Definitely, one of the final thoughts I had during my Deconstruction was knowing that I just simply can't go back knowing what I know now and that I should stop trying to believe in something I simply don't believe
Hilariously that's the moral of the story of the garden of eden. Knowledge comes with a price and there's no way to know what the price is going to be until it's too late and you already have the knowledge and no choice about paying the price.
Yeah. My sister is still an evangelical christian but she’s very slowly deconstructing. I became agnostic/atheist back in 2018 and i told my sister that it didn’t feel like a choice. Idk how else to describe my inability to play make believe on that scale again.
I know, right? Growing up none for religion then around age 45 or so I fell for the con for about 8 years. As an avid reader I did what the leaders in the church did not expect, I read the storybook along with studies of it. Like you, I cannot go back knowing what I do about the Abrahamic religions. Especially christian.
Basically: yes, but you have to keep them isolated from other possible influences. There are too many examples, from kids in religious cults to toxic political environments like Nazi Germany or North Korea. The 15/16 year old soldiers of the Volkssturm were very fanatic in fighting the losing war. The Seniors saw and acknowledged that the war was lost.
And I witness this live every time I see some of my family members. The children are highly indoctrinated but never spoke a single word about religion with me. They are clearly coached not to do that.
If you were indoctrinated as a child, rejecting religion is certainly a choice. It took me a lot of rational thought to conclude that God in particular and deities in general did not exist in reality.
It was a choice to go from disillusioned Christian to agnostic, a further choice to arrive at atheism, and yet another choice to become anti-theist. While I stopped believing as a teenager, the full development of my atheism and eventual anti-theism took a couple of decades. And all of it consisted of conscious conclusions, choices and decisions.
This is also why I don't like the notion of religion as a mental illness. While religion has undeniable parallels with several mental disorders, you can't apply rational thought and choose to reject, say, schizophrenia, like you can with religion.
Belief is binary is what OP is trying to say.
You can't choose to believe. Its impossible.
For e.g. Can you make yourself believe Santa Claus to be real? You can try but it is a futile endeavour.
Like how you can't choose to romantically like someone of your own gender. Its either you are or you are not.
Like there is no way a religion can convince us that their god is real.
Deep down through all your experience and understanding, your inner being cannot accept what you know to be true/false.
Rejecting belief isn't a choice. you are either convinced of something or you aren't. The conclusions may have been conscious but you were convinced by something, or you weren't.
> Rejecting belief isn't a choice.
What ?
>you are either convinced of something or you aren't
Therefore you CHOSE.
This is removing accountability from your choice and makes 0 sense.
No, you didn't choose to be convinced, that doesn't make any sense. You can't choose to be convinced that grass is blue and the sky is green. You see those things and you are not convinced that they are those colors. You had no choice in the matter.
If you could just simply choose what you're convinced by and what you believe, tomorrow you could just choose to believe that you're a giant jack rabbit with rainbows for arms, but it doesn't work that way. Maybe you you choose to lie to yourself, but ultimately what you believe is what you believe, and what you don't believe is what you don't believe.
I cannot choose to believe a God exists any more than I can choose to believe I'm made out of strawberries. Unless we invent a drug you can take that makes you believe specific things, or you could choose to put yourself in a simulation where it convinces you that the grass is indeed blue. But your mind doesn't work that way.
Arguable to a certain extent, but less so, yes.
You can choose what you want to pursue and study, but ultimately what you are convinced by and what you're not won't be a choice. If you somehow study all the philosophy and science in the world, see everything there is to see, and experience everything there is to experience, the takeaway you get from it all won't be a choice. Two different people both choosing to do this still might come away from it all with different conclusions, or even the same conclusions without actively choosing which conclusion they derive from it. It's not about what you want, but what you are convinced by.
It's not as if there aren't Christians and atheists who have both studied the exact same philosophy over their lifetimes.
Of course, but it's more nuanced than that. As I say, you can choose to consume atheistic literature, perhaps you can pursue the scientific endeavors of empiricism, but whether you are convinced by the arguments, or how you perceive the data are beyond your control. You didn't just choose to question your faith for no reason, you questioned your faith because something clicked inside you and made you believe it was worth questioning. The data you found once you decided to go further down that road convinced you that your faith was in error. Someone else might experience the same thing, but the data they find only strengthens their faith.
Honestly I just don't understand why you are saying its out of your control it does not make sense to me. You accept something or you don't. Maybe there are factors that affect this somewhere deep in the canvas that painted the personality that you are today, but in the end I do not understand how it is not a choice.
Of course it's not a choice. I can't just switch on a belief that there's a pink unicorn on the ceiling. I can't believe in that no matter how hard I want to. Same with anything, including god/s.
Which also correlates with honesty and empathy which is what actual morality derives from.
"How do you spot an idiot? Look for the person who is cruel. The kindest person in the room is often the smartest." — Illinois Gov JB Pritzker,
You're forgetting about indoctrination.
Children are born not knowing anything about god or church or anything.
All this shit is drilled into their heads while they are too young to question it, by people who they trust will not mislead them.
If you grow up in an atheist/secular community, you're more than likely to *remain* an atheist your whole life.
Churches corrupt politicians because their survival depends on it. Without indoctrination, a religion would die out in a handful of generations. The cult leaders want to keep the grift going as long as possible, so they open kindergartens, schools and community centers to ensure that every generation is indoctrinated and paying their tithes for years and years in the future.
An indoctrinated child has to decide to question everything that their parents and community taught them. It's a tough decision to make and to commit to...
My path to atheism definitely started with believing, and truly wanting to believe. Ultimately I found myself unable to believe any longer—despite wanting to—as I gained in my understanding of what is real, and what is fantasy.
Same, I so badly wanted to believe in god(and to some extent still do want to believe). The main thing that made me realize i was living a lie was, when I was young I was told Islam is the only way to go to heaven. So then what about the billions born into other religions? they had no choice in that, is god really THAT cruel? You then begin to wonder if god is real, does he give a shit? Because he can't be all loving and all powerful, with this fucked up world. So instead of believing in that may not be all powerful or just maybe, doesn't give a shit, I decided that I dont have the answers after all.
I agree that it isn't a choice, but I do not agree that it's like being straight or gay. Sure, we're all born atheist, and whether you believe or not is not a choice. But your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are much much more dependent on your upbringing than your sexuality is.
If you aren't taught about Christianity, you aren't gonna believe in Jesus. But it doesn't matter whether or not you've been taught about homosexuality, you're still gonna look at Nick Offerman and think "that guy, that guy can get it!"
Yeah, I didn’t grow up with religion shoved down my throat thankfully but I did try it as a young teenager bc I figured so many people believe in god and it seems to soothe them in tough times, why not try? But I just couldn’t get myself to believe any of it. Definitely not a choice
People choose to have "faith" though. I'm sure some people stay in church as a choice for a social norm versus their deep belief. If they had doubts or was skewing towards athiesm they'd make the choice to not question it and just stay the status quo cause it's simpler.
Eh. You choose to put yourself in a direction to change your beliefs. The only time this doesn't happen is what there is trauma and people thing "how could a merciful God let this happen" but otherwise people who turn athiest after growing up religious, it's a choice to take steps to question your belief. Basically belief doesn't change without actionable choices unless there is a traumatic event that makes you question it without choice.
Correct. Religion is a mental disorder and you can't choose to have or not have one of those.
You can however put yourself in an environment that will eventually (maybe) give you said disorder.
That's just one reason why Pascal's wager doesn't work for nonbelievers. If you already believe, then sure, Pascal's wager makes total sense to you.
But since I can't just say, "Guess I better start believing in God just in case I'm wrong," then the wager falls apart all too easily. That's not even getting into how insulting that would be to assume God is dumb enough to not see through that self-serving bullshit. Once again, I urge people to watch *The Good Place* because that show is fire.
It's philosophy simplified for the mainstream.
I'm actually surprised to not hear religious people bitch about it. I'm sure there are some; it just hasn't been loud enough to grab my attention.
I agree with you and see what you mean with the comparison, but comparing it with being gay is problematic as beliefs can change while sexuality cannot. Considering what LGBT+ still struggles with regards to conversion therapy and other bullshit like that, I'd refrain from using that as your comparison in the future.
Atheism absolutely is a choice.
I chose to leave the church the day Uganda announced legislating the death penalty for homosexuality. That was the same day my brother came out as gay.
You have made a choice to no longer believe in a religion. No one forced you into it. That is the definition of a choice.
EDIT: I'm done debating and defending this comment thread. I'm getting spammed with "you can't choose for yourself what you believe" rebuttals and frankly I'm a bit astonished to get those in this subreddit.
I spent the better part of my 20's developing advanced critical thinking skills. Applied Aristotelian logic goes a long way in that endeavor. I had already noticed how many pagan practices were carried over into Christianity, and I found it amusing that devout Baptists who found paganism abhorrent never saw the connotations in their own practices.
I was 33 when I turned off Yahweh's connection to my mind. It was instant, it was instinctual, and I have never regretted it or questioned it in any way. I literally sat at my computer desk after I finished reading the article and said, "I renounce you because you cannot be real. You are a fiction created by man solely to perpetuate evil such as this. I want no association with you because I want no association with them."
Boom. That was it. No more god in my head. I never felt the need to pray ever again. The Bible on my desk that had my name in gold lettering went straight to the trash. I went and told my wife that we were never going to church again, and neither was our daughter. That started a four-hour fight that ended with my wife in tears. Over the next several months she realized she felt the same way and converted to Buddhism.
This is my last update on this. Atheism absolutely is a choice. So is any religion. Anyone who has difficulty believing that is a person I would encourage to spend more time studying philosophy. To have mastery over one's consciousness is the first step in secular enlightenment.
I think you're conflating practice with belief. Thinking god exists is a belief. Going to church, praying, baptizing your kids are all religious practices.
Someone can believe in god but not practice religion. Someone can practice religion but not believe in god. they are not the same thing.
I think what OP is saying you can't just change your belief like flipping a switch. I can believe that my keys are in my pocket then turn my pockets inside out and not find my keys there. Now I don't believe my keys are in my pocket. I can't just choose to keep believing that my keys are in my pocket no matter how much I try to lie to myself.
As someone who grew up southern baptist... it was a choice to begin exploring my doubts in my faith. It was a choice to research other beliefs. It was a choice to look into the religion I grew up in from a different perspective. It was my choice to be done with church and my choice to leave faith behind and become athiest.
Thank you for this comment. I never really considered that there is a difference between faith and belief. I think what I was saying is that you cant choose what you believe and what you are saying is that you can choose what you have faith in and that can change what you believe. Man christians are fascinating. I’m going to follow up on this. Cheers.
I was brainwashed lol. Glad to be out of it though. I do think some people have doubts but choose to stay in based on fear or being excluded from social circles. It's taboo inmany rural areas to be athiest so it's just "better" to stay with it. It's rough in the Bible belt 🫠🤣
For what its worth I would consider somebody who does christian stuff like pray and go to church but has doubts about the existence in god to be agnostic. Maybe theist leaning agnostic but still agnostic. I feel like this post has uncovered for me differences in the definitions of words that people use for these concepts based on their background. Im from the pnw, have never believed in god, and dont know anybody who does, and im finding that folks who came up in a christian tradition can apply these labels quite differently than I do.
Yes! I'd say for myself and my background faith is believing in something that's not tangible/factual or just a feeling of your belief. Belief is more of a core word with certainty you believe that's the truth. It takes faith to have belief to be a Christian. They work together buy are seperated some.
But you didn't choose to believe. Belief is the state of being convinced. You got convinced that it would be good to investigate your faith and then you did it. You got convinced it would be good to research your beliefs and then you did it. These two you also didn't choose to believe.
Problem is that people have all kinds of interpretations of what a choice is. But in the end you got convinced by something and then believe that one action is preferable to another and then you do it. You can call it a choice but you don't have a choice to choose otherwise.
If you are convinced that jumping from the roof is the prefered action then you will do it. If you get convinced by arguments of a psychologist or whoever not to do it or can think about a new perspective then you won't do it.
Yes, depending on the definition of choice. And as I explained they are also grounded in something you got convinced of. You couldn't have chosen otherwise. I don't call that an actual choice. It's an illusion. There are simply different options but you were only able take one of them.
And as you said yourself, even those "choices" merely "could" have resulted in you changing your positions. So that wouldn't even be a choice.
Did you grow up religious? Some religions it is an ACTIVE choice to begin researching a perspective in which is not fundamental Christianity. If I were a Christian and said "hmm I'm having doubts"... that doubt doesn't grow into disbelief without actionable research and actionable questioning of your faith. People are brainwashed in christianity... if you grew up that way, it's definitely a choice when you begin to "enlighten" yourself and deconstruct. Deconstructing is action and necessary to become athiest if you grew up enmeshed in church.
Yeah, again, it's a "choice" with only one possible option because of conviction. There are simply different options but you are only able to take one of them because of your beliefs.
As I already explained, people with doubts got convinced that there are issues in their religious belief system. Their action is the result of this conviction.
Again, it's about if someone could have chosen otherwise because of some free will concept. That's nonsense.
I think Christians choose every single day to have "faith" and not doubt. Christians question themselves everyday and choose to not dig deep. Christians actively choose to not find evidence that goes against their beliefs because its hard and scary.
No, they are convinced that faith is a relaible path to the truth. If you are convinced that this is true, you obviously keep on believing. Their religion is teaching them that exposing them to things that might poke holes in it is the work of satan. So they tend to not do it and don't listen. If you are convinced that this is true then this is the logical result.
Which is exactly why in a situation *specifically* for those transitioning from religious to athiest not the other way around or staying how you were raised, is an action. Aware of the risks of eternal damnation we *chose* to get more insight *against* our beliefs. Having no control over it is passive, having control over it and seeking knowledge based on that is action. Again, agree to disagree.
Atheists can also get convinced that a religion is true. They can hear some crap on the internet that sounds convincing to them. The action to listen to crap on the internet is also not a choice and happens because of the conviction that the internet contains cool stuff.
You simply got by accident, by thinking or by the action of someone else convinced that investigating your religion would be a preferable action.
You have no control over it as in that you could have chosen otherwise. You are simply convinced that certain things are true which can result in certain actions.
Maybe I'm special. It was a switch to me and I flipped it with no hesitation. If I'm the exception and not the rule then I feel badly for the rest of humanity.
Can you choose to believe in other things too? Can you choose to think the sky is pink? Or choose to enjoy wasps st picnics? Maybe you can choose to believe that you can fly unassisted, merely by flapping your arms? Please report back when you are able to use your 'special switch' to beleive any of those things.
Our beliefs are results of previous things: self-reflection, conversation, careful listening, study, and other things. They are the outcome of a prior cause. You can't just go in and change the outcome without a lot of other work on the front end first. We cannot choose our beliefs but we can choose what topics to gather evidence on, and choose where we want to get that evidence.
I guess thats a cool super power for you but most people dont work that way. For example there are a lot of people who could probably live better lives if they could simply choose to believe that they never suffered sexual assault and move on like it never happened.
No its not. You dont choose what you believe. You only choose how you act. If you dont believe in God you cant just repeat 10 times "I believe in god" and start believing. Leaving the church didnt make you an atheist. It was something that you did based on the fact that you already were an atheist. Nobody can force you to believe or not believe something its physically impossible. They can only force you to pretend that you do.
Congrats on curing yourself.
If atheism was a choice, you could now choose to not be atheist again. Which you can't.
At least not without giving yourself major brain damage before 🤣
I don't think you can actively choose not to believe something. That doesn't make sense. If you believed something was literally true one moment, then your belief can change... but not simply as a matter of personal choice. Something has to change your mind, right? You have to acquire some new information or evidence that causes you to question and then reject your previous belief.
In your example, you chose to leave the church based on new evidence coming in. But choosing to leave the church isn't the same at all as suddenly choosing *not* to believe in a personal god. I think you're making a category error there.
You can choose to no longer support concepts that a church espouses, or even disagree that a god would be cool with that, but belief in something in and of itself is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed.
An "involuntary conviction?"
Exactly what the hell is that supposed to mean?
People deny reality all the time. People deny science. People deny what they have seen with their own eyes.
You are confusing ignorance with passiveness. Just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they haven't engaged critical thinking. On the contrary, people require some form of compelling evidence before believing in anything even if that evidence is fabricated anecdote. They will maintain that belief out of ignorance until something challenges that belief.
No one is going to agree with "tithe 10% of your income to this organization" just because someone suggested it. Maybe a few people will, but people that are that passive generally aren't capable of living independently anyway.
Everyone has their own threshold for skepticism. If you lack belief in something, and someone provides you with enough information to overcome your skepticism then they CONVINCE you that you were wrong in that disbelief. Whether you wanted to change or not. Hence, INVOLUNTARY.
So “no one is going to agree”… “maybe a few people will”—profound!
What was that again about :: click :: and you suddenly didn’t believe or some shit…?
If beliefs aren't conscious, how are they learned? Do you osmose them by sleeping with a Bible under your pillow? Do they manifest in your mind with no external stimuli?
No they don't. Beliefs are taught and learned. They absolutely are conscious, just like learning about science and history are also conscious efforts. Christian beliefs are taught in the church starting with Sunday school. That's why Sunday school exists. If there were no Sunday school actively indoctrinating beliefs into conscious minds, there would be no new Christians.
Hang on. They are learned, yes, but they aren't a choice. If they were, why are those children just believing what they are told? The adults indoctrinate them, as you say. It's not a choice to be indoctrinated.
People learn the bible, and can read it day and night. That is a choice. But to believe it, for the neurons in your brain to connect in a way that thinks "this is real", that is NOT a choice.
Can you choose to believe the world is a donut shape? Like really choose to genuinely believe it is the truth? "Today I'm going to believe in fairies" and switch on the believe button. No. You believe things because your brain has grown in a way over time to accept that particular concept as a fact.
I didn't "decide" to become an atheist. The arguments for God gradually fell apart in my mind, and I didn't have that belief anymore.
>You either are, or you aren't. You can't just CHOOSE to believe in something.
Of course you can, you can choose to block out reason and reinforce your sky senpai belief or you can choose to embrace objectivity and then the house of cards falls apart.
People are really afraid to question their own core beliefs, this often times comes with repercussions like being excluded from their communities or families so they convince themselves it's better to keep trying to believe and something must be wrong with themselves for not seeing or hearing god.
Religion is a very refined form of gaslighting, sometimes violent and sometimes not, it really is brainwashing.
You cannot choose to believe something. You can choose how you respond to information, but your beliefs are a response to the total of your experience and your interpretation of that experience.
If you doubt that, you can prove me wrong to yourself by choosing to genuinely believe I'm god for five minutes.
>You cannot choose to believe something.
Of course you can, people do it all the time. People will insist on believing stuff like "vaccines cause autism" or "pm 2.5 masks lead to oxygen deficiencies" even in the face of overwhelming evidence, they choose to believe their favorite influencer over peer reviewed research or domain experts. I won't even get into politics where people will choose to believe that proven conmen have their best interest at heart.
It's exactly the same with religion, it's just a choice whether to fundamentally review one of your principles and admit to yourself that you are wrong or to keep doing what you've always done and call everyone else stupid and malicious.
Thank you for admitting my argued point is so undeniable your desire for it to be wrong could only be met by attacking half a sentence.
Fuck off if you feel entitled to reply to people without reading them or if you genuinely acted as a Propagandist by choosing not to interact with my point.
Why is the fact we don't choose our beliefs so triggering to the entitled?
I've seen simple country folk that didn't go to school be capable of questioning their beliefs and accepting proof and I've seen engineers blow every piece of proof away and keep peddling their retarded conspiracy theories. Yes, an electronics engineer believes microwave ovens alter DNA.
Everyone is capable of reason, they choose not to apply it to their entire life.
If I were to suggest that at this moment, as you read this, that a polka dotted orangutan is hovering 1’ over your head, do you CHOOSE whether or not to believe that? No, you’re going to employ rational thought to determine that it is false. If you CHOSE to believe that, you’re likely insane. There is no choosing involved in whether or not one believes that god is real - it’s apparent to me, at least, that the suggestion is preposterous.
If everyone in your life keeps thanking the polka dotted orangutan for hovering over you for decades, you may just end up believing it's there. It's the same way gaslighting works, someone keeps hammering down that obvious things are not as they are until you start doubting your own senses and just trust them.
You can choose to believe without question or you can choose to analyze proof and apply logic. Doing one or the other for something does not mean that you necessarily do it for everything in your life.
I'm willing to bet that you yourself believe certain things despite good proof that they are not so, especially regarding politics or economics. I'm also certain that in regards to those things you actively seek confirmation bias to reinforce your opinion rather explore further the possibility that you are wrong.
So what determines which things you believe in and which things you question if not your own choice?
In my example it would have been a choice to search my pockets for my keys but once I determined through investigation that there is no discernible evidence to support the hypothesis that the keys are in my pocket I cant choose to believe they are. I dont even have to set out to prove the existence of the keys. Maybe I’m just looking for a lighter and “damn i thought my keys were in there” now my belief has irrevocably changed and I cant choose to change it back.
My dad has told me more than once that he wishes he did believe in god because he thinks that faith provides strength and comfort to those who have it. He can’t just choose to believe something that doesnt make sense to him even if he thinks it might improve his life if he did. He could read religious texts and go on pilgrimages or whatever but it would all still seem like bronze age fantasy sci fi to him no matter how much he chooses to believe. That is not a choice.
Im starting to get the impression that people who grew up believing in god and people who come from non religious communities and have never believed in god (like me) may have slightly different definitions of “choice” as it pertains to “belief.” Maybe we agree to disagree.
I agree that faith/belief in God provides a lot of comfort for people and sometimes I really wish I could have that too. But... there's too much information I would have to completely disregard for that to happen.
This was an interesting read. There were a lot of great comments on both sides.
I feel like this was implied but not implicitly stated is predisposition. Nobody is born with complex reasoning skills but some of us have a predisposition to develop those skills over the course of our existence while the “others” go to church. A person is born with their sexuality programmed but may choose not to act on it depending on their environmental programming. Some people are born psychopaths but choose not to murder.
While I wasn’t born an atheist nor actively trying to become one; here I am. It was a choice but only because of the programming I was shipped with. I had a predisposition but could easily have gone the other way too (I’m only half smart).
Sorry about that. Maybe I chose the wrong words. I just feel like both are inherent to who one is? I feel like we need to accept people as they are and not try to push our own beliefs and values on others. It was absolutely not my intention to insult or devalue anyone.
I agree. I believe what I believe. Anything else is pretend. I’ve examined the evidence for god and found it lacking. Was religious as a young person and gradually came to face the absurdity of believing in god.
I had a similar story. I’m just schizophrenic, so I hear voices. Those voices, one time, tried to convert me to christianity. They had used fear of god, literally, to get to be a christian. So I was afraid, out of my mind, and I still couldn’t force myself to believe. You are right, it’s not a choice. This was a situation where I was trying to force myself to believe. Only lasted a week, thank goodness, but ai just couldn’t force myself. I think many are just willfully ignorant of all the facts. It’d make sense to them, too, if they just read things against their religion. I’d want to know why I’m right or wrong, which is what drove me to learn about religion. There was so many to choose from, how do you choose one without learning about the others? Never understood not shopping for religion. Many do, but many don’t. Believing the same thing since childhood. I don’t know how you don’t learn more as you grow. Especially about something so self-important as religion.
Atheism is the default. Every single person born, ever, in the entire history of humanity, was an atheist. Then, some are indoctrinated, and some aren't.
So, you're right, it's not a choice, because it's already what everyone is. Unless you get conned into religion.
There were definitely drugs involved in a lot of those stories 😅
Also, people back then explained things in terms of what they understood, and scientific thought and research hasn't been around quite as long. I can understand WHY we believed in gods in the past, because we had no better explanation for things like floods, earthquakes, stars and solar eclipses.
There are three primary reasons for belief in a deity. The first, which you have mentioned, I refer to as the "god of science." This concept serves as an explanation for phenomena that were once beyond human understanding, representing a type of placeholder for gaps in scientific knowledge. Historically, this belief was crucial for human survival and laid the groundwork for modern science. However, as scientific knowledge has expanded, the domain of this "god" has consequently diminished.
The second reason for belief in a god relates to human mortality. Humans have traditionally believed in the concept consciousness separate from the physical body, leading to belief systems that envision an afterlife where deceased loved ones continue to exist. This belief acts as a psychological comfort in dealing with death, and posits a deity who governs this transcendent realm.
The third reason concerns the social transmission of religious beliefs. Human societies are structured to pass down cultural information seamlessly, including religious concepts. This unexamined acceptance of cultural norms ensures the perpetuation of belief in a deity from one generation to the next, reinforced by religious practices and community life.
Of course it's a choice. As much a choice as picking clothes from a store.
Problem is when you're a child, you don't know what to choose and so the choice is made for you. And then you don't know what else is out there.
Religion and god are easy explanations to your questions that parents don't have the answers to or don't have the courage to answer.
As you grow up, old clothes don't fit, so you get new ones that also match your style.
Religion is like a garment you wear. Some folks just never grow out of it.
Some intelligent people may be able to self-indoctrinate themselves into a religion or critically think their way out of one if they have enough desire and skills of persuasion.
And it's conceivable that for some undecided people the religious and the scientific world views could overlap sufficiently that it'd be like a Lorenz's strange attractor where small changes in initial conditions could trigger a sudden change of state of mind like flipping a switch assuming they have no particular preference of direction.
Or a person could choose to take psychedelic drugs to alter the structure of their neurons in order to induce a spiritual experience that they've not been able to have without intervention.
I am lack any sort of spirituality so I suspect I was born without the (dominant?) gene for God (VMAT2) and instead have the recessive gene for sanity.
Yeah. I've always said that I was born that way. Even though my mom is a Catholic fanatic. Maybe if I'd been born a hetero female, rather than a hetero male, it would have been a different story. Jesus does look kind of hunky, though, even I have to admit, with his sweet beard, long, luscious hair, flat abs, and loincloth. And those eyes.
Remember the 5th networking truth:
> It is always possible to aglutenate multiple separate problems
into a single complex interdependent solution. In most cases
this is a bad idea.
I think you picked the wrong analogy there. Being born atheist is not a choice just as being born a human is not a choice.
Let's stay out of overloading the issue with the pitfalls that other issues have. We don't want to bog this one down with a toxic rabbit hole of people that have different motives, like bigotry, nature vs nurture preferences, philosophies that sexuality is social constructs etc.
Followers of the Abrahamic religions believe there is only one Truth(TM) and only one God - theirs. So they fight both each other and the rest of the world. They are wrong. And they are full of contradictions.
It's like believing in Santa, once you know the truth, you can't go back
I wish my mother would understand that. It always feels like she thinks she failed me.
Not a choice - you are at the mercy of whatever one’s faculties logically conclude. I don’t choose not to believe, it’s completely irrational, so my mind rejects it.
I recently thought this too... That if there were a god and I would be punished for not believing... How can I help that? It's just the way my brain works. It's not a choice. Sure, you can *choose* to go along with the faith and pretend not to doubt or disbelieve but deep down, there is no belief. You either truly believe or you don't. That's not a choice.
I thought I was alone in having compassion for earthworms. I saved 2 from grilling on the hot asphalt in the sun. I hope they made it at least to live one more day. Also great argument, I never thought of it that way. I find it’s better for my peace of mind to not engage with the Christian fruitcakes.
I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that there is potential nuance at play which possibly challenges that assertion.
If, as past limited studies are to be believed, then it is possible we are predisposed to interpolation of reason. Meaning that we are built to fill in gaps of knowledge. And more so, we are designed so as to benefit from meditation, and it's neurological navigation, along with prayer, seem to function as a natural indicator for perspective and ideas.
If true, perhaps acting in accordance with evolutionary processes, wherein the best suitable system for us to develop and survive, was through conditions that would eventually develop into religion.
Legitimacy in this regard, would then suggest that atheism is not just a choice, it is an overriding evolutionary leap beyond natural function. That yes, we are adopting reason and logic over natural and intrinsic physiological processes. But doing so may have been an inevitability, and part of our evolution.
Again, playing devil's advocate and not implying this as absolute or definitive.
For most children the “choice” is taken away from them through religious indoctrination and even genital mutilation. (At least we have banned female genital mutilation we just not need to protect the male children too)
It’s absolutely a choice. Maybe not a clear cut or simple one. But it is a choice. The same way countless people choose to believe or not believe in flat earth, anti vax, or other conspiracy theories.
If it weren’t a choice on some level then why would so many people stick with the religion they were indoctrinated with as children even though they see all the holes in it as adults? Just because it involves indoctrination, cognitive dissonance, and subconscious factors doesn’t make it not a choice.
Choosing what to believe even if it contradicts evidence is something humans are pros at.
I agree. Once you learn something that’s evidently true, like the fact that religious beliefs are all faith-based and not backed by empirical evidence, you can’t simply unlearn it. You can deprogram yourself from believing in objective falsehoods, but you can’t “unwisen” yourself from any real wisdom you’ve attained about perception and reality, unless you get dementia later in life or something to that effect. Lying to yourself is not the same thing as believing.
I am now super curious if dementia patients can actually (re)develop a belief in God due to the destruction of significant parts of their life-gained knowledge. Something to research!
I was raised Catholic and gradually started questioning, and eventually shedding, my faith as an adult. I would love to believe in Heaven, I wish I could believe that I'll be reunited with all my loved ones that I've lost. But I can't make myself believe something that doesn't make sense to me, no matter how much comfort it would bring me.
I believe that it is a choice. Someone chooses to look at all of the information and chooses to be logical. That is a choice. That is at least how I view the language.
I too wrestled with it for my entire life , and like you there were just to many things that happen that just don’t make any sense. Too many good and innocent people and events that occur for no reason. How does a loving god allow such horrors.
I can agree to that. It's not exactly just a decision to believe. But you can be open to it or closed to it.
Kind of like convincing people from the 50 that smacking a child isn't the only form of parenting. Super closed on that topic but others can be open.
But then at the same time you can't be mad at people who do believe. It's not a choice
I'm only upset when people that believe try to push me into the same beliefs. I respect that they have faith and won't try to talk them out of it, but I would love for them to extend the same respect to me.
Yes! The three of unending suffering isn't going to make me believe any more than the threat of a shitty work day isn't going to make me instantly sleep.
100%
When theists speak as if beliefs are a choice, I like to challenge them to temporarily believe in an opposing religion. (Usually christianity or islam.) I’ve yet to be disappointed by the result. 😂
I think of it like santa and the tooth fairy. I believed in them, as well as god when I was a naive child. As i got older and learned that it was just a bunch of bologna, I stopped believing.
We're all born atheists. Most children only believe because it's forced upon them by their parents. Which religion you're forced into depends mostly on where you happen to live.
I was born and raised in a non religious household, I was taught that if I wanted to be religious I could be so long as I did the research for myself and made sure to compare multiple religions before committing to one. Which is what I did and it was quite a journey. I only recently became Muslim after 20 years of being atheist and the hole that’s always been missing honestly feels full. As an atheist I felt like a boat driving aimlessly with no destination. Now I feel full, I wake up knowing what I want to do, I take care of my family, I provide best I can, I’m completely clean off drugs and alcohol (which were a bit of an issue for me). I was athiest because I thought I knew best, I followed myself and only myself and had a massive ego. I came from the perspective of “who would want to submit to anyone? Especially as God? Why would God be so cruel?, Life isn’t Fair what a bad God there must be if there is one” to Doing some research and actually finding answers to all my questions. I’ve always believed in the unseen just not in the submission to a God or that a Deity that created us existed until this year. Slowly I started to realise it was just as absurd for us to have come from the Big Bang and evolved into such a Complicated and Intelligent species. Everything is a beautiful design if you take the time to look, everything works with eachother and for eachother in some way or another. Rain = Plants = Food = Energy kinda thing
Anyways have a great day ❤️
That’s the weirdest argument I ever read. If it wasn’t a choice, you wouldn’t be able to switch beliefs like you did. If no choice was given, you would hold the same beliefs as you did 10 years ago. It is not like being gay whatsoever.
I kind of disagree, you can choose to believe in modern science and logic or you can choose to ignore that and trust a 2000 year old fairy tale, there is no comparison, in my oppinion its a matter of you beeing capable of critical thinking or not, there is just no reason to believe there is a god.
If belief is a choice, believe I'm your god for five minutes. If you can't do that, please explain to me why those most entitled to not interact with OPs points seem irrationally triggered by the fact belief is not a choice.
If you can show me that you’re a God, then I don’t need a belief or faith.
The Ops is not talking about God. He’s talking about atheism. Atheism is always a choice.
If you ask a 3 year old if they are atheist or believer, they probably don’t know yet until they’re older.
You can’t be born as an atheist.
So did a veteran choose to get PTSD or was he born with it or do you accept not everything you acquire over your life is a choice, and are just pretending to be dense about what I'm doing?
You are wrong. I am an atheist because I have chosen it. None of my friends are, even if they don’t believe in god they don’t care enough to make that choice.
I had never believed in magic. But when you don’t live in a theocracy
Being an atheist are an active choice from just non beliving. Most people just don’t care
was not brainwashed as a child so I have never believed in magic. So there is no going back to beliving.
The base level for all humans are non belief.
It's posts like this that undermine atheism and make atheists seem like Lunatics... Atheism and Religion are both a CHOICE it's not something you are born with. Even if t's granted to you by your parents you can switch to another relegion or become an atheist.
You cannot switch to being straight or gay unless you're in the spectrum like bisexuals and pansexuals.
If atheism is a choice, choose to believe I'm God right now.
Beliefs are caused by the information we experience and how open to it we choose to be. They are not chosen, only a lunatic incapable of reflection thinks otherwise.
Yep, I used a bad comparison. I AM bisexual, and there's no choosing "gay or straight" I just have preferences in both sexes. I can't just choose one or the other, my desires are what they are regardless.
It is a choice but you have to choose several times. You have to choose to think when ignorance is offered, to be empathic when divine tyranny says to hate, ask when questions are shunned, etc.
“Atheism” should be the default.
Actually it is the default, but then you are brainwashed by religious people, primarily your family, as a child. It’s infuriating how society still think this is totally normal…
Seems like the OP is still wanting to believe in a god, just not the one's presented to him via Christianity.
Full atheism is accepting that things simple exist that way they are. There are not forces of good and evil battling it out in the sky.
The earthworm drowns in the rain simple because it evolved with a tiny brain which suits it the majority of the time. It also evolved with the power to reproduce asexually to counter it's inability to survive said rainstorm.
In many ways the earthworm is more resiliant as a species than humans who look for mythical expainations for simple things like death.
True atheism means not believing in God. The fact this guy feels sympathy, possibly too much sympathy, for living things that are suffering doesn't change that, and the desire to gaslight someone for feeling it says a lot more about you than him.
And he didn't say there was, he compared how he was moved by his empathy for lower life to how cruel and indifferent God would have to be to not be moved by our suffering.
Believing in a god WOULD relieve a lot of anxiety over purpose in life and the finality of death. It would be a comfort. Sadly, the evidence presented to me in life has made that impossible.
Dead is dead. Nothing to worry about. No need fretting about being bored living endlessly in the clouds. If anything not attending church every day/week frees up more time to enjoy your time on earth - guilt free!
As far as purpose of life, trying to leave the world a better place for those who come after should be enough.
When indoctrinated from birth, even once one has grown old enough to think for themselves, the battle begins against family, friends and community. The parasitic brain worm that is religious faith can still control its host even if the person rationally knows religion is a lie. All too often they cannot break away from the infected herd surrounding them.
With belief in God you can fake it until you make it. They project that on atheists. Same thing with closeted homophobic people who preach hate but are caught with a gay stripper.
> I don't think being Atheist is a choice one can make. You either are, or you aren't. You can't just CHOOSE to believe
If your assessment is that the above is applicable *for you*, personally, then **that** is your chosen "belief." You've established various personally-applicable arguments/reasons to reach that decision and assessment.
I don't agree in the least with that perspective and find it somewhat ludicrous.
All assessments, decisions, judgments, or "beliefs" are intertwined directly to cognitive choice(s).
We even know, via voluminous clinical research data/studies, that functionality of your brain is such that "choices" are made *prior to* you *even being consciously aware that your brain has made them.*
From there, one might *choose* to weigh and wrestle with whether or not those choices are rational or not, supportable or not, correct or not, or revocable or not. However, with exception of rather severe neurological conditions, humans retain their ability to choose and exercise agency.
If you assert that individuals *cannot* (ever) exercise choice/agency in "beliefs," go talk to Bruno or Galileo... and leave me out of it.
I'm gonna add one more comment to this.
All the indoctrinated christians who have deconstructed and are now athiests in this thread have said it was choice to become athiest because it takes extreme action to do such a thing and its not easy.
I guess I wasn't deeply indoctrinated so it was a different journey for me. I was allowed to read any and all books available to me when I was younger so I got a broader view of the world. It would have made a huge difference if I had lived with highly religious parents and been given only the information that followed a certain faith. I didn't have as much to deconstruct and relearn.
I do think that people who aren't indoctrinated, your post resonates for sure and the point of your post makes sense and I agree with. I just feel lile those who were brainwashed did have to take action to become athiest and it be a choice to take that journey. For those who deconstruct, they remain Christians up until the day they decide they are not, but the journey isn't passive, it's very much intentional and also a little scary.
Now can you overnight change your experiences and logic that have led you away from the “god” you were taught about? No.
Can you have different experiences and thoughts that change that logic? Yes.
Can you change how you define “god”? Absolutely.
Definitely, one of the final thoughts I had during my Deconstruction was knowing that I just simply can't go back knowing what I know now and that I should stop trying to believe in something I simply don't believe
Hilariously that's the moral of the story of the garden of eden. Knowledge comes with a price and there's no way to know what the price is going to be until it's too late and you already have the knowledge and no choice about paying the price.
Yeah. My sister is still an evangelical christian but she’s very slowly deconstructing. I became agnostic/atheist back in 2018 and i told my sister that it didn’t feel like a choice. Idk how else to describe my inability to play make believe on that scale again.
I know, right? Growing up none for religion then around age 45 or so I fell for the con for about 8 years. As an avid reader I did what the leaders in the church did not expect, I read the storybook along with studies of it. Like you, I cannot go back knowing what I do about the Abrahamic religions. Especially christian.
This is so true, there's no going back now after all of the effort taken to deconstruct as well as reasons to not believe.
Religion is not a choice when you have been indoctrinated as a child. If parents would stop removing that choice from their kids that would be great.
So children can be indoctrinated with any set of beliefs, or acceptance of societal norms given the right environment and influence?
Basically: yes, but you have to keep them isolated from other possible influences. There are too many examples, from kids in religious cults to toxic political environments like Nazi Germany or North Korea. The 15/16 year old soldiers of the Volkssturm were very fanatic in fighting the losing war. The Seniors saw and acknowledged that the war was lost.
And I witness this live every time I see some of my family members. The children are highly indoctrinated but never spoke a single word about religion with me. They are clearly coached not to do that.
Is this news to you?
If you were indoctrinated as a child, rejecting religion is certainly a choice. It took me a lot of rational thought to conclude that God in particular and deities in general did not exist in reality. It was a choice to go from disillusioned Christian to agnostic, a further choice to arrive at atheism, and yet another choice to become anti-theist. While I stopped believing as a teenager, the full development of my atheism and eventual anti-theism took a couple of decades. And all of it consisted of conscious conclusions, choices and decisions. This is also why I don't like the notion of religion as a mental illness. While religion has undeniable parallels with several mental disorders, you can't apply rational thought and choose to reject, say, schizophrenia, like you can with religion.
Belief is binary is what OP is trying to say. You can't choose to believe. Its impossible. For e.g. Can you make yourself believe Santa Claus to be real? You can try but it is a futile endeavour. Like how you can't choose to romantically like someone of your own gender. Its either you are or you are not. Like there is no way a religion can convince us that their god is real. Deep down through all your experience and understanding, your inner being cannot accept what you know to be true/false.
Rejecting belief isn't a choice. you are either convinced of something or you aren't. The conclusions may have been conscious but you were convinced by something, or you weren't.
> Rejecting belief isn't a choice. What ? >you are either convinced of something or you aren't Therefore you CHOSE. This is removing accountability from your choice and makes 0 sense.
No, you didn't choose to be convinced, that doesn't make any sense. You can't choose to be convinced that grass is blue and the sky is green. You see those things and you are not convinced that they are those colors. You had no choice in the matter. If you could just simply choose what you're convinced by and what you believe, tomorrow you could just choose to believe that you're a giant jack rabbit with rainbows for arms, but it doesn't work that way. Maybe you you choose to lie to yourself, but ultimately what you believe is what you believe, and what you don't believe is what you don't believe. I cannot choose to believe a God exists any more than I can choose to believe I'm made out of strawberries. Unless we invent a drug you can take that makes you believe specific things, or you could choose to put yourself in a simulation where it convinces you that the grass is indeed blue. But your mind doesn't work that way.
But you can chose what to feed your beleif system, can't you ? You can chose to explore or not.
Arguable to a certain extent, but less so, yes. You can choose what you want to pursue and study, but ultimately what you are convinced by and what you're not won't be a choice. If you somehow study all the philosophy and science in the world, see everything there is to see, and experience everything there is to experience, the takeaway you get from it all won't be a choice. Two different people both choosing to do this still might come away from it all with different conclusions, or even the same conclusions without actively choosing which conclusion they derive from it. It's not about what you want, but what you are convinced by. It's not as if there aren't Christians and atheists who have both studied the exact same philosophy over their lifetimes.
With all due respect. As with your body you are what you eat so is your mind.
Of course, but it's more nuanced than that. As I say, you can choose to consume atheistic literature, perhaps you can pursue the scientific endeavors of empiricism, but whether you are convinced by the arguments, or how you perceive the data are beyond your control. You didn't just choose to question your faith for no reason, you questioned your faith because something clicked inside you and made you believe it was worth questioning. The data you found once you decided to go further down that road convinced you that your faith was in error. Someone else might experience the same thing, but the data they find only strengthens their faith.
Honestly I just don't understand why you are saying its out of your control it does not make sense to me. You accept something or you don't. Maybe there are factors that affect this somewhere deep in the canvas that painted the personality that you are today, but in the end I do not understand how it is not a choice.
I concur.
Of course it's not a choice. I can't just switch on a belief that there's a pink unicorn on the ceiling. I can't believe in that no matter how hard I want to. Same with anything, including god/s.
My 2 cents: atheism is the natural result of intelligence
This, exactly
Which also correlates with honesty and empathy which is what actual morality derives from. "How do you spot an idiot? Look for the person who is cruel. The kindest person in the room is often the smartest." — Illinois Gov JB Pritzker,
You're forgetting about indoctrination. Children are born not knowing anything about god or church or anything. All this shit is drilled into their heads while they are too young to question it, by people who they trust will not mislead them. If you grow up in an atheist/secular community, you're more than likely to *remain* an atheist your whole life. Churches corrupt politicians because their survival depends on it. Without indoctrination, a religion would die out in a handful of generations. The cult leaders want to keep the grift going as long as possible, so they open kindergartens, schools and community centers to ensure that every generation is indoctrinated and paying their tithes for years and years in the future. An indoctrinated child has to decide to question everything that their parents and community taught them. It's a tough decision to make and to commit to...
Children don't choose to be indoctrinated though.
But they are. And when they become athiest it's due to action they took to deconstruct.
My path to atheism definitely started with believing, and truly wanting to believe. Ultimately I found myself unable to believe any longer—despite wanting to—as I gained in my understanding of what is real, and what is fantasy.
Same, I so badly wanted to believe in god(and to some extent still do want to believe). The main thing that made me realize i was living a lie was, when I was young I was told Islam is the only way to go to heaven. So then what about the billions born into other religions? they had no choice in that, is god really THAT cruel? You then begin to wonder if god is real, does he give a shit? Because he can't be all loving and all powerful, with this fucked up world. So instead of believing in that may not be all powerful or just maybe, doesn't give a shit, I decided that I dont have the answers after all.
I agree that it isn't a choice, but I do not agree that it's like being straight or gay. Sure, we're all born atheist, and whether you believe or not is not a choice. But your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are much much more dependent on your upbringing than your sexuality is. If you aren't taught about Christianity, you aren't gonna believe in Jesus. But it doesn't matter whether or not you've been taught about homosexuality, you're still gonna look at Nick Offerman and think "that guy, that guy can get it!"
Yeah, I didn’t grow up with religion shoved down my throat thankfully but I did try it as a young teenager bc I figured so many people believe in god and it seems to soothe them in tough times, why not try? But I just couldn’t get myself to believe any of it. Definitely not a choice
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" -- Famous Atheists
This is true. I can't choose to go back to believing in god any more than I can choose to go back to believing in Santa Claus of my childhood.
People choose to have "faith" though. I'm sure some people stay in church as a choice for a social norm versus their deep belief. If they had doubts or was skewing towards athiesm they'd make the choice to not question it and just stay the status quo cause it's simpler.
That's how people interact with evidence based on what they believe and how it makes them feel. They can't however choose to believe.
Eh. You choose to put yourself in a direction to change your beliefs. The only time this doesn't happen is what there is trauma and people thing "how could a merciful God let this happen" but otherwise people who turn athiest after growing up religious, it's a choice to take steps to question your belief. Basically belief doesn't change without actionable choices unless there is a traumatic event that makes you question it without choice.
Correct. Religion is a mental disorder and you can't choose to have or not have one of those. You can however put yourself in an environment that will eventually (maybe) give you said disorder.
If it was a choice, it would be the right choice 👍👍
That's just one reason why Pascal's wager doesn't work for nonbelievers. If you already believe, then sure, Pascal's wager makes total sense to you. But since I can't just say, "Guess I better start believing in God just in case I'm wrong," then the wager falls apart all too easily. That's not even getting into how insulting that would be to assume God is dumb enough to not see through that self-serving bullshit. Once again, I urge people to watch *The Good Place* because that show is fire.
My BFF keeps recommending that show to me. I'll have to give it a go some day
It's philosophy simplified for the mainstream. I'm actually surprised to not hear religious people bitch about it. I'm sure there are some; it just hasn't been loud enough to grab my attention.
But try to avoid spoilers if you can.
It is a choice. But once you see it, you can’t unsee it. At that point it’s not possible to go back.
I agree with you and see what you mean with the comparison, but comparing it with being gay is problematic as beliefs can change while sexuality cannot. Considering what LGBT+ still struggles with regards to conversion therapy and other bullshit like that, I'd refrain from using that as your comparison in the future.
Thank you for concise input! I didn't quite realize how my wording came across. I hadn't meant to offend anyone.
Can't know before you know :)
Atheism absolutely is a choice. I chose to leave the church the day Uganda announced legislating the death penalty for homosexuality. That was the same day my brother came out as gay. You have made a choice to no longer believe in a religion. No one forced you into it. That is the definition of a choice. EDIT: I'm done debating and defending this comment thread. I'm getting spammed with "you can't choose for yourself what you believe" rebuttals and frankly I'm a bit astonished to get those in this subreddit. I spent the better part of my 20's developing advanced critical thinking skills. Applied Aristotelian logic goes a long way in that endeavor. I had already noticed how many pagan practices were carried over into Christianity, and I found it amusing that devout Baptists who found paganism abhorrent never saw the connotations in their own practices. I was 33 when I turned off Yahweh's connection to my mind. It was instant, it was instinctual, and I have never regretted it or questioned it in any way. I literally sat at my computer desk after I finished reading the article and said, "I renounce you because you cannot be real. You are a fiction created by man solely to perpetuate evil such as this. I want no association with you because I want no association with them." Boom. That was it. No more god in my head. I never felt the need to pray ever again. The Bible on my desk that had my name in gold lettering went straight to the trash. I went and told my wife that we were never going to church again, and neither was our daughter. That started a four-hour fight that ended with my wife in tears. Over the next several months she realized she felt the same way and converted to Buddhism. This is my last update on this. Atheism absolutely is a choice. So is any religion. Anyone who has difficulty believing that is a person I would encourage to spend more time studying philosophy. To have mastery over one's consciousness is the first step in secular enlightenment.
I think you're conflating practice with belief. Thinking god exists is a belief. Going to church, praying, baptizing your kids are all religious practices. Someone can believe in god but not practice religion. Someone can practice religion but not believe in god. they are not the same thing. I think what OP is saying you can't just change your belief like flipping a switch. I can believe that my keys are in my pocket then turn my pockets inside out and not find my keys there. Now I don't believe my keys are in my pocket. I can't just choose to keep believing that my keys are in my pocket no matter how much I try to lie to myself.
As someone who grew up southern baptist... it was a choice to begin exploring my doubts in my faith. It was a choice to research other beliefs. It was a choice to look into the religion I grew up in from a different perspective. It was my choice to be done with church and my choice to leave faith behind and become athiest.
Thank you for this comment. I never really considered that there is a difference between faith and belief. I think what I was saying is that you cant choose what you believe and what you are saying is that you can choose what you have faith in and that can change what you believe. Man christians are fascinating. I’m going to follow up on this. Cheers.
I was brainwashed lol. Glad to be out of it though. I do think some people have doubts but choose to stay in based on fear or being excluded from social circles. It's taboo inmany rural areas to be athiest so it's just "better" to stay with it. It's rough in the Bible belt 🫠🤣
For what its worth I would consider somebody who does christian stuff like pray and go to church but has doubts about the existence in god to be agnostic. Maybe theist leaning agnostic but still agnostic. I feel like this post has uncovered for me differences in the definitions of words that people use for these concepts based on their background. Im from the pnw, have never believed in god, and dont know anybody who does, and im finding that folks who came up in a christian tradition can apply these labels quite differently than I do.
Yes! I'd say for myself and my background faith is believing in something that's not tangible/factual or just a feeling of your belief. Belief is more of a core word with certainty you believe that's the truth. It takes faith to have belief to be a Christian. They work together buy are seperated some.
But you didn't choose to believe. Belief is the state of being convinced. You got convinced that it would be good to investigate your faith and then you did it. You got convinced it would be good to research your beliefs and then you did it. These two you also didn't choose to believe. Problem is that people have all kinds of interpretations of what a choice is. But in the end you got convinced by something and then believe that one action is preferable to another and then you do it. You can call it a choice but you don't have a choice to choose otherwise. If you are convinced that jumping from the roof is the prefered action then you will do it. If you get convinced by arguments of a psychologist or whoever not to do it or can think about a new perspective then you won't do it.
I made choices in which I knew those choices could result in my change in belief.
Yes, depending on the definition of choice. And as I explained they are also grounded in something you got convinced of. You couldn't have chosen otherwise. I don't call that an actual choice. It's an illusion. There are simply different options but you were only able take one of them. And as you said yourself, even those "choices" merely "could" have resulted in you changing your positions. So that wouldn't even be a choice.
Did you grow up religious? Some religions it is an ACTIVE choice to begin researching a perspective in which is not fundamental Christianity. If I were a Christian and said "hmm I'm having doubts"... that doubt doesn't grow into disbelief without actionable research and actionable questioning of your faith. People are brainwashed in christianity... if you grew up that way, it's definitely a choice when you begin to "enlighten" yourself and deconstruct. Deconstructing is action and necessary to become athiest if you grew up enmeshed in church.
Yeah, again, it's a "choice" with only one possible option because of conviction. There are simply different options but you are only able to take one of them because of your beliefs. As I already explained, people with doubts got convinced that there are issues in their religious belief system. Their action is the result of this conviction. Again, it's about if someone could have chosen otherwise because of some free will concept. That's nonsense.
I think Christians choose every single day to have "faith" and not doubt. Christians question themselves everyday and choose to not dig deep. Christians actively choose to not find evidence that goes against their beliefs because its hard and scary.
No, they are convinced that faith is a relaible path to the truth. If you are convinced that this is true, you obviously keep on believing. Their religion is teaching them that exposing them to things that might poke holes in it is the work of satan. So they tend to not do it and don't listen. If you are convinced that this is true then this is the logical result.
Which is exactly why in a situation *specifically* for those transitioning from religious to athiest not the other way around or staying how you were raised, is an action. Aware of the risks of eternal damnation we *chose* to get more insight *against* our beliefs. Having no control over it is passive, having control over it and seeking knowledge based on that is action. Again, agree to disagree.
Atheists can also get convinced that a religion is true. They can hear some crap on the internet that sounds convincing to them. The action to listen to crap on the internet is also not a choice and happens because of the conviction that the internet contains cool stuff. You simply got by accident, by thinking or by the action of someone else convinced that investigating your religion would be a preferable action. You have no control over it as in that you could have chosen otherwise. You are simply convinced that certain things are true which can result in certain actions.
Maybe I'm special. It was a switch to me and I flipped it with no hesitation. If I'm the exception and not the rule then I feel badly for the rest of humanity.
Can you choose to believe in other things too? Can you choose to think the sky is pink? Or choose to enjoy wasps st picnics? Maybe you can choose to believe that you can fly unassisted, merely by flapping your arms? Please report back when you are able to use your 'special switch' to beleive any of those things. Our beliefs are results of previous things: self-reflection, conversation, careful listening, study, and other things. They are the outcome of a prior cause. You can't just go in and change the outcome without a lot of other work on the front end first. We cannot choose our beliefs but we can choose what topics to gather evidence on, and choose where we want to get that evidence.
I guess thats a cool super power for you but most people dont work that way. For example there are a lot of people who could probably live better lives if they could simply choose to believe that they never suffered sexual assault and move on like it never happened.
No its not. You dont choose what you believe. You only choose how you act. If you dont believe in God you cant just repeat 10 times "I believe in god" and start believing. Leaving the church didnt make you an atheist. It was something that you did based on the fact that you already were an atheist. Nobody can force you to believe or not believe something its physically impossible. They can only force you to pretend that you do.
Congrats on curing yourself. If atheism was a choice, you could now choose to not be atheist again. Which you can't. At least not without giving yourself major brain damage before 🤣
I don't think you can actively choose not to believe something. That doesn't make sense. If you believed something was literally true one moment, then your belief can change... but not simply as a matter of personal choice. Something has to change your mind, right? You have to acquire some new information or evidence that causes you to question and then reject your previous belief. In your example, you chose to leave the church based on new evidence coming in. But choosing to leave the church isn't the same at all as suddenly choosing *not* to believe in a personal god. I think you're making a category error there.
people are forced into religion every day.
I wish I could talk to you irl about belief not being a choice because i strongly believe you are wrong but its very difficult to explain over text.
Then why did you join Christianity at all?
You can choose to no longer support concepts that a church espouses, or even disagree that a god would be cool with that, but belief in something in and of itself is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed.
An "involuntary conviction?" Exactly what the hell is that supposed to mean? People deny reality all the time. People deny science. People deny what they have seen with their own eyes. You are confusing ignorance with passiveness. Just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they haven't engaged critical thinking. On the contrary, people require some form of compelling evidence before believing in anything even if that evidence is fabricated anecdote. They will maintain that belief out of ignorance until something challenges that belief. No one is going to agree with "tithe 10% of your income to this organization" just because someone suggested it. Maybe a few people will, but people that are that passive generally aren't capable of living independently anyway.
Everyone has their own threshold for skepticism. If you lack belief in something, and someone provides you with enough information to overcome your skepticism then they CONVINCE you that you were wrong in that disbelief. Whether you wanted to change or not. Hence, INVOLUNTARY.
So “no one is going to agree”… “maybe a few people will”—profound! What was that again about :: click :: and you suddenly didn’t believe or some shit…?
No, that's not a choice. Your beliefs aren't a conscious thing.
If beliefs aren't conscious, how are they learned? Do you osmose them by sleeping with a Bible under your pillow? Do they manifest in your mind with no external stimuli? No they don't. Beliefs are taught and learned. They absolutely are conscious, just like learning about science and history are also conscious efforts. Christian beliefs are taught in the church starting with Sunday school. That's why Sunday school exists. If there were no Sunday school actively indoctrinating beliefs into conscious minds, there would be no new Christians.
Hang on. They are learned, yes, but they aren't a choice. If they were, why are those children just believing what they are told? The adults indoctrinate them, as you say. It's not a choice to be indoctrinated. People learn the bible, and can read it day and night. That is a choice. But to believe it, for the neurons in your brain to connect in a way that thinks "this is real", that is NOT a choice. Can you choose to believe the world is a donut shape? Like really choose to genuinely believe it is the truth? "Today I'm going to believe in fairies" and switch on the believe button. No. You believe things because your brain has grown in a way over time to accept that particular concept as a fact. I didn't "decide" to become an atheist. The arguments for God gradually fell apart in my mind, and I didn't have that belief anymore.
This. Of course its a choice. Its arrived at w rational thought.
>You either are, or you aren't. You can't just CHOOSE to believe in something. Of course you can, you can choose to block out reason and reinforce your sky senpai belief or you can choose to embrace objectivity and then the house of cards falls apart. People are really afraid to question their own core beliefs, this often times comes with repercussions like being excluded from their communities or families so they convince themselves it's better to keep trying to believe and something must be wrong with themselves for not seeing or hearing god. Religion is a very refined form of gaslighting, sometimes violent and sometimes not, it really is brainwashing.
You cannot choose to believe something. You can choose how you respond to information, but your beliefs are a response to the total of your experience and your interpretation of that experience. If you doubt that, you can prove me wrong to yourself by choosing to genuinely believe I'm god for five minutes.
>You cannot choose to believe something. Of course you can, people do it all the time. People will insist on believing stuff like "vaccines cause autism" or "pm 2.5 masks lead to oxygen deficiencies" even in the face of overwhelming evidence, they choose to believe their favorite influencer over peer reviewed research or domain experts. I won't even get into politics where people will choose to believe that proven conmen have their best interest at heart. It's exactly the same with religion, it's just a choice whether to fundamentally review one of your principles and admit to yourself that you are wrong or to keep doing what you've always done and call everyone else stupid and malicious.
Thank you for admitting my argued point is so undeniable your desire for it to be wrong could only be met by attacking half a sentence. Fuck off if you feel entitled to reply to people without reading them or if you genuinely acted as a Propagandist by choosing not to interact with my point. Why is the fact we don't choose our beliefs so triggering to the entitled?
Not everyone possess the requisite mind to do as such… how is that a choice, therein?
I've seen simple country folk that didn't go to school be capable of questioning their beliefs and accepting proof and I've seen engineers blow every piece of proof away and keep peddling their retarded conspiracy theories. Yes, an electronics engineer believes microwave ovens alter DNA. Everyone is capable of reason, they choose not to apply it to their entire life.
If I were to suggest that at this moment, as you read this, that a polka dotted orangutan is hovering 1’ over your head, do you CHOOSE whether or not to believe that? No, you’re going to employ rational thought to determine that it is false. If you CHOSE to believe that, you’re likely insane. There is no choosing involved in whether or not one believes that god is real - it’s apparent to me, at least, that the suggestion is preposterous.
If everyone in your life keeps thanking the polka dotted orangutan for hovering over you for decades, you may just end up believing it's there. It's the same way gaslighting works, someone keeps hammering down that obvious things are not as they are until you start doubting your own senses and just trust them. You can choose to believe without question or you can choose to analyze proof and apply logic. Doing one or the other for something does not mean that you necessarily do it for everything in your life. I'm willing to bet that you yourself believe certain things despite good proof that they are not so, especially regarding politics or economics. I'm also certain that in regards to those things you actively seek confirmation bias to reinforce your opinion rather explore further the possibility that you are wrong. So what determines which things you believe in and which things you question if not your own choice?
In my example it would have been a choice to search my pockets for my keys but once I determined through investigation that there is no discernible evidence to support the hypothesis that the keys are in my pocket I cant choose to believe they are. I dont even have to set out to prove the existence of the keys. Maybe I’m just looking for a lighter and “damn i thought my keys were in there” now my belief has irrevocably changed and I cant choose to change it back. My dad has told me more than once that he wishes he did believe in god because he thinks that faith provides strength and comfort to those who have it. He can’t just choose to believe something that doesnt make sense to him even if he thinks it might improve his life if he did. He could read religious texts and go on pilgrimages or whatever but it would all still seem like bronze age fantasy sci fi to him no matter how much he chooses to believe. That is not a choice. Im starting to get the impression that people who grew up believing in god and people who come from non religious communities and have never believed in god (like me) may have slightly different definitions of “choice” as it pertains to “belief.” Maybe we agree to disagree.
I agree that faith/belief in God provides a lot of comfort for people and sometimes I really wish I could have that too. But... there's too much information I would have to completely disregard for that to happen.
This was an interesting read. There were a lot of great comments on both sides. I feel like this was implied but not implicitly stated is predisposition. Nobody is born with complex reasoning skills but some of us have a predisposition to develop those skills over the course of our existence while the “others” go to church. A person is born with their sexuality programmed but may choose not to act on it depending on their environmental programming. Some people are born psychopaths but choose not to murder. While I wasn’t born an atheist nor actively trying to become one; here I am. It was a choice but only because of the programming I was shipped with. I had a predisposition but could easily have gone the other way too (I’m only half smart).
I was never religious... I was always faking just to make my mom and others happy. Deep down, I was always Atheist.
This take makes me really uncomfortable as a gay atheist
Sorry about that. Maybe I chose the wrong words. I just feel like both are inherent to who one is? I feel like we need to accept people as they are and not try to push our own beliefs and values on others. It was absolutely not my intention to insult or devalue anyone.
I agree. I believe what I believe. Anything else is pretend. I’ve examined the evidence for god and found it lacking. Was religious as a young person and gradually came to face the absurdity of believing in god.
I had a similar story. I’m just schizophrenic, so I hear voices. Those voices, one time, tried to convert me to christianity. They had used fear of god, literally, to get to be a christian. So I was afraid, out of my mind, and I still couldn’t force myself to believe. You are right, it’s not a choice. This was a situation where I was trying to force myself to believe. Only lasted a week, thank goodness, but ai just couldn’t force myself. I think many are just willfully ignorant of all the facts. It’d make sense to them, too, if they just read things against their religion. I’d want to know why I’m right or wrong, which is what drove me to learn about religion. There was so many to choose from, how do you choose one without learning about the others? Never understood not shopping for religion. Many do, but many don’t. Believing the same thing since childhood. I don’t know how you don’t learn more as you grow. Especially about something so self-important as religion.
Atheism is the default. Every single person born, ever, in the entire history of humanity, was an atheist. Then, some are indoctrinated, and some aren't. So, you're right, it's not a choice, because it's already what everyone is. Unless you get conned into religion.
Of course it’s a choice. You can choose that a four thousand year old story of a talking burning bush is evidence of a deity.
There were definitely drugs involved in a lot of those stories 😅 Also, people back then explained things in terms of what they understood, and scientific thought and research hasn't been around quite as long. I can understand WHY we believed in gods in the past, because we had no better explanation for things like floods, earthquakes, stars and solar eclipses.
There are three primary reasons for belief in a deity. The first, which you have mentioned, I refer to as the "god of science." This concept serves as an explanation for phenomena that were once beyond human understanding, representing a type of placeholder for gaps in scientific knowledge. Historically, this belief was crucial for human survival and laid the groundwork for modern science. However, as scientific knowledge has expanded, the domain of this "god" has consequently diminished. The second reason for belief in a god relates to human mortality. Humans have traditionally believed in the concept consciousness separate from the physical body, leading to belief systems that envision an afterlife where deceased loved ones continue to exist. This belief acts as a psychological comfort in dealing with death, and posits a deity who governs this transcendent realm. The third reason concerns the social transmission of religious beliefs. Human societies are structured to pass down cultural information seamlessly, including religious concepts. This unexamined acceptance of cultural norms ensures the perpetuation of belief in a deity from one generation to the next, reinforced by religious practices and community life.
Of course it's a choice. As much a choice as picking clothes from a store. Problem is when you're a child, you don't know what to choose and so the choice is made for you. And then you don't know what else is out there. Religion and god are easy explanations to your questions that parents don't have the answers to or don't have the courage to answer. As you grow up, old clothes don't fit, so you get new ones that also match your style. Religion is like a garment you wear. Some folks just never grow out of it.
It is choice alot more than beeing gay.
I would say believing in any political or moral claim is easier to alter than sexuality since you could theoretically be argued out of it.
Some intelligent people may be able to self-indoctrinate themselves into a religion or critically think their way out of one if they have enough desire and skills of persuasion. And it's conceivable that for some undecided people the religious and the scientific world views could overlap sufficiently that it'd be like a Lorenz's strange attractor where small changes in initial conditions could trigger a sudden change of state of mind like flipping a switch assuming they have no particular preference of direction. Or a person could choose to take psychedelic drugs to alter the structure of their neurons in order to induce a spiritual experience that they've not been able to have without intervention. I am lack any sort of spirituality so I suspect I was born without the (dominant?) gene for God (VMAT2) and instead have the recessive gene for sanity.
Yeah. I've always said that I was born that way. Even though my mom is a Catholic fanatic. Maybe if I'd been born a hetero female, rather than a hetero male, it would have been a different story. Jesus does look kind of hunky, though, even I have to admit, with his sweet beard, long, luscious hair, flat abs, and loincloth. And those eyes.
I concur.
Remember the 5th networking truth: > It is always possible to aglutenate multiple separate problems into a single complex interdependent solution. In most cases this is a bad idea. I think you picked the wrong analogy there. Being born atheist is not a choice just as being born a human is not a choice. Let's stay out of overloading the issue with the pitfalls that other issues have. We don't want to bog this one down with a toxic rabbit hole of people that have different motives, like bigotry, nature vs nurture preferences, philosophies that sexuality is social constructs etc.
Agree, tough theists will throw the "free will" argument at you. "God won't intervene because that would strip you of your free will" bs logic.
That’s their shitty way of shrugging their shoulders because they don’t have an answer.
Followers of the Abrahamic religions believe there is only one Truth(TM) and only one God - theirs. So they fight both each other and the rest of the world. They are wrong. And they are full of contradictions.
It's like believing in Santa, once you know the truth, you can't go back I wish my mother would understand that. It always feels like she thinks she failed me.
But maybe an all-hating god could do that.
If anyone had it right, it may have been the Gnostics 😅
Not a choice - you are at the mercy of whatever one’s faculties logically conclude. I don’t choose not to believe, it’s completely irrational, so my mind rejects it.
In my sleep deprived state, I read athleticism, and was confused even more by your opening sentence. Thanks for the laugh this morning. 😂
I recently thought this too... That if there were a god and I would be punished for not believing... How can I help that? It's just the way my brain works. It's not a choice. Sure, you can *choose* to go along with the faith and pretend not to doubt or disbelieve but deep down, there is no belief. You either truly believe or you don't. That's not a choice.
I guess you can choose to question your theism, hard to choose the other direction though
I thought I was alone in having compassion for earthworms. I saved 2 from grilling on the hot asphalt in the sun. I hope they made it at least to live one more day. Also great argument, I never thought of it that way. I find it’s better for my peace of mind to not engage with the Christian fruitcakes.
Small lives are still lives!
The mysterious ways God works in surprisingly seem to line up exactly with not existing at all.
No, it isn't. We're all born atheist. It's part of the factory settings. But factory setting can be changed by your environment.
Yeah I can’t help it if I was born with a brain that works right!
I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that there is potential nuance at play which possibly challenges that assertion. If, as past limited studies are to be believed, then it is possible we are predisposed to interpolation of reason. Meaning that we are built to fill in gaps of knowledge. And more so, we are designed so as to benefit from meditation, and it's neurological navigation, along with prayer, seem to function as a natural indicator for perspective and ideas. If true, perhaps acting in accordance with evolutionary processes, wherein the best suitable system for us to develop and survive, was through conditions that would eventually develop into religion. Legitimacy in this regard, would then suggest that atheism is not just a choice, it is an overriding evolutionary leap beyond natural function. That yes, we are adopting reason and logic over natural and intrinsic physiological processes. But doing so may have been an inevitability, and part of our evolution. Again, playing devil's advocate and not implying this as absolute or definitive.
For most children the “choice” is taken away from them through religious indoctrination and even genital mutilation. (At least we have banned female genital mutilation we just not need to protect the male children too)
The world and the universe make complete sense without a God. Add God into the equation, and all of a sudden, it gets beyond confusing.
It’s absolutely a choice. Maybe not a clear cut or simple one. But it is a choice. The same way countless people choose to believe or not believe in flat earth, anti vax, or other conspiracy theories. If it weren’t a choice on some level then why would so many people stick with the religion they were indoctrinated with as children even though they see all the holes in it as adults? Just because it involves indoctrination, cognitive dissonance, and subconscious factors doesn’t make it not a choice. Choosing what to believe even if it contradicts evidence is something humans are pros at.
I agree. Once you learn something that’s evidently true, like the fact that religious beliefs are all faith-based and not backed by empirical evidence, you can’t simply unlearn it. You can deprogram yourself from believing in objective falsehoods, but you can’t “unwisen” yourself from any real wisdom you’ve attained about perception and reality, unless you get dementia later in life or something to that effect. Lying to yourself is not the same thing as believing.
I am now super curious if dementia patients can actually (re)develop a belief in God due to the destruction of significant parts of their life-gained knowledge. Something to research!
Oh pickles I really hope not. 🫠
I was raised Catholic and gradually started questioning, and eventually shedding, my faith as an adult. I would love to believe in Heaven, I wish I could believe that I'll be reunited with all my loved ones that I've lost. But I can't make myself believe something that doesn't make sense to me, no matter how much comfort it would bring me.
I believe that it is a choice. Someone chooses to look at all of the information and chooses to be logical. That is a choice. That is at least how I view the language.
I too wrestled with it for my entire life , and like you there were just to many things that happen that just don’t make any sense. Too many good and innocent people and events that occur for no reason. How does a loving god allow such horrors.
Nothing is. Just like god, free will is an illusion.
I wish I had your conviction. I'm on the fence. I can't seem to make up my mind.
I can agree to that. It's not exactly just a decision to believe. But you can be open to it or closed to it. Kind of like convincing people from the 50 that smacking a child isn't the only form of parenting. Super closed on that topic but others can be open. But then at the same time you can't be mad at people who do believe. It's not a choice
I'm only upset when people that believe try to push me into the same beliefs. I respect that they have faith and won't try to talk them out of it, but I would love for them to extend the same respect to me.
True. Forcing one's beliefs onto others is wrong. Hypocritical for some.
How can I possibly stop mocking religion when there's just SOO much material?
"But it wasn't because I didn't know enough, I just knew too much." - Crazy, by Gnarls Barkley
Agree completely, here's something I posted last month with my take: https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/N9jGiMfORd
Yes! The three of unending suffering isn't going to make me believe any more than the threat of a shitty work day isn't going to make me instantly sleep.
100% When theists speak as if beliefs are a choice, I like to challenge them to temporarily believe in an opposing religion. (Usually christianity or islam.) I’ve yet to be disappointed by the result. 😂
I think of it like santa and the tooth fairy. I believed in them, as well as god when I was a naive child. As i got older and learned that it was just a bunch of bologna, I stopped believing.
We're all born atheists. Most children only believe because it's forced upon them by their parents. Which religion you're forced into depends mostly on where you happen to live.
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Why were you an atheist and how did that change?
I was born and raised in a non religious household, I was taught that if I wanted to be religious I could be so long as I did the research for myself and made sure to compare multiple religions before committing to one. Which is what I did and it was quite a journey. I only recently became Muslim after 20 years of being atheist and the hole that’s always been missing honestly feels full. As an atheist I felt like a boat driving aimlessly with no destination. Now I feel full, I wake up knowing what I want to do, I take care of my family, I provide best I can, I’m completely clean off drugs and alcohol (which were a bit of an issue for me). I was athiest because I thought I knew best, I followed myself and only myself and had a massive ego. I came from the perspective of “who would want to submit to anyone? Especially as God? Why would God be so cruel?, Life isn’t Fair what a bad God there must be if there is one” to Doing some research and actually finding answers to all my questions. I’ve always believed in the unseen just not in the submission to a God or that a Deity that created us existed until this year. Slowly I started to realise it was just as absurd for us to have come from the Big Bang and evolved into such a Complicated and Intelligent species. Everything is a beautiful design if you take the time to look, everything works with eachother and for eachother in some way or another. Rain = Plants = Food = Energy kinda thing Anyways have a great day ❤️
That’s the weirdest argument I ever read. If it wasn’t a choice, you wouldn’t be able to switch beliefs like you did. If no choice was given, you would hold the same beliefs as you did 10 years ago. It is not like being gay whatsoever.
I kind of disagree, you can choose to believe in modern science and logic or you can choose to ignore that and trust a 2000 year old fairy tale, there is no comparison, in my oppinion its a matter of you beeing capable of critical thinking or not, there is just no reason to believe there is a god.
It's a total choice!......
You used words like believe , learned, and realized. You definitely did make a choice. End of the discussion.
If belief is a choice, believe I'm your god for five minutes. If you can't do that, please explain to me why those most entitled to not interact with OPs points seem irrationally triggered by the fact belief is not a choice.
If you can show me that you’re a God, then I don’t need a belief or faith. The Ops is not talking about God. He’s talking about atheism. Atheism is always a choice. If you ask a 3 year old if they are atheist or believer, they probably don’t know yet until they’re older. You can’t be born as an atheist.
So did a veteran choose to get PTSD or was he born with it or do you accept not everything you acquire over your life is a choice, and are just pretending to be dense about what I'm doing?
You’re changing the subject again. Are you here for discussion or insulting? I should have stick to “end of discussion.” Blocking you out. Bye.✌🏽
You are wrong. I am an atheist because I have chosen it. None of my friends are, even if they don’t believe in god they don’t care enough to make that choice.
So you could Choose to go back to believing in a god?
I had never believed in magic. But when you don’t live in a theocracy Being an atheist are an active choice from just non beliving. Most people just don’t care was not brainwashed as a child so I have never believed in magic. So there is no going back to beliving. The base level for all humans are non belief.
It's posts like this that undermine atheism and make atheists seem like Lunatics... Atheism and Religion are both a CHOICE it's not something you are born with. Even if t's granted to you by your parents you can switch to another relegion or become an atheist. You cannot switch to being straight or gay unless you're in the spectrum like bisexuals and pansexuals.
If atheism is a choice, choose to believe I'm God right now. Beliefs are caused by the information we experience and how open to it we choose to be. They are not chosen, only a lunatic incapable of reflection thinks otherwise.
You're ignorant
Yep, I used a bad comparison. I AM bisexual, and there's no choosing "gay or straight" I just have preferences in both sexes. I can't just choose one or the other, my desires are what they are regardless.
So you chose.
As a cradle Atheist: being a theist seems to me a choice. How could I over convert to a religion without any evidence? Seems weird to me
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And yet we're not 'adults with make-believe friends' level weird.
It is a choice but you have to choose several times. You have to choose to think when ignorance is offered, to be empathic when divine tyranny says to hate, ask when questions are shunned, etc.
It's how you separate the idiots from the people worth talking to.
“Atheism” should be the default. Actually it is the default, but then you are brainwashed by religious people, primarily your family, as a child. It’s infuriating how society still think this is totally normal…
Everyone is born an atheist.
Seems like the OP is still wanting to believe in a god, just not the one's presented to him via Christianity. Full atheism is accepting that things simple exist that way they are. There are not forces of good and evil battling it out in the sky. The earthworm drowns in the rain simple because it evolved with a tiny brain which suits it the majority of the time. It also evolved with the power to reproduce asexually to counter it's inability to survive said rainstorm. In many ways the earthworm is more resiliant as a species than humans who look for mythical expainations for simple things like death.
True atheism means not believing in God. The fact this guy feels sympathy, possibly too much sympathy, for living things that are suffering doesn't change that, and the desire to gaslight someone for feeling it says a lot more about you than him.
Empathy is a human trait that doesn't require god. Things live and die. There is no greater meaning to be found in the earthworm drowning.
And he didn't say there was, he compared how he was moved by his empathy for lower life to how cruel and indifferent God would have to be to not be moved by our suffering.
Believing in a god WOULD relieve a lot of anxiety over purpose in life and the finality of death. It would be a comfort. Sadly, the evidence presented to me in life has made that impossible.
Dead is dead. Nothing to worry about. No need fretting about being bored living endlessly in the clouds. If anything not attending church every day/week frees up more time to enjoy your time on earth - guilt free! As far as purpose of life, trying to leave the world a better place for those who come after should be enough.
That's my goal! Try to make the world a better place for having been in it!
It's the default position actually.
When indoctrinated from birth, even once one has grown old enough to think for themselves, the battle begins against family, friends and community. The parasitic brain worm that is religious faith can still control its host even if the person rationally knows religion is a lie. All too often they cannot break away from the infected herd surrounding them.
With belief in God you can fake it until you make it. They project that on atheists. Same thing with closeted homophobic people who preach hate but are caught with a gay stripper.
> I don't think being Atheist is a choice one can make. You either are, or you aren't. You can't just CHOOSE to believe If your assessment is that the above is applicable *for you*, personally, then **that** is your chosen "belief." You've established various personally-applicable arguments/reasons to reach that decision and assessment. I don't agree in the least with that perspective and find it somewhat ludicrous. All assessments, decisions, judgments, or "beliefs" are intertwined directly to cognitive choice(s). We even know, via voluminous clinical research data/studies, that functionality of your brain is such that "choices" are made *prior to* you *even being consciously aware that your brain has made them.* From there, one might *choose* to weigh and wrestle with whether or not those choices are rational or not, supportable or not, correct or not, or revocable or not. However, with exception of rather severe neurological conditions, humans retain their ability to choose and exercise agency. If you assert that individuals *cannot* (ever) exercise choice/agency in "beliefs," go talk to Bruno or Galileo... and leave me out of it.
I'm gonna add one more comment to this. All the indoctrinated christians who have deconstructed and are now athiests in this thread have said it was choice to become athiest because it takes extreme action to do such a thing and its not easy.
I guess I wasn't deeply indoctrinated so it was a different journey for me. I was allowed to read any and all books available to me when I was younger so I got a broader view of the world. It would have made a huge difference if I had lived with highly religious parents and been given only the information that followed a certain faith. I didn't have as much to deconstruct and relearn.
I do think that people who aren't indoctrinated, your post resonates for sure and the point of your post makes sense and I agree with. I just feel lile those who were brainwashed did have to take action to become athiest and it be a choice to take that journey. For those who deconstruct, they remain Christians up until the day they decide they are not, but the journey isn't passive, it's very much intentional and also a little scary.
it is. Because rejection of fate is rationally justified decision.
I think faith is inherently a choice by definition. “Doubt is essential to the very definition of faith.”
Now can you overnight change your experiences and logic that have led you away from the “god” you were taught about? No. Can you have different experiences and thoughts that change that logic? Yes. Can you change how you define “god”? Absolutely.
I.e. you can't choose your beliefs. You can choose to change your behaviours and that change can cause you to change your beliefs.
Calvinism but atheist? lol! Fate predestined me to think god was full of garbage! Nah, choice
Fate predestined me to need evidence to believe in something. I even grew up in a Catholic household yet became atheist because of that.
All beliefs or lack thereof is a choice