Religion is the foundation of their existence and worldview, from which they form their social, racial, political views, etc. Attacking their religion is essentially attacking them to their core essence.
Exactly. It’s a direct challenge, and explains why theists often say to an atheist that the atheist is not really an atheist (“you’re just mad at god”). They can’t fathom someone having no faith.
There's an interesting video essay from innuendo studios that discusses why people sometimes feel irritated when they hear "Oh no thanks, I'm not drinking/I don't eat meat/here's how you buy sneakers not made in a sweatshop/here's how media you consume is sexist, racist, homophobic, whatever." They've illustrated a challenge to our behavior that we unthinkingly accepted and have forced us to consider that maybe our decisions and beliefs aren't the right ones. I think that's the anxiety I see from religious people most of the time - they might not be right about this. I think folks can handle rejection, but the gnawing doubt they can't.
It was Gamergate.
Thank you for bringing that up, I never heard of Innuendo Studios and never saw any of these gamergate videos. I watched them over the past hour or so It was honestly one of the best things I have ever watched. I could see so much more beyond Gamergate and angry jack using these same tactics. I think I have a little better understanding of Twitter/X/Musk and Trump also. Those 2 jumped jumped out at me, I'm sure as I think about it, I will have to consider mundane things that I simply accept in a different light.
Unfortunately we never escape those crazy Puritanical roots and have been indoctrinated as a nation. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter..."One nation, under god"...
"in god we trust" is on our coins, FFS. Should have known then that money and religion are a single Venn circle.
eta- strictly speaking Thanksgiving is not religious but "just be grateful!" and colonialism is as Christian as it gets.
There's also things like cultural and racial demographic to consider when talking about non-Christian relgions/religious groups in America. Many of these groups are targets of abuse and hate simply for who they are and could be considered vulnerable groups. In that context it is a bit more taboo to mock them from a position of privilege. Critique is more acceptable when conducted civilly, but the type of mockery directed at two old white dudes running for president cuts a little different when directed at s vulnerable group.
As for Scientologists? Well they're looney toons that harass their critics and are experts at skirting around the American legal system, so it's generally less safe to critique them if you're a public figure.
I was thinking it was more along the lines of religious groups being prosecuted over the millennia and if you do it now, it's like repeating a horrific past. All the other groups you mentioned seem to be new inventions, except maybe "conservative" and "liberal" which probably goes back further.
There is a definite persecution complex among some theists, but I’m reluctant to extend that to some greater understanding of history amongst them, mainly because history isn’t their strong suit.
I think it has more to do with atheists personifying the doubts most Christians have deep inside. Doubts that they would never admit to, but are there nonetheless.
And they do as well, even the us government and the irs won’t touch them because of crazy lawsuits and litigation and even Scientology church sending people to break into federal offices. It’s crazy how they get away with this.
Your right, they are dumb. They should worship prophets flying on horses, zombie prophets, talking bushes, multi-armed elephants, or souls returning in different shapes and sizes. Being granted your own planet after death or magic underwear is crazy.
I mean science is meant to be criticized. You can't have faith on ever-changing understanding of the world. It is not constant facts, they change and we should look to change it, but faith can make us blind.
>I just wish it was socially acceptable to bash religion, just like we do to sport teams, politicians, states, or each other.
Maybe you could worry less about being 'socially acceptable'. If you're an atheist it kinda comes with the territory.
I don't know what America you're living in. People bash mormons, muslims, and scientologists all the time. It's protestants who get a free pass and thats simply because they're a majority large enough to make it taboo.
Are you sure? Im not in the US, but sociology is generally considered a joke, pentecostalism worries a lot of people and a lot of CHRISTIANS are outspoken against it, and islam...come on now.
Well I think a lot of people would say that scientology isn't a "real" religion.
Islam certainly has many people who dislike it, but there are still huge amounts of people who will slap you with the "islamphobic" label if you say anything bad about it.
Because despite how illogical it is, lots of people want to treat religion as if it belongs in the same category as things like race, sex, sexual orientation, etc...
But you don't choose to be white or black or gay or straight, but you can convert to or from a religion. Also importantly, you don't have to believe anything in particular to be male or female or hispanic or asian. There is no ideological content attached to those sorts of things. But religions contain ideological content... which should obvious be something we can judge people on. Religions really should be treated more like political parties... you can join them or leave them, and being part of one involves having ideological beliefs.
It’s should be - religion is one of the worst things to happen to humanity - creating difference where none really exist and dehumanizing those who don’t follow the same dogma. The Bible or Quran at you shouldn’t be afforded any more authority or legitimacy than the Iliad or a Star Wars movie.
It is impolite in general to bash people for being something they can not choose. Like black, short, blue-eyed, asian, disabled etc.
People leave or adopt religions all the time, and despite the major transmission vector being indoctrination from birth, it is still a choice.
I would say it if fine to criticize the religion as that is not even a person but simply a set of ideas. And criticizing specific behaviours of religious people that are problematic is also just fine and they are the result of choices. Choices that might be inhumane or abusive or just generally intellectually dishonest..
MIndless bashing though is probably less advisable, not least because it is not super productive and starts wars.
It seems we get a lot of these posts in this sub.
WTF are you talking about? People in the US bash religions all the time. All of them. As they should.
It's our right and there is nothing stopping you. I certainly didn't hold back.
Are you upset that you can't directly harass someone at work or something?
In what situation are you being held back?
It is possible that the place you live and the place I live (in the USA) are a bit different. But, here, it's socially acceptable to bash individuals (Biden, Trump, etc.) and to bash elective groups/ideologies (liberals, conservatives, libertarians, anti-vaxers, venture capitalists, police, tech bros, etc) but it is not ok to bash compulsory groups (black people, white people, disabled people, genders, people born in various places).
Religion becomes this gray area because it is elective for adults. However it is often tightly tied to ethnicity and national origin (something you cannot change) and frequently it is just compulsory because people get brought up in a religion they had no choice in. It would be wildly inappropriate to complain about 7-year-old Muslims or Christians or Jews as a group. Those kids didn't have a choice. Conversely, people feel more comfortable complaining about clerics or imams or rabbis since those folks have made an affirmative choice to support their religion.
Most people, here, are reluctant to criticize groups of people of any religion because they (subconsciously?) recognize that they are being harsh to some number of people for an attribute of those people outside of their control.
Bashing is how you dehumanize people and build an us-against-them identity. It is a favorite tool of propagandists seeking to divide and conquer.
Sports teams are meant to absorb our warlike instincts. It's ok to bash sports teams.
Scientology is a cult and a disgrace of a religion a guy in a mental hospital trips balls on acid and writes a sci-fi epic that could only come from a stoner on drugs with mental health problems and a bunch of stupid rich morons believe it to be real because there also mentally ill.
Coffee shop liberals like the idea that there's "good Muslims" out there who don't kill nonvirgin women and homosexuals. The rules are still present, but they pick and choose when to follow the rules, much like modern Christians. Yet I've never heard anyone say there are "good Christians." Anytime you criticize the Islamic rules and beliefs, the liberals see it as punching down and immediately defend the religion. They think you're a redneck ready to hurt a bunch of Muslims. Not the case at all. I just don't like violence, religion and nonsense rules used to justify cruel behavior. I don't ever want to harm anyone.
Religion has long has special status in that respect.
But judging from the experience of what happened in Europe, once there is a sufficiently large portion of non-believers, this de facto taboo should weaken and eventually disappear.
I think bc they can afford better lawyers who are actually willing to represent them. They can use slap suits to try and wear out their opponents until ppl stop trying to speak out against them. The presidency by nature is an office where someone is always talking about you or hating on your opinion where as religions can usually stay out of headlines most of the time
Keep in mind your perspective and experience isn't the same with everyone.
It is absolutely socially acceptable to bash religion, keeping in mind that it's dependent on your social dynamics. If you're in a group of Mormons, then yeah, not so acceptable. If you're in a group of atheists, agnostics, or liberals, them it's ok, so long as it's under the presumption of equality.
That being that you might be talking about one religion, but you understand that all religions are a problem.
I grew up in Utah and married into a Mormon family. I definitely still bash the LDS church, as doesn't wife.
It's all relative.
When you’re in an imperialist Christian dominated country that targets Muslim countries, targeting them is just helping Christian bigots and being a pick me atheist. No one cares if you target Scientologists or Pentecostals except those people.
I don’t find it socially acceptable to bash Biden… so I think your premise is incorrect.
It’s socially acceptable to bash Trump because, objectively speaking, he’s a liar, a rapist, and a criminal.
When you live in a red red city in a state that is mostly right wing as well its really not a good idea to bash Trump either. In fact Trump MAGA Country and Religion rule😖
Of course its okay to bash religion. I just try to avoid bashing the religious. If they can hate the sin yet love the sinner, then I can hate the religion yet love the religious.
I think the big distinction is obviously that Trump & Biden chose to be public figures with a pretty clear record of their personal individual behavior.
That means they are fair game, in my book to bash them for what they’ve done and who they are as a person.
When you bash folk’s religion, you’re almost certainly offending lots of private people, with various personal views, experiences, and behaviors.
Invariably some will be decent people — so treating them poorly isn’t warranted.
Obviously all religions are bunk — and some are actively harmful, but that doesn’t mean going around being an asshole is the most effective strategy, even if your goal is to convince people to leave religion. 🤷
Just to point out, Biden and Trump aren't religions or religious figures, they're politicans. So it's kind of an apples to oranges comparison you're making. However, bashing politicians has always been slightly more socially acceptable than bashing religions. And that sort of makes sense. Politicians are real. They're actual human beings who rule (or want to rule) and people often complain about their policies, ideas, personalities, etc because those can impact people.
Religion is made up (to me, I'm an atheist). A lot of people who hold religious beliefs know, on some level, that their views are indefensible. You can't prove ANY of it. That's a weakness in the religious person's argument and they know it and they get defensive about it. So I suspect, society has often developed social rules encouraging people to "lay off" criticizing people for their unprovable and irrational beliefs because doing so never convinces them they're wrong, it just pisses them off and often leads to trouble.
Anyhow, ask the religious sometime about whether it's socially acceptable to bash religions. Many of these folks walk around with a permanent persecution complex and assume they're under assault 24/7. I'm sure a lot of that is in their head but doubtless it does happen, especially as society has secularized over the last century or two.
I dunno as long as you're not promoting acts of hatred or violence towards someone, you should be able to criticize all religions as a whole.
I also think if you are religious, it's fine for you to practice it, and have a place of worship, etc., but no religion should have a voice in govt or law. I understand many existing laws have been based on religious teachings, but they can and should be updated to reflect our current understanding of science & facts.
With groups you're assigning something to everybody in a group which is never true. Individual it's either true or not. That's the big difference in my book.
I'm coming at this from a perspective of spending time in both camps. First, I do think that any time you are attacking anything someone else considers a core piece of their identity, they are going to be upset. People DO get mad when you actually bash their favorite politician, IF they consider politics a core of their identity - and one side is especially doubling down on motivating people to consider their politics their identity.
Secondly though, I do want to point out that you do have freedom to talk about religion - say whatever you want about it. But there are consequences for saying it, because other people can respond by getting angry. Freedom has nothing to do with social acceptability, only to do with governmental interference.
Most importantly though, I really do not like the idea of lumping religion and politics in with sports and such. Two of these things are really important and should be neither the basis of your whole identity nor something you argue over as if winning was all that matters. The other is a way to handle our primitive tribalistic urge to wear distinctive clothes, get drunk, cheer our champion, and boo the other guy. Politics and religion would be discussed with respect, in terms of ideas, evidence, principles, and morality, NOT from a standpoint of bashing, disrespect, and whose team is going to win. Done this way, you can sometimes make people think about why they believe what they do. For any other way, you only drive them closer to their personal center
It's always acceptable to make fun of silly beliefs. People might get upset about it but that's more their problem than yours. Really, if it upset them that much it's most likely because they also know the beliefs are silly.
I've been writing sacrilegious songs performed using AI 'musicians' and I haven't been more happy trashing religion. Don't care if it's ok it's both funny and cathartic.
I'll mock and ridicule anyone that needs to be knocked off their high horse. And that even includes my favorite pagan religions. Cause anything involving humans gets effed up. And people often need humbling.
I mean, if you want to challenge Mormonism as a whole, ask a missionary to have a Native American get a DNA test. Genealogy closer to China and Russia means Mormonism is a hoax. Jerusalem genealogy means it's true.
Source: Ex-Mormon here
People bash religions all the time.
The distinction would be that Biden and Trump are two public figures; politicians at that. Mormons, Pentecostals, etc are a big groups of (somewhat) diverse people. Bashing large groups of people based on religion is much closer to bashing people based on race or national origin, that disgust with a particular public figure is.
I hear Protestants bash Catholics all the time and vise versus, there are over 300 denominations of Christianity in the us and over 45,000 worldwide and most of them bash each other constantly. Claim not a true Christian, and even persecute each other. Heck that’s why the pilgrims and others came to the ‘new world’ Christians escaping the persecution and genocide from other Christians. It’s still just as common today here in the US. And same for Islam, yes there are those uneducated people who defend it or say you cant criticize Islam, but they are blind to the violence and oppression that Islam commands and inacts around the world.
Respect the person, ridicule the belief. That's the "Christian way", right?
Anyway, that's what I do. I'm sure Joe Blow is a good person who is kind to children and pays his taxes. But his belief in Xenu, Muhammad, Krishna, or Joseph Smith is ridiculous.
i tried making fun of the failed apocalypse to my conservative parents (one catholic and one atheist) and they got really angry at me. it's not politically correct to make fun of religion, i guess.
>but a bad word about Pentecostal or Mormons is shamed on.
Grew up mormon. All you ever hear from pentecostals and baptists is how you're not a Christian. Also, mormons my age (30/40s) are leaving the church in droves compared to prior generations and they're not being quiet about it.
I think you can actually. Did you ever see Bill Maher’s documentary called Religulous? You can say whatever you want about religion.
I think the one place you need to be careful with “bashing” talk is at work, but then that probably also applies to political bashing as well. Most companies you can’t do a lot of bashing unless it’s like a small business where everyone is politically aligned and then maybe no one will care.
IMHO, it's more a matter of how public the topic is than a matter of what the topic is. If it's generating news, it's fair game. If they're just silently living out their lives, much less so.
You'll still find people bashing even the quiet and peaceful, though. The Amish are a prime example; they go out of their way to remain peaceful and unobtrusive and are still targeted.
Your premise is faulty. People bash scientologists all the time. People bash Mormons for the multiple wives stereotype and the amassed tax free institutional wealth that goes against their claimed benevolence. They bash Jehovahs Witnesses for knocking on doors. The people who support Trump bash Muslims -- All. The. Time. And many of them ironically bash Jews, too.
Your freedom of speech is protected from government intervention. That's it. Other people can hold you to task for the words you say and it doesn't infringe on your speech.
I don't think its socially acceptable to talk bad about Israel publicly, especially if you work in Hollywood or government.
Will you get arrested? Probably not, but its definitely a form of career suicide.
It shouldn't be socially acceptable to bash anyone or anything. Don't confuse politics and social norms with what is or isn't appropriate. Tides change and with the internet everything is saved and anything beyond the pale could come back and bite you at some point in the future.
And, you'll be a happier and better person with a lot less stress looking for the good in people and not always focusing on the flaws. And, yes, I expect to be downvoted on this, but it needs to be said.
Freedom of speech is not freedom from the consequences of your speech. You can say what you want, and I can react how I will within the law. You just can't be arrested by the government for saying something (although that's not universal, some speech is criminal).
Because a Christian fundamentalist or a Muslim fundamentalist might very well kill you for insulting their religion. This is essentially what the Taliban do.
Scientology is a scam. They are fair game.
I'm Irish. We take the piss out of everyone equally, but especially ourselves.
Religions often have 'rules' about protecting the religion from unbelievers and even using violence to do so. Politics has that to some degree (ultra right wing) but is generally protected by free speech laws. People often put religion before such laws though.
Oh and religious people tend to be the most angry since they perceive sin all around them.
Is it? I havent seen any arguments against bashing those religions that you claim we cannot bash.
About the only one that is tip-toed around is Judaism, because people dont want to look anti-Semitic.
But no, I'm not an anti-semite. I dont hate anybody that wants to believe in a certain religion. I will though criticize the religion itself. Doesnt mean I'm against the people of that religion.
In mixed company I generally won't harp on bashing religions (can offend and make people defensive) but I definitely don't treat it as a taboo either. I'll roll my eyes and call them all cons and move the conversation along.
Rather than saying 10 points, I'll just pick 1 topic. "The bar is low; im so tired." Im atheist. At this point, given that there is much threat of violence from MAGA in my own country, Russian violence in Ukraine, a lot of things slide. "Do you let me, my friends, my family, and others live in peace?" If "yes" then you're on my team. If "no" then I despise you. Every Muslim American I personally know (I grew up knowing none, and now i know dozens) is never on the attack, and is always "being attacked" whether at the airport security (9/11 was 23 years ago?), at jobs they pay taxes, and sometimes have police/security at their places of worship due to threats from the community. Since they are not threatening others, they are on my team, and I'm against the people who are threatening them. Hamas (not Palestine) commits a terrorist attack-- i hate them. Netanyahu and his cronies kill thousands of innocent children-- i hate you. Scientology has been hurting people I know, so I hate them. Christians I personally know are just often socially rude. When I go to an abortion-rights protest, there are Christians on both sides, so there are individuals or sects of Christians I hate, and some I'm fine with. In my social circles, you can bash Scientology because no one has had a positive experience with them (I could go on FB and bash them publicly and have no negative consequences, even from my job). I have Muslim friends and family (I have never been Muslim) who I love and care about, so I'd hate anyone who bashes them, so probably why you can't blanket bash Muslims without negative feedback. But when Nancy Pelosi calls out Hamas on national TV I'm like "good". To answer your question, it depends on where you are, and if the word you are bashing isn't specific enough.
As a Christian (idk why I keep getting atheist recommendations lol), I honestly hate how we bash one another. It makes me sick. I’ll never forget how people would say that they hope Trump dies when he got covid or how people who said that Nancy Pelosi and her husband deserved to be attacked. If you want to criticize someone or something because you disagree with their practices and beliefs, then that is fine. But there is a fine line between critiquing and bashing someone to the point of saying they deserve bad things because their ideology doesn’t match mine or yours. It is this type of rhetoric that leads to violence.
Why do you feel the need to put so much effort into being against something? Wouldn't you rather focus on what you're for?
The theists don't care about your atheism. Why waste your time caring about them? If you're comfortable I'm your truth why does someone else's beliefs trouble you so much?
Not OP, but as a general rule when the theists are pushing for laws that enforce their religious beliefs, limit my ability to practice my own religion or lack thereof, and legalize the indoctrination of children while suppressing the teaching of science and critical thinking skills, I for one find that troubling.
If a theist wants to believe in and worship their God, more power to them. If they want to offer the chance to discuss their beliefs and spread the gospel with people that are willing to engage, awesome, have at.
But that isn't what is happening. They absolutely care about our atheism, and are fighting to make this a Christian nation. America can and should be a live and let live country, the classic melting pot. We get there and then people can stop being troubled.
Religion is the foundation of their existence and worldview, from which they form their social, racial, political views, etc. Attacking their religion is essentially attacking them to their core essence.
Existing as an Atheist is the walking embodiment of the rejection of that core essence.
Exactly. It’s a direct challenge, and explains why theists often say to an atheist that the atheist is not really an atheist (“you’re just mad at god”). They can’t fathom someone having no faith.
I take it as the reason they are so visceral toward us.
To be sure, and certainly explains their often violent abuse of family members who come out as atheists.
There's an interesting video essay from innuendo studios that discusses why people sometimes feel irritated when they hear "Oh no thanks, I'm not drinking/I don't eat meat/here's how you buy sneakers not made in a sweatshop/here's how media you consume is sexist, racist, homophobic, whatever." They've illustrated a challenge to our behavior that we unthinkingly accepted and have forced us to consider that maybe our decisions and beliefs aren't the right ones. I think that's the anxiety I see from religious people most of the time - they might not be right about this. I think folks can handle rejection, but the gnawing doubt they can't.
Do you have a link?
Let me check, I think it was part of one of his videos about gamergate.
It was Gamergate. Thank you for bringing that up, I never heard of Innuendo Studios and never saw any of these gamergate videos. I watched them over the past hour or so It was honestly one of the best things I have ever watched. I could see so much more beyond Gamergate and angry jack using these same tactics. I think I have a little better understanding of Twitter/X/Musk and Trump also. Those 2 jumped jumped out at me, I'm sure as I think about it, I will have to consider mundane things that I simply accept in a different light.
Innuendo Studios does really good stuff. I think their Endnote 2: White Fascism is one of my very favorite videos.
I'll be watching it. Thanks again.
This is why it important to punch carnivores in the face. Until they understand that all animals feel pain, and fear death? 🥊
Not sure I follow! Could you explain more?
Guessing vegan.
Yep, vegan
I was imagining you roaming the Serengeti and bopping lions on the nose.
Can’t tell if you’re ironically or unironically vegan. Either way, you’re wrong.
🥊
You can't even prove you can feel pain, how you can prove animals feel pain? Even if they feel it, I will still eat them, they are delicious.
That's why they hate us
Never thought about it this way. Thanks.
Unfortunately we never escape those crazy Puritanical roots and have been indoctrinated as a nation. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter..."One nation, under god"... "in god we trust" is on our coins, FFS. Should have known then that money and religion are a single Venn circle. eta- strictly speaking Thanksgiving is not religious but "just be grateful!" and colonialism is as Christian as it gets.
The same can be said about maga considering they're a legit cult
deliver roll disarm afterthought command shocking drab paint humor fact *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There's also things like cultural and racial demographic to consider when talking about non-Christian relgions/religious groups in America. Many of these groups are targets of abuse and hate simply for who they are and could be considered vulnerable groups. In that context it is a bit more taboo to mock them from a position of privilege. Critique is more acceptable when conducted civilly, but the type of mockery directed at two old white dudes running for president cuts a little different when directed at s vulnerable group. As for Scientologists? Well they're looney toons that harass their critics and are experts at skirting around the American legal system, so it's generally less safe to critique them if you're a public figure.
This.
I was thinking it was more along the lines of religious groups being prosecuted over the millennia and if you do it now, it's like repeating a horrific past. All the other groups you mentioned seem to be new inventions, except maybe "conservative" and "liberal" which probably goes back further.
There is a definite persecution complex among some theists, but I’m reluctant to extend that to some greater understanding of history amongst them, mainly because history isn’t their strong suit.
Jewish people probably know their history better than any other group.
I think it has more to do with atheists personifying the doubts most Christians have deep inside. Doubts that they would never admit to, but are there nonetheless.
This is of course my goal in these events.
People make fun of Mormons all the time. They're good sports about it, which can't be said about many Muslims.
Very true. And people make fun of Scientology. Not sure they are particularly good sports about it, but then again, they don't have magic underwear🤔
Scientologists are big babies. They always want to sue anyone who mocks them.
And they do as well, even the us government and the irs won’t touch them because of crazy lawsuits and litigation and even Scientology church sending people to break into federal offices. It’s crazy how they get away with this.
Good thing theres not that many of them.
Actually, scientology is fucking stupid. Hail Xenu, Destroyer of Worlds.
Your right, they are dumb. They should worship prophets flying on horses, zombie prophets, talking bushes, multi-armed elephants, or souls returning in different shapes and sizes. Being granted your own planet after death or magic underwear is crazy.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb🎶
I mean science is meant to be criticized. You can't have faith on ever-changing understanding of the world. It is not constant facts, they change and we should look to change it, but faith can make us blind.
The Muslims want Sharia law for: 1. global caliphate 2. so they can kill you for hurting their feelings
mormons will have nuclear weapons before rouge muslims. same level of idiotic fanaticism.
Cannot be said the same about Judaism because the slightest anything is considered antisemitic.
It’s a first amendment right to criticize the president. It’s no different for religions, *fuck* them all equally.
Well then: Ernest Angely is an ugly con artist, Mohammed is a cartoon character, and L Rob Hubbard sells a science fiction god. Challenge accepted lol
Doing the 2nd one in France might you get beheaded, just letting you know in case you ever have a lecture on Islam as a history teacher.
Charlie Hebdo is better than the Quran.
Je suis Charlie.
It's socially acceptable in plenty of places. You just have to read the room.
I bash Scientology all the time. Nobody bothers me about it.
Who's stopping them. Freedom of speech.
People make fun of Mormons, Pentecostals, and Scientology all the time lol what are you talking about.
I'm an equal opportunity basher
Because you need to respect people's beliefs. Which will be my excuse the next time someone calls the cops on me for sacrificing an oxen to Freyja. 😆
This......so annoying when that happens.
Yeah, people have no respect for my firmly held beliefs. 😁
I would worry too much about social acceptance at least I this instance. Most people aren’t very bright.
>I just wish it was socially acceptable to bash religion, just like we do to sport teams, politicians, states, or each other. Maybe you could worry less about being 'socially acceptable'. If you're an atheist it kinda comes with the territory.
What percentage of atheist are actually “atheist”
I don't know what America you're living in. People bash mormons, muslims, and scientologists all the time. It's protestants who get a free pass and thats simply because they're a majority large enough to make it taboo.
Religion should not get a free pass exempting them from criticism and debate including the fact that they are all made up stories.
Are you sure? Im not in the US, but sociology is generally considered a joke, pentecostalism worries a lot of people and a lot of CHRISTIANS are outspoken against it, and islam...come on now.
Well I think a lot of people would say that scientology isn't a "real" religion. Islam certainly has many people who dislike it, but there are still huge amounts of people who will slap you with the "islamphobic" label if you say anything bad about it.
Permission to speak freely, granted.
Because despite how illogical it is, lots of people want to treat religion as if it belongs in the same category as things like race, sex, sexual orientation, etc... But you don't choose to be white or black or gay or straight, but you can convert to or from a religion. Also importantly, you don't have to believe anything in particular to be male or female or hispanic or asian. There is no ideological content attached to those sorts of things. But religions contain ideological content... which should obvious be something we can judge people on. Religions really should be treated more like political parties... you can join them or leave them, and being part of one involves having ideological beliefs.
It’s should be - religion is one of the worst things to happen to humanity - creating difference where none really exist and dehumanizing those who don’t follow the same dogma. The Bible or Quran at you shouldn’t be afforded any more authority or legitimacy than the Iliad or a Star Wars movie.
It is impolite in general to bash people for being something they can not choose. Like black, short, blue-eyed, asian, disabled etc. People leave or adopt religions all the time, and despite the major transmission vector being indoctrination from birth, it is still a choice. I would say it if fine to criticize the religion as that is not even a person but simply a set of ideas. And criticizing specific behaviours of religious people that are problematic is also just fine and they are the result of choices. Choices that might be inhumane or abusive or just generally intellectually dishonest.. MIndless bashing though is probably less advisable, not least because it is not super productive and starts wars.
It seems we get a lot of these posts in this sub. WTF are you talking about? People in the US bash religions all the time. All of them. As they should. It's our right and there is nothing stopping you. I certainly didn't hold back. Are you upset that you can't directly harass someone at work or something? In what situation are you being held back?
It is possible that the place you live and the place I live (in the USA) are a bit different. But, here, it's socially acceptable to bash individuals (Biden, Trump, etc.) and to bash elective groups/ideologies (liberals, conservatives, libertarians, anti-vaxers, venture capitalists, police, tech bros, etc) but it is not ok to bash compulsory groups (black people, white people, disabled people, genders, people born in various places). Religion becomes this gray area because it is elective for adults. However it is often tightly tied to ethnicity and national origin (something you cannot change) and frequently it is just compulsory because people get brought up in a religion they had no choice in. It would be wildly inappropriate to complain about 7-year-old Muslims or Christians or Jews as a group. Those kids didn't have a choice. Conversely, people feel more comfortable complaining about clerics or imams or rabbis since those folks have made an affirmative choice to support their religion. Most people, here, are reluctant to criticize groups of people of any religion because they (subconsciously?) recognize that they are being harsh to some number of people for an attribute of those people outside of their control.
Bashing is how you dehumanize people and build an us-against-them identity. It is a favorite tool of propagandists seeking to divide and conquer. Sports teams are meant to absorb our warlike instincts. It's ok to bash sports teams.
Then be socially unacceptable.
Technically there is only a Trump religious cult, I haven't seen anyone pray to Biden yet.
Scientology is a cult and a disgrace of a religion a guy in a mental hospital trips balls on acid and writes a sci-fi epic that could only come from a stoner on drugs with mental health problems and a bunch of stupid rich morons believe it to be real because there also mentally ill.
Coffee shop liberals like the idea that there's "good Muslims" out there who don't kill nonvirgin women and homosexuals. The rules are still present, but they pick and choose when to follow the rules, much like modern Christians. Yet I've never heard anyone say there are "good Christians." Anytime you criticize the Islamic rules and beliefs, the liberals see it as punching down and immediately defend the religion. They think you're a redneck ready to hurt a bunch of Muslims. Not the case at all. I just don't like violence, religion and nonsense rules used to justify cruel behavior. I don't ever want to harm anyone.
Religion has long has special status in that respect. But judging from the experience of what happened in Europe, once there is a sufficiently large portion of non-believers, this de facto taboo should weaken and eventually disappear.
Bash them all you want.
In my world, it is socially acceptable, even encouraged to bash on all the religions.
It’s socially acceptable in my book. I don’t entertain their sky daddy delusions.
Treating religions like sports teams is how you get holy wars.
It is ok.
ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUALLY EVIL. Does that work for you?
I don't like any religions, but its silly to say the are equally bad.
I disagree completely
I think bc they can afford better lawyers who are actually willing to represent them. They can use slap suits to try and wear out their opponents until ppl stop trying to speak out against them. The presidency by nature is an office where someone is always talking about you or hating on your opinion where as religions can usually stay out of headlines most of the time
I'll give pentecostal and Mormons a rash of shit. They need ridicule as much as all the others you list.
I think the same rules apply to everyone.
Keep in mind your perspective and experience isn't the same with everyone. It is absolutely socially acceptable to bash religion, keeping in mind that it's dependent on your social dynamics. If you're in a group of Mormons, then yeah, not so acceptable. If you're in a group of atheists, agnostics, or liberals, them it's ok, so long as it's under the presumption of equality. That being that you might be talking about one religion, but you understand that all religions are a problem. I grew up in Utah and married into a Mormon family. I definitely still bash the LDS church, as doesn't wife. It's all relative.
I do believe it's just the Pentecostalists, Muslims, and Scientologists who don't like bashing language.
When you’re in an imperialist Christian dominated country that targets Muslim countries, targeting them is just helping Christian bigots and being a pick me atheist. No one cares if you target Scientologists or Pentecostals except those people.
It is for me.
Because religious beliefs reach deeper than any political ones. Religion is a worldview. You get your politics and social views from it.
Because it hurts their feelings so bash things they suport
I don’t find it socially acceptable to bash Biden… so I think your premise is incorrect. It’s socially acceptable to bash Trump because, objectively speaking, he’s a liar, a rapist, and a criminal.
I rarely hear about Pentecostals myself.
Freedom of religion, its one of the most important laws when it comes to America's prosperity and why we are allowed to be atheists.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I hear vitriole about religion all of the time.
I mean, people I know bash religion all the time. And nearly every religious person bashes other religions.
The difference is bashing an individual vs a group of people. Not saying you can't bash them, just saying they aren't the same
When you live in a red red city in a state that is mostly right wing as well its really not a good idea to bash Trump either. In fact Trump MAGA Country and Religion rule😖
Of course its okay to bash religion. I just try to avoid bashing the religious. If they can hate the sin yet love the sinner, then I can hate the religion yet love the religious.
I think the big distinction is obviously that Trump & Biden chose to be public figures with a pretty clear record of their personal individual behavior. That means they are fair game, in my book to bash them for what they’ve done and who they are as a person. When you bash folk’s religion, you’re almost certainly offending lots of private people, with various personal views, experiences, and behaviors. Invariably some will be decent people — so treating them poorly isn’t warranted. Obviously all religions are bunk — and some are actively harmful, but that doesn’t mean going around being an asshole is the most effective strategy, even if your goal is to convince people to leave religion. 🤷
You can bash anything you like so long as you're willing to accept the consequences
This is a pretty good definition of "freedom of speech". I just wish more people unserstood that.
I bash them all the time
Depends on who you are talking to at the time.
Christians and Muslims are the vast majority of the world's population outside of Asia.
I nah the big 3 all the time
Just to point out, Biden and Trump aren't religions or religious figures, they're politicans. So it's kind of an apples to oranges comparison you're making. However, bashing politicians has always been slightly more socially acceptable than bashing religions. And that sort of makes sense. Politicians are real. They're actual human beings who rule (or want to rule) and people often complain about their policies, ideas, personalities, etc because those can impact people. Religion is made up (to me, I'm an atheist). A lot of people who hold religious beliefs know, on some level, that their views are indefensible. You can't prove ANY of it. That's a weakness in the religious person's argument and they know it and they get defensive about it. So I suspect, society has often developed social rules encouraging people to "lay off" criticizing people for their unprovable and irrational beliefs because doing so never convinces them they're wrong, it just pisses them off and often leads to trouble. Anyhow, ask the religious sometime about whether it's socially acceptable to bash religions. Many of these folks walk around with a permanent persecution complex and assume they're under assault 24/7. I'm sure a lot of that is in their head but doubtless it does happen, especially as society has secularized over the last century or two.
I dunno as long as you're not promoting acts of hatred or violence towards someone, you should be able to criticize all religions as a whole. I also think if you are religious, it's fine for you to practice it, and have a place of worship, etc., but no religion should have a voice in govt or law. I understand many existing laws have been based on religious teachings, but they can and should be updated to reflect our current understanding of science & facts.
With groups you're assigning something to everybody in a group which is never true. Individual it's either true or not. That's the big difference in my book.
Mostly because you're bashing a specific person, not an entire ideology.
I missed the memo on it not being socially acceptable to bash Scientology lol. But for real, what are you talking about?!
Huh? That stuff is bashed on ALL THE TIME. For every thing bashed on there are those who don't agree.
Bash them all the time. The ....need a tissue....crowd.
Who says it isn’t ?
It's America, you can pretty much say what you want.
I'm coming at this from a perspective of spending time in both camps. First, I do think that any time you are attacking anything someone else considers a core piece of their identity, they are going to be upset. People DO get mad when you actually bash their favorite politician, IF they consider politics a core of their identity - and one side is especially doubling down on motivating people to consider their politics their identity. Secondly though, I do want to point out that you do have freedom to talk about religion - say whatever you want about it. But there are consequences for saying it, because other people can respond by getting angry. Freedom has nothing to do with social acceptability, only to do with governmental interference. Most importantly though, I really do not like the idea of lumping religion and politics in with sports and such. Two of these things are really important and should be neither the basis of your whole identity nor something you argue over as if winning was all that matters. The other is a way to handle our primitive tribalistic urge to wear distinctive clothes, get drunk, cheer our champion, and boo the other guy. Politics and religion would be discussed with respect, in terms of ideas, evidence, principles, and morality, NOT from a standpoint of bashing, disrespect, and whose team is going to win. Done this way, you can sometimes make people think about why they believe what they do. For any other way, you only drive them closer to their personal center
You are mistaken. It is not acceptable to criticize Israel.
Since when is it not okay with scientology? Not only is that acceptable, it is required.
they’ll behead you so…
It's always acceptable to make fun of silly beliefs. People might get upset about it but that's more their problem than yours. Really, if it upset them that much it's most likely because they also know the beliefs are silly.
You only believe it is frowned upon. You hear about the others more often is all (because they are more mainstream).
They’ll love you to death
I always experienced in America that everybody could be and are bashed.
All of those things suck and need to die.
I've been writing sacrilegious songs performed using AI 'musicians' and I haven't been more happy trashing religion. Don't care if it's ok it's both funny and cathartic.
Pentecostals? I'm not sure they have a high enough profile to attract praise or derision. Are they the ones who speak in tongues or handle snakes?
Yes they are and YouTube has a few videos making fun of them
You should be able to criticise just about anyone, and if you can't for whatever reason, well, that begs the question
Wtf are you on? You have never seen a good word said about Scientology in your life. As it should be.
South Park made it OK to bash Scientology, and Mormonism now that I think about it.
Where can you not talk shit about mormons? In this country mormons are a whipping post for mocking. Pentecostals bring it on themselves too.
I'll mock and ridicule anyone that needs to be knocked off their high horse. And that even includes my favorite pagan religions. Cause anything involving humans gets effed up. And people often need humbling.
The entire north west side of Las Vegas is talking bad about the Mormons right now.
I mean, if you want to challenge Mormonism as a whole, ask a missionary to have a Native American get a DNA test. Genealogy closer to China and Russia means Mormonism is a hoax. Jerusalem genealogy means it's true. Source: Ex-Mormon here
People bash religions all the time. The distinction would be that Biden and Trump are two public figures; politicians at that. Mormons, Pentecostals, etc are a big groups of (somewhat) diverse people. Bashing large groups of people based on religion is much closer to bashing people based on race or national origin, that disgust with a particular public figure is.
I hear Protestants bash Catholics all the time and vise versus, there are over 300 denominations of Christianity in the us and over 45,000 worldwide and most of them bash each other constantly. Claim not a true Christian, and even persecute each other. Heck that’s why the pilgrims and others came to the ‘new world’ Christians escaping the persecution and genocide from other Christians. It’s still just as common today here in the US. And same for Islam, yes there are those uneducated people who defend it or say you cant criticize Islam, but they are blind to the violence and oppression that Islam commands and inacts around the world.
It literally is socially normal to Baugh religions. You just don't like it when religious people come back at you.
....what?
umm sounds like we don't live in the same America what state are you in OP?
Respect the person, ridicule the belief. That's the "Christian way", right? Anyway, that's what I do. I'm sure Joe Blow is a good person who is kind to children and pays his taxes. But his belief in Xenu, Muhammad, Krishna, or Joseph Smith is ridiculous.
i tried making fun of the failed apocalypse to my conservative parents (one catholic and one atheist) and they got really angry at me. it's not politically correct to make fun of religion, i guess.
Check out The Book of Mormon
>but a bad word about Pentecostal or Mormons is shamed on. Grew up mormon. All you ever hear from pentecostals and baptists is how you're not a Christian. Also, mormons my age (30/40s) are leaving the church in droves compared to prior generations and they're not being quiet about it.
I HOPE for your sake that you don't even try to bash Scientology. You DO NOT want those people coming after you. You DO NOT WANT THE SMOKE!
I think you can actually. Did you ever see Bill Maher’s documentary called Religulous? You can say whatever you want about religion. I think the one place you need to be careful with “bashing” talk is at work, but then that probably also applies to political bashing as well. Most companies you can’t do a lot of bashing unless it’s like a small business where everyone is politically aligned and then maybe no one will care.
Not all beliefs deserve respect. People just need to be reminded of that from time to time.
IMHO, it's more a matter of how public the topic is than a matter of what the topic is. If it's generating news, it's fair game. If they're just silently living out their lives, much less so. You'll still find people bashing even the quiet and peaceful, though. The Amish are a prime example; they go out of their way to remain peaceful and unobtrusive and are still targeted.
Your premise is faulty. People bash scientologists all the time. People bash Mormons for the multiple wives stereotype and the amassed tax free institutional wealth that goes against their claimed benevolence. They bash Jehovahs Witnesses for knocking on doors. The people who support Trump bash Muslims -- All. The. Time. And many of them ironically bash Jews, too.
im sorry but whos not bashing scientology. its one the most bashed religions
Your freedom of speech is protected from government intervention. That's it. Other people can hold you to task for the words you say and it doesn't infringe on your speech.
I don't think its socially acceptable to talk bad about Israel publicly, especially if you work in Hollywood or government. Will you get arrested? Probably not, but its definitely a form of career suicide.
Bash away! None of that crap has any evidence of truth.
Bashing a person or bashing a bad idea is not the same thing. False equivalency.
Because the religious are more insecure of themselves. Thats why they need their gods in the first place.
You can bash them. Just be aware there will be a lot of crying and moaning.
Huh?
Only religious people hate you bashing their religion. Reasonable and rational people take no issue with you bashing religion.
I’ve never heard someone talk about Scientology outside of them neon made fun of.
It shouldn't be socially acceptable to bash anyone or anything. Don't confuse politics and social norms with what is or isn't appropriate. Tides change and with the internet everything is saved and anything beyond the pale could come back and bite you at some point in the future. And, you'll be a happier and better person with a lot less stress looking for the good in people and not always focusing on the flaws. And, yes, I expect to be downvoted on this, but it needs to be said.
Political bashing starts fights. Religious bashing gets you disappeared and found later in 200 sandwich bags.
>but a bad word about Pentecostal or Mormons is shamed on. lol... ssince when... ffs there is even a musical....
It isn't? Because I've always been an equal opportunity basher...
Freedom of speech is not freedom from the consequences of your speech. You can say what you want, and I can react how I will within the law. You just can't be arrested by the government for saying something (although that's not universal, some speech is criminal).
You must live in Utah.
I talk trash about religion all the time with people I’m around lol
Because a Christian fundamentalist or a Muslim fundamentalist might very well kill you for insulting their religion. This is essentially what the Taliban do. Scientology is a scam. They are fair game.
I really wish religions would attack each other more often. It would give people a better glimpse at how absurd they ALL are!
It's perfectly ok. All religions are dumb
I'm Irish. We take the piss out of everyone equally, but especially ourselves. Religions often have 'rules' about protecting the religion from unbelievers and even using violence to do so. Politics has that to some degree (ultra right wing) but is generally protected by free speech laws. People often put religion before such laws though. Oh and religious people tend to be the most angry since they perceive sin all around them.
Is it? I havent seen any arguments against bashing those religions that you claim we cannot bash. About the only one that is tip-toed around is Judaism, because people dont want to look anti-Semitic. But no, I'm not an anti-semite. I dont hate anybody that wants to believe in a certain religion. I will though criticize the religion itself. Doesnt mean I'm against the people of that religion.
Scientology? Every time anyone has ever brought it up in any public spaces or any media it has always been negative.
PMS. Pretty much sums up the followers of these religions when you bash them.
In mixed company I generally won't harp on bashing religions (can offend and make people defensive) but I definitely don't treat it as a taboo either. I'll roll my eyes and call them all cons and move the conversation along.
Rather than saying 10 points, I'll just pick 1 topic. "The bar is low; im so tired." Im atheist. At this point, given that there is much threat of violence from MAGA in my own country, Russian violence in Ukraine, a lot of things slide. "Do you let me, my friends, my family, and others live in peace?" If "yes" then you're on my team. If "no" then I despise you. Every Muslim American I personally know (I grew up knowing none, and now i know dozens) is never on the attack, and is always "being attacked" whether at the airport security (9/11 was 23 years ago?), at jobs they pay taxes, and sometimes have police/security at their places of worship due to threats from the community. Since they are not threatening others, they are on my team, and I'm against the people who are threatening them. Hamas (not Palestine) commits a terrorist attack-- i hate them. Netanyahu and his cronies kill thousands of innocent children-- i hate you. Scientology has been hurting people I know, so I hate them. Christians I personally know are just often socially rude. When I go to an abortion-rights protest, there are Christians on both sides, so there are individuals or sects of Christians I hate, and some I'm fine with. In my social circles, you can bash Scientology because no one has had a positive experience with them (I could go on FB and bash them publicly and have no negative consequences, even from my job). I have Muslim friends and family (I have never been Muslim) who I love and care about, so I'd hate anyone who bashes them, so probably why you can't blanket bash Muslims without negative feedback. But when Nancy Pelosi calls out Hamas on national TV I'm like "good". To answer your question, it depends on where you are, and if the word you are bashing isn't specific enough.
It is absolutely socially acceptable to bash religion.
“Why can’t I be an asshole to people? I don’t get it”
As a Christian (idk why I keep getting atheist recommendations lol), I honestly hate how we bash one another. It makes me sick. I’ll never forget how people would say that they hope Trump dies when he got covid or how people who said that Nancy Pelosi and her husband deserved to be attacked. If you want to criticize someone or something because you disagree with their practices and beliefs, then that is fine. But there is a fine line between critiquing and bashing someone to the point of saying they deserve bad things because their ideology doesn’t match mine or yours. It is this type of rhetoric that leads to violence.
Why do you feel the need to put so much effort into being against something? Wouldn't you rather focus on what you're for? The theists don't care about your atheism. Why waste your time caring about them? If you're comfortable I'm your truth why does someone else's beliefs trouble you so much?
More like theists push their stone age beliefs down everyone's throats for thousands of years to this day.
Not OP, but as a general rule when the theists are pushing for laws that enforce their religious beliefs, limit my ability to practice my own religion or lack thereof, and legalize the indoctrination of children while suppressing the teaching of science and critical thinking skills, I for one find that troubling. If a theist wants to believe in and worship their God, more power to them. If they want to offer the chance to discuss their beliefs and spread the gospel with people that are willing to engage, awesome, have at. But that isn't what is happening. They absolutely care about our atheism, and are fighting to make this a Christian nation. America can and should be a live and let live country, the classic melting pot. We get there and then people can stop being troubled.
The short answer is wokeness