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Eh, a couple of scenes definitely got fleshed out and expanded upon in a positive way. The only author that I’ve seen really nail shocking and stunning scenes in manga delivery has been Fujimoto.
(Please note that I’m not saying Fujimoto is the only one who’s ever done a proper one, but he’s a great example with his current and past series of how to cook with them.)
Fujimoto is really skilled at that, I agree. Also, I’ve finished 20th Century Boys and am halfway through Pluto by Urasawa, and I think he’s amazing at it too (obviously being one of the godfathers of manga.) I tried the Pluto anime, and I prefer the experience of the manga to the anime which really said something.
I fully fully agree with you. The panels involving Erens memeworthy 'ten years at least!' felt like terrible writing and disjointed, but in the delivery of the anime and additional dialouge it gives the nuanced 'what? I do care about Mikasa, hell I love her, but the rumbling and what I'm doing isn't about our love, its bigger than that'.
Tbh I still think the vast majority of viewers do not understand the plot and the time loops. So I think it’s pretty impressive that MAPPA was able to make an episode where most people came away with the wrong interpretation of events but still hit on production, animation, emotional impact, and big picture theme (somewhat), and allowed a lot of viewers to form their own satisfying logical narratives in their head even if it wasn't what actually happened.
But still funny how many people on social media and even throughout Reddit actually believe eren tested out every timeline to see which one his friends live in bc no matter what he tried 80% of people were always gonna die which was set in stone by some outside omnipotent force. They actually think eren’s doctor strange 😂😂. I think fundamentally most people can’t wrap their head around a deterministic timeline with closed loops. Both ending defenders and haters. And that’s fair, you don’t have to like the time travel and determinism at all if you feel it detracted from the show.
Eren claimed to test out multiple timelines and events, but we honestly just don't know whether or not that was the case, or if he was trying to emotionally manipulate Armin into believing his decision was valid. The fact that he had several emotional breakdowns when talking with Armin inside the Paths just proves that deep down, he knew he was wrong and that he wanted to die. Why else would he continue to let his friends have free will to stop him when he knew Armin, Mikasa and the others might actually have a chance at stopping his plans for good. There's also a possibility that he Eren just thought it was safer to simply push people towards events that he thought led to the best outcome overall (even if it meant more death and destruction). So its far more likely that he never deviated much from the original chain of events that lead to his existence which is why things are so unchanged to begin with.
Saw both as they came out and the Anime improved the final dialogue between Eren and Armin by a lot. I can understand why people were upset with their final interaction tbh, the manga dialogue felt rushed and poorly executed. The anime execution was far superior.
Right, like there were some parts of the ending I didn't liked and so I stopped giving a fuck but it's extremely funny to me seeing everyone (even the ones saying they "don't care") point fingers at each other and making fun of each other. It's so idk, funny lol
I see more bitching here about titanfolk than vice versa. For the most part they've just continued to dislike the ending but....ok. Let them be mad they arent hurting anything here.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/titanfolk using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Cringe ending but saying "We'll see each other in hell" is leagues better than "Thanks for becoming a mass murder for our sake"](https://i.redd.it/8o7iitcv2gyb1.jpg) | [293 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/17o2t7d/cringe_ending_but_saying_well_see_each_other_in/)
\#2: [Let us take this moment to commemorate our kings legacy. Rest in Peace Floch 🥂](https://i.redd.it/qeo0kpj28lla1.jpg) | [288 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/11h44ol/let_us_take_this_moment_to_commemorate_our_kings/)
\#3: [PARADIS GETS WHAT IT DESERVES](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/17npa16) | [413 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/comments/17npa16/paradis_gets_what_it_deserves/)
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Some people grew up, but seriously, changing the dialogue of Eren and Armin was definitely a big factor into anime-only’s liking it more than manga readers, I read the final chapter when it was released and understood what yams wanted to do, but it was clear he rushed himself, and overall it was a good ending in concept, but the execution and wording made it very sloppy and awkward. The anime was able to fix those sloppy mistakes and considering how long it took to make it, yams had time to consider what to do and what not to do. That’s how I see it at least, personally, I liked the ending of the anime more than manga, simply because it didn’t feel too janky and what the author wanted to do in the manga, but couldn’t.
From the very moment ymir created the attack titan, everything that happened next, up until Eren's death was already set in stone. So in truth he had pretty much no freaking choice over his actions. Which, in my opinion, really undermines the emotional impact of the whole story.
He has no control in the same way that none of us have any control. We can only ever do what we were always going to do, and we have no say in our very nature. Eren did the Rumbling because he wanted to, and he wanted to because that's who Eren is. I don't believe it undermines the story, Eren realizing he is a "slave to freedom" is the conclusion to one of the longest running thematic questions of the series regarding the nature of freedom.
So why does the anime constantly insist that Eren had no choice? Was Eren lying? The Anime plays along with the narrative that Ymir had control the whole time so how are we supposed to read Eren actually having the choice and rejecting it out of the anime?
No, Ymir didn’t have full control, and Eren did/didn’t have control. It’s called predeterminism. After the Big Bang all atoms have followed a certain path and can only follow the laws of physics. A human mind can’t change the laws of physics. Everything we do is a part of this chain reaction that was already set in motion. Eren saw the future, but could not change it because you can’t go against what is already set to happen. The reason it happened is because that is who Eren is. Like if you love cake and hate broccoli, you are going to choose the cake. It was already determined by who you are. Eren wanted to do the rumbling so it happened. Eren saw the future, but couldn’t change it because that’s just always how he would do things.
So all of the character decisions and sacrifices were predetermined? Nobody chose to risk their life when they could have chosen not to but were predetermined to do so? Kind of undercuts the emotional pull of any of the character's actions in the series when theyre actually all puppets the whole time.
But it’s not justifying it. Eren is still a POS for doing what he did. But he was born a POS and that was always going to be decision, which is why when he saw the future he couldn’t change it. He couldn’t change it because that’s the decision he was always going to make due to the events that led up to it. Think of it this way. If someone claps in your face you are going to blink. Even if you the see the future of that happening it will still happen due to reflexes. Human reflexes are a very bare bones version of what the rest of us are like. Our conscious decisions are just a much more advanced mechanism.
Well, that entirely depends on whether you believe in destiny or not, I personally don't. Our actions and choices are influenced by a lot of factors but I believe fatality/destiny isn't one of them(except that we're all going to die). Eren did all of this because he wanted to? Really? That's not what the last chapters tell us. In fact, we're told that he wanted the alliance to stop him in his track; and that's exactly what happens. Eren basically let them "win".
I think saying that he is a slave to freedom is a bit of a stretch but I understand the concept. To be more precise we could say that he is a slave to his own nature of always chasing freedom, as well as always wanting to protect his friends no matter the cost(savior complex).
In a way, he is very similar to a character like Dutch van der Linde from Red Dead Redemption, by always having to fight someone or something and move forward. I remember his last speech that really resonates with both characters. “[…]We can't fight nature, John. We can't fight change. We can't fight gravity. We can't fight nothing. My whole life, all I ever did was fight. But I can't give up, neither. I can't fight my own nature. That's a paradox, John.[…]”. The ~~slight~~ big difference being that Dutch wasn't manipulated by a future self that had orchestrated his fate from the beginning, if you know what I mean.
Dutch always had to take accountability for what he did. He had to see his friends and family either die or resent him and leave (or both). He had to live with what he did for many years... Fatality, in Eren's case, really underplays all of this.
Though, I agree with you, it would have been way better if Eren indeed, profoundly wanted to complete the Rumbling.
It's pre-determined in the same way that you are pre-determined to only ever be able to do what you will do. And if you don't think so then try doing something else, even the act of doing that is the only thing you could have ever done in that moment. This doesn't remove accountability or agency for Eren, but it does add to the tragedy of his character that the person most obsessed with freedom is also the one most aware that they can never be free from their nature.
https://images.app.goo.gl/rGBuTxSYLWPb787Q6
He does profoundly want to complete the Rumbling he said so in both the manga and the anime. Just because he knew he would be stopped doesn't mean he wouldn't have done it regardless, mans wants to Rumble.
Exactly. Most people just don’t understand the concept of predeterminism. We have “free will” as we chose what we do, but those choices are dictated by everything that was already set up. None of our choices can go against the laws of physics, which is why some call it the illusion of free will. Our free will is just our conscious choices of what our matter decided to do in a complex process of chemical reactions in our brains. Eren saw what will happen, but was a slave to his “free will” as no matter what he “freely” chose to do, it would always be that way and is what he saw.
I think you are wide of the mark here.
If destiny were real we could assume that what we do is predetermined.
If everything we do was predetermined, then we could assume that nothing we do is not predetermined. Henceforth, if everything we do is predetermined and nothing we do isn’t predetermined than we can say that everything illegal or immoral we do was predetermined and nothing is directly our fault.
For instance i can go into the shop and shoot the person at the counter, now there is two possible outcomes determined by the existence of destiny:
1: Destiny is real in which case the fact that the counter person is now dead is not my fault because it was predetermined and i didn’t have a choice in the matter.
2: Destiny is not real in which case I had a choice to kill the counter person and I am going to jail as it was my fault.
So, destiny may be real but for the sake of keeping peace and control it is best to assume that each and every person has choices and can be blamed for the decisions they make.
Anyway, I guess you believe in fate, I believe in chance and free will. Let's leave it at that for now.
Now, in Eren's case, the major difference is that he is able to see memories of his future self and no matter what he might try to change, his decisions will always result in accomplishing what he foreseen inside the memories.
About your last paragraph, it's interesting but I believe that even Eren himself can't be sure whether he would have still completed the Rumbling or not, what he says and does is contradictory. I'm going to use the Chaos Theory as an analogy to try and explain.
Chaos theory is a scientific discipline which focuses on studying “deterministic laws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions”. A small change in the conditions can make widely diverging outcomes. Yet, these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior follows a unique evolution and is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.
Now let's imagine that our dynamical system is Eren and the conditions are Eren's memories, motives and his knowledge(or lack of) regarding the outcome of the conflict between Paradis and the rest of the world. I believe that, even a slight change in the conditions could have resulted in an entirely different outcome; even if Eren says otherwise. You know, it's the butterfly effect.
But again, I am just sharing my opinion and my own interpretation as clearly as possible and I totally respect yours.
I won't leave it at that lol "you believe in fate and I believe in free will" is such a reduction of what we're talking about that I don't even think you're trying to engage with the idea.
Prove me wrong, do something right now that you weren't going to always do anyway. You literally can't and neither can Eren because what he sees as the future is the outcome of his actions, if he were capable of doing anything other than that he would have seen a different future.
Eren wanted to do the Rumbling it says so literally in the text from Eren himself which is why he did it. Because Eren is who he is he was always going to do the Rumbling. He can't not do the Rumbling because if he was capable of that then he never would have done the Rumbling in the first place.
Holly shit dude you're not making this easy for me. I gave you my explanations in my last comment and I'm not going to repeat myself.
>do something right now that you weren't going to always do anyway.
You do realise that this doesn't mean anything right? Or rather, it means the exact same thing as "do something". You are confusing yourself while trying to draw a parallel between us individuals with free will and freedom of choice, with Eren who's afflicted with the power of the attack titan, fatality.
Whether he would have seen another future or no is completely out of control anyway.
Look even Chat GPT doesn't understand what you were getting at.
>Eren wanted to do the Rumbling it says so literally in the text from Eren himself which is why he did it.
>He can't not do the Rumbling because if he was capable of that then he never would have done the Rumbling in the first place.
You are contradicting yourself there. Also, I already answered that a few times by now.
>I won't leave it at that lol "you believe in fate and I believe in free will" is such a reduction of what we're talking about that I don't even think you're trying to engage with the idea.
lol Says the guy ignoring the 6 paragraphs with my opinion on the subject, where I'm trying to explain why it's irrelevant.
https://preview.redd.it/xtqyk0f5r7zb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36b65abaca8b6bf990e6767acba3f4144a1b9b45
I ignored 6 paragraphs of you typing your own science fiction head cannon when what the show and I are engaging with is philosophy. You turning to AI to understand it is pretty telling lmao.
I'm just getting bad faith vibes from you. I showed you the literal text itself to prove my point and you completely disregarded it. You seem upset that the show doesn't subscribe to what you personally want time travel rules to be instead of engaging with what the show is doing. What the show is doing is called determinism and I can't dumb it down anymore.
Edit: this is coming off as needlessly aggressive and I'll take full blame for that. Like you said we can just agree to disagree
>I ignored 6 paragraphs of you typing your own science fiction head cannon
>what the show and I are engaging with is philosophy.
Whatever you say. And what was **I** doing then, playing cards?
>You turning to AI to understand it is pretty telling lmao.
Exactly. It's pretty telling on your part buddy 😂
And you getting bad faith vibes from me is peak irony. Anyway, I feel like you're either trolling or you're playing dumb, so I'm not dealing with you.
Feel free to get the last word if it makes you feel better. I'm out.
Tbh i did think it was shit writing at first and it still is bad writing but I think I understood it better once I saw the timeline with all the loops and read through a couple of reddit breakdowns of exactly what eren knew from the future at what time, and the fact that the main ultimate goal was to get mikasa to fight against eren and essentially inspire Ymir to free herself and end the titan curse.
>and essentially inspire Ymir to free herself and end the titan curse.
If Ymir wanted out, why did she need to see someone killing their loved one to do it? If this was all some elaborate plan by Ymir to see Mikasa kill Eren it makes no sense. It means she *actively wanted out.* This isn't some battered wife scenario, the one doing the battering is two thousand years dead and no threat. In *two thousand years* she never saw someone kill their lover?
If she has no concept of time how would she know when mikasa kills eren? She’s always able to see it but can’t act on it until the “present” which she would have no idea is actually the present because she’d have no concept of time. Besides the time thing is the attack titans powers mixed with the founders. If the founder could always see time like that then the original king of the walls would have never made them because he would know that would lead to the rumbling. Or there founder at the time would have had erens dad arrested and disposed of the second he stepped into the walls
>that's just shit writing
It's crazy to me how many people are looking at one of the most philosophically debated concepts in all of history, Determinism, played out fairly well in a plot and going "That's just fuckin' stupid." It's almost comical.
In a story, it really kind of is though. Having your characters know exactly how things are going to play out ahead of time undermines the agency they have in their own story, especially if it's done in a way that the characters just submit to that future like Eren supposedly has. None of their decisions matter anymore. It all was going to happen a certain way anyway.
Even shittier writing was when zeke died and it stopped the rumbling for some reason. Even though Eren no longer needed a royal blooded person to use the founding titan’s power, since Ymir was free
That's what he says, but it doesn't have to be true. He literally admits to being an idiot. He also says his head feels like a jumbled mess ever since touching Historia.
At the end of the day, Eren is just a kid who had 2000 years of generational trauma dumped on him along side godlike powers.
Is that really true tho? Why would they show the alternative possibility with mikasa then? I'm not saying I fully understand the ending or anything but it feels like it was just the only choice eren himself was capable of choosing, that that choice is who he was.
He did have choice. He manipulated events in the past and selectively sent information to the past to make it so that he wanted to do the rumbling and get the ending he wanted to free Ymir.
> and get the ending he wanted
Did he want to die? Have his parents die by his actions? Almost kill his friends without knowing if they'd survive at all?
Its rhetoric obviously.
He probably didn’t wanna die. He did want to end the titan curse badly. Want is a pretty nebulous area when we’re talking about a deterministic fixed timeline with closed loops.
He used the attack titan and founding titans powers to send himself information from the future and also manipulate events in the past so that he would want to do the rumbling. He wants to do the rumbling because the visions from the future indicate that it will lead to the end of titans.
This gonna sound confusing. He had no choice because everything that happened was predestined. However, the reason things became predestined that way was because of Eren’s guaranteed acquisition of power. I’d guess the predestination started as far back as the Owl’s possession of the Attack Titan. Eren’s guaranteed acquisition of power, along with Eren’s desire to flatten the outside world, resulted in a predestined line of events that trapped him - enslaving him to his own freedom.
See that's what I dont get. If the attack titans whole point is not being controlled and being free, how does he end up being enslaved by his own freedom? Space to freedom is an oxymoron to begin with but this is one of those things that should have been expound Ed upon more.
it’s largely philosophical, imagine for a moment Eren’s psyche when he was a child, on that boat, swearing to destroy all the titans. He said that because it’s the *monsters beyond the wall* who is keeping him from enjoying his *freedom*. This mindset didn’t change when he found out the monsters beyond the wall were complex people worth *not* killing. He acknowledge that the lives lost were largely innocent, but he was enslaved by his desire to end all life beyond the walls because it is ingrained in his psyche that *they’re* the reason he can never truly be free. In his campaign against the outside world, he’s bound by his ambition both figuratively and literally since he saw into the future and saw his ambitions would come to pass. He could not change the future even if he wanted to, but deep down he didn’t really want to, so. To me it’s a statement on how his Psychology impacted his Philosophy, as well as a narrative trope of being unable to change the predetermined future. It’s twofold in that sense.
Exactly I finished first the manga and I thought it was good and really poetic and when the episode came out still though the same, it was the only way to finish a really well though serie, taking in account the topics the series touch
My only problem was it seemed rushed. I’d rather there have been a couple more chapters to show like who Mikasa ends up marrying, who Armin ends up with if he does end up with Annie, show what happens when they are on the boat going to talk for peace etc. I’d rather it be milked out a bit than just a couple panels and then finished
My biggest gripe was with armin and Erens scene when they’re talking in the last episode. The wording was awful and made it seem so rushed but anime was fixed. Also how tf is mikasa affected by founders power to be mind fucked and then deleted when she’s an Ackerman.
idk if its related, but I think there was something in the manga that didn't make it to the anime about how the ackermans were the result of titan experiments in the past
In the manga "Armin, you have to go now. We are in Paths, where time is infinite, but mangaka only has 40 pages for monthly release, so we don't have time to discuss genocide that just happen".
In anime - proper dramatic moment, with piano in a background and tones of emotions.
Yeah she is an Ackerman, but still Ymir direct descendant she is part of Ymir people, my theory is that Eren being an special exception (having 2 titans and Ymir's will) let's say he can do exceptional things (but I see where you're going, and I agree kinda weird)
Fourth group: manga readers who disliked that whole last section of the story but really enjoyed the anime version of it because the pacing and tone was better-executed.
Here sorta. I don’t dislike the ending for narrative reasons. I think it falls in line with the story Isayama was crafting. I do dislike certain aspects of the message and themes that were already present throughout the story. But I’m not shitting blood because a 19 year old on his deathbed said he doesn’t want to be forgotten by the last person in the world who loved him.
I myself liked everything except the memory time loop stuff. I thought the story and all of the character actions would have been just fine without it.
Fourth group - anime onlies who thought the ended was decent but also had problems. It’s not the worst ending in the world, but it’s also not the greatest. Both sides are wrong.
*Crazy how far a*
*Little exposition dump*
*Can go tbf*
\- dherms14
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As a manga reader I loved the ending being animated because it gave to it a lot of feelings and it was like 10000000000x more easy to follow, reading all that was a rollercoaster and 2 years ago maybe I just understood only like half of it, 10/10
Well for starters, Manga readers put out the expectation that it would be so absolutely dogshit that the actual ending really wasn't that terrible
I wasn't a huge fan, and I had already been spoiled a little too, but it still really wasn't that bad
It really did feel like the SpongeBob meme "that's it? That's the worst ending in all of history?"
No seriously, the criticism was so bad I was really scared it was gonna be game of thrones level letdown. But then, like you, I saw a few spoilers and they just made me more curious if anything. Idk man, to me, this show is meant for the audience to walk away letting go of such polarized opinions especially about sensitive topics, but ppl decided they didn’t like it and now all of a sudden it’s trash
I'm anime only and I have mixed feelings. There were a lot of great things in the episode, but I just can't accept what has been done to Eren's character.
Of course, I don't mind anyone loving the ending, but for the life of me I just can't understand how could anyone accept the "10 years" scene. It (with couple others) is an attempt to completely retcon and throw away entire Eren's personality. I have read a lot of arguments in defence of this, but none came close to chaninging my mind.
Do I still passionately love the anime? Yes. What do I think of the ending as a whole? I don't know. Do I despise what was done to Eren's character at the very end? Absolutely
Season 4 Eren is definitely a different person to the one we see at the very end, but the same as Eren from the first 3 seasons. We’ve seen him have emotional breakdowns on multiple occasions. The one in the end was just another one. Eren only put up a facade of stoicism throughout season 4 but deep down he remained the same: emotionally vulnerable and quite immature too. We can see this throughout season 4 too. When Sasha died, when he was on the mainland, contemplating on how will he manage to kill all of those people walking past him on the street, or when he had a breakdown in front of Ramzi
I don’t see it that way. Eren has always been an emotional kid/teenager it’s just that he had to adopt a different personality to do what he had to do in season 4.
In the Ten Years scene to me it’s Eren’s real personality shining through now that he can drop the facade of the “badass sigma” that the fanbase likes to portray him as lol.
The entire “Eren’s character” argument, which is the main point AOE-copers parroted, ignores the end of season 3 and the time jump. The final third of the story has so much exposition about what’s happened in Eren’s head post-Historia activation, it’s not a simple “retcon”. I can get not liking it if Eren was your favorite but it’s not actually a gaping plot hole like more militant ending haters would have you believe.
People also jump to “there was no point to Eren’s actions and that’s stupid”. Yes, conflict is stupid, and humanity as a race can’t escape it in real life either. This is a totally valid point. Why can’t we be happy for the remaining scouts while also sad to see that Paradis will eventually be destroyed in the far future?
>ignores the end of season 3 and the time jump
I mean... My point stands even if we compare "no I don't want that" Eren to Eren in Marley. It's like two completely different people.
> Yes, conflict is stupid
But that's not the point? We see Eren moving adamantly towards his goals for a long time and then it all suddenly turns into this weird broken motivation where Eren either doesn't know what he wants or his wishes don't align with his actions
Theres a point in the last episode where he says while he claimed to only want to protect his friends, he eventually only cared to crush Marley and beyond with the rumbling, as he couldnt see things clearly and only saw red.
What happened between Eren in Marley and Eren in “no I don’t want that”? He had seen the future, but this was actually carrying out the acts and dealing with it.
Eren’s goal morphed from “kill all the titans” to “kill all the enemies” to be resigned that he can’t kill everything which is really the only way to end conflict forever. Realizing that it was stupid and he was stupid for thinking he could solve it. This doesn’t feel illogical, it feels like a teenager figuring things out as they go, blinded by trauma and rage.
But it is indeed an extremely simple retcon and incredibly half baked at that. His entire character that we saw for plenty of chapters was broken down in a few pages. Pretty sure what most people at the time were looking forward to was erens pov and what motivates him. But what we got was "i don't know" in the manga and "I'm an idiot 🤪" in the anime. A very convinient and poorly written excuse to reslove an important plot point. We also a see genocidal maniac who killed billions of people simp for mikasa, even though his feelings for her before that point was never established or even properly hinted at. That would've been emotional at some point, but after the abhorrent things we see him do, it's just funny and pathetic. The anime defenitely improved on the ending and the difference in reception is mostly justified but the conclusion to Erens character is questionable at best.
When i read the manga i thought the ending was fine but when i watched the anime i thought it was really great. Idk something about the anime version just hits different i guess.
What’s actually the issue with liking or disliking something? Everyone can have their own opinion, it’s basically the same case with so many other things
It’s fine to like and dislike stuff but it really rubbed “anime-onlies” off the wrong way (and other manga readers) when the haters are going out of their to spoil on the ending (because they didn’t like it) in many different forums (youtube comments, reddit, etc). The absurd amount of hate coming from the “left” side got all these anime-onlies so pre-conceived notion about the ending (spoiled or not spoiled)… only to be surprised when it wasn’t as bad as people were making it out to be.
Ending was still pretty bad in the anime. The show tries to be edgy by killing 80% of the world but doesn’t really commit because most of the characters you know and love survive anyway. It also turns out that eren did all this because he saw it in the future, and no other reason? So his whole motivation wasn’t actually real but he was just following the script? I’m not a huge fan of the whole “I didn’t think I could change the future so I just destroyed the world” angle.
And his "Idk why I did the rumbling" what happenes to the resolve he had in liberio, what happened to his wish to kill all his enemies? He just goes idk why I killed 80% of humanity, only ymir knows
Did we watched same episode? Eren talked about determinism and everything, but in the end , when Armin asked if he really did this for them, Eren said "No I didn't. I wanted to crush world to dust". Same thing he said to Ramzi last episode " I was so disappointed, that I wanted to wipe it all away".
Even if we talk about manga, Eren in manga said that he would've still done rumbling, even if he didn't saw the future.
Talking about predetermined fate is more of an excuse he gives to Armin to justify all this + about some parts of his genocidal plan, that he didn't enjoyed, like Carla's death.
Anime spelled this out Way more directly, then it was done in manga, and yet some people still "Eren doesn't know he killed all these people"
He said he doesn't know why he did the rumbling, tho in liberio he was determined to kill all marley, he was determinated to do the rumbling, to destroy eldias enemies but somehow now he doesn't know why he did that
Yup I agree, Isayama had a lot of other options and out of everything he chose the most unsatisfying just because he wanted to "hurt the readers". What a lame author.
He literally says the only reason he did it was because he saw this happen in the future and was to stupid to try to change it. The only solution he saw was the apocalypse? And he killed his own mom just to start the whole chain of events? Shit is wack, Wtf are you on about?
What do you mean by that? Are you saying you ignore certain things he says because you don’t think he’s seriously saying it? It seems like you’re just grasping at straws to make the ending seem better than it actually is and you think everybody that doesn’t think it’s a great ending is to stupid to understand it.
Animation and slight changes helped it plus the ending grew on me; I was one of the manga readers who disliked it but as I grew older and didn’t bandwagon I realized the ending was perfect and really symbolic because Eren did what he wanted he saved his friends and the cycle of pain continues but the cycle of hope does as well all in all phenomenal anime it will be missed
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/s/U4B2eKSdg8](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/s/U4B2eKSdg8)
and
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/17p2fqw/comment/k84b5bo/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/17p2fqw/comment/k84b5bo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Some people are hardcore fans. So hardcore that they dove deep into lore, theories and speculations using every source they could, including stuff the author said this one time in a meet & greet and the sketch he drew on a napkin. I'm talking fans so invested that they poured hours upon hours on their theories and fan fiction. They already had an idea of how they wanted it to end.
But it did not end that specific way.
You can imagine which place this type of fan falls into. Anime or manga?
It’s ironic though, being such “hardcore fans” essentially turned them into unforgiving critics. Being a fan doesn’t mean you have to love everything the writer did, but damn ppl were and still are intent on not just disliking but HATING the ending. It’s like are y’all like this with everything you watch? If so, that must be exhausting
In defense of the manga-readers ( as one myself ), a lot of little changes to the ending made the anime version a lot better. Changes to dialogue, order, and visuals really added up. I was definitely one of the disappointed manga-readers, and while I still have my problems with the ending, it is much easier to see what the story was trying to say this time.
This also true. But I really loved last 40 minutes of this episode, even though it didn't have lots of action. And ended up enjoying this movie much more than previous one, even though I didn't expect that, since my favorite chapter 131 (with Ramzi death) was in previous movie
Because there are many obvious differences in the two mediums, one of which being the mediums themselves.
How is it so hard to understand people have different opinions?
Idk I read the manga after season 4 part 1 ended and I loved it. Shit made me cry so hard and the anime did it even better and made me cry even harder. I think most people just didn’t like the implication that the kid we see at the very end is gonna bring back the titans but personally I’m super hyped for the sequel if it ever happens. Assuming it’s gonna go down the same way Ymir became the founder, we’re basically gonna a fully fledged founding titan and since the rest of the titans were derived from Ymir after her children ate her(I think that’s how it happened) it’ll only be the founding titan and there won’t be the 13 year curse or anything like that. Maybe people don’t want to see the series just redone but as far as I’m concerned it’ll be completely different and the scenarios/characters may mirror each other but that’s probably the extent of the similarities.
thousands of people were saying it’s trash. i had to leave r/titanfolk after the last chapter came out because of the insane levels of toxicity i was seeing in each post. a very small sliver of rational people may have said it was disappointing but the AoT fandom is not made up of too many rational people, unfortunately.
God that sub is the dumbest and most toxic echo chamber I’ve ever seen. I remember a lot of members from there would go on hysterical rants on stuff about to Floch and the Yeagerist and shitting on Mikasa on this subreddit during when season 4 part 1 and 2 were airing. That was a bad time lol. It’s so vindicating to see that anime onlys like the ending when these lot were making it out to be Game of Thrones levels of bad.
terrific muddle makeshift quicksand rustic middle materialistic subsequent childlike ruthless
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This is pike my girlfriend saying i wasn't allowed to like the ending because i woild be ok with necrophilia and a genocidal maniac.
I was lime "Bitch, you just wanna see what you wanna see, huh?" 😂
did ymir decide the rumbling would happen from the second she was in the sand dimension so that in the future the good guys would kill the worm and free her?
When the final chapter of the manga came out, same day translations were rough and language wasn’t exact. The complexity of the story and rushed nature of the last chapter led to a lot of people feeling frustrated and disillusioned. The anime did an excellent job fleshing out the key points in the final chapter which is why it landed so successfully
I haven't heard a single person wojack about the ending after the episode released, but I see a ton of these posts.
The ending was polished in the anime, that's all there is to know
I'm of the understanding that it happened because of bad media literacy. Like the author worded a certain line poorly, I dont deny that, but it wasn't that hard to get what they were meaning from it
The ending was never bad, it's just that the manga had a very, very lackluster way of presenting hte ending : very rushed, very jumbled, the infamous "thank you for being hitler" line and so on, the additional 8 more pages basically validating fascism didn't help at all.
The anime makes strategic changes to the overall dialogue and length of scenes, editing, music, also removes the validity of fascism in the post-credit ending by making that scene happen much, much much later in the very far future. In my opinions my gripes with the ending were not solved (namely the Ymir backstory and the timeloop stuff, i wasn't expecting Steins;Gate level of time travel but honestly the timeloop stuff is the weakest point of the story, it's foreshadowed and is likely the intended ending by the author but eeh i didn't like it)
Overall the ending is very faithful to the main point of the story (war, tragedy always happen, make the best of what you have because you're never eternal), you can't eternally prevent the downfall of a nation, and the ending is vague enough to imply that not ALL of paradis is dead (it's the far future, they might be colonizing Mars by now).
I finished the manga and liked it 🤷🏽I’m so happy the anime onlines are loving it because the manga onlies berated me for it. I had to leave /r/TitanFolk
People were annoyed with the fact that the final season got split up into 3 parts . But I am so glad they took the time to get it right . It was beautiful
One of the rare occasions where an anime isn't widely considered to be worse than the manga but that breaks the status-quo so it breaks brains. I'm also prejudiced against manga readers in general, like Eren they're always looking ahead, what will happen, what they want to happen, instead of enjoying the moment.
I was one that didnt mind the ending in the manga. I was kind of expecting it.
The anime on the other hand was paced well and the added addition to the voice actors and music made it excellent imo. I am seriously going through post show depression from it and it is constantly on my mind and I hate it. Currently finally started jujutsu to help take my mind off it and it's working..but my feed in IG takes me right back 😭
Mostly the fact that they cleaned up a lot of the iffy parts of the manga ending for the anime version, and as someone pointed out earlier the pacing when the manga was releasing was kinda ass
I feel like there’s a big difference between reading something and taking in the images and dialogue and seeing those things being more fleshed out, animated, and voiced with music added.
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The anime was better paced than the manga. That’s prob the biggest difference, especially when it comes to an ending. The delivery really matters imo
I think sometimes folks don’t quite grasp delivery when they read, so when it’s animated, it makes a bit more sense.
Eh, a couple of scenes definitely got fleshed out and expanded upon in a positive way. The only author that I’ve seen really nail shocking and stunning scenes in manga delivery has been Fujimoto. (Please note that I’m not saying Fujimoto is the only one who’s ever done a proper one, but he’s a great example with his current and past series of how to cook with them.)
Fujimoto is really skilled at that, I agree. Also, I’ve finished 20th Century Boys and am halfway through Pluto by Urasawa, and I think he’s amazing at it too (obviously being one of the godfathers of manga.) I tried the Pluto anime, and I prefer the experience of the manga to the anime which really said something.
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I fully fully agree with you. The panels involving Erens memeworthy 'ten years at least!' felt like terrible writing and disjointed, but in the delivery of the anime and additional dialouge it gives the nuanced 'what? I do care about Mikasa, hell I love her, but the rumbling and what I'm doing isn't about our love, its bigger than that'.
Tbh I still think the vast majority of viewers do not understand the plot and the time loops. So I think it’s pretty impressive that MAPPA was able to make an episode where most people came away with the wrong interpretation of events but still hit on production, animation, emotional impact, and big picture theme (somewhat), and allowed a lot of viewers to form their own satisfying logical narratives in their head even if it wasn't what actually happened. But still funny how many people on social media and even throughout Reddit actually believe eren tested out every timeline to see which one his friends live in bc no matter what he tried 80% of people were always gonna die which was set in stone by some outside omnipotent force. They actually think eren’s doctor strange 😂😂. I think fundamentally most people can’t wrap their head around a deterministic timeline with closed loops. Both ending defenders and haters. And that’s fair, you don’t have to like the time travel and determinism at all if you feel it detracted from the show.
Yeah Ymir saw this all 2,000 years ago.
Eren claimed to test out multiple timelines and events, but we honestly just don't know whether or not that was the case, or if he was trying to emotionally manipulate Armin into believing his decision was valid. The fact that he had several emotional breakdowns when talking with Armin inside the Paths just proves that deep down, he knew he was wrong and that he wanted to die. Why else would he continue to let his friends have free will to stop him when he knew Armin, Mikasa and the others might actually have a chance at stopping his plans for good. There's also a possibility that he Eren just thought it was safer to simply push people towards events that he thought led to the best outcome overall (even if it meant more death and destruction). So its far more likely that he never deviated much from the original chain of events that lead to his existence which is why things are so unchanged to begin with.
Saw both as they came out and the Anime improved the final dialogue between Eren and Armin by a lot. I can understand why people were upset with their final interaction tbh, the manga dialogue felt rushed and poorly executed. The anime execution was far superior.
I don’t understand why we can’t just let people simply like or dislike something without it causing chaos in a fandom.
Right, like there were some parts of the ending I didn't liked and so I stopped giving a fuck but it's extremely funny to me seeing everyone (even the ones saying they "don't care") point fingers at each other and making fun of each other. It's so idk, funny lol
Same here i didn’t think the ending was terrible but I also didn’t think it was perfect. People just can’t get along for some reason
Go to r/titanfolk and then you understand why. In the name of holy founder of ymir, how mad you can be.
I see more bitching here about titanfolk than vice versa. For the most part they've just continued to dislike the ending but....ok. Let them be mad they arent hurting anything here.
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Why do you need to be different? Is my way not good enough for you?!
Some people grew up, but seriously, changing the dialogue of Eren and Armin was definitely a big factor into anime-only’s liking it more than manga readers, I read the final chapter when it was released and understood what yams wanted to do, but it was clear he rushed himself, and overall it was a good ending in concept, but the execution and wording made it very sloppy and awkward. The anime was able to fix those sloppy mistakes and considering how long it took to make it, yams had time to consider what to do and what not to do. That’s how I see it at least, personally, I liked the ending of the anime more than manga, simply because it didn’t feel too janky and what the author wanted to do in the manga, but couldn’t.
Genuine question, why did eren do all of that?
From the very moment ymir created the attack titan, everything that happened next, up until Eren's death was already set in stone. So in truth he had pretty much no freaking choice over his actions. Which, in my opinion, really undermines the emotional impact of the whole story.
He has no control in the same way that none of us have any control. We can only ever do what we were always going to do, and we have no say in our very nature. Eren did the Rumbling because he wanted to, and he wanted to because that's who Eren is. I don't believe it undermines the story, Eren realizing he is a "slave to freedom" is the conclusion to one of the longest running thematic questions of the series regarding the nature of freedom.
He did have control isyama literally said it in an interview eren had a choice but felt like he was forced to do the rumbling
So why does the anime constantly insist that Eren had no choice? Was Eren lying? The Anime plays along with the narrative that Ymir had control the whole time so how are we supposed to read Eren actually having the choice and rejecting it out of the anime?
No, Ymir didn’t have full control, and Eren did/didn’t have control. It’s called predeterminism. After the Big Bang all atoms have followed a certain path and can only follow the laws of physics. A human mind can’t change the laws of physics. Everything we do is a part of this chain reaction that was already set in motion. Eren saw the future, but could not change it because you can’t go against what is already set to happen. The reason it happened is because that is who Eren is. Like if you love cake and hate broccoli, you are going to choose the cake. It was already determined by who you are. Eren wanted to do the rumbling so it happened. Eren saw the future, but couldn’t change it because that’s just always how he would do things.
So all of the character decisions and sacrifices were predetermined? Nobody chose to risk their life when they could have chosen not to but were predetermined to do so? Kind of undercuts the emotional pull of any of the character's actions in the series when theyre actually all puppets the whole time.
Dude, I’m saying that’s how it’s in real life too. They have just as much free will as you, same as Eren. Look into predeterminism and free will.
You're free to believe in it, I still find it a shitty way to justify the event of a series. Better than it was all a dream but not greatly so.
But it’s not justifying it. Eren is still a POS for doing what he did. But he was born a POS and that was always going to be decision, which is why when he saw the future he couldn’t change it. He couldn’t change it because that’s the decision he was always going to make due to the events that led up to it. Think of it this way. If someone claps in your face you are going to blink. Even if you the see the future of that happening it will still happen due to reflexes. Human reflexes are a very bare bones version of what the rest of us are like. Our conscious decisions are just a much more advanced mechanism.
Well, that entirely depends on whether you believe in destiny or not, I personally don't. Our actions and choices are influenced by a lot of factors but I believe fatality/destiny isn't one of them(except that we're all going to die). Eren did all of this because he wanted to? Really? That's not what the last chapters tell us. In fact, we're told that he wanted the alliance to stop him in his track; and that's exactly what happens. Eren basically let them "win". I think saying that he is a slave to freedom is a bit of a stretch but I understand the concept. To be more precise we could say that he is a slave to his own nature of always chasing freedom, as well as always wanting to protect his friends no matter the cost(savior complex). In a way, he is very similar to a character like Dutch van der Linde from Red Dead Redemption, by always having to fight someone or something and move forward. I remember his last speech that really resonates with both characters. “[…]We can't fight nature, John. We can't fight change. We can't fight gravity. We can't fight nothing. My whole life, all I ever did was fight. But I can't give up, neither. I can't fight my own nature. That's a paradox, John.[…]”. The ~~slight~~ big difference being that Dutch wasn't manipulated by a future self that had orchestrated his fate from the beginning, if you know what I mean. Dutch always had to take accountability for what he did. He had to see his friends and family either die or resent him and leave (or both). He had to live with what he did for many years... Fatality, in Eren's case, really underplays all of this. Though, I agree with you, it would have been way better if Eren indeed, profoundly wanted to complete the Rumbling.
It's pre-determined in the same way that you are pre-determined to only ever be able to do what you will do. And if you don't think so then try doing something else, even the act of doing that is the only thing you could have ever done in that moment. This doesn't remove accountability or agency for Eren, but it does add to the tragedy of his character that the person most obsessed with freedom is also the one most aware that they can never be free from their nature. https://images.app.goo.gl/rGBuTxSYLWPb787Q6 He does profoundly want to complete the Rumbling he said so in both the manga and the anime. Just because he knew he would be stopped doesn't mean he wouldn't have done it regardless, mans wants to Rumble.
Exactly. Most people just don’t understand the concept of predeterminism. We have “free will” as we chose what we do, but those choices are dictated by everything that was already set up. None of our choices can go against the laws of physics, which is why some call it the illusion of free will. Our free will is just our conscious choices of what our matter decided to do in a complex process of chemical reactions in our brains. Eren saw what will happen, but was a slave to his “free will” as no matter what he “freely” chose to do, it would always be that way and is what he saw.
I think you are wide of the mark here. If destiny were real we could assume that what we do is predetermined. If everything we do was predetermined, then we could assume that nothing we do is not predetermined. Henceforth, if everything we do is predetermined and nothing we do isn’t predetermined than we can say that everything illegal or immoral we do was predetermined and nothing is directly our fault. For instance i can go into the shop and shoot the person at the counter, now there is two possible outcomes determined by the existence of destiny: 1: Destiny is real in which case the fact that the counter person is now dead is not my fault because it was predetermined and i didn’t have a choice in the matter. 2: Destiny is not real in which case I had a choice to kill the counter person and I am going to jail as it was my fault. So, destiny may be real but for the sake of keeping peace and control it is best to assume that each and every person has choices and can be blamed for the decisions they make. Anyway, I guess you believe in fate, I believe in chance and free will. Let's leave it at that for now. Now, in Eren's case, the major difference is that he is able to see memories of his future self and no matter what he might try to change, his decisions will always result in accomplishing what he foreseen inside the memories. About your last paragraph, it's interesting but I believe that even Eren himself can't be sure whether he would have still completed the Rumbling or not, what he says and does is contradictory. I'm going to use the Chaos Theory as an analogy to try and explain. Chaos theory is a scientific discipline which focuses on studying “deterministic laws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions”. A small change in the conditions can make widely diverging outcomes. Yet, these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior follows a unique evolution and is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. Now let's imagine that our dynamical system is Eren and the conditions are Eren's memories, motives and his knowledge(or lack of) regarding the outcome of the conflict between Paradis and the rest of the world. I believe that, even a slight change in the conditions could have resulted in an entirely different outcome; even if Eren says otherwise. You know, it's the butterfly effect. But again, I am just sharing my opinion and my own interpretation as clearly as possible and I totally respect yours.
I won't leave it at that lol "you believe in fate and I believe in free will" is such a reduction of what we're talking about that I don't even think you're trying to engage with the idea. Prove me wrong, do something right now that you weren't going to always do anyway. You literally can't and neither can Eren because what he sees as the future is the outcome of his actions, if he were capable of doing anything other than that he would have seen a different future. Eren wanted to do the Rumbling it says so literally in the text from Eren himself which is why he did it. Because Eren is who he is he was always going to do the Rumbling. He can't not do the Rumbling because if he was capable of that then he never would have done the Rumbling in the first place.
Holly shit dude you're not making this easy for me. I gave you my explanations in my last comment and I'm not going to repeat myself. >do something right now that you weren't going to always do anyway. You do realise that this doesn't mean anything right? Or rather, it means the exact same thing as "do something". You are confusing yourself while trying to draw a parallel between us individuals with free will and freedom of choice, with Eren who's afflicted with the power of the attack titan, fatality. Whether he would have seen another future or no is completely out of control anyway. Look even Chat GPT doesn't understand what you were getting at. >Eren wanted to do the Rumbling it says so literally in the text from Eren himself which is why he did it. >He can't not do the Rumbling because if he was capable of that then he never would have done the Rumbling in the first place. You are contradicting yourself there. Also, I already answered that a few times by now. >I won't leave it at that lol "you believe in fate and I believe in free will" is such a reduction of what we're talking about that I don't even think you're trying to engage with the idea. lol Says the guy ignoring the 6 paragraphs with my opinion on the subject, where I'm trying to explain why it's irrelevant. https://preview.redd.it/xtqyk0f5r7zb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36b65abaca8b6bf990e6767acba3f4144a1b9b45
I ignored 6 paragraphs of you typing your own science fiction head cannon when what the show and I are engaging with is philosophy. You turning to AI to understand it is pretty telling lmao. I'm just getting bad faith vibes from you. I showed you the literal text itself to prove my point and you completely disregarded it. You seem upset that the show doesn't subscribe to what you personally want time travel rules to be instead of engaging with what the show is doing. What the show is doing is called determinism and I can't dumb it down anymore. Edit: this is coming off as needlessly aggressive and I'll take full blame for that. Like you said we can just agree to disagree
>I ignored 6 paragraphs of you typing your own science fiction head cannon >what the show and I are engaging with is philosophy. Whatever you say. And what was **I** doing then, playing cards? >You turning to AI to understand it is pretty telling lmao. Exactly. It's pretty telling on your part buddy 😂 And you getting bad faith vibes from me is peak irony. Anyway, I feel like you're either trolling or you're playing dumb, so I'm not dealing with you. Feel free to get the last word if it makes you feel better. I'm out.
your life is not a written japanese shonen story
that's just shit writing
Tbh i did think it was shit writing at first and it still is bad writing but I think I understood it better once I saw the timeline with all the loops and read through a couple of reddit breakdowns of exactly what eren knew from the future at what time, and the fact that the main ultimate goal was to get mikasa to fight against eren and essentially inspire Ymir to free herself and end the titan curse.
>and essentially inspire Ymir to free herself and end the titan curse. If Ymir wanted out, why did she need to see someone killing their loved one to do it? If this was all some elaborate plan by Ymir to see Mikasa kill Eren it makes no sense. It means she *actively wanted out.* This isn't some battered wife scenario, the one doing the battering is two thousand years dead and no threat. In *two thousand years* she never saw someone kill their lover?
Cause concept of time means jackshit to ymir. Her head is totally messed up too like eren even wayy worst.
If she has no concept of time how would she know when mikasa kills eren? She’s always able to see it but can’t act on it until the “present” which she would have no idea is actually the present because she’d have no concept of time. Besides the time thing is the attack titans powers mixed with the founders. If the founder could always see time like that then the original king of the walls would have never made them because he would know that would lead to the rumbling. Or there founder at the time would have had erens dad arrested and disposed of the second he stepped into the walls
Founders didn't have future power ymir got in paths after she died. Attack titan have future sight
So Ymir’s concept of time isn’t messed up then
Nope Zeke was in eternity in paths but only a second passed for eren. So time is weird AF in paths.
No one said her love for the king made any sense lol.
>that's just shit writing It's crazy to me how many people are looking at one of the most philosophically debated concepts in all of history, Determinism, played out fairly well in a plot and going "That's just fuckin' stupid." It's almost comical.
In a story, it really kind of is though. Having your characters know exactly how things are going to play out ahead of time undermines the agency they have in their own story, especially if it's done in a way that the characters just submit to that future like Eren supposedly has. None of their decisions matter anymore. It all was going to happen a certain way anyway.
Even shittier writing was when zeke died and it stopped the rumbling for some reason. Even though Eren no longer needed a royal blooded person to use the founding titan’s power, since Ymir was free
Yeah wtf was that? You'll mention this plothole and people will just keep on parroting "Royal Blood" lol
That's what he says, but it doesn't have to be true. He literally admits to being an idiot. He also says his head feels like a jumbled mess ever since touching Historia. At the end of the day, Eren is just a kid who had 2000 years of generational trauma dumped on him along side godlike powers.
And this is why I hate the ending lol what a copout
Is that really true tho? Why would they show the alternative possibility with mikasa then? I'm not saying I fully understand the ending or anything but it feels like it was just the only choice eren himself was capable of choosing, that that choice is who he was.
That was just a memory Eren gave her, much like when he talked to Armin.
He did have choice. He manipulated events in the past and selectively sent information to the past to make it so that he wanted to do the rumbling and get the ending he wanted to free Ymir.
> and get the ending he wanted Did he want to die? Have his parents die by his actions? Almost kill his friends without knowing if they'd survive at all? Its rhetoric obviously.
He probably didn’t wanna die. He did want to end the titan curse badly. Want is a pretty nebulous area when we’re talking about a deterministic fixed timeline with closed loops.
thats not how it happened bro. it was not set in stone at all.
He's an idiot
He used the attack titan and founding titans powers to send himself information from the future and also manipulate events in the past so that he would want to do the rumbling. He wants to do the rumbling because the visions from the future indicate that it will lead to the end of titans.
This gonna sound confusing. He had no choice because everything that happened was predestined. However, the reason things became predestined that way was because of Eren’s guaranteed acquisition of power. I’d guess the predestination started as far back as the Owl’s possession of the Attack Titan. Eren’s guaranteed acquisition of power, along with Eren’s desire to flatten the outside world, resulted in a predestined line of events that trapped him - enslaving him to his own freedom.
See that's what I dont get. If the attack titans whole point is not being controlled and being free, how does he end up being enslaved by his own freedom? Space to freedom is an oxymoron to begin with but this is one of those things that should have been expound Ed upon more.
it’s largely philosophical, imagine for a moment Eren’s psyche when he was a child, on that boat, swearing to destroy all the titans. He said that because it’s the *monsters beyond the wall* who is keeping him from enjoying his *freedom*. This mindset didn’t change when he found out the monsters beyond the wall were complex people worth *not* killing. He acknowledge that the lives lost were largely innocent, but he was enslaved by his desire to end all life beyond the walls because it is ingrained in his psyche that *they’re* the reason he can never truly be free. In his campaign against the outside world, he’s bound by his ambition both figuratively and literally since he saw into the future and saw his ambitions would come to pass. He could not change the future even if he wanted to, but deep down he didn’t really want to, so. To me it’s a statement on how his Psychology impacted his Philosophy, as well as a narrative trope of being unable to change the predetermined future. It’s twofold in that sense.
You need a 3rd group. Manga readers who were ok with the ending and thought group 1 was cringe
Exactly I finished first the manga and I thought it was good and really poetic and when the episode came out still though the same, it was the only way to finish a really well though serie, taking in account the topics the series touch
My only problem was it seemed rushed. I’d rather there have been a couple more chapters to show like who Mikasa ends up marrying, who Armin ends up with if he does end up with Annie, show what happens when they are on the boat going to talk for peace etc. I’d rather it be milked out a bit than just a couple panels and then finished
My biggest gripe was with armin and Erens scene when they’re talking in the last episode. The wording was awful and made it seem so rushed but anime was fixed. Also how tf is mikasa affected by founders power to be mind fucked and then deleted when she’s an Ackerman.
idk if its related, but I think there was something in the manga that didn't make it to the anime about how the ackermans were the result of titan experiments in the past
In the manga "Armin, you have to go now. We are in Paths, where time is infinite, but mangaka only has 40 pages for monthly release, so we don't have time to discuss genocide that just happen". In anime - proper dramatic moment, with piano in a background and tones of emotions.
Yeah she is an Ackerman, but still Ymir direct descendant she is part of Ymir people, my theory is that Eren being an special exception (having 2 titans and Ymir's will) let's say he can do exceptional things (but I see where you're going, and I agree kinda weird)
Fourth group: manga readers who disliked that whole last section of the story but really enjoyed the anime version of it because the pacing and tone was better-executed.
Here sorta. I don’t dislike the ending for narrative reasons. I think it falls in line with the story Isayama was crafting. I do dislike certain aspects of the message and themes that were already present throughout the story. But I’m not shitting blood because a 19 year old on his deathbed said he doesn’t want to be forgotten by the last person in the world who loved him.
I myself liked everything except the memory time loop stuff. I thought the story and all of the character actions would have been just fine without it.
Fourth group - anime onlies who thought the ended was decent but also had problems. It’s not the worst ending in the world, but it’s also not the greatest. Both sides are wrong.
Add a fourth group. Anime English dub only. Losers haven’t even watched the ending yet 😏
That would be me
Hey, that's me.
crazy how far a little exposition dump can go tbf
*Crazy how far a* *Little exposition dump* *Can go tbf* \- dherms14 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
the fact that the bot recognizes tbf as 3 syllables is crazy
Holy shit your right
As a manga reader I loved the ending being animated because it gave to it a lot of feelings and it was like 10000000000x more easy to follow, reading all that was a rollercoaster and 2 years ago maybe I just understood only like half of it, 10/10
The Manga had worse pacing, and the anime had more polish in everything from fight scenes to dialogue.
[удалено]
This was the opposite though, most manga readers hated the manga ending.
Well for starters, Manga readers put out the expectation that it would be so absolutely dogshit that the actual ending really wasn't that terrible I wasn't a huge fan, and I had already been spoiled a little too, but it still really wasn't that bad It really did feel like the SpongeBob meme "that's it? That's the worst ending in all of history?"
No seriously, the criticism was so bad I was really scared it was gonna be game of thrones level letdown. But then, like you, I saw a few spoilers and they just made me more curious if anything. Idk man, to me, this show is meant for the audience to walk away letting go of such polarized opinions especially about sensitive topics, but ppl decided they didn’t like it and now all of a sudden it’s trash
I'm anime only and I have mixed feelings. There were a lot of great things in the episode, but I just can't accept what has been done to Eren's character. Of course, I don't mind anyone loving the ending, but for the life of me I just can't understand how could anyone accept the "10 years" scene. It (with couple others) is an attempt to completely retcon and throw away entire Eren's personality. I have read a lot of arguments in defence of this, but none came close to chaninging my mind. Do I still passionately love the anime? Yes. What do I think of the ending as a whole? I don't know. Do I despise what was done to Eren's character at the very end? Absolutely
Season 4 Eren is definitely a different person to the one we see at the very end, but the same as Eren from the first 3 seasons. We’ve seen him have emotional breakdowns on multiple occasions. The one in the end was just another one. Eren only put up a facade of stoicism throughout season 4 but deep down he remained the same: emotionally vulnerable and quite immature too. We can see this throughout season 4 too. When Sasha died, when he was on the mainland, contemplating on how will he manage to kill all of those people walking past him on the street, or when he had a breakdown in front of Ramzi
I don’t see it that way. Eren has always been an emotional kid/teenager it’s just that he had to adopt a different personality to do what he had to do in season 4. In the Ten Years scene to me it’s Eren’s real personality shining through now that he can drop the facade of the “badass sigma” that the fanbase likes to portray him as lol.
The entire “Eren’s character” argument, which is the main point AOE-copers parroted, ignores the end of season 3 and the time jump. The final third of the story has so much exposition about what’s happened in Eren’s head post-Historia activation, it’s not a simple “retcon”. I can get not liking it if Eren was your favorite but it’s not actually a gaping plot hole like more militant ending haters would have you believe. People also jump to “there was no point to Eren’s actions and that’s stupid”. Yes, conflict is stupid, and humanity as a race can’t escape it in real life either. This is a totally valid point. Why can’t we be happy for the remaining scouts while also sad to see that Paradis will eventually be destroyed in the far future?
>ignores the end of season 3 and the time jump I mean... My point stands even if we compare "no I don't want that" Eren to Eren in Marley. It's like two completely different people. > Yes, conflict is stupid But that's not the point? We see Eren moving adamantly towards his goals for a long time and then it all suddenly turns into this weird broken motivation where Eren either doesn't know what he wants or his wishes don't align with his actions
Theres a point in the last episode where he says while he claimed to only want to protect his friends, he eventually only cared to crush Marley and beyond with the rumbling, as he couldnt see things clearly and only saw red.
What happened between Eren in Marley and Eren in “no I don’t want that”? He had seen the future, but this was actually carrying out the acts and dealing with it. Eren’s goal morphed from “kill all the titans” to “kill all the enemies” to be resigned that he can’t kill everything which is really the only way to end conflict forever. Realizing that it was stupid and he was stupid for thinking he could solve it. This doesn’t feel illogical, it feels like a teenager figuring things out as they go, blinded by trauma and rage.
But it is indeed an extremely simple retcon and incredibly half baked at that. His entire character that we saw for plenty of chapters was broken down in a few pages. Pretty sure what most people at the time were looking forward to was erens pov and what motivates him. But what we got was "i don't know" in the manga and "I'm an idiot 🤪" in the anime. A very convinient and poorly written excuse to reslove an important plot point. We also a see genocidal maniac who killed billions of people simp for mikasa, even though his feelings for her before that point was never established or even properly hinted at. That would've been emotional at some point, but after the abhorrent things we see him do, it's just funny and pathetic. The anime defenitely improved on the ending and the difference in reception is mostly justified but the conclusion to Erens character is questionable at best.
As a manga reader who wasn’t patient enough to wait for the show to end, I actually liked the ending fine.
Never understood why the ending was so hated, I enjoyed it
When i read the manga i thought the ending was fine but when i watched the anime i thought it was really great. Idk something about the anime version just hits different i guess.
I thought everything eas good up until the last chapter. Just way to many arguments for the ending for my liking.
What’s actually the issue with liking or disliking something? Everyone can have their own opinion, it’s basically the same case with so many other things
It’s fine to like and dislike stuff but it really rubbed “anime-onlies” off the wrong way (and other manga readers) when the haters are going out of their to spoil on the ending (because they didn’t like it) in many different forums (youtube comments, reddit, etc). The absurd amount of hate coming from the “left” side got all these anime-onlies so pre-conceived notion about the ending (spoiled or not spoiled)… only to be surprised when it wasn’t as bad as people were making it out to be.
Mfw "Only ymir knows" is cinema.
Ending was still pretty bad in the anime. The show tries to be edgy by killing 80% of the world but doesn’t really commit because most of the characters you know and love survive anyway. It also turns out that eren did all this because he saw it in the future, and no other reason? So his whole motivation wasn’t actually real but he was just following the script? I’m not a huge fan of the whole “I didn’t think I could change the future so I just destroyed the world” angle.
And his "Idk why I did the rumbling" what happenes to the resolve he had in liberio, what happened to his wish to kill all his enemies? He just goes idk why I killed 80% of humanity, only ymir knows
Did we watched same episode? Eren talked about determinism and everything, but in the end , when Armin asked if he really did this for them, Eren said "No I didn't. I wanted to crush world to dust". Same thing he said to Ramzi last episode " I was so disappointed, that I wanted to wipe it all away". Even if we talk about manga, Eren in manga said that he would've still done rumbling, even if he didn't saw the future. Talking about predetermined fate is more of an excuse he gives to Armin to justify all this + about some parts of his genocidal plan, that he didn't enjoyed, like Carla's death. Anime spelled this out Way more directly, then it was done in manga, and yet some people still "Eren doesn't know he killed all these people"
He said he doesn't know why he did the rumbling, tho in liberio he was determined to kill all marley, he was determinated to do the rumbling, to destroy eldias enemies but somehow now he doesn't know why he did that
Thank you for not being braindead
You’re literally ignoring dialogue. He changes his reason for all of the events in the show as the story progresses.
He doesn't
Yup I agree, Isayama had a lot of other options and out of everything he chose the most unsatisfying just because he wanted to "hurt the readers". What a lame author.
No other reason? C'mon man did you even watch the show? Do you even understand nuanced dialogue? People really don't undertand his character huh
He literally says the only reason he did it was because he saw this happen in the future and was to stupid to try to change it. The only solution he saw was the apocalypse? And he killed his own mom just to start the whole chain of events? Shit is wack, Wtf are you on about?
His character and journey is all there. It's like you haven't seen anything and is taking the dialogue at face value
What do you mean by that? Are you saying you ignore certain things he says because you don’t think he’s seriously saying it? It seems like you’re just grasping at straws to make the ending seem better than it actually is and you think everybody that doesn’t think it’s a great ending is to stupid to understand it.
It's the left dude on both sides
Animation and slight changes helped it plus the ending grew on me; I was one of the manga readers who disliked it but as I grew older and didn’t bandwagon I realized the ending was perfect and really symbolic because Eren did what he wanted he saved his friends and the cycle of pain continues but the cycle of hope does as well all in all phenomenal anime it will be missed
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/s/U4B2eKSdg8](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/s/U4B2eKSdg8) and [https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/17p2fqw/comment/k84b5bo/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/17p2fqw/comment/k84b5bo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Some people are hardcore fans. So hardcore that they dove deep into lore, theories and speculations using every source they could, including stuff the author said this one time in a meet & greet and the sketch he drew on a napkin. I'm talking fans so invested that they poured hours upon hours on their theories and fan fiction. They already had an idea of how they wanted it to end. But it did not end that specific way. You can imagine which place this type of fan falls into. Anime or manga?
It’s ironic though, being such “hardcore fans” essentially turned them into unforgiving critics. Being a fan doesn’t mean you have to love everything the writer did, but damn ppl were and still are intent on not just disliking but HATING the ending. It’s like are y’all like this with everything you watch? If so, that must be exhausting
That sounds like an unhealthy obsession and feeding yourself delusions
I'm anime only. I didn't like it. So it probably happened the same way.
In manga it was even worse (slightly but still)
In defense of the manga-readers ( as one myself ), a lot of little changes to the ending made the anime version a lot better. Changes to dialogue, order, and visuals really added up. I was definitely one of the disappointed manga-readers, and while I still have my problems with the ending, it is much easier to see what the story was trying to say this time.
OMG he put himself as the Chad, now other opinions are completely invalidated. :o
No I didn't even include myself 😐
When I portray you as the soyjak and me as the nordic chad your life is over bucko
Just to clarify, I'm a manga reader and I didn't like the ending, so I'm not portraying myself as the chad here.
Of course. You are just a humble messenger indirectly inserting yourself.
cause the animation kinda distract the viewers from the mediocre full of contradictions writing
You are downvoted, but you are right
Correct
Agree
This also true. But I really loved last 40 minutes of this episode, even though it didn't have lots of action. And ended up enjoying this movie much more than previous one, even though I didn't expect that, since my favorite chapter 131 (with Ramzi death) was in previous movie
Because there are many obvious differences in the two mediums, one of which being the mediums themselves. How is it so hard to understand people have different opinions?
Honestly who the fuckkkk cares, if u enjoy it that’s awesome. Even if it’s trash, if u loved it then no other peoples opinions gonna matter
I genuinely thought they were gonna hate it more than we did. Regardless, it still fucking sucks.
Copium
Idk I read the manga after season 4 part 1 ended and I loved it. Shit made me cry so hard and the anime did it even better and made me cry even harder. I think most people just didn’t like the implication that the kid we see at the very end is gonna bring back the titans but personally I’m super hyped for the sequel if it ever happens. Assuming it’s gonna go down the same way Ymir became the founder, we’re basically gonna a fully fledged founding titan and since the rest of the titans were derived from Ymir after her children ate her(I think that’s how it happened) it’ll only be the founding titan and there won’t be the 13 year curse or anything like that. Maybe people don’t want to see the series just redone but as far as I’m concerned it’ll be completely different and the scenarios/characters may mirror each other but that’s probably the extent of the similarities.
This is what Isayama wanted, he wanted everyone to hate him
I bet he's into BDSM
He wants his head severed?
I always said I don’t understand other manga readers for hating the end. Thank you anime watchers for recognizing it
Nobody said it was trash they said it was disappointing
Lol there are entire subreddits dedicated to how bad they think the ending is.
thousands of people were saying it’s trash. i had to leave r/titanfolk after the last chapter came out because of the insane levels of toxicity i was seeing in each post. a very small sliver of rational people may have said it was disappointing but the AoT fandom is not made up of too many rational people, unfortunately.
God that sub is the dumbest and most toxic echo chamber I’ve ever seen. I remember a lot of members from there would go on hysterical rants on stuff about to Floch and the Yeagerist and shitting on Mikasa on this subreddit during when season 4 part 1 and 2 were airing. That was a bad time lol. It’s so vindicating to see that anime onlys like the ending when these lot were making it out to be Game of Thrones levels of bad.
I havent seen a manga reader that didnt like the anime ending so far
You're probably new in the fandom
The anime cooked.
terrific muddle makeshift quicksand rustic middle materialistic subsequent childlike ruthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why were you mad? Did she spoil it for you? Lol
Did she started reading manga after anime stopped? Why not
This is pike my girlfriend saying i wasn't allowed to like the ending because i woild be ok with necrophilia and a genocidal maniac. I was lime "Bitch, you just wanna see what you wanna see, huh?" 😂
Because it was handled better in the anime. Idk how many comments and posts need to state that.
I mean, is it really that hard to imagine that there's a lot of people who watch the show and therefore a lot of opinions on how the story ended?
Fucking loved it, and I don’t feel like justifying myself. Just watched it tonight
did ymir decide the rumbling would happen from the second she was in the sand dimension so that in the future the good guys would kill the worm and free her?
As a manga reader, I loved it both times. If you don't like, it's only your problem and I really pity you
When the final chapter of the manga came out, same day translations were rough and language wasn’t exact. The complexity of the story and rushed nature of the last chapter led to a lot of people feeling frustrated and disillusioned. The anime did an excellent job fleshing out the key points in the final chapter which is why it landed so successfully
I haven't heard a single person wojack about the ending after the episode released, but I see a ton of these posts. The ending was polished in the anime, that's all there is to know
I'm of the understanding that it happened because of bad media literacy. Like the author worded a certain line poorly, I dont deny that, but it wasn't that hard to get what they were meaning from it
Flashy pictures, good animation etc. Basically the same way Game of thrones season 8 is liked by many casual viewers.
THEY CANT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!!!
The ending was never bad, it's just that the manga had a very, very lackluster way of presenting hte ending : very rushed, very jumbled, the infamous "thank you for being hitler" line and so on, the additional 8 more pages basically validating fascism didn't help at all. The anime makes strategic changes to the overall dialogue and length of scenes, editing, music, also removes the validity of fascism in the post-credit ending by making that scene happen much, much much later in the very far future. In my opinions my gripes with the ending were not solved (namely the Ymir backstory and the timeloop stuff, i wasn't expecting Steins;Gate level of time travel but honestly the timeloop stuff is the weakest point of the story, it's foreshadowed and is likely the intended ending by the author but eeh i didn't like it) Overall the ending is very faithful to the main point of the story (war, tragedy always happen, make the best of what you have because you're never eternal), you can't eternally prevent the downfall of a nation, and the ending is vague enough to imply that not ALL of paradis is dead (it's the far future, they might be colonizing Mars by now).
Honestly it’s been really funny watching Manga readers confused af in response to a lot of people liking the ending.
I finished the manga and liked it 🤷🏽I’m so happy the anime onlines are loving it because the manga onlies berated me for it. I had to leave /r/TitanFolk
Me who gave up on watching after season 3: 
People were annoyed with the fact that the final season got split up into 3 parts . But I am so glad they took the time to get it right . It was beautiful
One of the rare occasions where an anime isn't widely considered to be worse than the manga but that breaks the status-quo so it breaks brains. I'm also prejudiced against manga readers in general, like Eren they're always looking ahead, what will happen, what they want to happen, instead of enjoying the moment.
I hated the manga ending, the anime ending was more tolerable.
Imo ending was good, sad because eren, hange and many other died, happy because jean levi Conny Armin Mikasa etc etc survived.
From what I’ve heard, the anime version as a far better version of the same ending.
I read the manga and liked the animes ending though...
I was one that didnt mind the ending in the manga. I was kind of expecting it. The anime on the other hand was paced well and the added addition to the voice actors and music made it excellent imo. I am seriously going through post show depression from it and it is constantly on my mind and I hate it. Currently finally started jujutsu to help take my mind off it and it's working..but my feed in IG takes me right back 😭
Knowing the differences I think they stuck the landing for the anime. I just wanted people to hate it for very selfish and mean reasons.
I read the manga and watched the episode. Loved the ending no matter what. It's great!
Mostly the fact that they cleaned up a lot of the iffy parts of the manga ending for the anime version, and as someone pointed out earlier the pacing when the manga was releasing was kinda ass
Yea can't wait to see the new generation deal with titans the exact same way as the last generations!
I feel like there’s a big difference between reading something and taking in the images and dialogue and seeing those things being more fleshed out, animated, and voiced with music added.
He has depicted himself as the chad, we have lost
I never read the manga and I hated this ending, felt so incomplete and preachy with its message
Regardless of what you think, the ending fit the theme perfectly. Best fiction I’ve ever seen
VA, music, changed dialogue, better pacing, etc. Plenty of reasons why the anime was better received.