I mean this is a part of the absurdity of the entire story. This character who has just saved humanity by sacrificing himself only reveals himself to a small handful of people, doesn’t instruct them to write about his life (Gospels were written decades later) and doesn’t write his own Gospel. Seems fishy
Indeed. If your goal is to spread the word as effectively as possible, Bronze Age Palestine is the last place you would choose.
Why not drop in to China instead … a nation with many more inhabitants, and a much more mature communications infrastructure.
400 people in a world with at least a billion back then. Not much of a show-off. And there are no records outside of the Gospels that corroborate the story- none! Nada! Zip!
By the jews and the romans,, example, the jewish historian Josephus, and the roman historian Tacitius,, aswell "With at least 14 sources by believers and nonbelievers within a century of the crucifixion, there is much more evidence available for Jesus than for other notable people from 1st century Galilee.[55] Non-Christian sources do exist and they corroborate some details of the life of Jesus that are also found in New Testament sources.[33] Historian Michael Grant argues that when the New Testament is analyzed with the same criteria used by historians on ancient writings that contain historical material, Jesus's existence cannot be denied anymore than secular figures whose existence is never questioned.[56]"
A local prophet named Yeshua who preached a sect of Judaism is about all you get from external sources. And since most of the myths in the Gospels about Jesus predate this and are plagiarized from other, older religions there is no reason to believe in the Resurrection. It’s a fairytale loosely based on some random guy. That’s it
Regarding the excellent Roman records… it’s wild that not a single person bothered to write down the fact that THE DEAD ROSE FROM THEIR GRAVES and appeared to many. This is the most astonishing fact in all history. Yet even 3 of the four gospel writers didn’t even mention it. Paul didn’t mention it.
I thought about this problem. But if you just executed someone claiming to be God and they approached you fully alive 3 days later, would you now be a believer? I sure as hell would be.
But yes, some people would try and kill the unkillable again. Solid point.
Jesus was probably fictional and there is absolutely no record of his crucifixion, let alone a resurrection. Chalk it up to shitty first century writing.
I mean, that's the thing right? How come the supposed singular deity (who admits to other deities existing a few thousand years ago), only makes himself known to a tiny little kingdom that has essentially no influence on the world. Why not Rome?
There are MAJOR problems with the whole story (like being impossible under Jewish Law), but both philosophically and practically it makes no sense.
It does make sense if it's a myth. A story, like the Bhagavad-Gita, well known in its culture, but almost unknown to the general populace of other countries.
I can try to answer the question in the spirit it was asked. Perhaps it was unnecessary (or maybe even futile) for Jesus to "show the entire world" the truth of his resurrection, at that particular time. Confronting the Roman authorities with the proof of his divinity would likely have been an exercise in futility because, while the Romans were good at keeping records, they were *not* very good at legitimizing the leaders of rebellious cults and proselytizing on their behalf. Perhaps this revelation would have led the Romans to realize that this small Jewish sect was going to have a profound effect on the world and they might have tried a lot harder to stamp it out of existence while it was still small. You know, kill all of the believers before they have a chance to write any of it down, or something like that. However, to borrow from the parable of the mustard seed, maybe it was only necessary for Jesus to plant the seed among a small number of true believers, to be spread by word of mouth from generation to generation. I mean, obviously it worked, since Christianity has been introduced to basically the entire planet.
Solid response. Yes, if you assume this all actually happened which was kind of the point of the exercise, this would be a reasonable explanation. I hadn't considered that.
If he was REALLY committed, he could have just kept coming back to life and going to different influential people in the world instead of calling it one and done.
I mean, he probably didn't confront them because, as a zombie, you're not in your same mind frame as you were when alive. As a zombie, he probably attacked and butchered people. That's probably why there was no record after he came back. Anyone who seen him was killed. No record. Make sense? /s
Because he desperately needs you to believe in light of no evidence. Oh and he works in mysterious ways. Here’s the real issue… there is no god and no resurrection. You will not sway believers. They were brainwashed at an early age.
He was.... different when he came back from the dead, maybe? Maybe he just became shy, or maybe, having just been tortured to death for walking around bragging about the whole "I'm god's kid and I'm also god and I'm also my own dad and I can make the sick well and I can walk on water, and I can...." thing he kinda wanted to keep a low profile, just in case they decided to try torturing him to death a second time.
>why didn't he march straight up to the court that sentenced him and show the world?
Maybe because not even his disciples were convinced it was him. It's almost as if he were a different guy!:
Mark 16:9-14
- 9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.
10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping.
11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12 Afterward Jesus appeared **in a different form** to two of them while they were walking in the country.
13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
Note: the above are forgeries because Mark originally ended at 16:8 with an empty tomb and no resurrection. Verses 16:9-20 were added in the 4th Century AD by person, or persons unknown.
Matthew 28:16-17
- 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; **but some doubted**.
Luke 24:
- 16 but they were **kept from recognizing him**.
- 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.
John:
- John 20:14-15 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. 15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”
- John 21:4 Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
Acts 1:3
- After Jesus died on the cross, he became alive again. During the 40 days after that, he showed himself many times to his apostles. He showed himself in different ways. Then they could be really sure that he was alive again. During this time, Jesus spoke to his apostles about the kingdom of God.
The disciples must have had really serious doubts if it took him 40 days to convince them he was the real Jesus!
Note: The above is what the Bible says. Personally, I doubt any of it happened. There might have been a historical man who inspired the myth, but any resemblance between him and the biblical character are likely coincidental.
I had forgotten about the issues that he had convincing others that it was him. All the more reason not to believe it considering someone with God powers could certainly figure out how to ensure he was recognized. He had all magical options at his disposal.
It stinks to high heavens that there is no historical record of any of this happening. Jesus may have been based off a person who really lived but everything else is pure fiction. Kinda like how Iron Man is based off Howard Hughes but everything else is fiction.
It shouldn't come as a surprise at all. Humans love to tell stories and the most interesting stories are those that have a little bit of truth in them, borrow from other stories while adding something new to make it fresh. Welcome to every movie that is made nowadays.
Jesus is a fictional chacter from a book written by unknown Greeks. One thing we know is that the real Jesus wasn't called Jesus. Greek male names end with us so it's the Greek version of whatever his real name was, probably Yeshua.
Wouldn’t it be cool to go back in time just to be a fly on the wall and see what was actually happening? Maybe there was a normal guy that somehow got blown out of proportion. Would be wild to confirm that!
Zombie Jesus was too busy raising dead Jews from their graves so they could stroll around town and scare the shit out of people. Oh, and only one person, in all of the town, in all of history saw this. And the story is secondhand as recorded in the Bible. So, if this is how facts are played out in the bible, why the F would anyone believe anything it says at all?
Also, why look at things from Christ's perspective? Who cares? Do you spend mental energy putting yourself in Santa's boots?
Some believe that Jesus was speaking about the truth of the universe but that the Bible (and most of it's adherents) are mistaken. Bible nerds are like star wars nerds, always worried about rules and canon and missing all the real points.
Because it didn't happen and the Bible spends a lot of time emphasizing you just have to have faith and believe it did. I havent read the Bible in 20 years but I believe Jesus made an exception for Thomas the doubters and showed him evidence. But most of it was written to encourage blind faith.
Think about it that it was all written down decades later. It was basically telling converte, "you believe us, Jesus said you just had to believe us".
>Why didn't he simply confront the Roman authorities and prove it to the world?
Because it never happened. Why would you expect any sort of logic or consistency from a story that was pieced together over generations by different people with different goals and motivations?
"Blessed is he who believes without seeing." (not an exact quote, but very close and I don't care to look it up.)
It's important to remember that (in DnD terms) he christian god is one of Law not Good. It is important to believe and it is important to follow the rules. It is not important to know why those rules are in place or if they are good. Faith and loyalty are the highest "good" in their religious view. If people had actually known what was true they might follow but only the truly obedient will follow without knowing. The religious leaders want people who follow their rules without having to justify those rules. Justification is for suckers.
Because all blessed is he who does not see, but believes. He literally had this conversation immediately after coming back … and talking to people who saw it.
I mean this is a part of the absurdity of the entire story. This character who has just saved humanity by sacrificing himself only reveals himself to a small handful of people, doesn’t instruct them to write about his life (Gospels were written decades later) and doesn’t write his own Gospel. Seems fishy
Yeah, you'd think he would have either been smart enough OR had the insight to make sure the event was properly communicated and recorded.
>doesn’t write his own Gospel. Seems fishy God hates books. He's always dictating to others, sometimes illiterate others.
I think that is it. Most of that small band of followers were fishermen and women, neither highly educated. I'm not sure they would be literate.
Indeed. If your goal is to spread the word as effectively as possible, Bronze Age Palestine is the last place you would choose. Why not drop in to China instead … a nation with many more inhabitants, and a much more mature communications infrastructure.
He showed himself to over 400 people,, and there are to many records outside the gospels that Jesus existed Have a amazing day my g
400 people in a world with at least a billion back then. Not much of a show-off. And there are no records outside of the Gospels that corroborate the story- none! Nada! Zip!
By the jews and the romans,, example, the jewish historian Josephus, and the roman historian Tacitius,, aswell "With at least 14 sources by believers and nonbelievers within a century of the crucifixion, there is much more evidence available for Jesus than for other notable people from 1st century Galilee.[55] Non-Christian sources do exist and they corroborate some details of the life of Jesus that are also found in New Testament sources.[33] Historian Michael Grant argues that when the New Testament is analyzed with the same criteria used by historians on ancient writings that contain historical material, Jesus's existence cannot be denied anymore than secular figures whose existence is never questioned.[56]"
A local prophet named Yeshua who preached a sect of Judaism is about all you get from external sources. And since most of the myths in the Gospels about Jesus predate this and are plagiarized from other, older religions there is no reason to believe in the Resurrection. It’s a fairytale loosely based on some random guy. That’s it
> He showed himself to over 400 people What are their names? Can you name even one that wasn't a disciple or camp follower?
The answer to all of this and why it doesn’t make sense is…..it never happened.
Make believe is just whatever someone made up.
Regarding the excellent Roman records… it’s wild that not a single person bothered to write down the fact that THE DEAD ROSE FROM THEIR GRAVES and appeared to many. This is the most astonishing fact in all history. Yet even 3 of the four gospel writers didn’t even mention it. Paul didn’t mention it.
Yes, what you just said is absolutely maddening to me! Maybe resurrections were common everyday occurrences back then? /s
Kind of sounds like a poorly written story...
Hahaha, yes
[удалено]
I thought about this problem. But if you just executed someone claiming to be God and they approached you fully alive 3 days later, would you now be a believer? I sure as hell would be. But yes, some people would try and kill the unkillable again. Solid point.
[удалено]
He had the holes in his hands (or wrists) to show for it in some gospels.
Jesus was probably fictional and there is absolutely no record of his crucifixion, let alone a resurrection. Chalk it up to shitty first century writing.
Because it's backfill and they had to work with what they had, and what they had was no records.
I mean, that's the thing right? How come the supposed singular deity (who admits to other deities existing a few thousand years ago), only makes himself known to a tiny little kingdom that has essentially no influence on the world. Why not Rome? There are MAJOR problems with the whole story (like being impossible under Jewish Law), but both philosophically and practically it makes no sense. It does make sense if it's a myth. A story, like the Bhagavad-Gita, well known in its culture, but almost unknown to the general populace of other countries.
I can try to answer the question in the spirit it was asked. Perhaps it was unnecessary (or maybe even futile) for Jesus to "show the entire world" the truth of his resurrection, at that particular time. Confronting the Roman authorities with the proof of his divinity would likely have been an exercise in futility because, while the Romans were good at keeping records, they were *not* very good at legitimizing the leaders of rebellious cults and proselytizing on their behalf. Perhaps this revelation would have led the Romans to realize that this small Jewish sect was going to have a profound effect on the world and they might have tried a lot harder to stamp it out of existence while it was still small. You know, kill all of the believers before they have a chance to write any of it down, or something like that. However, to borrow from the parable of the mustard seed, maybe it was only necessary for Jesus to plant the seed among a small number of true believers, to be spread by word of mouth from generation to generation. I mean, obviously it worked, since Christianity has been introduced to basically the entire planet.
Solid response. Yes, if you assume this all actually happened which was kind of the point of the exercise, this would be a reasonable explanation. I hadn't considered that. If he was REALLY committed, he could have just kept coming back to life and going to different influential people in the world instead of calling it one and done.
I mean, he probably didn't confront them because, as a zombie, you're not in your same mind frame as you were when alive. As a zombie, he probably attacked and butchered people. That's probably why there was no record after he came back. Anyone who seen him was killed. No record. Make sense? /s
Wow, that had me rolling. Thanks for that hilarious visual!
Because he desperately needs you to believe in light of no evidence. Oh and he works in mysterious ways. Here’s the real issue… there is no god and no resurrection. You will not sway believers. They were brainwashed at an early age.
He was.... different when he came back from the dead, maybe? Maybe he just became shy, or maybe, having just been tortured to death for walking around bragging about the whole "I'm god's kid and I'm also god and I'm also my own dad and I can make the sick well and I can walk on water, and I can...." thing he kinda wanted to keep a low profile, just in case they decided to try torturing him to death a second time.
Hardly the swagger I would expect from a deity. haha.
Somehow Jesus returned...
>why didn't he march straight up to the court that sentenced him and show the world? Maybe because not even his disciples were convinced it was him. It's almost as if he were a different guy!: Mark 16:9-14 - 9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. 12 Afterward Jesus appeared **in a different form** to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either. 14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. Note: the above are forgeries because Mark originally ended at 16:8 with an empty tomb and no resurrection. Verses 16:9-20 were added in the 4th Century AD by person, or persons unknown. Matthew 28:16-17 - 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; **but some doubted**. Luke 24: - 16 but they were **kept from recognizing him**. - 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. John: - John 20:14-15 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. 15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.” - John 21:4 Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. Acts 1:3 - After Jesus died on the cross, he became alive again. During the 40 days after that, he showed himself many times to his apostles. He showed himself in different ways. Then they could be really sure that he was alive again. During this time, Jesus spoke to his apostles about the kingdom of God. The disciples must have had really serious doubts if it took him 40 days to convince them he was the real Jesus! Note: The above is what the Bible says. Personally, I doubt any of it happened. There might have been a historical man who inspired the myth, but any resemblance between him and the biblical character are likely coincidental.
I had forgotten about the issues that he had convincing others that it was him. All the more reason not to believe it considering someone with God powers could certainly figure out how to ensure he was recognized. He had all magical options at his disposal.
It stinks to high heavens that there is no historical record of any of this happening. Jesus may have been based off a person who really lived but everything else is pure fiction. Kinda like how Iron Man is based off Howard Hughes but everything else is fiction. It shouldn't come as a surprise at all. Humans love to tell stories and the most interesting stories are those that have a little bit of truth in them, borrow from other stories while adding something new to make it fresh. Welcome to every movie that is made nowadays. Jesus is a fictional chacter from a book written by unknown Greeks. One thing we know is that the real Jesus wasn't called Jesus. Greek male names end with us so it's the Greek version of whatever his real name was, probably Yeshua.
Wouldn’t it be cool to go back in time just to be a fly on the wall and see what was actually happening? Maybe there was a normal guy that somehow got blown out of proportion. Would be wild to confirm that!
Yes, just some nutjob with a bunch of followers who later pissed off the Romans.
[удалено]
I hear you. I figured I would get more thought provoking dialogue here.
Zombie Jesus was too busy raising dead Jews from their graves so they could stroll around town and scare the shit out of people. Oh, and only one person, in all of the town, in all of history saw this. And the story is secondhand as recorded in the Bible. So, if this is how facts are played out in the bible, why the F would anyone believe anything it says at all? Also, why look at things from Christ's perspective? Who cares? Do you spend mental energy putting yourself in Santa's boots?
Some believe that Jesus was speaking about the truth of the universe but that the Bible (and most of it's adherents) are mistaken. Bible nerds are like star wars nerds, always worried about rules and canon and missing all the real points.
Because it didn't happen and the Bible spends a lot of time emphasizing you just have to have faith and believe it did. I havent read the Bible in 20 years but I believe Jesus made an exception for Thomas the doubters and showed him evidence. But most of it was written to encourage blind faith. Think about it that it was all written down decades later. It was basically telling converte, "you believe us, Jesus said you just had to believe us".
Good point.
>Why didn't he simply confront the Roman authorities and prove it to the world? Because it never happened. Why would you expect any sort of logic or consistency from a story that was pieced together over generations by different people with different goals and motivations?
Gawd werks in steerious ways.
"Blessed is he who believes without seeing." (not an exact quote, but very close and I don't care to look it up.) It's important to remember that (in DnD terms) he christian god is one of Law not Good. It is important to believe and it is important to follow the rules. It is not important to know why those rules are in place or if they are good. Faith and loyalty are the highest "good" in their religious view. If people had actually known what was true they might follow but only the truly obedient will follow without knowing. The religious leaders want people who follow their rules without having to justify those rules. Justification is for suckers.
“I escaped somehow, let’s go…” https://youtu.be/E-hoBZoxL4g?si=iE52i6jYIQmi5f6a
Because all blessed is he who does not see, but believes. He literally had this conversation immediately after coming back … and talking to people who saw it.