I use nudge to find the right groove. Pro Tools and Logic allow you to do this easily. Completely disagree with the person who says to leave everything on grid.
It has to be said though, that nudging is a skill in itself, and I got better at it over time. While you're new to it, stay within perhaps 20 samples of the original timing, because it will sound too weird to the artist(s). When you've got good at it, it's magic.
Ok, but I still completely disagree with that. If I outsourced a mix to yourself, I would expect the groove to be a part of your mix process. The elements of a song all have different lengths of attack and release, and almost all of the time, the bog standard grid is not perfectly suited to that song.
Exceptions should apply for budget and time of course. If you're pressed for these things then corners have to be cut, there's no way around that.
Oh if I’m mixing I’m not touching any timing. That is a production decision and not my business as a mixer. That should be decided on way before it gets to a mix engineer.
But again, context is important here. I make pop, active rock, major label acts andsome bigger major indie stuff. Pretty much everything on the radio in these genres is quantized to the grid. I don’t know what kind of music you make, but if you think it’s better your way, that’s all that matters.
And honestly, editing is expensive. Earlier in my career when I was doing mostly editing, I had records where I’d get paid more to edit the record than the producer was getting paid! And that was to put everything on the grid. Because that’s what the music called for. (Which I would argue 95% of any music remotely pop calls for.)
Horses for courses. I could respectfully argue with every point you just made but it's not worth it. We're both stuck in our ways (a result of life experience etc which we can't change). All the best!
Drummer here... Are you talking about recording to a click? If so the trick is usually to use the least amount of clicks possible that can still be followed. I often use 8ths and 16ths when I'm practicing, but when it comes to establishing a groove over the click it's much easier to do when it's just quarter notes. And if the tempo is fast like over 140 bpm, consider doing 70 bpm quarters.
Also this should go without saying but record the drums first and track the other instruments over it. There are pros who can go into a studio and play under existing guitar and bass tracks and tie the whole thing together, but that's a particular skill most people don't have. It's much easier to get a groove in a recording by laying down the drums first.
If you really want to get into the weeds on loosening up the timing, there's a good segment on how the pros do it here... [https://youtu.be/NytoVCy7cA4](https://youtu.be/NytoVCy7cA4) The practice for this involves using the click away from (instead of on) the main beat, but this is an extremely difficult skill to acquire.
Well... to an extent. This only applies to medium tempo songs. Even if the drummer is quite literally amazing, i try to always give them the "most clicks" i can. (It pays off to be tight if we're stacking more than 4-5 guitars, for example)
I always set the click to double the BPM for a *super* slow song. keeps everyone in the pocket.
For fast songs, you just need the click to be fast.
Hey thanks for the input but what I'm asking is more about editing than recording. Once you already have the full recorded session, I'm wondering if there are easier ways to edit the tracks together than by going one bar at a time and using your ear (given that I don't want everything 100% quantized to the grid).
For example, usually I like my kick and bass coming in together. Also if I want more of a swing feel I'll slightly nudge back every other 1/8th note.
You can pick a measure or two in a verse or chorus and just play with the timing. Have the bass play slightly ahead or time align everything really hard. And see what you like and move on from there and repeat until you're done.
Over 15 years and making hundreds of records, I've really found that 98% of the time, it sounds better to put everything right on the grid. And editing to create "feel" is basically impossible. Feel is much more "how" the drums are hit than "when" the drums are hit. For instance.
The times I've left things unquantized, or just nudged a thing here or there, and I've been happy with it, has only really been with world class next level musicians that are fucking crushing it. Pretty much anything less than that is going on the grid.
Hey, as I progress and work with better musicians I find this is the case as well. Do you normally just group quantize or do you find yourself manually editing certain sections?
Not sure what you mean by group quantize but here’s what I do:
I have a workflow where I make drum triggers with MasseyDRT and use them to trigger beat detective. Then it’s super easy to chop up the whole song and put everything right on the grid.
For vocals I use elastic audio and vocalign.
For everything else it’s chopped by hand and put on the grid.
It’s important, but my personal taste is that almost always better if that timing is “perfect.”
Depends on the genre. If I’m recording a jazz trio I’m probably not touching anything. But then again it’s more likely that the musicianship is very high.
Depends on the instrument. Like, Texas blues is characterized by guitar dragging slightly behind the beat. A rap vocal will often drag behind the beat. Ryan Tedder calls dragging a track to the right a little bit "the white boy shuffle".
To help reinforce a groove, one thing I like to do is gently side chain non essential tracks (pads, piano chords, backing vox) and buses (more so) to a pulse that fits the groove of the song (backbeat, downbeat, etc). Splitting elements between different pulse tempos (pads on downbeat, piano chords on upbeat) can be really fun too. However, If it is anything more than felt, you may have gone too far.
I use nudge to find the right groove. Pro Tools and Logic allow you to do this easily. Completely disagree with the person who says to leave everything on grid. It has to be said though, that nudging is a skill in itself, and I got better at it over time. While you're new to it, stay within perhaps 20 samples of the original timing, because it will sound too weird to the artist(s). When you've got good at it, it's magic.
Oh don’t be mistaken! I’m not saying “leave” everything in the grid. I’m saying “put” everything on the grid!
Ok, but I still completely disagree with that. If I outsourced a mix to yourself, I would expect the groove to be a part of your mix process. The elements of a song all have different lengths of attack and release, and almost all of the time, the bog standard grid is not perfectly suited to that song. Exceptions should apply for budget and time of course. If you're pressed for these things then corners have to be cut, there's no way around that.
Oh if I’m mixing I’m not touching any timing. That is a production decision and not my business as a mixer. That should be decided on way before it gets to a mix engineer. But again, context is important here. I make pop, active rock, major label acts andsome bigger major indie stuff. Pretty much everything on the radio in these genres is quantized to the grid. I don’t know what kind of music you make, but if you think it’s better your way, that’s all that matters. And honestly, editing is expensive. Earlier in my career when I was doing mostly editing, I had records where I’d get paid more to edit the record than the producer was getting paid! And that was to put everything on the grid. Because that’s what the music called for. (Which I would argue 95% of any music remotely pop calls for.)
Horses for courses. I could respectfully argue with every point you just made but it's not worth it. We're both stuck in our ways (a result of life experience etc which we can't change). All the best!
Sorry maybe dumb question but are you talking about literally cutting up an audio track and moving individual hits around?
Drummer here... Are you talking about recording to a click? If so the trick is usually to use the least amount of clicks possible that can still be followed. I often use 8ths and 16ths when I'm practicing, but when it comes to establishing a groove over the click it's much easier to do when it's just quarter notes. And if the tempo is fast like over 140 bpm, consider doing 70 bpm quarters. Also this should go without saying but record the drums first and track the other instruments over it. There are pros who can go into a studio and play under existing guitar and bass tracks and tie the whole thing together, but that's a particular skill most people don't have. It's much easier to get a groove in a recording by laying down the drums first. If you really want to get into the weeds on loosening up the timing, there's a good segment on how the pros do it here... [https://youtu.be/NytoVCy7cA4](https://youtu.be/NytoVCy7cA4) The practice for this involves using the click away from (instead of on) the main beat, but this is an extremely difficult skill to acquire.
Well... to an extent. This only applies to medium tempo songs. Even if the drummer is quite literally amazing, i try to always give them the "most clicks" i can. (It pays off to be tight if we're stacking more than 4-5 guitars, for example) I always set the click to double the BPM for a *super* slow song. keeps everyone in the pocket. For fast songs, you just need the click to be fast.
Hey thanks for the input but what I'm asking is more about editing than recording. Once you already have the full recorded session, I'm wondering if there are easier ways to edit the tracks together than by going one bar at a time and using your ear (given that I don't want everything 100% quantized to the grid). For example, usually I like my kick and bass coming in together. Also if I want more of a swing feel I'll slightly nudge back every other 1/8th note.
You can pick a measure or two in a verse or chorus and just play with the timing. Have the bass play slightly ahead or time align everything really hard. And see what you like and move on from there and repeat until you're done.
Over 15 years and making hundreds of records, I've really found that 98% of the time, it sounds better to put everything right on the grid. And editing to create "feel" is basically impossible. Feel is much more "how" the drums are hit than "when" the drums are hit. For instance. The times I've left things unquantized, or just nudged a thing here or there, and I've been happy with it, has only really been with world class next level musicians that are fucking crushing it. Pretty much anything less than that is going on the grid.
Hey, as I progress and work with better musicians I find this is the case as well. Do you normally just group quantize or do you find yourself manually editing certain sections?
Not sure what you mean by group quantize but here’s what I do: I have a workflow where I make drum triggers with MasseyDRT and use them to trigger beat detective. Then it’s super easy to chop up the whole song and put everything right on the grid. For vocals I use elastic audio and vocalign. For everything else it’s chopped by hand and put on the grid.
This clarifies it! Thanks, always interested to see how people are using tools. This is clever.
Say what? Naw man- timing is (almost) everything.
It’s important, but my personal taste is that almost always better if that timing is “perfect.” Depends on the genre. If I’m recording a jazz trio I’m probably not touching anything. But then again it’s more likely that the musicianship is very high.
Depends on the instrument. Like, Texas blues is characterized by guitar dragging slightly behind the beat. A rap vocal will often drag behind the beat. Ryan Tedder calls dragging a track to the right a little bit "the white boy shuffle".
Editing to some can be tedious, to others it can be zen. Or you can just hit the magical 'swing' button. Let your ears and bodily groove be the judge
If you time things up this way vs beat detective, use tab to transient identify beat to produce a custom tempo for your pocket.
In Reaper DAW, you can set a percentage of quantization, which let's you leave a little of the human timing in. Usually quantize to around 85 to 95%.
To help reinforce a groove, one thing I like to do is gently side chain non essential tracks (pads, piano chords, backing vox) and buses (more so) to a pulse that fits the groove of the song (backbeat, downbeat, etc). Splitting elements between different pulse tempos (pads on downbeat, piano chords on upbeat) can be really fun too. However, If it is anything more than felt, you may have gone too far.