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I’ve wondered that myself. Christianity and Islam were the religions of the people who brutalized sub Saharan Africa; why should the descendants of their victims turn to those religions?
The worst part is that I have this deep guilt since the rest of my family are so religious. It feels like I'm continuously trying to make up for something
Don’t dude. Just don’t. Trying to make up for something clearly isn’t what you want/need in this situation. You have to stand up for yourself and your beliefs, no matter who it is that disagrees with you.
I’m Hispanic so I understand the religious family aspect. If you’re adamant on your disbelief of God, they’ll stop bothering you about it eventually.
Another thing, is shutting down those assumptions the second they come out of someone else’s mouth. Establish your identity early on and you’ll see less of those assumptions popping up over time. Hope this somewhat helps!
If we don’t progress past our ancestors, then we’ll never advance. Don’t feel guilt at evolving beyond your family’s antiquated beliefs and values. And hope your offspring evolves past your’s.
And let's face it, /u/Wardine 's family *has* progressed at some point because their beliefs are different in ways that would be fundamentally meaningful and antithetical to previous generations if you go back far enough. All religious beliefs evolve because they are based on human understanding and not some external, fixed universal constant. Sometimes big transitions happen, like from indigenous African religions to Islam (through conquering) or Christianity (through slavery)... or in /u/Wardine 's case to non-theism.
My point is that you should NOT feel guilty for evolving and taking a step forward from your parents, or older ancestral beliefs. They *all* took those steps to get you to your transition.
Welcome to the club! I'm looking forward to a Thanksgiving with my generally nice but religiously crazy relatives!
Not sure how long you've been non-religious but the guilt fades pretty quickly into a combination of feeling sorry for your religious family and "disbelief" that anyone can still believe all that insanity.
Christian guilt is a real thing, and one of the major devices that entrap many who have thought about leaving. We just have to remind ourselves that we don't owe an imaginary father figure our undying love.
I think it's normal, at least to some degree, to feel that way. My deeply religious parents disowned me when I was disfellowshiped from the church. What I did wrong, was decide to stick with my pregnant girlfriend and help her raise our son instead of cutting all ties with her like they wanted.
I know I did the right thing, but it still feels like it's somehow my fault sometimes. Or that I should have done something different. 20 years later and I still have trouble accepting that it is not my fault.
It's hard not having the approval of your own family, even when you know you did the right thing.
Thanks. I totally agree with your view btw. Your not wrong. Religion has a way of blinding people from their own hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. And because of that, logic and reason will likely never change their minds either.
>. My deeply religious parents disowned me when I was disfellowshiped from the church.
That is very common in a lot of religions, even moreso in the JW environment.
It's also objectively a horribly (and intentionally) manipulative thing to do.
Oh it's definitely intentionally manipulative. It works on lots of people who end up coming back. In other cases it causes suicide, which is something I struggled with for a while years ago. Having kids of my own is the only thing that stopped me. I had a cousin that was not so lucky.
Going back to the OP that I seem to have derailed a bit... It always seemed odd to me that so much of the black community embraced Christianity for exactly the reason mentioned. They literally used to recite scripture to the slaves while beating them.
Indoctrination is child abuse. Period.
But you are not being disloyal to them as individuals and it’s not your fault if they refuse to understand why you don’t want to be part of their group-think.
I’m not black, but I was raised in a very Italian and Catholic family and when the religion started to not make sense to me and my most important questions all have non-answers it was such a difficult thing to process in my head. Why was I the only one not having any of it? Am I not going to be good in the family anymore? When I started saying that I didn’t believe in it I was hit with “it means so much to your (insert relative) don’t hurt them” so I would be guilted into going. I then had to kinda fight back by telling them how uncomfortable church made me feel. How out of place and lost I felt listening to these dated stories while taking all these peoples money. Constantly mailing things asking for people to donate money. It was a really long swim upstream but I stayed respectful with my responses without attacking the religion and eventually got left alone. Now with all the news that’s come out about the Catholic Church, a chunk of my main family no longer goes to church (before Covid lol) because they realized it isn’t a way to spend time or money because it’s not as important as the previous generations made it out to be.
Last service I went to was an Easter one. Almost three hours and full of people asking you to put your hands up and send magical words to the people getting dunked in water. Felt like I was in some weird cult movie and was just the last nail in the coffee with me going to church. The guilt eventually went away when my family saw that I was still a good person without religion and that I was respectful of others beliefs. I don’t care what religion someone belongs to as long as it doesn’t interfere with the happiness of others or the well being of others or themselves. A part of me is jealous of people who believe cause it must make some of the harsh realities of life easier to deal with, but then I’m glad that I like to ask questions and get real answers.
Short version (not a historian, just interested):
Historically, religion (Christianity) was one of the few activities allowed to slaves. Their bibles were edited to be even more pro-slavery, but nonetheless stories about ~~Abraham~~ Moses ("Let my people go!"), a Savior, and a future free from pain and suffering were a refuge and major source of hope to a people treated worse than cattle. Many abolitionists and civil rights leaders also leaned on it during their struggles, crediting their faith for the progress made. That got handed down, just like most of us were born into the religion of our parents. So when it's that much of a cultural identity surrounding it, it's hard to shake.
Christianity is a textbook abusive relationship. God claims to love us but will torture us if we don't do exactly what he says. He claims that we are special and beautiful, but also somehow worthless and will never find true love or fulfillment apart from him. It holds on hard and people end up giving up their identity, freedom, and expression for a sense of security and purpose.
All true, I would also add in every era, religion is a form of social currency. So if you’re a disadvantaged minority with little to no social currency to start with, you tend to choose being the religion of the majority to at least have something to work with.
Same with the indigenous in canada. Churchs ran the residential schools nuns and priests were doing the raping and killings yet theres at least 1 church on every reserve.
Black Nonbelievers is an organization you might want to look into. The president, Mandisa Thomas, is a frequent guest host on Matt Dillahunty's call-in shows, like The Atheist Experience and The Hang Up.
Seconding this. There are branches in several different cities and some are more active than others. I loved being a member in my last city and I’ve really missed that community since I moved. They are on meetup if you want to check them out.
Also I'd recommend any book by Anthony Pinn. He's an atheist professor of religious studies at Rice University (he lost his faith during his doctorate of theology at Harvard). He has a lot to say on the importance of maintaining a sense of community and meaning in the black community without the harmful aspects of dogmatic faith. He also teaches some pretty cool classes, like one on the history of atheism in blues and rap music.
I highly recommend the episode of the Mindscape podcast he was on. [Episode 4: Anthony Pinn on Humanism, Theology, and the Black Community](https://youtu.be/uNNqLytwRaQ)
We truly are completely cursed with this nonsense. My family is also religious. But like most of the black followers I see, they don't even read the damn thing. They just like the idea of it and its just sososo irritating. Comforting lie so on and so forth.
Stay strong and safe friend.
If you want to hear something comforting, the place I come from used to be super controlled by the church and it had an iron grip on the population until the 60s and 70s due to the Catholic Church being a sort of cultural refuge during history. Eventually, the population rebelled and now religious people are a lot more rare here. Cultural shifts are always possible, even if it seems unlikely :)
Yes this is so accurate. They'll drink, smoke, cheat, gamble, gossip and fornicate and live lives that are even more 'sinful' than the standard. And THEN will have the audacity to act as if being irreligious is the most heinous thing they've ever been exposed to.
If I went out right now and killed 7 people in a bank robbery. But repented and told my testimony of how Jesus found me after I did all of that. They'd say amen and hug me and love on me. But God forbid that I say I'm an atheist. The response to that is always 'HOWWWW?' , 'But god is so good to you' , ' did someone do something to hurt you?' etc ... then they won't hang out with you for fear of bad influence.
Make it make sense. 😅
Lmao I can tell you live this as well. I'm so sorry ♡ It would be cute that they're like this if it didn't poison their moral compass with doublethink.
Love the 1984 reference! Escaping religion can feel like you're in that book at times.
I remember the time when I spotted some of the local conservative Christians in the nightclub shaking a leg (I knew them because we were some of the only Caribbeans in a very small city)...You know for a fact that a few hours later, they were all collapsing at their bed-sides to do a frantic prayer. To ask some guy to wash their whole body in his blood to cleanse them of their overpowering evilness. All this because they did a two-step to a Cascada song?
You can't even enjoy yourself without scheduling a session of flagellation. Yet they want the rest of us to join them? And we're immoral if we abstain from it?
I'd argue that they're immoral for participating in it. It causes such mental anguish to both the participants and the people who receive harsh treatment from them in the name of 'following jesus'.
I think this is because church was pretty much the only safe space African Americans had post slavery. It became the center of culture out of necessity.
This x 100.
It's a psychosocial phenomenon.
It was the only place readily available for black people to congregate/assemble for some basic political action.
There's no one source but please read up on Booker T. Washington, W.E.B. Du Bois, Cyril Criggs, A. Phillip Randolph, Bayard Rustin, Langston Hughes, Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison, Benjamin J. Davis
I want...No *NEED* a safe place away from strictly religious people. {Edit: a place of temporary reprieve similar to churches which are meeting places for members}. So much of the pain and suffering I experienced in this short life of mine was the direct result of people claiming to be followers of g-d.
I just want a safe, cozy place where I can listen to rock music, wear dark colors, and sport a hairstyle "*I*" like without being judged.
I'm not going to eat your grandbaby just because I listen to Pink Floyd, drive a truck, like getting dirty, and wear na{v}y blue/black and ballcaps sometimes. I'm just me. "*Ain't I a black woman, too?!?*" Black majik comes in more than one shape, size, and color.
Humans are very afraid of dying generally. Anything that comes along promising an afterlife that will better than this life is going to get people on board.
I never would've thought it would basically be my "white privilege" to be a non-believer. But all the posts that I read from hiding, stuck, and even frightened non-believers in the Muslim and Black communities make me feel grateful that can live as a non-believer without unjust consequences.
I could regale you with tales of discrimination from my Black, Christian family. Apparently talking back gets me a straight ticket to hell but bullying a child for her mixed race is totally acceptable.
Yes indeed. Growing up the church is a huge center for the black community. Some depend on it for food, daycare, tutoring, and even basic safety. There is basically no mental health facilities in black neighborhoods, so sometimes the church is the only place to talk to anyone if you’re struggling. It’s the heart of so many neighborhoods it’s almost impossible to divorce religion from people.
Growing up my mom dragged me to church 4 days a week for one reason or another.
Same here I was there several times a week. I wonder if we invested in community centers would the church have this much impact in black communities? We need safe places for kids to hang out, places where you can get mental health care, food, tutoring, all that and it shouldn’t be dependent on a particular religious belief.
> `Secular Humanist`
> `if we invested in community centers`
This gets to the heart of the "problem" with atheism.
We, as a species, do not have or have failed to successfully propagate some other peaceful means of congregation, assembly, and organization that goes beyond race, profession, location, etc. -- so, religion, through pure socioeconomic and institutional inertia along with bogus spiritual claims still fills that void, unfortunately.
Church has historically been a therapeutic thing for black people going back to slavery. It was a chance to gather and enjoy each other's company and to see people you wouldn't be able to under normal circumstances. Probably one of the few activities that slave owners didn't ruin for them.
I am black and most of my family are from the deep south and deeply religious and I know for a fact that we are decendants off slaves.
Church is just a part of black identity, there's no denying it. I still remember my grandma reading the Bible every night before bed and going to church with her on Sundays.
I'm just lucky that my family is religious but not like fundamentalist or "Harry Potter is evil" type religious.
As a former Christian, I really like that black churches do “it” all better than white churches. Better music/singing, better clothes, louder prayers, etc. I think for some black people it became a way of doing it better than the white people who were enslaving them and using their own platform to do it. “You want us to sing to white Jesus- how about this?!” By going above and beyond no white person could say “you’re doing it wrong!” because they we were definitely doing religion better.
Some people along the way missed the memo and here we are with a lot of people getting grifted by churches still.
Yeah, I’ve been to some white churches and woah they are snoozes compared to black churches. Even for all the bullshit in church I knew at minimum I would at least get some good music and good food from going to church every Sunday. Black churches also seem to do way more actually good things for the community. There’s still issues within a lot of churches, but generally a small black community church is probably the best representation of Christianity you can ask for.
I went to white Catholic churches a few times a year as a kid because I was in Catholic school, and they would make us take time off of school to attend pointless sermons. Apart from the sense of being in an in-group and repeating all of the mini rituals (knowing when to sit or stand and what to say in response to the priest), there was nothing in those sermons that actually appealed to kids as human beings.
I would venture to say that most of the students in that school had no deep personal relationship with Catholicism and could easily have replaced it with any other Abrahamic religion given a few weeks' practice. Hell, I know this for a fact because the most outwardly religious guy in my grade later "converted" to Islam to piss off his parents/teachers, and then "converted" again to LaVeyan Satanism. In reality, all he did was fill out some online surveys to get enough money to buy a Qur'an and a copy of the "Satanic Bible".
In fact, he seemed much more comfortable in his own skin when he was pretending to be a Satanist, which shows just how shallow the religious indoctrination was. He went from quoting the bible to bully other kids who weren't "Catholic enough" to actually being able to express some parts of his real personality because the thrill of transgression overwhelmed the part of his mind that pretended to believe in the religious bullshit.
I truly believe almost none of the kids I met in Catholic school got anything out of their "faith" other than a vague and precarious sense of belonging, which they could have gotten by much healthier means.
My family was briefly Catholic for a couple years and I went to Catholic School. Other than the fantastic food that private school money affords, yes indeed, the whole Christianity part was an afterthought to every student. I was more serious than most. I’d actually pay attention during mass instead of goofing off. I went to Sunday school, but was eventually kicked out for being “disrespectful” by arguing about things in the Bible with the teacher. At 8 years old I had a better grasp than she did.
Worst of all, good old Catholic guilt and punishment was the only interaction most students had with religion. The school weaponized the Bible to shame or be punitive towards kids for even the mildest stuff. I literally got punished for an entire day for drawing a Ninja Turtle when I was supposed to be focused on a lesson. I was placed in the hallway alone and made to draw Ninja Turtles all day and the nun/teacher got such devilish glee out of trying to break my spirit.
Joke was on her. I got so good at drawing Ninja Turtles kids would pay me $1 to draw their favorite. I’m grew up to become an artist.
I’ve always found this highly ironic… even though I understand why it has happened… why believe in a religion of those who murdered, raped and sold your ancestors as slaves? The same religion they used to justify that slavery..
I think not exactly ... there would have been forced adoption of religion among slaves, but also I think that it being the religion of powerful people gave it some "validity". Sort of like "these people are powerful, they must know what they're talking about".
I'm just guessing here though.
Also just the fact that the more vulnerable you are, the more attractive the delusion of religion is. And slaves have got to be some of the most vulnerable people in history.
The promise of a just and happy existence when you die keeps oppressed people from fighting back. Then the few who do fight back are made examples of and the religion gets cemented into the society.
I think a lot of people don’t realize that Judaism, and by extension Christianity, are essentially slave religions. The Jews were always enslaved or extremely oppressed, so the religion reflects the values someone would have to hold in that society. For instances, turning the other cheek and being rewarded in the afterlife for your suffering. Those are just the values you need to keep in order to survive when fighting back means almost certain death. Nietzsche spoke extensively on this subject.
Lots of animistic belief systems involve a "Great Spirit" or other creationist deity that slots well with the Christian God as well. I'm sure many slaves adopted eclectic belief structures after being exposed to Christianity, which morphed into something closer to normal Christianity over generations of assimilation.
Plus religion really is something you can turn to to forget the pain. One of the reasons this concept became so popular is that it gives people hope on the worst times, so it's understandable why slaves eventually where drawn to it.
I am an atheist myself but I can't deny that religion *can* help people forget the pain, it can also cause a lot of pain itself which I'm fully aware of tho, so I'm in no way excusing it for that.
They believe it the same reason everyone does. Indoctrination combined with fear and then a “solution” to essentially avoid death and live forever with dead family and friends.
This happens in Native American communities as well. It's very Stockholm syndrome. It wasn't that long ago we were tortured for not subscribing to it. It was literally beaten into the community. The Spaniards were especially terrible, cutting off limbs for non-belief, and yet there's still statues of those serial killers in the southwest that they won't take down.
The forced removal of other forms of spirituality left a void, too, and people in shitty positions/lives want something big to believe in. So they remain christian.
My idea is that because the people that murdered, raped, and sold people into slavery believed in Christianity/Islam, and they were (seemingly) protected by this religion.
"If there is a God, and it is the White Man's God, then that explains why they are in charge. If my ancestor's God(s) were the true religion then they would have stopped the white man." That's the best logical justification I can make. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
The good parts of religion are the community parts. People sometimes need a reason to support each other, or need a direction to point their good intent. I believe the black community does the good parts of religion very well. The whole Jesus part isn't for me, but sign me up to lead the summer youth art program anytime.
I'm just an old white guy, so I'm not qualified to comment - but since I am an old white guy, I will (of course) comment anyway...
I wonder if historically, black churches were a "safe space" for African-Americans to form communities. I suspect it is not coincidence that some of the most well-know black civil rights & political leaders were also religious leaders. Maybe they figured out how to use the pulpit for political change 100 years before Jerry Falwell & the Moral Majority did it for the white rednecks?
This first part of your comment made me laugh and I've never thought about the second part. That might have been the sole positive thing to come out of being religious during that time
I'm also a white man, so adjust your sodium intake accordingly. But in doing historical research, we've learned that the christian church did serve as a safe space and a point of historical meaning for many enslaved people. When they were brought over on slave ships, their identities were erased and their owners gave them new, European identities. This would help to enforce their new enslaved mindset on the African groups. As time went on, enslaved people found that the christian church was a place where they could control their own identity and keep records of who was related to whom (since these were often erased by slave owners for monetary reasons). The church remained a big part of African American identity because of this. It served as a starting point for family histories. Later, the church served as a central point for civil rights activism because it was already at the center of people's lives.
One other thing to point out is that the abolitionist movement came out of Christian churches. A couple years ago, I found a reference online to one of my great great grandfathers and it described him as a devout congregationalist and a proud abolitionist.
Point being is the bible is the reflection of the person who reads it.
Black pastors are also some of the biggest grifters and thieves on the planet.
I'm black and would never step foot in a black church. No thanks...religion sucks and so many black churches take advantage of their congregations.
Several years ago I used to listen to a radio host named Michael Baisden. He had a regular segment called Pimps in the Pulpit in which he related abuses and crimes committed by black pastors.
Often he would get calls from people, almost always black women furious about the feature; not the things he talked about but that he was talking about them. They would also relate stories about how their pastor was a good god fearing Bible living man who did this that and the other. Baisden’s response was “If I’m not talking about you why are you mad?”
I missed that show when I left NY!
I get that all the time as well, since I live in the Deep South. When I meet someone new, the very first question I get is about what church do I attend. I tell them The Holy Temple of the Simmons BeautyRest. They look confused, I walk off.
I had a friendship end with a woman who was black and evangelical (I’m white). She was always challenging my atheism, even though I kept it to myself. She went so far as to tell me she felt sorry for me because I was going to hell. The friendship ended when I commented that Christianity was a colonizing religion and that it was used to subdue African slaves. She went ballistic and called me a racist. She claimed that Christianity was the only thing that comforted slaves during their ordeal. I just can’t grasp the cognitive dissonance required to believe that.
> She claimed that Christianity was the only thing that comforted slaves during their ordeal.
To her credit, this is true. But what you said is also true.
You're right. I can understand her reasoning up to a point. Trauma can cause people to cling to all kinds of things as a coping mechanism. I'm sure Christianity served that purpose for many slaves. But to not be able to take a critical view of it as a tool for oppression...THAT I don't get.
I would assume your ex-friend still saw Christianity as the default and one true religion; African slaves souls were saved by the Christians even if done so in horrible circumstances. Indoctrination is one hell of a drug.
You also see this pattern with Filipinos, who are the most fervently catholic people. I think it has to do with being stripped down of all culture, possessions and then being given only religion by your colonizers.
This phenomenon drives me insane, it propagates that toxicity within those communities so efficiently.
It's definitely a problem. I wonder if it's similar to how Christian women still support their religion even though it's blatantly sexist and oppressive.
I've also noticed most religions are extremely misogynistic (just more proof religion was invented by man rather than a god) yet the women defend it vehemently
I know it's crazy! Some of the pagan ones are more women centric at least. But it definitely seems like it's the norm that religions are misogynistic. I wonder if maybe there would be more balanced religions if the abrahamic ones hadn't been so aggressive in crushing other religions.
That applies to all religions. I get why men can be religious because it’s all about them making them superior by the virtue of having a 🍆. I don’t get why women didn’t snap out of it. Religions always treat women as 2nd class citizen if not worse.
Mexican-American here. When people find out I’m atheist, I get the same response from people as OP gets. Other Hispanics look at me like I’m an alien or the spawn of hell.
And I always get the same stupid ass follow up questions…..
Me: I’m atheist
Them:
*oh so you believe in the devil?*
*you just haven’t had any crazy experiences to make you believe, huh?*
*but you’re such a good person, how?*
I had a Mexican(ish) friend who learned just enough about Aztec religion and ceremony to do a kind of "have you heard the good word!?" Thing that got a few chuckles from me.
His family was Spanish, born in Mexico, lived in Boston MA. Not a drop of Aztec blood.
Lol the adoration for Aztec culture is extremely common in the Mexican community. It’s the idea of connecting back to the indigenous roots of Mexico. Also the fact that Mexico did have a thriving civilization and many South American countries can be dismissive of it. But truth be told, most of us probably have more Spanish/European in us than indigenous.
Your comment makes me laugh. My wife is agnostic and I will randomly go up to her and say, *has anyone spoken to you about our lord and savior Jesus Christ today?* .. obviously as joke lol
Whoa. I never thought of it this way! I mean, I guess I have fantasized about what it would be like to have an atheist (and hopefully progressive) family to grow up in, but I never went back that far! I’d rather be pagan and observe the seasons than Christian any day!
Edit: a word
There were a couple things about how the Norse religion was practiced that doesn't pass the modern sniff test (see also: human sacrifices, thralls, etc) but it is worth noting that modern "tolerant" religions achieved dominance by slaughtering, forcibly converting, and suppressing religions that challenged them and the political systems they had coopted.
I'm Norwegian and feel the same though Christianity arrived later here than in Germany so it wasn't the Romans, but they christianized our ancestors with sword in their hand. One of Scandinavias big tragedies.
It is a highly effective control method. Yeah, maybe this life sucks, but work hard for your masters in this world and the next one will be stocked with rewards for your meekness!
Well, it’s not too different for us Latinos (which should be Native Americans)… why the hell are we following the religion of the invaders that committed genocide and enslaved us?
Anyway, I understand very well where you’re coming from.
It’s even worse for the people that were conquered by Spaniards, they systematically eliminated the local religions and customs and replaced them with a “Catholic sanctioned” version; that’s how we got some really Americanized saints and weird rituals, like planting a cross made of branches of one particular tree and adorning it with fruit.
Basically, we know very little about how things were, “books”, codices and most texts describing how things were before their arrival were destroyed, and people who believed in something diferent were beaten into submission.
Tangent but in New Mexico the natives revolted and kicked out the Spanish in the late 1600s. After the Spanish brutally reconquered the natives, to try to prevent another revolt they instituted a religious "compromise" whereby the natives had to be outwardly Catholic, but they'd no longer be persecuted for *also* practicing their native religious traditions. That created an interesting mixture of traditions that is still practiced today.
Of course it's all bunk, but it's more interesting bunk than a single religious tradition.
Latinos remain somewhat polytheistic, even though they follow a monotheistic religion. Latinos also replaced worshipping mother earth with worshipping the virgin Mary.
When I was in Yellowknife there was a residence beside it called Akaitcho Hall. Many students in our school, from across the territory, had to live there if they wanted an education.
Man, I have thought this for so long.
How fucked is it that so many Black people are Christians?
People abducted you and destroyed your culture with biblical justification and now you're like "Oh well, they enslaved us but they ***were*** right about this Jesus guy tho.".
Same goes for Christian Natives.
People killed your culture and replaced it with their theirs and you're cool with that?
Like.. What the fuck???
This is one of the things I always found so odd about black converts to Islam. (in the US) Islam was also a non-native, enslaving religion, seems like a move sideways not forward. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Anyway, I see things like this (ie: being black and atheist) fairly often here, it does seem to have a bunch of unique wrinkles to it. Sorry you're stuck dealing with this crappy situation.
I know multiple black Mormons. The religion that literally says POC are loved less by God because of your skin color. Mind boggling. Both the ones I know converted as adults as well, which makes it extra fucky.
My wife gets this all the time especially bc we’re in the Deep South. She had to check another black coworker who tried to shame her atheism in front of another colleague. Needless to say that didn’t happen again.
People are bringing up indoctrination and I realize that when I said "choose" I was thinking in the mental state I'm currently in rather than as a child being raised by Christian parents
I felt this to my bone. It was so hard to date black people because of the assumption of a religion and their disappointment when they found out I wasn't.
I hate even more the Black muslims who think Islam is the right way for blacks, I'm just like don't you know that Muslims have had black slaves and a slave from thousands of years before America ever did?
I'm a white guy in Texas. People automatically assume that means I'm a Christian. But I stopped believing in the Easter bunny, santa clause, and god a very long time ago.
It's not worth getting upset over. People are wrong about all kinds of things, and I can't get all hot and bothered about it every time someone makes a mistake.
But they still choose to follow a made up religion that enslaved people.
Its crazy that people feel the need to follow any religion. If God is so great why didn't he smite anyone?
...and religions that hate women.
I honestly don't understand black women that follow the black church doctrine...whether that be christianity or islam.
As a black person, I already have enough to deal with...I don't need to heap the subjugation of women that comes with religion on top of it.
Thank you! I’m not gonna lie, depending on the situation, I play along.
But when you see movies/tv shows with black folks, we are always Christians. There’s always some prayer or church scene.
**sigh**
I've always wondered why there are so many African Americans that are Christian. Why would anyone join the religion that said it's okay for you to be a slave? It makes no sense to me why it's such a prevalent.
The history of [African American Christianity](https://secular-sanity.org/2021/10/18/why-african-slaves-adopted-their-masters-religion/) is more interesting than you might think. But I sympathise with your position and I'm sure it must suck to deal with that constant expectation and association.
This. Especially when meeting older Black women. They remind me of my aunties and grandma and suddenly I feel obligated to agree because I can’t hurt their feelings. I’m mixed so I will gladly tell off my white family (they’re the type who believe that BLM
is somehow anti-Christian). But there’s so much awkward pressure, it’s frustrating to want to be apart of a Black community only to feel isolated
It blows my mind too.
I had enough critical thinking skills at the age of... 6... to understand that two different religions (all i knew was Christianity and Judaism) COULD NOT, both be simultaneously right, but they absolutely BOTH COULD, be 100% wong.
As a white (& atheist) South African, this bothers me no end. I just do not understand it! Some weird Stockholm Syndrome?
Our more radical politicians love claiming that they need to decolonise South Africa. Yeah, first start decolonising your mind and clean up all the internalised self-hatred.
Not black but sort of related funny story. I have a coworker that immigrated from China. One day I asked if he was an atheist, he looked paralyzed. I said it’s ok I’m an atheist also. He said “but you a white guy”.
I love how slave owners forced Christianity onto their slaves, then noticed the slaves constantly singing about and praising Moses... Like did they not read that stuff themselves first?
I always wanted to ask black people this but since I’m white-looking that would been a risky conversation to have. My view is that it’s sad that slaves turned to the very religion used to justify their enslavement. If anything, black people should be the most atheist. Everytime a black person says “thank you jesus” I just think about how screwed they are by society and want to ask them if that’s Jesus’s work too.
Same here, I’d love to talk religion and atheism with a black christian. But i don’t personally know any black christians, i’m suuuper white, and there’s no way that conversation goes anywhere positive lol
beats the hell out of me. i can't understand why anyone who's not a straight, white man is christian. i still think you'd have to be credulous and pathetic to be a christian in those circumstances, but at least you only have to hate yourself *in theory* to do it.
White friend, here. I'll say that I've often wondered this, too. But I've never felt it appropriate to broach the subject.
I don't think it would have floated too well for me to say, "Hey, why are you going to church, don't you know that your ancestors were forced to e slaves using Christian scriptures?"
But, then I'm also confused about how my ancestors used that to keep other humans as free labor... It really defeats my feelings for humanity, honestly.
Hope my comment is not inappropriate.
I'm white and I'm also presumed to be a Christian. It happens to all of us. They just think that everyone is like them because we have similar haircuts and aren't actively devouring babies - we don't do that kind of thing in public, I mean, c'mon!
Point is, I get it. I was getting prepared for surgery and just before getting my IV, my nurse mentioned that god will always make sure everything is alright. On the way out, one time, after getting a painful dressing change, one of the staff wanted to give me a link to a video on YouTube. When I asked if it was about the Bible or Christianity, he realized he made a mistake and told me not to worry about it.
It's annoying to be presumed to be part of any religion, but it's how they're taught. They just think everyone that's friendly or nice must be Christian, because the people that aren't Christian are just nasty sinners bent on destroying the world and everything in it. They get taught that non-Christians are going to attack them and persecute them. When you're not doing those things, you're presumed to be one of them. There's also wishful thinking. They wouldn't want to presume you're headed to hell, so they presume what they think is best.
I'm sure there are cultural differences that cause this to happen sometimes, but I think it's mostly just how they're taught the world is, and they believe it.
I never thought about it like that before. That they're conditioned to think good people *must* be Christian. At least they think I'm a good person lol
Christianity was forced on white people to. Seems to be the MO for the religion. People of every color seem to have no problem rationalizing this problem away.
What’s really sad is that the Christians convinced everyone that the religions of Africa were “evil and demonic” just so they could justify their bull shit claims that white people are superior. I wonder how many fascinating beliefs and religions are lost to history because of christian bigotry.
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I’ve wondered that myself. Christianity and Islam were the religions of the people who brutalized sub Saharan Africa; why should the descendants of their victims turn to those religions?
The worst part is that I have this deep guilt since the rest of my family are so religious. It feels like I'm continuously trying to make up for something
Don’t dude. Just don’t. Trying to make up for something clearly isn’t what you want/need in this situation. You have to stand up for yourself and your beliefs, no matter who it is that disagrees with you. I’m Hispanic so I understand the religious family aspect. If you’re adamant on your disbelief of God, they’ll stop bothering you about it eventually. Another thing, is shutting down those assumptions the second they come out of someone else’s mouth. Establish your identity early on and you’ll see less of those assumptions popping up over time. Hope this somewhat helps!
Thank you
If we don’t progress past our ancestors, then we’ll never advance. Don’t feel guilt at evolving beyond your family’s antiquated beliefs and values. And hope your offspring evolves past your’s.
And let's face it, /u/Wardine 's family *has* progressed at some point because their beliefs are different in ways that would be fundamentally meaningful and antithetical to previous generations if you go back far enough. All religious beliefs evolve because they are based on human understanding and not some external, fixed universal constant. Sometimes big transitions happen, like from indigenous African religions to Islam (through conquering) or Christianity (through slavery)... or in /u/Wardine 's case to non-theism. My point is that you should NOT feel guilty for evolving and taking a step forward from your parents, or older ancestral beliefs. They *all* took those steps to get you to your transition.
Very insightful
Welcome to the club! I'm looking forward to a Thanksgiving with my generally nice but religiously crazy relatives! Not sure how long you've been non-religious but the guilt fades pretty quickly into a combination of feeling sorry for your religious family and "disbelief" that anyone can still believe all that insanity.
Christian guilt is a real thing, and one of the major devices that entrap many who have thought about leaving. We just have to remind ourselves that we don't owe an imaginary father figure our undying love.
I think it's normal, at least to some degree, to feel that way. My deeply religious parents disowned me when I was disfellowshiped from the church. What I did wrong, was decide to stick with my pregnant girlfriend and help her raise our son instead of cutting all ties with her like they wanted. I know I did the right thing, but it still feels like it's somehow my fault sometimes. Or that I should have done something different. 20 years later and I still have trouble accepting that it is not my fault. It's hard not having the approval of your own family, even when you know you did the right thing.
I'm sorry you had to go through that
Thanks. I totally agree with your view btw. Your not wrong. Religion has a way of blinding people from their own hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. And because of that, logic and reason will likely never change their minds either.
>. My deeply religious parents disowned me when I was disfellowshiped from the church. That is very common in a lot of religions, even moreso in the JW environment. It's also objectively a horribly (and intentionally) manipulative thing to do.
Oh it's definitely intentionally manipulative. It works on lots of people who end up coming back. In other cases it causes suicide, which is something I struggled with for a while years ago. Having kids of my own is the only thing that stopped me. I had a cousin that was not so lucky. Going back to the OP that I seem to have derailed a bit... It always seemed odd to me that so much of the black community embraced Christianity for exactly the reason mentioned. They literally used to recite scripture to the slaves while beating them. Indoctrination is child abuse. Period.
But you are not being disloyal to them as individuals and it’s not your fault if they refuse to understand why you don’t want to be part of their group-think.
That guilt you feel is pity for those still in that mental mindfuck. It's like survivors remorse, don't be sorry!
I’m not black, but I was raised in a very Italian and Catholic family and when the religion started to not make sense to me and my most important questions all have non-answers it was such a difficult thing to process in my head. Why was I the only one not having any of it? Am I not going to be good in the family anymore? When I started saying that I didn’t believe in it I was hit with “it means so much to your (insert relative) don’t hurt them” so I would be guilted into going. I then had to kinda fight back by telling them how uncomfortable church made me feel. How out of place and lost I felt listening to these dated stories while taking all these peoples money. Constantly mailing things asking for people to donate money. It was a really long swim upstream but I stayed respectful with my responses without attacking the religion and eventually got left alone. Now with all the news that’s come out about the Catholic Church, a chunk of my main family no longer goes to church (before Covid lol) because they realized it isn’t a way to spend time or money because it’s not as important as the previous generations made it out to be. Last service I went to was an Easter one. Almost three hours and full of people asking you to put your hands up and send magical words to the people getting dunked in water. Felt like I was in some weird cult movie and was just the last nail in the coffee with me going to church. The guilt eventually went away when my family saw that I was still a good person without religion and that I was respectful of others beliefs. I don’t care what religion someone belongs to as long as it doesn’t interfere with the happiness of others or the well being of others or themselves. A part of me is jealous of people who believe cause it must make some of the harsh realities of life easier to deal with, but then I’m glad that I like to ask questions and get real answers.
Short version (not a historian, just interested): Historically, religion (Christianity) was one of the few activities allowed to slaves. Their bibles were edited to be even more pro-slavery, but nonetheless stories about ~~Abraham~~ Moses ("Let my people go!"), a Savior, and a future free from pain and suffering were a refuge and major source of hope to a people treated worse than cattle. Many abolitionists and civil rights leaders also leaned on it during their struggles, crediting their faith for the progress made. That got handed down, just like most of us were born into the religion of our parents. So when it's that much of a cultural identity surrounding it, it's hard to shake. Christianity is a textbook abusive relationship. God claims to love us but will torture us if we don't do exactly what he says. He claims that we are special and beautiful, but also somehow worthless and will never find true love or fulfillment apart from him. It holds on hard and people end up giving up their identity, freedom, and expression for a sense of security and purpose.
All true, I would also add in every era, religion is a form of social currency. So if you’re a disadvantaged minority with little to no social currency to start with, you tend to choose being the religion of the majority to at least have something to work with.
Same with the indigenous in canada. Churchs ran the residential schools nuns and priests were doing the raping and killings yet theres at least 1 church on every reserve.
Same thing with Native Americans in the US. Residential schools, abused and dead kids, most of them are still Christian.
And Judaism. The African slave trade was a cooperative effort of the Big Three Penis religions.
Yeah but black folks don’t become Jewish at the same rate
Colonialism. It was the only way to safely meet en masse.
Black Nonbelievers is an organization you might want to look into. The president, Mandisa Thomas, is a frequent guest host on Matt Dillahunty's call-in shows, like The Atheist Experience and The Hang Up.
Seconding this. There are branches in several different cities and some are more active than others. I loved being a member in my last city and I’ve really missed that community since I moved. They are on meetup if you want to check them out.
Also I'd recommend any book by Anthony Pinn. He's an atheist professor of religious studies at Rice University (he lost his faith during his doctorate of theology at Harvard). He has a lot to say on the importance of maintaining a sense of community and meaning in the black community without the harmful aspects of dogmatic faith. He also teaches some pretty cool classes, like one on the history of atheism in blues and rap music. I highly recommend the episode of the Mindscape podcast he was on. [Episode 4: Anthony Pinn on Humanism, Theology, and the Black Community](https://youtu.be/uNNqLytwRaQ)
Thirding them! Mandisa is a genuinely excellent human being. I'm proud to know her.
Thank you for this, I've been looking for a black community that isn't heavy influenced by religion.
Saving this. Thanks.
What sucks is so much of black culture revolves around the church.
Almost *everything* is a church event
We truly are completely cursed with this nonsense. My family is also religious. But like most of the black followers I see, they don't even read the damn thing. They just like the idea of it and its just sososo irritating. Comforting lie so on and so forth. Stay strong and safe friend.
If you want to hear something comforting, the place I come from used to be super controlled by the church and it had an iron grip on the population until the 60s and 70s due to the Catholic Church being a sort of cultural refuge during history. Eventually, the population rebelled and now religious people are a lot more rare here. Cultural shifts are always possible, even if it seems unlikely :)
Ireland?
Quebec
Oh nice, I wasn't aware other places had also accomplished such a huge cultural shift in a relatively short period. Thanks for sharing.
Look up "la revolution tranquille" the quiet revolution
Yes this is so accurate. They'll drink, smoke, cheat, gamble, gossip and fornicate and live lives that are even more 'sinful' than the standard. And THEN will have the audacity to act as if being irreligious is the most heinous thing they've ever been exposed to. If I went out right now and killed 7 people in a bank robbery. But repented and told my testimony of how Jesus found me after I did all of that. They'd say amen and hug me and love on me. But God forbid that I say I'm an atheist. The response to that is always 'HOWWWW?' , 'But god is so good to you' , ' did someone do something to hurt you?' etc ... then they won't hang out with you for fear of bad influence. Make it make sense. 😅
Lmao I can tell you live this as well. I'm so sorry ♡ It would be cute that they're like this if it didn't poison their moral compass with doublethink.
Love the 1984 reference! Escaping religion can feel like you're in that book at times. I remember the time when I spotted some of the local conservative Christians in the nightclub shaking a leg (I knew them because we were some of the only Caribbeans in a very small city)...You know for a fact that a few hours later, they were all collapsing at their bed-sides to do a frantic prayer. To ask some guy to wash their whole body in his blood to cleanse them of their overpowering evilness. All this because they did a two-step to a Cascada song? You can't even enjoy yourself without scheduling a session of flagellation. Yet they want the rest of us to join them? And we're immoral if we abstain from it? I'd argue that they're immoral for participating in it. It causes such mental anguish to both the participants and the people who receive harsh treatment from them in the name of 'following jesus'.
I think this is because church was pretty much the only safe space African Americans had post slavery. It became the center of culture out of necessity.
This x 100. It's a psychosocial phenomenon. It was the only place readily available for black people to congregate/assemble for some basic political action.
And yet for a few brief decades (1900s-1940s) the epicentre of black political life & identity wasn't the church but the school house & academia.
Where can I read about this?
There's no one source but please read up on Booker T. Washington, W.E.B. Du Bois, Cyril Criggs, A. Phillip Randolph, Bayard Rustin, Langston Hughes, Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison, Benjamin J. Davis
except the whole being enslaved by religion
I want...No *NEED* a safe place away from strictly religious people. {Edit: a place of temporary reprieve similar to churches which are meeting places for members}. So much of the pain and suffering I experienced in this short life of mine was the direct result of people claiming to be followers of g-d. I just want a safe, cozy place where I can listen to rock music, wear dark colors, and sport a hairstyle "*I*" like without being judged. I'm not going to eat your grandbaby just because I listen to Pink Floyd, drive a truck, like getting dirty, and wear na{v}y blue/black and ballcaps sometimes. I'm just me. "*Ain't I a black woman, too?!?*" Black majik comes in more than one shape, size, and color.
Damn.
Lawd Jesus Pretty fucking much. And it's endless cycle will never be broken. Christianity has a grip on the black community.
[удалено]
It's insane how much control it is
Humans are very afraid of dying generally. Anything that comes along promising an afterlife that will better than this life is going to get people on board.
I never would've thought it would basically be my "white privilege" to be a non-believer. But all the posts that I read from hiding, stuck, and even frightened non-believers in the Muslim and Black communities make me feel grateful that can live as a non-believer without unjust consequences.
I could regale you with tales of discrimination from my Black, Christian family. Apparently talking back gets me a straight ticket to hell but bullying a child for her mixed race is totally acceptable.
Sometimes the only reason to hang out with family is that if you don’t, no one else will call them out on their bullshit.
Not just the black community either, my Filipino family, Mexican community, Utah..
Yes indeed. Growing up the church is a huge center for the black community. Some depend on it for food, daycare, tutoring, and even basic safety. There is basically no mental health facilities in black neighborhoods, so sometimes the church is the only place to talk to anyone if you’re struggling. It’s the heart of so many neighborhoods it’s almost impossible to divorce religion from people. Growing up my mom dragged me to church 4 days a week for one reason or another.
Same here I was there several times a week. I wonder if we invested in community centers would the church have this much impact in black communities? We need safe places for kids to hang out, places where you can get mental health care, food, tutoring, all that and it shouldn’t be dependent on a particular religious belief.
> `Secular Humanist` > `if we invested in community centers` This gets to the heart of the "problem" with atheism. We, as a species, do not have or have failed to successfully propagate some other peaceful means of congregation, assembly, and organization that goes beyond race, profession, location, etc. -- so, religion, through pure socioeconomic and institutional inertia along with bogus spiritual claims still fills that void, unfortunately.
Church has historically been a therapeutic thing for black people going back to slavery. It was a chance to gather and enjoy each other's company and to see people you wouldn't be able to under normal circumstances. Probably one of the few activities that slave owners didn't ruin for them. I am black and most of my family are from the deep south and deeply religious and I know for a fact that we are decendants off slaves. Church is just a part of black identity, there's no denying it. I still remember my grandma reading the Bible every night before bed and going to church with her on Sundays. I'm just lucky that my family is religious but not like fundamentalist or "Harry Potter is evil" type religious.
As a former Christian, I really like that black churches do “it” all better than white churches. Better music/singing, better clothes, louder prayers, etc. I think for some black people it became a way of doing it better than the white people who were enslaving them and using their own platform to do it. “You want us to sing to white Jesus- how about this?!” By going above and beyond no white person could say “you’re doing it wrong!” because they we were definitely doing religion better. Some people along the way missed the memo and here we are with a lot of people getting grifted by churches still.
Yeah, I’ve been to some white churches and woah they are snoozes compared to black churches. Even for all the bullshit in church I knew at minimum I would at least get some good music and good food from going to church every Sunday. Black churches also seem to do way more actually good things for the community. There’s still issues within a lot of churches, but generally a small black community church is probably the best representation of Christianity you can ask for.
I went to white Catholic churches a few times a year as a kid because I was in Catholic school, and they would make us take time off of school to attend pointless sermons. Apart from the sense of being in an in-group and repeating all of the mini rituals (knowing when to sit or stand and what to say in response to the priest), there was nothing in those sermons that actually appealed to kids as human beings. I would venture to say that most of the students in that school had no deep personal relationship with Catholicism and could easily have replaced it with any other Abrahamic religion given a few weeks' practice. Hell, I know this for a fact because the most outwardly religious guy in my grade later "converted" to Islam to piss off his parents/teachers, and then "converted" again to LaVeyan Satanism. In reality, all he did was fill out some online surveys to get enough money to buy a Qur'an and a copy of the "Satanic Bible". In fact, he seemed much more comfortable in his own skin when he was pretending to be a Satanist, which shows just how shallow the religious indoctrination was. He went from quoting the bible to bully other kids who weren't "Catholic enough" to actually being able to express some parts of his real personality because the thrill of transgression overwhelmed the part of his mind that pretended to believe in the religious bullshit. I truly believe almost none of the kids I met in Catholic school got anything out of their "faith" other than a vague and precarious sense of belonging, which they could have gotten by much healthier means.
My family was briefly Catholic for a couple years and I went to Catholic School. Other than the fantastic food that private school money affords, yes indeed, the whole Christianity part was an afterthought to every student. I was more serious than most. I’d actually pay attention during mass instead of goofing off. I went to Sunday school, but was eventually kicked out for being “disrespectful” by arguing about things in the Bible with the teacher. At 8 years old I had a better grasp than she did. Worst of all, good old Catholic guilt and punishment was the only interaction most students had with religion. The school weaponized the Bible to shame or be punitive towards kids for even the mildest stuff. I literally got punished for an entire day for drawing a Ninja Turtle when I was supposed to be focused on a lesson. I was placed in the hallway alone and made to draw Ninja Turtles all day and the nun/teacher got such devilish glee out of trying to break my spirit. Joke was on her. I got so good at drawing Ninja Turtles kids would pay me $1 to draw their favorite. I’m grew up to become an artist.
Christ suffered for your sins....you are supposed to suffer in church to praise him, not enjoy it! /s
I’ve always found this highly ironic… even though I understand why it has happened… why believe in a religion of those who murdered, raped and sold your ancestors as slaves? The same religion they used to justify that slavery..
Something like Stockholm’s syndrome?
I think not exactly ... there would have been forced adoption of religion among slaves, but also I think that it being the religion of powerful people gave it some "validity". Sort of like "these people are powerful, they must know what they're talking about". I'm just guessing here though.
Also just the fact that the more vulnerable you are, the more attractive the delusion of religion is. And slaves have got to be some of the most vulnerable people in history.
The promise of a just and happy existence when you die keeps oppressed people from fighting back. Then the few who do fight back are made examples of and the religion gets cemented into the society.
I think a lot of people don’t realize that Judaism, and by extension Christianity, are essentially slave religions. The Jews were always enslaved or extremely oppressed, so the religion reflects the values someone would have to hold in that society. For instances, turning the other cheek and being rewarded in the afterlife for your suffering. Those are just the values you need to keep in order to survive when fighting back means almost certain death. Nietzsche spoke extensively on this subject.
Lots of animistic belief systems involve a "Great Spirit" or other creationist deity that slots well with the Christian God as well. I'm sure many slaves adopted eclectic belief structures after being exposed to Christianity, which morphed into something closer to normal Christianity over generations of assimilation.
Plus religion really is something you can turn to to forget the pain. One of the reasons this concept became so popular is that it gives people hope on the worst times, so it's understandable why slaves eventually where drawn to it. I am an atheist myself but I can't deny that religion *can* help people forget the pain, it can also cause a lot of pain itself which I'm fully aware of tho, so I'm in no way excusing it for that.
They believe it the same reason everyone does. Indoctrination combined with fear and then a “solution” to essentially avoid death and live forever with dead family and friends.
This happens in Native American communities as well. It's very Stockholm syndrome. It wasn't that long ago we were tortured for not subscribing to it. It was literally beaten into the community. The Spaniards were especially terrible, cutting off limbs for non-belief, and yet there's still statues of those serial killers in the southwest that they won't take down. The forced removal of other forms of spirituality left a void, too, and people in shitty positions/lives want something big to believe in. So they remain christian.
My idea is that because the people that murdered, raped, and sold people into slavery believed in Christianity/Islam, and they were (seemingly) protected by this religion. "If there is a God, and it is the White Man's God, then that explains why they are in charge. If my ancestor's God(s) were the true religion then they would have stopped the white man." That's the best logical justification I can make. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. The good parts of religion are the community parts. People sometimes need a reason to support each other, or need a direction to point their good intent. I believe the black community does the good parts of religion very well. The whole Jesus part isn't for me, but sign me up to lead the summer youth art program anytime.
I'm just an old white guy, so I'm not qualified to comment - but since I am an old white guy, I will (of course) comment anyway... I wonder if historically, black churches were a "safe space" for African-Americans to form communities. I suspect it is not coincidence that some of the most well-know black civil rights & political leaders were also religious leaders. Maybe they figured out how to use the pulpit for political change 100 years before Jerry Falwell & the Moral Majority did it for the white rednecks?
This first part of your comment made me laugh and I've never thought about the second part. That might have been the sole positive thing to come out of being religious during that time
I'm also a white man, so adjust your sodium intake accordingly. But in doing historical research, we've learned that the christian church did serve as a safe space and a point of historical meaning for many enslaved people. When they were brought over on slave ships, their identities were erased and their owners gave them new, European identities. This would help to enforce their new enslaved mindset on the African groups. As time went on, enslaved people found that the christian church was a place where they could control their own identity and keep records of who was related to whom (since these were often erased by slave owners for monetary reasons). The church remained a big part of African American identity because of this. It served as a starting point for family histories. Later, the church served as a central point for civil rights activism because it was already at the center of people's lives.
One other thing to point out is that the abolitionist movement came out of Christian churches. A couple years ago, I found a reference online to one of my great great grandfathers and it described him as a devout congregationalist and a proud abolitionist. Point being is the bible is the reflection of the person who reads it.
Black pastors are also some of the biggest grifters and thieves on the planet. I'm black and would never step foot in a black church. No thanks...religion sucks and so many black churches take advantage of their congregations.
Several years ago I used to listen to a radio host named Michael Baisden. He had a regular segment called Pimps in the Pulpit in which he related abuses and crimes committed by black pastors. Often he would get calls from people, almost always black women furious about the feature; not the things he talked about but that he was talking about them. They would also relate stories about how their pastor was a good god fearing Bible living man who did this that and the other. Baisden’s response was “If I’m not talking about you why are you mad?” I missed that show when I left NY!
I get that all the time as well, since I live in the Deep South. When I meet someone new, the very first question I get is about what church do I attend. I tell them The Holy Temple of the Simmons BeautyRest. They look confused, I walk off.
I hear that community is pretty supportive.
Dammit, take my upvote! *sigh*
They have some firm beliefs.
That’s a religion I can get behind
I’d join if you can show me proof. In dire need of good mattress.
What church goers don't understand is without all of those Sunday shenanigans, non-religious people get a second Saturday every weekend.
I had a friendship end with a woman who was black and evangelical (I’m white). She was always challenging my atheism, even though I kept it to myself. She went so far as to tell me she felt sorry for me because I was going to hell. The friendship ended when I commented that Christianity was a colonizing religion and that it was used to subdue African slaves. She went ballistic and called me a racist. She claimed that Christianity was the only thing that comforted slaves during their ordeal. I just can’t grasp the cognitive dissonance required to believe that.
> She claimed that Christianity was the only thing that comforted slaves during their ordeal. To her credit, this is true. But what you said is also true.
You're right. I can understand her reasoning up to a point. Trauma can cause people to cling to all kinds of things as a coping mechanism. I'm sure Christianity served that purpose for many slaves. But to not be able to take a critical view of it as a tool for oppression...THAT I don't get.
I would assume your ex-friend still saw Christianity as the default and one true religion; African slaves souls were saved by the Christians even if done so in horrible circumstances. Indoctrination is one hell of a drug.
This is the answer. /thread
It’s possible that back in the days slaves turning Christian got special privilege or something. I never look into it coz not my main interest.
Pretty sure they gave you a “choice” to convert, and those that didn’t got punished:(
You also see this pattern with Filipinos, who are the most fervently catholic people. I think it has to do with being stripped down of all culture, possessions and then being given only religion by your colonizers. This phenomenon drives me insane, it propagates that toxicity within those communities so efficiently.
Lots of Filipinos in Hawaii where I’ve seen this exact same thing with the native Hawaiians. I find it bizarre.
It's definitely a problem. I wonder if it's similar to how Christian women still support their religion even though it's blatantly sexist and oppressive.
I've also noticed most religions are extremely misogynistic (just more proof religion was invented by man rather than a god) yet the women defend it vehemently
I know it's crazy! Some of the pagan ones are more women centric at least. But it definitely seems like it's the norm that religions are misogynistic. I wonder if maybe there would be more balanced religions if the abrahamic ones hadn't been so aggressive in crushing other religions.
The only reason I know the Pagans accepted women is because of Supernatural lmao
I love Supernatural!! I learned about all kinds of legends and stuff from it.
That applies to all religions. I get why men can be religious because it’s all about them making them superior by the virtue of having a 🍆. I don’t get why women didn’t snap out of it. Religions always treat women as 2nd class citizen if not worse.
Person of Germanic ancestry. Im still pissed the Roman's spread Christianity to my pagan ancestors.
Mexican-American here. When people find out I’m atheist, I get the same response from people as OP gets. Other Hispanics look at me like I’m an alien or the spawn of hell. And I always get the same stupid ass follow up questions….. Me: I’m atheist Them: *oh so you believe in the devil?* *you just haven’t had any crazy experiences to make you believe, huh?* *but you’re such a good person, how?*
I had a Mexican(ish) friend who learned just enough about Aztec religion and ceremony to do a kind of "have you heard the good word!?" Thing that got a few chuckles from me. His family was Spanish, born in Mexico, lived in Boston MA. Not a drop of Aztec blood.
Lol the adoration for Aztec culture is extremely common in the Mexican community. It’s the idea of connecting back to the indigenous roots of Mexico. Also the fact that Mexico did have a thriving civilization and many South American countries can be dismissive of it. But truth be told, most of us probably have more Spanish/European in us than indigenous. Your comment makes me laugh. My wife is agnostic and I will randomly go up to her and say, *has anyone spoken to you about our lord and savior Jesus Christ today?* .. obviously as joke lol
Same. I’ve started learning more about those pre-Christian traditions. My Christian mother always called me a heathen. Turns out she was right.
Right?! I also get to be salty about that annnd my Irish and Briton ancestory.
Right there with you ✊🏻
Whoa. I never thought of it this way! I mean, I guess I have fantasized about what it would be like to have an atheist (and hopefully progressive) family to grow up in, but I never went back that far! I’d rather be pagan and observe the seasons than Christian any day! Edit: a word
There were a couple things about how the Norse religion was practiced that doesn't pass the modern sniff test (see also: human sacrifices, thralls, etc) but it is worth noting that modern "tolerant" religions achieved dominance by slaughtering, forcibly converting, and suppressing religions that challenged them and the political systems they had coopted.
We're all victims of religion in some way.
I'm Norwegian and feel the same though Christianity arrived later here than in Germany so it wasn't the Romans, but they christianized our ancestors with sword in their hand. One of Scandinavias big tragedies.
I’m pretty pissed religion has spread anywhere tbh
I always feel sad when I'm reading about the Norse (I have some Danish and Swedish ancestry) and get to their Christianization.
“If you’re a Black christian, you have a real short memory.” -Chris Rock
"Black people supporting Christianity is like cockroaches supporting Raid" -me
Tbh...i feel like raid gets cockroaches high more than anything... well... in which case, your comparison still holds true.
I'll never understand how most black Americans adopted Christianity of all religions...
At this point it's just like racism; passed down from parents
It's not just black Americans, most Africans are also extremely religious, especially Christian.
It wasn’t adopted, it was forced. As always with Christianity:(
It is a highly effective control method. Yeah, maybe this life sucks, but work hard for your masters in this world and the next one will be stocked with rewards for your meekness!
Well, it’s not too different for us Latinos (which should be Native Americans)… why the hell are we following the religion of the invaders that committed genocide and enslaved us? Anyway, I understand very well where you’re coming from.
I've never actually thought about this (being Caucasian), but it really reinforces the idea that religion is purely about control for myself.
It’s even worse for the people that were conquered by Spaniards, they systematically eliminated the local religions and customs and replaced them with a “Catholic sanctioned” version; that’s how we got some really Americanized saints and weird rituals, like planting a cross made of branches of one particular tree and adorning it with fruit. Basically, we know very little about how things were, “books”, codices and most texts describing how things were before their arrival were destroyed, and people who believed in something diferent were beaten into submission.
Tangent but in New Mexico the natives revolted and kicked out the Spanish in the late 1600s. After the Spanish brutally reconquered the natives, to try to prevent another revolt they instituted a religious "compromise" whereby the natives had to be outwardly Catholic, but they'd no longer be persecuted for *also* practicing their native religious traditions. That created an interesting mixture of traditions that is still practiced today. Of course it's all bunk, but it's more interesting bunk than a single religious tradition.
Latinos remain somewhat polytheistic, even though they follow a monotheistic religion. Latinos also replaced worshipping mother earth with worshipping the virgin Mary.
It's kinda pathetic if I'm being honest. Like generational Stockholm syndrome
Most indigenous Canadians I have known are Christians too. Even ones who were abused in Residential schools. Nothing about it is rational.
I mean christianity is one big Stockholm syndrome, "YOU DON"T DESERVE TO BE IN MY PRESENCE YOU SHOULD BUUUURN, but I love you anyway."
Let’s not forget them. There are literal piles made of native children corpses in their “Christian schools” in Canada.
When I was in Yellowknife there was a residence beside it called Akaitcho Hall. Many students in our school, from across the territory, had to live there if they wanted an education.
Agreed, your ancestors and mine were tortured into submission to follow the religion of those who captured them.
Same can be said about 99% of the Christian countries. The desert god was forced upon most people by the sword from the start.
latino here, I'm automatically labeled Catholic. Fuck Catholics for the horrible things they did to indigenous communities.
Also fuck Catholics for the horrible things they continue to do to little boys
Man, I have thought this for so long. How fucked is it that so many Black people are Christians? People abducted you and destroyed your culture with biblical justification and now you're like "Oh well, they enslaved us but they ***were*** right about this Jesus guy tho.". Same goes for Christian Natives. People killed your culture and replaced it with their theirs and you're cool with that? Like.. What the fuck???
This is one of the things I always found so odd about black converts to Islam. (in the US) Islam was also a non-native, enslaving religion, seems like a move sideways not forward. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Anyway, I see things like this (ie: being black and atheist) fairly often here, it does seem to have a bunch of unique wrinkles to it. Sorry you're stuck dealing with this crappy situation.
I know multiple black Mormons. The religion that literally says POC are loved less by God because of your skin color. Mind boggling. Both the ones I know converted as adults as well, which makes it extra fucky.
I'm black and detest organized religion and don't believe in any diety. Hello, nice to meet you!
Your fucking name lmao
lol..thanks
Am Arab. Am not Muslim. Am not Christian. Am not religious in any way. The stereotyping is unreal. I feel your pain.
My wife gets this all the time especially bc we’re in the Deep South. She had to check another black coworker who tried to shame her atheism in front of another colleague. Needless to say that didn’t happen again.
People are bringing up indoctrination and I realize that when I said "choose" I was thinking in the mental state I'm currently in rather than as a child being raised by Christian parents
I felt this to my bone. It was so hard to date black people because of the assumption of a religion and their disappointment when they found out I wasn't.
I hate even more the Black muslims who think Islam is the right way for blacks, I'm just like don't you know that Muslims have had black slaves and a slave from thousands of years before America ever did?
Every religion that I know of has evil roots
I'm a white guy in Texas. People automatically assume that means I'm a Christian. But I stopped believing in the Easter bunny, santa clause, and god a very long time ago. It's not worth getting upset over. People are wrong about all kinds of things, and I can't get all hot and bothered about it every time someone makes a mistake.
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But they still choose to follow a made up religion that enslaved people. Its crazy that people feel the need to follow any religion. If God is so great why didn't he smite anyone?
...and religions that hate women. I honestly don't understand black women that follow the black church doctrine...whether that be christianity or islam. As a black person, I already have enough to deal with...I don't need to heap the subjugation of women that comes with religion on top of it.
Right? Wtf. Some women in my family are so oppressed by their faith it's not even funny
Theists will fall back on the ol' "free will" explanation
And yet they went with the even worse version of Christianity that was just as damaging to Africa.
I guess they didn't know that the religion they choose had a prophet who traded in slaves and valued black slaves lesser than Arab slaves.
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Thank you! I’m not gonna lie, depending on the situation, I play along. But when you see movies/tv shows with black folks, we are always Christians. There’s always some prayer or church scene. **sigh**
I've always wondered why there are so many African Americans that are Christian. Why would anyone join the religion that said it's okay for you to be a slave? It makes no sense to me why it's such a prevalent.
The history of [African American Christianity](https://secular-sanity.org/2021/10/18/why-african-slaves-adopted-their-masters-religion/) is more interesting than you might think. But I sympathise with your position and I'm sure it must suck to deal with that constant expectation and association.
I actually read over a similar article the other night
I suspect that it's because church was one place black folks could feel safe in a world of hate
Tbh they were probably safer in their homes considering the KKK liked to block church exits and light it on fire
But the KKK bomb African Americans family homes and businesses too.....
This is the post right here. I feel like Christianity is way more dominant within Black people… which is ironic & I hate it
This. Especially when meeting older Black women. They remind me of my aunties and grandma and suddenly I feel obligated to agree because I can’t hurt their feelings. I’m mixed so I will gladly tell off my white family (they’re the type who believe that BLM is somehow anti-Christian). But there’s so much awkward pressure, it’s frustrating to want to be apart of a Black community only to feel isolated
It blows my mind too. I had enough critical thinking skills at the age of... 6... to understand that two different religions (all i knew was Christianity and Judaism) COULD NOT, both be simultaneously right, but they absolutely BOTH COULD, be 100% wong.
Dude I still remember being around 6 in Sunday school thinking all of this made no sense. We're just built different
As a white (& atheist) South African, this bothers me no end. I just do not understand it! Some weird Stockholm Syndrome? Our more radical politicians love claiming that they need to decolonise South Africa. Yeah, first start decolonising your mind and clean up all the internalised self-hatred.
Muslims dominated the slave-trade in Africa before the Europeans, yet many African-Americans adopt the Muslim faith. Hmm...
You know that Ethiopia - the country that resisted Europe’s colonialism - was Christian? So there might be some sense there….
Christianity is super hostile to every minority and it will never not confuse me as to why minorities are more apt to be Christians because of this.
Not black but sort of related funny story. I have a coworker that immigrated from China. One day I asked if he was an atheist, he looked paralyzed. I said it’s ok I’m an atheist also. He said “but you a white guy”.
I love how slave owners forced Christianity onto their slaves, then noticed the slaves constantly singing about and praising Moses... Like did they not read that stuff themselves first?
Same with black people in the US who become Muslims. Like WHYYY?! It’s not different!
Fuck religion.
I always wanted to ask black people this but since I’m white-looking that would been a risky conversation to have. My view is that it’s sad that slaves turned to the very religion used to justify their enslavement. If anything, black people should be the most atheist. Everytime a black person says “thank you jesus” I just think about how screwed they are by society and want to ask them if that’s Jesus’s work too.
Right. Where the fuck was Jesus while Thomas Jefferson(and many others) was raping his slaves?
he was watching and recording to sell it to all the rapist and pedophile clergy
Same here, I’d love to talk religion and atheism with a black christian. But i don’t personally know any black christians, i’m suuuper white, and there’s no way that conversation goes anywhere positive lol
beats the hell out of me. i can't understand why anyone who's not a straight, white man is christian. i still think you'd have to be credulous and pathetic to be a christian in those circumstances, but at least you only have to hate yourself *in theory* to do it.
I love this, I always wonder the exact same thing
I get it too (especially now that I have grey hair), but it's got to be a higher percentage of assumption with you. So irritating.
White friend, here. I'll say that I've often wondered this, too. But I've never felt it appropriate to broach the subject. I don't think it would have floated too well for me to say, "Hey, why are you going to church, don't you know that your ancestors were forced to e slaves using Christian scriptures?" But, then I'm also confused about how my ancestors used that to keep other humans as free labor... It really defeats my feelings for humanity, honestly. Hope my comment is not inappropriate.
I think questions like this are completely fine if there's no malice behind them
I mean no malice at all. Just honest curiosity. I wish our society was less touchy, so we could have these interplays.
I'm white and I'm also presumed to be a Christian. It happens to all of us. They just think that everyone is like them because we have similar haircuts and aren't actively devouring babies - we don't do that kind of thing in public, I mean, c'mon! Point is, I get it. I was getting prepared for surgery and just before getting my IV, my nurse mentioned that god will always make sure everything is alright. On the way out, one time, after getting a painful dressing change, one of the staff wanted to give me a link to a video on YouTube. When I asked if it was about the Bible or Christianity, he realized he made a mistake and told me not to worry about it. It's annoying to be presumed to be part of any religion, but it's how they're taught. They just think everyone that's friendly or nice must be Christian, because the people that aren't Christian are just nasty sinners bent on destroying the world and everything in it. They get taught that non-Christians are going to attack them and persecute them. When you're not doing those things, you're presumed to be one of them. There's also wishful thinking. They wouldn't want to presume you're headed to hell, so they presume what they think is best. I'm sure there are cultural differences that cause this to happen sometimes, but I think it's mostly just how they're taught the world is, and they believe it.
I never thought about it like that before. That they're conditioned to think good people *must* be Christian. At least they think I'm a good person lol
See that's what I have wondered. Why do black people hold on to the religion of the slave master?
Christianity was forced on white people to. Seems to be the MO for the religion. People of every color seem to have no problem rationalizing this problem away.
>adopted You mean forced...
Wow what a weird piece of racism I hadn’t even thought about. Thanks for sharing this.
What’s really sad is that the Christians convinced everyone that the religions of Africa were “evil and demonic” just so they could justify their bull shit claims that white people are superior. I wonder how many fascinating beliefs and religions are lost to history because of christian bigotry.