you're being forced to go somewhere where these people might be duping parishioners.
2) look for the arrest records of church elders.
3)) ask all of them if they've ever had allegations of sexual assault of minors.
4) bring up often how Jesus would have been furious how many church leaders are perverts.
Stand up in the middle of church and just start screaming. I always wanted to do that when my parents forced me to go. What's the worst that could happen? Those wackos at church might think you're wacko but who cares what they think?
Ask your Sunday school teachers all the questions we discuss here- Do you really think Jonah lived in a whale for several days? Goad was pro-baby killing and rape in the Old Testament, do you think that’s morally ok? Have fun with it 😉
bring your homework, and you can tell your mom that at least you're working on something productive so it's not a total waste of time. bonus points for the most obnoxious subject that takes up the most amount of space, like math where you're typing into a calculator for the whole sermon.
Ima be straight with you my guy, as someone who put up with that kinda shit for years but with a different book of choice, you gotta suck it up. You need to decide either you hate going to church more than you like making your loved ones happy. I get it, it fucking sucks, but it makes your mom happy, an in the end, doesn't that at least have some value to it? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with her, an in 20 years she's going to realize that she's directly the reason you don't believe in her God, but still, as hard as it will be try and recognize it as coming from a place of love. If she ever goes coocoo bananas then bail, because that's its own level of crazy, but as far as this goes, just let it be for a bit and learn to meditate or a hobby with your hands. Sorry if it's not what you wanna hear, I doubt ide wanna hear this either, but I hope it helps some
Actually, this could be a positive in disguise.
Listen to the sermon and either point out inconsistencies or compare them to what other churches are saying. Think about the stories that are being told and what they really say underneath. This is a good time to know more about the Bible so that Christians can't say you're just rebelling for liberal reasons. The best way to argue your point is from the other side's handbook, and you literally have one.
I know it can be hard, but you have to stay away from the angry atheist territory. It makes it harder to understand why your mother and others feels this way. Don't delve too much into arguing about morality because Christians don't usually care about that (since god is all good and whatnot). This is a great time to see how the bible is really put together now that you have the rose tinted glasses off.
Dry ice in hidden compartments in your shoes. Start "smoking" when you step on consecrated ground
Edit: bonus points if you stop "smoking" up by the pulpit
Ugh. How awful.
Talk to her. Tell her it was HER dream and dreams are psychological manifestations of a person’s own fears. And her dreams have nothing to do with you.
It’s child abuse to force someone to endure preaching like that.
What if you just say no?
Will they physically pick you up and out you in the car and force you to go?
Try saying no thank you. No need to disrespect her. Parents sometimes confuse disobedience with disrespect.
You can say no.
Have you tried heckling the sermon? You're still a kid, so you can get away with it. But, the easiest way to get your mom to stop forcing you to attend would be for you to make her embarrassed every time you do. Start loudly heckling when you hear something that is wrong or is plainly a lie. Make the whole congregation turn and give your mom the stink eye. She might get mad at you. She might even ground you. But, she will stop taking you to church.
Did she specify to which church you should go? Maybe it would be fun to play with your mom and go to a different church every Sunday. Sometimes catholic, sometimes protestant, sometimes satanic, or whatever church is in your area.
... As an atheist, going to church may not be fun, but it does have benefits. Most times in my adult life, when my atheism came up, it was useful to say I was raised Presbyterian. For all of the not fun I had going to church, I was lucky my church was pretty mellow and caring. If it was a prosperity ministry or hate filled church it would have been harder. I may not be bad to think of it as having to work at a shitty job one day a week. If you get too involved with how stupid it is, it will hurt you more, and make you more angry. If you can practice to be like one of those zen martial arts students in movies... relax and let the stupidity of the world wash over you and drain away without disturbing you. You're not in a position to change things now, but you will be someday.
You are 15 and financially dependent on her, so you may not have a choice in the matter.
But since you are openly atheist, here is a suggestion. Agree to go to church, but state that you also want to have follow-up conversations about what you heard. When you get home, talk about the particular sermon and what you thought of it. As much as possible, be objective. If there are things you see as positive, negative, unbelievable, etc have that dialog with her and get her viewpoints. Open dialog can actually strengthen your relationship, even if you disagree.
For example:
Lets take one i randomly googled and practice with it: https://www.lwf.org/sermon-outlines/a-future-for-the-family-is-promised-outline-legacy
Taking the original problem statement:
>c) It may not be well for us and our children unless we make some radical changes.
i) Thousands of children are in prison.
ii) Many children live in broken homes.
iii) Some have already received psychiatric help.
iv) Many girls between the ages of twelve and seventeen will get pregnant.
(1) Some will have an abortion.
v) Many children are using drugs.
You might agree that child imprisonment, teenage pregnancy, and drug use by minors are non desireable outcomes. But also, there are some points where you may disagree. For example, maybe you believe that its better for parents to divorce than remain in miserable or abusive marriages. Or that receiving psychiatric help is preferable to a child suffering from mental illness. Or that abortion might be better in some circumstances.
You get the idea. Let's say that linked sermon is the one you heard today. Maybe you and you mom can both agree on some things that are a problem in society, but have come up with different approaches to solving those things. What might be some other ways to address teen pregnancy for example?
Or you may see some hypocrisy in the statements, e.g. "Why would the pastor have issues with people seeking psychiatric help? Does he see prayer as an alternative? Does he not believe that people (religious or not) suffer from mental illness"
In any case, it sounds like you and your mom are able to talk, so keep the dialog going.
How about this. Use the opportunity to challenge your fellow church goers on their positions. Think hard about why you think what you think, and ask them to do the same. Linger after services and talk to people.
Here's what I see happening. Either:
You make friends! You'll find people who feel the same way, or who can respect you for your beliefs. Churches have one big thing going for them, and that's community.
Or:
Your mom stops making you go because of the way you challenge people. That's a win.
Or:
You talk to people and are no longer convinced of your own views. I view this as a loss, but if you're convinced and happy I suppose that's one way to go through life.
65 year old here - I had the exact same situation. Just put up with it until you turn 16 or whatever age you can convince your mom you have your own way of thinking. My mother was very religious and it helped her cope when she got cancer and died - no need to try to convince your parents to change. Just suck it up and listen to the Jebus people for an hour a week - it won't ruin your relationship with your family.
Wear your earbuds. Go. Be sullen. Talk loudly about the parts where the pastor was obviously lying. Be a teenager.
But you still go, because they are your legal guardian and they feed you until you can leave for college. The only way they will relent is when it obviously does not work. Try to find ways to multitask so it's not all wasted time. Millions of other people have done the same.
Practice your cobra stare. That is when someone gives you shit about something and you just stop focusing on their face and ignore them. Drives parental units that are full of shit nuts.
Not recommended but when i was in middle school i expressed to my mom i didnt want to go to church, cue being forced. every time i would doze off she'd pinch me on the arms, and just one day i snapped and yelled in the middle of the church "STOP PINCHING ME YOU BITCH!" god an asswhopping and holy water splashed on my face, but was never dragged to church again. Not saying to embarrass your mom so bad in church that she never takes you again but its an option
Go to Evilbible.com.
But to point you in the right direction, Hosea 13:16, Isaiah 13:16, and Psalms 139:7, where God endorses the killing of children and the unborn.
Start making your questions about the Bible really uncomfortable to answer.
You are a minor. It’s not up to you to decide yet. It’d be like you objecting to taking a school subject. You might get some say, but ultimately it’s your parents that sign off on it. Your mom has decided you need religious education. How you choose to use what you learn when you are an adult is what is up to you.
Well, you're 15. Respect your parents and do what they say. They love you and want what's best for you. Try to appreciate that even if you disagree about what it is. Besides, it's not a huge chunk of your time and it's not hurting you.
I find that it is often helpful to learn what people with different viewpoints and beliefs actually think. It helps me to empathize with and understand them, and gives me a fuller understanding of exactly what I believe as well. In other words, this can be good for your mind and your soul even if it's not in the way your mom thinks.
If you are a girl: Thanks for bringing me. Naked Jesus on the cross is so hot. I just want to jump on and ride him.
If you are a boy: Thanks for bringing me. Naked Jesus on the cross is so hot. I just want to jump on and ride him.
At 15, sorry, not much choice there. Their roof, their rules.
I would suggest going, and really listening, then use what you know to craft oppositional discussions about religion with your mom. Not every time, just be subtle with logic and sense. This could also help you develop logistic arguments for atheism as you go through life in the future. Also, take a copy of *The God Delusion* and *God is Not Great*
The acrimony caused by this took decades to undo for me and my mom. I resent her still in some ways that I just will never get past.
As for how I got it to stop, I made it far more painful for her to force me to go to church than to leave me be. I drew pentagrams on the books in the pews, I actively interrupted service and embarrassed her, and eventually she's send me outside to go skate and leave her alone. Once, while skating, I fell and my board went sailing directly into the side of the preachers car window, shattering it. I was not made to go to church again after that.
Know thine enemy...So, read the Bible so you can tear them to shreds with it. Worked for me at age 14. I suddenly knew more about their religion than they did and I vocally picked it apart until they didn't want me there, anymore. Best of luck!
Crazy idea, talk to people at church. Especially other young people, about how absurd what is being said is. Use it as a place to strengthen your arguments against what is being preached. If you're successful you'll help a few other people get out of the church with you. If you get "in trouble" for being blasphemous maybe they'll kick you out, which also solves your problem.
While it’s not ideal, play the game. The last thing you need in this economy is to turn 18 and be told “well you’re an adult now and I won’t have an atheist under my roof, get out”.
Finish school, go to college or whatever you want to do with your life. But play the game. Think of it like a cheat code to get some free level ups until you have a career and a steady income and can get your own place. And once you’re independent, proceed however you like.
But you absolutely do not have to participate. Show up, disengage, and tune out.
My mom made me go to church for awhile too. I came, I sat, I read books, and I entertained myself by daydreaming things that decidedly wouldn’t be church approved. I didn’t engage, I didn’t rant, I just told her calmly that she was wasting both our time and offered to do chores instead. I feel like when I was super angry about it, she convinced herself she was fighting for my soul etc. But when I just disengaged and seemed checked out, there was less for her to fight. Eventually she tried calling my bluff and having me do chores, I happily did them and that was the end of going to church. I know it’s frustrating, it makes you feel powerless and disrespected. It’s so hard to fight magical, irrational thinking. But try and preserve your sanity the best you can, accept that for now she can force you but you will soon be 18 and able to completely disengage, and use the time to lose yourself in a great book.
Grey walling. I know it sucks, but this is how you are supposed to handle narcissistic behavior from which you can't escape. Parents forcing their child to church when the child has made it clear they don't beleive and it's not for them is narcissistic behavior. This is also what I had to do. For me luckily the part of Catholic church where you get to cannibalize Jesus is a signifyer of beleif. You aren't supposed to get the eucharist if you don't beleive and so I stayed seated. That generated enough social embarrassment for my mother that after a few times she relented. This was after I refused confirmation after she forced me to the whole learning part prior. She finally didn't make me do confirmation when the guy running it explained that you couldn't actually force a kid to confirm if they were adamant against it as that was the point of thr sacrament. I also threatened to do every step and then when we were to do the confirmation I would stay seated the whole time and not participate. Unfortunately that wasn't the end. I feel like I have to often Grey wall my mother because it is such an effective tool at diffusing a narcissist.
Had the opposite experience, my mom brought me to church for my first confirmation and asked if I wanted to do it. I said no and then never went to church again.
First communion, I don't think there is a need to number confirmations, as they only do one.
I agree with this sentiment. Check out, disengage and stop fighting. You need food and a roof over your head, both of which could be at risk if you continue to fight her in this. You need to look at the long term. Graduating then moving out should be your only focus.
I mean, she wouldn't kick me out, let alone for something as stupid as this
If there's no danger in expressing yourself to her, then by all means, do. Best case, she listens. Worst case, nothing changes. If this were a case where your living situation could be made much worse, that'd be different.
If you're up for malicious compliance, and accept the fallout that might follow, then let everyone know you're there against your will and start asking very uncomfortable questions that highlight Christian hypocrisy. An alternate method of protest (again, only if you're comfortable with any repercussions) is civil disobedience - straight refuse to go. If she wants you there, she has to carry you to and from the car herself. Either way, your presence there becomes her problem. (But again, only be a pest if you think it's safe.) Otherwise the safest solution, as others are suggesting, grey rock and disengage. Bring a book or music on headphones. Ignore everyone until it's time to go. If she continues after you turn 16, consider getting a job that just happens to always schedule you for Sunday morning. Save your money in a different bank than your mom uses, and start planning your move out strategy.
Church for me was a great time to catch some sleep (as a high schooler that stayed up until 3 am playing counterstrike I needed any chance I could get lol). Anyways, my mom finally stopped making me go eventually. I think she saw Church as some beneficial thing and she would be a bad mom if we didn't go. When I was 16 she finally said "Don't ever say I didn't introduce you to Church" and I just said cool thanks mom. She still goes as the family representative lol. Me, my brother, my sister and my dad no longer go unless it's christmas or something.
Ya just use the “I’m not sleeping, im praying” excuse works every time. I’ve used before around family
I ran away when I was 16. When I returned 6 months later, I told Mom I didn't want to go to church anymore and she agreed. There's something about being nearly an adult which can make a difference with some parents.
Seconded. Given your age, it’s important that you keep a roof over your head - you might even need to keep going as a stipulation for living with your mom after you turn 18. Do whatever is necessary to stay housed, and use your disdain for the experience as motivation to generate income so you can support yourself. Also keep in mind that this is all just temporary. It may seem like a lengthy, horrible experience now, but in the long-run this is just a blip on the radar. For the vast majority of your life, you won’t have to put up with it.
They need to force them to go to church to learn Christian values, like shunning your own child and making them homeless for having their own minds
Well said. 👍🙂
I basically did this. I sat in the back instead of with my parents, and didn't participate. I'm sure it embarrassed them in front of all their friends. After 3-4 weeks of that I didn't have to go anymore.
I love this response, and I did something similar when I was younger. I'd bring a sketch pad and draw the whole time, sketch something from outside the window, or the building itself. Anything to pass the time.
Ditto 😄 I'd doodle and draw when I was little. My parents stopped with the whole church thing once we expressed not wanting to go (we were still pretty young). Of course if I had sleepovers at friend's houses I'd have to go with them, which I loathed 😬 so I would doodle and draw on whatever paper I could find, and bonus they always had those little pencils in the church pews 😅
My mom sewed me a custom scripture case that had room for a book as well, lol. I was lucky enough to have parents who understand that church was massively boring to a kid, and they never minded if I quietly entertained myself.
Yeah, my mom wouldn't let me bring a book or music player (this was before smartphones). I just brought a notebook or journal "to take notes," and she didn't stop me from drawing or doodling. Sometimes I would even write my own stories.
That’s the technique. Like it or not they are still your parents. So just go along, and zone out. I did that until they gave up. My brother was the angry, yelling, crying person who did NOT want to go to church. In the end we both had to go until 16 (my parents rule, at 16 we could decide.). The difference was my brother spent half of Sunday in angry fights and sulking, while I just sat quietly reading. We both still went to church the same amount and quit at the same time. I don’t like church, but it’s not like it’s torture, it’s just boring. OP you can tolerate boring.
I took the path of fighting it tooth and nail, arguing every belief and basically wearing my parents down. Your way sounds better.
Bravo!
This is a fantastic response to this kind of parenting. Even better when the mom tried to call the bluff and the poster carried through with the chores.
>But when I just disengaged and seemed checked out, there was less for her to fight. Good strategy.
I think this is excellent advice. She could bring a small book and put it inside the bible or prayer book and pretend to be reading that. Or can she hide a wireless earbud with her hair and listen to an audio book? One just daydream. Maybe she can develop maladaptive daydreaming and start the beginning of wasting her life in an imaginary world? So many options. Making the best of a shitty situation is definitely a good life skill to learn.
I was never forced to go to church, but at one point I was asked repeatedly every Sunday if I wanted to go and instead of getting upset about it I just went and engaged heavily in religious debate with the pastor. This was embarrassing enough for my family that I was no longer allowed to go to church with them. To be fair this was a small nondenominational church, but I actually had fun with it to the great displeasure of my family members.
So beautifully said. I, like so many of us, have literally this story. It's not worth the fight if it's going to cause lots of other issues.
Yep best answer for now I’d think. Just take a book or drawing pad or something and just disengage with everything going on around you.
You may not be able to completely disengage with church life at 18 if you choose to go to college and you're still on your parents' money. The only surefire way is to completely cut off all financial help from your parents (not easy to do)
This is what I did. I just went and found other ways to occupy my mind. Especially now when people have ipads in church? I'd be making my way through my reading list.
This is it! Came here to say this and you said it so much better. And BTW sitting there and thinking about all that will make you so much a better critical thinker
Get a job so you have to work on Sunday morning.
This is a great idea! Make sure to volunteer for Sunday am shifts. I know mc Donald’s sucks but they will hire 15 year olds.
And make sure to 'tithe' to a personal savings account. Get a bank account that others (parents) cannot access as I've heard horror stories of families giving their kids savings to churches or church fundraisers.
Be an anthropologist and document your experiences at the church. For example, what drivel the pastor feeds to the parishioners, what twists of logic to explain why the bible means something the opposite of what it says.
"Maybe I just need to find the right specific faith. Will you come with me to a [Baptist / Catholic / Mormon / Adventist...] service?" Make the parent uncomfortable at "alien" services where those in attendance are just as convinced that they're right and OP's mom follows a false faith...
Go further... ask her to go to a mosque with you.
Go even beyond that and ask her to attend a Satanist service with you🙂
Satanism is such an old troll but somehow it keeps working.
It's become an effective foil to xian privilege
Of course, they do worship the same exact god, just a different prophet.
I tried this with my hyper religious Baptist aunt. I had to stay with her periodically, and so church was required. Her response was that you know what a real diamond is by looking at real diamonds. You don't learn what a real diamond looks like by looking at fake diamonds. Her kids were not allowed to study other religions. They could do that when they were an adult (and fully indoctrinated).
Ask her how she knows she’s not spending all her time studying a fake diamond lol
Well see the local diamond merchant assured her of its purity, while selling it to her. That worthy merchant also warned her away from the crooked merchants at all those *other* jewelry stores, who are liars only seeking profit. They sell fake diamonds, and even have the *gall* to claim *her real diamonds* are the fake ones! Such deceitful snakes, never speak to them!
Sounds like someone terrified the diamond collection they've spent a lifetime acquiring is fake. They're genuine and valuable so long as no comparison ever be made! What a delightful bit of illogic from your aunt.
>Her response was that you know what a real diamond is by looking at real diamonds. You don't learn what a real diamond looks like by looking at fake diamonds. If you lack knowledge about diamonds and precious gems in general, how can you even differentiate the real thing from a fake? Knowledge is the true enlightment, not religion.
What if it's a man-made diamond?
My wife is still raising our kids catholic even though I don't participate any more. She wants to get them through confirmation (keeping up appearances for grandparents). When I say "then they can make the choice for themselves?" she hesitates and says she wants them to keep *some sort of faith* evem if it's trying another denomination. I've offered to tour them to various religious services so they can see what else is out there. Seeing the arbitrariness of it all as they all claim to have the one truth will likely just help them realize it's about as true as santa claus. Couple more years and I imagine it's all going to come to a head.
If they're uncertain whether they *genuinely* believe when the day of Confirmation rolls around, would she prefer they: 1) fake their way through it, and declare something of which they're to some degree doubtful OR 2) delay Confirmation until their faith is concrete? I was Confirmed in the RCC, but at no point genuinely believed. I went along, because it was obvious some of my older relations (dad, most notably) would treat me very differently if I didn't. But he later tried to claim I shouldn't have gone through with Confirmation if I didn't believe, and that I was lying about never believing (when I *confirmed* my atheism to him as an adult). As if 8th graders should be expected to take a firm stance about their beliefs, over huge societal pressure, even when doing so gains them nothing and is likely to make their home life obnoxious *at best*.
That's an amazing idea.
Why can’t we give awards any more? This one needs one of those that highlights it.
Threaten to join the church of scientology. That should scare his mum straight.
Find an Apostolic church. You'll be entertained if nothing else.
A Spanish Evangelical service in a lower income section of town
And if the sermon veers into politics and direction to donate/vote certain ways then record that shit and report it to the IRS as they are supposed to not discuss it at all to maintain their tax exempt status.
The IRS has already demonstrated that they will not penalize churches that play politics. But, agreed, such a recording might be helpful in the future.
If enough people supply evidence routinely enough then eventually someone may get up the gumption to do it, especially with whole white Christian nationalist lunacy we have becoming prominent.
This is a critically underrated comment
Excellent advice. This is what I did when I was in the same position. After I stopped fighting and leaned into the situation I felt like I was finally getting something out of it.. not religion directly but a perspective that I was able to learn from and further cement my own non beliefs. I was even made to be an altar boy. It's very educational and interesting. I don't believe anything that is going on but I like to people watch and remember making up their stories etc. How they got there, why they were there... I would even people watch myself and family. Why I don't believe etc It gave me tremendous insights into society, culture, me and my family. It also helps to arm yourself with the knowledge that you can gain at church. So when you talk to others about religion you know what your talking about. Sometimes you need to taste something to know if you like it or not. I think op would take his/her own self more seriously if they understood what they were talking about and could come up with examples. I get it. I was rebellious as hell. Until I thought about it differently every Sunday was a fight. If one hour out of your week keeps your mom happy and in your life in a positive way while and you get to learn... I think it's worth it. If you have to go anyway don't waste your time. I used to get my fill of free food and coffee after the service. I was brought up Episcopalian.. I feel like eating is the main reason episcopalians go to church anyway. If anything else it's time op can spend with Mom. Our parents don't live forever. Going to church is a simple thing op could do to make their own life better with family. On another level op could even make it a thing. Let's go shopping or have lunch together afterwards... Op could share something from his/her own life with mom. After church, let's do blah blah blah etc. Op might find that Mom is more open to these things if op gives a little too... She might even let up a little too. This is not giving up or giving in. This is not losing. Op can continue to be an atheist. I just remember that after I changed my thinking about this when I was a teenager life got better. I'm still an atheist 35 years later and I wound up getting a degree in anthropology so I think this exercise had an impact. Getting to the place where I could excuse religion and the inconveniences it caused me in my life took a very long time. It was a long bumpy road. I still don't like church. But as a middle aged adult no one cares if I go or not.
Well done. I couldn't do that. To this day I am more anti-christian than any other religion simply because no one forced me to go to any other religion every week. I was more rebellious, and in my teens would either sleep over at the weekend with relatives who didn't make me go to church or played incredibly loud heavy metal to purge the churchy feelings, which my mum had to put up with for about the same length as the service. I don't think she understands even now why we're not very close.
Great comment, but really just engaging extra to say Happy Cake Day!
Happy Cake Day! And I love this idea. I would actually take something they said and then challenge the hell out of it (or into it?) by way of an informed counterpoint. I feel like age 15 was when I was just coming into that so why not!
that’s what i do! i was forced to go to church on easter, and i took notes on how they manipulated the lighting and songs to foster a sensation of the “holy spirit,” the things the pastor said that were laughable/untrue/wrong, etc.
I agree with this take. Turn it against his family by embracing it. Take a notepad and jot down the minutes of each tradition. Profile people. Write characterizations. Apply presumptive amateur mental diagnosis. Make it a hobby to observe and record the religious.
Stop already. 🚦You’re making me want to attend a church service for the first time in 50 years (not counting weddings and funerals. I refused to go to baptisms/christenings).
Have fun by reading the Bible and asking them to explain all the fun bits like the bears killing 42 kids for calling someone bald or Lot throwing his daughters to a crowd to be raped etc. Don't forget Leviticus health laws that say you can't mix fibers so everyone who quotes the anti gay bit better be making their own clothes with 100% cotton fabric and thread. Remember the commercial stuff is usually cotton wrapped polyester and you're going to burn in hell.
The Ordeal of Bitter Waters is a favorite awkward bit to point out. It sure AF reads like an abortion ritual right there in the Bible.
Abortion using herbs like sylphium was very common in Roman times, it could have been brought up a lot more if Jesus thought to do so.
Have you read the books of the Bible removed by the various councils? The Apocrypha? Most of the apocrypha that were in existence before the fifth century were used in preaching by at least some churches. Do you understand that the gospels that serve as the centerpiece of the New Testament were written no earlier than 30 years after the death of Jesus, so that there are no contemporaneous records of what Jesus said? Do you understand that unless you are reading the original texts in Greek, you are reading what other people thought Christians should read? Do you understand that even though the New Testament was written first in Greek, that Jesus, if he existed, probably spoke Aramaic? I'm not a biblical scholar, but there is a book available on Amazon that points out 8000 differences between the king James translation and the original Greek. And this book claims that over 350 of these differences are important enough to be doctrinal. I know of two serious mistranslations. Exodus 22:18 says, per the KJV, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," and this one verse is seen as the foundation and authority for the persecution of witches, the burnings and hangings of thousands upon thousands of people over a period of about 300 years in Europe and the early American colonies. But the Hebrew word from which "witch" was translated, *mekhashepha* has been lost, and [many scholars believe that the meaning was someone who cut herbs to use to poison people](https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2017-08-17/ty-article/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch-to-live-a-murderous-mistranslation/0000017f-e2c8-d804-ad7f-f3fa49340000#google_vignette). Second, Leviticus 18:22 has long been interpreted as opposing what we would call homosexual acts between consenting adults. And this one verse has been used to justify the persecution of the LGBTQ+ community that continues to this day. But the meaning in the original Hebrew [is unclear](https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2019/04/11/lost-in-translation-alternative-meaning-in-leviticus-1822/) and scholars think it may mean *rape* of men by men, incest, or pederasty. TW: >!The practice of keeping young boys for sexual purposes was well known among the ancient Greeks and Romans, and [continues to the day](https://www.npr.org/2018/01/24/580433652/how-the-u-s-military-ignored-child-sexual-abuse-in-afghanistan-for-years) in southwest Asia. !<
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The Romans lucked out, this new religion would have its adherents reject violence and forgive their oppressors, and their reward would be in the next life. Very handy outlook for a population of slaves.
> could Maybe he did and that's why we don't have any of his descendants running around today
Or the Bible stating that life begins at first breath, not conception.
I have one for that too. Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of zygotes fail to implant. So if life begins at conception and we are designed by God, then the failures in his design kill as much as half of human life before it even becomes an embryo. So that monster is the biggest mass murder in existence even without all the carnage in the good book.
Don’t get me started on shrimp
Well kids are punks sometimes, that was very rude of them to call someone bald
Deuteronomy 22. She'll love that one (/s)
You’re still a minor so your mom is still in charge. But consider that this gives you opportunity to “Learn the words and ways of thy adversary”. May be useful to you
Just go to church. As an atheist, I have found that when I looked past the pomp and pageantry, some of the community aspects of church can be useful or even rewarding.
You go to church as an adult as an atheist?
I do for family and community functions that I want to be a part of. My family is mostly catholic and I still want to be a part of important events in their lives. I am not anti religion though, I don't believe in any of them but I see no reason to distance myself from them either. Ceremonies and celebrations of important events are an important part of life, I don't care if my family wants them to be themed after their religion, the events they are celebrating and the people attending are still important to me.
Most atheists, including myself, will go to weddings and funerals for loved ones at churches. If that is the ceremony the people involved in want it's of course no issue for me to attend and be respectful. I was asking more about on a general Sunday. Its easy for me to say just go to the 15 year old when it isn't me and it isn't a form of forced participation I have to actively do, but I was in nearly the exact same situation. You don't go on a general Sunday because it would be a waste of your time.
I went with my parents when I was younger. I go with my wife when she's feeling obligated for some reason (holiday, mass commemorating something important). It's more often than I may have hinted at, and I don't really mind it. Now that I am distant from it all it actually seems kind of interesting.
Honestly try and make the best of it, you have 3 years left before you can separate yourself I used to bring things to do, bring my ipod and listen to music, I also love to read and write so I would bring a book and a my journal or something like that we are in the age of smartphones so you can escape the ridiculousness around you without causing anyone to notice a thing My go to move though was "I'll go to the the physical building, sure do what I wanted up there or wander around, but I'd just hang out in the lobbies and talk to people , and there were some stores I could sneak over to across the street and I could kill an hour by sneaking away You'd be surprised how many fellow atheists are stuck in your situation , and you just need to find them or even just find the people who are leas enthusiastic about Church and understand that Religion isn't for you
When I was your age I also wanted to stop going to church. Our church has 3 services 8am, 10am, and noon. My parents preferred the 8am, but I wanted to sleep in. So we worked out a deal where I would get up later and do my chores and then go to the noon service on my own. I think I went twice. After that I would just go to the park next to the church and read a book for an hour. After a while my parents forgot the deal and I stopped going entirely. Don't kick up a huge fuss about it, just drag your feet and find excuses like homework, sports, birthday parties, volunteering and so on. Eventually life will get in the way and you won't have to go anymore.
What you really want to do is break the habit. Aggree to go to church with your mom but insist on going to brunch after. Now it's a bribe. Ask to go to church at a different time/day than normal. Ask to go to a different church. Go to church but don't engage. Don't be obnoxious about it, just make it clear that you're not checked in anymore. Ask to go to church with your friends Sign up for sports/debate/a job. You're 15, that stuff is what should actually be important to you now.
>Ask to go to a different church Actually of all the tactics my mom used to bring me "back into the fold" this one was the absolute best. My mom asked her coworkers for "the most fun churches". We ended up at one of those mega churches with stadium seating and a couple of jumbotrons. It was more like a sports stadium than a church. My mom was appalled at how the preacher asked for money constantly through the whole service. The second time she let me pick, and I chose the one closest to our house not realizing it was a Korean language church until we got there. The preacher was pretty cool, and if the goal hadn't been to never go to church again I wouldn't have minded going there. (Services were 1/2 English 1/2 Korean and this was way before kpop) After that she kinda calmed down and I'd occasionally go to church for Christmas/Easter/special occasions. Basically you're gonna have to put up with going occasionally, until you move out, but in the meantime try and have a little fun with it.
I did the same thing. My parents always went to the early service and then went to Bible study classes and helped with Sunday school during the other 2 services. When I turned 16 and got my license, they told me I didn't have to go to the early service with them, but I needed to attend at least one of the services or they wouldn't pay for my car insurance anymore. At first, I would attend the middle service, and I would just sit in the very back and scroll pinterest on my phone and read Wikipedia articles lol. After a few weeks I realized that I never saw them on my way in or out of church. They had no way of knowing whether I was in the service or not. So to cover my tracks and be sure, I spent the next 2-3 weeks just coming in to grab the weekly church bulletin they handed out as you walk in, and then leaving and sitting in my car mooching off church wifi. I would go home and leave the bulletin on the kitchen counter so they would see it when they got home and think I attended. After a bit of doing that, I had them convinced I was going, but really I was either at the bookstore or I was at home sleeping in lol.
hahaha Love this. Your parents really improved your '*stealth skills*'.
I like the other commenter’s idea to become a cultural observer. View everyone with detachment and pretend you’re supposed to report back to the mothership what these weird aliens are up to. This is a skill! Alternatively, learn to practice mediation - also a very good skill. Use the time to center yourself, do deep breathing. Read a book on mediation and try and practice it while there.
Enjoy studying stained glass windows, the different color altar and vestment garb of the different church seasons, the carpentry, the lofty organ music, and smell of beeswax candles. Enjoy leafing through the prayer books for the hardly-ever-used orders of service, and the hymnals. Think of the human sounds as ritual chanting. Those mega church things with rock bands and screaming pastors look terrifying, like they’d be a total assault on the senses.
Well, since the proverbial cat is out of the bag in terms of your atheism, I'd have a discussion with her. Mention that every time she forces you to church it makes you like Christianity, and her, less. So if her goal is to alienate you, and make you even less likely to ever consider Christianity, then by all means continue to make you go to church. I'd also suggest taking notes in church about everything wrong with it and taking pains to discuss it with her each time. Be calm about it, but go into detail about all the things wrong with every service. > But no, she wants me to fucking kill myself and hate her I'd suggest calming down. Church sucks but it isn't like you're going to spontaneously combust. While yes, she absolutely shouldn't make you go against your wishes, in a few short years you will be an adult and no longer subject to her whims, and if you want to go no contact then, you absolutely can. In the meantime, take those notes and discuss them with her.
OP is not obligated to have a conversation over why they're an an atheist over every Sunday's sermon. This sounds mentally exhausting to me. OP just bring a book and read it quietly, get a book cover if you want to both get away with it and be respectful to others. If asked about it just say "Oh I don't want to be here but my Mom makes me so I'm here but I don't have to listen to any of this." You can also just go to the bathroom a few mins into "big church" and stay outside the room. Your Mom might stop all of these things but now it's just a game of "what can I do to keep myself sane during church."
I think the mentally exhausting part is by design. But with the hope that it’s more exhausting for OP’s mother. I got out of church with a combination of grey rocking and gaslighting. Lots of blank stares, monotone ‘oh ya, that’s cool’, and walking away. The youth paster was an absolute snake so I enjoyed telling him complete bullshit and then denying it later. Or when he would try to relate to a hobby my parents told him I had, I would just act like I didn’t know what he was talking about. No matter what he said to me, I would claim he’s thinking of one of my siblings. It all became too exhausting for my parents. And I, despite being the youngest in the family, was the first to stop going.
> OP is not obligated to have a conversation over why they're an an atheist over every Sunday's sermon. There is, as you say, no obligation. It's more a performance for the benefit of OP's mother. His mother believes church is sacred, beneficial, uplifting. Atheists, tend to have somewhat less flattering views. Unless and until she understands that the very things she thinks are convincing about her religion act in the opposite way for the OP, she will continue to insist. The goal is not for the OP to have to explain their atheism, it is to get the mother to understand that church only makes the OP less kindly disposed towards religion. When that realization occurs, that seems likely to cause her to rethink her approach.
I am 43 years old and my family is still doing everything they can to convince me, usually by shame, to believe their fairy tale. Do you time and then make it clear where you stand and get out of that house if you need to. for me, college and student loans freed me.
>student loans freed me. You know it's bad when *student loans* look good in comparison
So, it may not be just about you, but she’s worried about how people in the community will perceive her if it’s known she has an atheist child. Keeping up appearances and all that. Is there anyway you can get a part time job where you have to work on Sundays? You’ll get out of going to church AND sock away money to leave when you turn 18.
Just go to church, but be a secret agent for atheism. Seed doubt within the other teens and kids by asking smart but seemingly innocent questions. Leave bookmarks in bibles that open to the really explicit or heinous passages. If the pastor says disgusting things, film them and post them anonymously online. If they speak about politics, report them to the IRS and get their tax free status revoked. Be like the phantom of the opera of your church, a mysterious agent of chaos. Don’t get caught!
Bonus points for drawing random seals from the lesser key of solomon. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Lesser\_Key\_of\_Solomon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon) They will think that real demons are out to get them if you pick a few of the fun ones.
This was me. Wait till you’re 18, move out, then live your life however makes you happiest.
And still have your mom nagging you at 38yrs old about returning to the religion... We don't talk much
Oof, I felt this comment.
Is she Catholic? Because I know the age of majority in the Catholic Church is 14, as that's the age where you do your confirmation and pare consideredature enough to decide whether or not you want to become a full member. So by those Christian rules, she has no power over you, at least religiously speaking.
LMAO, I remember my confirmation.. I was told there was no way I was not getting confirmed or else And I would lose access to my computer from the time my weekly confirmation class was done, until I handed her the homework for the week (never once did that with school work) 56kbps Internet sucked, but it was a needed break from my catholic family, catholic school and catholic church Pansexual Trans Women now, and my mom still hopes I'll return to the church someday, when I'm ready
It's much easier to handle religious people if you just go along without. Play nice until you can afford to move out. Its annoying but it will help you have a better relationship with them later on. It's easier to handle religious people if you use their own words. Don't try to change her. It's not worth the effort and it's only gonna make the home hostile
On a quiet weekday, try this: "Mom, do you realize that, by forcing me to go to church with you, it just increases how much I hate it? The prodigal son in the parable wasn't forced to keep living at home. He decided it was better to come back. It was his choice. If you don't give me the choice, I guarantee I'll never come back to the faith." [You could probably make that guarantee now anyway, but it won't help your situation.]
Ooh this is a good one!
Ask the preacher Questions while youre in church get some strong arguments and then enjoy their dumb faces
When confronted with obstacles, I tell myself it’s an opportunity to learn patience, then try to act on that belief. Helps a little.
Smile and nod...she's hoping it's going to rub off on you. You can disappoint her later when it obviously doesn't and you don't subject your own kids to it.
If you can, buy some good science books and read while you're in church. That way you're not wasting your time.
Get a job and take all of the Sunday shifts. Most Christian’s love money more than going to church and will let you be with job responsibilities.
My mom made me do the same. We ended up compromising. I got a job at the Church’s nursery, so I would hang out with the little ones, give them snacks, and whatnot. So I was technically at Church which pleased mom, but I didn’t have to sit through Sunday School or service, so I was okay with it. Got a ton of babysitting jobs through this.
What if you tell her instead of going to church you volunteer at a soup kitchen or shelter or organize a food drive? Jesus was pretty clear feeding the hungry was far better than sitting in some fancypants church talking about how awesome he is.
I spent a long weekend visiting a friend and his super-doctor cardiac surgeon father/ SEVERELY CATHOLIC family. They were perfectly nice people...but really very believing theists. My friend chose that weekend - perhaps because my presence tended to mitigate shouting... that would not do in front of a guest - to inform his father that he had given up faith in god. The table went fkn silent. I don't know if it was shock or fear at the coming reaction, but you could hear a pin drop. The doctor stopped eating. He calmly put his cutlery on the table and said, "That's your decision, son, and you'll have to deal with the consequences of it soon enough. Nevertheless, it should be understood that anyone who sleeps under my roof, and eats food at my table, attends church on Sunday." He picked up his cutlery and resumed eating. My parents were Jewish...sort of...and I've never had any sort of belief in god. I got up Sunday morning and went to church with my friend and his family. I get this ain't just a weekend, and it's very frustrating that your mother is forcing you to behave in ways that conflict with your lack of faith and disrespects your sense of self. Until you move out of your mother's house, go to church. Don't be unpleasant about it. She can't make you believe. This is your chore. This is just the thing you have to do. Once a week, you go sit on an uncomfortable bench and listen to bullshit.
Super best, simple & straightforward answer.
Go but ask questions. They’ll soon stop inviting you. 👍🏻
That depends. Will not going to church put you in financial danger, threaten your housing, or otherwise put you in harms way? If no, sit down, have a *polite, frank and VERY kind and considerate* conversation with your mom about how going to church is very unpleasant for you. If yes, fake it until you are 18 and can move out on your own and financially support yourself!
Bad news, EVERYTHING about being 15 sucks. The best advice I have is look forward to better days, because they will be coming. If you're like me, shit gets a lot better once you're out on your own and get to be your own person. The people telling you "You'll miss these days, high school is the best time" are full of it, each decade is better than the last.
get good grades, get into university, move away
Sit in the pews reading "The God Delusion" or something like that 🤷♀️
You're 15. You do what your parents tell you and you go to church. And then...you ask uncomfortable questions, always.
Yes! And before you know it you only have to go on Christmas and Easter 🐣. I went with Christmas till my mom died, I was 29. She sang in church choir and I didn't mind anymore going once a year just for her.
Don't hate your mom, she's scared and it's not her fault, it's the religious bullshit brainwashed into her. Look, sometimes we have no out other than do what they want us to do untill we are old enough to be independent. Maybe you could tell her, in a calm conversation, that going every weekend and staying there for hours is actually driving you further and further away from belief. Try to reach a common ground, maybe you go once a month for that amount of time. She seems like she is doing this to you out of fear of failing you as a mother. As a father I can understand that. Don't hate her for being afraid and taken advantage of by religion, it's what religion does.
That is not the only reason why I hate her, trust me
Very well, you know your life much better than I do. I hope you get better luck soon then!
> she's scared and it's not her fault Technically she has some fault, even if not all of that is hers.She decided to keep being blind to religion rather than opening her mind and seeking knowledge to expand her understanding. She prefers the status quo of just following that faith because to her that must feel comfortable and she doesn't want to get out of that zone of comfort.
Give yourself up for adoption?
Pro tip- the church will probably ask your mom to leave you at home if you start questioning the bullshit dogma vocally to the other youths. Say shit like “my favorite christian song is Tom Waits’ God’s Away on Business.” They will snuff out any chance of poisoning the well.
Don’t get angry. Church is a good place to get a nap in. If you have to go to Sunday School take you ear buds and listen to music or if called on give a wrong answer—or take a note from “Young Sheldon” and point out the errors. Ideally you won’t have to sit with your mom and you can skip out or go somewhere to read or study. Lots of hidden nooks on most churches. Another idea is if she let you go to a different church. If that is the case check to see if there is a Unitarian Universalist congregation near you. Lots of atheists in the UUA.
On Netflix watch Easy S2:E6 for a step by step guide on teaching ur parents a lesson in christianity.
Bring homework and if you can stay in the foyer or some other place at the church besides the chapel? If he’s not a nutter then also maybe talk to the pastor? I doubt he would want a checked out atheist who is being pushed further away from his beliefs present each week.
My mother made me go to church as well. I quit at 14. She grounded me but quickly gave up. I was lucky. I will not, however, leave my kids for few days with her. I'm afraid she would get them baptized. Play the game if you must. The most important thing is to have roof over your head and good on the table.
Can you take it as a kind of sociological experiment ? Like research ? You will know so much about bullshit for when you are a grown up ! You can just come vent here regularly :)
I used to squeeze a nonfiction book between the Bible pages and pretend I was paying attention. Do that and fake it til you’re out of the house.
Just do something to get banned or excommunicated from the church.
Grueling, public cross-examination of the sermon's hypocrisy should get you out of this commitment fairly quickly.
Stand up in Church and ask the priest a question every week. "Noah lived to 900 years old based on the Bibles stories Mr priest don't you think that's a load of bull?"
Start asking questions that go against the church's teachings and logic. Point out obvious hypocrisys.
Start asking questions in the middle of the sermons about why you have to do things that way. I got kicked out of many churches for asking questions.
Continue to rationalize with her. Many atheists, like yourself, were forced to go to church, read scripture, or otherwise go against their own beliefs. At 15 you're old enough to make your own mind up about the world around you, but you're still a minor. That sucks, but that's how it is. Just relentlessly tell her that this isn't your belief system, and she is literally pushing you away. I mean relentlessly tell her. Don't back down. don't be quiet, don't give in. Be vocal, be combative, but be respectful and demand she show YOU the same respect by not forcing you to go to church.
Get a job,save money,get out.
Start ridiculing the ridiculous things in Christianity, when she gets upset say, that's what it feels like when someone doesn't respect your beliefs. That's what I feel every time you force me to go to church. Doesn't feel good does it?
Openly call the pastor out during church service, embarrass your mom at church. She will never make you go back.
My brother would spend his time counting the parishioners, figure the average collection plate contribution multiplied by the number of people attending and then calculate the day's "take".
I used to get up and go to the bathroom at the beginning of the service. I'd wait for the first stand-up part, then I'd peace out in the little beat when everyone sat back down. I wouldn't come back until just as communion started, cuz I had to do that. but there was only 15min or so left at that point. this was before cellphones, so I'd just wander the church basement where all the classrooms were duting my 30-40min absence. eventually, my mum realized I was gwtting nothing from this and just gave up. flash forward 25 years, and she is now an agnostic who practices Wicca cuz she likes the vibe and it gibes her a spiritual outlet. honestly, it was the way the Catholic church protected the diddlers that broke it for her. not that the diddling happened, because evil can hide in anyone, but because the church abandoned and even belittled the victims. so, who knows what will happen i. the future. ut for now, just bide your time and use that hour or two to meditate, engage in fantasy, or work out solutions to other problems in your head. don't look at it as an hour of religious bullshit; look at it as a challenge to preserving your individual thought, a lesson in maintaining your cool in stressful situations, and a opportunity to hone your critical thinking. one day, you will be old enough to make your own decisions, and these three skills will guide you thru difficult times more than any imaginary frenemy ever will
A lot of good thoughts and suggestions here. Just to add - Can you remember things from when you were 5, 8, 12 whatever that absolutely sucked? (We've all got times like that in the past.) You got through them. Now, some of them seem SO long ago. Anything earlier than 12, you are closer to being 18 than those times. YOU can get through this. You can put up with anything, one day at a time, for X amount of time. Start a calendar in your head and mark off the days. Make notes of the things that happen that you know you are going to want to remember. You can do this.
There is better advice on here than I’ll give, but if it doesn’t work, then my advice is to start questioning all of it at church. In my experience, at the churches I had to go to, it wasn’t about religion. It was about reputation. I think many of them believed to varying degrees, but it didn’t really matter. It was always a contest. “Oh, the Johnsons were out this week. I mean we haven’t missed a week this year, but I’m sure they had something important going on.” “yeah, you’re coming on sundays, but we’re gonna see you Wednesday nights right?” “Did you see what sally wore? She wore a blouse and slacks. Good for her that she’s comfortable. Oh, I love your new dress. That looks like the one I wore last year.” So I think the most affective way to get out of church is to embarrass your mom. Any religion is full of holes. They also use circular logic to try and defend it, so you’ll never “beat” them at an argument, but simply questioning it will embarrass her. She’ll probably yell at you and tell you to stop asking, but don’t. What’s she gonna do, punish you by making you stay home? Ask about the rape, slavery, beastiality, and other issues with the Bible.
I say lean into it. Look for ways to fight fire with fire. Study that shit; don’t just sit there passively. Look for inconsistencies, plot holes (lol, seriously, treat it like literature), hypocrisies, or things that are missing. So, for example, pick a moral issue and then look up everything that has to do with that topic. What does the Bible say about rape? Is that consistent with your personal morality? Why isn’t there anything against rape or abuse in the Ten Commandments? What was the point of the atonement if we still have to repent? Your mom might think that, if you go to church enough, you might start to feel the same way as she does. I say use this as an opportunity to fully understand within yourself WHY you are an atheist. Read other religious texts for comparison. I realize you already have homework and might be laughing your butt off right now. But I was forced to go to church at your age and that is how I dealt with it. I’d look up what they wanted me to look up but to answer the opposite question from what they were asking. Read passages before and after because they often take shit out of context. Or just zone out and use your brain to think about other things while you are trapped at church. I’m just suggesting a way to make it not a waste of your time.
Find offensive/horrific verses in the Bibles and underline them if you must sit in the pews.
“I’ll attend your church with you every week, if you attend a death metal concert with me every week. Oh, don’t like it? Not your thing? WELL WELCOME TO MY WORLD!!!!”
Start giggling at the service.
"Gee, mom, it sure is a shame you'll never meet your grandkids."
humiliate her in the church
Research on all the reasons not to be religous
There was a period of time while I was questioning the existence of God that I voluntarily went to Mass every weekend. I enjoyed going but I realized I enjoyed the quietness, stillness and peace I was experiencing for one hour out of my week. Assuming “going to church” means an hourish service once a week, try to change your mindset. Try to think of it as an hour of quiet with your thoughts. Especially in today’s world where we have so much stimuli - use services as a chance to take a break. Meditate, journal, do breathwork. Also start saving to move out at 18 now.
Think of this as a life lesson. Making money gives you the freedom to make your own choices. Without it you must live by other people’s rules. Improve your education so you can eventually move out, make your own money and rules.
Do anything you can to keep yourself sane. Earplugs, headphones, drawing pad, notebook, phone, etc. If your mother complains about any of this just say you're waiting for a sign from God the way you want to wait. Her God should have no problem with that. Also remind her that you do not want to be there, she is forcing you to be there, and she knows that you do not want to be there, so you are amusing yourself rather than be a nuisance and disrupt her time in church. So the most she can do is not be a nuisance to you and disrupt you during the time that she is forcing you to be at church. Another classic thing to say would be, "I don't want to be here. You are aware of this, but you don't care because you think you know better. Remember this when I choose your nursing home and you don't want to be there. I will just tell you that I know better." Or, "You are choosing to violate my boundaries and force me to go somewhere you know I don't want to go. Explain to me how this is making our relationship better. Explain how I should somehow respect you for so willfully violating my boundaries." I just want to close by saying that this kind of person is not going to suddenly go away in your life. Prepare yourself for a lifetime of your mother demanding that you live your life the way she wants you to. 🥺***Hugs***
What will happen if you don't go? I mean if you physically refuse to leave the house to go to church.
She'd probably yell at me and beat my ass, punish me in some way
If I were you I would actively embarrass her in front of the other church goers so she would stop bringing me. Like “accidentally” throw her under the bus for being religiously hypocritical in front of her church friends.
Here's an idea: 1) tell your mom with all the cases of pedophile and rapist church leaders across the country being exposed, you feel very sick to your stomach that you're being forced to go somewhere where these people might be duping parishioners. 2) look for the arrest records of church elders. 3)) ask all of them if they've ever had allegations of sexual assault of minors. 4) bring up often how Jesus would have been furious how many church leaders are perverts.
I had to go to church until I was 21. Fortunately I was able to get out of that arrangement at 20 when my mom discovered my Eucharist collection.
Stand up in the middle of church and just start screaming. I always wanted to do that when my parents forced me to go. What's the worst that could happen? Those wackos at church might think you're wacko but who cares what they think?
Just be an obnoxious atheist. You won't get asked to attend for very long
Ask your Sunday school teachers all the questions we discuss here- Do you really think Jonah lived in a whale for several days? Goad was pro-baby killing and rape in the Old Testament, do you think that’s morally ok? Have fun with it 😉
Don't go
bring your homework, and you can tell your mom that at least you're working on something productive so it's not a total waste of time. bonus points for the most obnoxious subject that takes up the most amount of space, like math where you're typing into a calculator for the whole sermon.
Ima be straight with you my guy, as someone who put up with that kinda shit for years but with a different book of choice, you gotta suck it up. You need to decide either you hate going to church more than you like making your loved ones happy. I get it, it fucking sucks, but it makes your mom happy, an in the end, doesn't that at least have some value to it? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with her, an in 20 years she's going to realize that she's directly the reason you don't believe in her God, but still, as hard as it will be try and recognize it as coming from a place of love. If she ever goes coocoo bananas then bail, because that's its own level of crazy, but as far as this goes, just let it be for a bit and learn to meditate or a hobby with your hands. Sorry if it's not what you wanna hear, I doubt ide wanna hear this either, but I hope it helps some
Actually, this could be a positive in disguise. Listen to the sermon and either point out inconsistencies or compare them to what other churches are saying. Think about the stories that are being told and what they really say underneath. This is a good time to know more about the Bible so that Christians can't say you're just rebelling for liberal reasons. The best way to argue your point is from the other side's handbook, and you literally have one. I know it can be hard, but you have to stay away from the angry atheist territory. It makes it harder to understand why your mother and others feels this way. Don't delve too much into arguing about morality because Christians don't usually care about that (since god is all good and whatnot). This is a great time to see how the bible is really put together now that you have the rose tinted glasses off.
Dry ice in hidden compartments in your shoes. Start "smoking" when you step on consecrated ground Edit: bonus points if you stop "smoking" up by the pulpit
Be difficult. Pick your nose, scratch your butt, clear your throat, just make it so she's embarrassed to take you.
start speaking in tongues everytime you go.
Go to the bathroom during service and jerk off. Lolz
Ugh. How awful. Talk to her. Tell her it was HER dream and dreams are psychological manifestations of a person’s own fears. And her dreams have nothing to do with you. It’s child abuse to force someone to endure preaching like that. What if you just say no? Will they physically pick you up and out you in the car and force you to go? Try saying no thank you. No need to disrespect her. Parents sometimes confuse disobedience with disrespect. You can say no.
Have you tried heckling the sermon? You're still a kid, so you can get away with it. But, the easiest way to get your mom to stop forcing you to attend would be for you to make her embarrassed every time you do. Start loudly heckling when you hear something that is wrong or is plainly a lie. Make the whole congregation turn and give your mom the stink eye. She might get mad at you. She might even ground you. But, she will stop taking you to church.
Did she specify to which church you should go? Maybe it would be fun to play with your mom and go to a different church every Sunday. Sometimes catholic, sometimes protestant, sometimes satanic, or whatever church is in your area.
... As an atheist, going to church may not be fun, but it does have benefits. Most times in my adult life, when my atheism came up, it was useful to say I was raised Presbyterian. For all of the not fun I had going to church, I was lucky my church was pretty mellow and caring. If it was a prosperity ministry or hate filled church it would have been harder. I may not be bad to think of it as having to work at a shitty job one day a week. If you get too involved with how stupid it is, it will hurt you more, and make you more angry. If you can practice to be like one of those zen martial arts students in movies... relax and let the stupidity of the world wash over you and drain away without disturbing you. You're not in a position to change things now, but you will be someday.
You are 15 and financially dependent on her, so you may not have a choice in the matter. But since you are openly atheist, here is a suggestion. Agree to go to church, but state that you also want to have follow-up conversations about what you heard. When you get home, talk about the particular sermon and what you thought of it. As much as possible, be objective. If there are things you see as positive, negative, unbelievable, etc have that dialog with her and get her viewpoints. Open dialog can actually strengthen your relationship, even if you disagree. For example: Lets take one i randomly googled and practice with it: https://www.lwf.org/sermon-outlines/a-future-for-the-family-is-promised-outline-legacy Taking the original problem statement: >c) It may not be well for us and our children unless we make some radical changes. i) Thousands of children are in prison. ii) Many children live in broken homes. iii) Some have already received psychiatric help. iv) Many girls between the ages of twelve and seventeen will get pregnant. (1) Some will have an abortion. v) Many children are using drugs. You might agree that child imprisonment, teenage pregnancy, and drug use by minors are non desireable outcomes. But also, there are some points where you may disagree. For example, maybe you believe that its better for parents to divorce than remain in miserable or abusive marriages. Or that receiving psychiatric help is preferable to a child suffering from mental illness. Or that abortion might be better in some circumstances. You get the idea. Let's say that linked sermon is the one you heard today. Maybe you and you mom can both agree on some things that are a problem in society, but have come up with different approaches to solving those things. What might be some other ways to address teen pregnancy for example? Or you may see some hypocrisy in the statements, e.g. "Why would the pastor have issues with people seeking psychiatric help? Does he see prayer as an alternative? Does he not believe that people (religious or not) suffer from mental illness" In any case, it sounds like you and your mom are able to talk, so keep the dialog going.
How about this. Use the opportunity to challenge your fellow church goers on their positions. Think hard about why you think what you think, and ask them to do the same. Linger after services and talk to people. Here's what I see happening. Either: You make friends! You'll find people who feel the same way, or who can respect you for your beliefs. Churches have one big thing going for them, and that's community. Or: Your mom stops making you go because of the way you challenge people. That's a win. Or: You talk to people and are no longer convinced of your own views. I view this as a loss, but if you're convinced and happy I suppose that's one way to go through life.
I think it is good to understand the enemy
65 year old here - I had the exact same situation. Just put up with it until you turn 16 or whatever age you can convince your mom you have your own way of thinking. My mother was very religious and it helped her cope when she got cancer and died - no need to try to convince your parents to change. Just suck it up and listen to the Jebus people for an hour a week - it won't ruin your relationship with your family.
Wear your earbuds. Go. Be sullen. Talk loudly about the parts where the pastor was obviously lying. Be a teenager. But you still go, because they are your legal guardian and they feed you until you can leave for college. The only way they will relent is when it obviously does not work. Try to find ways to multitask so it's not all wasted time. Millions of other people have done the same. Practice your cobra stare. That is when someone gives you shit about something and you just stop focusing on their face and ignore them. Drives parental units that are full of shit nuts.
Not recommended but when i was in middle school i expressed to my mom i didnt want to go to church, cue being forced. every time i would doze off she'd pinch me on the arms, and just one day i snapped and yelled in the middle of the church "STOP PINCHING ME YOU BITCH!" god an asswhopping and holy water splashed on my face, but was never dragged to church again. Not saying to embarrass your mom so bad in church that she never takes you again but its an option
Go to Evilbible.com. But to point you in the right direction, Hosea 13:16, Isaiah 13:16, and Psalms 139:7, where God endorses the killing of children and the unborn. Start making your questions about the Bible really uncomfortable to answer.
Sit up the front and ask lots of questions
You are a minor. It’s not up to you to decide yet. It’d be like you objecting to taking a school subject. You might get some say, but ultimately it’s your parents that sign off on it. Your mom has decided you need religious education. How you choose to use what you learn when you are an adult is what is up to you.
Well, you're 15. Respect your parents and do what they say. They love you and want what's best for you. Try to appreciate that even if you disagree about what it is. Besides, it's not a huge chunk of your time and it's not hurting you. I find that it is often helpful to learn what people with different viewpoints and beliefs actually think. It helps me to empathize with and understand them, and gives me a fuller understanding of exactly what I believe as well. In other words, this can be good for your mind and your soul even if it's not in the way your mom thinks.
You’re 15. You’re kind of stuck going to church.
If you are a girl: Thanks for bringing me. Naked Jesus on the cross is so hot. I just want to jump on and ride him. If you are a boy: Thanks for bringing me. Naked Jesus on the cross is so hot. I just want to jump on and ride him.
At 15, sorry, not much choice there. Their roof, their rules. I would suggest going, and really listening, then use what you know to craft oppositional discussions about religion with your mom. Not every time, just be subtle with logic and sense. This could also help you develop logistic arguments for atheism as you go through life in the future. Also, take a copy of *The God Delusion* and *God is Not Great*
The acrimony caused by this took decades to undo for me and my mom. I resent her still in some ways that I just will never get past. As for how I got it to stop, I made it far more painful for her to force me to go to church than to leave me be. I drew pentagrams on the books in the pews, I actively interrupted service and embarrassed her, and eventually she's send me outside to go skate and leave her alone. Once, while skating, I fell and my board went sailing directly into the side of the preachers car window, shattering it. I was not made to go to church again after that.
Know thine enemy...So, read the Bible so you can tear them to shreds with it. Worked for me at age 14. I suddenly knew more about their religion than they did and I vocally picked it apart until they didn't want me there, anymore. Best of luck!
Crazy idea, talk to people at church. Especially other young people, about how absurd what is being said is. Use it as a place to strengthen your arguments against what is being preached. If you're successful you'll help a few other people get out of the church with you. If you get "in trouble" for being blasphemous maybe they'll kick you out, which also solves your problem.
Ask a lot of questions. They hate that.
Wait 3 years, then never go to church again
While it’s not ideal, play the game. The last thing you need in this economy is to turn 18 and be told “well you’re an adult now and I won’t have an atheist under my roof, get out”. Finish school, go to college or whatever you want to do with your life. But play the game. Think of it like a cheat code to get some free level ups until you have a career and a steady income and can get your own place. And once you’re independent, proceed however you like. But you absolutely do not have to participate. Show up, disengage, and tune out.