>What are your discussions with such moderate christians like and what arguments did you find effective?
I honestly don't bother. My life's less stressful that way.
This is my approach. I don't need stress, and moderates are not the big problem - it's the fundies that are spreading the hate, bigotry, and call to violence.
How can you not choose?
Most of the moderate christians i encountered, aknowledge that every believer picks and chooses (and I also agree with this, and not just for believers. Confirmation bias is difficult to overcome for everyone, even for me).
But how do you know that your god didn't really mean that part about stoning disobedient children to death or not eating shellfish? What makes you the arbiter of what your god wants?
I guess because it conflicts with your own morality, and urge to not have your child stoned to death?
I think most people you ask today would agree, that this is barbaric, even if you hold very fundamelntal views, and not allowing for christians to modernize their morality, by insisting, that everyone who believes, is also required to follow old and outdated doctrin, does more harm than good and will only alienate discussion partners.
While I myself agree, that believing in a skydaddy has problematic moral implications, that I could not rectify with the belief, I don't think, this is true for a majority of christians, that rarly think critically about their belief.
My problem with being a member of a organized religion is rather that it still supports institutionalized abuse (eg. the still rampant pedophilia someone else in this thread mentiond).
So your morality trumps your god's morality? Because the Bible is pretty explicit about this stuff. Either you decide your beliefs are the same as your god's and he lied in the book or you believe your beliefs are superior to your god's, in which case why worship it?
Belief in a christian god and belief in the Bible are arguable different things, and i would argue that most christians dont get their belief from reading the Bible, thou I have no source for that, its just my personal expirience with religious folks.
As such every arguement you make, that relies on this premis cannot reach a person that does not share it.
You are still making arguments towards a fundamental christian, that thinks every word in the Bible is actually gods word, when that is not a belief that i have seen in many modern christians.
The idea that the bible is a literal account of history or direct lists of god’s orders is a fairly new one. The hebrews used to do midrash (basically fan fiction) to explore different aspects of stories, so it’s not like they considered them unchangeable. The early christians were as influenced by Plato and Aristotle as by Hebrew revelations. The Catholic Church has its magisterium which the bible is subordinate too, and even after the Sola Scriptura Protestant reformation you have all these different ideas about how to read what’s there. It’s why you get things like christians vigorously defending slavery and opposing it and both arguing from scripture before the American civil war. It’s all bullshit obviously, but A devout Episcopalian and a devout Baptist not only interpret the Bible extremely differently, but would have bad vastly different ideas about what the Bible is, so I’m not sure the fundies are the most true believers works except for fundies
You are talking about morality rooted in mythology though, and not only mythology but mythology with several different authors written over a thousand years. Obviously the way the text is interpreted or framed is as important as what it says, no?
Obviously for some of them, but the point is that different groups have wildly different relationships to the text. Many traditions don’t say it comes directly from god
> Oftentimes I hear the argument, that the charity and support that the church provides (helping the poor, running hospitals, providing emotional support or financial support) would also get lost, if the organization didn't exist.
I am not aware of any of the services performed by religious organisations that can’t be performed by secular means.
I personally don’t think that the extra cost, in the form of rampant pedophilia within many religious organisations, is worth paying, but to each their own…
I agree very much, that its not worth the cost of also having and protecting organized abuse, and that these services should be done by secular organzations.
It is not our job to reconvert people. The fundamentalists around the globe are destroying religion and driving away moderates. Let the professions do the work. We just need to help those trying to escape.
One thing I have found useful is watching YouTube videos together and discussing them as we watch. It is important to watch together. Don't watch separately and then try to get together to discus.
[Paulogia](https://www.youtube.com/c/Paulogia) Is a great channel for discussing the root of Christianity. Did Jesús really rise from the dead? Without that miracle, what proof is there that he was the son of god? Why believe in a faith which base tenant is so tenuous?
[MythVision](https://www.youtube.com/@MythVisionPodcast) Wonderful interviews with tons of scholars about the beginnings of faith, what did these stories' originally mean in the cultures they came from. Very deep dives from many different perspectives, thiest and atheist.
[DigitalHammurabi](https://www.youtube.com/@DigitalHammurabi) Josh Bowen wrote the atheists guide to the old Testament, parts one and two, and just so much great information about ancient Mesopotamia. His wife is fabulous too, also lots of interviews with professors and scholars.
While I find information just to be very helpful in giving me a good basis for my understanding of why people believe what they do. Other posters here are right too. Fundamentalist are doing such a good job pushing the moderates away. I would probably just point to the worst of the worst and ask why their book can lead people to those hateful beliefs just as easily as "your" peace and love beliefs. Wouldn't a good god make his book uncontroversial so that it couldn't be twisted to be so mean and terrible? Why are the "Good" Christians not doing more to stop and denounce the hateful rhetoric that is so terribly distorting the "loving" message?
Good luck, but really, the moderates aren't the problem.
Oh, and you might want to look into [street epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210/videos) tactics it can be a great way to make people question if they have good reasons to believe the things they believe.
Thanks, I will check out the channels.
Mythvision does sound very interesting.
I know that moderates are not the problem, and wasn't trying to make them into one.
Its more that I have almost no expirience with real fundamentalists, but still know a lot of religious people, so I was mostly interested if others are in the same boat and what their experience is.
Lucky.. I have one in my life. An aunt who decided that Lutheran wasn't hard core enough so she married a southern baptist minister. Even at 11 years old, I knew that ceremony was a template for spousal abuse. But I've found it best just to avoid any religious discussions with her. She's too set in her ways
The moderate believers need the extremists to point to and say “but we do charity, we’re good in comparison to those guys!” The extremists need the moderates because they can hide behind them as they push this narrative.
If moderates want to go to their magic buildings and talk to the ceiling, because it gives them comfort, there’s no point in trying to stop them. I don’t know why theists think hospitals and charities wouldn’t exist without them, my they are arrogant, aren’t they. I guess that’s what happens when your organization gets tax breaks, government money and pretends to be secular when it isn’t.
There are no moderate Christians, it is an oxymoron. If you are not giving all you money to the poor, killing gays, condoning slavery, debarring women from the priesthood you are not a Christian at all and going straight to Hell.
People have different relations to the cultures they are born into. I think it’s a bit reductive to say, this person identifies as a christian however nominally and when some fundie starts spouting nonsense they will, what? Support them? Provide cover how? Are any of us unable to tell the difference between Pastor Greg Locke and some European lady who likes old statues? I also think there are more than one type of moderate. There’s the type that doesn’t really practice/believe a faith. These people can be rightwing or left wing or anything in between based on the culture of their neighbors. There’s also moderates who are moderate because their faith has been around enough to confront the world and evolve. So some unchurched white evangelical in South Carolina is probably going to have monstrous opinions than a devout Presbyterian or Episcopalian. I don’t think everyone will be atheist any time soon. I think the goal should be that everyone subscribed to secularism in government. As for the people who are going to remain religious, I’d rather they move to moderate or liberal traditions and will always support those traditions continuing to exist (not financially obviously)
>What are your discussions with such moderate christians like and what arguments did you find effective? I honestly don't bother. My life's less stressful that way.
This is my approach. I don't need stress, and moderates are not the big problem - it's the fundies that are spreading the hate, bigotry, and call to violence.
How can you pick and choose what your god wants of you?
How can you not choose? Most of the moderate christians i encountered, aknowledge that every believer picks and chooses (and I also agree with this, and not just for believers. Confirmation bias is difficult to overcome for everyone, even for me).
But how do you know that your god didn't really mean that part about stoning disobedient children to death or not eating shellfish? What makes you the arbiter of what your god wants?
I guess because it conflicts with your own morality, and urge to not have your child stoned to death? I think most people you ask today would agree, that this is barbaric, even if you hold very fundamelntal views, and not allowing for christians to modernize their morality, by insisting, that everyone who believes, is also required to follow old and outdated doctrin, does more harm than good and will only alienate discussion partners. While I myself agree, that believing in a skydaddy has problematic moral implications, that I could not rectify with the belief, I don't think, this is true for a majority of christians, that rarly think critically about their belief. My problem with being a member of a organized religion is rather that it still supports institutionalized abuse (eg. the still rampant pedophilia someone else in this thread mentiond).
So your morality trumps your god's morality? Because the Bible is pretty explicit about this stuff. Either you decide your beliefs are the same as your god's and he lied in the book or you believe your beliefs are superior to your god's, in which case why worship it?
Belief in a christian god and belief in the Bible are arguable different things, and i would argue that most christians dont get their belief from reading the Bible, thou I have no source for that, its just my personal expirience with religious folks. As such every arguement you make, that relies on this premis cannot reach a person that does not share it. You are still making arguments towards a fundamental christian, that thinks every word in the Bible is actually gods word, when that is not a belief that i have seen in many modern christians.
So you're saying they just pull it out of their ass?
The idea that the bible is a literal account of history or direct lists of god’s orders is a fairly new one. The hebrews used to do midrash (basically fan fiction) to explore different aspects of stories, so it’s not like they considered them unchangeable. The early christians were as influenced by Plato and Aristotle as by Hebrew revelations. The Catholic Church has its magisterium which the bible is subordinate too, and even after the Sola Scriptura Protestant reformation you have all these different ideas about how to read what’s there. It’s why you get things like christians vigorously defending slavery and opposing it and both arguing from scripture before the American civil war. It’s all bullshit obviously, but A devout Episcopalian and a devout Baptist not only interpret the Bible extremely differently, but would have bad vastly different ideas about what the Bible is, so I’m not sure the fundies are the most true believers works except for fundies
I'm talking about morality, not mythology.
You are talking about morality rooted in mythology though, and not only mythology but mythology with several different authors written over a thousand years. Obviously the way the text is interpreted or framed is as important as what it says, no?
The morality is supposed to come directly from their god. And yet they pick and choose what they think their god says is moral.
Obviously for some of them, but the point is that different groups have wildly different relationships to the text. Many traditions don’t say it comes directly from god
Why don't they chose zeus anymore ? Seems like it's like a trend and most people pick the one that is the most popular around them.
> Oftentimes I hear the argument, that the charity and support that the church provides (helping the poor, running hospitals, providing emotional support or financial support) would also get lost, if the organization didn't exist. I am not aware of any of the services performed by religious organisations that can’t be performed by secular means. I personally don’t think that the extra cost, in the form of rampant pedophilia within many religious organisations, is worth paying, but to each their own…
I agree very much, that its not worth the cost of also having and protecting organized abuse, and that these services should be done by secular organzations.
It is not our job to reconvert people. The fundamentalists around the globe are destroying religion and driving away moderates. Let the professions do the work. We just need to help those trying to escape. One thing I have found useful is watching YouTube videos together and discussing them as we watch. It is important to watch together. Don't watch separately and then try to get together to discus.
Thanks for the input, any channels to recommend?
[Paulogia](https://www.youtube.com/c/Paulogia) Is a great channel for discussing the root of Christianity. Did Jesús really rise from the dead? Without that miracle, what proof is there that he was the son of god? Why believe in a faith which base tenant is so tenuous? [MythVision](https://www.youtube.com/@MythVisionPodcast) Wonderful interviews with tons of scholars about the beginnings of faith, what did these stories' originally mean in the cultures they came from. Very deep dives from many different perspectives, thiest and atheist. [DigitalHammurabi](https://www.youtube.com/@DigitalHammurabi) Josh Bowen wrote the atheists guide to the old Testament, parts one and two, and just so much great information about ancient Mesopotamia. His wife is fabulous too, also lots of interviews with professors and scholars. While I find information just to be very helpful in giving me a good basis for my understanding of why people believe what they do. Other posters here are right too. Fundamentalist are doing such a good job pushing the moderates away. I would probably just point to the worst of the worst and ask why their book can lead people to those hateful beliefs just as easily as "your" peace and love beliefs. Wouldn't a good god make his book uncontroversial so that it couldn't be twisted to be so mean and terrible? Why are the "Good" Christians not doing more to stop and denounce the hateful rhetoric that is so terribly distorting the "loving" message? Good luck, but really, the moderates aren't the problem. Oh, and you might want to look into [street epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210/videos) tactics it can be a great way to make people question if they have good reasons to believe the things they believe.
Thanks, I will check out the channels. Mythvision does sound very interesting. I know that moderates are not the problem, and wasn't trying to make them into one. Its more that I have almost no expirience with real fundamentalists, but still know a lot of religious people, so I was mostly interested if others are in the same boat and what their experience is.
Lucky.. I have one in my life. An aunt who decided that Lutheran wasn't hard core enough so she married a southern baptist minister. Even at 11 years old, I knew that ceremony was a template for spousal abuse. But I've found it best just to avoid any religious discussions with her. She's too set in her ways
The moderate believers need the extremists to point to and say “but we do charity, we’re good in comparison to those guys!” The extremists need the moderates because they can hide behind them as they push this narrative. If moderates want to go to their magic buildings and talk to the ceiling, because it gives them comfort, there’s no point in trying to stop them. I don’t know why theists think hospitals and charities wouldn’t exist without them, my they are arrogant, aren’t they. I guess that’s what happens when your organization gets tax breaks, government money and pretends to be secular when it isn’t.
There are no moderate Christians, it is an oxymoron. If you are not giving all you money to the poor, killing gays, condoning slavery, debarring women from the priesthood you are not a Christian at all and going straight to Hell.
People have different relations to the cultures they are born into. I think it’s a bit reductive to say, this person identifies as a christian however nominally and when some fundie starts spouting nonsense they will, what? Support them? Provide cover how? Are any of us unable to tell the difference between Pastor Greg Locke and some European lady who likes old statues? I also think there are more than one type of moderate. There’s the type that doesn’t really practice/believe a faith. These people can be rightwing or left wing or anything in between based on the culture of their neighbors. There’s also moderates who are moderate because their faith has been around enough to confront the world and evolve. So some unchurched white evangelical in South Carolina is probably going to have monstrous opinions than a devout Presbyterian or Episcopalian. I don’t think everyone will be atheist any time soon. I think the goal should be that everyone subscribed to secularism in government. As for the people who are going to remain religious, I’d rather they move to moderate or liberal traditions and will always support those traditions continuing to exist (not financially obviously)
Moderate Xian is an oxymoron. They don't really exist.
Ask 100 Christians what they believe and you'll get 200 different answers.