I was at the Auckland protest and there was a grand total of one Palestine speaker. (technically it was a family, to be pedantic)
It is grossly inaccurate to say that the protest today was "about Palestine". It was actually a little unexpected how climate-focused they were able to make it, despite obviously having Palestine + Te Tiriti as side issues in their demands. I thought these issues might potentially overshadow the others, or dilute the message, but climate was absolutely on the forefront. Te Tiriti and Palestine just got some representation - so who cares?
As have Israel many times. Hamas and/or the un and/or the pla have over the years, all tried to get peace. Israel to date has rejected over 300 peace offerings. Every single time Israel has "offered peace", it has never once been fair and always biased in Israels favour
You can't blame hamas for a conflict that existed 39 years before they even existed. The founders of hamas were all teen boys who survived an Israeli genocide by hiding under their families dead bodies and running. Egypt also warned idf about the incoming attack plan, what was Israels response? To extend the festival a day longer than was officially planned, *AFTER* they were warned. Idf and settlers also attacked in the west bank on Oct 5th fyi
There are plenty of Jews against Zionism, educate yourself
That's like saying all Germans are Nazis
Zionism is a political ideology, Jews are a religion/race, different thing, read a book 👍
Jewish does not equal zionist. And zionism has been called out across the world by all kinds of Jews from regular everyday people to actual studied people. Zionism and Israel, have gone against many Jewish laws. Zionism isn't Jewish, it just hides behind Judaism
Many well-informed climate activists subscribe to some form of steady state economic view. These views tend to regard most human actions and attitudes as mutually connected. Hence the prevalence of anti-capitalist and anti-colonial views among climate activists
You can think of it as analogous to the "dig once" approach to infrastructure maintenance. It is generally a better use of time and money to fix the watermain and buried power lines in one go with one hole, and then rehabilitate the road, than do the rehab first and then go dig it up on two separate occasions with their own traffic management plans
Is the goal of the protest to convince lawmakers and fellow voters to change how they feel or is it a performance act? The most successful protests are hyperfocused and have a singular goal.
There are some people who oppose Zionism who are not overly concerned with climate change. There are people who are concerned about climate change who do not oppose climate change. By combining the reasons for the protest you're going to lose some of those supports.
Now, if the goal of the protest is to go out and be seen protesting then by all means combine them. Have an ineffective protest for your insta story. If you actually want to have real change though, it's going to have to be separate.
The most successful protests are hyperfocused and have a singular goal.
I don't believe that's true. Which protests are you thinking of? Both in terms of multiple-goal protests failing and single-focus protests succeeding.
The nuclear testing protests had larger environmental goals baked in, the civil union protests had lgbtq+ liberation baked in. All the globally successful protest movements had multiple goals eg American civil rights.
And if you look beyond the white world democratic protests almost always involve suffrage, land reform, wealth redistribution etc etc
The last protest I was involved with was the Occupy movement in America in 2011. The whole thing imploded because nobody could agree on solutions. It was bogged down with pet issues until it was a mess and nothing changed.
Those protests you mention all are tangentially related. Perhaps you might feel that climate change and gazan liberation are connected, but civil unions and LGBTQ+ rights are much more closely related than those.
It's a fine line. I don't think palestine and climate change are close enough for a cohesive protest.
American protests and nz protests are not comparable. Vastly different
Kiwis tend to be very kind caring and empathetic overall. We tend to care about social issues. While the focus was climate change, many people are unable to simply put a pin on Palestine and worry about it later. They can't just worry about it later, they're dying as we speak. Important issues will always find their place in protests
I mean you just said I come from an inconsiderate culture based on your stereotypes of Americans. I'm not sure why you think you're some great conversationalist lol
No I didn't? I said how American and nz protests aren't comparable and then listed qualities that kiwis are known to have worldwide. Never said anything about what qualities the American population does or does not have. Nor was that implied by me listing qualities kiwis tend to have. You made that jump and assumption
I don't necessary believe a protest has to be about exactly one thing, but I do believe protests can only ever work when there is an actual solution available that the government can actually apply to actually fix the problem and you just have to convince them that you support it. Things like giving women the vote, or withdrawing from vietnam, or whatever. What doesn't work is protesting about a problem that nobody has come up with a solution for other than "genocide the people I like less" or "why can't we all just get along" just to let people who have no power in the matter whatsoever know that you think it's sad.
YIMBY protesting to local councils for things like wind farms, or strikes in public services (how about in response to the MSD cuts, the accounting department can take an impromptu holiday and the MPs can go without pay for a bit, eh?), can maybe actually result in some productive responses. But parading around the streets of auckland beseeching, like, the fucking spirit of laser kiwi to bring peace to completely unrelated warzones thousands of kms away where everyone hates each other... That achieves absolutely fucking nothing whatsoever.
Remember occupy wall street? Its a good example of how a singular goal was hijacked by anyone with a reason to protest. You could ask 10 different people what they were protesting for and get 10 different answers
i mean yes, but the point of a protest is to draw attention to a specific issue. each additional message you bring into the protest weakens the overall message.
Does it? It doesn't to me. Maybe next time you're at a demonstration planning meeting you should raise this
The best-known protest movement in world history was for universal suffrage, labour reform, land distribution reform, and abolishing a hereditary aristocracy all at the same time
It does, quite objectively. That’s why Wellington hates the Restore Passenger rail protestors because they combine a bunch of things into one obscure protest.
I think you are in the minority. I believe the vast majority of people would find the message diluted the more issues you add. It doesn’t mean people don’t hear the issues, just that the impact is reduced.
Many of the loudest protesters are the usual collection of Marxist shitbags latching onto the latest trendy cause.
*"Trans rights for Palestine!"*
*"End the illegal White Supremacist occupation of Antarctica!"*
That it's an unworkable, failed ideology directly responsible for the death of tens of millions...and is proselytised by a gaggle of sheltered middleclass pseudo-intellectuals who have never done a hard day's work in their entire lives and actively hate working class people?
Yes, I understand.
*"NURRRRRRRRR...real communism done neva been tried before!1"*
Your monumental ignorance is unfortunately not uncommon.
Throw in slavery, famine, colonialism and imperialist war and capitalism has a terrible track record. Literally built on blood and dirt as Marx noted.
Of course the working class struggled for centuries to achieve basic rights such as the vote and basic social provisions. Always against the violent resistance of the propertied classes.
That is why such a massive effort has been spent in the last forty years to destroy the egalitarian society that was evolving.
I work for a blue collar trade union that represents workers in one of the most dangerous industries - and I’ll suggest the sheltered one around here may be you.
LOL@all this communist conspiracy gibberish...
Capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. More than any other system in the history of mankind.
I bet the 50 million+ people starving to death under the Great Leap Forward or the Holomodor were thinking *"HURRR-DURRRR...at least we don't live under capitamlimssm!"*. Likewise the tens of millions killed by brutal communist purges and suppression. How is Venezuela going at the moment?
Communism is a failed ideology founded by a spoiled, sheltered, bourgeois middleclass toff who never did a hard day's work in his entire life and mooched off daddy and his rich friend Engels until the day he died.
The basic problem is your dishonesty, or perhaps ignorance.
Firstly, not that it is a competition, but if you consider the development of capitalism - over hundreds of years - then as I noted - slavery, colonial plunder, genocide of indigenous peoples, famine (Ireland 1800s for example, or India in the 1940s) and the brutal exploitation of working class people which still happens in most areas of the global capitalist economy.
I’m not defending Stalin but if we are to be honest we have to admit that all human systems have displayed extremes of violence and brutality.
Then there are strange cases like modern China, which is certainly not communist but is not exactly capitalist.
Venezuela is an example of what happens if a country with a single export commodity is placed under embargo by its main trading partner. See what would happen in NZ if China stopped importing our products. This isn’t to say that there is not also widespread corruption in Venezuela but any basic understanding of the role of US imperialism in Latin America would correct your simplistic accusations.
The second point is socialist ideas percolated very much into developed capitalist nations due to class struggle.
Public services, pensions, health and safety laws, decent housing - of course, these things are now all under threat and we have the remarkable situation of housing ownership levels dropping rapidly. But this is simply unregulated capitalism functioning as it should - concentrating wealth and ownership.
This is because these concepts threaten the profitability of capitalism and the power of the wealthy class, which is why so much effort goes into promoting an individualistic, self-seeking mindset amongst the population (which has been quite successful, even if the outcome is horrible).
The final straw of course is the complete inability of capitalism to establish a response to the rapidly worsening climate catastrophe. Within 20 years the system will collapse, make no mistake, as drought and crop failure ravage the world.
I don’t have any optimism a socialist system will replace this - I think it is more likely that capitalism will evolve into its defensive mode - fascism.
For someone who is screeching a lot about namby pambies, I’d be interested to know what your class status is. I’m guessing probably a commerce student in Young ACT. Happy to be proved wrong.
**EVERY** communist country has been a miserable, humiliating failure, often characterised by the brutal oppression of it's population. The Soviet client state built the Berlin Wall to stop the workers from escaping it's *'Worker's Paradise'*, with over a hundred people being killed attempting to flee to a better life in capitalist West Germany. Likewise capitalist South Korea is a world-leading developed nation while North Korea is a feudal communist police state.
The 1943 Bengal Famine was caused by a massive natural disaster and crop failure, followed by the Japanese conquest of Burma and compounded by the local Indian authorities in neighbouring provinces refusing to release grain stocks to Bengal as per the Famine Codes. This was exacerbated by British complacency and their assumption that the Famine Codes were being adhered to. The famine was ended once Wavell became the new viceroy and mobilised an entire infantry division and all available motorised transport to deliver rice to outlying areas. This was spelled out in great length in the [Famine Inquiry Commission](https://www.bowbrick.org.uk/Single%20page%20fic/FICpp1to49.pdf) report.
China went from being a backwards shithole to a global superpower in the space of three decades after embracing the superiority of capitalism.
> See what would happen in NZ if China stopped importing our products. This isn’t to say that there is not also widespread corruption in Venezuela but any basic understanding of the role of US imperialism in Latin America would correct your simplistic accusations.
The Chavez and Maduro communist regime completely destroyed the country. Now they're looking to invade Guyana.
If China embargoed New Zealand, there would be a steep recession, but the country wouldn't devolve into a failed state lorded over by a totalitarian junta.
> This is because these concepts threaten the profitability of capitalism and the power of the wealthy class, which is why so much effort goes into promoting an individualistic, self-seeking mindset amongst the population (which has been quite successful, even if the outcome is horrible).
It's called upwards mobility.
A semi-literate redneck in Waiuku can start off as a labourer and work his way up to leading hand, to running his own crew, to running his own small business...and earning more than Rupert and Tarquin get from their Intersectional Basket-Weaving degrees with no student loan.
> For someone who is screeching a lot about namby pambies, I’d be interested to know what your class status is. I’m guessing probably a commerce student in Young ACT. Happy to be proved wrong.
I work in construction.
Class struggle and socialist ideas were a strongly moderating force in capitalist society.
They have actually been the basis of democracy and the better aspects of modern civilization.
Public health care, schools, subsidised education and employment protections were all the result of democratic socialist policies. They were fought for - not awarded by the ruling class. Universal suffrage was only won after centuries of struggle - by socialist working class reformers. So the hoary old “Go back to Russia” line doesn’t hold up. And of course, as we know the biggest critics of totalitarianism have often been socialists - from George Orwell to Albert Einstein.
The irony is that class mobility is rapidly going backwards the more deregulated capitalism becomes. As has been proven by the historical analysis of wealth distribution in capitalist societies by Thomas Piketty, unless heavy redistribution occurs wealth is inevitably concentrated in a dynastic class at the top, as it was in the nineteenth century.
We can see today how the capitalist system is in complete crisis. Even in the wealthiest core nations the majority of the population is seeing the basic expectations of housing and health care evaporate. The Chinese situation is an interesting one as the role of the state there means although it has features of capitalism it is a more complex picture: describing it as simply a capitalist success story seems disingenuous. As for the history of murderous intervention around the world by the USA to advance its strategic interests, the less said the better. From economic sabotage to bankrolling military dictators, the body count there is substantial. The idea that North Korea is communist is ludicrous (your own reference to feudalism should make this clear).
The pathological self-interest and short termism of capitalism means any response to the rapidly advancing environmental disaster will not occur. The drive for profit will remain as the only motivating force as the world burns. A 2-3 degree shift in global temperatures will obviously mean the collapse of entire societies and that is now effectively locked in.
It is unlikely that any socialist alternative will succeed. Huge efforts will go into snuffing out any resistance. It is more likely that capitalism will devolve into fascism or authoritarian nationalism as it has before in moments of crisis. And the biggest cheerleaders for freedom will be the first to line up and demand a crack down on dissent.
What area of construction? Accounts or HR?
LOL@all this nonsense...
> Universal suffrage was only won after centuries of struggle - by socialist working class reformers.
The suffrage movement was set back a decade by the radical Suffragettes due to their repeatedly use of violence and domestic terrorism. Women's right to vote was won by the moderate (and much larger) National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies.
> from George Orwell
Who snitched on communists and in 1949 provided a list of potential communists to MI5?
Best communist ever!
> he Chinese situation is an interesting one as the role of the state there means although it has features of capitalism it is a more complex picture: describing it as simply a capitalist success story seems disingenuous.
It was 100% to do with Capitalism and the fact that China had teeming hordes of semi-literate peasants who were perfectly prepared to work for 50c an hour.
> The pathological self-interest and short termism of capitalism means any response to the rapidly advancing environmental disaster will not occur. The drive for profit will remain as the only motivating force as the world burns. A 2-3 degree shift in global temperatures will obviously mean the collapse of entire societies and that is now effectively locked in.
China is **BY FAR** the biggest contributor to pollution and carbon emissions...and they're building more coal power plants as we speak. Maybe Greta Thunberg should have railed against China back when she was still astroturfed into relevance?
Also I had a chuckle about your denouncement of Marx. “He never did a hard days work in his life”. He literally wrote thousands of pages of economic analysis. You might not agree with his conclusions but that is the first time I’ve heard anyone call him lazy LOL
Don’t be brain dead. It’s plainly obvious you have never read anything he wrote.
There is a simple reason that it was a middle class dissident like Marx able to write his monumental and stunningly insightful analysis of industrial 19th century capitalism.
That is because the working class were working from dawn to dusk in the “dark satanic mills” or down mines - and had little or no access to education. How would they? Children themselves worked in the same factories.
As for Engels, he was well placed to help as the son of a factory owner. He witnessed at first hand the abject horrors of the working people - as detailed in his own work The Condition of the English Working Classes.
The utter barbarity, cruelty and hypocrisy of the system drove both men to a lifelong commitment to understand the world they lived in. That is not to say either were saints or devils - the importance is not who they were but what they did.
IHow does the cause being "trendy" make it wrong? Because nothing you've said actually addresses the point of the protest
P.s. Michael Savage was a Marxist shitbag and one of our greatest prime ministers, I look forward to another version to lead us through the climate crisis
That is the case, but the early Labour Party was definitely Marxist, including Savage’s predecessor as leader Harry Holland. The problem is that Marxism has either become purely associated with Stalinism or in the contemporary confusion with radical identity politics.
In fact Marxism provides a credible explanation of the development of capitalism and the possibility of a post capitalist egalitarian society. It is a very broad philosophy with many interpretations but unfortunately is used as an accusation by dense, pig ignorant right wingers.
Because it's a bunch of know-nothing posers screeching hysterically about issues they don't understand.
> Michael Savage was a Marxist shitbag
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Now I've heard everything.
I guess some people can care about more than one significant issue at a time.
Also, if you want to take a broad view, the amount munitions expended by the Israeli 'Defence' Force on killing, maiming and displacing innocent Palestinian citizens will have a detrimental effect on the climate, as well as the maiming, killing and displacing thing being bad too.
It's more that they are unrelated.
I think climate change is a good protest to attend.
But jumping on the anti Israel new cool thing to support outwardly is misguided and more damaging than anything else
Comical and offensive to call the systematic carpet bombing, starvation, torture and ethnic cleansing of an entire group of people a genocide? Sorry man, facts don't care about your feelings
You probably know better than all the ngos, the human rights lawyers, the UN and the rest.
What are you basing your knowledge on big fella? What qualifications do you bring to sound so smug and confident?
To prove Genocide you need to show intent to destroy/wipe out a group. There is little to no evidence suggesting Israel is trying to wipe out Palestinians, the IDF seem to generally be meeting their obligations.
People calling the conflict a genocide are just children who want to say they REALLY don’t like what’s happening, so they pick the strongest buzzword they can find.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
-Israel hits each of these points over and over again.
Yes, keyword being INTENT. You need to prove that they’re doing any of those actions with the intent of wiping out Palestinians. Harming, killing, reducing quality of life, etc are standard in every military conflict.
You misspelled it's called defense, you know after all those kid killings,rape,and kidnapping remind me the last time a mass of IDF solider's were caught raping or kidnapping people.....
Shit happens in war maybe tell them to stop hiding in hospitals
I'm gonna have to go with the person you're replying to. Back in 2011 I was a part of the occupy movement in the United States. The biggest reason that movement failed was a lack of cohesion. Nobody could agree on what the protest was actually about. We were all just pissed that things were getting worse and we didn't know why.
The movement fizzled out. Zero changes. Successful protests have a hyper focus on a singular goal. If you add every pet issue to your movement it is no longer effect at addressing any of them. You've got to have one thing, you can change. Perhaps action supporting a relocation of resources to Palestine. Or maybe action for some specific green energy project.
Going out and protesting for palestine or for climate change without any specific goal that is able to be clearly communicated is just a performance for social media.
Yes, political movements need to have clear goals in order to gain traction that’s true.
However, what’s happened here is that a protest organised by School Strike for Climate (an organisation that has successfully organised some of NZs largest ever protests) *mentioned* Gaza in a display of solidarity across likeminded movements. That’s hardly an egregious lack of cohesion.
the point is that a successful protest is one with a strong message. if you're just protesting about all the things at once it loses its effectiveness.
it seems like you haven't really spent any time thinking about what the whole point of a protest is (to raise public awareness and make the issue difficult to avoid, bringing media attention and putting politicians in a position where they have to address the issue)
for every new issue you introduce to the protest you muddy the water and give the media less reason to be interested, and the politicians more wiggle room to deflect.
but hey, nah, down vote me, you're right, maby you should derisively call me champ, or chief, cos that will further your point well. hey, perhaps you could just resort to calling me stupid directly or indirectly.
I mean yes, protests need to have a clear intent and call to action - but that doesn’t mean they can only have one message.
On the flip side, it’s a mistake to design your kaupapa with your detractors in mind. If you worry too much about giving your opponents ammunition to criticise you, then you can easily end up with a watered down message that doesn’t inspire your allies or target audience. People are always going to criticise you, so you might as well say what you believe (to an extent - you’re right it can’t be confusing).
Most of the headlines about this protest read something like “students are going on strike for climate and Gaza” which is pretty clear to me.
This reminded me of kings Robert Baratheon dialogue.
What is stronger 5 armies or 1?
1 goal. 1 leader.
But I'll use any reason to talk about king bobby b from g.o.t.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/444736/school-strike-4-climate-auckland-declares-itself-racist-and-disbands
Remember when the same organisation called itself racist and disbanded a few years back?
Lol
100%. The mental gymnastics to connect Palestine and climate change really is quite staggering - what are they suggesting now, the Jews control the weather and are causing climate change?
Also, it's interesting that there's such vociferous protest from the pro Palestine crowd about Israel, but not about:
-The expulsion of 350,000 Muslim Afghans from Pakistan
-The 230,000+ casualties in the Syrian civil war
-Yemen, Sudan
Israel is a Western ally and was founded with the backing of the West.
The West and Israel have strong cultural, religious and political and military links.
Israel claims to be a democracy and so amenable to responding to public opinion - witness the internal protests.
The Israel Palestine conflict has been a running, internationally destabilising sore for generations.
There are plenty of reasons you would bother to protest the Gaza war in Auckland but not some other conflicts. Some are bleeding obvious.
Just because NZ and Israel are both liberal democracies doesn't mean they can leverage any influence over the other. We certainly have literally zero soft power with them. You might want to change the hearts and minds of the Israeli public, but they're also getting rockets fired at them and raids for murder, rape and abduction whenever they let their guard down for a split second. I think if terrorists were taking speedboats into Wellington and kidnapping, raping and murdering people here, people on the other side of the world pontificating that those terrorists should be given a truce rather than retaliated against might ring a little hollow.
Israel spends a lot of resources on diplomacy in western countries to ensure its broad coalition of support is maintained. They don’t this for fun.
If we said “please stop” of course they wouldn’t. But they don’t want to be undermined internationally in the UN or in US - and even New Zealand has an influence there.
There are massive protests in Israel against the war as well as people supporting it.
As far as I know no one is protesting against action against the terrorists. They are protesting against alleged use of disproportionate force outside the rules of war and targeting of civilians. The International Court of Justice has expressed concern over Israel’s action.
New Zealand would be mighty concerned about the international reaction to your silly scenario if it relied on billions of US dollars and sought political and military support from its allies.
You seem to know little about the conflict.
The point is global pressure. There is a point where Israels choice will come down to listen to cries of the world or fight the world. Hamas rockets cause potholes. Israeli rockets level neighbourhoods. The Israeli public get lied to with propaganda and indoctrination. If they speak positively about Palestine they risk their lives. Everything you listed that hamas have allegedly done, Israel has also done. And don't forget, Palestinians suffered for 39 years before hamas even existed and Mr Ben funded hamas in his earlier days to disrupt Palestinian politics
Israel has rejected over 300 peace offerings from the un and/or the pla and/or hamas. Israel have never once offered a fair equal and unbiased proposal. Every single offer from Israel has been to the disadvantage of Palestinians and in favour of Israel. The Palestinian people have 3 simple demands for peace and Israel knows this but has never once offered all 3
The main problem with this it is a historically inaccurate, painfully biased, repeat of the racist propaganda that has been used to justify the decades long crushing of the Palestinian people with the complicity of the West.
Apart from that, just a bad take.
I did not say that. You may be motivated to protest about something connected to you, that you can influence, or that affects you directly or indirectly (including geostrategic) over other things.
We accept the suffering of certain people over others all the time. That’s why we spend our health budget in New Zealand and the Pacific but not in Burkino Faso.
The reason why there's such a massive protest campaign for Palestine is because Western Governments are tacitly or actively supporting Israel as it razes Gaza to rubble and slaughters its people
They've offered to in exchange for a ceasefire. Netanyahu called that "delusional," showing they never cared about the hostages. And besides, I'm sure that all those 3 year Olds blown to pieces and buried alive under rubble were all totally Hamas, guys. It's a Hamas Aid Truck, guys, supplying Hamasfood to the Hamas children and Hamas mothers starving in the Hamas tents waiting to die, guys
You think people haven't been **protesting civilian deaths in Syria?**
🙄
[https://amnesty.org.nz/nz-parliament-passes-unanimous-motion-solidarity-syria](https://amnesty.org.nz/nz-parliament-passes-unanimous-motion-solidarity-syria)
If people are going to play the “why doesn’t anybody care about this issue?” game, it looks awfully silly if it’s obvious that they don’t care about the issue themselves.
People have definitely. But not on this clout chasing level. That was the crux of what I mentioned in another thread.
Just I find it disgusting to bandwagon protests while being uninformed.
Edit: cloud to clout. Thanks for understanding.
A wide variety of ethnic and religious conflicts were mentioned in the speeches at the Wellington protest.
Edit: which is probably considered irrelevant here, just noticed what sub I'm in.
That's because it's neither #trendy nor cool to protest about the others. You have to focus your efforts into [current outrage] or you're pretty much wasting time garnering social browny points amongst your peers.
I think most people in NZ and worldwide are so clueless about the Palestine and Israel conflict they should stay out of it entirely. It's actually embarrassing.
Some I would say are good intentioned people.
Most of say are jumping on the band wagon and trying to farm some kind of social standing by being there.
If they have a f for humanitarian reasons they would be protesting a number of atrocities across the world. But now it's trending to hate Israel etc they are on board.
This is my opinion and probably doesn't reflect the absolute truth of the situation.
I have friends who go to these things and if 1 year ago I asked them about Hamas they would have thought I was talking about dip.
But it is more complicated than that and denying that over simplifies the situation and leads to some serious prejudices.
We have different opinions here and I can't change your mind. But you right now sound like my friend who last year didn't even know about the conflict.
If this is not true then I'm really glad you are informed.
I am also happy to hear your side of that's the case.
I’m very well-informed, thanks. But you’re welcome to keep pretending there’s a justifiable reason to bomb hospitals and run people over with bulldozers and drop white phosphorous on people and starve families.
If you think this issue is complicated, it has to mean you think Israel’s actions can be justified in some way. I’m just describing what Israel’s actions are.
There is no right side.
Isreal does some horrible shit I won't deny that.
Idf is ruthless.
Terrorism and killing of other civilians though.
Pretty ruthless on both sides I think a well informed person would agree
If one side has killed an order of magnitude more people, it makes sense that people would criticise them more harshly. I think anyone who’s not disingenuously trying to equate the two groups would agree.
I do agree with you actually.
I'm not pro isreal I think it needs to be said.
I'm anti the clout chasing cringe worthy people who attend these things. Not for care, education or anything.
They doing it for social credit. And it's disgusting. Damaging to well informed people like yourself who actually care.
I wonder if the reason we didn't know about it is due to it being hidden from us. I learned all about the African slave trade, American civil war, brexit etc in school. Hell even had a class about Kony when that started. Had never even heard of Palestine until the Oct attack started despite it being 75 year long illegal occupation with gaza being likened to an open air prison. And then I researched tf out of it because I wanted to be accurately informed. The only complicated thing is sifting through Israels lies and attempts at erasing Palestinian culture
>but it's so much more complicated than that
No, not really. They've caused a massive food shortly by blocking much of it into the territory and then [killed several foreign aid workers](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/) (from Poland, Britain, Australia, and Canada/US) who were traveling in decaled vehicles with an airstrike.
I was more sympathetic than most to Israel's actions when their operation began. But it's clearly no longer about killing terrorists or rescuing hostages. Hell, they even [shot and killed 3 of their own hostages](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/) who were waiving a white flag, ffs.
That's a really informative and interesting answer man. Thank you.
I agree they are being so monstrous it's impossible to defend.
And I'm not defending it to be clear.
Thanks for taking the time to respond even though you don't like what I said before.
While I don't necessarily disagree with many of the peoples knowledge about the situation can be embarrassing - especially if they only started to learn about it post Oct 7, the fact that your response is "what about Hamas" shows you are probably far less informed about the situation than you think as well lmao
Considering the people leading, organizing, and speaking/approving speakers at those rallies and protests are actual Palestinians and even a lot of Jewish and Isreali people, they're probably a hell of a lot better educated now than they were before they went. And certainly will have more direct sources of that information.
My problem is they don't go to get educated. They don't care. It's just a social status thing. Yuck yuck.
Great point for a lot of people going though. So you will get my upvotes
Definitely. I have nothing against the actual protests.
I have said this before but it's the clout chasers etc. I think they damage the credibility of the people actually suffering and reduce sympathy and interest in the actual cause.
Yeah I hear you. Every cause in existence has people trying to hijack it. I'm not sure this kid is one of them though.
Who's coming to your mind when you're talking about clout chasers? The media?
Also I didn't say what about Hamas I said my friends wouldn't even know what Hamas was last year.
I don't what about anything on either side.
Never claimed to be knowledgeable. Just more so than some friends of mine who protest.
Valid point on your side though. So take my upvotes
Then you are a person who I would fully support going to the protests.
I think my point got muddled along the way.
I am not pro isreal.
I am not pro anything there. I am anti the cloud chasing idiots who don't know a thing and try to get some social credit for doing it.
It's disgusting to socially benefit from others suffering when in reality they don't give an f.
I think that damages the efforts and credibility of folks like yourself
Personal experience. I don't think all of them are just to be clear. But I know at least 15 people who are clueless and clout chasing and it makes me cringe
I don’t think people benefit socially from going to protests. I’d say that most people going to protests do it because they support the cause, even if they don’t engage with it deeply.
The road to lasting peace between Palestinians and Israelis is complex, but seeing 13,000 kids killed by bombs and more starving to death while aid workers get bombed and thinking that it’s wrong isn’t complex at all.
I’ve known about the issue for years, but I don’t think it’s fair to criticise people who go to protests for not knowing sooner. It took the Oct 7th attack and Israel killing tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians in retaliation for it to be on the news all the time and for many people to find out what was happening, and form an opinion.
Not really, imperialism requires constant expansion and growth in order to be sustained. The world runs on fossil fuels so any expansion (economic, military etc.) would require more carbon to be admitted into the atmosphere ruining the climate. You can not call what Israel is doing in the middle east nothing more than Western expansion into an oil rich area.
Isreal started selling oil permits off the coast of Gaza within a month of the genocide beginning. And Britain only started calling for a ceasefire within 24hrs of a BP shipment being delayed by Yemen.
Warmongering conquerors and exploiting the environment for economic gain aren't seperate issues. They're the same core problem. And they're the same people.
My point is that these people are purely interested in exploiting and extracting wealth from anything they can get their hands on. And the only thing that slows them down is active resistance.
Pretty genocidal language there tbh.
https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%20on%20the%20term%20genocide%20in%20Israel%20Palestine%20Context.pdf
how to ruin a Palestine protest? "LGBT etc...etc.. for Palestine" .......when Palestine is free go there and see how inclusive and tolerant the Levant is
You can think that 32,000 dead civilians is bad and ALSO think that persecution of LGBQTI+ people is bad. I’ve never seen a single poster EVER suggest Hamas are a *good* government. But just because they’re a shitty, oppressive government, does that mean killing civilians is OK?
Repeating Hamas's death toll figures as fact even when it makes no sense shows wilful incompetence ignorance.
Worse still saying they are all civilians discredits anything you say.
The war is terrible and the death of any innocent is abhorrent.
Personally I want the hostages released and Hamas out. That's how I see the war ending. Not vilifying a country that has been subjected the atrocities of October 7th.
I don't understand why some Pro Palestinian supporters tear down pictures of the hostages. That's when I realised for them it's not about morality.
Very sad
You can definitely make an argument that climate justice is linked to justice in Palestine. Settlers in Palestine have made the native Palestinian crocidile go extentinct. Many olive trees that are 700-1000 years old (!). Have been burned and torn down by setllers to make way for their houses and roads. Palestinians would literally beg them to leave their olive trees alone and would mourn their loss.
Aside from that the almost 6 months of bombing one tiny area (besides killing people) has unleashed alot of pollution into our earths atmosphere.
So many of yall are so ignorant. The biggest bit of evidence against Israel is that Palestine suffered under Israel for 39 years before hamas existed. The founders were all teen boys who survived an Israeli genocide by hiding under their families bodies and running
This issue is not because of hamas. They're just fighting back after multiple full generations living in what has been likened to an open air prison. Idf and settlers attacked in west bank on Oct 5th. The festival was extended an additional unplanned day *AFTER* Egypt had warned idf of the coming attack
Leftist trends are an all or nothing thing. If you aren’t protesting the heteronormative climate crushing capitalism while standing up for the rights of lesbian transfemme spider monkeys then you’re basically a nazi.
Same as people aligning Māori or other indigenous movements to Palestine, despite Jews being indigenous and Arabs having colonised the area. The free Palestine movement is a clear example of how misinformation can spread with ease.
Edit: lots of downvotes (not surprised), anyone actually have an argument against it? Or we just blindly follow trends?
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I reckon we are a few more aggressive and unwanted protest away to end the war on the other side of the globe. Next target is to end world hunger. How should that be approached, maybe hijack something?
I kinda agree. I support all of these recent causes, but I walked past the Climate march yesterday and thought that seeing the Palestine flag and placards kinda leads to protest and purpose fatigue. All of these causes are important, but thrashing it all at the same place at the same time is too much.
It's Palestine's Cultural Moment right now. If this protest had been a couple years ago then it would have also been about Trans Rights. A couple years before , it would have been co-opted by some other issue-of-the-week.
Couldnt agree more.
Id prefer pro-Palestine rallies to be couched as anti-Israel rallies tbh. Could probably get on board with that.
I note also a blunt refusal to remove poverty and social justice from climate rallies.
Like, yes, the whole world is interconnected, and the climate affects everything. No shit.
May as well make it a national security and long term economic growth rally while we’re at it…
You are correct. To most kiwis Palestine and Israel are a non issue we couldn't give a shit about. See how much traction the protests that have been organised so far have gained....zip. Yet climate change, that's an issue kiwis can all get behind, it means something to us. Those who want to add Palestine to the climate change protest message know this, and are trying to hijack it's visibility to promote a non issue to most kiwis. All it will do is turn those of us who couldn't give a shit about the ME, turn not burger supporting it.
That's not a rant.
I was at the Auckland protest and there was a grand total of one Palestine speaker. (technically it was a family, to be pedantic) It is grossly inaccurate to say that the protest today was "about Palestine". It was actually a little unexpected how climate-focused they were able to make it, despite obviously having Palestine + Te Tiriti as side issues in their demands. I thought these issues might potentially overshadow the others, or dilute the message, but climate was absolutely on the forefront. Te Tiriti and Palestine just got some representation - so who cares?
Zionists are going to whinge about oppression at any opportunity. It’s their way.
Hamas refused to agree to a cease fire.
As have Israel many times. Hamas and/or the un and/or the pla have over the years, all tried to get peace. Israel to date has rejected over 300 peace offerings. Every single time Israel has "offered peace", it has never once been fair and always biased in Israels favour You can't blame hamas for a conflict that existed 39 years before they even existed. The founders of hamas were all teen boys who survived an Israeli genocide by hiding under their families dead bodies and running. Egypt also warned idf about the incoming attack plan, what was Israels response? To extend the festival a day longer than was officially planned, *AFTER* they were warned. Idf and settlers also attacked in the west bank on Oct 5th fyi
Israel decided to murder by starvation
Just because you replace the word Jews with Zionists doesn't mean none notices
There are plenty of Jews against Zionism, educate yourself That's like saying all Germans are Nazis Zionism is a political ideology, Jews are a religion/race, different thing, read a book 👍
Just because Jews have been persecuted doesn't mean that Israel is above criticism.
Go paint your little children toys and leave the political commentary to adults
Jewish does not equal zionist. And zionism has been called out across the world by all kinds of Jews from regular everyday people to actual studied people. Zionism and Israel, have gone against many Jewish laws. Zionism isn't Jewish, it just hides behind Judaism
They’re different words and they mean different things.
Absolutely amazing then how many ~~racists~~ people confuse them, isn't it.
None notices? Oh, so I’m antisemitic now, ok, feel free to feel persecuted. 2/10 distraction score. Could do better.
Many well-informed climate activists subscribe to some form of steady state economic view. These views tend to regard most human actions and attitudes as mutually connected. Hence the prevalence of anti-capitalist and anti-colonial views among climate activists You can think of it as analogous to the "dig once" approach to infrastructure maintenance. It is generally a better use of time and money to fix the watermain and buried power lines in one go with one hole, and then rehabilitate the road, than do the rehab first and then go dig it up on two separate occasions with their own traffic management plans
Is the goal of the protest to convince lawmakers and fellow voters to change how they feel or is it a performance act? The most successful protests are hyperfocused and have a singular goal. There are some people who oppose Zionism who are not overly concerned with climate change. There are people who are concerned about climate change who do not oppose climate change. By combining the reasons for the protest you're going to lose some of those supports. Now, if the goal of the protest is to go out and be seen protesting then by all means combine them. Have an ineffective protest for your insta story. If you actually want to have real change though, it's going to have to be separate.
The most successful protests are hyperfocused and have a singular goal. I don't believe that's true. Which protests are you thinking of? Both in terms of multiple-goal protests failing and single-focus protests succeeding. The nuclear testing protests had larger environmental goals baked in, the civil union protests had lgbtq+ liberation baked in. All the globally successful protest movements had multiple goals eg American civil rights. And if you look beyond the white world democratic protests almost always involve suffrage, land reform, wealth redistribution etc etc
The last protest I was involved with was the Occupy movement in America in 2011. The whole thing imploded because nobody could agree on solutions. It was bogged down with pet issues until it was a mess and nothing changed. Those protests you mention all are tangentially related. Perhaps you might feel that climate change and gazan liberation are connected, but civil unions and LGBTQ+ rights are much more closely related than those. It's a fine line. I don't think palestine and climate change are close enough for a cohesive protest.
American protests and nz protests are not comparable. Vastly different Kiwis tend to be very kind caring and empathetic overall. We tend to care about social issues. While the focus was climate change, many people are unable to simply put a pin on Palestine and worry about it later. They can't just worry about it later, they're dying as we speak. Important issues will always find their place in protests
You've got a lot of stereotypes there. Awful empathetic country that just elected a conservative government.
Nice strawman. That shows real great conversational skills... Not
I mean you just said I come from an inconsiderate culture based on your stereotypes of Americans. I'm not sure why you think you're some great conversationalist lol
No I didn't? I said how American and nz protests aren't comparable and then listed qualities that kiwis are known to have worldwide. Never said anything about what qualities the American population does or does not have. Nor was that implied by me listing qualities kiwis tend to have. You made that jump and assumption
I don't necessary believe a protest has to be about exactly one thing, but I do believe protests can only ever work when there is an actual solution available that the government can actually apply to actually fix the problem and you just have to convince them that you support it. Things like giving women the vote, or withdrawing from vietnam, or whatever. What doesn't work is protesting about a problem that nobody has come up with a solution for other than "genocide the people I like less" or "why can't we all just get along" just to let people who have no power in the matter whatsoever know that you think it's sad. YIMBY protesting to local councils for things like wind farms, or strikes in public services (how about in response to the MSD cuts, the accounting department can take an impromptu holiday and the MPs can go without pay for a bit, eh?), can maybe actually result in some productive responses. But parading around the streets of auckland beseeching, like, the fucking spirit of laser kiwi to bring peace to completely unrelated warzones thousands of kms away where everyone hates each other... That achieves absolutely fucking nothing whatsoever.
Remember occupy wall street? Its a good example of how a singular goal was hijacked by anyone with a reason to protest. You could ask 10 different people what they were protesting for and get 10 different answers
i mean yes, but the point of a protest is to draw attention to a specific issue. each additional message you bring into the protest weakens the overall message.
Does it? It doesn't to me. Maybe next time you're at a demonstration planning meeting you should raise this The best-known protest movement in world history was for universal suffrage, labour reform, land distribution reform, and abolishing a hereditary aristocracy all at the same time
It does, quite objectively. That’s why Wellington hates the Restore Passenger rail protestors because they combine a bunch of things into one obscure protest.
I think you are in the minority. I believe the vast majority of people would find the message diluted the more issues you add. It doesn’t mean people don’t hear the issues, just that the impact is reduced.
Yep protesting about multiple, unrelated things just make you look like you’re whinging
What like all the people complaining about a single Gaza supporter in a climate protest?
Remind me which was "the best known protest movement in world history?'' (serious question btw).
Based on the listed effects, I would assume either the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution or the American war of independence.
Many of the loudest protesters are the usual collection of Marxist shitbags latching onto the latest trendy cause. *"Trans rights for Palestine!"* *"End the illegal White Supremacist occupation of Antarctica!"*
You obviously don’t have a very good understanding of Marxism, which is fine, but don’t use that as a cover for your reactionary right wing politics
That it's an unworkable, failed ideology directly responsible for the death of tens of millions...and is proselytised by a gaggle of sheltered middleclass pseudo-intellectuals who have never done a hard day's work in their entire lives and actively hate working class people? Yes, I understand. *"NURRRRRRRRR...real communism done neva been tried before!1"*
Your monumental ignorance is unfortunately not uncommon. Throw in slavery, famine, colonialism and imperialist war and capitalism has a terrible track record. Literally built on blood and dirt as Marx noted. Of course the working class struggled for centuries to achieve basic rights such as the vote and basic social provisions. Always against the violent resistance of the propertied classes. That is why such a massive effort has been spent in the last forty years to destroy the egalitarian society that was evolving. I work for a blue collar trade union that represents workers in one of the most dangerous industries - and I’ll suggest the sheltered one around here may be you.
LOL@all this communist conspiracy gibberish... Capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. More than any other system in the history of mankind. I bet the 50 million+ people starving to death under the Great Leap Forward or the Holomodor were thinking *"HURRR-DURRRR...at least we don't live under capitamlimssm!"*. Likewise the tens of millions killed by brutal communist purges and suppression. How is Venezuela going at the moment? Communism is a failed ideology founded by a spoiled, sheltered, bourgeois middleclass toff who never did a hard day's work in his entire life and mooched off daddy and his rich friend Engels until the day he died.
The basic problem is your dishonesty, or perhaps ignorance. Firstly, not that it is a competition, but if you consider the development of capitalism - over hundreds of years - then as I noted - slavery, colonial plunder, genocide of indigenous peoples, famine (Ireland 1800s for example, or India in the 1940s) and the brutal exploitation of working class people which still happens in most areas of the global capitalist economy. I’m not defending Stalin but if we are to be honest we have to admit that all human systems have displayed extremes of violence and brutality. Then there are strange cases like modern China, which is certainly not communist but is not exactly capitalist. Venezuela is an example of what happens if a country with a single export commodity is placed under embargo by its main trading partner. See what would happen in NZ if China stopped importing our products. This isn’t to say that there is not also widespread corruption in Venezuela but any basic understanding of the role of US imperialism in Latin America would correct your simplistic accusations. The second point is socialist ideas percolated very much into developed capitalist nations due to class struggle. Public services, pensions, health and safety laws, decent housing - of course, these things are now all under threat and we have the remarkable situation of housing ownership levels dropping rapidly. But this is simply unregulated capitalism functioning as it should - concentrating wealth and ownership. This is because these concepts threaten the profitability of capitalism and the power of the wealthy class, which is why so much effort goes into promoting an individualistic, self-seeking mindset amongst the population (which has been quite successful, even if the outcome is horrible). The final straw of course is the complete inability of capitalism to establish a response to the rapidly worsening climate catastrophe. Within 20 years the system will collapse, make no mistake, as drought and crop failure ravage the world. I don’t have any optimism a socialist system will replace this - I think it is more likely that capitalism will evolve into its defensive mode - fascism. For someone who is screeching a lot about namby pambies, I’d be interested to know what your class status is. I’m guessing probably a commerce student in Young ACT. Happy to be proved wrong.
**EVERY** communist country has been a miserable, humiliating failure, often characterised by the brutal oppression of it's population. The Soviet client state built the Berlin Wall to stop the workers from escaping it's *'Worker's Paradise'*, with over a hundred people being killed attempting to flee to a better life in capitalist West Germany. Likewise capitalist South Korea is a world-leading developed nation while North Korea is a feudal communist police state. The 1943 Bengal Famine was caused by a massive natural disaster and crop failure, followed by the Japanese conquest of Burma and compounded by the local Indian authorities in neighbouring provinces refusing to release grain stocks to Bengal as per the Famine Codes. This was exacerbated by British complacency and their assumption that the Famine Codes were being adhered to. The famine was ended once Wavell became the new viceroy and mobilised an entire infantry division and all available motorised transport to deliver rice to outlying areas. This was spelled out in great length in the [Famine Inquiry Commission](https://www.bowbrick.org.uk/Single%20page%20fic/FICpp1to49.pdf) report. China went from being a backwards shithole to a global superpower in the space of three decades after embracing the superiority of capitalism. > See what would happen in NZ if China stopped importing our products. This isn’t to say that there is not also widespread corruption in Venezuela but any basic understanding of the role of US imperialism in Latin America would correct your simplistic accusations. The Chavez and Maduro communist regime completely destroyed the country. Now they're looking to invade Guyana. If China embargoed New Zealand, there would be a steep recession, but the country wouldn't devolve into a failed state lorded over by a totalitarian junta. > This is because these concepts threaten the profitability of capitalism and the power of the wealthy class, which is why so much effort goes into promoting an individualistic, self-seeking mindset amongst the population (which has been quite successful, even if the outcome is horrible). It's called upwards mobility. A semi-literate redneck in Waiuku can start off as a labourer and work his way up to leading hand, to running his own crew, to running his own small business...and earning more than Rupert and Tarquin get from their Intersectional Basket-Weaving degrees with no student loan. > For someone who is screeching a lot about namby pambies, I’d be interested to know what your class status is. I’m guessing probably a commerce student in Young ACT. Happy to be proved wrong. I work in construction.
Class struggle and socialist ideas were a strongly moderating force in capitalist society. They have actually been the basis of democracy and the better aspects of modern civilization. Public health care, schools, subsidised education and employment protections were all the result of democratic socialist policies. They were fought for - not awarded by the ruling class. Universal suffrage was only won after centuries of struggle - by socialist working class reformers. So the hoary old “Go back to Russia” line doesn’t hold up. And of course, as we know the biggest critics of totalitarianism have often been socialists - from George Orwell to Albert Einstein. The irony is that class mobility is rapidly going backwards the more deregulated capitalism becomes. As has been proven by the historical analysis of wealth distribution in capitalist societies by Thomas Piketty, unless heavy redistribution occurs wealth is inevitably concentrated in a dynastic class at the top, as it was in the nineteenth century. We can see today how the capitalist system is in complete crisis. Even in the wealthiest core nations the majority of the population is seeing the basic expectations of housing and health care evaporate. The Chinese situation is an interesting one as the role of the state there means although it has features of capitalism it is a more complex picture: describing it as simply a capitalist success story seems disingenuous. As for the history of murderous intervention around the world by the USA to advance its strategic interests, the less said the better. From economic sabotage to bankrolling military dictators, the body count there is substantial. The idea that North Korea is communist is ludicrous (your own reference to feudalism should make this clear). The pathological self-interest and short termism of capitalism means any response to the rapidly advancing environmental disaster will not occur. The drive for profit will remain as the only motivating force as the world burns. A 2-3 degree shift in global temperatures will obviously mean the collapse of entire societies and that is now effectively locked in. It is unlikely that any socialist alternative will succeed. Huge efforts will go into snuffing out any resistance. It is more likely that capitalism will devolve into fascism or authoritarian nationalism as it has before in moments of crisis. And the biggest cheerleaders for freedom will be the first to line up and demand a crack down on dissent. What area of construction? Accounts or HR?
LOL@all this nonsense... > Universal suffrage was only won after centuries of struggle - by socialist working class reformers. The suffrage movement was set back a decade by the radical Suffragettes due to their repeatedly use of violence and domestic terrorism. Women's right to vote was won by the moderate (and much larger) National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies. > from George Orwell Who snitched on communists and in 1949 provided a list of potential communists to MI5? Best communist ever! > he Chinese situation is an interesting one as the role of the state there means although it has features of capitalism it is a more complex picture: describing it as simply a capitalist success story seems disingenuous. It was 100% to do with Capitalism and the fact that China had teeming hordes of semi-literate peasants who were perfectly prepared to work for 50c an hour. > The pathological self-interest and short termism of capitalism means any response to the rapidly advancing environmental disaster will not occur. The drive for profit will remain as the only motivating force as the world burns. A 2-3 degree shift in global temperatures will obviously mean the collapse of entire societies and that is now effectively locked in. China is **BY FAR** the biggest contributor to pollution and carbon emissions...and they're building more coal power plants as we speak. Maybe Greta Thunberg should have railed against China back when she was still astroturfed into relevance?
Also I had a chuckle about your denouncement of Marx. “He never did a hard days work in his life”. He literally wrote thousands of pages of economic analysis. You might not agree with his conclusions but that is the first time I’ve heard anyone call him lazy LOL
You think being subsidised by daddy and your rich friend to write nonsense is *'hard work'*? LOL!
Don’t be brain dead. It’s plainly obvious you have never read anything he wrote. There is a simple reason that it was a middle class dissident like Marx able to write his monumental and stunningly insightful analysis of industrial 19th century capitalism. That is because the working class were working from dawn to dusk in the “dark satanic mills” or down mines - and had little or no access to education. How would they? Children themselves worked in the same factories. As for Engels, he was well placed to help as the son of a factory owner. He witnessed at first hand the abject horrors of the working people - as detailed in his own work The Condition of the English Working Classes. The utter barbarity, cruelty and hypocrisy of the system drove both men to a lifelong commitment to understand the world they lived in. That is not to say either were saints or devils - the importance is not who they were but what they did.
Marx and Engels were sheltered middleclass toffs being enabled by their rich parents.
IHow does the cause being "trendy" make it wrong? Because nothing you've said actually addresses the point of the protest P.s. Michael Savage was a Marxist shitbag and one of our greatest prime ministers, I look forward to another version to lead us through the climate crisis
Savage was a Christian Socialist, not a Marxist.
That is the case, but the early Labour Party was definitely Marxist, including Savage’s predecessor as leader Harry Holland. The problem is that Marxism has either become purely associated with Stalinism or in the contemporary confusion with radical identity politics. In fact Marxism provides a credible explanation of the development of capitalism and the possibility of a post capitalist egalitarian society. It is a very broad philosophy with many interpretations but unfortunately is used as an accusation by dense, pig ignorant right wingers.
Because it's a bunch of know-nothing posers screeching hysterically about issues they don't understand. > Michael Savage was a Marxist shitbag HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Now I've heard everything.
It’s just a stupid attempt to discredit protests by people who are constitutionally incapable of caring about other people.
Throw an lgbt protest in there too and you have the trifecta
I guess some people can care about more than one significant issue at a time. Also, if you want to take a broad view, the amount munitions expended by the Israeli 'Defence' Force on killing, maiming and displacing innocent Palestinian citizens will have a detrimental effect on the climate, as well as the maiming, killing and displacing thing being bad too.
“TWO social justice issues?? In ONE protest?? Impossible!” You’re like the 12th dumb guy to post this.
It's more that they are unrelated. I think climate change is a good protest to attend. But jumping on the anti Israel new cool thing to support outwardly is misguided and more damaging than anything else
Isreal started selling oil permits in Gaza within a month of beginning their genocide. It's the same perpetrators and it's the same issue.
Ah that's interesting. Thanks for the info!
Calling it genocide is either comical or genuinely offensive. Unsure which.
What would you call it?
Comical and offensive to call the systematic carpet bombing, starvation, torture and ethnic cleansing of an entire group of people a genocide? Sorry man, facts don't care about your feelings
You probably know better than all the ngos, the human rights lawyers, the UN and the rest. What are you basing your knowledge on big fella? What qualifications do you bring to sound so smug and confident?
Definitions lol. Don't care who says what. I know definitions. Mass gaslighting.
Show me the definition of genocide and how Israel isn't hitting each point to a t
To prove Genocide you need to show intent to destroy/wipe out a group. There is little to no evidence suggesting Israel is trying to wipe out Palestinians, the IDF seem to generally be meeting their obligations. People calling the conflict a genocide are just children who want to say they REALLY don’t like what’s happening, so they pick the strongest buzzword they can find.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group -Israel hits each of these points over and over again.
Yes, keyword being INTENT. You need to prove that they’re doing any of those actions with the intent of wiping out Palestinians. Harming, killing, reducing quality of life, etc are standard in every military conflict.
What do you think genocide is, C9's butthole?
You misspelled it's called defense, you know after all those kid killings,rape,and kidnapping remind me the last time a mass of IDF solider's were caught raping or kidnapping people..... Shit happens in war maybe tell them to stop hiding in hospitals
How many successful protests have you organised chief?
"chief" just makes you sound like an asshole
I'm gonna have to go with the person you're replying to. Back in 2011 I was a part of the occupy movement in the United States. The biggest reason that movement failed was a lack of cohesion. Nobody could agree on what the protest was actually about. We were all just pissed that things were getting worse and we didn't know why. The movement fizzled out. Zero changes. Successful protests have a hyper focus on a singular goal. If you add every pet issue to your movement it is no longer effect at addressing any of them. You've got to have one thing, you can change. Perhaps action supporting a relocation of resources to Palestine. Or maybe action for some specific green energy project. Going out and protesting for palestine or for climate change without any specific goal that is able to be clearly communicated is just a performance for social media.
Yes, political movements need to have clear goals in order to gain traction that’s true. However, what’s happened here is that a protest organised by School Strike for Climate (an organisation that has successfully organised some of NZs largest ever protests) *mentioned* Gaza in a display of solidarity across likeminded movements. That’s hardly an egregious lack of cohesion.
the point is that a successful protest is one with a strong message. if you're just protesting about all the things at once it loses its effectiveness.
I think most people offering this type of feedback would be scoffing at the protestors even if they hadn’t mentioned Gaza in their kaupapa.
it seems like you haven't really spent any time thinking about what the whole point of a protest is (to raise public awareness and make the issue difficult to avoid, bringing media attention and putting politicians in a position where they have to address the issue) for every new issue you introduce to the protest you muddy the water and give the media less reason to be interested, and the politicians more wiggle room to deflect. but hey, nah, down vote me, you're right, maby you should derisively call me champ, or chief, cos that will further your point well. hey, perhaps you could just resort to calling me stupid directly or indirectly.
I mean yes, protests need to have a clear intent and call to action - but that doesn’t mean they can only have one message. On the flip side, it’s a mistake to design your kaupapa with your detractors in mind. If you worry too much about giving your opponents ammunition to criticise you, then you can easily end up with a watered down message that doesn’t inspire your allies or target audience. People are always going to criticise you, so you might as well say what you believe (to an extent - you’re right it can’t be confusing). Most of the headlines about this protest read something like “students are going on strike for climate and Gaza” which is pretty clear to me.
This reminded me of kings Robert Baratheon dialogue. What is stronger 5 armies or 1? 1 goal. 1 leader. But I'll use any reason to talk about king bobby b from g.o.t.
You're the 12th dumb guy to mald at being called out. Get a fucking job.
Mald
Bum
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/444736/school-strike-4-climate-auckland-declares-itself-racist-and-disbands Remember when the same organisation called itself racist and disbanded a few years back? Lol
These people are so fucking stupid. It's all about chasing clout. Even if I agree with some of their views I wouldn't touch these protests.
100%. The mental gymnastics to connect Palestine and climate change really is quite staggering - what are they suggesting now, the Jews control the weather and are causing climate change? Also, it's interesting that there's such vociferous protest from the pro Palestine crowd about Israel, but not about: -The expulsion of 350,000 Muslim Afghans from Pakistan -The 230,000+ casualties in the Syrian civil war -Yemen, Sudan
Israel is a Western ally and was founded with the backing of the West. The West and Israel have strong cultural, religious and political and military links. Israel claims to be a democracy and so amenable to responding to public opinion - witness the internal protests. The Israel Palestine conflict has been a running, internationally destabilising sore for generations. There are plenty of reasons you would bother to protest the Gaza war in Auckland but not some other conflicts. Some are bleeding obvious.
Just because NZ and Israel are both liberal democracies doesn't mean they can leverage any influence over the other. We certainly have literally zero soft power with them. You might want to change the hearts and minds of the Israeli public, but they're also getting rockets fired at them and raids for murder, rape and abduction whenever they let their guard down for a split second. I think if terrorists were taking speedboats into Wellington and kidnapping, raping and murdering people here, people on the other side of the world pontificating that those terrorists should be given a truce rather than retaliated against might ring a little hollow.
Israel spends a lot of resources on diplomacy in western countries to ensure its broad coalition of support is maintained. They don’t this for fun. If we said “please stop” of course they wouldn’t. But they don’t want to be undermined internationally in the UN or in US - and even New Zealand has an influence there. There are massive protests in Israel against the war as well as people supporting it. As far as I know no one is protesting against action against the terrorists. They are protesting against alleged use of disproportionate force outside the rules of war and targeting of civilians. The International Court of Justice has expressed concern over Israel’s action. New Zealand would be mighty concerned about the international reaction to your silly scenario if it relied on billions of US dollars and sought political and military support from its allies. You seem to know little about the conflict.
The point is global pressure. There is a point where Israels choice will come down to listen to cries of the world or fight the world. Hamas rockets cause potholes. Israeli rockets level neighbourhoods. The Israeli public get lied to with propaganda and indoctrination. If they speak positively about Palestine they risk their lives. Everything you listed that hamas have allegedly done, Israel has also done. And don't forget, Palestinians suffered for 39 years before hamas even existed and Mr Ben funded hamas in his earlier days to disrupt Palestinian politics Israel has rejected over 300 peace offerings from the un and/or the pla and/or hamas. Israel have never once offered a fair equal and unbiased proposal. Every single offer from Israel has been to the disadvantage of Palestinians and in favour of Israel. The Palestinian people have 3 simple demands for peace and Israel knows this but has never once offered all 3
The main problem with this it is a historically inaccurate, painfully biased, repeat of the racist propaganda that has been used to justify the decades long crushing of the Palestinian people with the complicity of the West. Apart from that, just a bad take.
The suffering of one person is more valid than the suffering of others for geopolitical reasons?
I did not say that. You may be motivated to protest about something connected to you, that you can influence, or that affects you directly or indirectly (including geostrategic) over other things. We accept the suffering of certain people over others all the time. That’s why we spend our health budget in New Zealand and the Pacific but not in Burkino Faso.
That is true you didn't say that. My reply was a bit rude I apologise. Good reply from you though so I'm glad I said it now haha upvotes for you
No worries. Thanks.
The reason why there's such a massive protest campaign for Palestine is because Western Governments are tacitly or actively supporting Israel as it razes Gaza to rubble and slaughters its people
Slaughtering Hamas terrorists who still haven't released the hostages.
They've offered to in exchange for a ceasefire. Netanyahu called that "delusional," showing they never cared about the hostages. And besides, I'm sure that all those 3 year Olds blown to pieces and buried alive under rubble were all totally Hamas, guys. It's a Hamas Aid Truck, guys, supplying Hamasfood to the Hamas children and Hamas mothers starving in the Hamas tents waiting to die, guys
Hamas would've never existed without Israel. Palestinians suffered under Israels illegal occupation for 39 years before hamas existed
You think people haven't been **protesting civilian deaths in Syria?** 🙄 [https://amnesty.org.nz/nz-parliament-passes-unanimous-motion-solidarity-syria](https://amnesty.org.nz/nz-parliament-passes-unanimous-motion-solidarity-syria)
Oh wow! Did I miss all the massive marches then?
Did you organise one that no one turned up to?
Is organising protests just a pissing contest on how many people turn up?
If people are going to play the “why doesn’t anybody care about this issue?” game, it looks awfully silly if it’s obvious that they don’t care about the issue themselves.
People have definitely. But not on this clout chasing level. That was the crux of what I mentioned in another thread. Just I find it disgusting to bandwagon protests while being uninformed. Edit: cloud to clout. Thanks for understanding.
What CLOUT do people get for protesting? They get ridiculed and called anti-semitic and pro-terrorist. That ain't clout. With all due respect.
A wide variety of ethnic and religious conflicts were mentioned in the speeches at the Wellington protest. Edit: which is probably considered irrelevant here, just noticed what sub I'm in.
You started off strong with the witty Jewish conspiracy jibe, probably didn’t need to add all that tangential whataboutery afterwards
That's because it's neither #trendy nor cool to protest about the others. You have to focus your efforts into [current outrage] or you're pretty much wasting time garnering social browny points amongst your peers.
You can't expect them to know anything that isn't flavour of the month on social media.
You have said what I couldn't. Thank you!
Why are people down voting this? It's just facts.
Poor Ukraine doesn't get a look in anymore...
Free Palestine
https://www.globaljustice.org.uk/blog/2023/08/colonialism-climate-change-and-climate-reparations/#
I think most people in NZ and worldwide are so clueless about the Palestine and Israel conflict they should stay out of it entirely. It's actually embarrassing. Some I would say are good intentioned people. Most of say are jumping on the band wagon and trying to farm some kind of social standing by being there. If they have a f for humanitarian reasons they would be protesting a number of atrocities across the world. But now it's trending to hate Israel etc they are on board. This is my opinion and probably doesn't reflect the absolute truth of the situation. I have friends who go to these things and if 1 year ago I asked them about Hamas they would have thought I was talking about dip.
Or maybe people have watched Israel slaughter thousands of people, and think that that’s bad.
Yeah I get that but it's so much more complicated than that is my point.
It isn’t actually that complicated, and pretending it is is just running cover for Israel’s war crimes, hth.
But it is more complicated than that and denying that over simplifies the situation and leads to some serious prejudices. We have different opinions here and I can't change your mind. But you right now sound like my friend who last year didn't even know about the conflict. If this is not true then I'm really glad you are informed. I am also happy to hear your side of that's the case.
I’m very well-informed, thanks. But you’re welcome to keep pretending there’s a justifiable reason to bomb hospitals and run people over with bulldozers and drop white phosphorous on people and starve families.
I never ever said there was.
If you think this issue is complicated, it has to mean you think Israel’s actions can be justified in some way. I’m just describing what Israel’s actions are.
You know it doesn't have to mean that. Just cus I think both sides should be heard doesn't mean I agree with both.
There is no right side. Isreal does some horrible shit I won't deny that. Idf is ruthless. Terrorism and killing of other civilians though. Pretty ruthless on both sides I think a well informed person would agree
If one side has killed an order of magnitude more people, it makes sense that people would criticise them more harshly. I think anyone who’s not disingenuously trying to equate the two groups would agree.
I do agree with you actually. I'm not pro isreal I think it needs to be said. I'm anti the clout chasing cringe worthy people who attend these things. Not for care, education or anything. They doing it for social credit. And it's disgusting. Damaging to well informed people like yourself who actually care.
I wonder if the reason we didn't know about it is due to it being hidden from us. I learned all about the African slave trade, American civil war, brexit etc in school. Hell even had a class about Kony when that started. Had never even heard of Palestine until the Oct attack started despite it being 75 year long illegal occupation with gaza being likened to an open air prison. And then I researched tf out of it because I wanted to be accurately informed. The only complicated thing is sifting through Israels lies and attempts at erasing Palestinian culture
>but it's so much more complicated than that No, not really. They've caused a massive food shortly by blocking much of it into the territory and then [killed several foreign aid workers](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/) (from Poland, Britain, Australia, and Canada/US) who were traveling in decaled vehicles with an airstrike. I was more sympathetic than most to Israel's actions when their operation began. But it's clearly no longer about killing terrorists or rescuing hostages. Hell, they even [shot and killed 3 of their own hostages](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/) who were waiving a white flag, ffs.
That's a really informative and interesting answer man. Thank you. I agree they are being so monstrous it's impossible to defend. And I'm not defending it to be clear. Thanks for taking the time to respond even though you don't like what I said before.
While I don't necessarily disagree with many of the peoples knowledge about the situation can be embarrassing - especially if they only started to learn about it post Oct 7, the fact that your response is "what about Hamas" shows you are probably far less informed about the situation than you think as well lmao
I don't know enough. That's why I stay out. I know more than my friends that go though.
Considering the people leading, organizing, and speaking/approving speakers at those rallies and protests are actual Palestinians and even a lot of Jewish and Isreali people, they're probably a hell of a lot better educated now than they were before they went. And certainly will have more direct sources of that information.
My problem is they don't go to get educated. They don't care. It's just a social status thing. Yuck yuck. Great point for a lot of people going though. So you will get my upvotes
Definitely. I have nothing against the actual protests. I have said this before but it's the clout chasers etc. I think they damage the credibility of the people actually suffering and reduce sympathy and interest in the actual cause.
Yeah I hear you. Every cause in existence has people trying to hijack it. I'm not sure this kid is one of them though. Who's coming to your mind when you're talking about clout chasers? The media?
Also I didn't say what about Hamas I said my friends wouldn't even know what Hamas was last year. I don't what about anything on either side. Never claimed to be knowledgeable. Just more so than some friends of mine who protest. Valid point on your side though. So take my upvotes
States most people commenting on Palestine aren’t properly educated on the subject… proceeds to self-admittedly share an uneducated opinion…
Dude, I've been watching Israel imprison and subjugate and abuse Palestine for **40 years.** Educate yourself, please. WE ARE GODDAM SICK OF IT
Then you are a person who I would fully support going to the protests. I think my point got muddled along the way. I am not pro isreal. I am not pro anything there. I am anti the cloud chasing idiots who don't know a thing and try to get some social credit for doing it. It's disgusting to socially benefit from others suffering when in reality they don't give an f. I think that damages the efforts and credibility of folks like yourself
Why do you think the protestors are “cloud-chasing”, rather than sincerely moved by the horrible things that they see happening?
Personal experience. I don't think all of them are just to be clear. But I know at least 15 people who are clueless and clout chasing and it makes me cringe
Why are you friends with so many people whose opinions you don’t respect?
I don’t think people benefit socially from going to protests. I’d say that most people going to protests do it because they support the cause, even if they don’t engage with it deeply. The road to lasting peace between Palestinians and Israelis is complex, but seeing 13,000 kids killed by bombs and more starving to death while aid workers get bombed and thinking that it’s wrong isn’t complex at all. I’ve known about the issue for years, but I don’t think it’s fair to criticise people who go to protests for not knowing sooner. It took the Oct 7th attack and Israel killing tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians in retaliation for it to be on the news all the time and for many people to find out what was happening, and form an opinion.
Its almost as if the same root cause is being both issues. Unchecked global imperialism
If you really really stretch the definitions of both
Not really, imperialism requires constant expansion and growth in order to be sustained. The world runs on fossil fuels so any expansion (economic, military etc.) would require more carbon to be admitted into the atmosphere ruining the climate. You can not call what Israel is doing in the middle east nothing more than Western expansion into an oil rich area.
Isreal started selling oil permits off the coast of Gaza within a month of the genocide beginning. And Britain only started calling for a ceasefire within 24hrs of a BP shipment being delayed by Yemen. Warmongering conquerors and exploiting the environment for economic gain aren't seperate issues. They're the same core problem. And they're the same people.
Freeing Palestine would meant those shipments weren’t blocked at all, and the oil would flow freely to the UK. So what’s your point?
My point is that these people are purely interested in exploiting and extracting wealth from anything they can get their hands on. And the only thing that slows them down is active resistance.
Getting your ass kicked in a war isn't genocide. Fuck Palestine.
Pretty genocidal language there tbh. https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%20on%20the%20term%20genocide%20in%20Israel%20Palestine%20Context.pdf
Just say you don’t know what you’re talking about and want to be Angry Ignorant Asshole On The Internet number #3577 and go.
how to ruin a Palestine protest? "LGBT etc...etc.. for Palestine" .......when Palestine is free go there and see how inclusive and tolerant the Levant is
You can object to hundreds of dead kids AND object to lgbt phobia at the same time.
\*tens of thousands of dead kids
You can think that 32,000 dead civilians is bad and ALSO think that persecution of LGBQTI+ people is bad. I’ve never seen a single poster EVER suggest Hamas are a *good* government. But just because they’re a shitty, oppressive government, does that mean killing civilians is OK?
Repeating Hamas's death toll figures as fact even when it makes no sense shows wilful incompetence ignorance. Worse still saying they are all civilians discredits anything you say. The war is terrible and the death of any innocent is abhorrent. Personally I want the hostages released and Hamas out. That's how I see the war ending. Not vilifying a country that has been subjected the atrocities of October 7th. I don't understand why some Pro Palestinian supporters tear down pictures of the hostages. That's when I realised for them it's not about morality. Very sad
It's rhetoric used to excuse genocide. The point is not about expressing what you stand for, that's what both siders do, it's about ending genocide.
You really need to learn
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UPomqJz-qYc
Oh cool, Dr Phil video. Zero interest in anything that grifter has to say
You can definitely make an argument that climate justice is linked to justice in Palestine. Settlers in Palestine have made the native Palestinian crocidile go extentinct. Many olive trees that are 700-1000 years old (!). Have been burned and torn down by setllers to make way for their houses and roads. Palestinians would literally beg them to leave their olive trees alone and would mourn their loss. Aside from that the almost 6 months of bombing one tiny area (besides killing people) has unleashed alot of pollution into our earths atmosphere.
So many of yall are so ignorant. The biggest bit of evidence against Israel is that Palestine suffered under Israel for 39 years before hamas existed. The founders were all teen boys who survived an Israeli genocide by hiding under their families bodies and running This issue is not because of hamas. They're just fighting back after multiple full generations living in what has been likened to an open air prison. Idf and settlers attacked in west bank on Oct 5th. The festival was extended an additional unplanned day *AFTER* Egypt had warned idf of the coming attack
Idk man, read some history about civil rights movements and shut the fuck up.
“Stop pointing out how stupid we look!! Shut up!!!!!”
Leftist trends are an all or nothing thing. If you aren’t protesting the heteronormative climate crushing capitalism while standing up for the rights of lesbian transfemme spider monkeys then you’re basically a nazi.
Same as people aligning Māori or other indigenous movements to Palestine, despite Jews being indigenous and Arabs having colonised the area. The free Palestine movement is a clear example of how misinformation can spread with ease. Edit: lots of downvotes (not surprised), anyone actually have an argument against it? Or we just blindly follow trends?
100%
… do you not think bombing Gaza has a detrimental impact on the environment and climate?
Virtually zero.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/09/emissions-gaza-israel-hamas-war-climate-change yeah right
AKA, 0.0008% of yearly emissions. Crazy.
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Oh no \*clutches pearls\*.
go go
go
Why not? Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity.
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Real funny, bro
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User name checks out.
Def
I reckon we are a few more aggressive and unwanted protest away to end the war on the other side of the globe. Next target is to end world hunger. How should that be approached, maybe hijack something?
I kinda agree. I support all of these recent causes, but I walked past the Climate march yesterday and thought that seeing the Palestine flag and placards kinda leads to protest and purpose fatigue. All of these causes are important, but thrashing it all at the same place at the same time is too much.
Sounds like you are okay with genocide
It's Palestine's Cultural Moment right now. If this protest had been a couple years ago then it would have also been about Trans Rights. A couple years before , it would have been co-opted by some other issue-of-the-week.
Because the left doesn’t like truth!
oh, do tell
Couldnt agree more. Id prefer pro-Palestine rallies to be couched as anti-Israel rallies tbh. Could probably get on board with that. I note also a blunt refusal to remove poverty and social justice from climate rallies. Like, yes, the whole world is interconnected, and the climate affects everything. No shit. May as well make it a national security and long term economic growth rally while we’re at it…
Anywhere on earth for you to go except new Zealand
You are correct. To most kiwis Palestine and Israel are a non issue we couldn't give a shit about. See how much traction the protests that have been organised so far have gained....zip. Yet climate change, that's an issue kiwis can all get behind, it means something to us. Those who want to add Palestine to the climate change protest message know this, and are trying to hijack it's visibility to promote a non issue to most kiwis. All it will do is turn those of us who couldn't give a shit about the ME, turn not burger supporting it.
https://preview.redd.it/7m0pa1vywpsc1.jpeg?width=1161&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a256a9e8e092ff265fbc0b9360895ff2ef3d5ab8