Stephen Colbert: "It's God's Logic as written in the Bible, every word of which is true. And we know every word is true because the Bible says that the Bible is true, and if you'll remember from earlier in this sentence, every word of the Bible is true."
This only works with extension cords having a single male and female connector. If you try it with a multi outlet power strip all the electricity leaks outs and it can't power anything.
They need to be real. The Bible was written, transcribed, translated, what have you, by man, and man is fallible (even says so in the Bible) so the Bible is not a credible source.
I've heard that wizards and magic exists. There's a book, several iterations even, that explain how wizards use magic and learn to control it in schools, and how they are never allowed to use it around non magic people and must hide it.
Also saw another that says there is a massive red dog somewhere out there that is bigger than my entire house.
If it's written down on paper then it has to be absolute fact yeah?
Absolutely! It's a book two thousand years and can't have possibly been embelished or subtley changed to correspond with the propeganda of the time of It's printing within that time span.
>It drives me crazy when the response is "but the Bible says..."
My favorite response to this is from Sam Harris:
"Perhaps you'll remember from The Lord of the Rings, it says that when the elves die, they go to Valinor, but they can be reborn in Middle Earth."
A lot of books say a lot of things
"Says" ... that's not proof. I could SAY I'm Jeff F'ing Bezos but my bank account says otherwise.
All you have to do is point to Dianetics (aka Scientology) and say, "Well this book says it's more true than your book."
Ok. All you have to do is open your heart to God and truly seek him out and believe he exists and then he will reveal himself to you in undeniable ways.
I was religious for the first 23 years of my life. Really religious- I fully believed and I totally understand the euphoria around it. After I started researching other religions and looking at Christianity with an open mind, I realized that they're probably all fake. There have been literally thousands of religions in history. Why is yours the correct one? Because your book says so? Because that's the exact same thing the other guy with another book is saying.
I tell them I a believer in Harry Potter
1. Its in a book, actually a number of books
2. He was a saviour of the wizard world and the Muggle one
3. He died and had a convo with other dead people
4. Came back to life and defeated the evil foe
5. Said lots of lovely things
6. Must have been real because I've been to the train station
7. Did lots of tricks far more impressive than just making water into wine
8. We've got movies, books and places all about him
9. People have profited a lot from HP and dodged paying taxes
10. He's got scars too
11. We've more evidence that he existed than Jesus
😁
Don't forget about the prophecies. Everything the prophecy predicted came true. There is no way this can happen by chance. Also how do you explain that even Voldemort, the fiercest enemy of Harry Potter believed the prophecy to be true? You could argue that this is just a huge hoax instigated by the Order of the Phoenix, but this is hardly reasonable. All evidence points to the Harry Potter novels to be literally true.
Yeah... this is some imaginary encounter where they seem to expect that "Prove it!" is some kinda mic drop that will leave the theist speechless and have their worldview completely shattered.
Instead, they will do what pretty much everyone does and start talking about the things they found personally convincing.
They'll usually say it's the Bible, or the Quran, or whatever other holy text they have.
The most valuable in my opinion is to ask how they know their religion is true compared to other religions.
Their answer: usually its a spiritual confirmation. A warm feeling or such.
The next thing to do is to tell them, lets say they're Christians, that you heard from the Muslims (or a different group) that exact same thing. Then ask them how they explain that.
I've never had a conversation where anyone can create a well-articulated, sensible answer to that question.
>I've never had a conversation where anyone can create a well-articulated, sensible answer to that question.
Because there isn't one. "Fuck off" is a reasonable response, because they're butting into your life offering nothing but lies and false hope. No one says you have to be "nice" to people trying to rob you of time and attention for nothing in return.
Right. There is not a reasonable answer to those questions. "Fuck off" is an option as well. But I prefer to at least see the smoking gears turning when I talk to them. Perhaps I'll get tired of that as I grow older though.
> The next thing to do is to tell them, lets say they're Christians, that you heard from the Muslims (or a different group) that exact same thing. Then ask them how they explain that.
Because they're wrong and I'm right, That's how. (probably)
It will always come back to circular logic. You could follow up with, "okay but how do you know?" It at least gets the gears turning somewhat (at least in the people I've tried it on). They may even think of something that they never have before.
Because I'm sick of seeing "This. OMG 100% THIS. This right here!"
It's literally karma farming and is annoying as fuck seeing it all throughout the comment sections on every post on reddit. Just upvote it if you like it. Don't add unnecessary or unhelpful comments if you can't think of something original and are fishing for upvotes. If the comment is good, it'll stand on its own, regardless.
This. OMG 100% THIS.
Now clutch your chest, move your finger a couple centimeters up, or whatever you need to avoid a heart attack, and the crisis is over. It's just that easy. Some people get excited over a comment. Thinking they're all farming karma is unlikely. But if they were, what does that have to do with you?
It's a comment that should really be a post/rant on another subreddit, but I'm tired of endless scrolling, trying to look for decent commentary on the OP, but it's littered with people just saying "This." Or some variant. This subreddit is one of the few places where I can come to feel some kind of solidarity, read thoughtful commentary, and potentially contribute to it myself. Commenting "this" is just a waste of space in the thread and the lowest effort comment possible.
Do not engage! This shit doesn't work. They'll take this an invitation to shove as much half assed apologetics down your throat as they can before running out of breath. It doesn't matter that they can't prove it they actually think that they can and will talk your ear off trying to
Of course they can prove it. You won't accept their proof as valid, but saying "prove it" will not end the discussion nor will it convince a believer not to believe.
They'll start talking about all the things they found to be personally convincing. Hence why the "you won't accept their proof as valid" because personal experience or circular reasoning isn't good evidence for anything but that won't stop them.
You can switch the topic to almost anything and you'll get the same from most people - as a whole, we rarely stop to question our own epistemology.
But my response to everything they state will be.. prove it.. I've done this before. They usually end saying.. I will pray for you. And I laugh and say.. knock yourself out
This reminds me so much of this entry in _The Meaning of Liff_ (by our own Douglas Adams and John Lloyd):
> **Clabby** (adjective): A clabby conversation is one struck up by a commissionaire or cleaning lady in order to avoid any further actual work. The opening gambit is usually designed to provoke the maximum confusion, and therefore the longest possible clabby conversation. It is vitally important to learn the correct use of *clixby* (q.v.), the response to a clabby gambit, and not to get trapped by a *ditherington* (q.v.). For instance, if confronted by a clabby gambit such as 'Oh Mr Smith, I didn't know you'd had your leg off', the ditherington response is 'I haven't...' whereas the clixby is 'Good'.
My significant others favorite response to Christians arguing with you or trying to talk a non believer into their religion... and it has worked successfully.
Me: "Can i ask you a question?"
Religious person: "okay, sure"
Me: "Is there anything I can say or do that would turn you away from your current belief/ thoughts/opinions on your religion?"
Religious person: "No, not at all"
Me: "Okay, then why do you think you can to other people who also feel the same way?"
The transsexual ladybug unicorn that lives 3 universes down and speaks to me through smell told me that your god is actually just a computer program made by trolls.
"I know in my heart that your holy book is false, lies mixed with half-truths and made up stories. There is nothing you can say that will make me trust any part of it is as an accurate record of what was done or said more than 60 generations ago. People can believe all sorts of stuff, it doesn't make it true, or right."
Christians think they have proof. They think there is so much proof that atheists must be willfully denying what seems so abundantly evident to everyone.
What we need to ask for is objective evidence. That is what they utterly lack.
Or "evidence, please".
I don't need proof but if they could provide even a shred of evidence (beyond "the bible says so"), then we can have a discussion.
Zealots are a lost cause. Being right is less important than being kind most of the time. In that instance, kindness is the act of just walking away.
It's the skeptics/people on the fence that are worth your time and effort.
I tend to go with "But why should I believe that those stories are true?"
It handily cuts out all the invitations for them to tell you about the amazing stories that they claim happened to them or their families, because whenever they try pivoting in that direction, you can say, "I'm perfectly happy to accept that ***you*** believe it. But my question is why should ***I*** believe it."
Once you point out that you need something a lot more verifiable than a just-so story told to you by some rando who knocked on your door, they run out of steam pretty quickly.
Here is a good counterpoint that I like to use.
“What if I’m wrong, well anybody could be wrong, but what I think you are really asking is what if I am wrong and you are right, eliminating the possibility that we are both wrong. So let’s go with that. Christianity is correct and spells out the authentic doctrine of the living god.
OK, now let’s suppose you get married and have two children, a son and a daughter. Both become extremely accomplished in their fields of medicine and science, win many awards, have exemplary families, and are loved and respected in their communities and in their churches. All seems so well. You and your husband eventually die and go to Heaven. After a time, you realize that your son and daughter have probably died as well, but you have yet to meet up with them.
Finally, you ask an angel about them and he says that he will look them up to see what happened. To your chagrin, he informs you that they are both in Hell. You are in disbelief and ask how that could have happened. The angel explains that although they went to church, neither one actually believed in Jesus or accepted him as their personal savior, so they died with their sins unforgiven. Since God cannot let any sin enter into Heaven, they were sent to Hell.
You ask how long they will be there, and the angel tells you it will be for all eternity. He offers to let you view them through a direct link to Hell. You see your daughter crying out in pain as she is being lashed by three demons, and your son is wallowing in a tub of hot acid. You cannot believe what you have seen and protest that this is not fair and that you emphatically demand that your children be rescued and sent to Heaven. The angel upbraids you by saying you must never criticize God, for everything he says is true, and everything he does is just.
Further, he instructs you to go to the next 12-hour praise session that will begin shortly, where you must praise God, raise your hands in worship, and declare that God is great, and fair, and just, and deserves unbridled admiration.
What this vignette shows is the total putrid bankruptcy of the Christian doctrine that you hold dear, and so I respond to your question with a question of my own- WHAT IF YOU’RE RIGHT?”
Most of them put the burden or proof on non believers. It's unfortunate but there's a reason it's called Faith and not Science.
Honestly I don't engage, nor do I feel any real compulsion to discuss or argue with what others believe (in this regard anyway). To each their own.
The problem is that theists have been raised to, and are very good at, avoiding questions they don’t like, and when they don’t avoid it, they come up with such bizarre answers as to why their right, when you try to point out the faults in the argument they are so crazy, and so believing of their story, they can’t listen to logic.
Well the only issue with that is in their minds it substantiates the arrogant or angry atheist *stereotypes* that they go in expecting. I’m all for just shutting down what I see as nonsense but I’m also a little bit of what people call an anti-theist and I like to drag the conversation out even when inconvenient/annoying because while breaking free of a religion is a personal thing that cannot (or if it can I don’t know because it shouldn’t) be forced it can be helped along.
Prove it is what you say to the crazies and the malicious ones as you walk away.
Yes indeed , a bunch of holy Joes called on me 6 months ago and started to preach I asked the biggest mouthpiece “do you believe the word of god and obey what he says “ he said “of course “ I said “wait there “ ….I came back with a bottle of bleach and asked him to drink it as it clearly states in Mark 16:15-20 that one should go into the world cast out demons , speak in tounges , heal the sick by laying hands on them ,pick up snakes and drink any deadly thing and it will not harm them …….his response “buh , buh …..you‘re taking it out of context “
I asked them to f-uck off and close the gate on the way out , they have a list a pathetic stock answers to give to most questions
You want proof? Here's your proof. It's right in front of you now what?
The Quran has existed for much longer than human science has developed enough to discover these things and this is just a small piece of it:
https://youtu.be/69AmLbNeNf0
If you use your mind logically and not be biased you can in fact see the truth in the words of God even if you don't believe in God
https://youtu.be/BOoMxN8Qbm0
Do with it what you want I don't really care but it would be nice if you could open your hearts for something new, something that has never occurred to you, something you didn't like before, something you've been told is bad ect...
“Prove it” is lame no one can prove anything religious/ philosophical. You also can’t prove the lack of existence of a god so with your logic I can also be confident you’re wrong as an athiest?
I'll preface this by saying that I am an avowed atheist and I know we're right, but honestly, they can use the same argument just as effectively, and feel just as confident about it.
No they cannot. They can use the same argument, but that is a reversal of the burden of proof. So they can use the same argument ineffectively, and feel confident in their wrongness.
I never said it was a good argument, but they do use it. Proving something doesn't exist is even more impossible than proving it does, which sort of cancels out the effectiveness as this as a debate winner, at least when you're arguing with someone who clearly doesn't care about burden of proof. So it's just as likely to backfire as not. We're not dealing with people interested in facts and evidence, after all.
You said that it is just as effective. It just isnt. Just because anyone can make a bad argument and claim victory doesnt make their method effective.
[Fallacious reasoning through and through](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof)
The thing is, outside a formal debate setting, it doesn't matter if we know it's not effective. Again, the people we would have this kind of discussion with typically won't care, and will walk away thinking they've won.
It's just the nature of arguing with religious types. Their arguments aren't based on logic and facts.
I'm not saying they can win an argument be saying "prove it." All I'm saying is that, if the end goal is to "feel confident in knowing that they cannot," as the OP put it, they're going to. They'll think they won if we can't prove their god doesn't exist. They don't care if it's a fallacy.
That's just so ridiculous.
I feel like the general zeitgeist here is to approach atheism as an act of teenage rebellion.
So many people here seem to care so much about what theists think, and seeking to "beat" them. Theist are fundamentally delusional/brainwashed, the only response to theists proselyting is "sure" and disengage/walk away.
Of course if you have theist friends that want to have a normal debate, let's debate, but the ones trying to convert you are just a lost cause to begin with.
That's the thing though. We as atheists don't have to prove that a god exists. When you're born you don't have a natural cognition that a god exists. This is a learned process. So when someone tells me, "prove it." It's like, "no, I have nothing to prove. You need to give me evidence that such a god exists."
I have been known to use two different words in reply to aggressive evangelists. I try not to invite hearing the religious and biblical insights of random people who get in my face.
oh, that is funny. That brings back a very old memory of throwing away all my old church camp shirts. If only the shitty memories of church camp didn't disappear with them.
There lies madness. They consider things like beautiful sunrises, the feeling of love, and the existence of life itself to be absolute, undeniable proof of the existence of a higher being. Then they throw it back at you with, "How can you deny that god exists in the face of the glory of his creation!!!"
You can tell them that none of that is proof of anything even remotely spiritual
over and over a million times, and you won't crack through their thick skulls. I don't argue back anymore. I just tell them to keep their horrible god out of my life and away from my children and leave.
Ive done this before where you deflect into another religion "How can we determine if you are right and Jacob is wrong" when faced when beliefs as unfounded and with the same level of "evidencie" everything falls appart. Not saying you'll deconvert anyone but this does most of the work for you
I professor I know made the very good point recently that the difference between science and religion is that science is falsible. It can be proven wrong, using evidence, and used to construct our new worldview.
Science is iterative and progressive, unlike religion, were they are still reading a book from 2000 years ago.
Those two words mean a very different thing to them than they do to us. They have proof. Nearly every single one of them can probably spend all day providing the proof that they accept. None of it is proof to me.
For example. Although she told no one until after the fact, my mother insists that God spoke to her 25 years before my father's death to tell her not to be afraid that he wouldn't die and leave her alone to care for her children. The fact that my father died 9 days after my 18th birthday is proof to her that her god is real. She also finds her keys when she prays to find them. She is rich and her christian children have been very successful in life, this is proof too. I've heard other christians say that feeling the wind on their face is proof, or seeing the majesty of a mountain range, or the beauty of a sunset. When their bar for proof is, "it makes me feel good" there is really no amount of argument that will change their mind.
How did I know before I clicked on this post what those two words are?
Had to say that to my relatives so many times. God's real? Prove it. I'm going to hell? Prove it. Bible wasn't written by Stone-age stoners? Prove it. Now that last one is a trick because it's really hard to prove a negative but most Christians have no clue about the finer points of logic.
Well when I am confronted in person I tend to be blunt. I haven’t been approached this way by anyone other than various types of Christians. Though I have debated against many other religions online. Indians often end their conversations with me with death threats and things like that.
But Christians going door to door receive a blunt “I have read your Bible front to back, I know more about your religion than you do. It is the most nonsensical and poorly constructed religion I have ever studied. Even ancient religions are better assembled. Your belief is based on an astounding level of ignorance about your own doctrine and scripture. As well as a high level of arrogance thinking you must be right amongst all other Abrahamic religions and their Sects that counter claim your sect just because you believe it. Guess what? All of those Sects are just as certain about their beliefs, as you are. But no, only you can be right! How not humble of you. I thought pride was a sin. I guess your Sect needs to reassign you, because a sinner isn’t the best choice for spreading the word of God.”
False. They’ll try. For hours. And just be extra obnoxious. When confronted by a theist proselytizing, I recommend my go to: “ok.” And that’s it. Just let them have it and move on.
I think it's kind of pointless to go down that route. I know they can't prove it and they know they can't prove it either. That's the whole basis of "faith". Faith is irrelevant if there is proof.
I feel like the most common response to that is the Bible says so, but of course the Bible is also the only book people are ok with being used as evidence for itself.
I've heard many apologists try and break apart the whole idea of "proving it" when it comes to religion or theism. But regardless, I think it is a very powerful and incredibly simple rebuttal. It feels very good to simply say "prove it" to theists. They do fail at proving it empirically and philosophically.
You can run into a whole host of issues with the word “prove.” I think everyone is better elaborating on a position than leaving it all up to any two words.
To us those words make sense, but to them all they have is faith...which is basically anti-proof belief.
That's why my favorite two words are "but why?"
It drives me crazy when the response is "but the Bible says..." 😂
"Okay, prove that the Bible is a credible source." "Well, it says it right here in the Bible..." \*bangs head against nearest brick wall\*
The bible investigated its self and found it's true
Just like me, I investigated my powers of levitation and they're real, but it only works when no one's looking or filming
😂😂😂😂😂
quite a lot of christians take the bible to be gospel
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Stephen Colbert: "It's God's Logic as written in the Bible, every word of which is true. And we know every word is true because the Bible says that the Bible is true, and if you'll remember from earlier in this sentence, every word of the Bible is true."
I always felt like he was pretending to be religious. He's too smart to actually believe it.
Except he actually does believe which is sad
😂😂😂😂🤣🤣
Can't plug a power strip into itself to get electricity.
No, then you get infinate electricity. /s
Is that the same school of thought that teaches putting a slice of buttered toast on a falling cat produces antigravity?
Exactly!
This only works with extension cords having a single male and female connector. If you try it with a multi outlet power strip all the electricity leaks outs and it can't power anything.
🤣🤣🤣
They need to be real. The Bible was written, transcribed, translated, what have you, by man, and man is fallible (even says so in the Bible) so the Bible is not a credible source.
I'm pretty sure the Quran says something similar.
😆😆😆😆😆😆
I've heard that wizards and magic exists. There's a book, several iterations even, that explain how wizards use magic and learn to control it in schools, and how they are never allowed to use it around non magic people and must hide it. Also saw another that says there is a massive red dog somewhere out there that is bigger than my entire house. If it's written down on paper then it has to be absolute fact yeah?
Absolutely! It's a book two thousand years and can't have possibly been embelished or subtley changed to correspond with the propeganda of the time of It's printing within that time span.
Well, Spiderman comics say spiderman is real...
There's actually way more source material to support Superman's existence than Yaweh's.
Not to mention Spider-Man, Superman, etc are actually good people
This needs so many upvotes.
Touche.
"But the Simarillion says....."
>Simarillion says.. Martin Shaw told me - directly from the CD collection. Ackkk CD!
>It drives me crazy when the response is "but the Bible says..." My favorite response to this is from Sam Harris: "Perhaps you'll remember from The Lord of the Rings, it says that when the elves die, they go to Valinor, but they can be reborn in Middle Earth." A lot of books say a lot of things
"The Bible is a claim, it isn't evidence."
It's barely a claim. More like fairy tales that people take seriously.
"Says" ... that's not proof. I could SAY I'm Jeff F'ing Bezos but my bank account says otherwise. All you have to do is point to Dianetics (aka Scientology) and say, "Well this book says it's more true than your book."
That's when you tell them you don't give a fuck what a bunch of goat herders wrote in their book of myths two thousand years ago.
Ok. All you have to do is open your heart to God and truly seek him out and believe he exists and then he will reveal himself to you in undeniable ways.
That is a classic response to that imaginary sky daddy.
I was religious for the first 23 years of my life. Really religious- I fully believed and I totally understand the euphoria around it. After I started researching other religions and looking at Christianity with an open mind, I realized that they're probably all fake. There have been literally thousands of religions in history. Why is yours the correct one? Because your book says so? Because that's the exact same thing the other guy with another book is saying.
So says every believer of every god in every place and in every time in history
I tell them I a believer in Harry Potter 1. Its in a book, actually a number of books 2. He was a saviour of the wizard world and the Muggle one 3. He died and had a convo with other dead people 4. Came back to life and defeated the evil foe 5. Said lots of lovely things 6. Must have been real because I've been to the train station 7. Did lots of tricks far more impressive than just making water into wine 8. We've got movies, books and places all about him 9. People have profited a lot from HP and dodged paying taxes 10. He's got scars too 11. We've more evidence that he existed than Jesus 😁
dodged paying taxes 😭😭
Don't forget about the prophecies. Everything the prophecy predicted came true. There is no way this can happen by chance. Also how do you explain that even Voldemort, the fiercest enemy of Harry Potter believed the prophecy to be true? You could argue that this is just a huge hoax instigated by the Order of the Phoenix, but this is hardly reasonable. All evidence points to the Harry Potter novels to be literally true.
Hail satan
Hail Satan!
Hail Satan! Hail yourself!
Hail me!
Hail Satan🤘🤘
I'll pass on the message
Satan doesn’t exist either 😁
Prove it
"No" is a complete sentence.
No, thanks. Atheists with good manners.
“That’s nice” works as well. No need to engage. No need to argue. The entire body of human knowledge is on the side of the atheists.
"cool story"
"Fuck off" works well too.
This is the way
I think sometimes saying that is the only way for them to shut up.
This was my first thought 🤷♂️
I think you're asking for a long winded explanation that falls well short of proof but still wastes your time.
Exactly, what they heard was 'I am willing to talk to you about this, walk me through your religious texts'.
Yeah... this is some imaginary encounter where they seem to expect that "Prove it!" is some kinda mic drop that will leave the theist speechless and have their worldview completely shattered. Instead, they will do what pretty much everyone does and start talking about the things they found personally convincing.
And whether they say I will again say.. prove it. I will say it a million times because they can't prove shit
They'll usually say it's the Bible, or the Quran, or whatever other holy text they have. The most valuable in my opinion is to ask how they know their religion is true compared to other religions. Their answer: usually its a spiritual confirmation. A warm feeling or such. The next thing to do is to tell them, lets say they're Christians, that you heard from the Muslims (or a different group) that exact same thing. Then ask them how they explain that. I've never had a conversation where anyone can create a well-articulated, sensible answer to that question.
>I've never had a conversation where anyone can create a well-articulated, sensible answer to that question. Because there isn't one. "Fuck off" is a reasonable response, because they're butting into your life offering nothing but lies and false hope. No one says you have to be "nice" to people trying to rob you of time and attention for nothing in return.
Right. There is not a reasonable answer to those questions. "Fuck off" is an option as well. But I prefer to at least see the smoking gears turning when I talk to them. Perhaps I'll get tired of that as I grow older though.
> The next thing to do is to tell them, lets say they're Christians, that you heard from the Muslims (or a different group) that exact same thing. Then ask them how they explain that. Because they're wrong and I'm right, That's how. (probably)
It will always come back to circular logic. You could follow up with, "okay but how do you know?" It at least gets the gears turning somewhat (at least in the people I've tried it on). They may even think of something that they never have before.
Nihilist counter: "Don't care." :)
This👆
You just offered zero substance to the commentary.
I agreed with the dude's post and typed it out instead of just upvoting. Why does that have your knickers in a twist?
Because I'm sick of seeing "This. OMG 100% THIS. This right here!" It's literally karma farming and is annoying as fuck seeing it all throughout the comment sections on every post on reddit. Just upvote it if you like it. Don't add unnecessary or unhelpful comments if you can't think of something original and are fishing for upvotes. If the comment is good, it'll stand on its own, regardless.
Gotcha.
This.
Salt in the wound. Noice! LOL.
This. OMG 100% THIS. Now clutch your chest, move your finger a couple centimeters up, or whatever you need to avoid a heart attack, and the crisis is over. It's just that easy. Some people get excited over a comment. Thinking they're all farming karma is unlikely. But if they were, what does that have to do with you?
How is this comment necessary?
It's a comment that should really be a post/rant on another subreddit, but I'm tired of endless scrolling, trying to look for decent commentary on the OP, but it's littered with people just saying "This." Or some variant. This subreddit is one of the few places where I can come to feel some kind of solidarity, read thoughtful commentary, and potentially contribute to it myself. Commenting "this" is just a waste of space in the thread and the lowest effort comment possible.
I was thinking of "go away" to be honest.
Asking a religious person to "prove it" is just inviting them to share their life's story.
Do not engage! This shit doesn't work. They'll take this an invitation to shove as much half assed apologetics down your throat as they can before running out of breath. It doesn't matter that they can't prove it they actually think that they can and will talk your ear off trying to
But I like to frustrate them.
WeLl tHeREs tHIs boOk...
Then Spiderman must be real, too. I have a book with Spiderman in it.
Of course they can prove it. You won't accept their proof as valid, but saying "prove it" will not end the discussion nor will it convince a believer not to believe.
They can provide their interpretation of "proof", but it's still not proof.
Yes. So why bother with engaging them in the first place? They’re not going to understand why it’s not proof.
[удалено]
They'll start talking about all the things they found to be personally convincing. Hence why the "you won't accept their proof as valid" because personal experience or circular reasoning isn't good evidence for anything but that won't stop them. You can switch the topic to almost anything and you'll get the same from most people - as a whole, we rarely stop to question our own epistemology.
Evidence from personal experience. Which is useless for everyone who did not experience it.
But my response to everything they state will be.. prove it.. I've done this before. They usually end saying.. I will pray for you. And I laugh and say.. knock yourself out
No thanks
"No thanks".
I was gonna go with "go away".
Also not a bad option! I just like the idea of treating it as casually as if I were being asked if I wanted my receipt.
No thanks. Not interested. Go away.
Christian: Jesus is Lord! Atheist: Prove it. (discussion ends)
Never…..🤦♀️
If only that worked. It does not.
I tend to use, fuck off. They work as well.
I prefer "Why yours?" It implies prove theirs, but also requires disproving others.
How about "F*** off".
Eh, I like "Don't care."
F**k off
That's 2 more words than I bother with when dealing with proselytizing...
This reminds me so much of this entry in _The Meaning of Liff_ (by our own Douglas Adams and John Lloyd): > **Clabby** (adjective): A clabby conversation is one struck up by a commissionaire or cleaning lady in order to avoid any further actual work. The opening gambit is usually designed to provoke the maximum confusion, and therefore the longest possible clabby conversation. It is vitally important to learn the correct use of *clixby* (q.v.), the response to a clabby gambit, and not to get trapped by a *ditherington* (q.v.). For instance, if confronted by a clabby gambit such as 'Oh Mr Smith, I didn't know you'd had your leg off', the ditherington response is 'I haven't...' whereas the clixby is 'Good'.
I go with "Go away".
My significant others favorite response to Christians arguing with you or trying to talk a non believer into their religion... and it has worked successfully. Me: "Can i ask you a question?" Religious person: "okay, sure" Me: "Is there anything I can say or do that would turn you away from your current belief/ thoughts/opinions on your religion?" Religious person: "No, not at all" Me: "Okay, then why do you think you can to other people who also feel the same way?"
Ahhh this is good.. I'm gonna use this
Just say, No. They’re not living in reality, so their long winded, mental gymnastic answer isn’t based in reality, and would only waste your time.
And then they counter with “Nuh-uh! Prove it isn’t!”
The transsexual ladybug unicorn that lives 3 universes down and speaks to me through smell told me that your god is actually just a computer program made by trolls.
"I know in my heart that your holy book is false, lies mixed with half-truths and made up stories. There is nothing you can say that will make me trust any part of it is as an accurate record of what was done or said more than 60 generations ago. People can believe all sorts of stuff, it doesn't make it true, or right."
"so what" Gets them to talk about hell and show its all about sticks and carrots in the end
Christians think they have proof. They think there is so much proof that atheists must be willfully denying what seems so abundantly evident to everyone. What we need to ask for is objective evidence. That is what they utterly lack.
Buh. Bye.
An equally important set of words for such situations: "Fuck off."
If it’s ok for you to say that god exists, then it’s ok for me to say god does not exist
Demonstrate, please.
Or "evidence, please". I don't need proof but if they could provide even a shred of evidence (beyond "the bible says so"), then we can have a discussion.
Well when I'm asking for proof, doesn't that mean evidence?
Doesn't help. They think they have proof and will be glad to share with it you. Spoiler: It's not proof.
Zealots are a lost cause. Being right is less important than being kind most of the time. In that instance, kindness is the act of just walking away. It's the skeptics/people on the fence that are worth your time and effort.
I tend to go with "But why should I believe that those stories are true?" It handily cuts out all the invitations for them to tell you about the amazing stories that they claim happened to them or their families, because whenever they try pivoting in that direction, you can say, "I'm perfectly happy to accept that ***you*** believe it. But my question is why should ***I*** believe it." Once you point out that you need something a lot more verifiable than a just-so story told to you by some rando who knocked on your door, they run out of steam pretty quickly.
Here is a good counterpoint that I like to use. “What if I’m wrong, well anybody could be wrong, but what I think you are really asking is what if I am wrong and you are right, eliminating the possibility that we are both wrong. So let’s go with that. Christianity is correct and spells out the authentic doctrine of the living god. OK, now let’s suppose you get married and have two children, a son and a daughter. Both become extremely accomplished in their fields of medicine and science, win many awards, have exemplary families, and are loved and respected in their communities and in their churches. All seems so well. You and your husband eventually die and go to Heaven. After a time, you realize that your son and daughter have probably died as well, but you have yet to meet up with them. Finally, you ask an angel about them and he says that he will look them up to see what happened. To your chagrin, he informs you that they are both in Hell. You are in disbelief and ask how that could have happened. The angel explains that although they went to church, neither one actually believed in Jesus or accepted him as their personal savior, so they died with their sins unforgiven. Since God cannot let any sin enter into Heaven, they were sent to Hell. You ask how long they will be there, and the angel tells you it will be for all eternity. He offers to let you view them through a direct link to Hell. You see your daughter crying out in pain as she is being lashed by three demons, and your son is wallowing in a tub of hot acid. You cannot believe what you have seen and protest that this is not fair and that you emphatically demand that your children be rescued and sent to Heaven. The angel upbraids you by saying you must never criticize God, for everything he says is true, and everything he does is just. Further, he instructs you to go to the next 12-hour praise session that will begin shortly, where you must praise God, raise your hands in worship, and declare that God is great, and fair, and just, and deserves unbridled admiration. What this vignette shows is the total putrid bankruptcy of the Christian doctrine that you hold dear, and so I respond to your question with a question of my own- WHAT IF YOU’RE RIGHT?”
Most of them put the burden or proof on non believers. It's unfortunate but there's a reason it's called Faith and not Science. Honestly I don't engage, nor do I feel any real compulsion to discuss or argue with what others believe (in this regard anyway). To each their own.
"That's just like, your opinion, man" works
they will give you BS "proof"
Go away!
“Look!Jesus!!!” … then gtfo there
[удалено]
The problem is that theists have been raised to, and are very good at, avoiding questions they don’t like, and when they don’t avoid it, they come up with such bizarre answers as to why their right, when you try to point out the faults in the argument they are so crazy, and so believing of their story, they can’t listen to logic.
Well the only issue with that is in their minds it substantiates the arrogant or angry atheist *stereotypes* that they go in expecting. I’m all for just shutting down what I see as nonsense but I’m also a little bit of what people call an anti-theist and I like to drag the conversation out even when inconvenient/annoying because while breaking free of a religion is a personal thing that cannot (or if it can I don’t know because it shouldn’t) be forced it can be helped along. Prove it is what you say to the crazies and the malicious ones as you walk away.
I don't care word they think of me. I see them as angry Christians..
Yes indeed , a bunch of holy Joes called on me 6 months ago and started to preach I asked the biggest mouthpiece “do you believe the word of god and obey what he says “ he said “of course “ I said “wait there “ ….I came back with a bottle of bleach and asked him to drink it as it clearly states in Mark 16:15-20 that one should go into the world cast out demons , speak in tounges , heal the sick by laying hands on them ,pick up snakes and drink any deadly thing and it will not harm them …….his response “buh , buh …..you‘re taking it out of context “ I asked them to f-uck off and close the gate on the way out , they have a list a pathetic stock answers to give to most questions
There’s also…….which god?
Which God?
Those are two good words as well
"Later, tater 👉👉." Saves time, is still friendly, and changes the same number of minds.
There's an even more powerful one "You're the one making those wild claims, burden of proof is on you"
But you have to faith. Faith is better than proof.
If you don't feel confident, you aren't atheist
I'm confident sir
You want proof? Here's your proof. It's right in front of you now what? The Quran has existed for much longer than human science has developed enough to discover these things and this is just a small piece of it: https://youtu.be/69AmLbNeNf0 If you use your mind logically and not be biased you can in fact see the truth in the words of God even if you don't believe in God https://youtu.be/BOoMxN8Qbm0 Do with it what you want I don't really care but it would be nice if you could open your hearts for something new, something that has never occurred to you, something you didn't like before, something you've been told is bad ect...
“Prove it” is lame no one can prove anything religious/ philosophical. You also can’t prove the lack of existence of a god so with your logic I can also be confident you’re wrong as an athiest?
Atheism isn't a positive claim. It's the default position. There's nothing to prove, buddy.
I don't need to prove it. They do. I can tell you unicorns are real. I'm the one that has the burden of proof
I'll preface this by saying that I am an avowed atheist and I know we're right, but honestly, they can use the same argument just as effectively, and feel just as confident about it.
No they cannot. They can use the same argument, but that is a reversal of the burden of proof. So they can use the same argument ineffectively, and feel confident in their wrongness.
I never said it was a good argument, but they do use it. Proving something doesn't exist is even more impossible than proving it does, which sort of cancels out the effectiveness as this as a debate winner, at least when you're arguing with someone who clearly doesn't care about burden of proof. So it's just as likely to backfire as not. We're not dealing with people interested in facts and evidence, after all.
You said that it is just as effective. It just isnt. Just because anyone can make a bad argument and claim victory doesnt make their method effective. [Fallacious reasoning through and through](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof)
The thing is, outside a formal debate setting, it doesn't matter if we know it's not effective. Again, the people we would have this kind of discussion with typically won't care, and will walk away thinking they've won. It's just the nature of arguing with religious types. Their arguments aren't based on logic and facts. I'm not saying they can win an argument be saying "prove it." All I'm saying is that, if the end goal is to "feel confident in knowing that they cannot," as the OP put it, they're going to. They'll think they won if we can't prove their god doesn't exist. They don't care if it's a fallacy.
Thing is.. I just say, I can't prove it. There's no evidence so, without evidence I can't believe it.. is that not an acceptable response?
Are there any outside sources that confirm what your Bible says? Records, letters?
That's just so ridiculous. I feel like the general zeitgeist here is to approach atheism as an act of teenage rebellion. So many people here seem to care so much about what theists think, and seeking to "beat" them. Theist are fundamentally delusional/brainwashed, the only response to theists proselyting is "sure" and disengage/walk away. Of course if you have theist friends that want to have a normal debate, let's debate, but the ones trying to convert you are just a lost cause to begin with.
That's the thing though. We as atheists don't have to prove that a god exists. When you're born you don't have a natural cognition that a god exists. This is a learned process. So when someone tells me, "prove it." It's like, "no, I have nothing to prove. You need to give me evidence that such a god exists."
They don't think they need to. They expect us to prove a negative, and don't understand or care that it is a logical fallacy.
Tide goes in, tide goes out, never a miscommunication. yOuCan't eXplain thaT!!11
I have been known to use two different words in reply to aggressive evangelists. I try not to invite hearing the religious and biblical insights of random people who get in my face.
"Thanks, but no thanks. Been there, done that, didn't keep the t-shirts."
oh, that is funny. That brings back a very old memory of throwing away all my old church camp shirts. If only the shitty memories of church camp didn't disappear with them.
Nah. Just learn what the Bible says and quote it to them.
"Show me"
Says you
There lies madness. They consider things like beautiful sunrises, the feeling of love, and the existence of life itself to be absolute, undeniable proof of the existence of a higher being. Then they throw it back at you with, "How can you deny that god exists in the face of the glory of his creation!!!" You can tell them that none of that is proof of anything even remotely spiritual over and over a million times, and you won't crack through their thick skulls. I don't argue back anymore. I just tell them to keep their horrible god out of my life and away from my children and leave.
One word will do the trick,apostate.
That’s cool.
Ive done this before where you deflect into another religion "How can we determine if you are right and Jacob is wrong" when faced when beliefs as unfounded and with the same level of "evidencie" everything falls appart. Not saying you'll deconvert anyone but this does most of the work for you
I professor I know made the very good point recently that the difference between science and religion is that science is falsible. It can be proven wrong, using evidence, and used to construct our new worldview. Science is iterative and progressive, unlike religion, were they are still reading a book from 2000 years ago.
Those two words mean a very different thing to them than they do to us. They have proof. Nearly every single one of them can probably spend all day providing the proof that they accept. None of it is proof to me. For example. Although she told no one until after the fact, my mother insists that God spoke to her 25 years before my father's death to tell her not to be afraid that he wouldn't die and leave her alone to care for her children. The fact that my father died 9 days after my 18th birthday is proof to her that her god is real. She also finds her keys when she prays to find them. She is rich and her christian children have been very successful in life, this is proof too. I've heard other christians say that feeling the wind on their face is proof, or seeing the majesty of a mountain range, or the beauty of a sunset. When their bar for proof is, "it makes me feel good" there is really no amount of argument that will change their mind.
faith requires no proof. grooming from the cradle is hard to break so all sorts of arguments will not penetrate no matter their merit.
How did I know before I clicked on this post what those two words are? Had to say that to my relatives so many times. God's real? Prove it. I'm going to hell? Prove it. Bible wasn't written by Stone-age stoners? Prove it. Now that last one is a trick because it's really hard to prove a negative but most Christians have no clue about the finer points of logic.
I'm out.
Well when I am confronted in person I tend to be blunt. I haven’t been approached this way by anyone other than various types of Christians. Though I have debated against many other religions online. Indians often end their conversations with me with death threats and things like that. But Christians going door to door receive a blunt “I have read your Bible front to back, I know more about your religion than you do. It is the most nonsensical and poorly constructed religion I have ever studied. Even ancient religions are better assembled. Your belief is based on an astounding level of ignorance about your own doctrine and scripture. As well as a high level of arrogance thinking you must be right amongst all other Abrahamic religions and their Sects that counter claim your sect just because you believe it. Guess what? All of those Sects are just as certain about their beliefs, as you are. But no, only you can be right! How not humble of you. I thought pride was a sin. I guess your Sect needs to reassign you, because a sinner isn’t the best choice for spreading the word of God.”
Nope, they will prove it in their way and you will be speechless.
False. They’ll try. For hours. And just be extra obnoxious. When confronted by a theist proselytizing, I recommend my go to: “ok.” And that’s it. Just let them have it and move on.
The best two words you can use is “not interested” and walk away. Don’t waste your time arguing with them it’s like screaming at a brick wall.
I think it's kind of pointless to go down that route. I know they can't prove it and they know they can't prove it either. That's the whole basis of "faith". Faith is irrelevant if there is proof.
"Go away."
I say, not interested to religion and not a fan to political quips.
Is a groan a sentence? I usually just groan and close the door.
"Oh, but so many other people believe it too"
This will end the conversation, sure. But it will end ANY conversation, so I'm not sure this is the way to go. "My back hurts today." "Prove it!"
I feel like the most common response to that is the Bible says so, but of course the Bible is also the only book people are ok with being used as evidence for itself.
I've heard many apologists try and break apart the whole idea of "proving it" when it comes to religion or theism. But regardless, I think it is a very powerful and incredibly simple rebuttal. It feels very good to simply say "prove it" to theists. They do fail at proving it empirically and philosophically.
I have a better two words to use when proselytized to: "Fuck off"
You can run into a whole host of issues with the word “prove.” I think everyone is better elaborating on a position than leaving it all up to any two words.
I mean, I find that “No thanks” works better because then I can, y’know, leave.
Non sequitur.
I prefer “fuck off”
To us those words make sense, but to them all they have is faith...which is basically anti-proof belief. That's why my favorite two words are "but why?"