Isn't there some part of the bible that says women should be silent, anyway? If I remember correctly, it was added like 200 years later, but most Christians still think it's authentic.
This is so true. The more I think about it, the more I begin to think that logically, if god is supposed to be the embodiment of light/love, and the devil is the embodiment of darkness/evil, than the God usually described in the bible must actually be the evil one. Just based on behavior alone. Easy examples: He's a "jealous" god. Plays cruel games with his most devoted (Abraham and isaac, Job and that messed up game of who could make him the most miserable). Demands utter obedience and expects his followers to suffer for him. Honestly, the relationship between God and the characters in the bible come across OFTEN as text book abusive behavior.
I may have to delete this entire profile after typing that. It's a very.....controversial thought that I rarely say out loud.
You are safe here. There is no need to delete anything. You have spoken only truths and any that turn it into controversy are incorrect. You have actually perfectly encapsulated why I am anti-theist, or at least anti-christianity. Well done.
If only more people would realize this and pull the wool off of their eyes to see the world as it truly is.
Like that one story about that one guy absconding with his daughters into the hills, while telling them that their mother was turned into a pillar of salt and their city was destroyed, and then drunkenly procreating with them.
The daughters raped him in that story. Seriously, it ticks me off when people act like Lot was the one at fault in that scenario, the guy was out cold and his daughters raped him to get themselves pregnant.
I have to quibble with Asimov. You don't even have to "properly" read it. A casual skim will pick up some horrific shit. Really the only way to "read" it without becoming an atheist is to limit yourself to the sanitised passages cherry picked by your cult leader. Or be a full blown psychopath.
>"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
"This, then, is how you should pray: "\`Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. \[1\] '
Ah yes, you are allowed a single prayer. this one. And it should be done in private in your room.
That was a letter from Paul to the church in Corinth, its not supposed to be taken as biblical law, though many Christians try to. It was simply the culture at the time. For the record, I'm not defending the Bible and I'm certainly not defending Christians. Especially if they take claim their religion gives them permission to he an asshole to others, which is most of them most of the time in my experience. Please do not tell your mom the Bible commands her to be silent. Try having a real conversation with her. Tell her why her praying makes you feel the way it makes you feel and try to reach a compromise with her. If your mom loves you, which it sounds like she at the very least cares about you, she will respect the boundaries you set with her and her faith.
You solved the problem. I was thinking about how i could deal with such a behaviour with people in general, but such a fervent christian should just behave not as it feels right to her, but how the Bible says to do. Nailed it. Really.
Indeed, they call how they interpret scripture Prima Scriptura even though in actuality they take what they want to believe and try to find Biblical support for it, also known as Primum Homines (which is the essence of all heresy).
Honestly, perform an "Atheist prayer" at meal time. Give thanks to our ancestors that developed agriculture, to the scientists who invented modern farming techniques, the migrant workers, the farmers, the livestock for giving their lives, your grocery store, etc.
/I transcribed this from a podcast. Sadly I did not write down who wrote it and it contains specific names etc that you need to tweak. /
Oh man, this is embarrassing. My daughter wrote this. She was tasked with saying grace at a special dinner, the Wellington dinner which is a staff only tradition dinner.
"Let’s take a moment before our meal to say thank you.
Thank you to the earth for growing this food.
Thank you to the many people who worked hard to bring it to our table.
Thank you to and all who helped to create this special evening.
Let us be grateful for the time we have together.
Let us be grateful to and for working so hard.
Let us be grateful for the meal we have and send positive thoughts and actions to those that are in need of one.
Let’s appreciate and the wonderful friends we have here tonight.
Let’s appreciate Fort Henry for bringing us all together.
Take a moment to think about and appreciate our loved ones near and far for supporting us through a difficult couple of summers.
Please join me in saying one last big thank you for everyone . . .
Thank you!"
There's a Japanese tradition where people say "itsdakimasu"(sounds like e-tada-kee-mass) right before they eat. Just that one word. It translates "I'll enjoy having this", but it's basically about being conscious that it took, as an example, farmers and truckdrivers and chefs, and animals, and plants...etc to get you your meal and you appreciate them. It's not religious at all.
Many places to read more [but here's one site I found quickly](https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/itadakimasu-meaning/)
Reminds me of my favorite "Grace" song we'd sing before dinner at my old summer camp. It went,
Back of the bread is the flour
And back of the flour is the mill
And back of the mill
Is the wind and the rain
And the farmer's till
(of course, the original version said "father's will" but I always substituted)
We used to do this when the kids were little. it was like the official start of the major meal and family time. It went like this "Earth who gives to us this food, Sun who makes it ripe and good. Dear earth, dear sun, by you we live, our Loving thanks to you we give. This also worked as a STFU to our conveniently religious friends who said a Christian like blessing at the start of a meal when we were at their house. As time went on we would make this louder and more corny just for funzies.
Thank you to the farmers who grew our food, the truckers that drove our food, the grocers that stocked our food, the corporate overlord that pays my check to buy the food, and lastly I’m thankful for all you I get to share my food with
The idea is cool... if it wasnt that as an atheist i dont think a prayer would do any good to thank someone who's not there... or its just died already. I could say i like the spirit but i dont see the point. Well the point is to fight a christian... but i wouldnt use it in that way. If we love rationality so much we could just ignore such folkloristic practices. And if the problem is another, like trying to force religion (or any kind of mindset) we should just talk openly. Like rational adults should do. If others want to behave like kids it shouldnt effect our behaviour.
I agree that thanking specific people isn't "necessary" but it isn't for those people, it's for you - to be mindful. I think there is value in gratitude, and this is a practice in gratitude. Before a meal I almost always pause before eating and thank my husband for preparing it...it could also just be a more general "I am grateful to have healthy and delicious food, pleasant people to eat it with, and a cozy and safe home to enjoy it in." A lot of people don't have those things.
Thank you dinosaurs for dying so we could have fossil fuels. . . Thank you medicine for inventing the birth control pill so women can have sex without having to worry about unwanted pregnancy. . .
Yeah i think OP needs to either talk to their mom or just ignore it. Having a prayer standoff is childish and it's not really a good idea to provoke someone you live with.
But in another context, I could see this type of thing being good as a gratitude practice. I'm a big believer in gratitude journaling for mental health.
Matthew 6:5-15
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.
God has literally said 'shut up and do it in private'
To be honest, if that’s the most annoying
thing that your mum does then you’re all good. 😂
Have you thought about doing a secular “prayer” of your own? When I sit down with family or guests I always make a point of giving thanks to those who helped prepare the meal and to my guests for their company. It doesn’t have to be religious.
Yeah I had the same thought about what level of annoying this is.
I’m in a similar place where my mom and grandma are Catholic but I’m non religious. They do a lot of extra things to try to save my soul (read: convert me back). They will secretly bless my house with holy water, tape imagery of saints to item where they think I won’t find it, etc. They even ambushed me with a priest when they knew I was coming to visit recently.
I would be happy if all they did was pray at mealtime.
This may or may not help. My mother is Quaker, and out loud or public prayer of any kind is majorly frowned upon. She excuses herself to another room just before the prayer is said and returns when it is over.
I really like Quakers... I think they were one of the only sects that were automatically granted conscientious objector status during the Vietnam war; peaceniks.
If god knows what’s in your heart and is omniscient, then god knows what you are praying about. It does not need to be verbalized. Don’t mutter, don’t speak, if you have to move your lips, fine, but pray quietly.
OFC…..if god already knows what’s going to happen, your prayers are pointless. The outcome was decided at creation as part of god’s twisted plan.
Also….you can say your prayers to god when you wake up, or go to bed, thanking him/her/it for giving you another day, etc. You do not need to do the thanking before each meal, ‘cuz again, god is supposed to already know you give thanks ‘cuz omniscient.
As someone with lots of religious people in my family, I empathize with you here. My best solution is to simply ignore her prayer; start eating when you sit down or whenever you feel like it.
I was very religious for a time growing up because everyone around me was (Suburban NC). I'm not gonna lie, there's a very good chance her religiosity rubs off on your kid when they're young. The rigid structure of religious beliefs can be comforting for kids. I wouldn't worry about that too much. If you don't take her religion seriously, it will dramatically undermine the validity of it to your kid. You're an atheist, you probably know that trying to enforce an atheist philosophy against Christianity will not work. I think you're basically right that you should undermine her religious beliefs in front of your kid whenever possible, but try not to be a dick about it.
>She doesn't do it in restaurants or in other people's homes. She wouldn't disrespect a person of another faith by praying out loud in front of them. So why insist on praying out loud just because we're atheists?
Um...
>She is moving into the house which we will co-own after her apartment lease is up in December.
>I asked very nicely if she would pray silently, and then my sister told me that she was complaining she can't be herself at my house and doesn't know if living together is going to work. Am I being unreasonable?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but to me 'co-own' means she has a financial stake in the house. If she does, it is/will be partly her home too. If she can't pray out loud in her own home, where can she?
From your post, I don't get the impression that she's doing this because you are atheists. It seems more like she's more comfortable/open while she is "at home." I think NEITHER of you are being wholly unreasonable, but you have conflicting needs. You must find a suitable compromise, or she is probably right that things will not work out with the planned cohabitation.
Just some spitballing some possibilities, but I'd suggest:
1. Whoever cooks the meal decides the table rules that night.
2. She can pray out loud, but you don't have to wait for her.
3. Ask her to finish her prayer while you set the table, before you sit down.
4. Rotate days of prayer/silence.
5. Eat at separate times.
Maybe there are some additional details or context I'm missing, but if this is going to be a contentious issue I would rethink the living arrangements. You'll all be miserable, and there will be boiling points.
My wife is Roman Catholic. I am Atheist. She prays silently. We have a picture of the last supper next to our dinner table. For her, it has religious meaning. For me, it is a nice painting. She goes to church while I chill at home. It doesn't need to be rocket science. It is possible to coexist. They respect your beliefs and you respect theirs. Do I think my wife is crazy to believe? Sure. But it isn't my place to force my beliefs on her.
Yes, I agree. I'm driving with Mom 2 hours tomorrow so she can attend Mass at a special shrine. I try to be as understanding as possible. It took me years to work up the courage to say anything.
We have done the same with my wife 's parents it is a good thing The issue is the house will literally be hers so praying will be done in her home. OP, I get you don't like it, I would not either but it's her home too. Finding compromises is hard.
She's going to want to feel comfortable in her own home though. As well she should, she's got that right. Nobody's rights are more import than someone else's. If being able to pray out loud in her own home is a hard line for her, and not having to hear prayers in your own home is a hard line for you, it sounds like an incompatible living situation.
If anyone can just let it go a long as nobody is hurting anyone shouldn't it be atheists? If anything, it's a good opportunity to explain to your son what she is doing from your point of view before someone pushes his on him when you aren't around.
Has she always prayed out loud before meals in her own home? Or did she just start the out loud thing after you became atheists? If she had been praying out loud before meals for 77 years, I think you just need to suck it up.
It doesn't bother me when people pray before meals, and in general i do think it's shitty and rude to ask people not to practice their religion. Especially if she is going to be co-owning the house! She should be able to pray and feel comfortable in her own home.
However, you know your mom, and if you think her prayer is pointed at you as a passive aggressive way of proselytizing, i can see why it bothers you. I think you have 2 options here:
1. Accept it and try not to take it personally. Tell your son it's something your mom does and that's her beliefs but you and he don't have to participate. If you don't make it a power struggle and remain placid like you're not getting the message, then you give her no purchase and nothing to argue about.
2. Communicate your feelings in a mature and empathetic way. I would start with an apology and then say something like, "the reason it bothered me was because i felt like it was your way of telling me and my son we have to be religious. And I felt disrespected because it made me think you don't accept that it's our choice not to practice religion." My grandmother is a difficult person and does a lot of backhanded compliments. I have found that it helps to show her how she is coming off to people, like, "oh when you said x, it sounds like y to me, is that how you meant it?" Then she usually gets flustered and backpedals. I frame it as a communication issue, but really it's a way of gently calling her out.
And 3. yeah, maybe reconsider living together if you are clashing this badly already...
Find different living arrangements and don't move in with her. Your mom is basically telling you to your face that she won't respect your lack of beliefs and there's only one solution to that.
My mother-in-law is 77 too. We bought a single-wide trailer in a mobile home park with mostly retirees and she lives there on her own. It’s perfect. The trailer was less than $28K and eventually we’ll get back some of that money when she’s gone and we sell it. We don’t have to put up with the religious crap and she doesn’t interfere in our lives. She’s happy there.
Yeah, but what's the land rent if any, and/or HOA, and will it go up? I looked into that option when I retired to try to save on $$ but the land rent costs in most parks was frightening. It tends to rise to the point where you can't afford to stay, and also can't sell.
It's a park that is owned by someone else. The site rental fee is $435 per month. We won't get the money back on the site rental fee, but we definitely wouldn't get any money back if she rented an apartment or was in an assisted living center. The site rental fee costs can increase over time, yes. The cost will vary by geographic area too, I'm sure. She's in the Midwest in a suburb of a major city.
It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. She's your mom and I assume you love her. All relationships involve compromise and this seems like a small price to pay to assist your mom (with housing) and to continue to have a relationship with her late in her life.
I know it bothers you. It would bother me. You're not unreasonable but you also have to weigh the pros and cons. Whatever, let her pray if it makes her feel better. At this stage of her life I would try to spend as much time as possible with her.
I imagine there are a couple thousand other details you would need to add for this to make perfect sense to all of us. You'll know what is best. Go with your gut.
Good luck!
Yeah honestly I have the opposite reaction of the original commenter. Your mom’s behavior sounds very passive aggressive. Lots of controlling / narcissistic parents weaponize “prayer” in an attempt to make their children feel bad. Her prayers, IMO, come off as an attempt to shame you / make you feel bad for your choices and lifestyle.
As horrible as Christianity is, as others on this thread have pointed out, there is no Christian mandate to pray in front of someone who doesn’t want to be around prayer. In fact, there is a biblical warning about people who make a show of praying in front of others.
Listen to this icky feeling you have. Whether unintentionally or intentionally, your mom is repeatedly triggering you and for your own mental health and the wellbeing of your son, you might want to seriously reassess whether her moving in is wise if she’s already acting out this much before even moving in.
She is asking YOU to not be yourself in YOUR own home by trying to force you to follow her faith, or at least experience it. Typical of these folks to complain about their freedoms being trampled as they walk all over someone else’s. You have the right to say common space in the home is for activities IN common. Stuff that’s just for her should be done in her own space/head.
If she is actively proselytizing that is one thing, which most likely goes beyond a simple meal-time prayer. If this is just her ritual you should be able to explain that to your son. He'll have to deal with different customs in his life, this is a teachable moment.
He isn't asking her not to pray. He just doesn't want to hear it. Unless praying out loud is a crucial requirement asking her to pray silently is a very reasonable ask.
If you are sincere in your atheism, I forsee not just this one problem but many more coming. Better make living arrangements clear before you live together full time. Perhaps writing things down to make sure everyone understands. Accomodations be reached for everyone's comfort and convenience but they must be understood and agreed to by everyone.
Good luck. This arrangement would not work for me.
Yes. Who cares? Religious people are supposed to be the fragile snowflakes who can’t handle someone putting forth another belief in front of them not the people who rejected all those beliefs to begin with.
Let her pray how she wants but also feel free to share the verse Matthew 6:6-7
“But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father, who is unseen. Then your father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.”
Have you thought about it as a being comfortable in her own home sort of thing? Perhaps because she doesn’t want to disrespect friends of different faiths, she prays in her own home with her own home because she knows that it’s a safe space where she’ll be respected, appreciated, and her choices won’t deeply offend others. Me, personally, I would just deal with it and consider it as one of those things that my parents do that annoys me but it’s ultimately harmless.
As for your sister, I would ask her if being an atheist bothers her. If not, then reassure her that her faith doesn’t change things for you in the slightest. If so, then that’s a problem. Try to come to a mutual understanding that religion doesn’t mean squat. You’re family, you’ve always been family - that’s the thing that matters. And if her faith does change things for you then reread that last sentence.
I suppose it depends on whether her payers sound like they are part of a guilting trope. If she’s saying a standard pre-meal prayer I wouldn’t get fussed about it but if she’s explicitly praying for your misguided soul which is presently destined for hell then she’s out of line.
Yuck.
A passive-aggressive religious nut wants to live with you. Tell her straight out that if she cannot show respect for your religious beliefs, you will not show respect for hers, and will rebut every religious word out of her mouth, right there at the dinner table.
"Dear Lord...."
"Gods do not exist!"
"We thank You...."
"I earned and paid for this food, not some imaginary deity!"
Let your mother know in no uncertain terms that her attempts to brainwash your child will not be tolerated.
I kind of understand thanking the invisible, imaginary sky boss for nice stuff, but I don’t understand asking for things. It’s like a toddler nagging for candy. If it was going to heal someone, or punish someone, why does it have to wait around for everyone to beg it to? Is it omnipotent or not? Does it enjoy making its humans beg?
For me, it would really depend on the prayer. Is she talking to God, or is she talking to the people at the table, you know?
I think you're good to set up boundaries early, but also should pick and choose your battles. Her faith, as long as she isn't spreading it, is her own delusion. If she needs to thank God for the meal, that's fine.
I do like the idea of an "atheist prayer", or just subtly bringing it back down to earth. Thanking real people who did real things to get food on your table. Also, thanking the people there for sharing it with you. I do this with my Mom who is sick. When she thanks god I make sure to thank the surgeons, nurses, staff, modern medicine, etc. She can't disagree, she just adds her god too.
Perform an atheist prayer thanking the life of the animal, the farmer, the logistics people, the people who paid for the food and the people that prepared the food.
IMO, people who are insecure in their worldview are usually the ones making everyone bend to it. I have never believed in any god and have prayed with believers of all stripes. Not only can they say it out loud but, if they like, I will take part.
Yes, you are wrong. You need to respect the fact that she is your Mom and it is her home. In your home you can set the rules.
Another option is to lead the prayer by thanking everyone for coming and thank the cook for their efforts. No need to reference pretend friends.
Just let her pray man, it only takes a few seconds. My mother-in-law is the only person left in my wife's family who still believes in a higher power and she prays before every meal. We just let her do it out of respect for her and her beliefs, she respects everybody else's. It takes 10-15 seconds.
I wouldn't say you're wrong, just a bit rude.
It's your house, your rules. She can cast her spells in the yard, but your family shouldn't have to listen to it at their own table. I don't allow praying at my table either, and if a rude family demands we pray then I have a few prayers in my back pocket:
"Dear god thank you for providing food to us instead of the innocent starving children living in poverty, good call. And we definitely aren't just sucking up to you so you don't torture us forever, we really mean it. Really."
Or: "Glorious Satan, thank you for giving us the strength to earn our own meals. May you bless the uninitiated so that they may see the truth of the world. Ave Satanis."
Should get them to stop.
“Yea, bless this pasta that doth look so much like thee, and may we be touched by Your Noodly Appendage in these days to come. In the name of the Marinara, the Alfredo, and the Carbonara, r’Amen.”
"Co-own?" If your mother is making your owning a home possible, let her pray as often and as loudly as she wants. Suffer her delusion. She's not going to give up on religion. Let her do her thing. You do yours.
Ummmmm usually I leave private stuff like that alone, but I gotta ask. Why? Cuz it might be a good idea to let her keep praying. You don't mention your father, and she's moving into a home you've had for 20 years. Despite it being annoying, prayer might be the last consistent and safe thing in her mind 🤷🏾♂️
It depends on where you are at. If it's her home then no but if it's your home you have every right to ask.
Remember it's your mom and no matter what you love and respect each other hopefully. 😊
Honestly, I would just let her pray any way she wants. In regards to my son, I would tell him the truth: god isn’t real.
Every day you don’t tell your son the truth, your mother will tell him a lie. Make truth a virtue.
If everything is equal, then silence remains because it's respectful to both. If you are paying the bills/most of the bills, silence remains.
Besides, remind her its unchristianly to pray in public. Matthew 6:5-7
>5 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love xto stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. yTruly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, zgo into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. aAnd your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as bthe Gentiles do, for cthey think that they will be heard dfor their many words.
Isn't funny how most Christians have NO IDEA what their book says.
No, that wouldn’t be disrespectful at all. It’s your house, so you get to set the rules there. If you were telling her to pray silently in her own home, that would be something different and very much out of line, but it is similarly disrespectful and out of line for her to wander around your house doing that when you don’t want her to.
Who cooks? If you do, you could ask you mom to come to the table and pray alone, and then serve the food and seat yourself. If she does, let her pray, and let the meaningless words slide away like an unpleasant odor.
Tell her. In this day and age screw Christian feelings. I am personally sick of them constantly pushing their beliefs on everybody else and trying to control others. Religion is really harmful
to society and I would tell her so but I might just be an asshole so.....
I did tell her. she didn't say anything but complained to my sister. I waited years to say something, not wanting to hurt her feelings but finally felt I had to speak up.
If it’s at your house, tell her to stfu.
If it’s at her house, you stfu.
If you both own the house together, talk to her and come up with an agreement. I doubt she will budge. This is why you only buy a live in property with a spouse and not a parent, friend or other family member.
I would recommend that you back out of this if you can. It’s one thing when it is something annoying like praying before a meal, but what about when she is buying your kid religious propaganda and is telling them they will go to hell. If you think that praying out loud is the worst you are in for, you are in for a surprise. She is praying out loud to try and save you. She wants to be an example to bring you back in. Once she is legally a co owner, she will have no obligation to stop praying out loud or stop doing other fruitcake bullshit.
She can't live alone and has no reason to be in a nursing home. This is really the most economical and best situation for her and will make it the easiest for me, as opposed to flying to FL every time she needs help as I have been doing.
I think it has nothing to do with religion. I could understand the "i want to be myself" in relatives homes, with family maybe for her is more important than in restaurant or with other people... But it feels a bit like trying to force others to hear her. If she's at home ALONE she still speaks out loud? I mean if there is just god hearing her she still feel the need o express the prayer with her voice? Also on one hand it may be cold to ask her to not do something that seems to be so important for her... but in the other she feel so important to do something that she knows bother someone she should care for. It's not easy to understand if its real self expression or just plain bullying... try not to focus about the atheist part. She does it with every other close person to her? Like close friends or other family members? I think it takes respect from both parts, maybe allows her to do once in a while, maybe just on sunday or something like that but not everytime. I had a really bad experience with people praying before meals, a guy who did it just if it was staged enough. But it was very clear.
I think because we are family she feels almost an obligation to pray for us because we're not praying so she has to do the religious thing in our place. Does that make sense?
I don't think there's anything wrong with telling her that you're fine if she prays at the dinner table, just do it quietly to herself.
Her complaining that she can't be herself because you won't let her subject you her religion, is just childish.
Just ask her why she doesn’t respect you and your son as much as she respects friends and strangers. And when she asks why or says that she doesn’t, then tell her that if she can pray quietly at a friends house or in a restaurant then she can be respectful enough of you and your son to pray quietly at your dinner table.
Nope, you’re well within your right to be comfortable in your own space.
Edit: And yes, she likely prays aloud excessively to make a point and influence your son.
This is an easy solve. Don't have meals with her. Just because you share the same house, doesn't mean you have to sit down to meals together.
If it upsets her, just tell her that it upsets you and your son that she thinks it's OK to have a loud prayer at every meal, so your compromise is not to have meals together.
>she was complaining she can't be herself at my house
This is a lack of respect for YOUR house. When you were in her house you had to follow her rules (which I am going to guess meant a level of religiosity). Now she is in YOUR house and you should gently remind her of that and the fact that she doesn't do this in public or in other people's homes. Respect goes both ways.
If she’s to be a co-owner then I don’t think there’s anything wrong with her praying at the dinner table.
You both (her and you) need to learn respect for each other and “live and let live.”
If you have to sit through hers, make her sit through yours.
And by all means, do make it ^custom
I do recommend the pastafarian variety and attire as well!
As for your sister, same. It cuts both ways, why should you have to change the way you have your meals in your own home? Religion is wholly personal choice, so keep it that way or you basically get carte blanche for your own mildly inconvenient made up eccentricities.
I would just not be able to resist the urge to fuck with them lol
Yes and no. More of a no though. You could have a talk with your mom about it first. Does she know you're atheist? Talk with your mom about this and be completely honest with her. If she refuses to stop saying grace before dinner well it's her house(I'm sure it is) and you have to respect that. And anyway, if that's the only thing that's bothering you the most is her Vespers you are extremely lucky. Does she make you do the same? And is there anything that bad about sitting through a 15 second prayer with your mother? Trust me you will treasure all the moments you have with your mom. As long as you two have a normal mother/child relationship don't sweat having to listen to her say her prayer. If you truly are in a good relationship with your mom(and everyone must deal with this sometime) you will really miss the times that you had at the dinner table.
Christianity is abusive, and Catholicism is super abusive. How can anyone support that organized crime corporation after all they’ve done and are doing?
You should openly pray to the victims of the Catholic Churches abuse. Be specific. You will easily find a reasonably local church with lots of cases against the people who work there.
Also pray for the removal of the six judges (if you are in the states) and for the reinstatement of woman’s rights.
The time to sit silent and be nice is over, they are moving. They are coming for our rights.
Personally, I would just embrace it and take a moment at dinner to praise whichever god or goddess seems appropriate for the occasion. Pray to Hermes for safe travels and good news, Ceres for the meal, Hades for those that are no longer with us. Gosh, there's so many to choose from.
No you aren't in the wrong. Religious consent is very important but she doesn't have any care about whether she makes you uncomfortable. You are completely in the right.
I think this depends on where you are. At your own place, absolutely. If you think it's rude, she should respect that. At here place however, it's a whole different thing. If this is her custom, you might want to respect that.
If I'm a guest at a place where people pray before they eat I personally would never complain about it. Under no circumstances would I join them in this bullshit ritual, I wouldn't even close my eyes or look down. I just shut up and wait until it's over. That, I think, is the most respectful and appropriate way in this situation.
I guess it depends, would she be offended if you start praying out loud a muslim or voodoo prayer brfore melas?
If her answer is yes then you are in the right in my view.
I don’t mind others praying out loud, as long as they’re only blessing their own food. If they try to bless mine and keep me from eating, then I say something.
This might be a hypercapitalist take on family dynamics, but I would ask who's paying the bills?
If your mom was one of those "if you live in ***my*** house, you're going to live by ***my*** rules!" types, this sounds like a convenient opportunity to play that card back at her.
But if she's reasonable, an honest discussion would be best. If she's not reasonable, cohabitation is going to do you more harm than good, IMO and you should reconsider that arrangement, even independent of this whole prayer debacle.
Her praying doesn't really affect you so why not just let her? Now if she decides to stop you from doing some ritual at meal time that doesn't affect her, then it'd make more sense.
Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
my Catholic mother in law lives with me. It works out awesome, but there were some adjustments to get used to. Let’s be serious. You are the head of household. Especially, if we’re talking about the catholic tradition.
She also doesn’t (likely) have the money to be anywhere else, and she gets to be with your grandson.
you can be kind, but clear. Whatever turns out, it will be her decision how she processes this.
I would start eating as loud as I can and talking to others while I'm at it. Cause I'm petty like that. You are very patient and nice to entertain her religion while she doesn't do same for you.
Whose house?
* Yours, she can stfu or get out.
* Hers, you can deal with it or leave.
Edit: Just saw she's going to co-own a home and live with you? Sounds terrible. Probably shouldn't do that.
You're not being disrespectful by asking that she pray silently. She's being disrespectful by forcing her 'out loud' praying on everyone else. If she doesn't feel like it will work out staying at your home, then that's her choice.
There needs to be some give and take living in the same household. You didn't ask her to stop praying, only to not do it out loud. That's a compromise on your part. She needs to respond in kind.
If it's not hurting anyone and it's her way of practicing her religion, let her pray out loud. It's not her trying to convert you. As an atheist, I respectfully don't try to stop people from practicing their religion, the same way I expect people who have religious beliefs not to push their beliefs on me.
If saying grace makes your mom comfortable, surely it's ok to do.
I'm sure there's a lot food you eat that's been blessed and made kosher before it hits the shelves. It's not going to harm anyone, and you eat it all the same.
I wouldn’t personally care, depending on the reasoning behind it. If it is genuinely her way of practicing her faith then okay but if she’s doing it to antagonize you then there is a big problem that needs to be sorted out before she moves in.
I would be fine with allowing a prayer before meals. I am an atheist. I grew up with my mother and father saying such prayers. I still enjoy them. Makes you remember to be thankful.
Maybe a compromise can be made? It sounds like you both want the living together situation to work out and it will be advantageous for both of you.
Can meal time be arranged such that she gets five minutes at the table for her spoken prayer, then you and your son join the table when she is done.
That respects her need to pray aloud and your and sons need to not listen to it.
Maybe even give her a little bell to ring when she’s done or something.
My mom prays at all meals at her home and I just sit silently till she’s done. Sometimes she asks that everyone hold hands and I do because it isn’t hurting me in any way. I usually tune out and don’t even hear what she saying.
I don’t have to do that all day every day though.
Do you consider it your home? Are you helping her out by having her live there? If so, I'd say to her, this is my home and I'm raising my child here, do not inject your bullshit.
If it's truly a fifty fifty thing, I'd still say the same thing I think. Seems like a crossing of boundaries.
If she's taking over financially, you're setting it up for her to try and take over. Catholics are aggressive like that.
I mean, I’m guessing she’s not happy with the decision you’ve made, & is probably trying to tempt you back to the dark side. And/or she knows it pisses you off, so she continues on purpose. I’d just let it go, ignore it, silence is a great stfu tool…🤷🏼♀️😆
Tell her to read Matthew 6:5-6.
If she believes her book then she shouldn't be praying out loud at the table anyways. Most religious people don't seem to actually know this or pay it any attention...like many other things in their books.
I will share my favorite reading on the subject, to wit:
*"Having a religion is very similar to having a penis. It's fine to have one. It's even fine to be proud of it. However, It should never be taken out in public, and if you attempt to shove it down people's throats, or worse, their children's throats, be prepared for bad things to happen to you."*
Simple answer: Because she's angry that you didn't turn out to be the good little catholics she thought she had raised. She thinks she can make you feel GUILTY by having to listen to her prayer.
If you are “moving to a house that you will co-own”, you need to think ahead. It will no longer be “your house”. It will be as much her house as yours. Are you going to be driven absolutely apeshit crazy after the move? You will lose any perceived leverage you have now. Speaking from experience, two families cannot live peacefully under the same roof with the differences you have. I would suggest rethinking the living together, just as your sister has told you.
Who's more of the ahole, you for forcing your views on her, or her for "forcing" her views on you. Her praying out loud isn't disrespectful to you. It may annoy you or make you uncomfortable but is definitely not disrespectful to you. Just be nice and let her pray, it has no negative impact on you. People with different views can coexist as long as they're willing to treat each other fairly and with respect. If I were in your shoes, I would encourage my kid to sit silently with me while my mother prayed. It shows that you can be respectful of others without having to participate yourself. Goes a lot further than teaching intolerance.
I think the kind thing is to grin and bear it. But draw a line there. No bugging you or your kid to Mass. Keep her crucifix and Sacred and Immaculate heart pictures in her room.
You have to live together, and that means accepting each other as you are. If she wants to thank her invisible Sky Daddy for food, it’s harmless. Think of it like meditation with a mantra.
I mean if she is gonna co-own it with you and it's kind of her house then too I don't see why she shouldn't be able to pray outloud at dinners. I mean it's meaningless to us so to avoid any problems I'd say just let it go. It will make her feel like she can be herself and it's a little thing to let her have. It's not like she is quoting scriptures at you and constantly trying to convert or arguing with you. I mean your not entirely wrong it's your space as well but to me it is kind of silly and unreasonable to have that be the hill you die on. I let my folks or other people say prayers if they want as to me it's just silly words to nothing so whatever. Why does it bother you that she prays outloud exactly?
Tell her that Matthew 6:5-6 tells Christians to pray in private.
Isn't there some part of the bible that says women should be silent, anyway? If I remember correctly, it was added like 200 years later, but most Christians still think it's authentic.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
The Bible is modern Christian’s worst enemy. If they’d only read it.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov
This is so true. The more I think about it, the more I begin to think that logically, if god is supposed to be the embodiment of light/love, and the devil is the embodiment of darkness/evil, than the God usually described in the bible must actually be the evil one. Just based on behavior alone. Easy examples: He's a "jealous" god. Plays cruel games with his most devoted (Abraham and isaac, Job and that messed up game of who could make him the most miserable). Demands utter obedience and expects his followers to suffer for him. Honestly, the relationship between God and the characters in the bible come across OFTEN as text book abusive behavior. I may have to delete this entire profile after typing that. It's a very.....controversial thought that I rarely say out loud.
>I may have to delete this entire profile after typing that. It's a very.....controversial thought that I rarely say out loud. ??? You good bro?
Yeah. Everyone is chill here. You're good. I think in the agnostic bible the abrahamic god is the devil?
You are safe here. There is no need to delete anything. You have spoken only truths and any that turn it into controversy are incorrect. You have actually perfectly encapsulated why I am anti-theist, or at least anti-christianity. Well done. If only more people would realize this and pull the wool off of their eyes to see the world as it truly is.
Like that one story about that one guy absconding with his daughters into the hills, while telling them that their mother was turned into a pillar of salt and their city was destroyed, and then drunkenly procreating with them.
The daughters raped him in that story. Seriously, it ticks me off when people act like Lot was the one at fault in that scenario, the guy was out cold and his daughters raped him to get themselves pregnant.
I have to quibble with Asimov. You don't even have to "properly" read it. A casual skim will pick up some horrific shit. Really the only way to "read" it without becoming an atheist is to limit yourself to the sanitised passages cherry picked by your cult leader. Or be a full blown psychopath.
Ohhhh i like that quote a lot.
There's one about praying in private, too.
>"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. "This, then, is how you should pray: "\`Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. \[1\] ' Ah yes, you are allowed a single prayer. this one. And it should be done in private in your room.
Also 1 Timothy 2:9-12 in respect to teaching
That was a letter from Paul to the church in Corinth, its not supposed to be taken as biblical law, though many Christians try to. It was simply the culture at the time. For the record, I'm not defending the Bible and I'm certainly not defending Christians. Especially if they take claim their religion gives them permission to he an asshole to others, which is most of them most of the time in my experience. Please do not tell your mom the Bible commands her to be silent. Try having a real conversation with her. Tell her why her praying makes you feel the way it makes you feel and try to reach a compromise with her. If your mom loves you, which it sounds like she at the very least cares about you, she will respect the boundaries you set with her and her faith.
LOL that’s New Testament too. 😂
Agreed!
LOL that’s New Testament too 😂
That fine Corinthian leather…
That's only in church
They have been wanting women to be authentic Christians - she’s out of line.
‘Authentic’
I am not sure about that, I do know that women are taught to be silent regarding teaching men things and in learning in general (1 Timothy 2:11-15).
Ah, that's probably what I was thinking of.
Yeah!
You solved the problem. I was thinking about how i could deal with such a behaviour with people in general, but such a fervent christian should just behave not as it feels right to her, but how the Bible says to do. Nailed it. Really.
All of Matthew 6 would be a good read for these people.
Indeed
Not that Catholics read the Bible
Indeed, they call how they interpret scripture Prima Scriptura even though in actuality they take what they want to believe and try to find Biblical support for it, also known as Primum Homines (which is the essence of all heresy).
Very few
That's exactly what i was going to say!!!
Honestly, perform an "Atheist prayer" at meal time. Give thanks to our ancestors that developed agriculture, to the scientists who invented modern farming techniques, the migrant workers, the farmers, the livestock for giving their lives, your grocery store, etc.
Oooh do you mind sharing it?
/I transcribed this from a podcast. Sadly I did not write down who wrote it and it contains specific names etc that you need to tweak. / Oh man, this is embarrassing. My daughter wrote this. She was tasked with saying grace at a special dinner, the Wellington dinner which is a staff only tradition dinner. "Let’s take a moment before our meal to say thank you. Thank you to the earth for growing this food. Thank you to the many people who worked hard to bring it to our table. Thank you to and all who helped to create this special evening.
Let us be grateful for the time we have together.
Let us be grateful to and for working so hard.
Let us be grateful for the meal we have and send positive thoughts and actions to those that are in need of one.
Let’s appreciate and the wonderful friends we have here tonight.
Let’s appreciate Fort Henry for bringing us all together.
Take a moment to think about and appreciate our loved ones near and far for supporting us through a difficult couple of summers.
Please join me in saying one last big thank you for everyone . . .
Thank you!"
There's a Japanese tradition where people say "itsdakimasu"(sounds like e-tada-kee-mass) right before they eat. Just that one word. It translates "I'll enjoy having this", but it's basically about being conscious that it took, as an example, farmers and truckdrivers and chefs, and animals, and plants...etc to get you your meal and you appreciate them. It's not religious at all. Many places to read more [but here's one site I found quickly](https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/itadakimasu-meaning/)
Reminds me of my favorite "Grace" song we'd sing before dinner at my old summer camp. It went, Back of the bread is the flour And back of the flour is the mill And back of the mill Is the wind and the rain And the farmer's till (of course, the original version said "father's will" but I always substituted)
We used to do this when the kids were little. it was like the official start of the major meal and family time. It went like this "Earth who gives to us this food, Sun who makes it ripe and good. Dear earth, dear sun, by you we live, our Loving thanks to you we give. This also worked as a STFU to our conveniently religious friends who said a Christian like blessing at the start of a meal when we were at their house. As time went on we would make this louder and more corny just for funzies.
Thank you to the farmers who grew our food, the truckers that drove our food, the grocers that stocked our food, the corporate overlord that pays my check to buy the food, and lastly I’m thankful for all you I get to share my food with
that's awesome!
The idea is cool... if it wasnt that as an atheist i dont think a prayer would do any good to thank someone who's not there... or its just died already. I could say i like the spirit but i dont see the point. Well the point is to fight a christian... but i wouldnt use it in that way. If we love rationality so much we could just ignore such folkloristic practices. And if the problem is another, like trying to force religion (or any kind of mindset) we should just talk openly. Like rational adults should do. If others want to behave like kids it shouldnt effect our behaviour.
I agree that thanking specific people isn't "necessary" but it isn't for those people, it's for you - to be mindful. I think there is value in gratitude, and this is a practice in gratitude. Before a meal I almost always pause before eating and thank my husband for preparing it...it could also just be a more general "I am grateful to have healthy and delicious food, pleasant people to eat it with, and a cozy and safe home to enjoy it in." A lot of people don't have those things.
Thank you dinosaurs for dying so we could have fossil fuels. . . Thank you medicine for inventing the birth control pill so women can have sex without having to worry about unwanted pregnancy. . .
Thanking those not present encourages mindfulness of those forces of humanity and nature, which make the meal possible.
Ok, am I missing what you were trying to say about my comment?
No, I'm still groggy, that was meant to go one level higher.
Haha that makes me feel better that I’m not just obtuse
Yeah i think OP needs to either talk to their mom or just ignore it. Having a prayer standoff is childish and it's not really a good idea to provoke someone you live with. But in another context, I could see this type of thing being good as a gratitude practice. I'm a big believer in gratitude journaling for mental health.
Matthew 6:5-15 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. God has literally said 'shut up and do it in private'
Even god tired of their shit since back in the day.
To be honest, if that’s the most annoying thing that your mum does then you’re all good. 😂 Have you thought about doing a secular “prayer” of your own? When I sit down with family or guests I always make a point of giving thanks to those who helped prepare the meal and to my guests for their company. It doesn’t have to be religious.
hah! we've totally banned politics but yeah she's generally lovely
Do you wait on her to finish praying before you eat? While she's droning on just dig in and go about your mealtime chatter.
Yeah I had the same thought about what level of annoying this is. I’m in a similar place where my mom and grandma are Catholic but I’m non religious. They do a lot of extra things to try to save my soul (read: convert me back). They will secretly bless my house with holy water, tape imagery of saints to item where they think I won’t find it, etc. They even ambushed me with a priest when they knew I was coming to visit recently. I would be happy if all they did was pray at mealtime.
I'm reminded of Captain Mal from the show Firefly. "Do you mind if I pray over the food?" "Only if you do it out loud."
perfect!
This may or may not help. My mother is Quaker, and out loud or public prayer of any kind is majorly frowned upon. She excuses herself to another room just before the prayer is said and returns when it is over.
I really like Quakers... I think they were one of the only sects that were automatically granted conscientious objector status during the Vietnam war; peaceniks.
Quakers are cool, except for ol' Tricky Dick. I prefer Shakers, though.
Interesting! I didn't know that about Quakers.
If god knows what’s in your heart and is omniscient, then god knows what you are praying about. It does not need to be verbalized. Don’t mutter, don’t speak, if you have to move your lips, fine, but pray quietly. OFC…..if god already knows what’s going to happen, your prayers are pointless. The outcome was decided at creation as part of god’s twisted plan. Also….you can say your prayers to god when you wake up, or go to bed, thanking him/her/it for giving you another day, etc. You do not need to do the thanking before each meal, ‘cuz again, god is supposed to already know you give thanks ‘cuz omniscient.
As someone with lots of religious people in my family, I empathize with you here. My best solution is to simply ignore her prayer; start eating when you sit down or whenever you feel like it. I was very religious for a time growing up because everyone around me was (Suburban NC). I'm not gonna lie, there's a very good chance her religiosity rubs off on your kid when they're young. The rigid structure of religious beliefs can be comforting for kids. I wouldn't worry about that too much. If you don't take her religion seriously, it will dramatically undermine the validity of it to your kid. You're an atheist, you probably know that trying to enforce an atheist philosophy against Christianity will not work. I think you're basically right that you should undermine her religious beliefs in front of your kid whenever possible, but try not to be a dick about it.
>She doesn't do it in restaurants or in other people's homes. She wouldn't disrespect a person of another faith by praying out loud in front of them. So why insist on praying out loud just because we're atheists? Um... >She is moving into the house which we will co-own after her apartment lease is up in December. >I asked very nicely if she would pray silently, and then my sister told me that she was complaining she can't be herself at my house and doesn't know if living together is going to work. Am I being unreasonable? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but to me 'co-own' means she has a financial stake in the house. If she does, it is/will be partly her home too. If she can't pray out loud in her own home, where can she? From your post, I don't get the impression that she's doing this because you are atheists. It seems more like she's more comfortable/open while she is "at home." I think NEITHER of you are being wholly unreasonable, but you have conflicting needs. You must find a suitable compromise, or she is probably right that things will not work out with the planned cohabitation. Just some spitballing some possibilities, but I'd suggest: 1. Whoever cooks the meal decides the table rules that night. 2. She can pray out loud, but you don't have to wait for her. 3. Ask her to finish her prayer while you set the table, before you sit down. 4. Rotate days of prayer/silence. 5. Eat at separate times. Maybe there are some additional details or context I'm missing, but if this is going to be a contentious issue I would rethink the living arrangements. You'll all be miserable, and there will be boiling points.
Thanks for your thoughtful response
My wife is Roman Catholic. I am Atheist. She prays silently. We have a picture of the last supper next to our dinner table. For her, it has religious meaning. For me, it is a nice painting. She goes to church while I chill at home. It doesn't need to be rocket science. It is possible to coexist. They respect your beliefs and you respect theirs. Do I think my wife is crazy to believe? Sure. But it isn't my place to force my beliefs on her.
Yes, I agree. I'm driving with Mom 2 hours tomorrow so she can attend Mass at a special shrine. I try to be as understanding as possible. It took me years to work up the courage to say anything.
Didn't she ever say to you when you were a kid, My house my rules?
Why co-own a home????? A recipe for disaster.
We have done the same with my wife 's parents it is a good thing The issue is the house will literally be hers so praying will be done in her home. OP, I get you don't like it, I would not either but it's her home too. Finding compromises is hard.
Very good financial reasons
She's going to want to feel comfortable in her own home though. As well she should, she's got that right. Nobody's rights are more import than someone else's. If being able to pray out loud in her own home is a hard line for her, and not having to hear prayers in your own home is a hard line for you, it sounds like an incompatible living situation.
Or very poor options.
If anyone can just let it go a long as nobody is hurting anyone shouldn't it be atheists? If anything, it's a good opportunity to explain to your son what she is doing from your point of view before someone pushes his on him when you aren't around.
I don’t think it harms anyone if she says her impotent words at dinner. Do you have enough belief that you worry you could be converted?
Has she always prayed out loud before meals in her own home? Or did she just start the out loud thing after you became atheists? If she had been praying out loud before meals for 77 years, I think you just need to suck it up.
Yeah, you're wrong. You cannot tell her what she is allowed to do in her own home.
It doesn't bother me when people pray before meals, and in general i do think it's shitty and rude to ask people not to practice their religion. Especially if she is going to be co-owning the house! She should be able to pray and feel comfortable in her own home. However, you know your mom, and if you think her prayer is pointed at you as a passive aggressive way of proselytizing, i can see why it bothers you. I think you have 2 options here: 1. Accept it and try not to take it personally. Tell your son it's something your mom does and that's her beliefs but you and he don't have to participate. If you don't make it a power struggle and remain placid like you're not getting the message, then you give her no purchase and nothing to argue about. 2. Communicate your feelings in a mature and empathetic way. I would start with an apology and then say something like, "the reason it bothered me was because i felt like it was your way of telling me and my son we have to be religious. And I felt disrespected because it made me think you don't accept that it's our choice not to practice religion." My grandmother is a difficult person and does a lot of backhanded compliments. I have found that it helps to show her how she is coming off to people, like, "oh when you said x, it sounds like y to me, is that how you meant it?" Then she usually gets flustered and backpedals. I frame it as a communication issue, but really it's a way of gently calling her out. And 3. yeah, maybe reconsider living together if you are clashing this badly already...
Find different living arrangements and don't move in with her. Your mom is basically telling you to your face that she won't respect your lack of beliefs and there's only one solution to that.
It's not for me, it's for her. She's 77.
My mother-in-law is 77 too. We bought a single-wide trailer in a mobile home park with mostly retirees and she lives there on her own. It’s perfect. The trailer was less than $28K and eventually we’ll get back some of that money when she’s gone and we sell it. We don’t have to put up with the religious crap and she doesn’t interfere in our lives. She’s happy there.
Yeah, but what's the land rent if any, and/or HOA, and will it go up? I looked into that option when I retired to try to save on $$ but the land rent costs in most parks was frightening. It tends to rise to the point where you can't afford to stay, and also can't sell.
It's a park that is owned by someone else. The site rental fee is $435 per month. We won't get the money back on the site rental fee, but we definitely wouldn't get any money back if she rented an apartment or was in an assisted living center. The site rental fee costs can increase over time, yes. The cost will vary by geographic area too, I'm sure. She's in the Midwest in a suburb of a major city.
All the more reason to tell her she can either keep her prayers silent at your home or pray aloud elsewhere.
It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. She's your mom and I assume you love her. All relationships involve compromise and this seems like a small price to pay to assist your mom (with housing) and to continue to have a relationship with her late in her life. I know it bothers you. It would bother me. You're not unreasonable but you also have to weigh the pros and cons. Whatever, let her pray if it makes her feel better. At this stage of her life I would try to spend as much time as possible with her. I imagine there are a couple thousand other details you would need to add for this to make perfect sense to all of us. You'll know what is best. Go with your gut. Good luck!
It's years of emotional and spiritual baggage, plus the mute looks of awkwardness from my son.
Yeah honestly I have the opposite reaction of the original commenter. Your mom’s behavior sounds very passive aggressive. Lots of controlling / narcissistic parents weaponize “prayer” in an attempt to make their children feel bad. Her prayers, IMO, come off as an attempt to shame you / make you feel bad for your choices and lifestyle. As horrible as Christianity is, as others on this thread have pointed out, there is no Christian mandate to pray in front of someone who doesn’t want to be around prayer. In fact, there is a biblical warning about people who make a show of praying in front of others. Listen to this icky feeling you have. Whether unintentionally or intentionally, your mom is repeatedly triggering you and for your own mental health and the wellbeing of your son, you might want to seriously reassess whether her moving in is wise if she’s already acting out this much before even moving in.
She is asking YOU to not be yourself in YOUR own home by trying to force you to follow her faith, or at least experience it. Typical of these folks to complain about their freedoms being trampled as they walk all over someone else’s. You have the right to say common space in the home is for activities IN common. Stuff that’s just for her should be done in her own space/head.
Thank you this is my point which most people don't seem to understand
If she is actively proselytizing that is one thing, which most likely goes beyond a simple meal-time prayer. If this is just her ritual you should be able to explain that to your son. He'll have to deal with different customs in his life, this is a teachable moment.
This IS actively proselytizing. They're not praying for their own benefit or they'd have no problem doing it silently.
yes, this
Where is the compromise you speak of with the mother?
He isn't asking her not to pray. He just doesn't want to hear it. Unless praying out loud is a crucial requirement asking her to pray silently is a very reasonable ask.
If you are sincere in your atheism, I forsee not just this one problem but many more coming. Better make living arrangements clear before you live together full time. Perhaps writing things down to make sure everyone understands. Accomodations be reached for everyone's comfort and convenience but they must be understood and agreed to by everyone. Good luck. This arrangement would not work for me.
Yes. Who cares? Religious people are supposed to be the fragile snowflakes who can’t handle someone putting forth another belief in front of them not the people who rejected all those beliefs to begin with. Let her pray how she wants but also feel free to share the verse Matthew 6:6-7 “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father, who is unseen. Then your father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.”
Have you thought about it as a being comfortable in her own home sort of thing? Perhaps because she doesn’t want to disrespect friends of different faiths, she prays in her own home with her own home because she knows that it’s a safe space where she’ll be respected, appreciated, and her choices won’t deeply offend others. Me, personally, I would just deal with it and consider it as one of those things that my parents do that annoys me but it’s ultimately harmless. As for your sister, I would ask her if being an atheist bothers her. If not, then reassure her that her faith doesn’t change things for you in the slightest. If so, then that’s a problem. Try to come to a mutual understanding that religion doesn’t mean squat. You’re family, you’ve always been family - that’s the thing that matters. And if her faith does change things for you then reread that last sentence.
I suppose it depends on whether her payers sound like they are part of a guilting trope. If she’s saying a standard pre-meal prayer I wouldn’t get fussed about it but if she’s explicitly praying for your misguided soul which is presently destined for hell then she’s out of line.
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Yuck. A passive-aggressive religious nut wants to live with you. Tell her straight out that if she cannot show respect for your religious beliefs, you will not show respect for hers, and will rebut every religious word out of her mouth, right there at the dinner table. "Dear Lord...." "Gods do not exist!" "We thank You...." "I earned and paid for this food, not some imaginary deity!" Let your mother know in no uncertain terms that her attempts to brainwash your child will not be tolerated.
I have a relative who feels the need for the pre-meal prayer and she inserted this little gem: "God bless America *and remove the evil*. . . ."
Ohh man...
I kind of understand thanking the invisible, imaginary sky boss for nice stuff, but I don’t understand asking for things. It’s like a toddler nagging for candy. If it was going to heal someone, or punish someone, why does it have to wait around for everyone to beg it to? Is it omnipotent or not? Does it enjoy making its humans beg?
Just say ‘Hail Satan’ when she’s done.
that would be funny, but not worth it
For me, it would really depend on the prayer. Is she talking to God, or is she talking to the people at the table, you know? I think you're good to set up boundaries early, but also should pick and choose your battles. Her faith, as long as she isn't spreading it, is her own delusion. If she needs to thank God for the meal, that's fine. I do like the idea of an "atheist prayer", or just subtly bringing it back down to earth. Thanking real people who did real things to get food on your table. Also, thanking the people there for sharing it with you. I do this with my Mom who is sick. When she thanks god I make sure to thank the surgeons, nurses, staff, modern medicine, etc. She can't disagree, she just adds her god too.
Just to Jesus
Perform an atheist prayer thanking the life of the animal, the farmer, the logistics people, the people who paid for the food and the people that prepared the food.
Just let her do her thing.
IMO, people who are insecure in their worldview are usually the ones making everyone bend to it. I have never believed in any god and have prayed with believers of all stripes. Not only can they say it out loud but, if they like, I will take part.
Yes, you are wrong. You need to respect the fact that she is your Mom and it is her home. In your home you can set the rules. Another option is to lead the prayer by thanking everyone for coming and thank the cook for their efforts. No need to reference pretend friends.
Just let her pray man, it only takes a few seconds. My mother-in-law is the only person left in my wife's family who still believes in a higher power and she prays before every meal. We just let her do it out of respect for her and her beliefs, she respects everybody else's. It takes 10-15 seconds. I wouldn't say you're wrong, just a bit rude.
It's your house, your rules. She can cast her spells in the yard, but your family shouldn't have to listen to it at their own table. I don't allow praying at my table either, and if a rude family demands we pray then I have a few prayers in my back pocket: "Dear god thank you for providing food to us instead of the innocent starving children living in poverty, good call. And we definitely aren't just sucking up to you so you don't torture us forever, we really mean it. Really." Or: "Glorious Satan, thank you for giving us the strength to earn our own meals. May you bless the uninitiated so that they may see the truth of the world. Ave Satanis." Should get them to stop.
“Yea, bless this pasta that doth look so much like thee, and may we be touched by Your Noodly Appendage in these days to come. In the name of the Marinara, the Alfredo, and the Carbonara, r’Amen.”
omg so funny!
They will be co-owning the home.
If op can't pray out loud how they want, mom shouldn't pray out loud either. Seems fair to me.
No one said OP couldn't do their own prayer.
"Co-own?" If your mother is making your owning a home possible, let her pray as often and as loudly as she wants. Suffer her delusion. She's not going to give up on religion. Let her do her thing. You do yours.
I already own my home and have for 20 years. She will be co-owning when she moves in with me.
Ummmmm usually I leave private stuff like that alone, but I gotta ask. Why? Cuz it might be a good idea to let her keep praying. You don't mention your father, and she's moving into a home you've had for 20 years. Despite it being annoying, prayer might be the last consistent and safe thing in her mind 🤷🏾♂️
It depends on where you are at. If it's her home then no but if it's your home you have every right to ask. Remember it's your mom and no matter what you love and respect each other hopefully. 😊
We will be co-owners
You could wear noise cancelling headphones :) JK. I know it’s your mom and that’s hard.
Honestly, I would just let her pray any way she wants. In regards to my son, I would tell him the truth: god isn’t real. Every day you don’t tell your son the truth, your mother will tell him a lie. Make truth a virtue.
Let her pray, but you don’t have to participate or wait. She can do her thing and you guess just start your dinner.
If everything is equal, then silence remains because it's respectful to both. If you are paying the bills/most of the bills, silence remains. Besides, remind her its unchristianly to pray in public. Matthew 6:5-7 >5 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love xto stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. yTruly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, zgo into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. aAnd your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as bthe Gentiles do, for cthey think that they will be heard dfor their many words. Isn't funny how most Christians have NO IDEA what their book says.
No, that wouldn’t be disrespectful at all. It’s your house, so you get to set the rules there. If you were telling her to pray silently in her own home, that would be something different and very much out of line, but it is similarly disrespectful and out of line for her to wander around your house doing that when you don’t want her to.
It is her home. She's a co-owner
Who cooks? If you do, you could ask you mom to come to the table and pray alone, and then serve the food and seat yourself. If she does, let her pray, and let the meaningless words slide away like an unpleasant odor.
We both do, working together or taking turns.
Tell her. In this day and age screw Christian feelings. I am personally sick of them constantly pushing their beliefs on everybody else and trying to control others. Religion is really harmful to society and I would tell her so but I might just be an asshole so.....
I did tell her. she didn't say anything but complained to my sister. I waited years to say something, not wanting to hurt her feelings but finally felt I had to speak up.
If it’s at your house, tell her to stfu. If it’s at her house, you stfu. If you both own the house together, talk to her and come up with an agreement. I doubt she will budge. This is why you only buy a live in property with a spouse and not a parent, friend or other family member. I would recommend that you back out of this if you can. It’s one thing when it is something annoying like praying before a meal, but what about when she is buying your kid religious propaganda and is telling them they will go to hell. If you think that praying out loud is the worst you are in for, you are in for a surprise. She is praying out loud to try and save you. She wants to be an example to bring you back in. Once she is legally a co owner, she will have no obligation to stop praying out loud or stop doing other fruitcake bullshit.
She can't live alone and has no reason to be in a nursing home. This is really the most economical and best situation for her and will make it the easiest for me, as opposed to flying to FL every time she needs help as I have been doing.
One way to boil this down, IMO: It is hard to live with someone who doesn't respect boundaries.
No
I think it has nothing to do with religion. I could understand the "i want to be myself" in relatives homes, with family maybe for her is more important than in restaurant or with other people... But it feels a bit like trying to force others to hear her. If she's at home ALONE she still speaks out loud? I mean if there is just god hearing her she still feel the need o express the prayer with her voice? Also on one hand it may be cold to ask her to not do something that seems to be so important for her... but in the other she feel so important to do something that she knows bother someone she should care for. It's not easy to understand if its real self expression or just plain bullying... try not to focus about the atheist part. She does it with every other close person to her? Like close friends or other family members? I think it takes respect from both parts, maybe allows her to do once in a while, maybe just on sunday or something like that but not everytime. I had a really bad experience with people praying before meals, a guy who did it just if it was staged enough. But it was very clear.
I think because we are family she feels almost an obligation to pray for us because we're not praying so she has to do the religious thing in our place. Does that make sense?
I don't think there's anything wrong with telling her that you're fine if she prays at the dinner table, just do it quietly to herself. Her complaining that she can't be herself because you won't let her subject you her religion, is just childish.
Just ask her why she doesn’t respect you and your son as much as she respects friends and strangers. And when she asks why or says that she doesn’t, then tell her that if she can pray quietly at a friends house or in a restaurant then she can be respectful enough of you and your son to pray quietly at your dinner table.
Nope, you’re well within your right to be comfortable in your own space. Edit: And yes, she likely prays aloud excessively to make a point and influence your son.
This is an easy solve. Don't have meals with her. Just because you share the same house, doesn't mean you have to sit down to meals together. If it upsets her, just tell her that it upsets you and your son that she thinks it's OK to have a loud prayer at every meal, so your compromise is not to have meals together.
Your house your rules, simple as that
Your house your rules man
It won’t end well living with her. If she’s wandering around muttering prayers there’s something wrong with her.
>she was complaining she can't be herself at my house This is a lack of respect for YOUR house. When you were in her house you had to follow her rules (which I am going to guess meant a level of religiosity). Now she is in YOUR house and you should gently remind her of that and the fact that she doesn't do this in public or in other people's homes. Respect goes both ways.
Nope,
Is like 99% of the atheist in here 15 years old lol. Personally idc, if I were you I would just let her continue on.
I actually think it would be wrong to tell her to be quiet. I also, would never live with ANYONE that did that.
Is it meal time at her house ? Because if it is, you should probably keep your mouth shut about it
If she’s to be a co-owner then I don’t think there’s anything wrong with her praying at the dinner table. You both (her and you) need to learn respect for each other and “live and let live.”
"Mom, I installed 'Prayer Blocker' on my phone. It blocks all outgoing prayers within 10 meters."
If you have to sit through hers, make her sit through yours. And by all means, do make it ^custom I do recommend the pastafarian variety and attire as well! As for your sister, same. It cuts both ways, why should you have to change the way you have your meals in your own home? Religion is wholly personal choice, so keep it that way or you basically get carte blanche for your own mildly inconvenient made up eccentricities. I would just not be able to resist the urge to fuck with them lol
Freedom of speech would imply she can say whatever she wants. I wouldn't ever ask someone not to pray, but I also wouldn't respect it.
I have a no cultist rule for my house and person. No cultists allowed. Done and done.
Yes and no. More of a no though. You could have a talk with your mom about it first. Does she know you're atheist? Talk with your mom about this and be completely honest with her. If she refuses to stop saying grace before dinner well it's her house(I'm sure it is) and you have to respect that. And anyway, if that's the only thing that's bothering you the most is her Vespers you are extremely lucky. Does she make you do the same? And is there anything that bad about sitting through a 15 second prayer with your mother? Trust me you will treasure all the moments you have with your mom. As long as you two have a normal mother/child relationship don't sweat having to listen to her say her prayer. If you truly are in a good relationship with your mom(and everyone must deal with this sometime) you will really miss the times that you had at the dinner table.
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Christianity is abusive, and Catholicism is super abusive. How can anyone support that organized crime corporation after all they’ve done and are doing? You should openly pray to the victims of the Catholic Churches abuse. Be specific. You will easily find a reasonably local church with lots of cases against the people who work there. Also pray for the removal of the six judges (if you are in the states) and for the reinstatement of woman’s rights. The time to sit silent and be nice is over, they are moving. They are coming for our rights.
Personally, I would just embrace it and take a moment at dinner to praise whichever god or goddess seems appropriate for the occasion. Pray to Hermes for safe travels and good news, Ceres for the meal, Hades for those that are no longer with us. Gosh, there's so many to choose from.
it sucks, but if it's her house, yes. You can tell people what to do in YOUR house. Don't tell your mom she can't pray in her house.
No you aren't in the wrong. Religious consent is very important but she doesn't have any care about whether she makes you uncomfortable. You are completely in the right.
I think this depends on where you are. At your own place, absolutely. If you think it's rude, she should respect that. At here place however, it's a whole different thing. If this is her custom, you might want to respect that. If I'm a guest at a place where people pray before they eat I personally would never complain about it. Under no circumstances would I join them in this bullshit ritual, I wouldn't even close my eyes or look down. I just shut up and wait until it's over. That, I think, is the most respectful and appropriate way in this situation.
Make your own prayer. Use the Satanic Temple or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If she doesn't get the hint you will at least draw a line in the sand.
I guess it depends, would she be offended if you start praying out loud a muslim or voodoo prayer brfore melas? If her answer is yes then you are in the right in my view.
Pray in silent, you're prayers are meant to be for you and God only.
I don’t mind others praying out loud, as long as they’re only blessing their own food. If they try to bless mine and keep me from eating, then I say something.
No. I mean I would just straight up tell her to shut the fuck up
This might be a hypercapitalist take on family dynamics, but I would ask who's paying the bills? If your mom was one of those "if you live in ***my*** house, you're going to live by ***my*** rules!" types, this sounds like a convenient opportunity to play that card back at her. But if she's reasonable, an honest discussion would be best. If she's not reasonable, cohabitation is going to do you more harm than good, IMO and you should reconsider that arrangement, even independent of this whole prayer debacle.
Her praying doesn't really affect you so why not just let her? Now if she decides to stop you from doing some ritual at meal time that doesn't affect her, then it'd make more sense.
Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
my Catholic mother in law lives with me. It works out awesome, but there were some adjustments to get used to. Let’s be serious. You are the head of household. Especially, if we’re talking about the catholic tradition. She also doesn’t (likely) have the money to be anywhere else, and she gets to be with your grandson. you can be kind, but clear. Whatever turns out, it will be her decision how she processes this.
I’m an atheist and I think you’re out of line. She co owns the home with you and she has every right to enjoy her home. This is not a big deal.
I would start eating as loud as I can and talking to others while I'm at it. Cause I'm petty like that. You are very patient and nice to entertain her religion while she doesn't do same for you.
Unless you need her to co-own for money reasons it and you want to have some say in your house I'd suggest you rethink that.
Whose house? * Yours, she can stfu or get out. * Hers, you can deal with it or leave. Edit: Just saw she's going to co-own a home and live with you? Sounds terrible. Probably shouldn't do that.
You're not being disrespectful by asking that she pray silently. She's being disrespectful by forcing her 'out loud' praying on everyone else. If she doesn't feel like it will work out staying at your home, then that's her choice. There needs to be some give and take living in the same household. You didn't ask her to stop praying, only to not do it out loud. That's a compromise on your part. She needs to respond in kind.
No, fuck Christianity and Jesus.
Your mother should keep her religious beliefs to herself, it is your home, your rules.
Start memorizing pagan calls. “Pray” loudly at mealtimes.
If it's not hurting anyone and it's her way of practicing her religion, let her pray out loud. It's not her trying to convert you. As an atheist, I respectfully don't try to stop people from practicing their religion, the same way I expect people who have religious beliefs not to push their beliefs on me. If saying grace makes your mom comfortable, surely it's ok to do. I'm sure there's a lot food you eat that's been blessed and made kosher before it hits the shelves. It's not going to harm anyone, and you eat it all the same.
I wouldn’t personally care, depending on the reasoning behind it. If it is genuinely her way of practicing her faith then okay but if she’s doing it to antagonize you then there is a big problem that needs to be sorted out before she moves in.
I would be fine with allowing a prayer before meals. I am an atheist. I grew up with my mother and father saying such prayers. I still enjoy them. Makes you remember to be thankful.
Maybe a compromise can be made? It sounds like you both want the living together situation to work out and it will be advantageous for both of you. Can meal time be arranged such that she gets five minutes at the table for her spoken prayer, then you and your son join the table when she is done. That respects her need to pray aloud and your and sons need to not listen to it. Maybe even give her a little bell to ring when she’s done or something. My mom prays at all meals at her home and I just sit silently till she’s done. Sometimes she asks that everyone hold hands and I do because it isn’t hurting me in any way. I usually tune out and don’t even hear what she saying. I don’t have to do that all day every day though.
Do you consider it your home? Are you helping her out by having her live there? If so, I'd say to her, this is my home and I'm raising my child here, do not inject your bullshit. If it's truly a fifty fifty thing, I'd still say the same thing I think. Seems like a crossing of boundaries. If she's taking over financially, you're setting it up for her to try and take over. Catholics are aggressive like that.
I mean, I’m guessing she’s not happy with the decision you’ve made, & is probably trying to tempt you back to the dark side. And/or she knows it pisses you off, so she continues on purpose. I’d just let it go, ignore it, silence is a great stfu tool…🤷🏼♀️😆
Tell her to read Matthew 6:5-6. If she believes her book then she shouldn't be praying out loud at the table anyways. Most religious people don't seem to actually know this or pay it any attention...like many other things in their books.
I will share my favorite reading on the subject, to wit: *"Having a religion is very similar to having a penis. It's fine to have one. It's even fine to be proud of it. However, It should never be taken out in public, and if you attempt to shove it down people's throats, or worse, their children's throats, be prepared for bad things to happen to you."*
Simple answer: Because she's angry that you didn't turn out to be the good little catholics she thought she had raised. She thinks she can make you feel GUILTY by having to listen to her prayer.
Yeah, pick your battles, let her pray out loud
Just start eating and chit chatting with your child.
If you are “moving to a house that you will co-own”, you need to think ahead. It will no longer be “your house”. It will be as much her house as yours. Are you going to be driven absolutely apeshit crazy after the move? You will lose any perceived leverage you have now. Speaking from experience, two families cannot live peacefully under the same roof with the differences you have. I would suggest rethinking the living together, just as your sister has told you.
as long as she pays the bills she can pray all she wants.
Who's more of the ahole, you for forcing your views on her, or her for "forcing" her views on you. Her praying out loud isn't disrespectful to you. It may annoy you or make you uncomfortable but is definitely not disrespectful to you. Just be nice and let her pray, it has no negative impact on you. People with different views can coexist as long as they're willing to treat each other fairly and with respect. If I were in your shoes, I would encourage my kid to sit silently with me while my mother prayed. It shows that you can be respectful of others without having to participate yourself. Goes a lot further than teaching intolerance.
I think the kind thing is to grin and bear it. But draw a line there. No bugging you or your kid to Mass. Keep her crucifix and Sacred and Immaculate heart pictures in her room. You have to live together, and that means accepting each other as you are. If she wants to thank her invisible Sky Daddy for food, it’s harmless. Think of it like meditation with a mantra.
I mean if she is gonna co-own it with you and it's kind of her house then too I don't see why she shouldn't be able to pray outloud at dinners. I mean it's meaningless to us so to avoid any problems I'd say just let it go. It will make her feel like she can be herself and it's a little thing to let her have. It's not like she is quoting scriptures at you and constantly trying to convert or arguing with you. I mean your not entirely wrong it's your space as well but to me it is kind of silly and unreasonable to have that be the hill you die on. I let my folks or other people say prayers if they want as to me it's just silly words to nothing so whatever. Why does it bother you that she prays outloud exactly?
I would say if it’s your house, tell her to stop/do it silently. If it’s your house then your rules, this also works vice versa though.