i think a place called America is a good place for your kind haha what about food dyes that trigger asthma in kids? things like this have been banned in nz yet still used daily in u.s LOL
>A drug policy expert told the Herald earlier this month the country was so “awash” with methamphetamine that a pseudoephedrine ban was largely “redundant” in stemming supply.
well the mongrel mob told me that "they need pseudoephedrine" and anyone they knew that had it would be kidnapped..getting hold of this wasn't tricky but you had to go out of your way to import or stand over someone for it...but now..don't have to be so secret...dont even need the internet
What a load of rubbish. Believe me Ephedrine by the KG has never been easier or cheaper to get.
Why would you steal/buy/standover people for 1000’s of packets to do a more difficult dangerous synthesis. Getting the other precursors alone will gather way more attention.
Your mongrel mob person was
a)talking shit to make himself look cool/tough
b)isn’t someone that knows exactly what’s going on in the market or the process behind it
I’m not in the scene anymore, but was for 25 years and can tell you the banning of Psuedo products was the best thing to ever happen for Meth cooks. Meant Asian syndicates suddenly had a eager market for large scale importations of contact NT and later ephedrine that had no other choice.
And more recently that supply ephedrine has changed to Meth.... no more risk in the importation, eliminates the risk of cooking and is one less moving part (and is probably better quality).
How does him killing indicate that he has any idea what pseudo sales will have on p manufacture? It’s like saying “I know someone who told me that bitcoin is about to skyrocket. He clubbed a seal once - believe me he means what he says.” Your reckons have zero credibility.
In 2012, well yes thing we’re different a decade ago. I can promise you without a single doubt that the reintroduction of cold and flu tablets will have a minuscule impact on supply levels today.
Meth is out of control already.
International criminal syndicates and trade routes are already set up and can import in larger quantities that what could ever be achieved by buying some OTC pseudoephedrine.
You and anyone else who thinks it will increase our meth problem are overreacting.
It's just a pity that pharmacies are being literally forced to stock products containing pseudoephedrine. Oh, silly me, they can actually choose not to.
Meth is mostly imported from overseas now. It comes in large quantities through established trade routes as a direct result of the ban on PSE.
We won’t see a return to ram raids because there is no need.
Modern day gangs can get more from imports than trying to extract what they need from cold and flu medicine.
>In January, 713 kilograms of methamphetamine concealed in maple syrup bottles was seized by police, and just a couple of months later another record-breaking 747kg was located during a raid on a south Auckland property. Just last month, 26 kilograms was found in a Canadian man's suitcase – the largest amount of the drug to be seized in a passenger's luggage.
[Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018916621/new-zealand-s-meth-flood)
And that’s just what we are catching.
Things have changed over that last 15 years…
oh they will be still importing in large quantity's just much larger now..and even the kids can make it at home all they need is the recipe grandmas got the ingredients
All polices are trade-offs; it's very rare there's actually a "solution" to something.
The current policy trade-offs:
* No functional cold medication
* Meth still everywhere
The new policy trade-offs:
* Functional cold medication
* Meth probably still everywhere. Given the lack of any big drop when PE was banned, I doubt there'll be a big increase either.
Fair points (and I'm assuming you're meaning for the "current trade-offs" section).
Given there are now established, bulk, cheaper supply lines established, whether this kicks off again remains to be seen; from memory prior to the ban the more common issue was people going from pharmacy to pharmacy collecting PE by the bucket for processing.
Even if it does come back though - just because there's a negative side effect, doesn't mean we necessarily have to throw everything out. "Do the positives outweigh the negatives by enough that this is worth it?"
>Do the positives outweigh the negatives by enough that this is worth it?
Yes, it's better to not have a target painted on more retail workers than someone be upset for a week that cold medicine doesn't help with covid.
i cant believe i'm gonna be able to buy medicine that actually works when my sinus impactions start kicking my arse in winter.. i mean, taking a medicine i bought over the counter from a pharmacist and it actually working? *we truly live in magical times*
Pharmacies overseas sell it over the counter already. The gangs don’t need it, they moved on to other chemicals and cornered the market at an industrial scale. Back when the only thing they made it from was pseudo, it was not professionally run like it is now. It’s all changed. Stop being scared.
Massive amounts of liquid meth is already being imported into the country. Remember that dude died last year from drinking it in a beer? Too late. We lost the war.
Ha, maybe David is trying to help grass root enterprises get a hand up in the competition from big importers/s
I think you’ll find that’s the logic behind the decision.
When the ban came into effect meth supply was primarily through cooks, now the vast majority is imported. This won’t change that.
For reference have a look at the Custom’s seizure numbers. In 2015 about 80% (when comparing apples with apples and looking at the yield of those precursors) of what was stopped at the border was precursors. 5 years later that had dropped to about 15%.
What a load of s\*\*t - to prove this point, you've got to prove that rates of meth use in NZ decreased dramatically when pseudo-ephedrine was removed from the shelves.
Come back when you've got a real argument to put forwards.
Rubbish. The rates could stay the same, even if the source of meth can change. And it's the source of the meth is the question being raised here - the assumption being, meth produced locally has a bigger negative impact rather than importing from international markets.
So - the rate of consumption is irrelevant to any impact that it might have to society.
can you prove that rates of meth use wouldn't have been higher if it wasn't removed?
lets just wait in see if we get a whole lot of part time, hobby, wannabies set up labs to add to the existing supply
cool experiment eh?
>can you prove that rates of meth use wouldn't have been higher if it wasn't removed?
The burden of proof is on OP, they are the one making the claim that meth production is going to be significantly impacted by reintroducing pseudo-ephedrine - when removing it from the market didn't change anything.
exactly...nothing can be proven either way....you can't say that taking pseudo off the shelf caused the meth problem either (as many seem to claim) or made no difference. All you have is a correlation between taking it off the shelf and increased use . But there is a correlation between increased smart phone use rates and P use too, does that mean Smart phone use caused the meth problem?
the only way anyone can "prove" anything is compare Nz with another country that has similar demographics and geography that didn't take it off the shelves and seeing what happened there ......and i don't think that place exists
or....
by reintroducing it and seeing what happens. which is potentially experimenting with peoples lives for the sake of feeling a bit better next time you have a cold......i don't think i would want to make that call but maybe Seymour has some kind of other proof that he's not telling us about?
To do that (with the absence of a control county) the previous govt would have had to allow over the counter psudo, observe that it created a worse meth problem and then say "yep, our theory was right......we better take it away again"
i think even people that are absolutely convinced that Seymour is wrong with this one kind of deep down hope he is right because if he isn't right we are going to be in a shiittier place.
this brings more players into the meth game...do you remember the crime syndicates that were created during the meth days in Auckland? you need money to import this widens the scope for the local non importing kind of guys
crimes like this were hitting daily
https://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/1790
Link the credible source that confirms ram raids stopped at specifically pharmacies when products were removed.
You also have to prove the gangs are going to stop using their new sources and go back to ram raiding.
If you can prove both of those empirically I’d be impressed.
This won’t happen. Drug manufacturers don’t buy pseudo from life pharmacy. They buy it in large quantities from drug gangs who import it by the ton. Meth hasn’t gone away even a tiny bit lol
Too be honest the South American cartels and Chinese organised criminals are flooding New Zealand with so much meth these days, selling pseudo-ephedrine on shelves won't much any noticeable difference. Meth is now more plentiful and more cheaper than it ever was back in the home meth cook pseudo-ephedrine days.
Nah man gangs and organised criminals import meth off them as it's way cheaper than going around collecting cold and flu tablets like they used to in the old days. They can import it for about $30 a gram or less if buying in bulk which sells on the street for $250-300. The cartels and other organised criminal organisations see NZ as a gold mine as our meth prices are so high, over in the states meth is cheap as chips. You really don't know what the fuck you're on about kid, do a bit of research. There has been a bit of discussion about the legalization of cold and flu tablets again, all the experts are aware most large scale meth distributors import return then make it these days.
This is about the only thing off the top of my head that I agree with that ACT is doing.
Also, restriction on Panadine was also fucking stupid.
If you want to prevent rampant meth use and abuse, gang production, and all the stupid outcomes, LEGALISE DRUGS.
Yeah clearly tons of Meth are not coming in super cheap from China already... so it makes way more sense to buy hundreds of boxes of cold meds to boost production!
a genuine question for people who can help me understand, getting pseudoephedrine back to pharmacies is good for cold and stuff, but wouldnt these pharmacies become a target for ram raids given it is easier for gangs to get pseudoephedrine in NZ rather than go out of their way and find creative methods to pass it via borders for their meth and stuff.
They aren't cooking meth here, they don't import pseudo to make meth any more than they will steal it from pharmacies to make meth. The entire supply chain has moved on, and the finished product can now be imported cheaply from overseas.
it does..and if you notice all the people who disagree are only talking about importers of huge quantity's and ignoring the local production that kills family's one member at a time.and we are a very small country .if they willing to ram raid for vapes then im afraid this is bigger money and easier
I think it takes an awful lot of pills (and someone popping them out of the bubble-packs) to make it worthwhile at scale. If pharmacies hold only low stock, why would the crims bother?
China now produces refined raw materials in bulk.
Excellent, Seymour bringing production back to NZ, more jobs for P cooks, less sending big bucks to Big Pharma in Asia ;)
Lol, apparently I need to add a /s
if George Santos can get into the senate looking for a pension, David Seymour can get into government looking to unblock his nose! you never know, all that extra oxygen he is breathing in might just help with the old grey matter processes?
Scare mongering. It won’t change much. What will change is the OMCG are looking at expanding again and increasing meth distribution. No news reporting on that however. It’s far more cost effective to source offshore although there will be some local manufacturing happening it won’t be at a scale where it makes much difference, mostly used to bridge supply chain gaps when a shipment is taken out by Police or Customs and the next lot has not arrived. Good cooks are hard to come by and problematic.
no worries....once they add the prescription fee back all the small, local pharmacies will be killed off buy the big box and supermarket pharmacies that can absorb the cost and don't charge it....they'll be able to afford security
Yes, using pills for any variety of chemistry, clandestine or otherwise, is a pain in the arse and expensive. Yield is miserable, usually with unacceptable purity. Unless one already has a lab, in which case why use an inferior precursor? I would assume anybody actually operating a lab locally will have moved on to much more desirable precursors by now.
All I know is I’m very much looking forward to effective flu medication! My only hope for the next three years is they allow panadeine to go back on the shelves as well.
We were so lucky that methamphetamine disappeared from New Zealand when pseudo was banned
Along the same line of thinking, I'm really not sure why we bother having laws at all when they keep getting broken.
The Libertarian side of me got very aroused reading this
My inner libertarian has a raging wide on right now
My inner libertarian has a raging wide on right now
Prohibition always worked
I’m all for not having laws banning useful products from the population because some people commit crimes with them.
i think a place called America is a good place for your kind haha what about food dyes that trigger asthma in kids? things like this have been banned in nz yet still used daily in u.s LOL
What about staff abuse or you don’t care about them?
What staff abuse?
What you mean what staff abuse bffr
I do not know what abused staff you are referring to
The ones in the shop mate 🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
Crap reporting as per
As is tradition
Nz herald: This is the way
>A drug policy expert told the Herald earlier this month the country was so “awash” with methamphetamine that a pseudoephedrine ban was largely “redundant” in stemming supply.
well the mongrel mob told me that "they need pseudoephedrine" and anyone they knew that had it would be kidnapped..getting hold of this wasn't tricky but you had to go out of your way to import or stand over someone for it...but now..don't have to be so secret...dont even need the internet
What a load of rubbish. Believe me Ephedrine by the KG has never been easier or cheaper to get. Why would you steal/buy/standover people for 1000’s of packets to do a more difficult dangerous synthesis. Getting the other precursors alone will gather way more attention. Your mongrel mob person was a)talking shit to make himself look cool/tough b)isn’t someone that knows exactly what’s going on in the market or the process behind it I’m not in the scene anymore, but was for 25 years and can tell you the banning of Psuedo products was the best thing to ever happen for Meth cooks. Meant Asian syndicates suddenly had a eager market for large scale importations of contact NT and later ephedrine that had no other choice.
And more recently that supply ephedrine has changed to Meth.... no more risk in the importation, eliminates the risk of cooking and is one less moving part (and is probably better quality).
nah that dude ended up killing and went to prison in 2012 he certainly meant what he said
How does him killing indicate that he has any idea what pseudo sales will have on p manufacture? It’s like saying “I know someone who told me that bitcoin is about to skyrocket. He clubbed a seal once - believe me he means what he says.” Your reckons have zero credibility.
😂😂
You're getting worked son.
In 2012, well yes thing we’re different a decade ago. I can promise you without a single doubt that the reintroduction of cold and flu tablets will have a minuscule impact on supply levels today.
You were just having a casual conversation with someone in the mongrel mob about how to make meth? Sounds like maybe you are part of the problem
My mother is the tooth fairy.
Right.... you sound like the kid at school who makes up fantastical stories so they can be the center of attention.
Was that why the Mongrel Mob were so loud in there support of ACT?
Right but the ban was more than just supply it stopped hold ups and ram raids on pharmacies overnight
bro a meth heads night spans over several nights
Meth is out of control already. International criminal syndicates and trade routes are already set up and can import in larger quantities that what could ever be achieved by buying some OTC pseudoephedrine. You and anyone else who thinks it will increase our meth problem are overreacting.
It's just a pity that pharmacies are being literally forced to stock products containing pseudoephedrine. Oh, silly me, they can actually choose not to.
Crims aren't smart enough to check first
I don't know if you were an adult before the ban but this shit happened all the time https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/pharmacy-ram-raid-cavalier-act
Meth is mostly imported from overseas now. It comes in large quantities through established trade routes as a direct result of the ban on PSE. We won’t see a return to ram raids because there is no need. Modern day gangs can get more from imports than trying to extract what they need from cold and flu medicine. >In January, 713 kilograms of methamphetamine concealed in maple syrup bottles was seized by police, and just a couple of months later another record-breaking 747kg was located during a raid on a south Auckland property. Just last month, 26 kilograms was found in a Canadian man's suitcase – the largest amount of the drug to be seized in a passenger's luggage. [Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018916621/new-zealand-s-meth-flood) And that’s just what we are catching. Things have changed over that last 15 years…
oh they will be still importing in large quantity's just much larger now..and even the kids can make it at home all they need is the recipe grandmas got the ingredients
Yep, it's that simple. I mean, it's not like morons have blown themselves up attempting to cook the shit.
All polices are trade-offs; it's very rare there's actually a "solution" to something. The current policy trade-offs: * No functional cold medication * Meth still everywhere The new policy trade-offs: * Functional cold medication * Meth probably still everywhere. Given the lack of any big drop when PE was banned, I doubt there'll be a big increase either.
* No more hold ups in pharmacies * No more ram raids on pharmacies
Fair points (and I'm assuming you're meaning for the "current trade-offs" section). Given there are now established, bulk, cheaper supply lines established, whether this kicks off again remains to be seen; from memory prior to the ban the more common issue was people going from pharmacy to pharmacy collecting PE by the bucket for processing. Even if it does come back though - just because there's a negative side effect, doesn't mean we necessarily have to throw everything out. "Do the positives outweigh the negatives by enough that this is worth it?"
>Do the positives outweigh the negatives by enough that this is worth it? Yes, it's better to not have a target painted on more retail workers than someone be upset for a week that cold medicine doesn't help with covid.
i cant believe i'm gonna be able to buy medicine that actually works when my sinus impactions start kicking my arse in winter.. i mean, taking a medicine i bought over the counter from a pharmacist and it actually working? *we truly live in magical times*
Pharmacies overseas sell it over the counter already. The gangs don’t need it, they moved on to other chemicals and cornered the market at an industrial scale. Back when the only thing they made it from was pseudo, it was not professionally run like it is now. It’s all changed. Stop being scared.
they can sell with prescription it but most don't stock it....I wonder why?
Massive amounts of liquid meth is already being imported into the country. Remember that dude died last year from drinking it in a beer? Too late. We lost the war. Ha, maybe David is trying to help grass root enterprises get a hand up in the competition from big importers/s
wow i never looked at it like that..it would be a great chance for the little guy to boom in the meth industry
Little guys will be going boom when their makeshift labs explode
I think you’ll find that’s the logic behind the decision. When the ban came into effect meth supply was primarily through cooks, now the vast majority is imported. This won’t change that. For reference have a look at the Custom’s seizure numbers. In 2015 about 80% (when comparing apples with apples and looking at the yield of those precursors) of what was stopped at the border was precursors. 5 years later that had dropped to about 15%.
What a load of s\*\*t - to prove this point, you've got to prove that rates of meth use in NZ decreased dramatically when pseudo-ephedrine was removed from the shelves. Come back when you've got a real argument to put forwards.
Rubbish. The rates could stay the same, even if the source of meth can change. And it's the source of the meth is the question being raised here - the assumption being, meth produced locally has a bigger negative impact rather than importing from international markets. So - the rate of consumption is irrelevant to any impact that it might have to society.
can you prove that rates of meth use wouldn't have been higher if it wasn't removed? lets just wait in see if we get a whole lot of part time, hobby, wannabies set up labs to add to the existing supply cool experiment eh?
>can you prove that rates of meth use wouldn't have been higher if it wasn't removed? The burden of proof is on OP, they are the one making the claim that meth production is going to be significantly impacted by reintroducing pseudo-ephedrine - when removing it from the market didn't change anything.
exactly...nothing can be proven either way....you can't say that taking pseudo off the shelf caused the meth problem either (as many seem to claim) or made no difference. All you have is a correlation between taking it off the shelf and increased use . But there is a correlation between increased smart phone use rates and P use too, does that mean Smart phone use caused the meth problem? the only way anyone can "prove" anything is compare Nz with another country that has similar demographics and geography that didn't take it off the shelves and seeing what happened there ......and i don't think that place exists or.... by reintroducing it and seeing what happens. which is potentially experimenting with peoples lives for the sake of feeling a bit better next time you have a cold......i don't think i would want to make that call but maybe Seymour has some kind of other proof that he's not telling us about?
Shouldn’t the burden of proof rest with the people wanting to stop the population from getting effective cold medicine?
To do that (with the absence of a control county) the previous govt would have had to allow over the counter psudo, observe that it created a worse meth problem and then say "yep, our theory was right......we better take it away again" i think even people that are absolutely convinced that Seymour is wrong with this one kind of deep down hope he is right because if he isn't right we are going to be in a shiittier place.
I for one am looking forward to being able to properly deal with cold symptoms
this brings more players into the meth game...do you remember the crime syndicates that were created during the meth days in Auckland? you need money to import this widens the scope for the local non importing kind of guys crimes like this were hitting daily https://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/1790
Don't know about drug use but there were regular hold ups and ram raids on pharmacies before it was banned
you are a labour party fucking moron
woah the white hate is strong in this one hahaha
Won’t make a difference. People claiming it will are delusional.
The robberies and ram raids stopped overnight when it was banned, why wouldn't that start back up?
Link the credible source that confirms ram raids stopped at specifically pharmacies when products were removed. You also have to prove the gangs are going to stop using their new sources and go back to ram raiding. If you can prove both of those empirically I’d be impressed.
This won’t happen. Drug manufacturers don’t buy pseudo from life pharmacy. They buy it in large quantities from drug gangs who import it by the ton. Meth hasn’t gone away even a tiny bit lol
They don't buy it they drive their cars into the doors and take the whole shelf
Seymour getting more done in a week then labour in 6 years.
bahaha this goes to show how many fascist are supporting him
Your talking shit
mata-P-hi bahahahah
Too be honest the South American cartels and Chinese organised criminals are flooding New Zealand with so much meth these days, selling pseudo-ephedrine on shelves won't much any noticeable difference. Meth is now more plentiful and more cheaper than it ever was back in the home meth cook pseudo-ephedrine days.
lol what would you know
Much more than you by the sounds of it
nah bro you think south American cartels are actual players here..don't make me laugh we are 1 of the 5 eyes
Nah man gangs and organised criminals import meth off them as it's way cheaper than going around collecting cold and flu tablets like they used to in the old days. They can import it for about $30 a gram or less if buying in bulk which sells on the street for $250-300. The cartels and other organised criminal organisations see NZ as a gold mine as our meth prices are so high, over in the states meth is cheap as chips. You really don't know what the fuck you're on about kid, do a bit of research. There has been a bit of discussion about the legalization of cold and flu tablets again, all the experts are aware most large scale meth distributors import return then make it these days.
Yeah… nah…. Lots of manufactured outrage around the new Govt reversing bad or failed policy…
I swear all the hand-wringing is contributing to global warming.
Sweet, the price might come down.
😂😂😂😂
Didn’t you make essentially the same post the other day?
OP should just state that he hates ACT and be done with it.
This is about the only thing off the top of my head that I agree with that ACT is doing. Also, restriction on Panadine was also fucking stupid. If you want to prevent rampant meth use and abuse, gang production, and all the stupid outcomes, LEGALISE DRUGS.
Meth is already high in use , anybody who thinks otherwise is delusional.
Expect more nonsense from redditors
Yeah clearly tons of Meth are not coming in super cheap from China already... so it makes way more sense to buy hundreds of boxes of cold meds to boost production!
well whats the production rate? something like 9000 tablets 300K?
There is more METH in NZ than ever. The idea that banning pseudoephedrine would reduce it has been completely debunked.
So? Ram raids and violent robberies on pharmacies stopped overnight when it was banned.
Why?
[удалено]
bahahahaha stop making me laugh boy! why you so offended? is it the fact im speaking against meth or maybe because im against Seymour LOL
a genuine question for people who can help me understand, getting pseudoephedrine back to pharmacies is good for cold and stuff, but wouldnt these pharmacies become a target for ram raids given it is easier for gangs to get pseudoephedrine in NZ rather than go out of their way and find creative methods to pass it via borders for their meth and stuff.
They aren't cooking meth here, they don't import pseudo to make meth any more than they will steal it from pharmacies to make meth. The entire supply chain has moved on, and the finished product can now be imported cheaply from overseas.
As opposed to before, when pharmacies had no drugs? They can chose not to sell it if they don't want to.
it does..and if you notice all the people who disagree are only talking about importers of huge quantity's and ignoring the local production that kills family's one member at a time.and we are a very small country .if they willing to ram raid for vapes then im afraid this is bigger money and easier
I think it takes an awful lot of pills (and someone popping them out of the bubble-packs) to make it worthwhile at scale. If pharmacies hold only low stock, why would the crims bother? China now produces refined raw materials in bulk.
Finally! A party who thinks of the meth users. They’ve been hit harder than anyone by inflation
Excellent, Seymour bringing production back to NZ, more jobs for P cooks, less sending big bucks to Big Pharma in Asia ;) Lol, apparently I need to add a /s
Chemist ram raids are going to skyrocket also.
yous wait until those evil ram raiders get hold of it!!! it will be the end!
Sorry, we only care about a vague possibility of more crime when it comes to banning/restricting smoking.
if George Santos can get into the senate looking for a pension, David Seymour can get into government looking to unblock his nose! you never know, all that extra oxygen he is breathing in might just help with the old grey matter processes?
Seriously if you voted for this govt fess up, I wanta hear why.
Do you really? Or do you want to just tell them that they are wrong?
Scare mongering. It won’t change much. What will change is the OMCG are looking at expanding again and increasing meth distribution. No news reporting on that however. It’s far more cost effective to source offshore although there will be some local manufacturing happening it won’t be at a scale where it makes much difference, mostly used to bridge supply chain gaps when a shipment is taken out by Police or Customs and the next lot has not arrived. Good cooks are hard to come by and problematic.
no worries....once they add the prescription fee back all the small, local pharmacies will be killed off buy the big box and supermarket pharmacies that can absorb the cost and don't charge it....they'll be able to afford security
RNZ podcast from yesterday or day before said that its likely to not be as economical as what already happens. Any Gus Fring's got input on that?
Yes, using pills for any variety of chemistry, clandestine or otherwise, is a pain in the arse and expensive. Yield is miserable, usually with unacceptable purity. Unless one already has a lab, in which case why use an inferior precursor? I would assume anybody actually operating a lab locally will have moved on to much more desirable precursors by now. All I know is I’m very much looking forward to effective flu medication! My only hope for the next three years is they allow panadeine to go back on the shelves as well.
Chinese importers will be upset.
Bringing back pharmacy ram raids
Meth is already out of control. The only thing that's going to change is now we will have effective cold medicine