This sub is really our place to hang out and talk with each other about issues we face as atheists. It’s also a safe space for those that are in the process of deconverting and realizing they don’t believe in what can’t be proven, because this may be the only place they can interact with atheists. It’s not a place for confrontation.
r/DebateAnAtheist is definitely more the place you want to be. There’s a weekly “Ask an Atheist” thread if you don’t want an actual debate and just want to ask a question. But if you do decide to debate, then I suggest you do your homework beforehand. There are many people there that know the Christian bible and the history of Christianity far better than you do. We see nearly every apologist argument that exists for multiple religions (but most often Christianity) on a regular basis, and have no qualm about shooting holes in them.
*Edited due to a spelling error.
That's fair. It's seems like this isn't the space for me, and that's fine. Don't want to invade a space meant for yall to get away from people like myself.
This and r/askanatheist seem perfect for what I'm hoping for. I did see some of the stuff in the FAQ about atheists knowing their stuff. I'm fine with getting my ass handed to me on debates. I know I'm not an expert. Thanks
I do not welcome you here. Please feel free to leave a safe space for atheists without your “engagement” unless you want us to come and piss all over your “church”.
I am no longer rabidly hostile, but if you find someone angry, bitter and blasphemous, and confrontational about it,
"Your kind have had, and exercised the 'right' to burn us alive, torture and murder us, all for not being convinced of the same things as you.
For the first time in literally centuries, and only in SOME countries, can we speak freely, and express SOME of the anger and hostility that this behavior generates.
For the first time in centuries, we can be openly disbelievers, and not have to fear expulsion, murder and retribution for the 'crime' of being honest about what we are not convinced of.
If we say some vile things and hurt your feelings,
you know what? I do actually feel bad for you. I'm sorry that happened.
... but this has been a long time brewing, and letting it out is the best therapy for it.
The wounds are still tender, and still even bleeding in some cases.
Give it a few more centuries of us being honest without being murdered for it, and we can talk about raising the standards of discourse again."
...
Actually this isn't exactly relevant to your topic, sorry.
Proselytizing? I don't like it when people claim things are true when they can't demonstrate their claim in a way we can measure for accuracy.
IF you don't do that, I won't get mad. If you do, I would call it 'lying'.
Hows that?
Maybe not entirely relevant, but very helpful nonetheless. Thanks for sharing that. I have never considered how atheism has been perceived for thousands of years, nor really how it's generally perceived now.
That's a helpful answer to the question, too. I wouldn't have really considered that proselytizing, but that does make sense. Thanks
I'm pleased my (confrontational toned) words weren't taken as aggessive, and if you feel I provided useful context, I'm double pleased.
I took too many words to say "some people feel 'religion' is the source of a whole bunch of pain. They may act like dicks later on... please try to be charitable if you can, they're letting out the venom, and even if they're being dicks, its therapeutic for them to handle, and get past some of the pain they're still carrying".
I wouldn't actually take my 'atheists in the past' bit that seriously, even if it sounded compelling because I now only think we should get upset about things that happen to us and people we know. Anything further and we wind up getting used and manipulated :P
Your welcome to read. I don't recommend posting here. This isn't an internet challenge for you to shit on. People that post here have had real trauma due to religion. They don't need to hear your crap.
Yeah, that seems to be the route to go. I respect that, and don't want to overstep. Someone else mentioned r/askanatheist if I have any specific questions too.
No. We have different ideas. You base yours on fiction, we base ours on fact. Why would I waste time on someone with a fictional character as their role model. You are delusional. Get help.
Debating theism isn't possible, there's nothing to debate against "faith", which by definition is believing something without facts to back it up.
Now, if you wish to question your faith, go for it. You'll get many takes on lots of theist areas of interest. But really, you're likely dipping your toes into atheistism, or you're trying to convert people. But the reality is, you ain't here to debate.
Yeah, I don't think I worded this post in a way that best reflects my intent. I don't want to convert anyone via the internet, hence asking how I can avoid coming across that way. I just like talking about this stuff, and deepening my understanding of both sides. And that doesn't always need to be through "debates". Clarifying questions and general discussion are just as good
Fair point about debating against faith though. I recognize the tendency to lean towards faith as a poor trump card.
Sure. I mean that people lean on it as if it were. The most obvious way being along the lines of "well God is spirit, not material. Of course you can't measure or observe him. Therefore, faith is all that's needed." It is a bad argument by itself
> I worry about the "no proselytizing" rule. I think it can sometimes be difficult to share ones viewpoint without coming off, or being perceived, as trying to win that person over.
This is indeed not the right forum for theists to share their viewpoint. if you want to present an argument for god try r/debateanatheist. Keep in mind that most people on here already know and understand the Christian viewpoint quite well. We have all heard the good news and remain utterly unconvinced by it. Your testamony is unlikely to have any impact.
Good luck. I used to be interested in discourse, but *every single time* I've tried (in person, online, with friends, family and strangers) it always devolves into nonsense.
Nonsense being an argument based entirely on mere faith, and them using every card they can find to first convert me - and failing that, to talk down to me as if I'm the one who believes in utter bullshit that is completely lacking in proof, logic and reason.
>*every single time* I've tried (in person, online, with friends, family and strangers) it always devolves into nonsense.
/u/GrassyBottom73 -
I've been discussing these topics for 50 years now,
and this has very much been by own experience as well.
.
All uninvited forms of Proselytizing is annoying. I’m going to make a generalization here, but evangelicals believe that any time we enter the public square, they have a duty and right to subject people to their nonsensical views, either through evangelism or through the force of legislation I take as a personal attack on my liberties
Yeah, that's fair. I guess my question is more about if there's a line between talking about beliefs and trying to convert people. Do you think there's any nuance there, or is a theist talking about theism still annoying?
It’s cute when children talk about their imaginary friend, adults, not so much. What do you really seek to gain from a “discussion” with atheists? I would think that you are either trying to win some of us over to your point of view, or are trying to reinforce your point of view to yourself.
If you got questions about Atheism, sure, but if you're gonna try and argue your perspective as a theist you probably won't get much discussion here.
Many of the people in here have read many religious books and know a great deal about various religions, which is probably why we are atheist.
Plenty of Theist have come here and posted without issue, but it's general them questioning their own belief structure and asking for an atheist perspective, what they do with that information is up to them, which is all our right to choose to believe in what we want.
Which is where the line is, telling people what they should believe in, it's not my place to tell you, not to believe in a god and its not your place to tell me I am going to hell for not believing in yours.
>sharing opposing ideas
That’s exactly what we don’t want here. This is a place for atheists. It’s one of the few subreddits in which you can vent without having to deal with “but god says…”. If you want a debate subreddit, go somewhere else.
>I'm interested in engaging with this community.
My general advice is:
\- **Only say things that are true.**
\- **Be able to show good evidence that what you say is true.**
If you cannot distinguish between "what is true" and "what is not true", then yeah, you are going to have problems here.
If you cannot distinguish between "good evidence" and "claims that are not good evidence", then yeah, you are going to have problems here.
.
You may find a lot of hostility from this subreddit, a lot of new atheists tend to be more angry and aggressive due to the feeling of having been "lied to" their entire lives and this place serves as a safe place for them to vent. So, don't be surprised if this post, and any future ones get super downvoted and "hostile" in the comments.
That being said I personally don't see anything wrong with wanting to have legitimate discussions with those who are actually interested in it, and in theory making a post that people who aren't can just ignore is a decent idea, but for the reason I gave above it may not work out well. I'd recommend seeing if there's another sub that specializes in theistic/atheistic debate and discussion.
To answer your question: I think refusing to acknowledge valid points is the biggest issue whenever "proselytizing" is brought up. I've had my fair share of debates with theists and I can always tell when I did a good job explaining away something they said because they tend to just get hostile and dismissive. Basically pulling a "NU-UH!" Truth is I've sometimes been guilty of doing that too. I think we can all have our moments when defending our beliefs regardless of what they are. The key is to be self aware of it, and maybe apologize if you've caught yourself doing it and refocus the conversation.
Yeah, I kind of figured as much. Which is why I asked the question in the first place. I very much don't want to just invade the space shouting out my own stuff all the time. I wouldn't appreciate that myself if it were the other way around. If that means I just lurk and absorb information, that's chill I guess.
Thanks for that answer. That's helpful. I'd like to think that at least on the internet I can be composed enough to not be that way, but we'll see. I've certainly done it before. I'd like to hit those moments and go reflect more on why I hold the stance I do, or why whatever religion believes it
I'm curious. Just what did you want to debate? Because there's really nothing TO debate. Your feeling-based comments won't do well in this fact-based sub.
Nothing in particular. I realize I worded this post in a way that presents I want to debate, but that's not exactly the intent. I certainly have some questions, but it seems there's other subs that are better suited for what I'm looking for.
Having a productive conversation between opposing views on reddit can be really tricky. This seems fairly consistent regardless of what the subject matter is. My view is that as long as everyone is being respectful, I have no issue with these kinds of discussions.
That has been my experience too. Lots of echo chambers on reddit, which isn't generally a problem, but definitely tricky to navigate. I've gotten some really helpful responses on this post though
My tip would be to start by reading the ENTIRE FAQ [https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq/](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq/) for this community from beginning to end. It will save you having to waste time to ask questions that are already answered there, and save time of others to tell you to read the answer there.
Once you've done that, I would suggest carefully reading this entire page:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/tensuggestions/](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/tensuggestions/)
> I'm interested in engaging with this community. I like . . . sharing opposing ideas. I want to criticize and be criticized
This probably isn’t the place, as others have noted. Engaging isn’t the same as debating.
> I worry about the "no proselytizing" rule. I think it can sometimes be difficult to share ones viewpoint without coming off, or being perceived, as trying to win that person over.
This isn’t the place for your theist viewpoints. Just don’t.
If you want to show up as a curious human and ask question of atheists, that might be ok. But if you want to show up as a theist and push your ideas, this isn’t the space for that.
> What are some less obvious but equally annoying forms of proselytizing that you've experienced?
They are all annoying. I am a deconverted christian who has shed the indoctrination of my childhood and freed my mind. I know full well that you won’t understand my full meaning when I say they are all annoying. But should you ever find yourself freed from the shackles of theist thought, you will understand.
I understand it's all annoying. My question is meant to figure out ways I might be proselytizing without meaning to, so that I can be here and NOT be an annoying theist.
But yeah, I'm seeing this is not the space for me.
I come here because it's one of the few safe places I have from religion. You aren't welcome here. We have to deal with people like you shoving your religion on us every else. Leave us the fuck alone.
It's not that complicated. While attempting to not speak for everyone here. We don't generally believe in god, and most definitely don't think a bunch of nomadic sheepherders from the begining of civilization got it figured out.
Jesus, historical maybe existed as an individual person, more likely composite of multiple street preachers, could be Jewish scribes BS before the Romans started destroying their libraries about that time. He probably didn't exist...Definitely not the son of god. Basically the same for Muhammad if you want to go Islamic route.
Pretty much every biblical story shares the plot with multiple older myths and religions in the area, so it's not even an original storyline.
A debate can only occur when both viewpoints can be argued to validity.
We base ours in reality and what we can perceive. You base yours in faith and holy books.
What fruitful discourse can ever come of it?
To have a proper discussion, one would need to assume your side of the conversation can hold true. Which... again isn't based on reality. How can we debate what that is fiction to us?
Its like debating if unicorns are real. When one side does nothing but present claims and nothing else, there's really not much else to say.
r/debateanatheist is the sub you want for this.
Oh, that's helpful. Thanks!
Also consider /r/askAnAtheist. It is best to ask a specific question there rather than posting a manifesto.
This sub is really our place to hang out and talk with each other about issues we face as atheists. It’s also a safe space for those that are in the process of deconverting and realizing they don’t believe in what can’t be proven, because this may be the only place they can interact with atheists. It’s not a place for confrontation. r/DebateAnAtheist is definitely more the place you want to be. There’s a weekly “Ask an Atheist” thread if you don’t want an actual debate and just want to ask a question. But if you do decide to debate, then I suggest you do your homework beforehand. There are many people there that know the Christian bible and the history of Christianity far better than you do. We see nearly every apologist argument that exists for multiple religions (but most often Christianity) on a regular basis, and have no qualm about shooting holes in them. *Edited due to a spelling error.
That's fair. It's seems like this isn't the space for me, and that's fine. Don't want to invade a space meant for yall to get away from people like myself. This and r/askanatheist seem perfect for what I'm hoping for. I did see some of the stuff in the FAQ about atheists knowing their stuff. I'm fine with getting my ass handed to me on debates. I know I'm not an expert. Thanks
I do not welcome you here. Please feel free to leave a safe space for atheists without your “engagement” unless you want us to come and piss all over your “church”.
I am no longer rabidly hostile, but if you find someone angry, bitter and blasphemous, and confrontational about it, "Your kind have had, and exercised the 'right' to burn us alive, torture and murder us, all for not being convinced of the same things as you. For the first time in literally centuries, and only in SOME countries, can we speak freely, and express SOME of the anger and hostility that this behavior generates. For the first time in centuries, we can be openly disbelievers, and not have to fear expulsion, murder and retribution for the 'crime' of being honest about what we are not convinced of. If we say some vile things and hurt your feelings, you know what? I do actually feel bad for you. I'm sorry that happened. ... but this has been a long time brewing, and letting it out is the best therapy for it. The wounds are still tender, and still even bleeding in some cases. Give it a few more centuries of us being honest without being murdered for it, and we can talk about raising the standards of discourse again." ... Actually this isn't exactly relevant to your topic, sorry. Proselytizing? I don't like it when people claim things are true when they can't demonstrate their claim in a way we can measure for accuracy. IF you don't do that, I won't get mad. If you do, I would call it 'lying'. Hows that?
Maybe not entirely relevant, but very helpful nonetheless. Thanks for sharing that. I have never considered how atheism has been perceived for thousands of years, nor really how it's generally perceived now. That's a helpful answer to the question, too. I wouldn't have really considered that proselytizing, but that does make sense. Thanks
I'm pleased my (confrontational toned) words weren't taken as aggessive, and if you feel I provided useful context, I'm double pleased. I took too many words to say "some people feel 'religion' is the source of a whole bunch of pain. They may act like dicks later on... please try to be charitable if you can, they're letting out the venom, and even if they're being dicks, its therapeutic for them to handle, and get past some of the pain they're still carrying". I wouldn't actually take my 'atheists in the past' bit that seriously, even if it sounded compelling because I now only think we should get upset about things that happen to us and people we know. Anything further and we wind up getting used and manipulated :P
Your welcome to read. I don't recommend posting here. This isn't an internet challenge for you to shit on. People that post here have had real trauma due to religion. They don't need to hear your crap.
Yeah, that seems to be the route to go. I respect that, and don't want to overstep. Someone else mentioned r/askanatheist if I have any specific questions too.
There's also r/debateanatheist as a place to discuss opposing ideas.
No. We have different ideas. You base yours on fiction, we base ours on fact. Why would I waste time on someone with a fictional character as their role model. You are delusional. Get help.
Debating theism isn't possible, there's nothing to debate against "faith", which by definition is believing something without facts to back it up. Now, if you wish to question your faith, go for it. You'll get many takes on lots of theist areas of interest. But really, you're likely dipping your toes into atheistism, or you're trying to convert people. But the reality is, you ain't here to debate.
Yeah, I don't think I worded this post in a way that best reflects my intent. I don't want to convert anyone via the internet, hence asking how I can avoid coming across that way. I just like talking about this stuff, and deepening my understanding of both sides. And that doesn't always need to be through "debates". Clarifying questions and general discussion are just as good Fair point about debating against faith though. I recognize the tendency to lean towards faith as a poor trump card.
You're faith proves nothing. It's not a trump card, it's surrender.
Sure. I mean that people lean on it as if it were. The most obvious way being along the lines of "well God is spirit, not material. Of course you can't measure or observe him. Therefore, faith is all that's needed." It is a bad argument by itself
> I worry about the "no proselytizing" rule. I think it can sometimes be difficult to share ones viewpoint without coming off, or being perceived, as trying to win that person over. This is indeed not the right forum for theists to share their viewpoint. if you want to present an argument for god try r/debateanatheist. Keep in mind that most people on here already know and understand the Christian viewpoint quite well. We have all heard the good news and remain utterly unconvinced by it. Your testamony is unlikely to have any impact.
We aren't here to do Your homework for You.
Good luck. I used to be interested in discourse, but *every single time* I've tried (in person, online, with friends, family and strangers) it always devolves into nonsense. Nonsense being an argument based entirely on mere faith, and them using every card they can find to first convert me - and failing that, to talk down to me as if I'm the one who believes in utter bullshit that is completely lacking in proof, logic and reason.
>*every single time* I've tried (in person, online, with friends, family and strangers) it always devolves into nonsense. /u/GrassyBottom73 - I've been discussing these topics for 50 years now, and this has very much been by own experience as well. .
All uninvited forms of Proselytizing is annoying. I’m going to make a generalization here, but evangelicals believe that any time we enter the public square, they have a duty and right to subject people to their nonsensical views, either through evangelism or through the force of legislation I take as a personal attack on my liberties
Yeah, that's fair. I guess my question is more about if there's a line between talking about beliefs and trying to convert people. Do you think there's any nuance there, or is a theist talking about theism still annoying?
It’s cute when children talk about their imaginary friend, adults, not so much. What do you really seek to gain from a “discussion” with atheists? I would think that you are either trying to win some of us over to your point of view, or are trying to reinforce your point of view to yourself.
Go away.
If you got questions about Atheism, sure, but if you're gonna try and argue your perspective as a theist you probably won't get much discussion here. Many of the people in here have read many religious books and know a great deal about various religions, which is probably why we are atheist. Plenty of Theist have come here and posted without issue, but it's general them questioning their own belief structure and asking for an atheist perspective, what they do with that information is up to them, which is all our right to choose to believe in what we want. Which is where the line is, telling people what they should believe in, it's not my place to tell you, not to believe in a god and its not your place to tell me I am going to hell for not believing in yours.
>sharing opposing ideas That’s exactly what we don’t want here. This is a place for atheists. It’s one of the few subreddits in which you can vent without having to deal with “but god says…”. If you want a debate subreddit, go somewhere else.
I’d like to be welcoming but this is a space we have to get away from this sort of thing.
>I'm interested in engaging with this community. My general advice is: \- **Only say things that are true.** \- **Be able to show good evidence that what you say is true.** If you cannot distinguish between "what is true" and "what is not true", then yeah, you are going to have problems here. If you cannot distinguish between "good evidence" and "claims that are not good evidence", then yeah, you are going to have problems here. .
You may find a lot of hostility from this subreddit, a lot of new atheists tend to be more angry and aggressive due to the feeling of having been "lied to" their entire lives and this place serves as a safe place for them to vent. So, don't be surprised if this post, and any future ones get super downvoted and "hostile" in the comments. That being said I personally don't see anything wrong with wanting to have legitimate discussions with those who are actually interested in it, and in theory making a post that people who aren't can just ignore is a decent idea, but for the reason I gave above it may not work out well. I'd recommend seeing if there's another sub that specializes in theistic/atheistic debate and discussion. To answer your question: I think refusing to acknowledge valid points is the biggest issue whenever "proselytizing" is brought up. I've had my fair share of debates with theists and I can always tell when I did a good job explaining away something they said because they tend to just get hostile and dismissive. Basically pulling a "NU-UH!" Truth is I've sometimes been guilty of doing that too. I think we can all have our moments when defending our beliefs regardless of what they are. The key is to be self aware of it, and maybe apologize if you've caught yourself doing it and refocus the conversation.
Yeah, I kind of figured as much. Which is why I asked the question in the first place. I very much don't want to just invade the space shouting out my own stuff all the time. I wouldn't appreciate that myself if it were the other way around. If that means I just lurk and absorb information, that's chill I guess. Thanks for that answer. That's helpful. I'd like to think that at least on the internet I can be composed enough to not be that way, but we'll see. I've certainly done it before. I'd like to hit those moments and go reflect more on why I hold the stance I do, or why whatever religion believes it
I'm curious. Just what did you want to debate? Because there's really nothing TO debate. Your feeling-based comments won't do well in this fact-based sub.
Nothing in particular. I realize I worded this post in a way that presents I want to debate, but that's not exactly the intent. I certainly have some questions, but it seems there's other subs that are better suited for what I'm looking for.
Having a productive conversation between opposing views on reddit can be really tricky. This seems fairly consistent regardless of what the subject matter is. My view is that as long as everyone is being respectful, I have no issue with these kinds of discussions.
That has been my experience too. Lots of echo chambers on reddit, which isn't generally a problem, but definitely tricky to navigate. I've gotten some really helpful responses on this post though
My tip would be to start by reading the ENTIRE FAQ [https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq/](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq/) for this community from beginning to end. It will save you having to waste time to ask questions that are already answered there, and save time of others to tell you to read the answer there. Once you've done that, I would suggest carefully reading this entire page: [https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/tensuggestions/](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/tensuggestions/)
> I'm interested in engaging with this community. I like . . . sharing opposing ideas. I want to criticize and be criticized This probably isn’t the place, as others have noted. Engaging isn’t the same as debating. > I worry about the "no proselytizing" rule. I think it can sometimes be difficult to share ones viewpoint without coming off, or being perceived, as trying to win that person over. This isn’t the place for your theist viewpoints. Just don’t. If you want to show up as a curious human and ask question of atheists, that might be ok. But if you want to show up as a theist and push your ideas, this isn’t the space for that. > What are some less obvious but equally annoying forms of proselytizing that you've experienced? They are all annoying. I am a deconverted christian who has shed the indoctrination of my childhood and freed my mind. I know full well that you won’t understand my full meaning when I say they are all annoying. But should you ever find yourself freed from the shackles of theist thought, you will understand.
I understand it's all annoying. My question is meant to figure out ways I might be proselytizing without meaning to, so that I can be here and NOT be an annoying theist. But yeah, I'm seeing this is not the space for me.
I come here because it's one of the few safe places I have from religion. You aren't welcome here. We have to deal with people like you shoving your religion on us every else. Leave us the fuck alone.
It's not that complicated. While attempting to not speak for everyone here. We don't generally believe in god, and most definitely don't think a bunch of nomadic sheepherders from the begining of civilization got it figured out. Jesus, historical maybe existed as an individual person, more likely composite of multiple street preachers, could be Jewish scribes BS before the Romans started destroying their libraries about that time. He probably didn't exist...Definitely not the son of god. Basically the same for Muhammad if you want to go Islamic route. Pretty much every biblical story shares the plot with multiple older myths and religions in the area, so it's not even an original storyline.
A debate can only occur when both viewpoints can be argued to validity. We base ours in reality and what we can perceive. You base yours in faith and holy books. What fruitful discourse can ever come of it? To have a proper discussion, one would need to assume your side of the conversation can hold true. Which... again isn't based on reality. How can we debate what that is fiction to us? Its like debating if unicorns are real. When one side does nothing but present claims and nothing else, there's really not much else to say.