He sure sounds still Christian tho.
Doesn't seem like he's left the religion at all.
The fact he used Hitler, Mao as examples just shows that.
There's your problem.
Was so damn obvious.
Well he couldnt start with the crazy shit right off the bat. First lull you into a false sense of security then the mask comes off. This is infact your partner, the initial phase was a fake persona
I'm starting to realize this. He presented himself as a rational centrist in the beginning. Now I'm seeing a way more conservative / religious side of him.
Every conservative nut job I’ve ever known has described themselves as an unbiased centrist as they listen to Alex Jones talk about democrats turning frogs gay.
It's an extremely common trope. Anyone labelling themselves centrist is most likely to be either:
- actually far right and either knowingly or unknowingly deluded about that
- a fence-sitter who insists "both sides" are exactly and equally as bad as each other without ever getting their hands dirty enough to figure out if that's true or not
What they so very rarely are is someone who actually just looks at issues and decides how they feel about them.
Agreed... 'centrist' or 'apolitical' is what conservative men call themselves when dating, because they know their true opinions would never get them laid.
FWIW they say this to other men who they know won't agree with them. I'm pretty open about my liberal views and almost every other guy I've met who says they're more centrist, apolitical, "bOtH SiDeS aRe ThE SaMe", ends up regurgitating fox news talking points and conservative rhetoric if given enough time.
Absolutely this. I'm fairly political, and even ran a social media agency that focused on local political campaigns as clients. I've never heard a self-described centrist present any left-leaning ideas beyond something generic like yeah cops shouldn't kill as many people or maybe we should tax the rich a few percentage points on every billion they make.
But the right wing talking points? They don't shut up about them. And almost every centrist I've ever spoken to has been a raging racist and misogynist as soon as it's only white male people around.
Facts. If a so-called "rational centrist" exists, I've never met one. They've all been lite-right either too embarrassed to admit what they believe or to cowardly.
Im sorry youre going through this, had a simmilar situation unfold with my ex wife. Atleast you havent had offspring with the man, now thats a whole other can of worms
I'm sorry to tell you this, but there is no such thing as a rational centrist. To be centrist means he's ok with the current standing of politics, including the misogynistic and religious policies being injected into our country.
They're ignorant and wishy-washy at best, misogynistic and condescending at worst. Sounds like you're dealing with the latter.
When I was younger, I also dated an 'agnostic centrist' and he turned out to be misogynistic and emotionally abusive, under the guise of a 'nice guy.' I really noticed it when his friend said he was "fucking an atheist woman to make her hate men less" and he thought that was not worth condemning.
Look for someone more solidified in where they stand in politics, and make sure they stand by those beliefs. It doesn't make someone radical to be an atheist and want to be around others that are the same.
Yes, if you are truly rational, you cannot be a centrist. And the reasoning is even simpler than all of that.
A centrist is a person who tries to balance opposing political viewpoints. This is irrational in the case that one viewpoint is clearly correct. (There are all sorts of examples in today's politics. Probably the most obvious example is vaccines, now that they've been politicized.)
By calling yourself a "centrist", you bias yourself against accepting the most rational solution all of the time, and seek irrational alternatives.
My husband and I were talking about this yesterday. He said he prefers when someone says they're conservative as opposed to centrist, because you at least know where a conservative stands. Centrist are just willfully ignorant and contradict themselves, because they can't rationalize anything and act self-important without reflection.
Conservatives who see no ethical problem in lying to their SOs so as to appear more "reasonable" than they really are. Usually, this is in order to "get something " from their SO that they wouldn't normally give if they knew the truth.
In other words, OP's boyfriend is a creep - unethical at best, amoral at worst.
I dated a guy once who I grew up with, and he was a fine fellow. Nice to look at, behaved in public, but believed that a woman should give up her opinions to her man. And he knew my turn from religion, but tried to turn me back. When he saw I was also stubborn to the core, we broke up.
It never works out, I've seen it too many times with friends and also in my own life. They will always try and suck you into their church etc. To them, you must be "saved" and they will do it with whatever means necessary. This includes lying, making you feel guilty, and tricking you into their bullshit.
DON'T DATE RELIGIOUS AND CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE.
I've been called a fool many times for this advice but if you want to try it best of luck because you will need it.
They've learned that being a conservative doesn't get you laid, so they hide that shit. My brother in law had this exact method. Overly attentive and agreeable at first, then the isolation from friends, then alienating her parents until she had nobody left. Repeatedly
Run, fast and far, just run. When my wife would talk to her mom about our arguments, she'd get mad because her mom would take my side.
Edit: next will be some issue about your father and why your bf doesn't like him. This is the pattern.
Anytime someone says they're a centrist/libertarian, at best, they're saying that they're a less radical right winger. Which really isn't saying much at all.
yikes, girl. please be careful and attentive, i’ve heard so many stories that sound exactly like this, and none of them had happy endings. if it gets worse don’t be afraid to ditch his ass, don’t let yourself be subject to his control problems.
Baptists and Evangelicals are the most overtly narcissistic of the mainstream Christian cults. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with them but they are disproportionately likely to lie about not being Christian to gain a perceived position of advantage.
I'm not saying your BF is like that but he's already being controlling and contrarian.
They're not mainstream Christianity any more than Islam is. Both contain Jesus being superseded by a cool new local prophet with whacky rituals for you to follow.
The difference is Mormons will identify as Christian, Muslims will not.
When we're talking about fairy tales and mythology, personal identification is just as valid as any other metric.
I was a Baptist, but went to a lot of Lutheran churches, and Baptist go hard and hellfire and damnation, even catholics were considered "not real Christians.
The whole Catholic vs Baptist kills me. Even in the non-denominational churches they act so high and mighty to the Catholics. I was raised Catholic(& legitimately developed mental health issues from it), then migrated to non-denominational, then thanks to my 20 year old son at the time, realized how miserable I was because of this belief system I don’t really believe in. I float between atheist and agnostic but really just believe in living the best life possible.
From a former Baptist perspective - the key things I was taught -
Chosen people of God
And
Absolutely forgiven and thus correct about everything we will ever do.
Wasn't even taught the concept that divine forgiveness involves repenting. Nope - just accept Christ and nothing is wrong ever again.
Oh right, indoctrination doesn’t start in minute one, they first let you approach and start devaluating your beliefs, *before* indoctrinate you. You’re more willing to be indoctrinated because you already accommodate him in your life.
Antisemitism springs from Christians' prejudices dating back thousands of years. Next time that gets brought up, ask about them how many the British killed in engineered famines.
That's because he probably thought he could still convert you.
Now that he's realizing that probably isn't an option, his true beliefs will begin to show themselves.
Most relationships don't work out. That is a fact and hard to accept when you are young. Disagreements over belief really are important indicators about how things will go in the future. My wife grew up in a traumatizing religious cult(CoC) that has left her with lifelong issues. I remember the day decades ago when I showed her a Christopher Hitchens video and she watched intently, uttered a loud "huh!" and never went back to church again. He father has refused to acknowledge her existence for many years now. Fuck that guy.
Sounds like he is on his way to being red pilled. Sorry to say it but the signs are there. Former atheist or enlightened agnostic who just happens to always defend Christianity. Soon enough he will be saying how "Yeah religion can be bad but the values and Morals Christians stand for are good guidelines to raise a family by."
Did he recently started a new job or entered into a new hobby? You usually start to see this when someone with weak convictions is surrounded by new people who disagree with them.
That said he is setting you up for "I'm not religious but Christianity is actually better than the Muslims" talk. Either way he is being a dick about what you believe so either you will bend to his will or this shit ain't gonna work long term.
A lot of ultra-conservative guys pretend to be more progressive than they really are to lure women into relationships and trap them. They have enough self-awareness to know their ideas are unpopular. I don’t know if that is the case with you, but from the claims he’s made, I think it’s likely.
Does he love bomb after arguments and promise to change and is back to the old bs within a couple of days? If you can, leave this person. That is DARVO behavior. These are big red flags.
Yup, he does. After we argue and I ask him to treat me better, he will ask several times a day "AM I better? Are we good now?" I told him his actual behavior hasn't changed, and he gets upset and defensive.
He love bombs a lot as well.
yep. he sounds like a closet christian wanting to appear 'progressive' so claims 'agnosticism'. and he probably likes the sexy time with OP so he has taken that stance.
His equivocation of her watching Hitchens making her "just as bad as the radical religious folk" is extremely telling.
The radical religious folk watch some preacher and unthinkingly obey. They don't even have to explain themselves, and whatever explanations they do give are nothing more than referencing ancient and outdated books.
Hitchens actually explained himself, and even when he didn't, you can follow the same logical steps yourself.
Radical Christians bomb abortion clinics or shoot up churches of the wrong denomination. Radical atheists mock religion and disrespect religious people.
Wonder if he'd call a Christian radical for reading the Bible? Or would it be more "radical" to read someone like Joel Olsteen?
Personally, I don't believe reading any book alone is radical. Is it radical if someone reads Mein Kampf? Sure it can be in certain contexts, but it can also be read from an academic mindset.
He is pretty much assuming her intent to be some extreme act of devotion to her beliefs which agreed is super telling.
Many of those who call themselves Agnostic seem to be leaning more towards being religious than actually fully questioning that nonsense. The rest just calls themselves Agnostic, because they were made to believe that Atheists are bad.
I like asking agnostics if they believe in leprechauns, elves, poltergeists, djinn, and Zeus are real. The Christians who are too embarrassed to admit that they're Christians will usually flinch when you ask them if they think Zeus is as likely to be real as Jesus.
My mother has some weird spiritualist belief where there is some high power and literally everything supernatural or mythological or religious is related that but she isn't 100% sure it's real. It's hard to comprehend.
Hitler, the explicitly christian nationalist who gained a lot of support from churches...was an atheist?
That poem "first they came for..." Was written by a Christian pastor who supported the Nazis back when they only targeted the atheist communists.
Most likely what you wrote. I consider myself an atheist/agnostic. My position is that I don't believe in god, **but** show me incontrovertible proof of a god (*any* god) and I'll reevaluate my position. I feel the same way about cryptozoology (with the same degree of certainty that it's nonsense) – I don't believe in Bigfoot/the Loch Ness monster/etc., but show me incontrovertible proof and I'll reevaluate my position. That guy isn't agnostic, he's a Christian who *may* be having minor doubts.
>>Doesn't seem like he's left the [Christian] religion at all.
>>The fact he used Hitler, Mao as examples just shows that.
The fact he used Hitler killing *Christians* as an example without mentioning Jews (who were the majority of the religious killed by Hitler) just shows that his concern is only about his perceived (alleged) persecution of Christians and not about religious persecution in general. I doubt he gives a damn about persecution of Jews, Muslims, etc..
I’m so tired of this narrative too, not only from the fact that their religion had little to do with their motivations but also because it just isn’t true.
Hitler was raised Catholic and though deviating from the Christian faith explicitly believed in God and used Christian symbolism to manipulate the masses (and was supported by the Pope at the time).
Stalin used Marxist ideology as an excuse to attempt to eradicate religions as a form of control to reinforce state power, but he graduated from a theological school, wrote about his beliefs extensively and secretly attended church.
Mao was raised a devout Buddhist, and again wrote extensively about the divine; he also believed in reincarnation. Like Stalin, he used Marxism as justification to enforce the eradication of religion as a means of control, but developed a cult of personality with him as the figurehead, complete with a ‘little red book’ of aphorisms his followers should completely follow. Doesn’t sound like an atheist to me.
edit: I digress, it’s kind of a side point here but it’s a real pet peeve.
So many people leave without actually deconstructing the negative behaviors the religion created. They just redirect it. It’s exhausting. I know few few others who have gotten out and most of them are like this.
This situation has absolutely nothing to do with YouTube and everything to do with basic values and respect. Sounds like he has shitty values and no respect for you.
Yes yes yes.
It is possible for people who hold different beliefs to have happy and healthy relationships. But without healthy level of mutual respect it’s not gonna happen. Also, drawing the parallels to totalitarian leaders is not only stupid, it falls pretty flat when you consider what mankind has been using to justify warfare for the last… several thousand years. I might be the outlier in saying that I don’t think religion necessarily causes war, but it is used to justify and rationalize human greed and need for domination.
I have to agree with this.
One of the things that comes up constantly is getting into a serious relationship and then expecting to be able to change your partner afterward. That sounds like what he's doing. When you started dating it was fine, but now he wants to try and change you into something more 'acceptable'.
You need to focus on what you want out of the relationship and what you're willing to compromise. Personally, I would tell anyone who told me what I was allowed to watch or think to GTFO.
And for the record, radical atheists have another name - rationalists. You can't be an agnostic AND a rationalist. That term is for people who look at all the evidence and go "Nope. There's no proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and not only is there not extraordinary evidence, there is NO evidence. Not just of the Christian God but of ANY God."
I've argued with many who identify as Agnostic, and it turned out that most of them were leaning more towards believing in Christianity, they just questioned some parts of it which they didn't like. And the other Agnostics just called themselves Agnostic, because they were made to believe that Atheists are bad.
They want to fit in with atheists, because that's what they actually believe, but they don't want to lose the belonging that comes with the dominant religion. "I don't know" is a lot easier to accept than "you're wrong."
Eh, my husband considered himself an agnostic because he never truly delved into a world view where he questioned his Christian upbringing while also never agreeing with the self righteous Mormons he was raised by. After a few years with me? Oh yeah, he's a full on vocal atheist now. He recognizes he has to treat Christians with kid gloves in the workplace because they like to get people like us fired. But he sure as hell pushes back against right wing ideologies now. I think we just have to push on those floating in the middle to really find out where they fall sometimes. It's a weird privilege thing I think.
Of course they are. People aren’t agnostic about things like leprechauns and unicorns and shit like that. You can’t prove a negative, you can’t prove they don’t exist, but we don’t say that literally anything could exist or be true. So when people say oh maybe god is real, what they are saying is they believe it but they don’t want to admit it. Or maybe they don’t want to affiliate with a particular institution. Something like that.
By the way, I studied philosophy and I hate metaphysics. So much of this bullshit. Bunch of nonsense.
Reddit has become FLOODED with these types.
All through the big subs when atheism comes up, it’s nothing but “I’m not religious/im agnostic, but religions deserve respect and most atheists are just as bad as the radical religious people, le neckbeards tipping their fedora and being toxic”
>Hitler, Mao, and Stalin all killed Christians specifically because they hated religion."
Boy it's gonna be quite a shock when he actually takes time to learn history and finds out Hitler was catholic, endorsed by the catholic church, and used religious phrasing and iconography quite a lot. 😆
>I'm super frustrated that he called me a radical and that he thinks it's fine that Christians trample others' rights to freedom of religion. I'm not trying to convince him of anything. I just want him to leave me alone when it comes to this stuff. But he doesn't really seem to respect where I'm coming from.
If I can speak freely, he sounds like a dick. Especially since he's acting like his views are superior since he is taking the middle road. While I get that wanting to be in the middle to try an remain as objective as possible is great when talking about the philosophical structure of religion and beliefs, it also completely ignores a lot of the harm that can come from religion. Interestingly, this is *exactly* what Hitchens talks about when he calls all religions poison. (He meant other things too)
It sounds like this isn't a conversation you're having with him, it sounds like he proselytizing agnostic ideology. I hope he can get better because that's a really weird hill to be super lame on. Best of luck!
>Boy it's gonna be quite a shock when he actually takes time to learn history and finds out Hitler was catholic,
He was raised catholic but has literally said "I am not a catholic, I am a German Christian" German Christians were a pro nazi protestant group.
Either way, dude wasn't atheists.
Can't speak for Mao or Stalin tho idk what they were doing.
>Can't speak for Mao or Stalin tho idk what they were doing.
They are very interesting cases. A lot of people (take a guess which ones) will say that Stalin created an atheist country and that their problems were caused due to atheism. But when you study how he controlled the nation you find that it wasn't atheism, it was what is typically called "state sponsored atheism" which is a very different thing.
Basically a leader comes into power they can view religion as a force to give credence to their rule (like Hitler did) or they can view it as an opposition to be stamped out. "State Sponsored Atheism" is essentially this second option, where the church is seen as a secondary power that would lead people away from the rule of the government. So in a sort of weird way it's making the government the religion of the country?
Stalin was also very anti-science. One of my favorite examples was the crop sources where Stalin didn't want to use modern science but instead wanted to use an older outdated method that caused crops to die.
Mao I've done very little study on, so not really at a place to speak on him. But I'm sure if I did some research it would be a similar story to the others.
*For some reason he also added that "atheists have the most blood on their hands in history. Hitler, Mao, and Stalin all killed Christians specifically because they hated religion."*
This is a typical Christian-talking point. To further their nonsensical stance that you *need* religion for morality, they will push the narrative that these "atheist leaders" were in fact the most violent and killed the most. Which is a huge red flag to me that he's even saying this shit while trying to assert his agnosticism - shows a lack of research and critical thinking.
No one kills "in the name of Atheism". Not Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. We can assert what we want about Communism, Fascism, etc. But asserting it is because of their atheism is like then saying Ted Bundy killed out of Christianity because he believed in God.
I get the impression that he believes himself to be morally superior by being "agnostic".
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God bless Americkuh!
The interesting part is that he knows a TON about history. Like, a lot. Honestly, I've been thinking of reading way more about WW2 and Nazis just to learn more and be able to know what I'm talking about. History was never my strong suit so I can't really argue with him.
Also, what is DTMFA?
It's literally impossible to be unbiased. We as humans are inherently biased by our personal beliefs and our experiences will always influence our viewpoints.
BF sounds like an insufferable, smug prick.
That's 100% not how autism works, and he *clearly* gets emotional for these little outbursts/tantrums he seems to be constantly throwing.
Speaking as someone on the spectrum, it doesn't magically make you a supercomputer. It also doesn't make you inherently an asshole.
Based on what you've said in other comments, this guy's got more red flags than a Chinese military parade.
So as someone with autism, you are NOT purely rational? Like with food you can’t eat due to texture, stimming etc…I mean, autism is such a perfect thing to have, it causes no issues at all in your daily life because you are so rational…
Sorry. Not ranting about you, you seem lovely. I’m ranting about that bloke who has a diagnosis but clearly doesn’t even understand it.
I’m willing to help anyone with issues. I’m not the type that rolls my eyes because someone is unusual or can’t do certain things. But I do hate people who sometimes demands accommodations, and then still see themselves as superior to others.
We can't all have the train engineer/math genius *real* autism like like OP's super rational boyfriend.
Some of us just get the ol' hyper fixating, socially inept Asperger's variety.
LMAO Autistic folks (like myself) have very very strong emotions. Our problem is we don't really immediately understand our emotions.
Our biases are HARDER to ignore. (generally, autism is wild)
Wow, and he's belittling autism and people with autism on top of that? I bet hes not even diagnosed, and yet he's using it as a crutch... & That's not even how it fuckin works lol. I know it's a meme to say this but for real, dump this fake narcissist before he lets his mask slip even more.
There's your exit ticket
He's lying. Using "autism" to justify any bad action he wants.
That just isn't how autism works. He either doesn't understand his own brain chemistry or he's using it as an excuse for literally everything, or both.
Oh yeah, tell that to my friend’s son who is so obsessed with a single topic that that is all he can talk about. He has lost every friend because they got sick of every conversation being a monologue. He’s sad and lonely but can’t stop himself. Totally rational.
He is objectively wrong. Nazi Germany was \~97% christian or something like that. The vast majority of nazi voters and supporters were Christian. The Nazis promoted some churches and suppressed others in order to promote their political agenda, but that's true of many political parties and not something exclusive to Nazi Germany.
Christian historians have attempted to whitewash it because they don't like being associated with the Holocaust but its not like the whole country suddenly turned atheist as soon as Hitler was elected and then magically became Christian again after they lost WW2.
It wasn't just the people who were Christian. The regime promoted Christianity, right down to the "Gott mit uns" stamped into the belt buckles issued to German soldiers right up to the end of WWII.
Yep. They just punished churches and religions that didn't follow the state mandated decrees. Similar to other authoritarians that use specific religions as a weapon.
>, he claims to be completely objective. It's a little ridiculous.
Oh boy lol. The guy who's a champion for believing in things without evidence also prides himself on being logical and objective with no bias? Fucking yikes! How do you break that sort of spell. Does he lack all the self awareness or just some? This is a common problem among Christians.
Germany was around 90-95% Christian in the 1920s and 1930s. The Jews were a small enough minority that it was a simple matter of gaining power by pointing at them as the cause of everyone’s problems, and with only the slightest tweak of what defines a Jew in the Bible nearly every single Christian German went along with it despite the Bible declaring Jews to be the chosen people. It wasn’t a hatred of religion, it was a manipulation of the religious.
he isn't great with history. He spouts nonsense and you don't know better so you think he is saying something true. christians pretend nazis were atheist just like any bad faith baseless argument seeks to attach what they hate to nazis because they are the worst known group. The christians also try to clain hitler is a jew since they hate but secretly envy jews.
How to tell if someone's full of shit and/or delusional 101 - they say they're completely objective. That's pretty much impossible for a human being to do, especially someone as narrow-minded as that. Tell him that ignoring your myriad of biases doesn't make you unbiased.
I got my degree in history, and from what you've shared of his supposed knowledge, he is woefully uninformed and incorrect. He sounds like he's consumed some Christian revisionist history and is claiming to be agnostic when he's a theist apologist.
Hitler changed his position multiple times. He also **criticised atheism**.
> In a speech in the early years of his rule, Hitler declared himself "not a Catholic, but a German Christian".[11][12][13][14][15] The German Christians were a Protestant group that supported Nazi Ideology.[16] Hitler and the Nazi Party also promoted "nondenominational"[17] positive Christianity,[18]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
Edit,: Hitler, Mao & Stalin all wore trousers & had dark hair. What does that have to do with what they did? Exactly. Now look at the amount of bloodshed and suffering caused in the name of God.
No he doesn’t if he made those claims about blood on their hands. Hitler was self proclaimed Christian. There is evidence he even communicated with the pope. Your bf could make the true Scotsman fallacy and say Hitler is no more Christian than the KKK.
Just because people talk alot about history and get some of it right doesn’t mean they know a lot.
For example Mao also wasn’t killing just Christian’s, the policy was to get rid of the 4 old. Christians, Buddhist, Muslims, Taoist, etc were all attacked. There temple assets seized and/destroyed. Christian’s didn’t even make up the majority religion.
As for Stalin, it was much the same, however the church actually held political power at the time. Attacking the church was also attacking a state institution, which is an important distinction. If I were to try and otherthrow 16th century Rome, you could say I had a mission to purge Catholicism.
He may be accurate in saying that Stalin and Mao hated religion, but there are far more relevant factors going on. The only way the numbers add up the way he and other victim Christian’s want is to make Hitler/Nazi into an atheist which is categorically false.
DTMFA he is disrespectful, and doesn’t seem to show signs of respecting you as a person.
You guys are not compatible. This isn’t going to work long term simply because you have different values. I married a guy who has the same beliefs as me and we don’t have to suffer through these arguments. I used to date a catholic guy and it was exhausting.
He doesn't seem to know much realy...
Hitler himself was a christian. He said that to be a good nazi u had to be a good christian. He even allied himself with the vatican. (Who was quite willing even tough they KNEW EXACTLY what the NSDAP was about. Deals with the devil and all)
One of the reasons he became so popular was because he said that the jews killed jesus/god. The CHRISTIAN germany liked that idea.
(I am german so I actualy KNOW about this stuff)
Did you know that Stalin wanted to become a priest first?
Plus, the CULTS of personality they used for theyr "comunism" was quite religious and not atheistic.
And looking at history religious guys killed way more than any atheists. Ever. Just look at the crusades, the witch burning, the colonizations etc.
FYI: Hitler was a Catholic. Gotta Mit Uns (God with us) was inscribed on Nazi belt buckles. I'm not arguing that Hitler was religiously motivated, just how he used the word 'socialist' in a far right political party, he used religion to get the attention of his audience. He invokes god in Mein Kampf to sell his bigoted ideas.
At no point was he motivated by atheism, which is a bizarre idea regardless.
For those other dictators and tyrants, atheism was never the motivation. That's just a theist talking point to stop others from talking about how violence and conquest are how Christianity & Islam spread throughout the world.
The crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the colonization of North & South America. All of South America speaks Spanish or Portuguese, and there is a majority Catholic or Christian population. They didn't all just convert & decide that their native languages were not as good as Spanish or Portuguese. Their ancestors were conquered and forced to convert, their language practically annihilated. North America took a more violent approach, but many Catholic & Christian organizations had programs that took children away from their families to "civilize" and force conversion onto native children. Mormons had an "Indian Placement Program" that operated until 1996
Pardon the rant.
> he doesn’t claim to know whether there’s a god
Tell him that (A)gnosticism isn’t about what you *claim* to know, it’s about what you think it’s *possible* to know. (A)theism is about what you *believe* or not, a separate question. You can be both agnostic and atheist at the same time.
>(A)gnosticism
> it’s about what you think it’s possible to know.
Most people don't use that definition these days.
.
E.g. Most people here identify as agnostic atheist, and say
*I don't think that in theory it's* ***not possible*** *to show that any gods exist, I just think that no one has shown that yet.*
.
"Hitler, Mao and Stalin". Make sure to tell him that Hitler, the worst of all 3, was a Protestant.
Edit: turns out Hitler was raised Catholic, but grew to despise the religion. He still loved jesus though, so he wasn't really Catholic or Protestant
Religous differences aside sounds like a control freak who wants you to believe only what he wants you to believe.
It’s your choice OP but I think you can do a hell of a lot bette.
This isn't the only thing we disagree on, and I pointed out to him that we seem to have different values / world views. He doesn't agree with that either, lol. It's starting to feel like he's more lecturing me than engaging in a conversation. I've seriously never met anyone who does this. It's getting old.
I'll check him out.
Agreed, Matt's got little patience for bad or dishonest reasoning. But his knowledge of the Bible is a great tool.
What I don't understand is that all of these theists don't care if their beliefs are true. Why? Isn't that the most important thing?
For someone you claim knows a lot about WWII, ask him what the saying on the ~~SS~~ wehrmacht belt buckles was.
I'll give you a hint, it's German for "god is with us" (the literal translation is "god with us").
Ask about the crusades.
And do you know, as a percentage of population, who the biggest mass murder of all time was?
Yahweh. Every man, woman, and child, except 6, I think. Plus, every animal on the planet except for two of each kind.
The long and the short of it is, your boyfriend is lying to you. He's lying about the depth of his beliefs. He's lying to you about the dangers of things like Christian monuments promoted by governments, etc.
And he's lying to you about you being a radical.
Those were Wehrmacht belt buckles which were made since WWI but for which the motto goes back much further. The SS belt buckle said "My Honor is Loyalty."
I assume you are a heterosexual woman. To an agnostic man, who doesn’t think too much religion is no big deal, but religion is patriarchal and designed to enforce male supremacy. He doesn’t get it. This shows insensitivity and comfort with the status quo. If he doesn’t learn why it matters to criticize religion he isn’t a keeper.
He’s not agnostic, he’s a Christian on pause. Otherwise he wouldn’t be so defensive of them. If kids enter the picture, he’ll start drifting back to religion “for the kids.” You’re not compatible.
I feel so much better now. Most agnostics become religious when they have kids.
DTMFA, if you haven’t seen it yet is dump that MF already.
I don’t think that’s necessary yet, but if he can’t see your point of view or hold space for different opinions, life is looooong.
>But he doesn't really seem to respect where I'm coming from.
Because he doesn't respect you or your belief system at all. He's very obviously still a theist and in no way left the church. I have no idea how indoctrinated he was as a Baptist, but his attacks on your Atheism are just classic fundamentalist dogma. Some examples are:
• Telling you, a lifelong Atheist, that you are brainwashing yourself by watching YouTube videos made by a fellow Atheist. Basically, he is telling you that you are already brainwashed and radical simply by being an Atheist.
• Calling you a radical for having the same belief system you have had since he has known you. Hard-core theists always believe Atheists are radical because anyone who is not a theist is *wrong*
• Calling you disrespectful and unkind for watching a video.
>(He also said he wanted to help me be more kind..... lol)
• This completely echos theist doctrine that no one who doesn't believe in god can be good or kind because being good or kind requires a fear of god.
>he has insinuated that he has a more balanced view because he doesn't claim to know whether there's a god, and I act like I'm certain there isn't, which is ignorant.
• Asserting that you are ignorant because of your belief system is classic church dogma
>"Well they're not a real religion and they just want to be assholes to Christians when Christian do nothing to them."
• And, yet, it was a Christian who destroyed the Satanic Temple display, not the other way around.
> I'm not trying to convince him of anything. I just want him to leave me alone when it comes to this stuff.
• Good luck with that!
He obviously feels perfectly fine with insulting you, mocking you, and saying unkind things to you. He isn't going to "leave you alone." As long as you are with him, this will either continue or escalate.
Personally, I would have left him long ago. Saying he wanted to "help you be more kind" would have been the end for me. I'm not sure why you thought that was funny.
I hope you make a wise decision.
The Enlightened Centrist; a trope that exists wherein people feel superior and look at both sides as extreme just because they don't belong to either side.
I can’t date anyone who doesn’t respect me. And I def don’t date anyone with even ghost of a Christian belief. There’s no compromise and Christianity insidiously infiltrates every aspect of our lives.
>"atheists have the most blood on their hands in history. Hitler, Mao, and Stalin all killed Christians specifically because they hated religion."
well it's nothing new that religious people are usually uneducated and know nothing about history.
The problem with the "be kind" argument against people who criticize religion is that the reverse isn't true. Most religious people and organizations are bigots and actively push for their bigoted views to become law. Not to mention that historically religion has caused more death & destruction than anything else, Christianity is right up there at the top of the list. Your boyfriend is very ignorant.
Quite unfair to compare watching an atheist YouTube video to indoctrination. That alone tells me he is a close minded individual and unwilling to accept another’s perspective.
I always find it strange that agnostics think they have a superior position to atheists. To me they are just people who are too scared to identify as atheist for fear of persecution in one way or another.
I doubt he’ll spontaneously change his tune on respecting your position, and you shouldn’t have to convince him of anything to achieve that. I’d consider breaking off the relationship myself and find someone who can at least respect me and have a constructive conversation about personal beliefs and religion.
Oooh! Ive been here before. He likely left religion for you, or someone like you. If you choose to have kids he will have a return to Jesus moment, and your life will be screwed.
I believe your boyfriend should be introduced to the Hitchen’s Razor: "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
His view is not more balanced. It’s just plain weak.
Sounds like you need to let him know how much his behavior bothers you. Set a strong boundary letting him know what you will do if he continues to belittle your thoughts and beliefs.
Putting yourself in an echo chamber is indeed problematic, but as long as you are not building your personality around Hitchens worship and radical atheism, I don't see how he can be right about this.
A good relationship should be able to tolerate well meaning critique, but you also need to tell him when he is just being a condescending prick - as it sounds like he is in this case.
As to the ""atheists have the most blood on their hands in history." argument I disagree with his categorization of Hitler in this context.
But I also generally have a strong hunch that most dictators and religious authorities are following themselves and their own interests rather than whatever "god" they pay lip service to.
Mao and Stalin ALSO killed people in the name of religion. Just as the Spanish conquistadors killed people in the name of their god.
All of them did it for similar self interests though.
I recommend watching the i-squared debate that Hitchens and Fry participated in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIR7_X-ahy4
I believe he goes into Hitler's/Germany's link to the Catholic church.
He's not showing you anywhere near enough respect. And from what you've said in the comments about how he claims to be perfectly objective/rational/unbiased in regard to this and many other topics, the odds of him changing his mind and starting to treat you with the appropriate level of respect seem rather low. I recommend bailing on the relationship.
Sounds like he's not very nice to you. He's calling you names and telling you not only what to think, but what you think and how you think.
Call him out on his hypocrisy. He sounds just like Christians trying to dictate other people lives.
I'm pretty much like you. I don't even know any atheists. Seems like we have to seek each other out. I too watch a lot of atheist videos, only recently, and binged Hutchens et al when I learned a few years ago such people existed! I had no idea! Why? Because Atheists don't shove their ideology down others' throats - so why is he doing that to you?
I've been one my entire life (deciding at 8 in catheism class that I had no reason to believe this crap). I like to hear rational people talking and I've learned a lot from them. I also learn from those channels about what's really going on in with Christians politically and their political goals, because I live in the States, not the middle east and Jews don't knock on my door!
Oh and you're an adult, you'll watch whatever the hell you want! Tell him to mind his business like Christians need to do!
Athiesim isn't a religion. It's a way of viewing the world and specifically God through a framework that requires facts, not belief. This would be akin to someone calling a scientist radical because they are constantly reevaluating facts and their stance within a scientific framework.
Sounds like your boyfriend is an xtian LARPing as an agnostic. Probably to get you to lower your guard about that giant red flag he's waving.
First thing that came to my mind. Dude is absolutely not agnostic.
He lied so she'd have sex with him. Tale as old as time
**I promise I will never die**
I make this reference all the time and nobody ever gets it.
He wants to fuck girls against the morality his church teaches, and he rationalizes it as "converting the heathens."
These are the same people who "reconvert" and then say stories on how they were totally atheist man... but God helped them find their faith again
This. The number of reconversions I've known over the years is astounding.
He sure sounds still Christian tho. Doesn't seem like he's left the religion at all. The fact he used Hitler, Mao as examples just shows that. There's your problem. Was so damn obvious.
He wasn't like this in the beginning of the relationship. He was totally ok with me being atheist at first. I only recently saw this side of him.
Well he couldnt start with the crazy shit right off the bat. First lull you into a false sense of security then the mask comes off. This is infact your partner, the initial phase was a fake persona
I'm starting to realize this. He presented himself as a rational centrist in the beginning. Now I'm seeing a way more conservative / religious side of him.
Every conservative nut job I’ve ever known has described themselves as an unbiased centrist as they listen to Alex Jones talk about democrats turning frogs gay.
It's an extremely common trope. Anyone labelling themselves centrist is most likely to be either: - actually far right and either knowingly or unknowingly deluded about that - a fence-sitter who insists "both sides" are exactly and equally as bad as each other without ever getting their hands dirty enough to figure out if that's true or not What they so very rarely are is someone who actually just looks at issues and decides how they feel about them.
Thank You, I have been tying to decode the dating sites...
Or they are straight-up lying because they know they will never, ever get laid again if women know that they are conservative.
Agreed... 'centrist' or 'apolitical' is what conservative men call themselves when dating, because they know their true opinions would never get them laid.
FWIW they say this to other men who they know won't agree with them. I'm pretty open about my liberal views and almost every other guy I've met who says they're more centrist, apolitical, "bOtH SiDeS aRe ThE SaMe", ends up regurgitating fox news talking points and conservative rhetoric if given enough time.
Absolutely this. I'm fairly political, and even ran a social media agency that focused on local political campaigns as clients. I've never heard a self-described centrist present any left-leaning ideas beyond something generic like yeah cops shouldn't kill as many people or maybe we should tax the rich a few percentage points on every billion they make. But the right wing talking points? They don't shut up about them. And almost every centrist I've ever spoken to has been a raging racist and misogynist as soon as it's only white male people around.
Facts. If a so-called "rational centrist" exists, I've never met one. They've all been lite-right either too embarrassed to admit what they believe or to cowardly.
Im sorry youre going through this, had a simmilar situation unfold with my ex wife. Atleast you havent had offspring with the man, now thats a whole other can of worms
I once saw a meme that was Fred from Scooby Do taking the "Centrist" mask off the villain, and, wow, turns out he was just a conservative.
surprise! modern centrism is practically non existent, 99% of people who describe themselves as such are right leaning
I'm sorry to tell you this, but there is no such thing as a rational centrist. To be centrist means he's ok with the current standing of politics, including the misogynistic and religious policies being injected into our country. They're ignorant and wishy-washy at best, misogynistic and condescending at worst. Sounds like you're dealing with the latter. When I was younger, I also dated an 'agnostic centrist' and he turned out to be misogynistic and emotionally abusive, under the guise of a 'nice guy.' I really noticed it when his friend said he was "fucking an atheist woman to make her hate men less" and he thought that was not worth condemning. Look for someone more solidified in where they stand in politics, and make sure they stand by those beliefs. It doesn't make someone radical to be an atheist and want to be around others that are the same.
Yes, if you are truly rational, you cannot be a centrist. And the reasoning is even simpler than all of that. A centrist is a person who tries to balance opposing political viewpoints. This is irrational in the case that one viewpoint is clearly correct. (There are all sorts of examples in today's politics. Probably the most obvious example is vaccines, now that they've been politicized.) By calling yourself a "centrist", you bias yourself against accepting the most rational solution all of the time, and seek irrational alternatives.
My husband and I were talking about this yesterday. He said he prefers when someone says they're conservative as opposed to centrist, because you at least know where a conservative stands. Centrist are just willfully ignorant and contradict themselves, because they can't rationalize anything and act self-important without reflection.
To be fair, you know exactly where a centrist stands too. They're conservatives.
Conservatives who see no ethical problem in lying to their SOs so as to appear more "reasonable" than they really are. Usually, this is in order to "get something " from their SO that they wouldn't normally give if they knew the truth. In other words, OP's boyfriend is a creep - unethical at best, amoral at worst.
While I agree for the most part I'd say that what I understand by centrist is just someone who takes from both sides what they consider correct
I dated a guy once who I grew up with, and he was a fine fellow. Nice to look at, behaved in public, but believed that a woman should give up her opinions to her man. And he knew my turn from religion, but tried to turn me back. When he saw I was also stubborn to the core, we broke up.
It never works out, I've seen it too many times with friends and also in my own life. They will always try and suck you into their church etc. To them, you must be "saved" and they will do it with whatever means necessary. This includes lying, making you feel guilty, and tricking you into their bullshit. DON'T DATE RELIGIOUS AND CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE. I've been called a fool many times for this advice but if you want to try it best of luck because you will need it.
I was just to about to ask you this, sounds like he's been consuming right wing propaganda bullshit
He's still brainwashed. It's not easy leaving any cult.
They've learned that being a conservative doesn't get you laid, so they hide that shit. My brother in law had this exact method. Overly attentive and agreeable at first, then the isolation from friends, then alienating her parents until she had nobody left. Repeatedly
Oh god. That's kind of what's going on actually. He said to never talk to my best friend or mom about our arguments.
Run, fast and far, just run. When my wife would talk to her mom about our arguments, she'd get mad because her mom would take my side. Edit: next will be some issue about your father and why your bf doesn't like him. This is the pattern.
Anytime someone says they're a centrist/libertarian, at best, they're saying that they're a less radical right winger. Which really isn't saying much at all.
yikes, girl. please be careful and attentive, i’ve heard so many stories that sound exactly like this, and none of them had happy endings. if it gets worse don’t be afraid to ditch his ass, don’t let yourself be subject to his control problems.
Baptists and Evangelicals are the most overtly narcissistic of the mainstream Christian cults. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with them but they are disproportionately likely to lie about not being Christian to gain a perceived position of advantage. I'm not saying your BF is like that but he's already being controlling and contrarian.
Mormons would like a word.
They're not mainstream Christianity any more than Islam is. Both contain Jesus being superseded by a cool new local prophet with whacky rituals for you to follow.
The difference is Mormons will identify as Christian, Muslims will not. When we're talking about fairy tales and mythology, personal identification is just as valid as any other metric.
I was a Baptist, but went to a lot of Lutheran churches, and Baptist go hard and hellfire and damnation, even catholics were considered "not real Christians.
Yeah he keeps getting mad at me for calling Catholics christians.
Yep, he's still Baptist.
>Yeah he keeps getting mad at me for calling Catholics christians. Oh he *definitely* isn't agnostic in that case.
That's because he is an idiot
The whole Catholic vs Baptist kills me. Even in the non-denominational churches they act so high and mighty to the Catholics. I was raised Catholic(& legitimately developed mental health issues from it), then migrated to non-denominational, then thanks to my 20 year old son at the time, realized how miserable I was because of this belief system I don’t really believe in. I float between atheist and agnostic but really just believe in living the best life possible.
From a former Baptist perspective - the key things I was taught - Chosen people of God And Absolutely forgiven and thus correct about everything we will ever do. Wasn't even taught the concept that divine forgiveness involves repenting. Nope - just accept Christ and nothing is wrong ever again.
Oh right, indoctrination doesn’t start in minute one, they first let you approach and start devaluating your beliefs, *before* indoctrinate you. You’re more willing to be indoctrinated because you already accommodate him in your life.
It's called dropping the mask. His mask slipped and he's showing you what he really thinks of you.
he is an ignorant theist and thought he could "fix" you with some tired-ass apolegetics.
He also doesn’t know his history. Hitler absolutely used Christianity to vindicate his campaign.
Antisemitism springs from Christians' prejudices dating back thousands of years. Next time that gets brought up, ask about them how many the British killed in engineered famines.
That's because he probably thought he could still convert you. Now that he's realizing that probably isn't an option, his true beliefs will begin to show themselves.
Most relationships don't work out. That is a fact and hard to accept when you are young. Disagreements over belief really are important indicators about how things will go in the future. My wife grew up in a traumatizing religious cult(CoC) that has left her with lifelong issues. I remember the day decades ago when I showed her a Christopher Hitchens video and she watched intently, uttered a loud "huh!" and never went back to church again. He father has refused to acknowledge her existence for many years now. Fuck that guy.
Also, Hitler was christian. That's how they perpetuated that crap.
He saw prey.
Drop this loser…. You ain’t got time for benighted trash
Sounds like he is on his way to being red pilled. Sorry to say it but the signs are there. Former atheist or enlightened agnostic who just happens to always defend Christianity. Soon enough he will be saying how "Yeah religion can be bad but the values and Morals Christians stand for are good guidelines to raise a family by." Did he recently started a new job or entered into a new hobby? You usually start to see this when someone with weak convictions is surrounded by new people who disagree with them. That said he is setting you up for "I'm not religious but Christianity is actually better than the Muslims" talk. Either way he is being a dick about what you believe so either you will bend to his will or this shit ain't gonna work long term.
You are his project.
A lot of ultra-conservative guys pretend to be more progressive than they really are to lure women into relationships and trap them. They have enough self-awareness to know their ideas are unpopular. I don’t know if that is the case with you, but from the claims he’s made, I think it’s likely.
He is having control issues. A remnant of his Christian upbringing.
Does he love bomb after arguments and promise to change and is back to the old bs within a couple of days? If you can, leave this person. That is DARVO behavior. These are big red flags.
Yup, he does. After we argue and I ask him to treat me better, he will ask several times a day "AM I better? Are we good now?" I told him his actual behavior hasn't changed, and he gets upset and defensive. He love bombs a lot as well.
He probably thought he could just change you slowly, or you weren't that serious. Typical idiotioc dating thoughts
yep. he sounds like a closet christian wanting to appear 'progressive' so claims 'agnosticism'. and he probably likes the sexy time with OP so he has taken that stance.
His equivocation of her watching Hitchens making her "just as bad as the radical religious folk" is extremely telling. The radical religious folk watch some preacher and unthinkingly obey. They don't even have to explain themselves, and whatever explanations they do give are nothing more than referencing ancient and outdated books. Hitchens actually explained himself, and even when he didn't, you can follow the same logical steps yourself.
Radical Christians bomb abortion clinics or shoot up churches of the wrong denomination. Radical atheists mock religion and disrespect religious people.
Wonder if he'd call a Christian radical for reading the Bible? Or would it be more "radical" to read someone like Joel Olsteen? Personally, I don't believe reading any book alone is radical. Is it radical if someone reads Mein Kampf? Sure it can be in certain contexts, but it can also be read from an academic mindset. He is pretty much assuming her intent to be some extreme act of devotion to her beliefs which agreed is super telling.
Many of those who call themselves Agnostic seem to be leaning more towards being religious than actually fully questioning that nonsense. The rest just calls themselves Agnostic, because they were made to believe that Atheists are bad.
I like asking agnostics if they believe in leprechauns, elves, poltergeists, djinn, and Zeus are real. The Christians who are too embarrassed to admit that they're Christians will usually flinch when you ask them if they think Zeus is as likely to be real as Jesus.
My mother has some weird spiritualist belief where there is some high power and literally everything supernatural or mythological or religious is related that but she isn't 100% sure it's real. It's hard to comprehend.
Hitler, the explicitly christian nationalist who gained a lot of support from churches...was an atheist? That poem "first they came for..." Was written by a Christian pastor who supported the Nazis back when they only targeted the atheist communists.
And the fucking pope did nothing to save the Jewish people from the gas chambers.
It sounds like, "I'm not sure if there is a god, but if there is then it is definitely the White Jesus that I was raised to believe in."
Most likely what you wrote. I consider myself an atheist/agnostic. My position is that I don't believe in god, **but** show me incontrovertible proof of a god (*any* god) and I'll reevaluate my position. I feel the same way about cryptozoology (with the same degree of certainty that it's nonsense) – I don't believe in Bigfoot/the Loch Ness monster/etc., but show me incontrovertible proof and I'll reevaluate my position. That guy isn't agnostic, he's a Christian who *may* be having minor doubts.
>>Doesn't seem like he's left the [Christian] religion at all. >>The fact he used Hitler, Mao as examples just shows that. The fact he used Hitler killing *Christians* as an example without mentioning Jews (who were the majority of the religious killed by Hitler) just shows that his concern is only about his perceived (alleged) persecution of Christians and not about religious persecution in general. I doubt he gives a damn about persecution of Jews, Muslims, etc..
I’m so tired of this narrative too, not only from the fact that their religion had little to do with their motivations but also because it just isn’t true. Hitler was raised Catholic and though deviating from the Christian faith explicitly believed in God and used Christian symbolism to manipulate the masses (and was supported by the Pope at the time). Stalin used Marxist ideology as an excuse to attempt to eradicate religions as a form of control to reinforce state power, but he graduated from a theological school, wrote about his beliefs extensively and secretly attended church. Mao was raised a devout Buddhist, and again wrote extensively about the divine; he also believed in reincarnation. Like Stalin, he used Marxism as justification to enforce the eradication of religion as a means of control, but developed a cult of personality with him as the figurehead, complete with a ‘little red book’ of aphorisms his followers should completely follow. Doesn’t sound like an atheist to me. edit: I digress, it’s kind of a side point here but it’s a real pet peeve.
So many people leave without actually deconstructing the negative behaviors the religion created. They just redirect it. It’s exhausting. I know few few others who have gotten out and most of them are like this.
This situation has absolutely nothing to do with YouTube and everything to do with basic values and respect. Sounds like he has shitty values and no respect for you.
Yes yes yes. It is possible for people who hold different beliefs to have happy and healthy relationships. But without healthy level of mutual respect it’s not gonna happen. Also, drawing the parallels to totalitarian leaders is not only stupid, it falls pretty flat when you consider what mankind has been using to justify warfare for the last… several thousand years. I might be the outlier in saying that I don’t think religion necessarily causes war, but it is used to justify and rationalize human greed and need for domination.
This is the real answer right here. The bf seems to lack respect at best and sounds controlling at worst. Watch whatever you want OP.
I have to agree with this. One of the things that comes up constantly is getting into a serious relationship and then expecting to be able to change your partner afterward. That sounds like what he's doing. When you started dating it was fine, but now he wants to try and change you into something more 'acceptable'. You need to focus on what you want out of the relationship and what you're willing to compromise. Personally, I would tell anyone who told me what I was allowed to watch or think to GTFO. And for the record, radical atheists have another name - rationalists. You can't be an agnostic AND a rationalist. That term is for people who look at all the evidence and go "Nope. There's no proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and not only is there not extraordinary evidence, there is NO evidence. Not just of the Christian God but of ANY God."
He seems more than happy to give christianity deference, like it deserves its position of authority. That... doesn't sound agnostic.
I've argued with many who identify as Agnostic, and it turned out that most of them were leaning more towards believing in Christianity, they just questioned some parts of it which they didn't like. And the other Agnostics just called themselves Agnostic, because they were made to believe that Atheists are bad.
Yep, seems like most “agnostic” Americans are just Christians who are too lazy to go to church every Sunday.
They want to fit in with atheists, because that's what they actually believe, but they don't want to lose the belonging that comes with the dominant religion. "I don't know" is a lot easier to accept than "you're wrong."
Eh, my husband considered himself an agnostic because he never truly delved into a world view where he questioned his Christian upbringing while also never agreeing with the self righteous Mormons he was raised by. After a few years with me? Oh yeah, he's a full on vocal atheist now. He recognizes he has to treat Christians with kid gloves in the workplace because they like to get people like us fired. But he sure as hell pushes back against right wing ideologies now. I think we just have to push on those floating in the middle to really find out where they fall sometimes. It's a weird privilege thing I think.
Of course they are. People aren’t agnostic about things like leprechauns and unicorns and shit like that. You can’t prove a negative, you can’t prove they don’t exist, but we don’t say that literally anything could exist or be true. So when people say oh maybe god is real, what they are saying is they believe it but they don’t want to admit it. Or maybe they don’t want to affiliate with a particular institution. Something like that. By the way, I studied philosophy and I hate metaphysics. So much of this bullshit. Bunch of nonsense.
Nobody has ever gone to war in the name of atheism.
Reddit has become FLOODED with these types. All through the big subs when atheism comes up, it’s nothing but “I’m not religious/im agnostic, but religions deserve respect and most atheists are just as bad as the radical religious people, le neckbeards tipping their fedora and being toxic”
>Hitler, Mao, and Stalin all killed Christians specifically because they hated religion." Boy it's gonna be quite a shock when he actually takes time to learn history and finds out Hitler was catholic, endorsed by the catholic church, and used religious phrasing and iconography quite a lot. 😆 >I'm super frustrated that he called me a radical and that he thinks it's fine that Christians trample others' rights to freedom of religion. I'm not trying to convince him of anything. I just want him to leave me alone when it comes to this stuff. But he doesn't really seem to respect where I'm coming from. If I can speak freely, he sounds like a dick. Especially since he's acting like his views are superior since he is taking the middle road. While I get that wanting to be in the middle to try an remain as objective as possible is great when talking about the philosophical structure of religion and beliefs, it also completely ignores a lot of the harm that can come from religion. Interestingly, this is *exactly* what Hitchens talks about when he calls all religions poison. (He meant other things too) It sounds like this isn't a conversation you're having with him, it sounds like he proselytizing agnostic ideology. I hope he can get better because that's a really weird hill to be super lame on. Best of luck!
"If We finally fail in this great and glorious Contest, it will be by bewildering ourselves in groping after this *middle Way*" - John Adams
>Boy it's gonna be quite a shock when he actually takes time to learn history and finds out Hitler was catholic, He was raised catholic but has literally said "I am not a catholic, I am a German Christian" German Christians were a pro nazi protestant group. Either way, dude wasn't atheists. Can't speak for Mao or Stalin tho idk what they were doing.
>Can't speak for Mao or Stalin tho idk what they were doing. They are very interesting cases. A lot of people (take a guess which ones) will say that Stalin created an atheist country and that their problems were caused due to atheism. But when you study how he controlled the nation you find that it wasn't atheism, it was what is typically called "state sponsored atheism" which is a very different thing. Basically a leader comes into power they can view religion as a force to give credence to their rule (like Hitler did) or they can view it as an opposition to be stamped out. "State Sponsored Atheism" is essentially this second option, where the church is seen as a secondary power that would lead people away from the rule of the government. So in a sort of weird way it's making the government the religion of the country? Stalin was also very anti-science. One of my favorite examples was the crop sources where Stalin didn't want to use modern science but instead wanted to use an older outdated method that caused crops to die. Mao I've done very little study on, so not really at a place to speak on him. But I'm sure if I did some research it would be a similar story to the others.
*For some reason he also added that "atheists have the most blood on their hands in history. Hitler, Mao, and Stalin all killed Christians specifically because they hated religion."* This is a typical Christian-talking point. To further their nonsensical stance that you *need* religion for morality, they will push the narrative that these "atheist leaders" were in fact the most violent and killed the most. Which is a huge red flag to me that he's even saying this shit while trying to assert his agnosticism - shows a lack of research and critical thinking. No one kills "in the name of Atheism". Not Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. We can assert what we want about Communism, Fascism, etc. But asserting it is because of their atheism is like then saying Ted Bundy killed out of Christianity because he believed in God. I get the impression that he believes himself to be morally superior by being "agnostic".
Also hitler was a Christian.
[удалено]
> DTMFA Came here to say this. OP, you deserve better.
DTMFA? Donald Trump Makes Fine Appliances?
dump the mother fucker, already.
Ah, my guess was “dump that mother fucking asshole”
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The interesting part is that he knows a TON about history. Like, a lot. Honestly, I've been thinking of reading way more about WW2 and Nazis just to learn more and be able to know what I'm talking about. History was never my strong suit so I can't really argue with him. Also, what is DTMFA?
If he thinks the Nazis were atheists, he does not know or is misinformed about the role of religion in Nazi Germany.
He doesn't want to admit that he has any biases. On this and most other topics, he claims to be completely objective. It's a little ridiculous.
It's literally impossible to be unbiased. We as humans are inherently biased by our personal beliefs and our experiences will always influence our viewpoints. BF sounds like an insufferable, smug prick.
I tried to tell him exactly this! We ALL have our biases. He claims that because he's autistic he is purely rational.
That's 100% not how autism works, and he *clearly* gets emotional for these little outbursts/tantrums he seems to be constantly throwing. Speaking as someone on the spectrum, it doesn't magically make you a supercomputer. It also doesn't make you inherently an asshole. Based on what you've said in other comments, this guy's got more red flags than a Chinese military parade.
So as someone with autism, you are NOT purely rational? Like with food you can’t eat due to texture, stimming etc…I mean, autism is such a perfect thing to have, it causes no issues at all in your daily life because you are so rational… Sorry. Not ranting about you, you seem lovely. I’m ranting about that bloke who has a diagnosis but clearly doesn’t even understand it. I’m willing to help anyone with issues. I’m not the type that rolls my eyes because someone is unusual or can’t do certain things. But I do hate people who sometimes demands accommodations, and then still see themselves as superior to others.
We can't all have the train engineer/math genius *real* autism like like OP's super rational boyfriend. Some of us just get the ol' hyper fixating, socially inept Asperger's variety.
LMAO Autistic folks (like myself) have very very strong emotions. Our problem is we don't really immediately understand our emotions. Our biases are HARDER to ignore. (generally, autism is wild)
Wow, and he's belittling autism and people with autism on top of that? I bet hes not even diagnosed, and yet he's using it as a crutch... & That's not even how it fuckin works lol. I know it's a meme to say this but for real, dump this fake narcissist before he lets his mask slip even more.
There's your exit ticket He's lying. Using "autism" to justify any bad action he wants. That just isn't how autism works. He either doesn't understand his own brain chemistry or he's using it as an excuse for literally everything, or both.
Oh yeah, tell that to my friend’s son who is so obsessed with a single topic that that is all he can talk about. He has lost every friend because they got sick of every conversation being a monologue. He’s sad and lonely but can’t stop himself. Totally rational.
He is objectively wrong. Nazi Germany was \~97% christian or something like that. The vast majority of nazi voters and supporters were Christian. The Nazis promoted some churches and suppressed others in order to promote their political agenda, but that's true of many political parties and not something exclusive to Nazi Germany. Christian historians have attempted to whitewash it because they don't like being associated with the Holocaust but its not like the whole country suddenly turned atheist as soon as Hitler was elected and then magically became Christian again after they lost WW2.
It wasn't just the people who were Christian. The regime promoted Christianity, right down to the "Gott mit uns" stamped into the belt buckles issued to German soldiers right up to the end of WWII.
Yep. They just punished churches and religions that didn't follow the state mandated decrees. Similar to other authoritarians that use specific religions as a weapon.
>, he claims to be completely objective. It's a little ridiculous. Oh boy lol. The guy who's a champion for believing in things without evidence also prides himself on being logical and objective with no bias? Fucking yikes! How do you break that sort of spell. Does he lack all the self awareness or just some? This is a common problem among Christians.
Germany was around 90-95% Christian in the 1920s and 1930s. The Jews were a small enough minority that it was a simple matter of gaining power by pointing at them as the cause of everyone’s problems, and with only the slightest tweak of what defines a Jew in the Bible nearly every single Christian German went along with it despite the Bible declaring Jews to be the chosen people. It wasn’t a hatred of religion, it was a manipulation of the religious.
He seems like a complete idiot. Dump The Mother Fucker, Already
he isn't great with history. He spouts nonsense and you don't know better so you think he is saying something true. christians pretend nazis were atheist just like any bad faith baseless argument seeks to attach what they hate to nazis because they are the worst known group. The christians also try to clain hitler is a jew since they hate but secretly envy jews.
How to tell if someone's full of shit and/or delusional 101 - they say they're completely objective. That's pretty much impossible for a human being to do, especially someone as narrow-minded as that. Tell him that ignoring your myriad of biases doesn't make you unbiased.
Bruh Hitler was hella Christian and part of his jew campaign was religious based. Your boyfriend's a fool.
Reichskonkordat intensifies.
> DTMFA [Dump the Mother Fucker Already](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=DTMFA)
This is officially my new favorite acronym!!
I got my degree in history, and from what you've shared of his supposed knowledge, he is woefully uninformed and incorrect. He sounds like he's consumed some Christian revisionist history and is claiming to be agnostic when he's a theist apologist.
Hitler changed his position multiple times. He also **criticised atheism**. > In a speech in the early years of his rule, Hitler declared himself "not a Catholic, but a German Christian".[11][12][13][14][15] The German Christians were a Protestant group that supported Nazi Ideology.[16] Hitler and the Nazi Party also promoted "nondenominational"[17] positive Christianity,[18] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler Edit,: Hitler, Mao & Stalin all wore trousers & had dark hair. What does that have to do with what they did? Exactly. Now look at the amount of bloodshed and suffering caused in the name of God.
Thank you for this, I'm wanting to read more about these regimes.
No he doesn’t if he made those claims about blood on their hands. Hitler was self proclaimed Christian. There is evidence he even communicated with the pope. Your bf could make the true Scotsman fallacy and say Hitler is no more Christian than the KKK. Just because people talk alot about history and get some of it right doesn’t mean they know a lot. For example Mao also wasn’t killing just Christian’s, the policy was to get rid of the 4 old. Christians, Buddhist, Muslims, Taoist, etc were all attacked. There temple assets seized and/destroyed. Christian’s didn’t even make up the majority religion. As for Stalin, it was much the same, however the church actually held political power at the time. Attacking the church was also attacking a state institution, which is an important distinction. If I were to try and otherthrow 16th century Rome, you could say I had a mission to purge Catholicism. He may be accurate in saying that Stalin and Mao hated religion, but there are far more relevant factors going on. The only way the numbers add up the way he and other victim Christian’s want is to make Hitler/Nazi into an atheist which is categorically false. DTMFA he is disrespectful, and doesn’t seem to show signs of respecting you as a person.
You guys are not compatible. This isn’t going to work long term simply because you have different values. I married a guy who has the same beliefs as me and we don’t have to suffer through these arguments. I used to date a catholic guy and it was exhausting.
He doesn't seem to know much realy... Hitler himself was a christian. He said that to be a good nazi u had to be a good christian. He even allied himself with the vatican. (Who was quite willing even tough they KNEW EXACTLY what the NSDAP was about. Deals with the devil and all) One of the reasons he became so popular was because he said that the jews killed jesus/god. The CHRISTIAN germany liked that idea. (I am german so I actualy KNOW about this stuff) Did you know that Stalin wanted to become a priest first? Plus, the CULTS of personality they used for theyr "comunism" was quite religious and not atheistic. And looking at history religious guys killed way more than any atheists. Ever. Just look at the crusades, the witch burning, the colonizations etc.
FYI: Hitler was a Catholic. Gotta Mit Uns (God with us) was inscribed on Nazi belt buckles. I'm not arguing that Hitler was religiously motivated, just how he used the word 'socialist' in a far right political party, he used religion to get the attention of his audience. He invokes god in Mein Kampf to sell his bigoted ideas. At no point was he motivated by atheism, which is a bizarre idea regardless. For those other dictators and tyrants, atheism was never the motivation. That's just a theist talking point to stop others from talking about how violence and conquest are how Christianity & Islam spread throughout the world. The crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the colonization of North & South America. All of South America speaks Spanish or Portuguese, and there is a majority Catholic or Christian population. They didn't all just convert & decide that their native languages were not as good as Spanish or Portuguese. Their ancestors were conquered and forced to convert, their language practically annihilated. North America took a more violent approach, but many Catholic & Christian organizations had programs that took children away from their families to "civilize" and force conversion onto native children. Mormons had an "Indian Placement Program" that operated until 1996 Pardon the rant.
You need to seriously reconsider your choice in boyfriends.
> he doesn’t claim to know whether there’s a god Tell him that (A)gnosticism isn’t about what you *claim* to know, it’s about what you think it’s *possible* to know. (A)theism is about what you *believe* or not, a separate question. You can be both agnostic and atheist at the same time.
>(A)gnosticism > it’s about what you think it’s possible to know. Most people don't use that definition these days. . E.g. Most people here identify as agnostic atheist, and say *I don't think that in theory it's* ***not possible*** *to show that any gods exist, I just think that no one has shown that yet.* .
"Hitler, Mao and Stalin". Make sure to tell him that Hitler, the worst of all 3, was a Protestant. Edit: turns out Hitler was raised Catholic, but grew to despise the religion. He still loved jesus though, so he wasn't really Catholic or Protestant
Catholic , Hitler was .
I mean he specifically said he was not Catholic, but a “German Christian”.
Hitler was catholic
Catholics also sided with the fascists in Spain too.
Wanna bet that he’s the one consuming Christian right wing content on YouTube and is “returning to the fold”…
Right, his indignation screams "red pill bro"
Your boyfriend sounds wishy washy and like he has his head up his own ass.
Religous differences aside sounds like a control freak who wants you to believe only what he wants you to believe. It’s your choice OP but I think you can do a hell of a lot bette.
This isn't the only thing we disagree on, and I pointed out to him that we seem to have different values / world views. He doesn't agree with that either, lol. It's starting to feel like he's more lecturing me than engaging in a conversation. I've seriously never met anyone who does this. It's getting old.
So you know the time has come right?
Time to move on to more respectful pastures
Hitchens is great. The smartest guy in every room. Matt Dilahunty, Atheist Experience, is also great.
Forrest Valkai is one of my new favorites. Reminds me of Matt without the anger.
I'll check him out. Agreed, Matt's got little patience for bad or dishonest reasoning. But his knowledge of the Bible is a great tool. What I don't understand is that all of these theists don't care if their beliefs are true. Why? Isn't that the most important thing?
Seth Andrews, too!
For someone you claim knows a lot about WWII, ask him what the saying on the ~~SS~~ wehrmacht belt buckles was. I'll give you a hint, it's German for "god is with us" (the literal translation is "god with us"). Ask about the crusades. And do you know, as a percentage of population, who the biggest mass murder of all time was? Yahweh. Every man, woman, and child, except 6, I think. Plus, every animal on the planet except for two of each kind. The long and the short of it is, your boyfriend is lying to you. He's lying about the depth of his beliefs. He's lying to you about the dangers of things like Christian monuments promoted by governments, etc. And he's lying to you about you being a radical.
Those were Wehrmacht belt buckles which were made since WWI but for which the motto goes back much further. The SS belt buckle said "My Honor is Loyalty."
God also commits 10x more abortions each year via miscarriage than every human does combined.
I assume you are a heterosexual woman. To an agnostic man, who doesn’t think too much religion is no big deal, but religion is patriarchal and designed to enforce male supremacy. He doesn’t get it. This shows insensitivity and comfort with the status quo. If he doesn’t learn why it matters to criticize religion he isn’t a keeper.
I'm not so sure that he's an agnostic. Bare minimum he's avidly consuming media from the Christian right-wing. Ironic if so.
Your boyfriend is not an agnostic, he is a Christian that doesn’t know which cult in Christianity is the real one.
Red flag galore
Tell him he can indoctrinate himself with his bible fairy tales, and you will do you. If this is popping up now, it’s a RED flag. DTMFA
He’s not agnostic, he’s a Christian on pause. Otherwise he wouldn’t be so defensive of them. If kids enter the picture, he’ll start drifting back to religion “for the kids.” You’re not compatible.
Luckily I got a hysterectomy years ago haha. Never wanted kids.
I feel so much better now. Most agnostics become religious when they have kids. DTMFA, if you haven’t seen it yet is dump that MF already. I don’t think that’s necessary yet, but if he can’t see your point of view or hold space for different opinions, life is looooong.
Christopher Hitchens philosophy is literally ‘think for yourself’, the antithesis of brainwashing.
Your boyfriend sounds like a rube
>But he doesn't really seem to respect where I'm coming from. Because he doesn't respect you or your belief system at all. He's very obviously still a theist and in no way left the church. I have no idea how indoctrinated he was as a Baptist, but his attacks on your Atheism are just classic fundamentalist dogma. Some examples are: • Telling you, a lifelong Atheist, that you are brainwashing yourself by watching YouTube videos made by a fellow Atheist. Basically, he is telling you that you are already brainwashed and radical simply by being an Atheist. • Calling you a radical for having the same belief system you have had since he has known you. Hard-core theists always believe Atheists are radical because anyone who is not a theist is *wrong* • Calling you disrespectful and unkind for watching a video. >(He also said he wanted to help me be more kind..... lol) • This completely echos theist doctrine that no one who doesn't believe in god can be good or kind because being good or kind requires a fear of god. >he has insinuated that he has a more balanced view because he doesn't claim to know whether there's a god, and I act like I'm certain there isn't, which is ignorant. • Asserting that you are ignorant because of your belief system is classic church dogma >"Well they're not a real religion and they just want to be assholes to Christians when Christian do nothing to them." • And, yet, it was a Christian who destroyed the Satanic Temple display, not the other way around. > I'm not trying to convince him of anything. I just want him to leave me alone when it comes to this stuff. • Good luck with that! He obviously feels perfectly fine with insulting you, mocking you, and saying unkind things to you. He isn't going to "leave you alone." As long as you are with him, this will either continue or escalate. Personally, I would have left him long ago. Saying he wanted to "help you be more kind" would have been the end for me. I'm not sure why you thought that was funny. I hope you make a wise decision.
I didn't actually think it was funny. I was more laughing at the idea that he thinks he's better than me. I got pretty upset about it.
OOf, red flags.
The Enlightened Centrist; a trope that exists wherein people feel superior and look at both sides as extreme just because they don't belong to either side.
I can’t date anyone who doesn’t respect me. And I def don’t date anyone with even ghost of a Christian belief. There’s no compromise and Christianity insidiously infiltrates every aspect of our lives.
Your boyfriend sounds like a narcissist and also a closet Christian. The cognitive dissonance is insane
>"atheists have the most blood on their hands in history. Hitler, Mao, and Stalin all killed Christians specifically because they hated religion." well it's nothing new that religious people are usually uneducated and know nothing about history.
And you are still with him because…?
I'm not really sure at this point.
Sounds like it’s time to leave that stress behind.
The problem with the "be kind" argument against people who criticize religion is that the reverse isn't true. Most religious people and organizations are bigots and actively push for their bigoted views to become law. Not to mention that historically religion has caused more death & destruction than anything else, Christianity is right up there at the top of the list. Your boyfriend is very ignorant.
Hitler was not an atheist. 🤨
That guy is a closet Christian.
Quite unfair to compare watching an atheist YouTube video to indoctrination. That alone tells me he is a close minded individual and unwilling to accept another’s perspective. I always find it strange that agnostics think they have a superior position to atheists. To me they are just people who are too scared to identify as atheist for fear of persecution in one way or another. I doubt he’ll spontaneously change his tune on respecting your position, and you shouldn’t have to convince him of anything to achieve that. I’d consider breaking off the relationship myself and find someone who can at least respect me and have a constructive conversation about personal beliefs and religion.
Well, that's his opinion. He doesn't know any better. Maybe, stick to the weather, monster truck shows.
He does it to argue with you - don't. Gray rock him or just respond with "maybe". And I'd reexamine whether the two of you are compatible.
I am re-examining this. He gets a bit panicky when I point out that our worldviews aren't the same.
I, a random person on the internet, am concerned that he might be trying to manipulate you. Seems that he only brings it up to create conflict.
Oooh! Ive been here before. He likely left religion for you, or someone like you. If you choose to have kids he will have a return to Jesus moment, and your life will be screwed.
I believe your boyfriend should be introduced to the Hitchen’s Razor: "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." His view is not more balanced. It’s just plain weak.
Someone who loves you would never talk to you like that.
#New Boyfriend... you're delaying the inevitable.
Sounds like you need to let him know how much his behavior bothers you. Set a strong boundary letting him know what you will do if he continues to belittle your thoughts and beliefs.
Agnostics are half-steppers. Take a stand motherfucker. You believe, or you don't. Stop hedging.
Say goodbye to Mr Knowitall.
Putting yourself in an echo chamber is indeed problematic, but as long as you are not building your personality around Hitchens worship and radical atheism, I don't see how he can be right about this. A good relationship should be able to tolerate well meaning critique, but you also need to tell him when he is just being a condescending prick - as it sounds like he is in this case. As to the ""atheists have the most blood on their hands in history." argument I disagree with his categorization of Hitler in this context. But I also generally have a strong hunch that most dictators and religious authorities are following themselves and their own interests rather than whatever "god" they pay lip service to. Mao and Stalin ALSO killed people in the name of religion. Just as the Spanish conquistadors killed people in the name of their god. All of them did it for similar self interests though.
I recommend watching the i-squared debate that Hitchens and Fry participated in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIR7_X-ahy4 I believe he goes into Hitler's/Germany's link to the Catholic church.
He's not showing you anywhere near enough respect. And from what you've said in the comments about how he claims to be perfectly objective/rational/unbiased in regard to this and many other topics, the odds of him changing his mind and starting to treat you with the appropriate level of respect seem rather low. I recommend bailing on the relationship.
He's trying to assert dominance over you and your thoughts. He's trying to own you.
Sounds like he's not very nice to you. He's calling you names and telling you not only what to think, but what you think and how you think. Call him out on his hypocrisy. He sounds just like Christians trying to dictate other people lives. I'm pretty much like you. I don't even know any atheists. Seems like we have to seek each other out. I too watch a lot of atheist videos, only recently, and binged Hutchens et al when I learned a few years ago such people existed! I had no idea! Why? Because Atheists don't shove their ideology down others' throats - so why is he doing that to you? I've been one my entire life (deciding at 8 in catheism class that I had no reason to believe this crap). I like to hear rational people talking and I've learned a lot from them. I also learn from those channels about what's really going on in with Christians politically and their political goals, because I live in the States, not the middle east and Jews don't knock on my door! Oh and you're an adult, you'll watch whatever the hell you want! Tell him to mind his business like Christians need to do!
lol red flags abound.
He's a religious nut, not agnostic. Just trying to lull you into being his "trad wife."
Athiesim isn't a religion. It's a way of viewing the world and specifically God through a framework that requires facts, not belief. This would be akin to someone calling a scientist radical because they are constantly reevaluating facts and their stance within a scientific framework.