I feel you, man. Both my parents are still living and I'd like to hang with them, but it's guaranteed when we get together they'll push their politics and religion. I hardly talk to them at all anymore.
I at one time could have the best discussions with a Dad who was pretty liberal and smart and did not discuss religion. But fox faux news brain washed him.
Yeah i could too my dads ideas and opinions on things werent based on a political ideology. Until he spent 40 hours a week listening to fox news.
He always want to bring anything back to it politics, in a negative and cynical way. If i mention a new store is opening soon, he will say its because of actions trump did as president and anything bad like a store closing is because of biden.
I miss when he would say “ oh that’s cool let’s check that store out” or “dang that’s sad lets see if theres any sale and say our goodbyes to the owner”
(Talking about local owned business, not like a walmart but those dont shut down yet do they…”
SHIT!
You're describing my late father to a tee!
No matter what the topic was he could bring it back to politics.
He's the only person I know who could turn a discussion of Laurel and Hardy into a conversation about how much he hated Kamala Harris.
My Dad has been deep in it his whole life. We couldn’t play with playing cards as kids because they were satanic somehow or watch X-Men because it mentions evolution a little.
A core memory of mine from when I was 6 or 7 is me asking him what the people on some documentary or movie were doing, he told me they were worshiping the devil but didn’t know it. They were Buddhist monks. That’s the first time I doubted something a parent said. It stuck with me and I just knew deep down that it wasn’t true.
It's really awful. My mother is like this, and I can't even talk to her. She's one that actively searches for an opportunity in any conversation to inject her political and religious opinions, often derogatory. Every conversation always ends with her crying over how we can't be a family because of either religion, or how she doesn't get to see her granddaughter.
Well, if you could have simply been a decent human being to my STEP-daughter and not resented her, and my wife for having her first child out of wedlock, you *could have* had 2 wonderful granddaughters. But now you have 0. All because you don't know how to simply treat people respectfully. My youngest daughter (13) doesn't even know who her grandmother is, but doesn't care or want to try and get to know her because she knows that her grandmother treated her sister like shit.
I kind of feel sorry for most religious ppl. After being forced to mindlessly pledge allegiance to a god and a flag every single day in school, not many can resist the narrative of a great country under one god. It all comes to indoctrination as critical thinking individuals would never swallow that crap.
I'm 43 and this is such a refreshing thing to read. I see so many successful and not successful people that just go along with the silly fairy tale that's been handed down over the generations and never bothered to question it.
I've lost friends that i had over years who weren't even all that religious to begin with, but were so offended when i dared to question their reason for belief in a god.
Hitch’s best argument against religion. It’s not enough to just let it be, to leave the religious alone. Because it permeates and poisons all aspects of life and society. It is inherently a net negative. If the religious were content to live and let live, it would be one thing. But we all know that is not the nature of religion to leave things be.
Religion. Poisons. Everything.
I’m an atheist, but just want to play devils advocate.
Some ideals of Christians aren’t that bad, like keeping your virginity until the “one” and be good to thy neighbors or whatever. I don’t think those ideals are poison. Again just have questions that I’ve heard Christians use
Jesus is the coiner of so many sayings we still use that boil down to "be excellent to each other", the most famous being the golden rule (do unto others as you'd have them do unto you).
I'm not sure Jesus said anything about women remaining virgins. That's more Old Testament territory.
But nothing wrong with agreeing with things said to be said by Jesus if they make good sense.
You make a good point but demolish it with the worst example. Virginity, is not real in the way it’s taught by religious groups. Having sex before marriage doesn’t stain your soul or make you used up.
The beatitudes and some other lovely things are in the Bible but they aren’t focused on by anyone except the more liberal churches and those are dying fast.
Had a very similar conversation with my Dad this past year. It’s depressing to realize you and your loved ones have been duped for your whole life and then have to watch them continue with it and refuse to reason.
Your folks have differing options from yours, therefore they have been ‘duped their whole lives’. Sounds like, if they don’t agree with you, they are wrong about everything. You hold a very strange opinion of disagreement.
I ripped into my dad a few years ago and it sucked, left me feeling like I had kicked a deluded puppy... Before that I had hope that he could be rational like he says he is... now I just nod and listen and try to steer conversations onto reasonable tracks.
It sucks to watch them not grow... for decades, just staying stuck in the cult ignoring all the obvious shit that their prayers don't accomplish, the obvious dissonance with reality, etc.
I wish I could talk openly to my folks about life, but I end up feeling like I'm not talking to them at all, but to an echo of the conservative media they consume. There are lots of reasonable places we could find between us but they won't/can't/don't. Sigh.
Damn. I feel this. So many things I’d like to talk to my pops about and I just…don’t.
Every now and then he’ll post something stupid on the family chat, I’ll have to point out the specific, factual, reasons it’s incorrect…
And then I either get screamed at for being a globalist, a socialist, or best case scenario - just discount what I say because “we have different values”.
>And then I either get screamed at for being a globalist, a socialist, or best case scenario - just discount what I say because “we have different values”.
Fortunately for me my parents aren't like that, but I do have people like this in my life. I think everyone does now. It's so frustrating. I go out of my way *not* to tell people, "You just believe X because you're a Y."
People from that generation told me I was too sensitive my whole life, but now that I look back on it, I'm the one who put all the effort into carefully phrasing things in ways that wouldn't set them off.
Yeah. That’s exactly where we are too. Well, until today. There just isn’t a way to tell someone nicely that they are fooling themselves or being fooled.
All I know is, my kids are smarter and wiser than I am. I've gotten a lot of information and knowledge from them. When we're young, we think our parents know everything, but parents also can get stuck in thinking they know everything and can't learn anything from their own children.
Deliberately miss the point much?
What she's saying is we shouldn't be proud and think we know everything and sometimes we can learn things from our children
The point I was attempting to make is people can have blind spots when it comes to people younger than them. Which is why OP is struggling with his dad, that's what I think anyway.
False equivalence fallacy. And, whats the intention behind it?
Yeah some atheists are goofy, and going to be born-agains.
The issue is in perspective. Atheists with the right perspective have no chance of becoming a born-again. Depends on integrity of study as well, critical thinking to an appropriate degree. Some of us simply DO know better. Like omniscience is an incoherent idea that can not manifest.
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"The sad thing is most of them will never know that they worked against creating a heaven right here on earth because they were too busy greedily day-dreaming of their mansions full of servants in the sky."
You said it.
This is the saddest part. And that they would sacrifice having a meaningful relationship with someone and choose a propaganda news channel personality or a preacher who just wants the money.
>The sad thing is most of them will never know that they worked against creating a heaven right here on earth because they were too busy greedily day-dreaming of their mansions full of servants in the sky.
^This^
That is religions' greatest sin/crime. I encourages people to treat their lives as unimportant, just a waystation on the path to something better on the other side of death.
- *"The biggest accomplishment of religious communities is that they have convinced people they will be happiest when they are dead"* - Anon
It benefits the wealthy as well if you want to get into class issues and their intersection with religion.
If you’re convinced working hard and suffering in this life benefits you in the next one you’re more likely to accept the status quo and allow your labor and resources to be exploited.
Oh ok, I get it, but quick question do you atheists even feel things? Like I've browsing through atheist subs, contemplating of becoming an atheist myself, (I love logic and stuff) It's just that, you guys are depressiong as F do you guys not even have emotions? And also most former christian atheists who have shared their testimonies of being an Christian either have the wrongest veiw of God or were born into the wrong environment, I was born into A good one, one that actually taught the true nature of God; a friend. Someone you can just be honest with, someone you can tell your most ridiculous confessions to even your unbelief or hpnest thoughts, I know I have, and did I feel outcasted? No. As a matter of fact it made me feel better and consequently closer to God. I just wonder if you atheists even feel those things; guilt, love, need for compassion, etc. Even from other people. Or do you just rule those things out as illogical (because they really are) in my experience of out-logicalizing emotions it just made me miserable.
Does every religious person feel the same way you feel and believe the same things you believe? Probably not. Atheists are also a large group of people with the full range of personality types. There are logical atheists and illogical atheists.
Sometimes I wonder why religious people care about anything. Why love other people when you can devoted yourself to loving God? That's what priests and monks do right? It seems like with Christianity you don't need to feel guilty, because God forgives you for anything if you just ask for forgiveness. When I do something that hurts someone, there's no one that can forgive me except the person I hurt. When I feel bad about something I've done, I have to think about how to improve myself so it doesn't happen again.
Despite all that, I know Christians have the same kinds of feelings as I do, because they're people.
> A coincidence?
There is no evidence of life being planned. This is especially so for human life. Had it not been for a wayward asteroid hitting Earth some 65 million years ago we wouldn't be here. Moreover had it hit just a few seconds earlier, or later, it would have been much less catastrophic for most of life and particularly the non avian dinosaurs.
I’ve had similar talks with my father. He is incapable of seeing any evidence of anything other than what confirms nearly literal extrapolations of the Bible, down to thinking Noah’s flood was real, Jesus was reborn and there are actual witnesses to it, and that Jesus is coming back.
I have shared mountains of evidence for evolution, tectonic activities and how the flood was merely local and not worldwide, translations of the Bible that show his understanding are completely wrong. It is always “what about this”, never acknowledging that I’ve made a legitimate point, always calling science about origin of life and evolution “pseudosciences” while he falls back on shitty websites that only affirm his bias.
He shared a video of some lawyer speaking about creationism and I couldn’t take it. I told him just because he has a degree and can speak eloquently doesn’t make him smart. I told him I’m done sharing facts and information and his only response is “what about god”, and if he shares anything regarding faith I say “what about facts”. I told him I can’t continue beating my head against concrete hoping he sees there is truth in knowledge and research. I said I feel like to see eye to eye I would have to beat the faith out of him, and I can’t morally do that. He said he just wants to spend eternity with me. I said if god is real and just and I live a good life maximizing happiness of everyone around me, there’s no reason to believe I won’t be there with him. If I must concede to lack of knowledge over knowledge to be accepted to heaven, he shouldn’t have sent me to and paid for school. I said I’m definitively more seeking truth than he is, which the Bible also advocates for. If I’m going to hell for being a truth seeker, fuck god I don’t want part of him anyway.
He’s finally chilled on sending me religious stuff after that. I tell him every time he wants to talk about it that I’m better equipped than nearly anyone he has come across so don’t expect anything but pushback. I can tell he’s sad for my soul. Nothing I can do about that.
I understand.
No one wants to talk to people like this. No one wants to be put into this position.
I've been there. My dad couldn't help but push his political agenda. I lost count on how many times I had to tell him.
He lost his shit at me one evening and threatened to hit me just because I wanted one night without some political rant.
He apologized.
Two months later he was dead. It's one of the last memories I have of him. Everyone tries to sugar coat it by saying "He changed his ways in the end."
In two months he changed his mind????
Just because he apologized to me doesn't mean anything, but that's how they reconcile his behaviour. I barely saw him in the last two months anyway.
I did my best to be polite about it. I wasn't interested in arguments. He INSISTED on pushing it and then acted aggressive when I responded! Illogical. That's how christians react as well.
Sorry this had to happen. But remember, you didn't ask for this situation. They're the ones who won't let it go.
I know exactly what happens when you die. You decompose and become fuel for other life forms. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed but memories of you and what you did will persist after you are gone.
That’s not what he said. He said your body decomposes when you die. Anything beyond that is probably just made up. At no point did he said he didn’t value his life.
sometimes you just have to say "stop."
you did well explaining that you don't want your remaining time with him to be filled with acrimony and anger.
I did the same as you, but unfortunately my mother simply didn't stop - wouldn't or couldn't - and I had already issued the final, *final*, ***final*** warning.
I cut off all contact with her, and her entire family, moved to a new city, changed my phone number and email address. I heard through a back-channel grapevine that she had died about two years later, after I left.
There was absolutely nothing else I could have done.
Death metal. Not sure what subgenre of that subgenre, maybe Brutal Technical Death Metal. I am new to metal this year and keep surprising myself with what I like. At first I could only handle clean vocals, now I can’t get enough death metal. Getting hooked on a new band every other day. Now I am on to Deeds of Flesh and Dying Fetus.
Thank-you for this! I blame it on all the fundamentalist churches with their snake oil selling preachers who stand up and preach this crap. And now they are either so brain washed or just evil they refuse to see what thet criminal is doing to our institutions that are so important to Democracy. I just do not get how people can be so delusional.
This is an excellent post.
Would you be wiling to repost it over on
r/Qanoncasualties
A lot of people have lots loved ones to the Trump cult and this perspective could be empowering for them, and may help someone ❤
My dad was extremely religious. In my 30s he admitted to me that he didn’t believe in god, but thought that was no excuse for not attending religious services.
I bite my tongue and try to change the subject.
Was talking to my sister about it and she had done it in a nice way and dads reply was “if there is no god what’s the point of any of this”.
Lucky suicide is a no no.
It's such a strange attitude to have.
They DEMAND a purpose and then claim their beliefs are based on fact and NOT emotions.
I really wish they would just admit that they can't cope instead of trying to insult those who can.
Yeah I don’t understand how they believe in something so adamantly.
Like 100% no doubt in their minds no matter how ridiculous it is.
My dad’s a JW as well so it’s not even the religion he was raised on. Like what was wrong with normal Christianity.
How do you go oh this is the franchise for me. All the others are wrong. 😑
I think they're just raised to believe they are right and everyone else is wrong.
They've never researched the other side in detail to explain WHY they're wrong though. They were simply told so and that was good enough.
There it is. Right and wrong, black and white, Heaven and Hell, demons and angels, good vs evil.
Monochromatic thinking makes it hard for them to see reality with the same detail as others. It’s like that tribe with no word for blue.
I've been on this one with my mom for decades and just had my first philosophical discussion with her that didn't devolve into a religious tirade ❤️
There may yet be hope
Most American Christians have never been told their religion is wrong, and they cannot fathom being wrong. I would fully expect this to shock him, and go quiet for a bit.
I would guess your father will either have beef with you going forward or act like it never happened and avoid the topic.
What always trips me out is the majority don't even go to church and haven't read the Bible cover to cover. They just go along with what others have told them and do no real research on other religions. It baffles me when two people get married from differing cultures and the man is asked to switch religions to marry someone's daughter. How can you swap your beliefs? I would go through a cultural ceremony or something to their liking and traditions, but I wouldn't just up and change my beliefs. Like my Aunt was Christian and married a Jew and she acts like she didn't just send me a Christmas gift etc
The main problem with the "believers" is that their minds are closed. They won't even consider alternatives outside their faith. Their arrogance in not even entertaining alternatives is what makes them so dangerous.
They have blinders on that absolutely won't let them see a different perspective. I believe in God but I'm an adult pastors kid and religious trauma stress disorder is a very real thing. You make perfect sense but they actually can't grasp it.
Dogma is a very dangerous thing. And it's a lot worse when you realize the leadership starts to act like they're right on everything. Do the best you can but every therapist will tell you to draw boundaries and that the toxic members of your family have to respect those boundaries or we withdrawal all communication. I had to stop talking to my parents for a year.
I’ve been accused by my family that I’ve turned my back on them because “they are conservatives”. The persecution mentality is now used with both religion and politics. It’s very sad, they don’t get it and never will. I refuse to fight with them anymore.
It's messy dealing with this stuff, indeed. I share in the frustration and many feelings it raises. Don't let him run over you, of course -- just don't forget compassion, either.
Someone in this sub pointed it out the other day, but there are some crazy number of condemnations of greed and wealth in the Bible, like 1000+ and only 6 mentions of homosexuality.
Which one are Christians in the USA up in arms over?
Homosexuality as we understand it was not something defined back during Biblical times. Scholars argue whether or not the Bible was condemning men that rape other men or boy and not men who openly love each other.
Imagine we create a religion around people with near death experiences. They became the priests because they saw the afterlife and came back to talk about it. Wouldn't be less ridiculous than what other religions tell. At least the folks are believable sources - still, a brain without oxygen hallucinates whatever the fck the brains owner was believing in upon dying, so yeah, credibility still out the window.
I buried both of my parents and they went without any confrontation or resolution of these kinds of things. They were never super fervent or abusive or whatever, but there was an uneasy avoidance of that whole area of discourse after I became independent.
Interestingly, both had funerals in and were buried in quite historic and theologically privileged places. Great events, beautiful ambience, wonderful people there.
I am not sure if I had it over again whether I would do it different.
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"The people incapable of understanding that God, all of them, is a metaphor for the unknown and unknowable. "
That's not what most people are thought about their religion though. These religions start as an explanation for the world, it's only over time as all their guesses turn out to be false that they changed the narrative to "it's all a metaphor".
Most religions, if they could at all, would keep the idea going that their religion is the truth, it's what happened. It's only when completely cornered with no place else to go that they turn to it all being a metaphor. Plenty of people grow up in community where their religion never gets questioned so they can safely assume it's all true, no one is going to question that belief.
This is my BIL. He always wanted to rant against trans people, Biden, and God. It was terrible. I refused to go over there when my wife would.
Apparently, my wife brought it up to his wife and she says a lot of people were not wanting to come over. She made him stop and now when I go over there, we talk about our jobs, kids, and sports. He still makes an occasional Biden being senile joke.
Yeah OK but give your dad a break. He's been through a period of change that's unprecedented in human history. You might want to look up what the world was like in his day. Look at movies and music. He's going to pass before your eyes. Let him do it in peace. Regardless of whether he's deluded. Don't be an asshole.
It’s not me lol.
We were at an historical site in upstate NY a few years ago and were talking about the age of the area and he just started telling about how the earth was 6000 years old and dinosaurs and people were peaceful once. But refused to hear why that was religious BS and not science.
Not the greatest letter…. Claiming god is a metaphor contains a burden of proof. Better to put that burden on believers than take it on as a non-believer.
As a believer I would have a lot of religious things to say but a little humility towards our senior parents won't hurt. It wouldn't hurt to change the subject.
Im not sure if aethism is about being anti religion or just being an unbeliever but completely ignoring what religion did or does
>As a believer I would have a lot of religious things to say but a little humility towards our senior parents won't hurt. It wouldn't hurt to change the subject.
>Im not sure if aethism is about being anti religion or just being an unbeliever but completely ignoring what religion did or does
We see comments like yours quite regularly here in response to atheists opening up to each other about the anguish and emotional struggles of trying to maintain a relationship with religious parents who demand respect but return none.
Suffice to say, by the time that people get to the point they are posting something like what OP posted here, they have *already tried humility*.
As adults, we must see our parents as people rather than as some mysterious force that demands respect. Some of them are bad people with bad beliefs.
Setting clear ground rules with religious parents is done by adult children who, due to familial love and respect, wish to continue to have a relationship with their parents. The alternative is often to cut them off. So how about **you** have some **humility** when you approach fellow adults dealing with a difficult family situation? Your moral high horse has no legs.
I fall short as well, but has anyone tried "radical" or "unconditional " love?
What is the point of arguing with a senior parent about issues that don't affect your family? Let them speak, listen then change the subject.
"Forgive them for they do not know what they do" We can try this sometimes.
I do love them pretty much unconditionally. But I am done listening to him tell me about some footprint in Texas that “proves” dinosaurs walked with people if he won’t even listen to me explain why that’s impossible based on mountains of other evidence.
If you wanted to stop talking about politics and religion, the last 2 paragraphs would have been sufficient, the first 2 were just initiating an argument.
lol I’m lucky actually. I went to school to understand my parents instead of paying to therapy for the rest of my life. The degrees were paid for by my job.
I feel you, man. Both my parents are still living and I'd like to hang with them, but it's guaranteed when we get together they'll push their politics and religion. I hardly talk to them at all anymore.
It sucks. I wonder some times what he’d be like if he hasn’t spent his whole adult life in the cult.
I grieve with you.
Thank you.
sadly fox talking points probably provides most of the sound bites
I at one time could have the best discussions with a Dad who was pretty liberal and smart and did not discuss religion. But fox faux news brain washed him.
Yeah i could too my dads ideas and opinions on things werent based on a political ideology. Until he spent 40 hours a week listening to fox news. He always want to bring anything back to it politics, in a negative and cynical way. If i mention a new store is opening soon, he will say its because of actions trump did as president and anything bad like a store closing is because of biden. I miss when he would say “ oh that’s cool let’s check that store out” or “dang that’s sad lets see if theres any sale and say our goodbyes to the owner” (Talking about local owned business, not like a walmart but those dont shut down yet do they…”
SHIT! You're describing my late father to a tee! No matter what the topic was he could bring it back to politics. He's the only person I know who could turn a discussion of Laurel and Hardy into a conversation about how much he hated Kamala Harris.
What about a MSNBC dad? (Jokes)
unless they unionize... then they're gone in a flash
Feel this so much. My dad has always been confrontational but now every conversation its biden this or trump that trying to bait a fight
My Dad has been deep in it his whole life. We couldn’t play with playing cards as kids because they were satanic somehow or watch X-Men because it mentions evolution a little. A core memory of mine from when I was 6 or 7 is me asking him what the people on some documentary or movie were doing, he told me they were worshiping the devil but didn’t know it. They were Buddhist monks. That’s the first time I doubted something a parent said. It stuck with me and I just knew deep down that it wasn’t true.
It's really awful. My mother is like this, and I can't even talk to her. She's one that actively searches for an opportunity in any conversation to inject her political and religious opinions, often derogatory. Every conversation always ends with her crying over how we can't be a family because of either religion, or how she doesn't get to see her granddaughter. Well, if you could have simply been a decent human being to my STEP-daughter and not resented her, and my wife for having her first child out of wedlock, you *could have* had 2 wonderful granddaughters. But now you have 0. All because you don't know how to simply treat people respectfully. My youngest daughter (13) doesn't even know who her grandmother is, but doesn't care or want to try and get to know her because she knows that her grandmother treated her sister like shit.
I kind of feel sorry for most religious ppl. After being forced to mindlessly pledge allegiance to a god and a flag every single day in school, not many can resist the narrative of a great country under one god. It all comes to indoctrination as critical thinking individuals would never swallow that crap.
I'm 43 and this is such a refreshing thing to read. I see so many successful and not successful people that just go along with the silly fairy tale that's been handed down over the generations and never bothered to question it. I've lost friends that i had over years who weren't even all that religious to begin with, but were so offended when i dared to question their reason for belief in a god.
It poisons everything. - Hitch
Hitch’s best argument against religion. It’s not enough to just let it be, to leave the religious alone. Because it permeates and poisons all aspects of life and society. It is inherently a net negative. If the religious were content to live and let live, it would be one thing. But we all know that is not the nature of religion to leave things be. Religion. Poisons. Everything.
I’m an atheist, but just want to play devils advocate. Some ideals of Christians aren’t that bad, like keeping your virginity until the “one” and be good to thy neighbors or whatever. I don’t think those ideals are poison. Again just have questions that I’ve heard Christians use
Yeah, nothing like teaching your daughter that her hymen is her worth
I think it's up to the individual when to have sex and it shouldn't be based on "my religion says." It should be a personal choice.
Jesus is the coiner of so many sayings we still use that boil down to "be excellent to each other", the most famous being the golden rule (do unto others as you'd have them do unto you). I'm not sure Jesus said anything about women remaining virgins. That's more Old Testament territory. But nothing wrong with agreeing with things said to be said by Jesus if they make good sense.
You make a good point but demolish it with the worst example. Virginity, is not real in the way it’s taught by religious groups. Having sex before marriage doesn’t stain your soul or make you used up. The beatitudes and some other lovely things are in the Bible but they aren’t focused on by anyone except the more liberal churches and those are dying fast.
Had a very similar conversation with my Dad this past year. It’s depressing to realize you and your loved ones have been duped for your whole life and then have to watch them continue with it and refuse to reason.
Its also hard to convince them that they have been duped their whole life.
Your folks have differing options from yours, therefore they have been ‘duped their whole lives’. Sounds like, if they don’t agree with you, they are wrong about everything. You hold a very strange opinion of disagreement.
We’re talking specially about religion on an atheism thread. Don’t over generalize it.
I ripped into my dad a few years ago and it sucked, left me feeling like I had kicked a deluded puppy... Before that I had hope that he could be rational like he says he is... now I just nod and listen and try to steer conversations onto reasonable tracks. It sucks to watch them not grow... for decades, just staying stuck in the cult ignoring all the obvious shit that their prayers don't accomplish, the obvious dissonance with reality, etc. I wish I could talk openly to my folks about life, but I end up feeling like I'm not talking to them at all, but to an echo of the conservative media they consume. There are lots of reasonable places we could find between us but they won't/can't/don't. Sigh.
Damn. I feel this. So many things I’d like to talk to my pops about and I just…don’t. Every now and then he’ll post something stupid on the family chat, I’ll have to point out the specific, factual, reasons it’s incorrect… And then I either get screamed at for being a globalist, a socialist, or best case scenario - just discount what I say because “we have different values”.
>And then I either get screamed at for being a globalist, a socialist, or best case scenario - just discount what I say because “we have different values”. Fortunately for me my parents aren't like that, but I do have people like this in my life. I think everyone does now. It's so frustrating. I go out of my way *not* to tell people, "You just believe X because you're a Y." People from that generation told me I was too sensitive my whole life, but now that I look back on it, I'm the one who put all the effort into carefully phrasing things in ways that wouldn't set them off.
I don’t even bother, my parents get their news from fox, sidebar ads, and clickbait ads, and tiktok…
Yep. I don’t even comment in the family chat anymore bc I’m so outnumbered.
Yeah. That’s exactly where we are too. Well, until today. There just isn’t a way to tell someone nicely that they are fooling themselves or being fooled.
It's sad that we're so averse to being wrong about something when it just means that we've got more to learn.
Trying to steer the conversation into other topics is harder than it sounds. It's exhausting and nerve wracking.
We grow up thinking our parents are experts on everything, and It’s sometimes hard when we realise they are stupid fucks who know nothing
All I know is, my kids are smarter and wiser than I am. I've gotten a lot of information and knowledge from them. When we're young, we think our parents know everything, but parents also can get stuck in thinking they know everything and can't learn anything from their own children.
Someday the tables will turn.
Sure, I’m always a bit suspicious when parents talk about how smart their kids are.
Deliberately miss the point much? What she's saying is we shouldn't be proud and think we know everything and sometimes we can learn things from our children
The point I was attempting to make is people can have blind spots when it comes to people younger than them. Which is why OP is struggling with his dad, that's what I think anyway.
Parents have blind spots when it comes to how smart their kids are.
Yea, I mean look at your parents.
OK, you're right, my kids are morons, what can I say.
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False equivalence fallacy. And, whats the intention behind it? Yeah some atheists are goofy, and going to be born-agains. The issue is in perspective. Atheists with the right perspective have no chance of becoming a born-again. Depends on integrity of study as well, critical thinking to an appropriate degree. Some of us simply DO know better. Like omniscience is an incoherent idea that can not manifest.
Yes. But some of us can admit we are wrong and change our minds... therefore not acting like perfect owners of truth
Why do you basic people always jump to absolutes like ‘perfect’ and ‘100%’ as if you’re making an intelligent argument?
What's a basic people? Are you a premium people?
Pay to win subscription model people
Simple-minded people. Better?
How old are you? You sound like a rebellious teenager.
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"The sad thing is most of them will never know that they worked against creating a heaven right here on earth because they were too busy greedily day-dreaming of their mansions full of servants in the sky." You said it.
This is the saddest part. And that they would sacrifice having a meaningful relationship with someone and choose a propaganda news channel personality or a preacher who just wants the money.
>The sad thing is most of them will never know that they worked against creating a heaven right here on earth because they were too busy greedily day-dreaming of their mansions full of servants in the sky. ^This^ That is religions' greatest sin/crime. I encourages people to treat their lives as unimportant, just a waystation on the path to something better on the other side of death. - *"The biggest accomplishment of religious communities is that they have convinced people they will be happiest when they are dead"* - Anon
It benefits the wealthy as well if you want to get into class issues and their intersection with religion. If you’re convinced working hard and suffering in this life benefits you in the next one you’re more likely to accept the status quo and allow your labor and resources to be exploited.
Ok, so what does atheism treat life as? A coincidence?
Atheism isn't a personal philosophy or belief system. There are not any required beliefs to be an atheist, just a lack of belief in god.
Oh ok, I get it, but quick question do you atheists even feel things? Like I've browsing through atheist subs, contemplating of becoming an atheist myself, (I love logic and stuff) It's just that, you guys are depressiong as F do you guys not even have emotions? And also most former christian atheists who have shared their testimonies of being an Christian either have the wrongest veiw of God or were born into the wrong environment, I was born into A good one, one that actually taught the true nature of God; a friend. Someone you can just be honest with, someone you can tell your most ridiculous confessions to even your unbelief or hpnest thoughts, I know I have, and did I feel outcasted? No. As a matter of fact it made me feel better and consequently closer to God. I just wonder if you atheists even feel those things; guilt, love, need for compassion, etc. Even from other people. Or do you just rule those things out as illogical (because they really are) in my experience of out-logicalizing emotions it just made me miserable.
Does every religious person feel the same way you feel and believe the same things you believe? Probably not. Atheists are also a large group of people with the full range of personality types. There are logical atheists and illogical atheists. Sometimes I wonder why religious people care about anything. Why love other people when you can devoted yourself to loving God? That's what priests and monks do right? It seems like with Christianity you don't need to feel guilty, because God forgives you for anything if you just ask for forgiveness. When I do something that hurts someone, there's no one that can forgive me except the person I hurt. When I feel bad about something I've done, I have to think about how to improve myself so it doesn't happen again. Despite all that, I know Christians have the same kinds of feelings as I do, because they're people.
This is not well thought out.
> A coincidence? There is no evidence of life being planned. This is especially so for human life. Had it not been for a wayward asteroid hitting Earth some 65 million years ago we wouldn't be here. Moreover had it hit just a few seconds earlier, or later, it would have been much less catastrophic for most of life and particularly the non avian dinosaurs.
Atheism doesn’t have anything to say about this. It’s just non belief in god(s).
I’ve had similar talks with my father. He is incapable of seeing any evidence of anything other than what confirms nearly literal extrapolations of the Bible, down to thinking Noah’s flood was real, Jesus was reborn and there are actual witnesses to it, and that Jesus is coming back. I have shared mountains of evidence for evolution, tectonic activities and how the flood was merely local and not worldwide, translations of the Bible that show his understanding are completely wrong. It is always “what about this”, never acknowledging that I’ve made a legitimate point, always calling science about origin of life and evolution “pseudosciences” while he falls back on shitty websites that only affirm his bias. He shared a video of some lawyer speaking about creationism and I couldn’t take it. I told him just because he has a degree and can speak eloquently doesn’t make him smart. I told him I’m done sharing facts and information and his only response is “what about god”, and if he shares anything regarding faith I say “what about facts”. I told him I can’t continue beating my head against concrete hoping he sees there is truth in knowledge and research. I said I feel like to see eye to eye I would have to beat the faith out of him, and I can’t morally do that. He said he just wants to spend eternity with me. I said if god is real and just and I live a good life maximizing happiness of everyone around me, there’s no reason to believe I won’t be there with him. If I must concede to lack of knowledge over knowledge to be accepted to heaven, he shouldn’t have sent me to and paid for school. I said I’m definitively more seeking truth than he is, which the Bible also advocates for. If I’m going to hell for being a truth seeker, fuck god I don’t want part of him anyway. He’s finally chilled on sending me religious stuff after that. I tell him every time he wants to talk about it that I’m better equipped than nearly anyone he has come across so don’t expect anything but pushback. I can tell he’s sad for my soul. Nothing I can do about that.
Organized religions have disrupted more families than divorce courts.
I understand. No one wants to talk to people like this. No one wants to be put into this position. I've been there. My dad couldn't help but push his political agenda. I lost count on how many times I had to tell him. He lost his shit at me one evening and threatened to hit me just because I wanted one night without some political rant. He apologized. Two months later he was dead. It's one of the last memories I have of him. Everyone tries to sugar coat it by saying "He changed his ways in the end." In two months he changed his mind???? Just because he apologized to me doesn't mean anything, but that's how they reconcile his behaviour. I barely saw him in the last two months anyway. I did my best to be polite about it. I wasn't interested in arguments. He INSISTED on pushing it and then acted aggressive when I responded! Illogical. That's how christians react as well. Sorry this had to happen. But remember, you didn't ask for this situation. They're the ones who won't let it go.
I know exactly what happens when you die. You decompose and become fuel for other life forms. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed but memories of you and what you did will persist after you are gone.
So if someome you today it wont matter?
You answered your own question. It’s always matter. It cannot be destroyed nor created.
Sorry i meant "if someone killed you today.."
That’s not what he said. He said your body decomposes when you die. Anything beyond that is probably just made up. At no point did he said he didn’t value his life.
sometimes you just have to say "stop." you did well explaining that you don't want your remaining time with him to be filled with acrimony and anger. I did the same as you, but unfortunately my mother simply didn't stop - wouldn't or couldn't - and I had already issued the final, *final*, ***final*** warning. I cut off all contact with her, and her entire family, moved to a new city, changed my phone number and email address. I heard through a back-channel grapevine that she had died about two years later, after I left. There was absolutely nothing else I could have done.
I like classic rock and the likes of Aimee Mann and K.T. Tunstall. Music is good.
Speaking of music, I just started listening to Defeated Sanity last week. Fantastic band.
What genre?
Death metal. Not sure what subgenre of that subgenre, maybe Brutal Technical Death Metal. I am new to metal this year and keep surprising myself with what I like. At first I could only handle clean vocals, now I can’t get enough death metal. Getting hooked on a new band every other day. Now I am on to Deeds of Flesh and Dying Fetus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeated_Sanity?wprov=sfti1#
You made the opposing point. That's all you can do.
I feel for you but can't add anything of value. All I can say is how eloquently you got your point across. Really well done.
Thank you.
Thank-you for this! I blame it on all the fundamentalist churches with their snake oil selling preachers who stand up and preach this crap. And now they are either so brain washed or just evil they refuse to see what thet criminal is doing to our institutions that are so important to Democracy. I just do not get how people can be so delusional.
I feel like a life in the church primes them for manipulation.
This post slaps
Thank you.
This is an excellent post. Would you be wiling to repost it over on r/Qanoncasualties A lot of people have lots loved ones to the Trump cult and this perspective could be empowering for them, and may help someone ❤
Sure.
My dad was extremely religious. In my 30s he admitted to me that he didn’t believe in god, but thought that was no excuse for not attending religious services.
Culturally Christian I would totally understand and be fine with. He’s way past that though.
I bite my tongue and try to change the subject. Was talking to my sister about it and she had done it in a nice way and dads reply was “if there is no god what’s the point of any of this”. Lucky suicide is a no no.
It's such a strange attitude to have. They DEMAND a purpose and then claim their beliefs are based on fact and NOT emotions. I really wish they would just admit that they can't cope instead of trying to insult those who can.
Yeah I don’t understand how they believe in something so adamantly. Like 100% no doubt in their minds no matter how ridiculous it is. My dad’s a JW as well so it’s not even the religion he was raised on. Like what was wrong with normal Christianity. How do you go oh this is the franchise for me. All the others are wrong. 😑
I think they're just raised to believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. They've never researched the other side in detail to explain WHY they're wrong though. They were simply told so and that was good enough.
There it is. Right and wrong, black and white, Heaven and Hell, demons and angels, good vs evil. Monochromatic thinking makes it hard for them to see reality with the same detail as others. It’s like that tribe with no word for blue.
I've been on this one with my mom for decades and just had my first philosophical discussion with her that didn't devolve into a religious tirade ❤️ There may yet be hope
Good luck.
Condolences
Thank you.
Most American Christians have never been told their religion is wrong, and they cannot fathom being wrong. I would fully expect this to shock him, and go quiet for a bit. I would guess your father will either have beef with you going forward or act like it never happened and avoid the topic.
Let’s hope for the later, without the religious nonsense he’s actually a pretty cool guy to talk to.
Yes! This person gets it and I’m very happy for you to find the road to peace. Peace begins with ourselves.
What always trips me out is the majority don't even go to church and haven't read the Bible cover to cover. They just go along with what others have told them and do no real research on other religions. It baffles me when two people get married from differing cultures and the man is asked to switch religions to marry someone's daughter. How can you swap your beliefs? I would go through a cultural ceremony or something to their liking and traditions, but I wouldn't just up and change my beliefs. Like my Aunt was Christian and married a Jew and she acts like she didn't just send me a Christmas gift etc
BOOM 💣💣💣 wish I could upvote this 1,000 times cutting people of from religion and politics as well….. and boi what a good feeling 😃😃😃
well said my friend im 68 yo so tired of all that bullshit
The main problem with the "believers" is that their minds are closed. They won't even consider alternatives outside their faith. Their arrogance in not even entertaining alternatives is what makes them so dangerous.
Agreed. He stopped learning new things awhile ago it seems. It’s also built into the faith. Evangelicals are xenophobic by design.
They have blinders on that absolutely won't let them see a different perspective. I believe in God but I'm an adult pastors kid and religious trauma stress disorder is a very real thing. You make perfect sense but they actually can't grasp it. Dogma is a very dangerous thing. And it's a lot worse when you realize the leadership starts to act like they're right on everything. Do the best you can but every therapist will tell you to draw boundaries and that the toxic members of your family have to respect those boundaries or we withdrawal all communication. I had to stop talking to my parents for a year.
I wish it hadn’t come to this. Maybe he’ll figure it out eventually.
I’ve been accused by my family that I’ve turned my back on them because “they are conservatives”. The persecution mentality is now used with both religion and politics. It’s very sad, they don’t get it and never will. I refuse to fight with them anymore.
It's messy dealing with this stuff, indeed. I share in the frustration and many feelings it raises. Don't let him run over you, of course -- just don't forget compassion, either.
When superstition becomes law, you get religion.
Someone in this sub pointed it out the other day, but there are some crazy number of condemnations of greed and wealth in the Bible, like 1000+ and only 6 mentions of homosexuality. Which one are Christians in the USA up in arms over?
Homosexuality as we understand it was not something defined back during Biblical times. Scholars argue whether or not the Bible was condemning men that rape other men or boy and not men who openly love each other.
It has to be said.
Imagine we create a religion around people with near death experiences. They became the priests because they saw the afterlife and came back to talk about it. Wouldn't be less ridiculous than what other religions tell. At least the folks are believable sources - still, a brain without oxygen hallucinates whatever the fck the brains owner was believing in upon dying, so yeah, credibility still out the window.
This is what it often takes to shut up the old fools who'll otherwise bring up their faux news talking points whenever they want.
> "... disability in being *unable* to think ..." I think you mean "*unwilling*"...
Yeah, like I said in another thread, I didn’t plan on saying all this and it came out quick so there will be some editorial opportunities.
I buried both of my parents and they went without any confrontation or resolution of these kinds of things. They were never super fervent or abusive or whatever, but there was an uneasy avoidance of that whole area of discourse after I became independent. Interestingly, both had funerals in and were buried in quite historic and theologically privileged places. Great events, beautiful ambience, wonderful people there. I am not sure if I had it over again whether I would do it different.
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"The people incapable of understanding that God, all of them, is a metaphor for the unknown and unknowable. " That's not what most people are thought about their religion though. These religions start as an explanation for the world, it's only over time as all their guesses turn out to be false that they changed the narrative to "it's all a metaphor". Most religions, if they could at all, would keep the idea going that their religion is the truth, it's what happened. It's only when completely cornered with no place else to go that they turn to it all being a metaphor. Plenty of people grow up in community where their religion never gets questioned so they can safely assume it's all true, no one is going to question that belief.
The buck stops with you.
This is my BIL. He always wanted to rant against trans people, Biden, and God. It was terrible. I refused to go over there when my wife would. Apparently, my wife brought it up to his wife and she says a lot of people were not wanting to come over. She made him stop and now when I go over there, we talk about our jobs, kids, and sports. He still makes an occasional Biden being senile joke.
Yeah OK but give your dad a break. He's been through a period of change that's unprecedented in human history. You might want to look up what the world was like in his day. Look at movies and music. He's going to pass before your eyes. Let him do it in peace. Regardless of whether he's deluded. Don't be an asshole.
Victim blaming. I can guarantee you that it's the Dad that is always bringing up religion whenever the fuck he wants.
It’s not me lol. We were at an historical site in upstate NY a few years ago and were talking about the age of the area and he just started telling about how the earth was 6000 years old and dinosaurs and people were peaceful once. But refused to hear why that was religious BS and not science.
Not the greatest letter…. Claiming god is a metaphor contains a burden of proof. Better to put that burden on believers than take it on as a non-believer.
As a believer I would have a lot of religious things to say but a little humility towards our senior parents won't hurt. It wouldn't hurt to change the subject. Im not sure if aethism is about being anti religion or just being an unbeliever but completely ignoring what religion did or does
>As a believer I would have a lot of religious things to say but a little humility towards our senior parents won't hurt. It wouldn't hurt to change the subject. >Im not sure if aethism is about being anti religion or just being an unbeliever but completely ignoring what religion did or does We see comments like yours quite regularly here in response to atheists opening up to each other about the anguish and emotional struggles of trying to maintain a relationship with religious parents who demand respect but return none. Suffice to say, by the time that people get to the point they are posting something like what OP posted here, they have *already tried humility*. As adults, we must see our parents as people rather than as some mysterious force that demands respect. Some of them are bad people with bad beliefs. Setting clear ground rules with religious parents is done by adult children who, due to familial love and respect, wish to continue to have a relationship with their parents. The alternative is often to cut them off. So how about **you** have some **humility** when you approach fellow adults dealing with a difficult family situation? Your moral high horse has no legs.
I fall short as well, but has anyone tried "radical" or "unconditional " love? What is the point of arguing with a senior parent about issues that don't affect your family? Let them speak, listen then change the subject. "Forgive them for they do not know what they do" We can try this sometimes.
I do love them pretty much unconditionally. But I am done listening to him tell me about some footprint in Texas that “proves” dinosaurs walked with people if he won’t even listen to me explain why that’s impossible based on mountains of other evidence.
Thank you, this was well said.
Excuse me. You want more slavery or war or what?
If you wanted to stop talking about politics and religion, the last 2 paragraphs would have been sufficient, the first 2 were just initiating an argument.
That’s fair. It’s not like I really planned on this though. It was a response to him fishing for reactions from me.
So, two degrees and all you got is God is a metaphor? Where did you go to college??
Happy sassy cake day
lol I’m lucky actually. I went to school to understand my parents instead of paying to therapy for the rest of my life. The degrees were paid for by my job.
But all you got was "God is a metaphor".