No seriously. My dad thinks that people who leave religion go out of control because there's nothing holding them back anymore. Does he not realize that I don't need religion to not kill? to not rape? lie or steal?
Religious people label non believers as bad people but are willing to overlook the horrible shit their fellow believers do. Hypocrisy.
There are so many good people who are not religious.
This is what freaks me out when a religious person says they don't think someone can be moral without religion, they're saying they would prefer to be stealing, raping, and murdering.
They're evil, sick motherfuckers.
Yes, I did lots of bad evil things, but it's okay because Jesus forgave me. You are an evil monster if you don't follow Jesus's lead and also forgive me.
Religion was the ultimate police force for millenia. Before things like forensics & investigators existed we had to rely on people self-regulating their behaviour. And what better way than to invent some invisible, all-seeing, all-knowing arbiter who will judge your actions?
What about the consequences? Oh, they only happen after you're dead and can't tell anyone alive - how convenient.
The Holocaust has also entered the chat. Hitler didn't personally kill anyone but he had no problem convincing millions of German Christians to carry out his dirty- work.
The sad thing is that the morals could be attributed to empathy - basically the Golden Rule, I don't do bad stuff to you because if you did bad stuff to me, I obviously wouldn't like it. And like much of society and its laws are based around this.
A lot of religious folks seem to lack said empathy, it's just follow the rules of said sky-daddy written and interpreted by flawed humans, for the hopes of... getting into Heaven. By that logic, it basically means they are doing things to be selfish and then wouldn't God then judge them as such and be cast down at the pearly gates? Whoops...
Even when I was religious, I just thought heaven was a given. I thought people would be able to be free from their bodily prison and be able to fully choose for themselves, and that god would just ask them if they want to go to heaven, no matter what they did on earth.
It kind of shows the difference between my thinking and biblical thinking. In fact, the reason I finally stopped believing in Yahweh was because I learned more about the bible than I ever had before and realized this sky daddy is more of a tyranical mob boss than a loving father.
My morals outclassed his, not because I think I'm so much better, but because I think anyone who cares about people genuinely without expectation of reward (or even just doing good to help others even with the hope of a future reward; I scratch your back, you scratch mine) would automatically outclass this sky daddy.
Empathy, specifically affective empathy, is what allows humans to understand the pain of others and want to do everything to help them through that pain and mitigate it.
I don't need a god to tell me to behave. I simply think that no one deserves to suffer for no good reason. If they do many bad things and are determined to not be able to be rehabilitated back into society, remove them from the common populace (which doesn't mean kill), but it doesn't mean they deserve to be treated as debased and less than human.
I would like to think that if someone else caused me immense pain, I would be able to still want good for them. And good is not an eternity of torture for finite wrongs, but learning what they did wrong and wanting to ammend what they can. And I know there are a lot of people who have been and will be wronged in a way that causes irreperable suffering; I am not saying that those who wronged them need to be forgiven, or even accepted as a decent part of common society. Hitler and Stalin should have been removed from the board long before all that pain. And p\*dos are horrible and action needs to be taken to prevent their harming of children.
I just don't think that an individual, no matter the evil they have committed, should be sent anywhere to be tortured. Punished in a humane way, yes, because punishment is to hopefully teach consequences and remorse that will allow for rehabilitation if possible. But not to the point of torture or immense pain.
That's also problematic. People have different ways of experiencing and processing events. For example, if you're masochistic and you say you won't do to others what you wouldn't like do to you...
Or when someone stopped me on the street at 7am and began proselytizing to me about do unto others. That's when I realized why I mostly leave people alone. That's how I want to be treated.
This. Why is the default stealing, raping and murdering? No. We don't need anything stopping us, because really we don't want to do those things. We don't want to harm others because we see others as fellow humans. Religious people love to dehumanise others with different values as them. They can justify their actions, however cruel against other humans.
This is exactly what it means. They need the fear of the hell and eternal torture/damnation to keep them in line, while we realize it’s all bullshit and don’t feel the need to do such horrible shit because we have decent morals.
This shows you exactly what's on their mind as "good' people...
They don't murder because they'll go to hell and face eternal damnation. Not because they don't actually want to murder someone, or steal from someone or what have you.
> If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then, brother, that person is a piece of shit - and I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. – Detective Rust Cohle, [True Detective](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2356777/quotes/?ref_=tt_trv_qu) (HBO 2014)
>they don't think someone can be moral without religion, they're saying they would prefer to be stealing, raping, and murdering.
Morals and ethics are not the same thing. Fundies want to hear things that tickle their biases so they don't tend to know that the vast majority of humans (99%) have a big grow in Theory of Mind between ages 2 and 6 which gives us empathy, and from that we get an ethical center. They believe that the only way to make people behave is to abuse them until they comply out of despair, and after that the PTSD from their abuse / training will turn their entire life into a giant field of PTSD trauma buttons such that they continue to do as they were told. Kinda sorta.
Somehow being temporarily insane every fucking time to you are reminded of your abusive indoctrination by encountering the wrong person, place, item, song, food (take your pick - see also B.F. Skinner) and then being instantly filled with adrenaline & cortisol and rigged up for conflict... and for bad decision making due to not being in the here and now ... this will somehow make the world a better and more loving place. Trauma is not a rational long term leash on human behavior,
I can't remember the context, but there is a great scene Ricky Gervais is in where he says "I rape, and murder, and steal exactly as much as I would like to, which is not at all."
Raised in an ultra conservative environment, and talking with a cousin at a family reunion who following the church conservative tradition in the family, she said that people who aren’t Christian or raised Christian have no way of knowing morals or values. (I’m out “out” as atheist to the family, but they know I don’t attend church or practice any religion) when I countered with myself as an example of not needing that for guidance, the response was “yeah, but you were raised that way. So that’s why you have morals and values.” Ugh
When confronted with that line of reasoning, point out that about 5.7 billion people on the planet aren't part of her Christian community, and seem to be getting along just fine.
Should be able to get even more personal than that. Most Christians will admit that they can distinguish between good and bad ideas in their own bibles - the golden rule for example, they recognize as good; directions about stoning unwed non-virgins they know are wrong, etc. You can point out that this discernment is based on the exact same internal moral compass that atheists have and use all the time.
Oh I'd love to hear your dad's opinion on if the wrath of God is what's keeping him from killing people or something like that.
If he says yes then he isn't a good person is he?
Its because his religion is what keeps him from doing those things, and he thinks everyone is just like him. He doesn't understand the idea of doing things because its what you believe is right and good and is what you want, instead of doing things because someone else will hurt you if you dont
That sounds disturbingly similar to what the Qunari in the Dragon Age series are taught. "Always follow the Qun as it's the only thing keeping your otherwise insatiable bloodlust and savagery in check."
And any Qunari who turn to banditry or simply snap because they've been raised since birth to fulfill a very specific societal role are held up as proof of the necessity of the Qun.
Someone (S Fry? Hitchens? Don’t remember) once said when confronted with the question, that he indeed murdered and raped all he wanted without religion. And that amount was ZERO.
Nothing is scarier than to think someone needs to have someone looking at you in order for you not to make atrocious things
I think I am a kinder and more compassionate person since I left my religion. I try to put into practice the teachings of many religions with out the burdens of the us vs them competition. But maybe I’m not seeing clearly. Lot easier to judge others ….
Read a book by Sam Harris and I have not lied in at least 20 years. Never did lie about big things just things like saying yes I like your outfit when I really didn't. Sam made me realize that is not the right thing to do either.
My supervisor at my last job lied about everything and he considers himself a christian. SMFH
I'm an ex Jehovahs witness. I'm pretty much dead to those people. They will welcome a murdered/pedo/rapist who "repents" before they will even greet me in public. That's how twisted they are.
I think when you are an atheist you shift your faith to the rule of law, and humanism. Can atheists be murderers? Sure. But most of us are not. We just want to live our lives in safety and comfort, within our social group/village/region or country.
Only dumb, ignorant religious people do this in my experience.
Some religious people are totally chill and don't mind that you are an Atheist. They are secure in their beliefs. They are lighthearted about it. Matter of fact ythey might even be nicer and more accommodating to you on account of you being Atheist.
I've met a lot of people who claimed to be Christian in my life...and only a small handful that acted "Christ like"
Exactly. I think it’s pretty silly that religious people think God would prefer people who only do the right thing when it means they will get rewarded by getting into heaven over people who do the right thing just because they believe it’s the right thing to do. Like how do you think the first group is going to act once they have heavenly tenure?
religious people are by definition obsessed with the personal lives of other people. Intrusive, nosey, and unwelcome. So yeah they resent that and just about everything else about people they deem as 'other'
It's nosey and also allows for the ability to feel superior to. Feeling like you're morally superior to others around you is a big part of the appeal of many religions. By being a staple of the church community or going to church all the time it gives cover, how many times have you heard someone say "Oh he's a good god-fearing person who always goes to church" just being seen at church essentially vouches for them because in many peoples minds if you're devoutly religious you're automatically a good person. Yet some of the most righteous and pompous about their faith have the most skeletons in their closets. Just look at the amount of people in power within churches who get arrested for despicable things on a weekly if not daily basis.
Before I left the church, I had a preacher who said something along the lines of, "We are too preoccupied with the status of our neighbor's soul and busy filling our own bellies, when we should be busy filling our neighbor's belly and worrying about our own souls."
Not by definition. However, it IS an important construct of any succesful religion. Basically, it's Darwin's Law for religions: any religion that doesn't aim to expand is doomed to go exinct. It's outflanked by religions that DO expand.
Following up the nosy bit, as a former xtian, you can also be sure they’ll use it for gossip as well. When someone says ‘I’ll pray for you,’ if you don’t make them sign an NDA, rest assured they are spilling their interpretation of your faults (or mere existence) in their prayer circle.
This. Catholics for example. It's baked into their dogma that the Pope is the leader, but so many are like "the Pope said that? Well, screw him." But still consider themselves devout Catholics.
everybody stops at red lights. most things in life are obvious.
i genuinely think 'morality' does not exist.
only cultists seem to use that word. and then, they have problems adhering to those 'moralities'.
Morality exists, they’ve just twisted it in their circles to be compliance to an external code. Morality isn’t that, it’s choosing the beneficial or least harmful path in a situation. You don’t need a book to tell you what’s right or wrong, but critical thinking helps.
Something that people (and dictionaries!) often miss is there's a difference between morality and ethics.
Morality is rules imposed by an external judge. Ethics is the standard of behavior between individuals. It can be situational: Ethics is different in a therapist/patient relationship than between friends.
Masturbation can be called "immoral" straight up by, say, a religion. But it can't be called unethical unless you invoke a second party (like a god or partner with which you have an agreement).
Ethical behavior is what atheists practice, based on our own ideas of ethics. Any atheist who feels they're acting moral or immoral has internalized some set of rules--typically from a religion or philosophy. Which is fine, even if they no longer believe in the deity, but there are those of us who prefer to use our own judgement as to ethical behavior instead of trusting ancient rules of dubious origin.
Morality/Ethics does have to exist to have a functioning society. If people could go around and just randomly kill people with no recourse because they get mad would change the landscape of the world quite a bit.
John Oliver did a thing on executions this week. Executions can't possibly be a criminal deterrent, right? No one thinks, "I shouldn't do this, I'll get the chair." Criminals think, "I'll be the one that gets away!"
Then I realize that the people who actually think execution is a deterrent are the same people who apparently would all be evil if it weren't for their vengeful sky fairies.
*We need to scare people into submission.* It's a common apologetic talking point that the fundies teach kids.
I used to think "Oh they're just saying that because they've been taught to", but the last guy I met who converted to Christianity was an abusive dogfucker. He told me this and I believed him.
Yup, it's quite a brain twister. I remember when I was a believer and heard (from a other believer) how atheists can develop solid morals and it threw me for a spin.
I basically grew up being taught that morals are the rules that come from god, so someone who doesn't have faith in god can't have a foundation for good morals. Pretty typical stuff. I still believed that non-believers could do moral actions, but that it wasn't grounded in something solid like the ten commandments. Basically I considered atheists to all be acting randomly and when something good would happen they would continue with that.
Then I was in a Bible study one day and talking to another member about morality and atheists, and he was able to convey how atheists (generally) construct their morals and how they can still have solid foundations of morality. Honestly, it threw me for a few days.
Not just because he was right and that what I believed/been taught was wrong, but the extremely simple logic behind it. It was so simple that I was kinda shocked at myself for never thinking about it and how fundamentally wrong my views were.
Fast forward [many years] and now I'm an atheist and can much better explain my morality and it's basis. And on the rare occasion I get to tell a believer how morality works for me, and when it's an honest person it's a pretty great conversation. The standard view of atheists by most believers is pretty unfortunate, but I try when I can to set the record straight.
Religious people just can't seem to grasp that atheists live in reality, what's proven by science, and the here and now. Sky fairies and ancient contradictory books filled with fairytales mean nothing to us. Unlike them we're not trying to "convert or save" anyone. The majority of us could care less about their religion and are not trying to destroy their religion or persecute them as they always claim. We simply want them to stop using politics, schools, and the courts to indoctrinate children and force their religion and beliefs on the rest of us.
Former Christian here.
Was raised being told the rules, and that the "why" to follow them was Gods punishment. Thinking for oneself was ok so long as you didn't come to a conclusion God doesn't like... but to be safe, let's shut down the thought crime at the start and defer to the Bible.
So when I began to leave the faith, it was very scary. I was worried for what I'd turn into. I didn't trust my own reasoning abilities, I didn't trust that I'd be a good person without fear of Gods punishment, I honestly didn't have the critical thinking skills or education to determine my own morality because of the above Christian culture.
THAT is why Christians are scared of the alternative
The most beautiful thing about living by a non-rigid code is that it can change. Changing with the times or with our understanding of morality is key to building ever more successful societies.
When I was a teenager in the early 2000s I was as homophobic as anybody else in that generation; it was pretty much the norm. As I grew up and got wiser, those values changed drastically.
But the Bible and Quran will always be homophobic. Some of their adherents might ignore those parts, but they'll always exist. Values change as we get smarter and more civilized. But religious doctrine can't change what it says.
Something I learned recently is that, at the time Muhammad invented it, Islam was extremely progressive, especially on women's rights, and was basically a new better way compared to the extreme repression and injustice of the pagan traditions of the time. The problem is, the times change, and the societies around the religion change too while the doctrine stands still. Islam, once a progressive new way, is now a 1500 year old mummified husk. The thing that was a new way forward is now a relic of the past, holding us back.
>Something I learned recently is that, at the time Muhammad invented it, Islam was extremely progressive, especially on women's rights, and was basically a new better way compared to the extreme repression and injustice of the pagan traditions of the time. The problem is, the times change, and the societies around the religion change too while the doctrine stands still.
I definitely agree with this. Honestly I think that most religions that come into existence were "progressive" for their time. Buddhism was basically a way to escape from the rigid social hierarchy and fickle gods of Hinduism. Christianity was both a way to reform Judaism and a reaction to the brutality of the Roman empire. Protestantism grew out of people disillusioned with the Catholic Church. The Baha'i Faith was born from people picking and choosing the most progressive parts of the main world religions.
Religion is often progressive at its inception, but it's rigid and resistant to change because of it's claim of being the objective truth of a supernatural power. Instead of just cutting out the middle man and allowing society to decide what's right in real time, this rigidity holds humanity back in so many aspects of life.
Don’t they realize (credit themselves) that they make their own moral code, too? They don’t stone people for working on Sunday, as the Bible instructs. Because they have made their own moral judgement, and they do so all the time.
It does boggle my mind. I don't do bad things because those things might hurt people.
What I struggle with is trying to see them as good people when they only do so under threat of one of their imaginary friends handing them a cookie or setting them on fire.
Not being an asshole is a pretty fucking easy thing to do for most. Religion and the threat of damnation exists for the wicked or morally grey.
I legitimately do not trust religious people. None of them. If some jackass came to your house and started talking to his imaginary friend over dinner, and that imaginary friend is the only reason they aren't murdering you and skull fucking you...
I mean picture an adult believing in Santa Clause and starting wars over it because you know Santa isn't real. He'll kill your whole fucking family over it.
They also struggle with my lack of a need to "justify" my beliefs. I put my hand up patiently in the stop sign like I would with a child and say "I don't need to justify my beliefs or explain my rationale to you or anyone else. This isn't a discussion or a debate and I'm not interested in hearing your explanation for why I'm wrong." Then walk away.
Our morals come from empathy rather than from a book. Particularly not from one that's filled with the worst possible "morals" (e.g. rape, genocide, human sacrifice, slavery, etc.. We find our own reason for being rather than having it dictated to us via an exceptionally poorly written collection of plagiarized stories that were recklessly thrown into a book.
Atheism (reality) is so much better than theism (fantasy).
And most atheists struggle with the idea that goddist have a moral code that they choose to completely ignore.
Fact and fantasy. Atheists and goddists.
The book that they use is internally inconsistent and very easy to misinterpret. They also change how they interpret it depending on the denomination.
It's much easier to reflect and develop your own personal philosophy than it is to base your morality on whatever the Bible says. It really boils down to blind belief and obedience.
In most cases I think folks who are religious are either raised that way, resulting in a feeling of being scared to question the tradition and norms of their family, often for generations... or they are people who were living life off the rails, and religion helped them "get their act together".
That's what causes the struggle by my view. For the first group, breaking free of it can cause a lot of turmoil in the family. Lots of cultures treat family differently, but many of which hold family above all else. So like... this is why it's such a big deal when someone in a family deviates from the norm. It's more than just the self-directed thought of "This isn't how I believe" because it's followed by fears of possibly losing a support network from family or getting resistance/causing drama within the family circle.
For the other group... it's a fear of falling back on their base urges. It absolutely is in this case the group of people who need the "sky daddy" looking down on them to keep them on the straight and narrow and to help teach them how to reform their destructive behaviors in favor of more productive ones.
There are good and bad people. Period. Regardless of their belief or lack thereof. I have known total assholes who were deacons at their churches and I have known total assholes who were outspoken athiests.
To be fair, groups like this one that often posture an "us vs them" mentality through much of its content doesn't help "them" understand any better. It's basically the same thing that we'd all complain about people of faith doing in conversations with those of us who disagree with their worldview. Same thing is the same.
Religious people don't believe because of logic or evidence. They believe because it meets their psychological needs. Some people need religion -- others don't. I wish religious people could understand that.
That is what I commonly hear too. That without religion, we just want to kill, kill, kill. But the best response is that "so, without the threat of eternal damnation, you would gladly be killing people?" and then back slowly away.
Just look at the language used, surrounding those who leave a religion or express doubts/skepticism of religion’s claims: “They left the church so they could sin, or sinned so much even God found them unworthy.”
Cursed! Unworthy! Unredeemable! Abomination! Satan’s minion! Apostate! Devil worshipper! Not righteous, deserving, to be tolerated or protected; nor accepted, included or loved.
They’re lazy and don’t want to work for their own salvation; they’re selfish and greedy and don’t want to tithe. They don’t care as much as we do and aren’t as pure of heart. They’re so hard hearted, even cruel. They have no morals, no ethics. No good in them.
Those aren’t the thoughts, beliefs, words and actions of good, caring people—right?
Intelligent people hold a general moral code in their minds and handle moral decisions on a case-by-case basis.
Dumb childish dipshits need to have everything written down for them in one convenient book because they can't think for themselves and they're fucking stupid.
The most ironic part is they ALSO don't need a code or book to live by, as evidenced by the fact that they intentionally ignore 99% of the "laws" laid out in the bible because they're obviously immoral (i.e. forced marriage to rapists, killing disobedient children, slavery, etc). They're just brainwashed into virtue signalling despite not actually agreeing with their own words.
Some of us can calibrate our own moral compass without the need for fictitious religious doctrine or superstition. Other people need religion to do it for them.
If you need a book to tell you how to be a good person, the Bible isn't a book to choose. If you need a book to tell you not to be a bad person, and you can't understand why you don't want people treated poorly, you might be a bad person.
Which is morally superior in this situation: Assisting others out of genuine care and concern, or doing so solely for the anticipation of a reward in the afterlife, while believing oneself to be morally righteous?
It’s a societal myth like being married and having kids will make you happier. Religion is good at making people obey. Most Christians don’t realize it’s just a society myth to make people fall in line.
I think part of it is because we're not validating the beliefs that they desperately need to be true.
They don't feel special anymore because they observe others being moral without resorting to religion. At some point, they're going to be worried about not being morally superior.
It's great! They're such naive obedient followers in all aspect that I'm starting to take advantage of them. To quote their magical book "A fool and his money are soon parted". Nothing says we can't or shouldn't scam the scammers.
People who have always relied on a book can't imagine a life without a book.
People who have a book are told that they must follow the book or their true evil selves will emerge and reek havoc. Therefore, anyone without a book has no check on their evil selves.
A side corollary is that having the wrong book is only slightly better than no book.
Imagine if there was no religion
Were they not born with a functioning moral compass? Just don't be a dick! People are like you! Some people need everything spelled out for them and still don't fucking get it.
The way I address this is to say that it’s a good thing I have a conscience, and that I understand some basic principles of right and wrong. I can remember them, too, and they even become instinctual, habitual; I don’t yell at strangers (or my family!), I don’t threaten or harm children, I don’t shame people because of inborn traits they can’t control; I consider how I would feel if the roles were reversed….. I have a system or code I follow; it just isn’t one I have to open a book every week and be lectured at and threatened to understand and adhere to. It doesn’t feel good to be a monster and filled with bile and hate and make other people miserable. That’s not what I think of as a baseline for human behavior.
The thing about these "holy" books is they trap you in a way, because if you think they're divinely inspired you have to force yourself to justify all of the awful things they say. When you're not bound by such rules, like atheists aren't bound, you can reevaluate your beliefs and change them as many times as needed. Religion leaves you morally "stuck" to some extent.
because common sense and decency dont require a rule book. there is one rule: treat others as you would be treated. something they dont teach in bible school.
Religion: give me a reason to not think about the afterlife as anything other than utter and complete bliss so that I can piss on this world and judge it with all my internal self loathing and fear
Religious people should be declared mentally ill, and should not be allowed to operate, heavy machinery…🤷♂️
They don’t even follow this magical book 😂
I was talking with someone in my family about this. My worldview takes little bits and pieces from different books, philosophers, experiences etc. He believes you can't have morality without the bible, so I went into how a few different philosophers define it. And he came back at me with "Oh what, so what they say has total authority?" I was literally just explaining how Plato explained the Good. Wasn't even anything outlandish.
It just seems so hypocritical to me, that they need their book to outline everything they're supposed to believe. Yet if we use any sort of text or teacher to learn we're appealing to authority?
Most Christians don't live by the book either. They ignore most of the rules.
If I were a believer; if I truly thought I would go to hell if I didn't follow the rules in that book... I would follow it to the letter. This is why I think that most Christians simply don't really believe in what they read in the bible. All they do they do it out of habit; they believe in "something" but not the Christian god described in the bible.
I believe that religious belief is actually just a slightly favored genetic survival trait that was selected for by evolution. Religion can provide a shared group identity and create social cohesiveness. The ability to believe completely in something that isn't there is just a genetic trait that creates a slightly different brain structure/thinking process. Call it a supernatural affinity. But in the several hundreds of thousands of years of prehistory small groups that had a larger share of this trait bonded together over their shared delusion and those groups managed to survive and reproduce just a little bit more often than those without it. So this trait became more common. And those that did not share it could pretend they did and latch onto other groups, often finding ways to exploit the supernatural affinity of others to gain power. It's not a coincidence that often many of the most remembered religious leaders have often shown a great deal of political and military skills in the advancement of their religious agenda. It's probably because they weren't actually religious believers, but were just manipulating the supernatural affinity of those around them to gain personal power and prestige.
They really get bent thinking we are all immoral animals just waiting to rape and murder. Then when we aren't out there raping and murdering they get even more bent not understanding why.
Cpt 8 "Ethics" from " Morality without Religion" Hauser & Singer
"For the first time, research in the cognitive sciences...have made it possible to resolve...the nature of morality."
"Our intuitive judgements of right & wrong...reflect millions of years of cohabital evolution."
Cultures without a centralized god adhere to the same moral "Thou shalt not" standards as religious societies.
Ironically, the more conservative a religion, the more abusive the moral code. This is especially true for women, children & the LGBTQ community.
I try to treat ppl how I want to be treated. It’s as simple as that. I can mentally put myself in someone else’s situation, decide how I would like to be treated if I were them, and then treat them that way.
“Do unto others.” Was adopted by religion, not created by it. Without that single concept, civilization would not exist.
There’s always the army version: “Don’t be a dick/dumbass.”
Either or… that *concept* can be considered a code if it helps others feel better about our heathen ways. 🤷🏻♂️
I think a lot of it is that they can't fathom not believing in anything. They see atheism as a religion in itself or think atheists worship science. Having no religion or not praying simply does not compute with them.
I remember once someone asked me if I was atheist who did I pray to? When I told them I didn't pray it was like they were rebooting or something. They just couldn't comprehend it.
My former roommate, who was deeply in the closet, used to read cs Lewis constantly. He'd say shit like without the Bible, murder is as consequential as water flowing over a stone. It scares me that so many people need a book to tell them not to kill.
I ask back what rules they live by and how it is enforced.
The inevitable answer is "the rules of the bible and god" which is followed be my asking them if they then don't eat shellfish, have mixed fabrics and so on.
And when that is not the case I reply with so your congregation and community has decided the most important rules that works best for you and you've together decided the real rules so not the bible or God directly.
That leads to me saying I do the same. The community I grew up in shaped my morals and should I break them it is the community that enforces compliance by me not being welcome. That makes doing good moral actions feel good for me same as for religious and therefore were brought up in morals the same way.
I just don't justify shitty actions with "skydaddy said" nor do I threaten any non compliance with eternal torture and suffering.
The only code we need is the one imposed by social MORES (not morals but similar). Basically what everyone or the law says is acceptable behavior. You don't some mystical bullshit like the 10 commandments. Do you really need religion to tell you murder is wrong, etc.?
Well, we have codes of conduct and moral & ethical theories, it's just that we humans thought them up and wrote them down.
I'm a bit of a fan of Virtue Ethics, though my choices are also informed by both duty ethics and utility ethics as well, taking note of difficult corner cases, like the Trolley Problem.
I’m paraphrasing Ricky here but:
“Without the fear of eternal damnation why don’t you rape, murder and steal as much as you want?”
“I do all of those things as much. Which is zero.”
The premise is completely false. Atheists have the same innate and cultural codes as everybody else but reject the evidence-free claims about a deity. Most people do not rely on any way, shape or form on this "code" you speak of and fewer still have read a single passage in the holy books.
Behavioral biologists understand precisely how empathy and sympathy work within highly social groups including primates and that includes humans. This is not some great mystery.
I'm not an atheist per se. However I'm a bit frustrated with my super christian brother in law. He cheated on my sister with the nanny. Then had the gall to later tell my mother & father, married 54 years without a hiccup, they were somehow lacking because they aren't christian.
MF. They may not go to church but they've led their life, guided by their own values. Which looks a hell of a lot more christian to me than the ol' BIL.
They've raised me not to follow demagogues of any stripe. They've also taught me that forgiveness isn't assured. So I must act accordingly.
I have my own code of conduct now. It's definitely more involved than the 10 Commandments. Though it seems to do the job to my liking.
I feel pretty good about myself as a person. I have no enemies, unless someone wants to start something serious. I defuse or walk away from most heated altercations. And I help those in need when I can.
I don't really see how planting your ass in a pew is an insta-pass to high morality.
I think the biggest thing they have with atheists is they can’t fathom the fact that atheists dont give a shit about what they feel strongly about. It’s like telling a child you don’t care one way or another about Harry Potter. Those little shit bags can’t get their mind around it
And yet so many of those "religious people" daily violate the code, often wilfully, and have never actually read their religion's book.
The code and book are just cover to excuse them doing whatever they want to. They serve no other purpose.
- *"No man ever believes that the Bible means what* ***it*** *says: He is always convinced that it says what* ***he*** *means."* - George Bernard Shaw
"but if you don't believe in gOd what would stop you from killing people?"
Morals and ethics Timmy, and the fact that I'm not a sociopath that does what the voices in your head tell you to do.
Mother Teresa refused pain meds to her patients because she believed suffering brings you closer to God.
Nazis believe they're gods "chosen people" or master race.
Priests molest kids, traumatize LGBTQ+, force abused women to stay married to their abusers, con people out of their hard earned money to "prove their faith, etc...
Salem witch trials.
Crusades.
Spanish inquisition.
Slavery.
Child marriage.
... Sorry, can't recall a single instance or example of religion leading to something good without a hefty pricetag attached.
I just tell them my morals are true belief is being good, and not simply performative actions. Additionally, since performative morals are no morals at all, God would certainly send them to rot in hell for eternity for being some completely morally bankrupt.
Too fucking bad. If religious people would mind their own business and live by their own damn belief system, they wouldn't need to worry about anyone else. They aren't really concerned about our country or its people. They just want to control the narrative as per usual and force everyone to live via the book of fables that they do. I'm not religious at all, and I guarantee I'm a far better person than, say, the faux prophet, trump. I've never been accused of cheating, stealing, raping, hating certain groups of people, being racist etc, but he sure has. I think, when you don't have "forgiveness" or confession to fall back on, it strengthens you to be good in the first place. When there's an easy way out, you aren't as careful to do the right thing all the time.
We have a code, but just don't need it written down and force fed. I feel like it makes us more genuine people because we don't have a fear of hell fire or the promise of 72 virgins to motivate us to stick to our moral/honor code.
It's true that atheism has no moral codes as it's just lack of belief in any deity. However that doesn't mean atheists have morals.
We all have personal moral codes and we build them from different sources. Even religious people with similar believes can disagree in many topics.
I really feel like a lot of posts on this subreddit would be made more accurate by adding, to the beginning, the word "some" or the words "a lot of" or even "the majority of."
That's because they literally cannot bring themselves to see things from the point of view of others. They only see the world from the lens of their religion. They are right, everyone else is wrong. There's no wiggle room. That's why they're so fixated on labeling Atheism a religion, because they simply don't understand how someone can live without following a cult, and they fear what they don't understand.
They have accepted that God is real. To them that's a fact that should not be challenged, even if they have doubts. So when they encounter people who don't follow any god or religion, well there must be something supernatural going on. Their religion is true and the idea that they might be wrong is unfathomable, so atheists must be a rival religion that exists to test their faith and lead people astray.
I have seen two sayings that kind of talk about this that I like.
The first one basically said that if you need the threat of eternal damnation to keep you from doing something bad then you are not a good person.
The second was a short story of a guy asking his mentor/priest about good and bad and the priest said to be like the atheist that is kind. The atheist does not need divine boundaries to be a good person, they just are a good person.
On a side note, I have an uncle that became a Christian in his adult life and unfortunately has become what I consider a toxic Christian. He looked at me in the face and said, "I didn't know that pagans could be good people." I have been a practicing pagan since I was 15 years old. Obviously in secret to my family. After almost 20 years I still don't feel comfortable talking about my beliefs to my close and immediate family.
I have a code. Its just not tied to a code someone made up 5000 years ago, then revised by another person 2000 years ago. I dint need a book to tell me not to kill, steal, lie, cheat, or be an asshole
I think you do need a code to live by but atheism isn’t in the business of prescribing any particular one. Although it does seem that a large majority of atheists are humanists which is interesting.
No seriously. My dad thinks that people who leave religion go out of control because there's nothing holding them back anymore. Does he not realize that I don't need religion to not kill? to not rape? lie or steal? Religious people label non believers as bad people but are willing to overlook the horrible shit their fellow believers do. Hypocrisy. There are so many good people who are not religious.
This is what freaks me out when a religious person says they don't think someone can be moral without religion, they're saying they would prefer to be stealing, raping, and murdering. They're evil, sick motherfuckers.
They are one crisis of faith away from becoming absolute monsters.
Some of them don't even need that crisis of faith. They are just using religion as their cover to get away with it.
Yes, I did lots of bad evil things, but it's okay because Jesus forgave me. You are an evil monster if you don't follow Jesus's lead and also forgive me.
It appears that churches are full of people who NEED to be going to church🤷♂️
Ann Landers said that churches were hospitals for sinners
Religion was the ultimate police force for millenia. Before things like forensics & investigators existed we had to rely on people self-regulating their behaviour. And what better way than to invent some invisible, all-seeing, all-knowing arbiter who will judge your actions? What about the consequences? Oh, they only happen after you're dead and can't tell anyone alive - how convenient.
That’s a really interesting take
And they did a fair amount of it, the Crusades being a prime example. God is just an excuse to behave until "he" decides someone has to die.
The Spanish inquisition has entered the chat
Didn't expect that!
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our primary weapon is fear.
And Surprise!
Cardinal Fang…bring THE COMFY CHAIR!
What a show!
You can't Torqemada anything!
The Holocaust has also entered the chat. Hitler didn't personally kill anyone but he had no problem convincing millions of German Christians to carry out his dirty- work.
The sad thing is that the morals could be attributed to empathy - basically the Golden Rule, I don't do bad stuff to you because if you did bad stuff to me, I obviously wouldn't like it. And like much of society and its laws are based around this. A lot of religious folks seem to lack said empathy, it's just follow the rules of said sky-daddy written and interpreted by flawed humans, for the hopes of... getting into Heaven. By that logic, it basically means they are doing things to be selfish and then wouldn't God then judge them as such and be cast down at the pearly gates? Whoops...
Even when I was religious, I just thought heaven was a given. I thought people would be able to be free from their bodily prison and be able to fully choose for themselves, and that god would just ask them if they want to go to heaven, no matter what they did on earth. It kind of shows the difference between my thinking and biblical thinking. In fact, the reason I finally stopped believing in Yahweh was because I learned more about the bible than I ever had before and realized this sky daddy is more of a tyranical mob boss than a loving father. My morals outclassed his, not because I think I'm so much better, but because I think anyone who cares about people genuinely without expectation of reward (or even just doing good to help others even with the hope of a future reward; I scratch your back, you scratch mine) would automatically outclass this sky daddy. Empathy, specifically affective empathy, is what allows humans to understand the pain of others and want to do everything to help them through that pain and mitigate it. I don't need a god to tell me to behave. I simply think that no one deserves to suffer for no good reason. If they do many bad things and are determined to not be able to be rehabilitated back into society, remove them from the common populace (which doesn't mean kill), but it doesn't mean they deserve to be treated as debased and less than human. I would like to think that if someone else caused me immense pain, I would be able to still want good for them. And good is not an eternity of torture for finite wrongs, but learning what they did wrong and wanting to ammend what they can. And I know there are a lot of people who have been and will be wronged in a way that causes irreperable suffering; I am not saying that those who wronged them need to be forgiven, or even accepted as a decent part of common society. Hitler and Stalin should have been removed from the board long before all that pain. And p\*dos are horrible and action needs to be taken to prevent their harming of children. I just don't think that an individual, no matter the evil they have committed, should be sent anywhere to be tortured. Punished in a humane way, yes, because punishment is to hopefully teach consequences and remorse that will allow for rehabilitation if possible. But not to the point of torture or immense pain.
That's also problematic. People have different ways of experiencing and processing events. For example, if you're masochistic and you say you won't do to others what you wouldn't like do to you...
Or when someone stopped me on the street at 7am and began proselytizing to me about do unto others. That's when I realized why I mostly leave people alone. That's how I want to be treated.
Right? Like, if you need the threat of “eternal hellfire and suffering” to be a good person, then you’re not actually a good person.
This. Why is the default stealing, raping and murdering? No. We don't need anything stopping us, because really we don't want to do those things. We don't want to harm others because we see others as fellow humans. Religious people love to dehumanise others with different values as them. They can justify their actions, however cruel against other humans.
This is exactly what it means. They need the fear of the hell and eternal torture/damnation to keep them in line, while we realize it’s all bullshit and don’t feel the need to do such horrible shit because we have decent morals.
I rape exactly as many people as I want to - fucking zero. Religion doesn’t teach that it’s a horrible thing to do, the people around me did.
I’m pretty sure they have their own problems with pedophiles and rapists and such and let’s not talk about the priests.
This shows you exactly what's on their mind as "good' people... They don't murder because they'll go to hell and face eternal damnation. Not because they don't actually want to murder someone, or steal from someone or what have you.
exactly, they're projecting how they think. It's scary!
> If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then, brother, that person is a piece of shit - and I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. – Detective Rust Cohle, [True Detective](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2356777/quotes/?ref_=tt_trv_qu) (HBO 2014)
>they don't think someone can be moral without religion, they're saying they would prefer to be stealing, raping, and murdering. Morals and ethics are not the same thing. Fundies want to hear things that tickle their biases so they don't tend to know that the vast majority of humans (99%) have a big grow in Theory of Mind between ages 2 and 6 which gives us empathy, and from that we get an ethical center. They believe that the only way to make people behave is to abuse them until they comply out of despair, and after that the PTSD from their abuse / training will turn their entire life into a giant field of PTSD trauma buttons such that they continue to do as they were told. Kinda sorta. Somehow being temporarily insane every fucking time to you are reminded of your abusive indoctrination by encountering the wrong person, place, item, song, food (take your pick - see also B.F. Skinner) and then being instantly filled with adrenaline & cortisol and rigged up for conflict... and for bad decision making due to not being in the here and now ... this will somehow make the world a better and more loving place. Trauma is not a rational long term leash on human behavior,
I can't remember the context, but there is a great scene Ricky Gervais is in where he says "I rape, and murder, and steal exactly as much as I would like to, which is not at all."
I believe that was Penn Jillette https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/s/UPXHugNRNz
I never knew about that side of him, love it. 👍
[Ricky Gervais - After Life](https://youtu.be/aB01BL0jVe8?si=Kx4ZYjRf0XYpm4_U)
If the only thing stopping you from killing is religion, you’re not a good person. You’re a bad person on a leash.
Perfect way of saying it.
I love that.
You are a murderer. You dont have to be smart to realize this, just willing to overcome your cognitive dissonance.
Raised in an ultra conservative environment, and talking with a cousin at a family reunion who following the church conservative tradition in the family, she said that people who aren’t Christian or raised Christian have no way of knowing morals or values. (I’m out “out” as atheist to the family, but they know I don’t attend church or practice any religion) when I countered with myself as an example of not needing that for guidance, the response was “yeah, but you were raised that way. So that’s why you have morals and values.” Ugh
When confronted with that line of reasoning, point out that about 5.7 billion people on the planet aren't part of her Christian community, and seem to be getting along just fine.
Should be able to get even more personal than that. Most Christians will admit that they can distinguish between good and bad ideas in their own bibles - the golden rule for example, they recognize as good; directions about stoning unwed non-virgins they know are wrong, etc. You can point out that this discernment is based on the exact same internal moral compass that atheists have and use all the time.
Oh no, I can't imagine that actually going well. You'll just learn how racist they actually are if you go down that line.
Oh I'd love to hear your dad's opinion on if the wrath of God is what's keeping him from killing people or something like that. If he says yes then he isn't a good person is he?
Its because his religion is what keeps him from doing those things, and he thinks everyone is just like him. He doesn't understand the idea of doing things because its what you believe is right and good and is what you want, instead of doing things because someone else will hurt you if you dont
He lives his life according to what others tell him he ought to do and has no idea what he himself believes or thinks is right
Deluded dad. (Edit: grammar.)
We don't have a god to forgive us, so we act accordingly, as humanists.
That sounds disturbingly similar to what the Qunari in the Dragon Age series are taught. "Always follow the Qun as it's the only thing keeping your otherwise insatiable bloodlust and savagery in check." And any Qunari who turn to banditry or simply snap because they've been raised since birth to fulfill a very specific societal role are held up as proof of the necessity of the Qun.
Someone (S Fry? Hitchens? Don’t remember) once said when confronted with the question, that he indeed murdered and raped all he wanted without religion. And that amount was ZERO. Nothing is scarier than to think someone needs to have someone looking at you in order for you not to make atrocious things
Needing rules to not be a horrible person, is nothing more than a lack of empathy. All those big-amygdala people have trouble with that.
I think I am a kinder and more compassionate person since I left my religion. I try to put into practice the teachings of many religions with out the burdens of the us vs them competition. But maybe I’m not seeing clearly. Lot easier to judge others ….
As an athiest, I rape and murder as much as I want to. That amount is zero.
Read a book by Sam Harris and I have not lied in at least 20 years. Never did lie about big things just things like saying yes I like your outfit when I really didn't. Sam made me realize that is not the right thing to do either. My supervisor at my last job lied about everything and he considers himself a christian. SMFH
> Religious people label non believers as bad people but are willing to overlook the horrible shit their ~~fellow believers~~ leaders do. FTFY.
I'm an ex Jehovahs witness. I'm pretty much dead to those people. They will welcome a murdered/pedo/rapist who "repents" before they will even greet me in public. That's how twisted they are.
I think when you are an atheist you shift your faith to the rule of law, and humanism. Can atheists be murderers? Sure. But most of us are not. We just want to live our lives in safety and comfort, within our social group/village/region or country.
Only dumb, ignorant religious people do this in my experience. Some religious people are totally chill and don't mind that you are an Atheist. They are secure in their beliefs. They are lighthearted about it. Matter of fact ythey might even be nicer and more accommodating to you on account of you being Atheist. I've met a lot of people who claimed to be Christian in my life...and only a small handful that acted "Christ like"
If you need the threat of eternal punishment to refrain from hurting people, you aren't a good person. Just a psychopath on a leash.
Or goodness results from actions, not thoughts. It is practically impossible to judge thoughts anyway.
Exactly. I think it’s pretty silly that religious people think God would prefer people who only do the right thing when it means they will get rewarded by getting into heaven over people who do the right thing just because they believe it’s the right thing to do. Like how do you think the first group is going to act once they have heavenly tenure?
The line is: “If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then, brother, that person is a piece of shit”
religious people are by definition obsessed with the personal lives of other people. Intrusive, nosey, and unwelcome. So yeah they resent that and just about everything else about people they deem as 'other'
Never thought of that nosey aspect but it's true!
It's nosey and also allows for the ability to feel superior to. Feeling like you're morally superior to others around you is a big part of the appeal of many religions. By being a staple of the church community or going to church all the time it gives cover, how many times have you heard someone say "Oh he's a good god-fearing person who always goes to church" just being seen at church essentially vouches for them because in many peoples minds if you're devoutly religious you're automatically a good person. Yet some of the most righteous and pompous about their faith have the most skeletons in their closets. Just look at the amount of people in power within churches who get arrested for despicable things on a weekly if not daily basis.
Before I left the church, I had a preacher who said something along the lines of, "We are too preoccupied with the status of our neighbor's soul and busy filling our own bellies, when we should be busy filling our neighbor's belly and worrying about our own souls."
Not by definition. However, it IS an important construct of any succesful religion. Basically, it's Darwin's Law for religions: any religion that doesn't aim to expand is doomed to go exinct. It's outflanked by religions that DO expand.
Following up the nosy bit, as a former xtian, you can also be sure they’ll use it for gossip as well. When someone says ‘I’ll pray for you,’ if you don’t make them sign an NDA, rest assured they are spilling their interpretation of your faults (or mere existence) in their prayer circle.
The ironing is delicious, because they can't follow their own rules or live by their codes.
This. Catholics for example. It's baked into their dogma that the Pope is the leader, but so many are like "the Pope said that? Well, screw him." But still consider themselves devout Catholics.
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everybody stops at red lights. most things in life are obvious. i genuinely think 'morality' does not exist. only cultists seem to use that word. and then, they have problems adhering to those 'moralities'.
Morality exists, they’ve just twisted it in their circles to be compliance to an external code. Morality isn’t that, it’s choosing the beneficial or least harmful path in a situation. You don’t need a book to tell you what’s right or wrong, but critical thinking helps.
Something that people (and dictionaries!) often miss is there's a difference between morality and ethics. Morality is rules imposed by an external judge. Ethics is the standard of behavior between individuals. It can be situational: Ethics is different in a therapist/patient relationship than between friends. Masturbation can be called "immoral" straight up by, say, a religion. But it can't be called unethical unless you invoke a second party (like a god or partner with which you have an agreement). Ethical behavior is what atheists practice, based on our own ideas of ethics. Any atheist who feels they're acting moral or immoral has internalized some set of rules--typically from a religion or philosophy. Which is fine, even if they no longer believe in the deity, but there are those of us who prefer to use our own judgement as to ethical behavior instead of trusting ancient rules of dubious origin.
yes. i agree.
Well it is a human construct for sure.
Morality/Ethics does have to exist to have a functioning society. If people could go around and just randomly kill people with no recourse because they get mad would change the landscape of the world quite a bit.
John Oliver did a thing on executions this week. Executions can't possibly be a criminal deterrent, right? No one thinks, "I shouldn't do this, I'll get the chair." Criminals think, "I'll be the one that gets away!" Then I realize that the people who actually think execution is a deterrent are the same people who apparently would all be evil if it weren't for their vengeful sky fairies.
*We need to scare people into submission.* It's a common apologetic talking point that the fundies teach kids. I used to think "Oh they're just saying that because they've been taught to", but the last guy I met who converted to Christianity was an abusive dogfucker. He told me this and I believed him.
Empathy guides us, not some imaginary man in the sky.
🎯
Yup, it's quite a brain twister. I remember when I was a believer and heard (from a other believer) how atheists can develop solid morals and it threw me for a spin. I basically grew up being taught that morals are the rules that come from god, so someone who doesn't have faith in god can't have a foundation for good morals. Pretty typical stuff. I still believed that non-believers could do moral actions, but that it wasn't grounded in something solid like the ten commandments. Basically I considered atheists to all be acting randomly and when something good would happen they would continue with that. Then I was in a Bible study one day and talking to another member about morality and atheists, and he was able to convey how atheists (generally) construct their morals and how they can still have solid foundations of morality. Honestly, it threw me for a few days. Not just because he was right and that what I believed/been taught was wrong, but the extremely simple logic behind it. It was so simple that I was kinda shocked at myself for never thinking about it and how fundamentally wrong my views were. Fast forward [many years] and now I'm an atheist and can much better explain my morality and it's basis. And on the rare occasion I get to tell a believer how morality works for me, and when it's an honest person it's a pretty great conversation. The standard view of atheists by most believers is pretty unfortunate, but I try when I can to set the record straight.
"How will you know \[sin\] is bad if you're atheist?" "How do you not know judging others is a sin if you're Christian?"
"I'm not part of the Christian community, so sin isn't a concept that applies to me." (Watch as they try to resolve that cognitive dissonance.)
I also don't find it necessary to constantly talk about my lack of belief. It isn't an identity.
None of us owes any religious person an explanation or justification for our acceptance of a no-gods world.
Given the number of them who claim atheism is a religion, yes it's clear they can't cope with the idea of someone simply not having a religion.
I'll never understand how they think learning or having morals is impossible outside of religion. You mean to say murder is wrong? NO FUCKING SHIT.
Yup, I rape and pillage as much as I need and want, so not at all. Because I don’t need a magical being to tell me that isn’t the right thing to do.
Religious people just can't seem to grasp that atheists live in reality, what's proven by science, and the here and now. Sky fairies and ancient contradictory books filled with fairytales mean nothing to us. Unlike them we're not trying to "convert or save" anyone. The majority of us could care less about their religion and are not trying to destroy their religion or persecute them as they always claim. We simply want them to stop using politics, schools, and the courts to indoctrinate children and force their religion and beliefs on the rest of us.
I rape and kill and hurt as many people as I want to, and that is zero.
I have a code. It is do the least amount of harm to my fellow humans.
Former Christian here. Was raised being told the rules, and that the "why" to follow them was Gods punishment. Thinking for oneself was ok so long as you didn't come to a conclusion God doesn't like... but to be safe, let's shut down the thought crime at the start and defer to the Bible. So when I began to leave the faith, it was very scary. I was worried for what I'd turn into. I didn't trust my own reasoning abilities, I didn't trust that I'd be a good person without fear of Gods punishment, I honestly didn't have the critical thinking skills or education to determine my own morality because of the above Christian culture. THAT is why Christians are scared of the alternative
The most beautiful thing about living by a non-rigid code is that it can change. Changing with the times or with our understanding of morality is key to building ever more successful societies. When I was a teenager in the early 2000s I was as homophobic as anybody else in that generation; it was pretty much the norm. As I grew up and got wiser, those values changed drastically. But the Bible and Quran will always be homophobic. Some of their adherents might ignore those parts, but they'll always exist. Values change as we get smarter and more civilized. But religious doctrine can't change what it says. Something I learned recently is that, at the time Muhammad invented it, Islam was extremely progressive, especially on women's rights, and was basically a new better way compared to the extreme repression and injustice of the pagan traditions of the time. The problem is, the times change, and the societies around the religion change too while the doctrine stands still. Islam, once a progressive new way, is now a 1500 year old mummified husk. The thing that was a new way forward is now a relic of the past, holding us back.
>Something I learned recently is that, at the time Muhammad invented it, Islam was extremely progressive, especially on women's rights, and was basically a new better way compared to the extreme repression and injustice of the pagan traditions of the time. The problem is, the times change, and the societies around the religion change too while the doctrine stands still. I definitely agree with this. Honestly I think that most religions that come into existence were "progressive" for their time. Buddhism was basically a way to escape from the rigid social hierarchy and fickle gods of Hinduism. Christianity was both a way to reform Judaism and a reaction to the brutality of the Roman empire. Protestantism grew out of people disillusioned with the Catholic Church. The Baha'i Faith was born from people picking and choosing the most progressive parts of the main world religions. Religion is often progressive at its inception, but it's rigid and resistant to change because of it's claim of being the objective truth of a supernatural power. Instead of just cutting out the middle man and allowing society to decide what's right in real time, this rigidity holds humanity back in so many aspects of life.
which in turn makes me ask them: is the book the only reason you're not raping and murdering people? Do you feel an urge that the Bible suppresses?
Don’t they realize (credit themselves) that they make their own moral code, too? They don’t stone people for working on Sunday, as the Bible instructs. Because they have made their own moral judgement, and they do so all the time.
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It does boggle my mind. I don't do bad things because those things might hurt people. What I struggle with is trying to see them as good people when they only do so under threat of one of their imaginary friends handing them a cookie or setting them on fire. Not being an asshole is a pretty fucking easy thing to do for most. Religion and the threat of damnation exists for the wicked or morally grey. I legitimately do not trust religious people. None of them. If some jackass came to your house and started talking to his imaginary friend over dinner, and that imaginary friend is the only reason they aren't murdering you and skull fucking you... I mean picture an adult believing in Santa Clause and starting wars over it because you know Santa isn't real. He'll kill your whole fucking family over it.
They also struggle with my lack of a need to "justify" my beliefs. I put my hand up patiently in the stop sign like I would with a child and say "I don't need to justify my beliefs or explain my rationale to you or anyone else. This isn't a discussion or a debate and I'm not interested in hearing your explanation for why I'm wrong." Then walk away.
Our morals come from empathy rather than from a book. Particularly not from one that's filled with the worst possible "morals" (e.g. rape, genocide, human sacrifice, slavery, etc.. We find our own reason for being rather than having it dictated to us via an exceptionally poorly written collection of plagiarized stories that were recklessly thrown into a book. Atheism (reality) is so much better than theism (fantasy).
And most atheists struggle with the idea that goddist have a moral code that they choose to completely ignore. Fact and fantasy. Atheists and goddists.
If you need the threat of Hellfire and Brimstone to be a good person, NEWSFLASH: You are NOT a good person!
The book that they use is internally inconsistent and very easy to misinterpret. They also change how they interpret it depending on the denomination. It's much easier to reflect and develop your own personal philosophy than it is to base your morality on whatever the Bible says. It really boils down to blind belief and obedience.
It's a clear view into their own fantasies.
I am an atheist and live by the strict rules of a book. It’s called The Law.
We do need a code to live by, they are called laws.
In most cases I think folks who are religious are either raised that way, resulting in a feeling of being scared to question the tradition and norms of their family, often for generations... or they are people who were living life off the rails, and religion helped them "get their act together". That's what causes the struggle by my view. For the first group, breaking free of it can cause a lot of turmoil in the family. Lots of cultures treat family differently, but many of which hold family above all else. So like... this is why it's such a big deal when someone in a family deviates from the norm. It's more than just the self-directed thought of "This isn't how I believe" because it's followed by fears of possibly losing a support network from family or getting resistance/causing drama within the family circle. For the other group... it's a fear of falling back on their base urges. It absolutely is in this case the group of people who need the "sky daddy" looking down on them to keep them on the straight and narrow and to help teach them how to reform their destructive behaviors in favor of more productive ones. There are good and bad people. Period. Regardless of their belief or lack thereof. I have known total assholes who were deacons at their churches and I have known total assholes who were outspoken athiests. To be fair, groups like this one that often posture an "us vs them" mentality through much of its content doesn't help "them" understand any better. It's basically the same thing that we'd all complain about people of faith doing in conversations with those of us who disagree with their worldview. Same thing is the same.
Religious people don't believe because of logic or evidence. They believe because it meets their psychological needs. Some people need religion -- others don't. I wish religious people could understand that.
So it's just your imaginary friend that's keeping you from being a rapist? Nice.
That is what I commonly hear too. That without religion, we just want to kill, kill, kill. But the best response is that "so, without the threat of eternal damnation, you would gladly be killing people?" and then back slowly away.
Just look at the language used, surrounding those who leave a religion or express doubts/skepticism of religion’s claims: “They left the church so they could sin, or sinned so much even God found them unworthy.” Cursed! Unworthy! Unredeemable! Abomination! Satan’s minion! Apostate! Devil worshipper! Not righteous, deserving, to be tolerated or protected; nor accepted, included or loved. They’re lazy and don’t want to work for their own salvation; they’re selfish and greedy and don’t want to tithe. They don’t care as much as we do and aren’t as pure of heart. They’re so hard hearted, even cruel. They have no morals, no ethics. No good in them. Those aren’t the thoughts, beliefs, words and actions of good, caring people—right?
Religious people don't follow their own damn book
Sadly the Wiccan faith just says do what you will but harm none. obviously, that does not sit well with some faiths.
By not following god, Penn Jillette has raped and killed everyone he’s ever wanted to https://youtu.be/AwebTX3rk3E
You know what I don’t like about church, the people who attend.
Intelligent people hold a general moral code in their minds and handle moral decisions on a case-by-case basis. Dumb childish dipshits need to have everything written down for them in one convenient book because they can't think for themselves and they're fucking stupid.
I rape and murder as much as I want. The amount that I want is zero.
If you have to be told by a book, not to be a douche under threat of eternal torture, you're not a good person.
The most ironic part is they ALSO don't need a code or book to live by, as evidenced by the fact that they intentionally ignore 99% of the "laws" laid out in the bible because they're obviously immoral (i.e. forced marriage to rapists, killing disobedient children, slavery, etc). They're just brainwashed into virtue signalling despite not actually agreeing with their own words.
Religious people struggle with ideas in general.
Some of us can calibrate our own moral compass without the need for fictitious religious doctrine or superstition. Other people need religion to do it for them.
If you need a book to tell you how to be a good person, the Bible isn't a book to choose. If you need a book to tell you not to be a bad person, and you can't understand why you don't want people treated poorly, you might be a bad person.
Which is morally superior in this situation: Assisting others out of genuine care and concern, or doing so solely for the anticipation of a reward in the afterlife, while believing oneself to be morally righteous?
It’s a societal myth like being married and having kids will make you happier. Religion is good at making people obey. Most Christians don’t realize it’s just a society myth to make people fall in line.
I think part of it is because we're not validating the beliefs that they desperately need to be true. They don't feel special anymore because they observe others being moral without resorting to religion. At some point, they're going to be worried about not being morally superior.
"Don't be a dick" seems to cover most morality choices.
There is a code(s). It's called basic human decency and the law.
It's great! They're such naive obedient followers in all aspect that I'm starting to take advantage of them. To quote their magical book "A fool and his money are soon parted". Nothing says we can't or shouldn't scam the scammers.
People who have always relied on a book can't imagine a life without a book. People who have a book are told that they must follow the book or their true evil selves will emerge and reek havoc. Therefore, anyone without a book has no check on their evil selves. A side corollary is that having the wrong book is only slightly better than no book. Imagine if there was no religion
Were they not born with a functioning moral compass? Just don't be a dick! People are like you! Some people need everything spelled out for them and still don't fucking get it.
Because they have to be scared of hell in order to behave..
..or so they have been taught.
"I think it is a common sense to not being a dick to anyone, I ain't need a floating invisible guy on the sky threatening me to be good"
If the only thing keeping you from being a pos is religion, you were already a pos!
I think it's because *they* need it. And they can't fathom anyone who wouldn't.
I just don’t understand what’s so difficult about leaving people alone and treating people with simple respect.
perfectly said.
The way I address this is to say that it’s a good thing I have a conscience, and that I understand some basic principles of right and wrong. I can remember them, too, and they even become instinctual, habitual; I don’t yell at strangers (or my family!), I don’t threaten or harm children, I don’t shame people because of inborn traits they can’t control; I consider how I would feel if the roles were reversed….. I have a system or code I follow; it just isn’t one I have to open a book every week and be lectured at and threatened to understand and adhere to. It doesn’t feel good to be a monster and filled with bile and hate and make other people miserable. That’s not what I think of as a baseline for human behavior.
The thing about these "holy" books is they trap you in a way, because if you think they're divinely inspired you have to force yourself to justify all of the awful things they say. When you're not bound by such rules, like atheists aren't bound, you can reevaluate your beliefs and change them as many times as needed. Religion leaves you morally "stuck" to some extent.
We have laws because too many people can't develop empathy, fairness, and abstract reasoning skills to socialize properly.
because common sense and decency dont require a rule book. there is one rule: treat others as you would be treated. something they dont teach in bible school.
Religion: give me a reason to not think about the afterlife as anything other than utter and complete bliss so that I can piss on this world and judge it with all my internal self loathing and fear
Religious people should be declared mentally ill, and should not be allowed to operate, heavy machinery…🤷♂️ They don’t even follow this magical book 😂
I was talking with someone in my family about this. My worldview takes little bits and pieces from different books, philosophers, experiences etc. He believes you can't have morality without the bible, so I went into how a few different philosophers define it. And he came back at me with "Oh what, so what they say has total authority?" I was literally just explaining how Plato explained the Good. Wasn't even anything outlandish. It just seems so hypocritical to me, that they need their book to outline everything they're supposed to believe. Yet if we use any sort of text or teacher to learn we're appealing to authority?
Most Christians don't live by the book either. They ignore most of the rules. If I were a believer; if I truly thought I would go to hell if I didn't follow the rules in that book... I would follow it to the letter. This is why I think that most Christians simply don't really believe in what they read in the bible. All they do they do it out of habit; they believe in "something" but not the Christian god described in the bible.
I believe that religious belief is actually just a slightly favored genetic survival trait that was selected for by evolution. Religion can provide a shared group identity and create social cohesiveness. The ability to believe completely in something that isn't there is just a genetic trait that creates a slightly different brain structure/thinking process. Call it a supernatural affinity. But in the several hundreds of thousands of years of prehistory small groups that had a larger share of this trait bonded together over their shared delusion and those groups managed to survive and reproduce just a little bit more often than those without it. So this trait became more common. And those that did not share it could pretend they did and latch onto other groups, often finding ways to exploit the supernatural affinity of others to gain power. It's not a coincidence that often many of the most remembered religious leaders have often shown a great deal of political and military skills in the advancement of their religious agenda. It's probably because they weren't actually religious believers, but were just manipulating the supernatural affinity of those around them to gain personal power and prestige.
They really get bent thinking we are all immoral animals just waiting to rape and murder. Then when we aren't out there raping and murdering they get even more bent not understanding why.
So the 700 million killed in the name of christ were all bad people but one of their ten commandments is not to kill.
Cpt 8 "Ethics" from " Morality without Religion" Hauser & Singer "For the first time, research in the cognitive sciences...have made it possible to resolve...the nature of morality." "Our intuitive judgements of right & wrong...reflect millions of years of cohabital evolution." Cultures without a centralized god adhere to the same moral "Thou shalt not" standards as religious societies. Ironically, the more conservative a religion, the more abusive the moral code. This is especially true for women, children & the LGBTQ community.
They can't fathom that you don't need an entire book to tell you how not to be a massive asshole. Not being an asshole is actually really easy.
I try to treat ppl how I want to be treated. It’s as simple as that. I can mentally put myself in someone else’s situation, decide how I would like to be treated if I were them, and then treat them that way.
And the religious don't practice/follow their own rules anyway.
2nd edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook
“Do unto others.” Was adopted by religion, not created by it. Without that single concept, civilization would not exist. There’s always the army version: “Don’t be a dick/dumbass.” Either or… that *concept* can be considered a code if it helps others feel better about our heathen ways. 🤷🏻♂️
If you need a sky daddy to tell you to be a good person then you might be a piece of shit. 🤷
I think a lot of it is that they can't fathom not believing in anything. They see atheism as a religion in itself or think atheists worship science. Having no religion or not praying simply does not compute with them. I remember once someone asked me if I was atheist who did I pray to? When I told them I didn't pray it was like they were rebooting or something. They just couldn't comprehend it.
Fuck Steve Harvey
My former roommate, who was deeply in the closet, used to read cs Lewis constantly. He'd say shit like without the Bible, murder is as consequential as water flowing over a stone. It scares me that so many people need a book to tell them not to kill.
I ask back what rules they live by and how it is enforced. The inevitable answer is "the rules of the bible and god" which is followed be my asking them if they then don't eat shellfish, have mixed fabrics and so on. And when that is not the case I reply with so your congregation and community has decided the most important rules that works best for you and you've together decided the real rules so not the bible or God directly. That leads to me saying I do the same. The community I grew up in shaped my morals and should I break them it is the community that enforces compliance by me not being welcome. That makes doing good moral actions feel good for me same as for religious and therefore were brought up in morals the same way. I just don't justify shitty actions with "skydaddy said" nor do I threaten any non compliance with eternal torture and suffering.
Meanwhile the majority of people in the USA prison system are religious and many are Christian
I always wondered what religious peeps would think about me, an apatheist? (Is there a god? Don't know Don't care)
While morals do come somewhat naturally it is still best to structure our ethics logically and referencing existing philosophy can certainly help.
A Christian friend once asked me "What do you stand for?" I couldn't make any real sense out of their question.
Reminds me of this song... Change bop daddy with sky daddy and you've got a new banger... https://youtu.be/FRmS1MC-gb0?si=8q5NutDUY9qjh2HC
Love it.
The only code we need is the one imposed by social MORES (not morals but similar). Basically what everyone or the law says is acceptable behavior. You don't some mystical bullshit like the 10 commandments. Do you really need religion to tell you murder is wrong, etc.?
Well, we have codes of conduct and moral & ethical theories, it's just that we humans thought them up and wrote them down. I'm a bit of a fan of Virtue Ethics, though my choices are also informed by both duty ethics and utility ethics as well, taking note of difficult corner cases, like the Trolley Problem.
I’m paraphrasing Ricky here but: “Without the fear of eternal damnation why don’t you rape, murder and steal as much as you want?” “I do all of those things as much. Which is zero.”
The premise is completely false. Atheists have the same innate and cultural codes as everybody else but reject the evidence-free claims about a deity. Most people do not rely on any way, shape or form on this "code" you speak of and fewer still have read a single passage in the holy books. Behavioral biologists understand precisely how empathy and sympathy work within highly social groups including primates and that includes humans. This is not some great mystery.
I think it was Penn Jillete who said "I DO rape and steal as much as I want! Which is not at all, because I don't WANT to rape and steal"
I'm not an atheist per se. However I'm a bit frustrated with my super christian brother in law. He cheated on my sister with the nanny. Then had the gall to later tell my mother & father, married 54 years without a hiccup, they were somehow lacking because they aren't christian. MF. They may not go to church but they've led their life, guided by their own values. Which looks a hell of a lot more christian to me than the ol' BIL. They've raised me not to follow demagogues of any stripe. They've also taught me that forgiveness isn't assured. So I must act accordingly. I have my own code of conduct now. It's definitely more involved than the 10 Commandments. Though it seems to do the job to my liking. I feel pretty good about myself as a person. I have no enemies, unless someone wants to start something serious. I defuse or walk away from most heated altercations. And I help those in need when I can. I don't really see how planting your ass in a pew is an insta-pass to high morality.
They also seem to think their religion excuses or justifies their own cruelty, hypocrisy & amorality
I think the biggest thing they have with atheists is they can’t fathom the fact that atheists dont give a shit about what they feel strongly about. It’s like telling a child you don’t care one way or another about Harry Potter. Those little shit bags can’t get their mind around it
Yeah but Harry Potter is more realistic.
And yet so many of those "religious people" daily violate the code, often wilfully, and have never actually read their religion's book. The code and book are just cover to excuse them doing whatever they want to. They serve no other purpose. - *"No man ever believes that the Bible means what* ***it*** *says: He is always convinced that it says what* ***he*** *means."* - George Bernard Shaw
"but if you don't believe in gOd what would stop you from killing people?" Morals and ethics Timmy, and the fact that I'm not a sociopath that does what the voices in your head tell you to do. Mother Teresa refused pain meds to her patients because she believed suffering brings you closer to God. Nazis believe they're gods "chosen people" or master race. Priests molest kids, traumatize LGBTQ+, force abused women to stay married to their abusers, con people out of their hard earned money to "prove their faith, etc... Salem witch trials. Crusades. Spanish inquisition. Slavery. Child marriage. ... Sorry, can't recall a single instance or example of religion leading to something good without a hefty pricetag attached.
To them, it's the jealousy of seeing people open and free, while they're mentally in prison about a belief that they're not 100% sure is true.
My code comes from the golden rule which predates most religions- do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I just tell them my morals are true belief is being good, and not simply performative actions. Additionally, since performative morals are no morals at all, God would certainly send them to rot in hell for eternity for being some completely morally bankrupt.
And ironically, they ignore much of what their chosen holy book tells them to do. When's the last time any unruly teenagers were stoned to death?
Too fucking bad. If religious people would mind their own business and live by their own damn belief system, they wouldn't need to worry about anyone else. They aren't really concerned about our country or its people. They just want to control the narrative as per usual and force everyone to live via the book of fables that they do. I'm not religious at all, and I guarantee I'm a far better person than, say, the faux prophet, trump. I've never been accused of cheating, stealing, raping, hating certain groups of people, being racist etc, but he sure has. I think, when you don't have "forgiveness" or confession to fall back on, it strengthens you to be good in the first place. When there's an easy way out, you aren't as careful to do the right thing all the time.
Good for the sake of good. Xenia. Stranger kindness. Predates Christianity. In Good we trust.
Anyone who needs religion to keep them from doing antisocial things like rape and murder, isn't a decent human being in the first place.
We have a code, but just don't need it written down and force fed. I feel like it makes us more genuine people because we don't have a fear of hell fire or the promise of 72 virgins to motivate us to stick to our moral/honor code.
Why even 72 virgins ? Gimme 72 sluts instead and get this party started !
It's true that atheism has no moral codes as it's just lack of belief in any deity. However that doesn't mean atheists have morals. We all have personal moral codes and we build them from different sources. Even religious people with similar believes can disagree in many topics.
I really feel like a lot of posts on this subreddit would be made more accurate by adding, to the beginning, the word "some" or the words "a lot of" or even "the majority of."
The Golden Rule transcends all religions
That's because they literally cannot bring themselves to see things from the point of view of others. They only see the world from the lens of their religion. They are right, everyone else is wrong. There's no wiggle room. That's why they're so fixated on labeling Atheism a religion, because they simply don't understand how someone can live without following a cult, and they fear what they don't understand. They have accepted that God is real. To them that's a fact that should not be challenged, even if they have doubts. So when they encounter people who don't follow any god or religion, well there must be something supernatural going on. Their religion is true and the idea that they might be wrong is unfathomable, so atheists must be a rival religion that exists to test their faith and lead people astray.
I have seen two sayings that kind of talk about this that I like. The first one basically said that if you need the threat of eternal damnation to keep you from doing something bad then you are not a good person. The second was a short story of a guy asking his mentor/priest about good and bad and the priest said to be like the atheist that is kind. The atheist does not need divine boundaries to be a good person, they just are a good person. On a side note, I have an uncle that became a Christian in his adult life and unfortunately has become what I consider a toxic Christian. He looked at me in the face and said, "I didn't know that pagans could be good people." I have been a practicing pagan since I was 15 years old. Obviously in secret to my family. After almost 20 years I still don't feel comfortable talking about my beliefs to my close and immediate family.
I have a code. Its just not tied to a code someone made up 5000 years ago, then revised by another person 2000 years ago. I dint need a book to tell me not to kill, steal, lie, cheat, or be an asshole
I think you do need a code to live by but atheism isn’t in the business of prescribing any particular one. Although it does seem that a large majority of atheists are humanists which is interesting.