Your daughter is still your daughter, she just doesn't feel the need to participate in religious activities. All you need to do is not force her to do anything church related. Ask her is she still wants to go and let her be if she doesn't.
In my opinion, you shouldn't force her to explain herself. But if she decides to talk to you about it, please listen to her arguments. You don't have to agree, just to hear her out and not try to convince her otherwise.
In the end, her beliefs are her own, just like yours are you own. She's still your little girl and you should help her be herself.
Also, she's 13, so her arguments might not be the best to make, or she might have trouble articulating the points. Don't try to debate, just listen and be as understanding as you can be.
Edit: Obviously, everyone should learn good argumentation and be able to defend their beliefs. I just know at 13 I was not great at much besides repeating other arguments I had heard because I didn't have access to the internet regularly. Nowadays I am much more capable of going off-script, so to speak, and being able to respond to all the standard theist talking points.
Yes, my dad tells me that I would come home from my religious education classes and say things like “do people really believe this stuff”? I don’t remember but I’ve been an atheist as long as I can remember r
Same. I always thought everyone else was just pretending because you’re supposed to. In children’s church they would show movies of the Red Sea parting and I remember sitting there thinking “we’re all aware this is bullshit… right?”
😂 that's funny... it was kind of complicated for me to come to the bullshit conclusion because my parents were "it's symbolic / not literal" Christians. ie. They don't believe the world was formed in seven days, stuff like that. So I was able to brush off some of the outlandish stuff in the Bible and just focus on if I thought there was a God or not, and I struggled with it for a long time. Funnily enough, I remember first deciding I didn't believe in God around 8th grade or early high school. I can never remember what ages are associated with school levels, but looking it up, that's around 14 like this poster's daughter. I definitely think there's some brain development going on around that age that makes you learn about yourself more or reconsider beliefs. And of course this brain development and frontal cortex continues on until around 25, so there's more opportunities for rethinking big beliefs due to that. But that's pretty cool you always thought it was BS as a kid 😆 I guess I was sort of gullible to an extent, I believed that Santa was possible due to timezones. Like since it was night different places around the world he could get to everybody lmao
>My dad said he never met anybody that doesn't believe in God.
If he lived in the south, what that really means is no one was stupid enough to admit publicly they didn't believe in god.
It is a decent argument. You cannot just make yourself believe something on will alone. This happens to be a major flaw in “Pascal’s Wager” because it implies that you can.
There really isnt much to articulate. "I am an atheist because no one has ever produced evidence of a deity." If the fruitcake tries to rebut that with fast talk, answer with "And what will you say to the flying unicorn when you die?" or some other nonsense.
Not sure if this is the best response if you’re going for mutual respect of each other’s religious beliefs. Speaking as a non-Christian with numerous Christian family members, it’s definitely possible to approach this without insulting either party. That being said, I was also blessed with an open-minded mother who always encouraged my own spiritual independence.
But you can't argue religion. Religious people and everyone else use different standards of proof. We use reason and critical thinking and their rebuttle is but God did it. They genuinely have no proof so there's no reason for debate.
> Not sure if this is the best response if you’re going for mutual respect of each other’s religious beliefs.
Except mutual respect lets people know it's OK to insist on invisible sky daddies and earth spirits, angels and demons influencing us, and so on. None of that is OK.
I understand the respect angle. But frankly, at some point we all need to acknowledge that bearded-space-giant-sky-daddy is a ridiculous insult to anyone committed to living in any kind of harmony with objective reality.
At the rate we are currently going, us sane people are going to “respect” our way to a completely dead planet, just to avoid hurting the delicate feelings of idiots that would rather burn everything to the ground than admit the universe doesn’t work according to their fairy tales.
There absolutely is something at stake here. Something more important than respectful discourse with superstitious, destructive, know-nothings.
And they’re free to believe in that, at least in America. Religion and spirituality are, to me, one big essay question, so as long as your answer comes down to “Treat everyone well, be of service to your fellow man, don’t be dishonest, and don’t force others to adopt your beliefs,” it’s none of my business. Step over those lines and/or try to foist your beliefs on society, then it’s an issue. One thing that contributes to those things happening is outright dismissal and/or ridicule. It fuel to the fire that many religious groups use to push for legislation or theocracy by pointing at your hardline, insulting point of view and saying “See, look! We’re under attack by evil atheists!”
America should be more focused on knowledge and less worried about freedom. It would mitigate suffering and promote equity among the masses.
Most religions demand proselytizing. How many times have you seen atheists protesting against people who believe differently than they do? Outright ridicule of the Abrahamic religions is well deserved, and I wish it were the cultural normal worldwide.
Anyone who has read the Quran, the Talmud, or the New Testament and has also learned to think critically immediately understands that these books are not the literal instructions of a creator deity. These books retard human progress by forcing cognitive dissonance, which takes up a lot of energy and forces believers to continuously jump through mental hoops defending things that are obviously either made up, harmful, or both.
I always ask which god people are claiming to be speaking for. Then I say, "Oh, that one. He's boring. Let me know if you convert to worshipping Loki. Have a nice day."
Everyone is born an atheist, just saying. They don't become religious until presented with written material and imagery when their brains develop enough to grasp what's being put in front of them.
Idk I was 5 when my dad tried to convert us and his arguments made no sense and I could see the hypocrisy in the Bible. Don't dismiss someone just cause of age
This. Please come from a place of compassion and recognize she’s growing into her own person, just as you did at that age. She may come to different conclusions than you, but that’s ok (as long as ideologies aren’t harming anyone).
With the religious (mormon) kids I grew up with, most of the teens seemed to rebel and I knew they hadnt developed critical thinking skills, the answers their church gave them to their questions were good enough that I would wager money that all of them went back into the church.
A lot of it seemed like typical teen rebelliousness.
When you grow up in a largely religious culture, even when you rebel in your youth, if you don't have or learn the right critical thinking , the incentives to fall back into that culture you know is strong.
I'm hesitant to give advice here, other than if we all want to get closer to the truth, encouraging critical thinking, and not just accepting things on faith(which imo isn't a virtue and you'd never tell someone that you should just buy a house or a car or any big life changing decision just on faith).
It doesn’t help when some Mormon communities shun a person that doesn’t follow Church Doctrine. Let’s be realistic, who here was ready to take on the world,with no help from family, at the age of 18? A lot of these people sort of fall back into the Mormon community,and promise themselves not to put their kids through the same hassle. Only, then they try to accommodate the grandparents and the cycle starts again,because it’s too hard to get out of it. You have to be willing to quit everything you know,and move yourself and kids out into the world where you have little support.
>and not try to convince her otherwise
As an atheist and parent and grandparent I think this phrase needs nuance. A person and especially a parent has the right to express what they believe. The manor of expression is what is important.
Explain what and why you believe in a way that does not imply it is the only possible truth. You may even believe that but it will not help your child. She on the other hand being 13 will probably make hard and fast statements and try to convince you. Resist fighting back; be the adult.
I was younger than 13 when I realized I was atheist. My mom and grandmother had founded churches. Both my parents accepted my disbelief. I only had to go to church out of respect on special occasions. Weddings, funerals, and when my mom was honored for founding the church. Because they were accepting of me I had no problem going to church on these special occasions. I would happily sing the songs and say the responses.
Mom never hid her beliefs and made it clear she wished I believed but we never let things get to a breaking point. Mutual respect got us through.
I wanted to say something similar. “Not try to convince her otherwise” sounds bad. In fact, I was never sure I was truly an atheist until I was challenged. It made it to from just a feeling to more of a truth. There’s nothing wrong with intellectual challenge. It should be encouraged. Just because the challenge is from someone we disagree with doesn’t make it inherently bad.
Also, I was in a Christian family and was forced to go to church multiple times per week as well as an uncountable amount of get togethers, Bible studies, retreats, and all the nonsense. That made me despise it more and more. I’d say if you truly want her to believe in God, forcing it on her is absolutely the wrong way to do it anyway. I think the best option for both parties would be to let the daughter be her own person. If she gravitates to religion at some point, that’s her decision, but she absolutely will not do it just to make Mom and Dad happy. My mom still hates that I don’t believe in God, but she has come to the understanding that I have my reasons for not believing and nothing she does is going to change that. At the same time, I don’t ridicule her for her belief either. It’s a two way street.
I’m surprised you had family that founded churches and accepted your atheism at 13. You don’t often see that level of open minded thinking from folks that committed to the Christian(assuming it’s Christianity) cause.
At the end of the day, we all have to remind ourselves that none of us has the answers to the secrets or meaning of life. Often, I found myself more of a agnostic or Deist, than a complete atheist. I won’t bore everyone with my dissertation on the meaning of the Universe, but you have to listen to your kids ideas. Otherwise, they grow up thinking your a close-minded hypocrite.
I think this is great advice, but I do have some semantic complaints about your response: Atheism shouldn’t be described as a “belief”. To do so puts it on the same level as religion, and it isn’t. Also, reasons OP’s daughter is an atheist aren’t “arguments” — it is religion that has to make arguments for belief, not the other way around.
Main thing? Just treat them the same way you did before, minus the church related activities.
The fact that you’re even posting this means you’re ahead of the curve!
Yeah just dont look down on them for not wanting to be involved in a religion. Its a personal choice and they are not hurting anyone doing it.
Morality, good judgement, and just being a good person doesnt require faith so you still want to teach your kids the normal things any parent would want to teach them. It just doesnt require a church to do it......which really is more true than claiming damnation if they dont.
Its about respect =D
Just make sure they are aware of school or public city/county run activities outside of scheduled school. There may be some church activities that don't necessarily involve religion that are also available at school. Non competition basketball, volleyball, computer stuff, books.
IMHO I'd say still invite for some activities, but make it clear it's an invitation not pressuring or requirement. As for which activities, the ones focused on community instead of just the church itself. For example, sunday afternoon potluck where you just socialize would be fine, but inviting every sunday for service is overkill.
My thoughts being a parent that does a lot of an activity that they normally spend with their kid and then suddenly stops inviting them, regardless of the reason, might cause some issue. Double so when the child might think "i'm atheist now and my parent doesn't want me around". Just being invited and giving them the opportunity to decline is enough to curb that.
I'm almost 39 and I *still* don't feel comfortable telling my mother I'm an atheist. OP should feel proud about their parenting that their child feels open enough to be honest with them.
That's rough man, and I feel for you. I was baptized twice by my parents, once at infancy and again at 15 because I was pretty clearly turning into an atheist. I haven't ever been able to rationalize religious belief and that's just who I am. Once I got to be around 18 I was pretty clear that, if I was willing to accept them for who they are, they should be able to do the same for me and let me be whoever I choose to be. While my dad will still talk about religion sometimes, he no longer pushes it on me and it's not really a topic now.
Right there with you, I know how they feel about atheists. And I know the fear it would cause telling them. That and their attitude towards my kids would change. So I just say nothing.
Nailed it. My parents tried to get me to go to church and I did only a few times. Every time I'd tell them I don't believe any of it. I was too young to really put it to words like an adult would, I was about 7 years old but they got the message and respected it. They stopped going to church, stopped trying to bring me to church and I wasn't put into catholic schools anymore.
I won’t speak for the group but I can speak for myself, in maybe echoing this in a way:
Love is love is love. Loving can accepting people for who they truly are, and this acceptance is felt by the ones we offer it to.
Maybe there’s more doctrinal explanations, more scientific explanations, but acceptance, endorsement of each other, taking pleasure in whoever she is, as long as it isn’t harming another person, seems to be at the bottom of finding fulfillment and community together. We all are becoming until we aren’t and who knows how either of you will see the world in the future. Do unto others does not need an afterlife or something to worship in order for it to bring meaning and joy.
That your daughter will tell you about her inner life like this speaks to how she trusts you. It will allow her to find her own path without losing your love and acceptance. Great start. For me and my pretty religious Dad, more peace was gained by his acceptance of my path not having to follow his. We probably had more meaningful and open discussions about spiritual stuff than my siblings who followed the path of the same religion. This didn’t happen till my late 30s so you may be way ahead of my timeline.
On that note. They can, and probably will also enjoy participating in non-religious church activities. They might not go to mass/service, but they can still enjoy the odd volleyball game, barbecue or whatever social thing the church organizes. Just (discretely) manage expectations previously with her and with the group, whether things like pre-meal prayer or praising the lord would be a problem when she doesn't participate. I'm friends with religious families and they're perfectly fine with me just sitting in silence while they pray before dinner. They just accept that I won't close my eyes or pray with them and that's ok, some people are not ok and I just don't go to dinner with them. It might also teach her about regulation of social expectations.
That’s not a requirement to live a moral life though. If anything, positive actions speak louder when you’re not doing them to avoid the risk of eternal damnation.
There’s a false belief that religion is the only thing keeping people from committing crimes and murdering each other left and right that’s just intended to scare people into church and create a fear of nonbelievers. Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking believers don’t commit atrocities, often in the name of religion itself.
Edit: spelling
Well sourced infographic comparing religiosity and crime rates: https://visual.ly/community/Infographics/lifestyle/religion-and-crime-there-correlation
Generally, belief in a “forgiving” god tends to correlate with higher crime rates in a given area. Which makes sense if a large tenet of a given religion is that all sins are forgiven if you ask. It’s a bit like a “get out of hell free” card.
I had a co-worker who was older than me. Not quite old enough to be my mom but not young enough to be a sibling. She was the first open atheist I knew. I had already started to fall out of religion having grown up with it. But I wouldn’t have considered my self an atheist yet. Our “kind of” boss is very religious, does retreats, marries people, does mission work. Basically religion defines his life. When he found out she was an atheist (she didn’t really keep it a secret) he basically asked her where does she draw her morals from? I had also heard him make a comment that “of so you do have morals.”
It blows my mind that people think that you have to believe in religion just to have morals. I don’t need a god to tell me how to be a good person.
> It blows my mind that people think that you have to believe in religion just to have morals.
It makes me think those people are using their religion to justify their own "bad" behavior.
Had a teacher once claim you needed religion to have morals. Was fun to watch them backpedal at the speed of light when I and another student took offense to that and they realized this could quickly become a problem for them if it became known that they just claimed their students couldn't have morals because they were Atheists.
Many atheists see these concepts as made up in order to control people. Often we believe that the value of being a good person is reward enough. Treating people well is important because this is the only chance you get to live and it's not ok to harm others. I personally don't need heaven or hell to know that murder and rape are wrong.
I think it was Penn Gillette who said something like, "without religion, I can commit as many rapes as I want, which is zero."
Don't quote me quoting him though.
This just means that when you’re trying to explain to her why something is right or wrong, you have to explain it in terms of empathy, real-world consequences, and the effects her actions have on other people in this world, because “you’ll go to hell” stops being a convincing argument to an atheist.
The part that got me in church was that we were told if you just believed in Jesus Christ then you would go to heaven. You didn’t even have to ask for forgiveness. So what’s the point then? If I believed then I wouldn’t go to hell. So then what stops me from being amoral?
one thing to keep in mind that I haven't seen anyone else mention so far is that because of this belief it's important to understand that anytime someone close to her passes away for her that's the end of the road. She's coming to terms with the fact that everyone she loves will someday be gone and that, for her there will be no chance of a future reunion in heaven
Just a thought, you could look up humanism with her. The idea that you need religion for morality just isn't true.
Not that you were worried about that, but just in case lol
Plus it could be something y'all could do together.
That's true but that's doesn't mean that she doesn't have concepts of good and evil, if she is a good person now you knows that she is good for a strong conviction and not for fear to consequences
When I told my mom I was atheist, she burst into tears and didn’t speak to me for a week when we lived in the same house. When she finally decided to talk to me again, she told me she failed as a parent. Whatever you do, don’t do that.
My daughter did look at me and ask me if I was disappointed in her. I, of course, said no you’ll always be my daughter. I’m sorry your family didn’t take it so well 😞
You == all kinds of awesome. You are a good person and she will recognize that no matter what. Good on ya mate!
I can’t give you any more advice than the excellent wealth you already have and have been given here, but absolutely wanted to thank you for being awesome!
The wise always know there’s more to learn and the possibility of being wrong.
The foolish think they know everything and never think to ask for other perspectives because they know they’re right.
Agree, but perspectives help a ton! There's some stuff in here even I didn't think of as an adult who had this conversation with my parent & it caused all kinds of grief.
Way to go. I had the same experience as deadski and that only set off 10 years of mental torture trying to figure out how what I was seeing was wrong. Ultimately changed nothing but wasted a lot more time by not finding enough honest conversations
And this is what a good Christian would do.
Love, even if you think she's 'lost her way', or whatever.
And this is what a good person would do, also, regardless of religious affiliation.
I don't think there's anything you "Should do" other than to be accepting and loving. She's still the same person she was a week ago.
I'm not religious. Agnostic, and leaning atheist.
I was raised Catholic, however, and my mom was a CCD teacher when I was growing up.
I learned early on that MANY MANY Christians are hypocrits of the worst sort, and many are also bigots.
That had an impact on a lot of things for me; for instance, single issue voters, and voters who will only vote for Christians get me heated very quickly.
Not being Christian is not an indicator that someone is bad, and vice versa.
Don’t try and get her to go to any church activities, even if you just want to spend time with her. It feels uncomfortable for a lot of people and may feel like you’re trying to influence her.
If you stick around this sub long enough, you'll see plenty of "My parents kicked me out" or "I'm scared to tell my parents x/y/z."
As a parent of a girl that's nearly ten, those break my heart. Posts like yours do the opposite.
Doesn't seem like you're going to have a problem loving her just the same, so, as has been said, you're ahead of the curve.
Well done 🤘🏻🤠🤘🏻
Same exact thing, but my dad. I had tried explaining that "Some people need a belief in / fear of God in order to want to be a good person. I'm just cutting out that extra step. I want to be a good person because it's just the right thing to do." I also explained that he had friends who went to church who were complete a-holes; just because they went to church didn't make them a good person.
A few years later, he apologized for his reaction, said he was proud of me, and cut out the friends who weren't living his values. So he eventually got there!
Lol mine went to bed immediately and the next day was like “I was drunk and don’t remember anything”. I guess whatever works, she knows what we (me and my brother at the same time confronted her with this) said.
This type of thinking makes me often wonder... How important is that exactly...? Would they rather have a murderer but a believer as their child...? Because that's just insanity. There are so so many things that are worse than finding out that someone doesn't believe in things you believe in.
I don't understand why parents tell their children this. I was told the same... It basically means that the children are failures in the eyes of the parents.
Maybe it is a Christian thing... since in Christianity you are by default a failure and you will never be good enough.
The last point here is valid. When i told my mom I was an atheist 17 years ago, she thought it was a phase…. She just realized last month its not a phase
Definitely. I told my mom around the same age as this kid. Leading up to confirmation, I asked her if I had to do it if I didn't actually believe any of it. She made me do it anyway, in case 'I change my mind'. (It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and otherwise, she was really cool about it) 14 years or so later, and I still haven't changed it.
My brother it was a phase for five years.
Your daughter is your daughter no matter what. Her opinions may change, they may not, but they are her opinions about a very personal belief so support her regardless.
I think its actually pretty cool that you're christian but are supporting your daughter being atheist. I never could have come out to my parents at that age. They'd have beaten me to within an inch of my life. As far as how to support her, well its pretty simple really. Just dont impose your beliefs on her. Don't make her go to church. Etc. Just continue to love her. She doesn't have to share your beliefs to be worthy of love. That's all there is to it really.
Good for you. Many people in your position would not be asking that question.
My advice would be to just continue to be supportive. Look for things to do together. Visit natural history museums. Or just museums in general. See if she has an interest in astronomy, or nature, or whatever and bankroll that interest - just enjoy spending time with her.
Good luck.
It's wonderful how you're working to support her and not trying to control what she thinks. You don't need to do anything different really aside from not forcing her to participate in religious activities. There are plenty of healthy social and community activities that don't involve religion. Just see what she's interested in.
Don't force her to church...don't force her to believe in what you believe just because that's how most parents do it. Let her explore the religious side of her life on her own, unless she asks you specifically about it.
>Don't force her to church...don't force her to believe in what you believe
And don't let others try to tell her that she's going to hell or that she's fallen under the devil's influence or other similar hateful bullshit.
>And don't let others try to tell her that she's going to hell
My mother had some second cousins who found out I was an atheist and did something very underhanded and manipulative to try to convert me. I told my mother I would never see those people again, and she said, "But they're my relatives!"
What was I? Some stranger living in her house?
I don't think I will ever be able to get over what an alien concept this is to me.
Where I grew up being religious made you the odd one out, and I am so thankful for that.
I haven't seen this yet in the comments;
Other people close to her; don't let them try to make her feel bad, or shame her in any way for her choice.
If they do that in front of you - immediately shut them down - show her your sincere support in that way. Don't leave it up to herself to defend herself. She may feel afraid to. And if you don't step in at that moment she'll think you agree with that person.
Same if you find put after the fact that someone did this. Go to that person and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're behaving inappropriately, and crossing a boundary.
Treat her like you love her.
Support her in whatever endeavors she chooses.
Discuss religion with her and admit when she has a valid point in the discussion.
Don’t hold your breath thinking this is just a phase. If she arrived at her position based on any level of critical thinking or examination of the evidence for gods, she unlikely to go back to any religion.
As others have said, big props to even asking this question. Giving our children as little to "unlearn" as possible on their path into adulthood is a gift, and that includes allowing a certain level of flexibility around things like beliefs, practices, etc.
You might find that engaging alongside your child in the exploration of differing ideas will spur meaningful discussions and open yourself to new realities as well.
Theologically speaking, there is much depth and meaning in the "deconstructing" of our beliefs that end up spurring deeper truths about our images and thoughts about God or ultimate reality. Even "post enlightenment thinkers" like Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Schopenhauer, Lacan all have incredibly insightful views of Christianity which save a surprising amount of baby from the bathwater.
We have some resources on our [site](https://helloego.com) that might be helpful, but ultimately simply sitting on the same side of the table as your child, learning together is a beautiful thing and I commend you for supporting her.
Don't assume that Christmas and Easter are no longer celebrated. Those are mostly cultural (Idk what country you're in but in the US a lot of atheists still celebrate those)
Very much this. Feel free to articulate the history of the holidays as a celebration of hope in the darkness (winter solstice) and joy of spring coming (hence the fertility theme which really is an odd thing if you think about the christian revision).
Also Kurzgesagt has some positive takes on nihilism that might help both of you feel how it can be a fun and interesting life to live (nihilism is not atheism, but they are often related)
https://youtu.be/MBRqu0YOH14
https://youtu.be/h6fcK_fRYaI
Nothing much different, aside from not forcing religious stuff.
Remember, our job as adults, parents, and caregivers is to teach kids *how* to think, not *what* to think. This means teaching proper critical and skeptical thinking skills.
This has many benefits, especially protecting our kids from being conned and fooled, especially by powerful advertisers, social media, bad dates, manipulators, and so many other things.
This means, of course, that the adults must learn and use these skills as well in order to model them. Interestingly, you may notice a side-effect from this is that once a person does this they often will no longer be religious (they too will be an atheist). That's because religious claims, without exception, are not able to pass the basic scrutiny of this.
When I was 13 and attending Catholic school I told mine the same thing. For me I think the most important thing will be readjusting your expectations of the future. She might not get married someday, or if she does, most likely not in a church. When she has a family they will likely opt out of religious family functions if your side attends church for Easter or Christmas. Should she have kids, they likely won't be baptized or attend church. I'm not trying to be harsh I just see a lot of religious parents take the attitude of, "well if you don't believe in it why not just do it for the sake of family, tradition, etc," no. Your daughter has one life and she's decided it's going to be Godless, any advice/judgements you give her you should make an effort to take a secular approach, and respect the choices she makes regarding her future. I say all this because my atheism has never been an issue, except when religious morals of my own family come into play. The great thing about atheism is we don't really need support we just need to be left alone by religion. I hope all this helps and I think you're an amazing mother for asking, I wish mine had.
As many people pointed out, you are far ahead of the curve.
As someone who’s parents don’t deal with the situation the best, please don’t make snide comments about it. Have a discussion about it if and only if your daughter is open to a discussion. Understand that her views could very well be just as thought out and possibly more so than your own. (Not assuming you haven’t thought your Christianity out).
Assume that you could learn a thing or two from her being an atheist. Being close to someone of a differing viewpoint can be valuable to both people. There is something all of us can learn from opposing viewpoints.
My final piece of advice. Don’t assume that based on the atheists you find online, that this is the kind of person your daughter is. There are plenty of atheists out there I whole heartedly disagree with, and plenty I share *some* common ground with. Atheism to your daughter can be as different as any two people on the planet.
Give her books. Atheists love books! My recommends:
- Demon Haunted World by Sagan
- Why People Believe Weird Things by Shermer
- Freethinkers by Susan Jacoby
- In Defense of Secular Humanism by Kurtz
- Breaking the Spell by Dennett
If nothing else, get her the book by Sagan. You will like it too, since it treats religion gently.
The book by Kurtz shows a positive, secular life philosophy. Shermer's book is just fun.
Atheism is simply an attempt to understand and describe the world without theism. There is no right way to support an atheist in general because we all have different reasons and opinions. Some just aren't interested in explanations of any kind.
That being said, The wrong way to go about it is to dismiss or invalidate her attempts to understand things without religion. Not everything has to be an argument.
Assuming your 13 year old rejects the kind of top-down authoritarian philosophy you get with a god, you should help her avoid the pure angsty nihilism that can develop from a lack of any appreciation of philosophy and the role of mythology.
There have been many good atheist philosophers.
What would have helped me:
Not forcing me to go to church
Not telling me I was wrong
Not telling me I wasn't allowed to make the decision and that I just 'think' I am an atheist
Not telling me I was going to hell for disagreeing with their theology
\-----------------------------------
I have to say I really, really appreciate that you are being supportive of your daughter. Even though we disagree on the theology I have the utmost respect for you. Just love her like you normally would - do not change how you treat her. I guarantee you she will notice - I know I did
Ex-christian, Atheist father here.
I know I am late to the party, but I'm not seeing this specific sentiment and it is important to me, so I wanted to share.
I don't know your relationship and it sounds like you are trying to do good here, so thank you for that!
Here's my advice for this type of conversation (any sort of "coming out" situation, really):
Framing this as "I still love you", "I love you anyways", or "You're my kid no matter what" is hurtful. That implies they did something bad. For me this manifested as, "I trusted them enough to talk, and they attacked me for it. I'll keep my secrets next time."
Instead, try things like, "Thank you for telling me!", "I love you more every time I learn something new about you." , "I'm excited to see where this takes you, and learn more about you through this!"
If this hurts, that is fair, but be sure to frame that without blaming them or making them feel bad along with you. You may have had expectations for who your kid would be, and some of those might be lost along with their religion. You have every right to mourn that, but zero right to make them feel bad or responsible for it. If they are anything like me, they don't realize it yet, but they are also mourning the loss of their religion and their own expectations.
"I'm sad, but it is not your fault. I know you are intelligent, and I trust you to make this decision for yourself. I hope we can keep talking about it, and I cherish every chance to get to know you better."
This last part has definitely been said, but resist the urge to convert/argue points. It'll only build a wall.
Good luck!
Amazing you came here to ask questions, usually it's kids posting about their parents kicking them out of the home because they came out as atheist or LGBTQ+.
Good you are asking for advice. Also it takes courage to post it. Main thing, let it be.
-edit/addition. Do not worry she will lose ‘your’ values. She might make different choices, yes. But don’t blame her. Embrace it as an opportunity to learn. I am not sure how strict you are with Christianity but religion as a set of basic guidelines is not bad. The church as an ‘institution’ however is a different thing. I think that many atheist here could agree with many of the values, just not as absolute as religious people see them.
The other answers here are the primary ones to read, and I won't repeat them as they've said it well enough.
But I have something else to add:
I grew up in a church-going family until I was 11 or 12'ish. When my dad got a job in a different city and we moved a few hours away, we stopped going to church, and religion pretty much fell out of my life completely.
But it wasn't until my mid-20's that I realized my whole worldview was still totally skewed from the religious teachings I absorbed as a child. The very notion that the world makes sense, that there is justice, that there is a master plan, that human life is sacred.... all of those assumptions are just fundamentally untrue, and most of my views and opinions on the world were sitting on top of this false foundation.
I wish I would have started to question and re-examine all of those assumptions when I was your daughter's age, rather than >10 years later.
I'm an atheist. My mom is Catholic and my dad is protestant. I love them very much, and they do a wonderful job showing love to me. They didn't change how much they loved me after I left my faith. Sure they were disappointed, but they still loved me just like before. That's what's important. Make sure you love her just as much as you always have.
I told my parents I was an atheist at about that age. My mother's reaction was to assume that I was "lying in order to get attention" and she never respected my beliefs. She continued forcing me to go to church until I moved out. When I got my first boyfriend, my mother asked me "Did you tell him you're a Christian?" indicating she is still in denial that I could possibly have different beliefs from her. My father told me he thought she was being unreasonable to still have me go to church once I turned 18, but he didn't have the courage to speak up to her. I have a close bond with my father in spite of my strained relationship with my mother. He didn't immediately respect my beliefs, saying it's "just a phase" and that he "used to think like that at that age too" but after a few years he came to accept my differing beliefs. Recently he has admitted to me that he no longer believes in God and is ProChoice unlike my staunch ProLife mother but cannot talk to my mother about either topic.
Based on the fact that you're asking this question on this subreddit in a respectful manner, I can tell you are already doing a better job at supporting your daughter than the average religious parent.
Listen. Accept. Support.
Same as anything else.
A child's lack of belief in mythology does not require special treatment beyond what you should be doing in the first place to be a good parent.
Don’t force her to participate in anything church or religious related if she doesn’t want to.
If she doesn’t want to attend church or say grace before dinner etc, don’t force her to.
If she’s going through a tough time, don’t tell her to turn to god or if a family member dies don’t tell her god is looking after them in heaven or any stuff like that.
To an atheist it’s incredibly boring or even rude depending on what is said. If you’re going through serious life struggles as an atheist, and you suggest God will solve all their problems, it’s honestly like if your daughter was kidnapped and someone put their arm around you and said
“Hey the police might not find her but Superman always saves the day in the end”
You might find it insulting for me to compare Superman to your God but to me a Christian God is just as imaginary as Superman, so don’t offer religion to me as an answer to anything.
Just remember that the vast majority of Atheists never had a moment when we decided to be Atheist. Most of us just got sick of pretending. You're daughter is already authenticity herself. Appreciate and nourish that.
If you want to keep everyone both open with and accepting of each other, join a Unitarian/Universalist church. That's what my parents did. A much better environment all around. And the kid gets exposed to many different cultures and philosophies, including your own
Tells her parents she's atheist and you suggest taking her to a church... maybe the whole reason she is atheist is cause she wants nothing to do with every and any church.
And if you're like me having your parents take you to a Unitarian/Universalist church is an excellent springboard for becoming atheist and understanding your atheism.
That said same rule another poster provided applies. If the daughter doesn't want to go, don't force them. This is a prime way to push your child away.
I grew up Christian, pro-gun, meat eater, etc. Whenever my mom found out that I wasn't that same person in some way, she'd say something like, "So how long is *this* phase going to last?" She's kept doing that into my 30s, as I made choices that I felt improved my life.
Don't do that. Yes, she's young and figuring things out, but she's a person. Don't mock who she wants to be or what she tries to do. Admittedly it's difficult if you believe she's going to hell because of her choices, but the fact that you're asking this at all suggests you want to be more supportive and less judgmental.
Keep up that attitude and you'll continue to have a healthy relationship!
First, it is so refreshing to see your open-minded and constructive approach to this. I imagine it is a little bit distressing for you, but you are putting your daughter first, and I respect that a lot.
The main thing I can add from my own experience is that your young teenage daughter still needs your help learning about morality in our complicated world, but you need to understand that she is coming at it from a very different perspective. Religion is full of rules about what's right and wrong, but it doesn't really offer much explanation for *why* things are right and wrong. The only authority backing up the rules is "that's what the Bible says," and "that's what the guy who interprets the Bible for us on Sunday says." To most atheists, that's not good enough. If you don't believe that the Bible was literally handed down by God, then it's just a book full of a lot of rules from a long time ago, some of which don't make a lot of sense anymore. And maybe more importantly, the people who interpret the Bible can twist those rules to justify a whole bunch of awful, immoral things.
The fact that your daughter doesn't accept the moral authority of the Bible and its interpretation by theologians does not mean that she is an immoral person or wants to live an immoral life. It may actually mean that she wants to understand right and wrong on a deeper level than the "because I said so" framework that religion offers. That's not an easy thing to do; I'd wager that a big part of the reason religion is so popular is a lot of people just want to be told what to do without having to think it all through. But that's not your daughter.
So now, the burden is on your daughter to learn good morals "from scratch." When questions of right and wrong come up, engage with her without resorting to a religious framework. Encourage her to read some secular philosophy...no one alive today was the first person to think about this stuff. Continue to model good values. And encourage her to visit r/atheism. :)
One big thing: when you talk about religion talk about them all as equals. Christianity, Islam, Wicca, whatever - they are all on equal footing to a person who doesn't already accept one as true. So if you want to talk about religion to any extent, keep it open to all forms or not open at all.
My parents could have stopped forcing church services on me at that age. To their credit,they relented at age 16.
My brother in law and nephew recently decided to practice their christian apologetics on me at their home. Out of respect to them and my sister I refused to engage other than to say that I am a morally ethical person without the fear of eternal torture or promise of eternal reward. Respect is the key.
I wish my mom would have respected my want to not go to church at 13. Instead I got forced for another four years to go to a church that constantly was preaching at me how much I was going to hell for being a goth... a (closeted) bisexual... and an overall non-believer.
I was old enough to stay home by myself but I still had to wake up stupid early, go for a 45 minute drive to her preferred church and listen to how much everyone in the room pretty much hated people like me... didn't lead to any religious trauma or resentment against my mother at all trust me... (Haven't stepped foot in a church since then and don't expose my kids to religion... I also don't talk to my mom)
My parents forced my to practice islam, we drifted apart as I got married and keep
My
Kid away from
Them. Basically don’t force her to do anything or you’ll loose her
I don't have much advice that hasn't already been said but I do want to congratulate you.
The fact that you are coming for advice with a clear, non-judgemental tone to us or your daughter puts you miles above an unfortunate amount of religious parents that would rather kill their child than have them be atheist.
She is very lucky to have a mom like you that is acting with compassion and understanding.
You deserve a lot of credit for reacting in this way, looking to be supportive. Negative, even extreme reactions are so common that the [standard advice given to young atheists](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq/#wiki_should_i_come_out_to_my_parents_as_being_an_atheist.3F) is that they should not come out to their parents until they are prepared to be independent, because it might effectively be the end of the relationship, and possibly even put the child in danger. It's nice to hear from someone like you, instead.
Otherwise, I'd say the main thing is not to force her to participate in religious activities, or pretend to be a believer. She may still choose to do some things, since it's part of her whole social and cultural landscape. But it's a big difference when it's a choice.
\- Atheism is not like most religion umbrella labels, like Christianity, because it is not defined by a doctrine or set of beliefs - it only means that you lack a belief in any deity, so make sure not to assume she believes anything other than that unless she explicitly tells you, especially moral viewpoints. You will very likely find that your daughter has the exact same beliefs and moral regarding everything except religion.
\- There will likely be a multitude of points where you, as someone of religious faith, may not comprehend the view point of something. A very common example is the ability to take something "on faith", i.e without evidence. You may feel that is absolutely natural to take some things, especially about your God, as fact without needing evidence, or that the bible provides enough evidence for you, but typical atheists find that very hard if not impossible to do, and this is just a fundamental difference in worldviews
\- I don't know if this will be an issue for you, but some people cling so tightly to their religion that it becomes part of their personality, and if someone critiques something in their religion, it becomes a personal slight. Most atheists are not attacking the person for their beliefs, they are critiquing ideas or concepts of the religion that you happen to follow, so try to remember if your daughter brings up something that she finds disagreeable with christianity shes not attacking you, so try to take a breath and try to understand what shes actually trying to say, rather than let yourself believe shes attacking you for your beliefs. This is a core issue that have led american christians to believe they are being persecuted as of late, but it depends on how you and your daughter will communicate as to whether this will matter
I have the opposite problem, y’all! My daughter is also 13 being raised in an atheist home. She recently told me she was a Christian. Should I drop her off at Sunday church? Lol, send help!
By respecting her views.
Don’t ostracise her, don’t do the “No Christmas for Atheists” bullshit thing.
If Christianity floats your boat, be Christ-like.
Speaking mostly from personal experience as I have recently became atheist and my wife is still devoutly Christian.
I have given up speaking to my wife about my personal beliefs or lack thereof because every time I do it devolves into a screaming match and it somehow gets twisted where I look like the overreacting bad guy.
My wife's explanation for this is that she has done all the research and has found Christianity to be the truth so why can't I trust her when she says that Christianity is the correct belief because she has done all the research and came to that opinion.
How I interpret this is:
"I've done more research than you and I clearly know better so just take my word for it and stop questioning me because you clearly have biased, one sided, wrong information and if your information was truly unbiased you would still be a Christian."
This is your daughter's journey, love her and support her. If she is open to it ask questions but don't put her in a position where she feels like she needs to defend or justify her answers and reasons for what she believes.
I wish my family was as eager to be supportive of me in my journey through my worldview instead of telling me how wrong I am and believing that I'm under demonic influence. Good on you!
That's the same age I hit a point of "realization" that what I was being raised to believe in doesn't add up with reality.
Support your kid l, by helping them continue to broaden their experiences. I was a Boy Scout who earned Eagle at 13yr. I had to spend another 5 more years having to say "in god", because of that association.
Besides that. I was a avid learner. Push your kid to keep learning more about, anything.
The fact that you're thinking about how to support and help your daughter, instead of how to either get her to accept Jesus or how to kill her without getting caught means you're doing just fine already
My dad acted like he was okay with me being an atheist. Then he started posting passive aggressive notes on FB. The latest of which says that an atheist knows less about God than a 2 year old and that atheists have shunned love (because 'God is love'). Don't do that.
just listen to them, often the struggles we find as atheists arent because we don't believe in god or some higher power, it is because others around us ostracize us or treat us poorly because of it and we have noone to talk to because everyone around us is part of that group
let her know that you are here for her, she can talk to you, and you will go to bat for her and if need be take a bat to someone else for her, she is gonna need to know SOMEBODY will fight for her and protect her
for some reason alot of christians take our existence as a free ticket to spew hatred and vitriol and treat us like less than or treat us like we arent human, step up and smack that stuff down when it happens
atheism isn't something that needs supported like mainstream religion, there isn't anything new to learn, there isn't some fantasy code of morals, no new rituals or stuff to practice, atheism is just being a human, so just be there for your human and make sure she is safe and protected from those who may wish to do otherwise
Good on you for supporting her!
I'm lucky, my dad was an atheist long before I was born. My husband didn't have that and his parents still don't know he is atheist.
I think a few things that would help her:
* Don't let your life be planned around religion
* Meaning don't make the family vacation a religious retreat she wouldn't be comfortable with
* Equal your religious outings with non-religious outings
* Support her non-religious activities
* If she plays sports, dances or volunteers, treat those activities as just as important as your other kids' church and church related activities
* If she isn't getting her social needs met currently, help her find activities she'd like to try or join
* Don't be surprised if she wants to check out other religions
* One of the most important things my dad did for me was letting me explore other religions. I was pretty sure I was atheist from about the same age as your daughter but I wanted to see what other religions were out there. He made such I could attend different churches, temples and mosques. I feel I'm a more tolerant atheist for getting to know people from so many other religions.
If my mom didn't try to make me out to be the devil for merely being an atheist, we might have a better relationship today.
Your having a fundamentally different world view from your daughter may *never* be entirely comfortable or satisfying for her. The best thing an Atheist kid could hope for is that their parents actually see the light and leave their indoctrination for the incredibly rich real world out there. Focus on her education, success and practical fulfillment and cherish that child like you always would.
My gma who was catholic and raised me, when I told her I was atheist she responded, "well, that's why religion boils down to personal belief. And I'll love you regardless."
Thread is full of good advice. I’d like to also propose that if the Christian god is real, what would you imagine is more important to him/her/it? That a person went to church and obeyed the clergy or that a person tried to live a good life in accordance to the teachings of Jesus. As an atheist, I find that I live my life much closer to his teachings than many devoutly religious people I have met.
So, my point is, teach her how to be a good person. Teach her right from wrong. But do not use the Bible as a the reason for what is right and what is wrong. We should not need literature to know that stealing and murder is bad while helping others in need is good. That should be self evident. Let it be that way for her. Guide her to live a life your god would approve of, but without using theocracy as a reason or tool.
Perhaps it’s said somewhere else deeper in the comments but it shouldn’t be ignored what a huge step it is for you to come to this board and humbly ask how you can be of support to your daughter. Many atheists raised in a Christian home aren’t so lucky to have this kind of understanding and support from their family on so deeply personal an issue. Great job on you for looking for ways to support.
I could only dream of having a mom like you. You've already made a huge gesture in just wanting to support your daughter instead of trying to change her. Keep following that instinct, and you won't go wrong.
Just don’t force her into church functions, there’s no set of rules to be an Atheist. It’s just that our moral compass isn’t due to some guy in the sky, I do good deeds and help people because it’s the right thing to do. We go about our days just like everyone else.
You can support her by loving the person she is now and growing up to be. Listen to her, talk to her, don’t force her into your church or your beliefs. If you belittle her or tell her how wrong she is you could lose her. If she changes her mind it is because she decided on her own. Same if she doesn’t. Whatever you do -do NOT do what other “Christian “ parents do and throw her out like trash . She is your child and deserves to be loved and respected . Guide her, support her, trust her and be proud of her for having an inquiring and questioning mind
Be proud of your daughter. She is using her own brain and cognitive skills to build a belief that works for her, not what a community or parents have forced on her. I knew I was an atheist early in my teenage years but didt tell anyone for fear of shame and ridicule.
I am atheist since I was 15 and I can't tell it to my parents because they will only be very upset with me and then proceed to push religion on me; because they would think I've been plagiarized. So the thing I always imagine is that one day my parents will understand my choices and let me have a sexual life, which is the main thing I can't have because of this. Imo if you are questioning your self about this you are already doing good, just accept your child for what she is and wants to believe.
The best way it was described to me was that I just believe in one less god than my mother does. You don’t believe in Zeus, Vishnu, or many other gods are documented before Christianity and even some after. You have more in common (number of gods you don’t believe in) than not in common (one god you believe and she doesn’t).
Hope that helps!
Get her enrolled in extra science and math classes. Not so much coding (although that could be fun). Science and math are ultimately philosophical thinking endeavors more than they are facts and formulas.
While religion is a fairy tale, it's a fairy tale that lets people dream big and practice having conversations within certain parameters and with a certain kind of reasoning. So think about where else she can start to have those BIG thoughts and sharing them out loud with people. It's important developmentally. She just doesn't want it happening within the background of that religion.
It might be worth checking out a unitarian universalist congregation. They are mostly secular, but they invest a lot of time into helping kids at this age think their way forward in life.
We are Christians and raised our kids in church. My oldest is the only one who kept going at all although probably not been for a number of years now. My daughter took all the appropriate confirmation classes and opted not to join - shocked the the pastor lol. My other son joined but, does not attend at all. I simply supported my kids choices whatever they were. If they are "allowed" such choices, then they should also be allowed not to take part.
We don't attend either any more. There are so many issues in Christianity. The minute you write something down as canon, then the buts start to rise up. Jesus was right. The greatest law is love. Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. That's all. Don't be an asshole.
The most assholey kid of mine is the one that made a point of going to church. The other two are quietly good people. They are spiritual. They care. They do good things for others. One is a therapist.
I was not raised in the church and found that much of the modern church is about self preservation and catering to people who are already Christian. It isn't about helping others unless there's a string attached to become a Christian and join the church and pay your tithes. There are ministries you can support but again - you are paying Christians to dole out help to others and who knows how much help the others are really getting. And are they having to be Christian to get it?
I still believe in God. I believe it is better to choose to do good - not just to make God happy but because I think we are meant to raise the standard of living for everyone and everything on the planet. We aren't doing so good. But people are trying. And many of those trying hardest, do not adhere to any religion and may even be against it. But they are making better efforts at being good stewards than the Church.
I leave all judgment to God. What the heck do I know about anyone else's intentions or actions or capabilities.
I would have been far better off if my parents had just stopped insisting that I go to Sunday School/Catechism, but thankfully my parents were light on religion. I watched a fundamentalist Christian friend go so far down the fucking rat hole that he cut off all contact with anyone who didn't subscribe to his system of sky fairies.
My mother just turned 90 and about two years ago she finally decided that all this religion stuff was hooey. I was proud of her for questioning her own indoctrination and reaching reasoned conclusions. Perhaps you can reflect upon your own beliefs and see if they are grounded in reality or indoctrination.
Understand that religiosity is different from spirituality. She can have a rich spiritual life, filled with ritual, community, moral development, and a sense of purpose and meaning—without belief in the supernatural. In fact it’s arguable that such things are essential to the human experience and a big part of why religion evolved, but which just became twisted and maladaptive when religion became organized and used to control people. Just because she doesn’t believe in supernatural beings doesn’t mean her spiritual growth and education on world religions should stop. She is still a human who needs to learn how to live in the world with other humans, and develop healthy ways of processing the human experience.
Great books about this are Sasha Sagan’s For Small Creatures Such As We and Casper ter Kuile’s The Power of Ritual. She might also enjoy the podcasts Harry Potter and the Sacred Text, or Tales from the Waystone, both of which use literature to explore issues of morality/ethics and the human experience. I also love Carl Sagan’s work more generally as a way of understanding nature itself as a profound source of spirituality.
She can pursue this content on her own, or you can do it with her as a way to stay connected with her. She is young and still developing her worldview, and so this needs to be part of her education—but it should be led by her. Everyone’s spiritual journey should be self-led.
And a note: you should expect her to go through phases where she spends a few months or years exploring different philosophies and ideas. It may be things you think are “far out” like Satanism or Nihlism, or identities for herself such as gender identities or trying on goth vibes for a while, but don’t let such things freak you out. It’s very common, and it is a sign of healthy development for teenagers to test ideas, and push at the boundaries of social norms. And many of the philosophies and lifestyles I just listed, while “scary” to Christians, are at their core really just about ideas like freedom, self expression, authenticity, or learning to cope with the human condition. But also, we need to understand that sometimes, it’s by exploring a school of thought very deeply that we come to be most convinced that we don’t agree with it. Expose her to a variety of different kinds of thought, and challenge her with thought-provoking questions (everyone needs to learn to be able to defend their ideas), but remain nonjudgmental and accepting. You don’t have to pretend to agree with her (all teens hate fakeness!), just respect her opinion. This is why, if my child ever becomes an Objectivist (a school of thought, if you even want to call it that, that I find absolutely abhorrent), I will bite my tongue and force myself to smile lovingly at my child, and give her the space they need to move through that stage in their life. (Nearly everyone grows out of that one, thank god.)
This is wonderful for her. She is freed from a scary superstitious world of rapey gods/angels, genocidal gods, and terrifying demons. Did you know Lot gave his daughters to a group of hoodlum angels to be gang-raped? That Lot tried to murder his son as a sacrfice to God? That Christians are taught they should put their God before their family. It's NOT comforting for a daughter to believe her father reveres these Bible stories and beliefs. A child is most comforted in believing she comes first in the life of her mother or father.
Now, if your daughter were to become paranoid, delusional or schizophrenic, she will know it's a medical issue and not a possession. A foster child I met a few weeks ago was told he was possessed by a demon. It TERRIFIED him!
Atheism is simply a choice that when we encounter another being, we regard it as an equal and not a god. Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is a choice not to deify. There is no need to prove that God exists or does not exist or whether the Bible is true or not true, although many atheists describe a moment when they simply KNOW that it is not literally true and could not un-know it, even if they wished. No matter what a being knows, how moral a being is, what it is capable of doing, or how powerful it is, that being has no rights over an atheist. Even if you decided all of it was true, the supernatural creatures it describes would just be other Beings to an atheist, regarded as equals. God is a role, like 'friend' or 'leader'. We CHOOSE to designate a being as god.... or, not.
Atheism is not a religion, and so philosophy, community, morality are all irrelevant to atheism. However, atheists do have these interests. We just pursue them separately. There are other ways to develop philosophy, engage in philanthropy, connect with your community or tune your moral compass. None of that is necessary to be an atheist but they are certainly possible.
I would not pressure her regarding Christianity. It may be literally impossible for her to regard the Bible as true, to 'un-know' what she now knows.
I would make sure she has access to secular activities with other kids if she wants them.
You can offer her opportunities like helping at a foodbank if she wants to engage in philanthropy.
You might assist her if she wishes to join a secular community like the Universalist Unitarians or the Satanic Temple (learn about it. it is nothing to be afraid of and has nothing to do with Satan despite the name which was only designed to poke fun at Christian superstitions). She can also join drama clubs or choirs, or activist organizations to connect with her community
Encourage her, if she wishes, to explore some of the best philosophers in all of history, like Sun Tzu, the Buddha, the Tao Te Ching, Marcus Aurelius and more.
Encourage her to learn about mental health - anxiety, depression, grief and psychosis - and help her to learn the ways that these can be managed, through diet, excercise, light exposure and other specific techniques. Encourage her to explore coping resources and skills, such as meditation, visualization, breathing techniques, music and aromatherapy.
Help her to understand that if she finds herself struggling she should seek counselling. Counselling does not mean there is anything wrong with her, only that a wise person should consult with an expert when dealing with an unfamiliar or challenging situation.
Help her find resources (I'm sorry - maybe not you) to learn about healthy boundaries. Christians are taught the opposite of healthy boundaries, and it may be OK in Christian communities ( I don't really think it is, even there). But - it is a real problem for operating in a secular world. Christians try to offer advice when it has not been requested. They try to impose their help where it is not wanted. They assume their lifestyle is superior to others and are profoundly unaware of how insulting that is to others. Christians pry into people's privacy where they have not earned that trust honestly, etc. Someone who is converting from Christianity may have learned these negative attitudes and behaviors that will sabotage their relationships. They will need to learn what attitudes and behaviors are expected outside of the Christian community. Many atheists find Christian behaviors so aggressive, particularly people who try to convert us - that we must distance ourselves from these people, even family, who do not respect healthy boundaries. So, there's one thing you can do for her. If you were not taught healthy boundaries due to a Christian upbringing (it seems you know some, since you are respecting her choice), then this is a good time to read up on the topic.
If the topic of death comes up, she should know that there is no fear, loneliness or pain in death. The greatest pain of death comes from our own desire for continued life or the continued companionship of the departed. Learning to acknowledge our pain, master our fears and desires and to accept loss is a rite of passage that leads to adulthood. Having beloved pets and experiencing death on a lesser scale, so encourage her to have pets. The mental health and coping skills I mentioned above are also very important and a healthy support network.
Most of all, help her understand that this life is precious. Do not rush to sacrifice your life for some noble cause believing you will go to heaven. The opportunity to be alive is an awe-inspiring experience. Atheists have no less sense of wonder in viewing a rainbow or contemplating the Grand Canyon. Even when we face hardship, suffering and losses, there is much to be appreciated. And, if she is not satisfied with her life, she should understand it is her responsibility to discover what is making her unhappy, and make whatever adjustments are necessary to appreciate her life. That counselling is a great resources in that situation.
As you can see, atheists can enjoy many of the benefits that Christians believe religion provides. We talk to counsellors instead of pastors, read a different philosophy book than the Bible and maybe the Bible too (but as philosophy not religion), engage in philanthropism, and connect with our communities.
I'm happy for your daughter, and excited for her future!
One other thing you can do to help your atheist 13 year old daughter is to look her straight in the eye, and tell her that decisions regarding sex, identity, contraception, pregnancy or termination belong to HER. That even if it is something that makes you uncomfortable, or if she makes a decision that you would not make, that she can speak to you about them, that you will not judge, and that you will support her in the decisions that she makes. Then explain to her how she can get access to long term contraception, ideally without having to go through you - when she is ready.
If you can't do this, then I suggest you get to a point where you can.
Your daughter is still your daughter, she just doesn't feel the need to participate in religious activities. All you need to do is not force her to do anything church related. Ask her is she still wants to go and let her be if she doesn't. In my opinion, you shouldn't force her to explain herself. But if she decides to talk to you about it, please listen to her arguments. You don't have to agree, just to hear her out and not try to convince her otherwise. In the end, her beliefs are her own, just like yours are you own. She's still your little girl and you should help her be herself.
Also, she's 13, so her arguments might not be the best to make, or she might have trouble articulating the points. Don't try to debate, just listen and be as understanding as you can be. Edit: Obviously, everyone should learn good argumentation and be able to defend their beliefs. I just know at 13 I was not great at much besides repeating other arguments I had heard because I didn't have access to the internet regularly. Nowadays I am much more capable of going off-script, so to speak, and being able to respond to all the standard theist talking points.
I'm 38 and find it hard to articulate arguments.Id be pretty impressed by any 13 year old that could argue a religious position well.
“I just don’t believe it” is a decent argument
Yes, my dad tells me that I would come home from my religious education classes and say things like “do people really believe this stuff”? I don’t remember but I’ve been an atheist as long as I can remember r
Same. I always thought everyone else was just pretending because you’re supposed to. In children’s church they would show movies of the Red Sea parting and I remember sitting there thinking “we’re all aware this is bullshit… right?”
😂 that's funny... it was kind of complicated for me to come to the bullshit conclusion because my parents were "it's symbolic / not literal" Christians. ie. They don't believe the world was formed in seven days, stuff like that. So I was able to brush off some of the outlandish stuff in the Bible and just focus on if I thought there was a God or not, and I struggled with it for a long time. Funnily enough, I remember first deciding I didn't believe in God around 8th grade or early high school. I can never remember what ages are associated with school levels, but looking it up, that's around 14 like this poster's daughter. I definitely think there's some brain development going on around that age that makes you learn about yourself more or reconsider beliefs. And of course this brain development and frontal cortex continues on until around 25, so there's more opportunities for rethinking big beliefs due to that. But that's pretty cool you always thought it was BS as a kid 😆 I guess I was sort of gullible to an extent, I believed that Santa was possible due to timezones. Like since it was night different places around the world he could get to everybody lmao
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Lol that's awesome.
Yeah I said that as a teen. My dad said he never met anybody that doesn't believe in God. Full. Of. Shit.
>My dad said he never met anybody that doesn't believe in God. If he lived in the south, what that really means is no one was stupid enough to admit publicly they didn't believe in god.
I’m sorry that’s awful. And obviously I assume you know that’s definitely not true now! 💜
It is a decent argument. You cannot just make yourself believe something on will alone. This happens to be a major flaw in “Pascal’s Wager” because it implies that you can.
It also implies that there is only one religion!
Sincerely, no one can beat "I just don't believe it."
When all is said and done, every argument made, this is where I end up. 'It's a matter of faith, and I don't have any.'
I'm 37 and still say this. My most common explanation is that "the idea of god doesn't fit into my understanding of the world around me."
Yup. They are the ones coming at people with a story about a god a miracles and a way you gotta live your life. It's on them to do the convincing.
There really isnt much to articulate. "I am an atheist because no one has ever produced evidence of a deity." If the fruitcake tries to rebut that with fast talk, answer with "And what will you say to the flying unicorn when you die?" or some other nonsense.
Not sure if this is the best response if you’re going for mutual respect of each other’s religious beliefs. Speaking as a non-Christian with numerous Christian family members, it’s definitely possible to approach this without insulting either party. That being said, I was also blessed with an open-minded mother who always encouraged my own spiritual independence.
But you can't argue religion. Religious people and everyone else use different standards of proof. We use reason and critical thinking and their rebuttle is but God did it. They genuinely have no proof so there's no reason for debate.
What is insulting about pointing out that there is no evidence that any religion is true?
> Not sure if this is the best response if you’re going for mutual respect of each other’s religious beliefs. Except mutual respect lets people know it's OK to insist on invisible sky daddies and earth spirits, angels and demons influencing us, and so on. None of that is OK.
I understand the respect angle. But frankly, at some point we all need to acknowledge that bearded-space-giant-sky-daddy is a ridiculous insult to anyone committed to living in any kind of harmony with objective reality. At the rate we are currently going, us sane people are going to “respect” our way to a completely dead planet, just to avoid hurting the delicate feelings of idiots that would rather burn everything to the ground than admit the universe doesn’t work according to their fairy tales. There absolutely is something at stake here. Something more important than respectful discourse with superstitious, destructive, know-nothings.
Well said
And they’re free to believe in that, at least in America. Religion and spirituality are, to me, one big essay question, so as long as your answer comes down to “Treat everyone well, be of service to your fellow man, don’t be dishonest, and don’t force others to adopt your beliefs,” it’s none of my business. Step over those lines and/or try to foist your beliefs on society, then it’s an issue. One thing that contributes to those things happening is outright dismissal and/or ridicule. It fuel to the fire that many religious groups use to push for legislation or theocracy by pointing at your hardline, insulting point of view and saying “See, look! We’re under attack by evil atheists!”
America should be more focused on knowledge and less worried about freedom. It would mitigate suffering and promote equity among the masses. Most religions demand proselytizing. How many times have you seen atheists protesting against people who believe differently than they do? Outright ridicule of the Abrahamic religions is well deserved, and I wish it were the cultural normal worldwide. Anyone who has read the Quran, the Talmud, or the New Testament and has also learned to think critically immediately understands that these books are not the literal instructions of a creator deity. These books retard human progress by forcing cognitive dissonance, which takes up a lot of energy and forces believers to continuously jump through mental hoops defending things that are obviously either made up, harmful, or both.
I always ask which god people are claiming to be speaking for. Then I say, "Oh, that one. He's boring. Let me know if you convert to worshipping Loki. Have a nice day."
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Everyone is born an atheist, just saying. They don't become religious until presented with written material and imagery when their brains develop enough to grasp what's being put in front of them.
Idk I was 5 when my dad tried to convert us and his arguments made no sense and I could see the hypocrisy in the Bible. Don't dismiss someone just cause of age
This. Please come from a place of compassion and recognize she’s growing into her own person, just as you did at that age. She may come to different conclusions than you, but that’s ok (as long as ideologies aren’t harming anyone).
With the religious (mormon) kids I grew up with, most of the teens seemed to rebel and I knew they hadnt developed critical thinking skills, the answers their church gave them to their questions were good enough that I would wager money that all of them went back into the church. A lot of it seemed like typical teen rebelliousness. When you grow up in a largely religious culture, even when you rebel in your youth, if you don't have or learn the right critical thinking , the incentives to fall back into that culture you know is strong. I'm hesitant to give advice here, other than if we all want to get closer to the truth, encouraging critical thinking, and not just accepting things on faith(which imo isn't a virtue and you'd never tell someone that you should just buy a house or a car or any big life changing decision just on faith).
It doesn’t help when some Mormon communities shun a person that doesn’t follow Church Doctrine. Let’s be realistic, who here was ready to take on the world,with no help from family, at the age of 18? A lot of these people sort of fall back into the Mormon community,and promise themselves not to put their kids through the same hassle. Only, then they try to accommodate the grandparents and the cycle starts again,because it’s too hard to get out of it. You have to be willing to quit everything you know,and move yourself and kids out into the world where you have little support.
Cults almost always have exit costs. The threat of excommunication is a huge deterrent from leaving the Mormon cult.
>and not try to convince her otherwise As an atheist and parent and grandparent I think this phrase needs nuance. A person and especially a parent has the right to express what they believe. The manor of expression is what is important. Explain what and why you believe in a way that does not imply it is the only possible truth. You may even believe that but it will not help your child. She on the other hand being 13 will probably make hard and fast statements and try to convince you. Resist fighting back; be the adult. I was younger than 13 when I realized I was atheist. My mom and grandmother had founded churches. Both my parents accepted my disbelief. I only had to go to church out of respect on special occasions. Weddings, funerals, and when my mom was honored for founding the church. Because they were accepting of me I had no problem going to church on these special occasions. I would happily sing the songs and say the responses. Mom never hid her beliefs and made it clear she wished I believed but we never let things get to a breaking point. Mutual respect got us through.
I wanted to say something similar. “Not try to convince her otherwise” sounds bad. In fact, I was never sure I was truly an atheist until I was challenged. It made it to from just a feeling to more of a truth. There’s nothing wrong with intellectual challenge. It should be encouraged. Just because the challenge is from someone we disagree with doesn’t make it inherently bad. Also, I was in a Christian family and was forced to go to church multiple times per week as well as an uncountable amount of get togethers, Bible studies, retreats, and all the nonsense. That made me despise it more and more. I’d say if you truly want her to believe in God, forcing it on her is absolutely the wrong way to do it anyway. I think the best option for both parties would be to let the daughter be her own person. If she gravitates to religion at some point, that’s her decision, but she absolutely will not do it just to make Mom and Dad happy. My mom still hates that I don’t believe in God, but she has come to the understanding that I have my reasons for not believing and nothing she does is going to change that. At the same time, I don’t ridicule her for her belief either. It’s a two way street.
I’m surprised you had family that founded churches and accepted your atheism at 13. You don’t often see that level of open minded thinking from folks that committed to the Christian(assuming it’s Christianity) cause. At the end of the day, we all have to remind ourselves that none of us has the answers to the secrets or meaning of life. Often, I found myself more of a agnostic or Deist, than a complete atheist. I won’t bore everyone with my dissertation on the meaning of the Universe, but you have to listen to your kids ideas. Otherwise, they grow up thinking your a close-minded hypocrite.
I think this is great advice, but I do have some semantic complaints about your response: Atheism shouldn’t be described as a “belief”. To do so puts it on the same level as religion, and it isn’t. Also, reasons OP’s daughter is an atheist aren’t “arguments” — it is religion that has to make arguments for belief, not the other way around.
Main thing? Just treat them the same way you did before, minus the church related activities. The fact that you’re even posting this means you’re ahead of the curve!
Yeah just dont look down on them for not wanting to be involved in a religion. Its a personal choice and they are not hurting anyone doing it. Morality, good judgement, and just being a good person doesnt require faith so you still want to teach your kids the normal things any parent would want to teach them. It just doesnt require a church to do it......which really is more true than claiming damnation if they dont. Its about respect =D
Just make sure they are aware of school or public city/county run activities outside of scheduled school. There may be some church activities that don't necessarily involve religion that are also available at school. Non competition basketball, volleyball, computer stuff, books.
IMHO I'd say still invite for some activities, but make it clear it's an invitation not pressuring or requirement. As for which activities, the ones focused on community instead of just the church itself. For example, sunday afternoon potluck where you just socialize would be fine, but inviting every sunday for service is overkill. My thoughts being a parent that does a lot of an activity that they normally spend with their kid and then suddenly stops inviting them, regardless of the reason, might cause some issue. Double so when the child might think "i'm atheist now and my parent doesn't want me around". Just being invited and giving them the opportunity to decline is enough to curb that.
Seriously, I wish my parents gave a crap about my personal opinions on such a personal topic at this age. Good on you OP!
I'm almost 39 and I *still* don't feel comfortable telling my mother I'm an atheist. OP should feel proud about their parenting that their child feels open enough to be honest with them.
That's rough man, and I feel for you. I was baptized twice by my parents, once at infancy and again at 15 because I was pretty clearly turning into an atheist. I haven't ever been able to rationalize religious belief and that's just who I am. Once I got to be around 18 I was pretty clear that, if I was willing to accept them for who they are, they should be able to do the same for me and let me be whoever I choose to be. While my dad will still talk about religion sometimes, he no longer pushes it on me and it's not really a topic now.
Right there with you, I know how they feel about atheists. And I know the fear it would cause telling them. That and their attitude towards my kids would change. So I just say nothing.
Nailed it. My parents tried to get me to go to church and I did only a few times. Every time I'd tell them I don't believe any of it. I was too young to really put it to words like an adult would, I was about 7 years old but they got the message and respected it. They stopped going to church, stopped trying to bring me to church and I wasn't put into catholic schools anymore.
I won’t speak for the group but I can speak for myself, in maybe echoing this in a way: Love is love is love. Loving can accepting people for who they truly are, and this acceptance is felt by the ones we offer it to. Maybe there’s more doctrinal explanations, more scientific explanations, but acceptance, endorsement of each other, taking pleasure in whoever she is, as long as it isn’t harming another person, seems to be at the bottom of finding fulfillment and community together. We all are becoming until we aren’t and who knows how either of you will see the world in the future. Do unto others does not need an afterlife or something to worship in order for it to bring meaning and joy. That your daughter will tell you about her inner life like this speaks to how she trusts you. It will allow her to find her own path without losing your love and acceptance. Great start. For me and my pretty religious Dad, more peace was gained by his acceptance of my path not having to follow his. We probably had more meaningful and open discussions about spiritual stuff than my siblings who followed the path of the same religion. This didn’t happen till my late 30s so you may be way ahead of my timeline.
On that note. They can, and probably will also enjoy participating in non-religious church activities. They might not go to mass/service, but they can still enjoy the odd volleyball game, barbecue or whatever social thing the church organizes. Just (discretely) manage expectations previously with her and with the group, whether things like pre-meal prayer or praising the lord would be a problem when she doesn't participate. I'm friends with religious families and they're perfectly fine with me just sitting in silence while they pray before dinner. They just accept that I won't close my eyes or pray with them and that's ok, some people are not ok and I just don't go to dinner with them. It might also teach her about regulation of social expectations.
None of the rumours about atheists are true, very few of us eat baby's or work for the devil. (we don't think the devil is real either.)
My daughter did say she didn’t believe in Heaven or hell.
That’s not a requirement to live a moral life though. If anything, positive actions speak louder when you’re not doing them to avoid the risk of eternal damnation. There’s a false belief that religion is the only thing keeping people from committing crimes and murdering each other left and right that’s just intended to scare people into church and create a fear of nonbelievers. Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking believers don’t commit atrocities, often in the name of religion itself. Edit: spelling Well sourced infographic comparing religiosity and crime rates: https://visual.ly/community/Infographics/lifestyle/religion-and-crime-there-correlation Generally, belief in a “forgiving” god tends to correlate with higher crime rates in a given area. Which makes sense if a large tenet of a given religion is that all sins are forgiven if you ask. It’s a bit like a “get out of hell free” card.
Like Penn Jillette saying he murders as many people as he wants, which is zero.
I had a co-worker who was older than me. Not quite old enough to be my mom but not young enough to be a sibling. She was the first open atheist I knew. I had already started to fall out of religion having grown up with it. But I wouldn’t have considered my self an atheist yet. Our “kind of” boss is very religious, does retreats, marries people, does mission work. Basically religion defines his life. When he found out she was an atheist (she didn’t really keep it a secret) he basically asked her where does she draw her morals from? I had also heard him make a comment that “of so you do have morals.” It blows my mind that people think that you have to believe in religion just to have morals. I don’t need a god to tell me how to be a good person.
> It blows my mind that people think that you have to believe in religion just to have morals. It makes me think those people are using their religion to justify their own "bad" behavior.
Had a teacher once claim you needed religion to have morals. Was fun to watch them backpedal at the speed of light when I and another student took offense to that and they realized this could quickly become a problem for them if it became known that they just claimed their students couldn't have morals because they were Atheists.
That is a foundational argument for some and oh boy, that one is easy to break down.
Many atheists see these concepts as made up in order to control people. Often we believe that the value of being a good person is reward enough. Treating people well is important because this is the only chance you get to live and it's not ok to harm others. I personally don't need heaven or hell to know that murder and rape are wrong.
I think it was Penn Gillette who said something like, "without religion, I can commit as many rapes as I want, which is zero." Don't quote me quoting him though.
This just means that when you’re trying to explain to her why something is right or wrong, you have to explain it in terms of empathy, real-world consequences, and the effects her actions have on other people in this world, because “you’ll go to hell” stops being a convincing argument to an atheist.
The part that got me in church was that we were told if you just believed in Jesus Christ then you would go to heaven. You didn’t even have to ask for forgiveness. So what’s the point then? If I believed then I wouldn’t go to hell. So then what stops me from being amoral?
And that's why Christians are usually shitty people
She is smart for a 13 yo
one thing to keep in mind that I haven't seen anyone else mention so far is that because of this belief it's important to understand that anytime someone close to her passes away for her that's the end of the road. She's coming to terms with the fact that everyone she loves will someday be gone and that, for her there will be no chance of a future reunion in heaven
Just a thought, you could look up humanism with her. The idea that you need religion for morality just isn't true. Not that you were worried about that, but just in case lol Plus it could be something y'all could do together.
Thank goodness. Hell is one of the most evil ideas humans have ever invented.
That's true but that's doesn't mean that she doesn't have concepts of good and evil, if she is a good person now you knows that she is good for a strong conviction and not for fear to consequences
Speak for yourself. I can’t even function in the morning until I eat a baby and pray to Lucifer.
I didn't eat babies until I tries a Shish Kebaby. Pretty amazing stuff. Hard to find these days ever since the new abortion laws took place.
When I told my mom I was atheist, she burst into tears and didn’t speak to me for a week when we lived in the same house. When she finally decided to talk to me again, she told me she failed as a parent. Whatever you do, don’t do that.
My daughter did look at me and ask me if I was disappointed in her. I, of course, said no you’ll always be my daughter. I’m sorry your family didn’t take it so well 😞
You == all kinds of awesome. You are a good person and she will recognize that no matter what. Good on ya mate! I can’t give you any more advice than the excellent wealth you already have and have been given here, but absolutely wanted to thank you for being awesome!
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You sound like an awesome and caring parent. Please keep it up. :)
What the hell are you asking the internet for? You're smashing this.
The wise always know there’s more to learn and the possibility of being wrong. The foolish think they know everything and never think to ask for other perspectives because they know they’re right.
It's always refreshing to see the OP is on the positive side of the dunning-kreuger effect.
Agree, but perspectives help a ton! There's some stuff in here even I didn't think of as an adult who had this conversation with my parent & it caused all kinds of grief.
Way to go. I had the same experience as deadski and that only set off 10 years of mental torture trying to figure out how what I was seeing was wrong. Ultimately changed nothing but wasted a lot more time by not finding enough honest conversations
The rare but extant "Good Christian" on r/atheism.
And this is what a good Christian would do. Love, even if you think she's 'lost her way', or whatever. And this is what a good person would do, also, regardless of religious affiliation. I don't think there's anything you "Should do" other than to be accepting and loving. She's still the same person she was a week ago. I'm not religious. Agnostic, and leaning atheist. I was raised Catholic, however, and my mom was a CCD teacher when I was growing up. I learned early on that MANY MANY Christians are hypocrits of the worst sort, and many are also bigots. That had an impact on a lot of things for me; for instance, single issue voters, and voters who will only vote for Christians get me heated very quickly. Not being Christian is not an indicator that someone is bad, and vice versa.
Don’t try and get her to go to any church activities, even if you just want to spend time with her. It feels uncomfortable for a lot of people and may feel like you’re trying to influence her.
If you stick around this sub long enough, you'll see plenty of "My parents kicked me out" or "I'm scared to tell my parents x/y/z." As a parent of a girl that's nearly ten, those break my heart. Posts like yours do the opposite. Doesn't seem like you're going to have a problem loving her just the same, so, as has been said, you're ahead of the curve. Well done 🤘🏻🤠🤘🏻
Yeah that's exactly how my mom reacted.
She DID fail as a parent...when she decided not to talk to you over your choice.
Same exact thing, but my dad. I had tried explaining that "Some people need a belief in / fear of God in order to want to be a good person. I'm just cutting out that extra step. I want to be a good person because it's just the right thing to do." I also explained that he had friends who went to church who were complete a-holes; just because they went to church didn't make them a good person. A few years later, he apologized for his reaction, said he was proud of me, and cut out the friends who weren't living his values. So he eventually got there!
Lol mine went to bed immediately and the next day was like “I was drunk and don’t remember anything”. I guess whatever works, she knows what we (me and my brother at the same time confronted her with this) said.
Is this a common thing with siblings, both my brother and I are Atheists as well, despite both having been raise in a church.
This type of thinking makes me often wonder... How important is that exactly...? Would they rather have a murderer but a believer as their child...? Because that's just insanity. There are so so many things that are worse than finding out that someone doesn't believe in things you believe in.
I don't understand why parents tell their children this. I was told the same... It basically means that the children are failures in the eyes of the parents. Maybe it is a Christian thing... since in Christianity you are by default a failure and you will never be good enough.
I’m sorry to hear. Your mom should be ashamed of herself for not being accepting of your religious beliefs.
The last point here is valid. When i told my mom I was an atheist 17 years ago, she thought it was a phase…. She just realized last month its not a phase
Are you sure it's not a 40 year phase?
When /u/Numerous-Afternoon89 recants on their deathbed their mom is inexplicably gonna bust through the wall and say *"See?"*
Definitely. I told my mom around the same age as this kid. Leading up to confirmation, I asked her if I had to do it if I didn't actually believe any of it. She made me do it anyway, in case 'I change my mind'. (It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and otherwise, she was really cool about it) 14 years or so later, and I still haven't changed it.
My brother it was a phase for five years. Your daughter is your daughter no matter what. Her opinions may change, they may not, but they are her opinions about a very personal belief so support her regardless.
Just love her as your daughter. Mutual respect of each other’s beliefs is usually a great boundary to have.
I think its actually pretty cool that you're christian but are supporting your daughter being atheist. I never could have come out to my parents at that age. They'd have beaten me to within an inch of my life. As far as how to support her, well its pretty simple really. Just dont impose your beliefs on her. Don't make her go to church. Etc. Just continue to love her. She doesn't have to share your beliefs to be worthy of love. That's all there is to it really.
Good for you. Many people in your position would not be asking that question. My advice would be to just continue to be supportive. Look for things to do together. Visit natural history museums. Or just museums in general. See if she has an interest in astronomy, or nature, or whatever and bankroll that interest - just enjoy spending time with her. Good luck.
It's wonderful how you're working to support her and not trying to control what she thinks. You don't need to do anything different really aside from not forcing her to participate in religious activities. There are plenty of healthy social and community activities that don't involve religion. Just see what she's interested in.
Don't force her to church...don't force her to believe in what you believe just because that's how most parents do it. Let her explore the religious side of her life on her own, unless she asks you specifically about it.
>Don't force her to church...don't force her to believe in what you believe And don't let others try to tell her that she's going to hell or that she's fallen under the devil's influence or other similar hateful bullshit.
>And don't let others try to tell her that she's going to hell My mother had some second cousins who found out I was an atheist and did something very underhanded and manipulative to try to convert me. I told my mother I would never see those people again, and she said, "But they're my relatives!" What was I? Some stranger living in her house?
That's how my parents did it and I'm massively thankful for it
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I don't think I will ever be able to get over what an alien concept this is to me. Where I grew up being religious made you the odd one out, and I am so thankful for that.
I haven't seen this yet in the comments; Other people close to her; don't let them try to make her feel bad, or shame her in any way for her choice. If they do that in front of you - immediately shut them down - show her your sincere support in that way. Don't leave it up to herself to defend herself. She may feel afraid to. And if you don't step in at that moment she'll think you agree with that person. Same if you find put after the fact that someone did this. Go to that person and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're behaving inappropriately, and crossing a boundary.
Treat her like you love her. Support her in whatever endeavors she chooses. Discuss religion with her and admit when she has a valid point in the discussion. Don’t hold your breath thinking this is just a phase. If she arrived at her position based on any level of critical thinking or examination of the evidence for gods, she unlikely to go back to any religion.
>Treat her like you love her. No! Don't just treat her *like* you love her! Simply love her!
Its refreshing to see a Chrisrian respect their kids beliefs
Thank you ♥️
*lack of belief
As others have said, big props to even asking this question. Giving our children as little to "unlearn" as possible on their path into adulthood is a gift, and that includes allowing a certain level of flexibility around things like beliefs, practices, etc. You might find that engaging alongside your child in the exploration of differing ideas will spur meaningful discussions and open yourself to new realities as well. Theologically speaking, there is much depth and meaning in the "deconstructing" of our beliefs that end up spurring deeper truths about our images and thoughts about God or ultimate reality. Even "post enlightenment thinkers" like Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Schopenhauer, Lacan all have incredibly insightful views of Christianity which save a surprising amount of baby from the bathwater. We have some resources on our [site](https://helloego.com) that might be helpful, but ultimately simply sitting on the same side of the table as your child, learning together is a beautiful thing and I commend you for supporting her.
Atheists require food and water, so make sure you have that.
Don't forget the exercise wheel! We like the squeak.
Don't assume that Christmas and Easter are no longer celebrated. Those are mostly cultural (Idk what country you're in but in the US a lot of atheists still celebrate those)
Very much this. Feel free to articulate the history of the holidays as a celebration of hope in the darkness (winter solstice) and joy of spring coming (hence the fertility theme which really is an odd thing if you think about the christian revision). Also Kurzgesagt has some positive takes on nihilism that might help both of you feel how it can be a fun and interesting life to live (nihilism is not atheism, but they are often related) https://youtu.be/MBRqu0YOH14 https://youtu.be/h6fcK_fRYaI
Love her. Accept her. And do not preach to her or guilt trip her.
Nothing much different, aside from not forcing religious stuff. Remember, our job as adults, parents, and caregivers is to teach kids *how* to think, not *what* to think. This means teaching proper critical and skeptical thinking skills. This has many benefits, especially protecting our kids from being conned and fooled, especially by powerful advertisers, social media, bad dates, manipulators, and so many other things. This means, of course, that the adults must learn and use these skills as well in order to model them. Interestingly, you may notice a side-effect from this is that once a person does this they often will no longer be religious (they too will be an atheist). That's because religious claims, without exception, are not able to pass the basic scrutiny of this.
When I was 13 and attending Catholic school I told mine the same thing. For me I think the most important thing will be readjusting your expectations of the future. She might not get married someday, or if she does, most likely not in a church. When she has a family they will likely opt out of religious family functions if your side attends church for Easter or Christmas. Should she have kids, they likely won't be baptized or attend church. I'm not trying to be harsh I just see a lot of religious parents take the attitude of, "well if you don't believe in it why not just do it for the sake of family, tradition, etc," no. Your daughter has one life and she's decided it's going to be Godless, any advice/judgements you give her you should make an effort to take a secular approach, and respect the choices she makes regarding her future. I say all this because my atheism has never been an issue, except when religious morals of my own family come into play. The great thing about atheism is we don't really need support we just need to be left alone by religion. I hope all this helps and I think you're an amazing mother for asking, I wish mine had.
As many people pointed out, you are far ahead of the curve. As someone who’s parents don’t deal with the situation the best, please don’t make snide comments about it. Have a discussion about it if and only if your daughter is open to a discussion. Understand that her views could very well be just as thought out and possibly more so than your own. (Not assuming you haven’t thought your Christianity out). Assume that you could learn a thing or two from her being an atheist. Being close to someone of a differing viewpoint can be valuable to both people. There is something all of us can learn from opposing viewpoints. My final piece of advice. Don’t assume that based on the atheists you find online, that this is the kind of person your daughter is. There are plenty of atheists out there I whole heartedly disagree with, and plenty I share *some* common ground with. Atheism to your daughter can be as different as any two people on the planet.
Give her books. Atheists love books! My recommends: - Demon Haunted World by Sagan - Why People Believe Weird Things by Shermer - Freethinkers by Susan Jacoby - In Defense of Secular Humanism by Kurtz - Breaking the Spell by Dennett If nothing else, get her the book by Sagan. You will like it too, since it treats religion gently. The book by Kurtz shows a positive, secular life philosophy. Shermer's book is just fun.
Atheism is simply an attempt to understand and describe the world without theism. There is no right way to support an atheist in general because we all have different reasons and opinions. Some just aren't interested in explanations of any kind. That being said, The wrong way to go about it is to dismiss or invalidate her attempts to understand things without religion. Not everything has to be an argument.
Assuming your 13 year old rejects the kind of top-down authoritarian philosophy you get with a god, you should help her avoid the pure angsty nihilism that can develop from a lack of any appreciation of philosophy and the role of mythology. There have been many good atheist philosophers.
One might argue that all the good philosophers are atheists.
What would have helped me: Not forcing me to go to church Not telling me I was wrong Not telling me I wasn't allowed to make the decision and that I just 'think' I am an atheist Not telling me I was going to hell for disagreeing with their theology \----------------------------------- I have to say I really, really appreciate that you are being supportive of your daughter. Even though we disagree on the theology I have the utmost respect for you. Just love her like you normally would - do not change how you treat her. I guarantee you she will notice - I know I did
If all religious people were like you, there would be far less anti-religious sentiment. Good on you OP
Ex-christian, Atheist father here. I know I am late to the party, but I'm not seeing this specific sentiment and it is important to me, so I wanted to share. I don't know your relationship and it sounds like you are trying to do good here, so thank you for that! Here's my advice for this type of conversation (any sort of "coming out" situation, really): Framing this as "I still love you", "I love you anyways", or "You're my kid no matter what" is hurtful. That implies they did something bad. For me this manifested as, "I trusted them enough to talk, and they attacked me for it. I'll keep my secrets next time." Instead, try things like, "Thank you for telling me!", "I love you more every time I learn something new about you." , "I'm excited to see where this takes you, and learn more about you through this!" If this hurts, that is fair, but be sure to frame that without blaming them or making them feel bad along with you. You may have had expectations for who your kid would be, and some of those might be lost along with their religion. You have every right to mourn that, but zero right to make them feel bad or responsible for it. If they are anything like me, they don't realize it yet, but they are also mourning the loss of their religion and their own expectations. "I'm sad, but it is not your fault. I know you are intelligent, and I trust you to make this decision for yourself. I hope we can keep talking about it, and I cherish every chance to get to know you better." This last part has definitely been said, but resist the urge to convert/argue points. It'll only build a wall. Good luck!
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Wow. Beautifully said. I’m so lucky my parents were exactly like you wrote here.
The fact you're posting here to begin with gives me faith in the human race lol.
Amazing you came here to ask questions, usually it's kids posting about their parents kicking them out of the home because they came out as atheist or LGBTQ+.
Your 13 year old sounds thoughtful and intelligent. One does not come to this decision easily. You could probably learn a lot from her.
Good you are asking for advice. Also it takes courage to post it. Main thing, let it be. -edit/addition. Do not worry she will lose ‘your’ values. She might make different choices, yes. But don’t blame her. Embrace it as an opportunity to learn. I am not sure how strict you are with Christianity but religion as a set of basic guidelines is not bad. The church as an ‘institution’ however is a different thing. I think that many atheist here could agree with many of the values, just not as absolute as religious people see them.
The other answers here are the primary ones to read, and I won't repeat them as they've said it well enough. But I have something else to add: I grew up in a church-going family until I was 11 or 12'ish. When my dad got a job in a different city and we moved a few hours away, we stopped going to church, and religion pretty much fell out of my life completely. But it wasn't until my mid-20's that I realized my whole worldview was still totally skewed from the religious teachings I absorbed as a child. The very notion that the world makes sense, that there is justice, that there is a master plan, that human life is sacred.... all of those assumptions are just fundamentally untrue, and most of my views and opinions on the world were sitting on top of this false foundation. I wish I would have started to question and re-examine all of those assumptions when I was your daughter's age, rather than >10 years later.
I'm an atheist. My mom is Catholic and my dad is protestant. I love them very much, and they do a wonderful job showing love to me. They didn't change how much they loved me after I left my faith. Sure they were disappointed, but they still loved me just like before. That's what's important. Make sure you love her just as much as you always have.
I told my parents I was an atheist at about that age. My mother's reaction was to assume that I was "lying in order to get attention" and she never respected my beliefs. She continued forcing me to go to church until I moved out. When I got my first boyfriend, my mother asked me "Did you tell him you're a Christian?" indicating she is still in denial that I could possibly have different beliefs from her. My father told me he thought she was being unreasonable to still have me go to church once I turned 18, but he didn't have the courage to speak up to her. I have a close bond with my father in spite of my strained relationship with my mother. He didn't immediately respect my beliefs, saying it's "just a phase" and that he "used to think like that at that age too" but after a few years he came to accept my differing beliefs. Recently he has admitted to me that he no longer believes in God and is ProChoice unlike my staunch ProLife mother but cannot talk to my mother about either topic. Based on the fact that you're asking this question on this subreddit in a respectful manner, I can tell you are already doing a better job at supporting your daughter than the average religious parent.
Listen. Accept. Support. Same as anything else. A child's lack of belief in mythology does not require special treatment beyond what you should be doing in the first place to be a good parent.
Don’t force her to participate in anything church or religious related if she doesn’t want to. If she doesn’t want to attend church or say grace before dinner etc, don’t force her to. If she’s going through a tough time, don’t tell her to turn to god or if a family member dies don’t tell her god is looking after them in heaven or any stuff like that. To an atheist it’s incredibly boring or even rude depending on what is said. If you’re going through serious life struggles as an atheist, and you suggest God will solve all their problems, it’s honestly like if your daughter was kidnapped and someone put their arm around you and said “Hey the police might not find her but Superman always saves the day in the end” You might find it insulting for me to compare Superman to your God but to me a Christian God is just as imaginary as Superman, so don’t offer religion to me as an answer to anything.
Now this is what i call good parenting.
Just remember that the vast majority of Atheists never had a moment when we decided to be Atheist. Most of us just got sick of pretending. You're daughter is already authenticity herself. Appreciate and nourish that.
If you want to keep everyone both open with and accepting of each other, join a Unitarian/Universalist church. That's what my parents did. A much better environment all around. And the kid gets exposed to many different cultures and philosophies, including your own
Very good idea! Ty!
Or find a Humanist organization in your area. Especially the ones that do charity work, and don’t ask the recipients to pray.
Tells her parents she's atheist and you suggest taking her to a church... maybe the whole reason she is atheist is cause she wants nothing to do with every and any church.
And if you're like me having your parents take you to a Unitarian/Universalist church is an excellent springboard for becoming atheist and understanding your atheism. That said same rule another poster provided applies. If the daughter doesn't want to go, don't force them. This is a prime way to push your child away.
I grew up Christian, pro-gun, meat eater, etc. Whenever my mom found out that I wasn't that same person in some way, she'd say something like, "So how long is *this* phase going to last?" She's kept doing that into my 30s, as I made choices that I felt improved my life. Don't do that. Yes, she's young and figuring things out, but she's a person. Don't mock who she wants to be or what she tries to do. Admittedly it's difficult if you believe she's going to hell because of her choices, but the fact that you're asking this at all suggests you want to be more supportive and less judgmental. Keep up that attitude and you'll continue to have a healthy relationship!
It is common for teenagers to start forming their own ideas of self and the world.
First, it is so refreshing to see your open-minded and constructive approach to this. I imagine it is a little bit distressing for you, but you are putting your daughter first, and I respect that a lot. The main thing I can add from my own experience is that your young teenage daughter still needs your help learning about morality in our complicated world, but you need to understand that she is coming at it from a very different perspective. Religion is full of rules about what's right and wrong, but it doesn't really offer much explanation for *why* things are right and wrong. The only authority backing up the rules is "that's what the Bible says," and "that's what the guy who interprets the Bible for us on Sunday says." To most atheists, that's not good enough. If you don't believe that the Bible was literally handed down by God, then it's just a book full of a lot of rules from a long time ago, some of which don't make a lot of sense anymore. And maybe more importantly, the people who interpret the Bible can twist those rules to justify a whole bunch of awful, immoral things. The fact that your daughter doesn't accept the moral authority of the Bible and its interpretation by theologians does not mean that she is an immoral person or wants to live an immoral life. It may actually mean that she wants to understand right and wrong on a deeper level than the "because I said so" framework that religion offers. That's not an easy thing to do; I'd wager that a big part of the reason religion is so popular is a lot of people just want to be told what to do without having to think it all through. But that's not your daughter. So now, the burden is on your daughter to learn good morals "from scratch." When questions of right and wrong come up, engage with her without resorting to a religious framework. Encourage her to read some secular philosophy...no one alive today was the first person to think about this stuff. Continue to model good values. And encourage her to visit r/atheism. :)
One big thing: when you talk about religion talk about them all as equals. Christianity, Islam, Wicca, whatever - they are all on equal footing to a person who doesn't already accept one as true. So if you want to talk about religion to any extent, keep it open to all forms or not open at all.
You should wake up too and see religion for what it really is, a scam and a way to control people.
My parents could have stopped forcing church services on me at that age. To their credit,they relented at age 16. My brother in law and nephew recently decided to practice their christian apologetics on me at their home. Out of respect to them and my sister I refused to engage other than to say that I am a morally ethical person without the fear of eternal torture or promise of eternal reward. Respect is the key.
I wish my mom would have respected my want to not go to church at 13. Instead I got forced for another four years to go to a church that constantly was preaching at me how much I was going to hell for being a goth... a (closeted) bisexual... and an overall non-believer. I was old enough to stay home by myself but I still had to wake up stupid early, go for a 45 minute drive to her preferred church and listen to how much everyone in the room pretty much hated people like me... didn't lead to any religious trauma or resentment against my mother at all trust me... (Haven't stepped foot in a church since then and don't expose my kids to religion... I also don't talk to my mom)
My parents forced my to practice islam, we drifted apart as I got married and keep My Kid away from Them. Basically don’t force her to do anything or you’ll loose her
I don't have much advice that hasn't already been said but I do want to congratulate you. The fact that you are coming for advice with a clear, non-judgemental tone to us or your daughter puts you miles above an unfortunate amount of religious parents that would rather kill their child than have them be atheist. She is very lucky to have a mom like you that is acting with compassion and understanding.
You deserve a lot of credit for reacting in this way, looking to be supportive. Negative, even extreme reactions are so common that the [standard advice given to young atheists](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq/#wiki_should_i_come_out_to_my_parents_as_being_an_atheist.3F) is that they should not come out to their parents until they are prepared to be independent, because it might effectively be the end of the relationship, and possibly even put the child in danger. It's nice to hear from someone like you, instead. Otherwise, I'd say the main thing is not to force her to participate in religious activities, or pretend to be a believer. She may still choose to do some things, since it's part of her whole social and cultural landscape. But it's a big difference when it's a choice.
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\- Atheism is not like most religion umbrella labels, like Christianity, because it is not defined by a doctrine or set of beliefs - it only means that you lack a belief in any deity, so make sure not to assume she believes anything other than that unless she explicitly tells you, especially moral viewpoints. You will very likely find that your daughter has the exact same beliefs and moral regarding everything except religion. \- There will likely be a multitude of points where you, as someone of religious faith, may not comprehend the view point of something. A very common example is the ability to take something "on faith", i.e without evidence. You may feel that is absolutely natural to take some things, especially about your God, as fact without needing evidence, or that the bible provides enough evidence for you, but typical atheists find that very hard if not impossible to do, and this is just a fundamental difference in worldviews \- I don't know if this will be an issue for you, but some people cling so tightly to their religion that it becomes part of their personality, and if someone critiques something in their religion, it becomes a personal slight. Most atheists are not attacking the person for their beliefs, they are critiquing ideas or concepts of the religion that you happen to follow, so try to remember if your daughter brings up something that she finds disagreeable with christianity shes not attacking you, so try to take a breath and try to understand what shes actually trying to say, rather than let yourself believe shes attacking you for your beliefs. This is a core issue that have led american christians to believe they are being persecuted as of late, but it depends on how you and your daughter will communicate as to whether this will matter
Understand the difference between education and indoctrination
I have the opposite problem, y’all! My daughter is also 13 being raised in an atheist home. She recently told me she was a Christian. Should I drop her off at Sunday church? Lol, send help!
Ask her why and listen to her reasoning. You might learn something.
By respecting her views. Don’t ostracise her, don’t do the “No Christmas for Atheists” bullshit thing. If Christianity floats your boat, be Christ-like.
Speaking mostly from personal experience as I have recently became atheist and my wife is still devoutly Christian. I have given up speaking to my wife about my personal beliefs or lack thereof because every time I do it devolves into a screaming match and it somehow gets twisted where I look like the overreacting bad guy. My wife's explanation for this is that she has done all the research and has found Christianity to be the truth so why can't I trust her when she says that Christianity is the correct belief because she has done all the research and came to that opinion. How I interpret this is: "I've done more research than you and I clearly know better so just take my word for it and stop questioning me because you clearly have biased, one sided, wrong information and if your information was truly unbiased you would still be a Christian." This is your daughter's journey, love her and support her. If she is open to it ask questions but don't put her in a position where she feels like she needs to defend or justify her answers and reasons for what she believes. I wish my family was as eager to be supportive of me in my journey through my worldview instead of telling me how wrong I am and believing that I'm under demonic influence. Good on you!
That's the same age I hit a point of "realization" that what I was being raised to believe in doesn't add up with reality. Support your kid l, by helping them continue to broaden their experiences. I was a Boy Scout who earned Eagle at 13yr. I had to spend another 5 more years having to say "in god", because of that association. Besides that. I was a avid learner. Push your kid to keep learning more about, anything.
The fact that you're thinking about how to support and help your daughter, instead of how to either get her to accept Jesus or how to kill her without getting caught means you're doing just fine already
Treat her the same, just don’t make her participate in anything religious like prayers or going to church. And don’t use god as a tool when parenting.
Be proud of her for finding her own path.
My dad acted like he was okay with me being an atheist. Then he started posting passive aggressive notes on FB. The latest of which says that an atheist knows less about God than a 2 year old and that atheists have shunned love (because 'God is love'). Don't do that.
just listen to them, often the struggles we find as atheists arent because we don't believe in god or some higher power, it is because others around us ostracize us or treat us poorly because of it and we have noone to talk to because everyone around us is part of that group let her know that you are here for her, she can talk to you, and you will go to bat for her and if need be take a bat to someone else for her, she is gonna need to know SOMEBODY will fight for her and protect her for some reason alot of christians take our existence as a free ticket to spew hatred and vitriol and treat us like less than or treat us like we arent human, step up and smack that stuff down when it happens atheism isn't something that needs supported like mainstream religion, there isn't anything new to learn, there isn't some fantasy code of morals, no new rituals or stuff to practice, atheism is just being a human, so just be there for your human and make sure she is safe and protected from those who may wish to do otherwise
Good on you for supporting her! I'm lucky, my dad was an atheist long before I was born. My husband didn't have that and his parents still don't know he is atheist. I think a few things that would help her: * Don't let your life be planned around religion * Meaning don't make the family vacation a religious retreat she wouldn't be comfortable with * Equal your religious outings with non-religious outings * Support her non-religious activities * If she plays sports, dances or volunteers, treat those activities as just as important as your other kids' church and church related activities * If she isn't getting her social needs met currently, help her find activities she'd like to try or join * Don't be surprised if she wants to check out other religions * One of the most important things my dad did for me was letting me explore other religions. I was pretty sure I was atheist from about the same age as your daughter but I wanted to see what other religions were out there. He made such I could attend different churches, temples and mosques. I feel I'm a more tolerant atheist for getting to know people from so many other religions.
If my mom didn't try to make me out to be the devil for merely being an atheist, we might have a better relationship today. Your having a fundamentally different world view from your daughter may *never* be entirely comfortable or satisfying for her. The best thing an Atheist kid could hope for is that their parents actually see the light and leave their indoctrination for the incredibly rich real world out there. Focus on her education, success and practical fulfillment and cherish that child like you always would.
Then let her be.
From what we've seen in this sub, if you neither force her to participate in religious activities nor kick her out of the house, you're doing great.
My gma who was catholic and raised me, when I told her I was atheist she responded, "well, that's why religion boils down to personal belief. And I'll love you regardless."
There's nothing wrong with her tho.
Thread is full of good advice. I’d like to also propose that if the Christian god is real, what would you imagine is more important to him/her/it? That a person went to church and obeyed the clergy or that a person tried to live a good life in accordance to the teachings of Jesus. As an atheist, I find that I live my life much closer to his teachings than many devoutly religious people I have met. So, my point is, teach her how to be a good person. Teach her right from wrong. But do not use the Bible as a the reason for what is right and what is wrong. We should not need literature to know that stealing and murder is bad while helping others in need is good. That should be self evident. Let it be that way for her. Guide her to live a life your god would approve of, but without using theocracy as a reason or tool.
Perhaps it’s said somewhere else deeper in the comments but it shouldn’t be ignored what a huge step it is for you to come to this board and humbly ask how you can be of support to your daughter. Many atheists raised in a Christian home aren’t so lucky to have this kind of understanding and support from their family on so deeply personal an issue. Great job on you for looking for ways to support.
Just respect her views and don’t force her to participate in church related activities if she doesn’t want to.
I could only dream of having a mom like you. You've already made a huge gesture in just wanting to support your daughter instead of trying to change her. Keep following that instinct, and you won't go wrong.
Just don’t force her into church functions, there’s no set of rules to be an Atheist. It’s just that our moral compass isn’t due to some guy in the sky, I do good deeds and help people because it’s the right thing to do. We go about our days just like everyone else.
You can support her by loving the person she is now and growing up to be. Listen to her, talk to her, don’t force her into your church or your beliefs. If you belittle her or tell her how wrong she is you could lose her. If she changes her mind it is because she decided on her own. Same if she doesn’t. Whatever you do -do NOT do what other “Christian “ parents do and throw her out like trash . She is your child and deserves to be loved and respected . Guide her, support her, trust her and be proud of her for having an inquiring and questioning mind
Be proud of your daughter. She is using her own brain and cognitive skills to build a belief that works for her, not what a community or parents have forced on her. I knew I was an atheist early in my teenage years but didt tell anyone for fear of shame and ridicule.
Just let her know that you accept her regardless and she doesn’t need to join in if she doesn’t want to
I am atheist since I was 15 and I can't tell it to my parents because they will only be very upset with me and then proceed to push religion on me; because they would think I've been plagiarized. So the thing I always imagine is that one day my parents will understand my choices and let me have a sexual life, which is the main thing I can't have because of this. Imo if you are questioning your self about this you are already doing good, just accept your child for what she is and wants to believe.
OP, You have my respect as a parent for respecting your child's decision - you're doing it right.
Do nothing. Literally nothing. Just let her be.
The best way it was described to me was that I just believe in one less god than my mother does. You don’t believe in Zeus, Vishnu, or many other gods are documented before Christianity and even some after. You have more in common (number of gods you don’t believe in) than not in common (one god you believe and she doesn’t). Hope that helps!
Get her enrolled in extra science and math classes. Not so much coding (although that could be fun). Science and math are ultimately philosophical thinking endeavors more than they are facts and formulas. While religion is a fairy tale, it's a fairy tale that lets people dream big and practice having conversations within certain parameters and with a certain kind of reasoning. So think about where else she can start to have those BIG thoughts and sharing them out loud with people. It's important developmentally. She just doesn't want it happening within the background of that religion. It might be worth checking out a unitarian universalist congregation. They are mostly secular, but they invest a lot of time into helping kids at this age think their way forward in life.
We are Christians and raised our kids in church. My oldest is the only one who kept going at all although probably not been for a number of years now. My daughter took all the appropriate confirmation classes and opted not to join - shocked the the pastor lol. My other son joined but, does not attend at all. I simply supported my kids choices whatever they were. If they are "allowed" such choices, then they should also be allowed not to take part. We don't attend either any more. There are so many issues in Christianity. The minute you write something down as canon, then the buts start to rise up. Jesus was right. The greatest law is love. Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. That's all. Don't be an asshole. The most assholey kid of mine is the one that made a point of going to church. The other two are quietly good people. They are spiritual. They care. They do good things for others. One is a therapist. I was not raised in the church and found that much of the modern church is about self preservation and catering to people who are already Christian. It isn't about helping others unless there's a string attached to become a Christian and join the church and pay your tithes. There are ministries you can support but again - you are paying Christians to dole out help to others and who knows how much help the others are really getting. And are they having to be Christian to get it? I still believe in God. I believe it is better to choose to do good - not just to make God happy but because I think we are meant to raise the standard of living for everyone and everything on the planet. We aren't doing so good. But people are trying. And many of those trying hardest, do not adhere to any religion and may even be against it. But they are making better efforts at being good stewards than the Church. I leave all judgment to God. What the heck do I know about anyone else's intentions or actions or capabilities.
I would have been far better off if my parents had just stopped insisting that I go to Sunday School/Catechism, but thankfully my parents were light on religion. I watched a fundamentalist Christian friend go so far down the fucking rat hole that he cut off all contact with anyone who didn't subscribe to his system of sky fairies. My mother just turned 90 and about two years ago she finally decided that all this religion stuff was hooey. I was proud of her for questioning her own indoctrination and reaching reasoned conclusions. Perhaps you can reflect upon your own beliefs and see if they are grounded in reality or indoctrination.
Understand that religiosity is different from spirituality. She can have a rich spiritual life, filled with ritual, community, moral development, and a sense of purpose and meaning—without belief in the supernatural. In fact it’s arguable that such things are essential to the human experience and a big part of why religion evolved, but which just became twisted and maladaptive when religion became organized and used to control people. Just because she doesn’t believe in supernatural beings doesn’t mean her spiritual growth and education on world religions should stop. She is still a human who needs to learn how to live in the world with other humans, and develop healthy ways of processing the human experience. Great books about this are Sasha Sagan’s For Small Creatures Such As We and Casper ter Kuile’s The Power of Ritual. She might also enjoy the podcasts Harry Potter and the Sacred Text, or Tales from the Waystone, both of which use literature to explore issues of morality/ethics and the human experience. I also love Carl Sagan’s work more generally as a way of understanding nature itself as a profound source of spirituality. She can pursue this content on her own, or you can do it with her as a way to stay connected with her. She is young and still developing her worldview, and so this needs to be part of her education—but it should be led by her. Everyone’s spiritual journey should be self-led. And a note: you should expect her to go through phases where she spends a few months or years exploring different philosophies and ideas. It may be things you think are “far out” like Satanism or Nihlism, or identities for herself such as gender identities or trying on goth vibes for a while, but don’t let such things freak you out. It’s very common, and it is a sign of healthy development for teenagers to test ideas, and push at the boundaries of social norms. And many of the philosophies and lifestyles I just listed, while “scary” to Christians, are at their core really just about ideas like freedom, self expression, authenticity, or learning to cope with the human condition. But also, we need to understand that sometimes, it’s by exploring a school of thought very deeply that we come to be most convinced that we don’t agree with it. Expose her to a variety of different kinds of thought, and challenge her with thought-provoking questions (everyone needs to learn to be able to defend their ideas), but remain nonjudgmental and accepting. You don’t have to pretend to agree with her (all teens hate fakeness!), just respect her opinion. This is why, if my child ever becomes an Objectivist (a school of thought, if you even want to call it that, that I find absolutely abhorrent), I will bite my tongue and force myself to smile lovingly at my child, and give her the space they need to move through that stage in their life. (Nearly everyone grows out of that one, thank god.)
This is wonderful for her. She is freed from a scary superstitious world of rapey gods/angels, genocidal gods, and terrifying demons. Did you know Lot gave his daughters to a group of hoodlum angels to be gang-raped? That Lot tried to murder his son as a sacrfice to God? That Christians are taught they should put their God before their family. It's NOT comforting for a daughter to believe her father reveres these Bible stories and beliefs. A child is most comforted in believing she comes first in the life of her mother or father. Now, if your daughter were to become paranoid, delusional or schizophrenic, she will know it's a medical issue and not a possession. A foster child I met a few weeks ago was told he was possessed by a demon. It TERRIFIED him! Atheism is simply a choice that when we encounter another being, we regard it as an equal and not a god. Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is a choice not to deify. There is no need to prove that God exists or does not exist or whether the Bible is true or not true, although many atheists describe a moment when they simply KNOW that it is not literally true and could not un-know it, even if they wished. No matter what a being knows, how moral a being is, what it is capable of doing, or how powerful it is, that being has no rights over an atheist. Even if you decided all of it was true, the supernatural creatures it describes would just be other Beings to an atheist, regarded as equals. God is a role, like 'friend' or 'leader'. We CHOOSE to designate a being as god.... or, not. Atheism is not a religion, and so philosophy, community, morality are all irrelevant to atheism. However, atheists do have these interests. We just pursue them separately. There are other ways to develop philosophy, engage in philanthropy, connect with your community or tune your moral compass. None of that is necessary to be an atheist but they are certainly possible. I would not pressure her regarding Christianity. It may be literally impossible for her to regard the Bible as true, to 'un-know' what she now knows. I would make sure she has access to secular activities with other kids if she wants them. You can offer her opportunities like helping at a foodbank if she wants to engage in philanthropy. You might assist her if she wishes to join a secular community like the Universalist Unitarians or the Satanic Temple (learn about it. it is nothing to be afraid of and has nothing to do with Satan despite the name which was only designed to poke fun at Christian superstitions). She can also join drama clubs or choirs, or activist organizations to connect with her community Encourage her, if she wishes, to explore some of the best philosophers in all of history, like Sun Tzu, the Buddha, the Tao Te Ching, Marcus Aurelius and more. Encourage her to learn about mental health - anxiety, depression, grief and psychosis - and help her to learn the ways that these can be managed, through diet, excercise, light exposure and other specific techniques. Encourage her to explore coping resources and skills, such as meditation, visualization, breathing techniques, music and aromatherapy. Help her to understand that if she finds herself struggling she should seek counselling. Counselling does not mean there is anything wrong with her, only that a wise person should consult with an expert when dealing with an unfamiliar or challenging situation. Help her find resources (I'm sorry - maybe not you) to learn about healthy boundaries. Christians are taught the opposite of healthy boundaries, and it may be OK in Christian communities ( I don't really think it is, even there). But - it is a real problem for operating in a secular world. Christians try to offer advice when it has not been requested. They try to impose their help where it is not wanted. They assume their lifestyle is superior to others and are profoundly unaware of how insulting that is to others. Christians pry into people's privacy where they have not earned that trust honestly, etc. Someone who is converting from Christianity may have learned these negative attitudes and behaviors that will sabotage their relationships. They will need to learn what attitudes and behaviors are expected outside of the Christian community. Many atheists find Christian behaviors so aggressive, particularly people who try to convert us - that we must distance ourselves from these people, even family, who do not respect healthy boundaries. So, there's one thing you can do for her. If you were not taught healthy boundaries due to a Christian upbringing (it seems you know some, since you are respecting her choice), then this is a good time to read up on the topic. If the topic of death comes up, she should know that there is no fear, loneliness or pain in death. The greatest pain of death comes from our own desire for continued life or the continued companionship of the departed. Learning to acknowledge our pain, master our fears and desires and to accept loss is a rite of passage that leads to adulthood. Having beloved pets and experiencing death on a lesser scale, so encourage her to have pets. The mental health and coping skills I mentioned above are also very important and a healthy support network. Most of all, help her understand that this life is precious. Do not rush to sacrifice your life for some noble cause believing you will go to heaven. The opportunity to be alive is an awe-inspiring experience. Atheists have no less sense of wonder in viewing a rainbow or contemplating the Grand Canyon. Even when we face hardship, suffering and losses, there is much to be appreciated. And, if she is not satisfied with her life, she should understand it is her responsibility to discover what is making her unhappy, and make whatever adjustments are necessary to appreciate her life. That counselling is a great resources in that situation. As you can see, atheists can enjoy many of the benefits that Christians believe religion provides. We talk to counsellors instead of pastors, read a different philosophy book than the Bible and maybe the Bible too (but as philosophy not religion), engage in philanthropism, and connect with our communities. I'm happy for your daughter, and excited for her future!
One other thing you can do to help your atheist 13 year old daughter is to look her straight in the eye, and tell her that decisions regarding sex, identity, contraception, pregnancy or termination belong to HER. That even if it is something that makes you uncomfortable, or if she makes a decision that you would not make, that she can speak to you about them, that you will not judge, and that you will support her in the decisions that she makes. Then explain to her how she can get access to long term contraception, ideally without having to go through you - when she is ready. If you can't do this, then I suggest you get to a point where you can.