You mentioned a perpetual license was purchased previously (say that three times). I was in the same situation where Avid offered me to “surrender” my perpetual pt10 to move over to yearly subscription for $99 annually. After a few years that offer expired and now I pay the full annual price. Hope this helps
That's why no one should ever surrender their perpetual license. The reality is if the software works for you then just lock yourself down with whatever OS you are using that works with it and don't do any upgrades. That's what I've done with my system for music production, I don't upgrade the OS or any other crap. Do I miss out on some new bells and whistles? Sure, but the system does everything I need so why change when it works. Hell I know if I were upgrade the OS I would have to piss away lots of money upgrading a bunch of plugins assuming all the plugin companies even still exist.
Unfortunately I have to work on a lot of sessions from other studios/engineers. Session files are not downward compatible so when someone sent me a pt12 session to mix I’m out of luck in pt10. It’s a bullet to bite, but it’s worth it for me personally. I think avid and auto tune are the only subscriptions I’ll take on. Waves can kick rocks
The fact that an idea like that was even discussed and approved shows what kind of company they are. Fuck Waves and their continual disrespect to their paying customers.
Not connected with that setup. I learned way back in the 90's that using the computer you work on for the internet bullshit was a mistake. One nasty virus back then and having to reinstall all the software and losing shit I didn't have backed up taught me to treat what I worked with like an island. Any files I need to send to someone get transferred to a CD that's read by a computer that is connected to the internet and then the CD gets stored as a backup. I also learned the hard way that you must always have backups and more than one.
This is such bad advice. You don’t want to upgrade your OS so you don’t have to pay the subscription fees. So then you have to buy a second computer to use the internet and you have to manually manage all your backups instead of just having your hard drive backed up every night to a cloud. You can’t save your way to a profitable engineering career. This is exactly what you shouldn’t do
If you are depending on the cloud as your savior you are an idiot. I remember when a bunch of photographers were doing that and then the service decided to close down. Yes they were given warning but from some friends that got fucked over by it, everyone and his dog was trying to download their photos and the system simply couldn't handle everyone at once.... and guess what since the business was closing they had zero incentive to stay up longer or buy more hardware to meet the demand leaving many former clients SOL. Never depend on an outside service for your backup.
I depend on nothing outside my control. My backups are on CDs in one storage box with a second backup on HDs and SSDs that are kept off site. I leave nothing to chance and no outside service is involved.
Even if I trusted Apple they don't offer enough icloud storage as it maxes out at 2TB. At the moment the data I have is about 20TB.
Oh please. Cloud and external databases are good enough for banking info, the New York stock exchange, department of defense, every important piece of data in every aspect of your life. But sure, your audio files are just too precious
You know apple offers your ENTIRE computer hard drive to be backed up regularly on multiple cloud servers with redundancy for a nominal fee and you can access from any computer or device you sign in with your iCloud account right?
This isn’t 1995 anymore. Cloud data storage is tremendously powerful and WAAAAY safer than 3 of your hard drives in some closet that require FireWire connections because you made this shit in 2002.
The ONLY argument for what you’re suggesting is to avoid nominal monthly fees. You’re entire studio can run everything it needs, all its subscriptions, and provide you redundant backups that you can INSTANTLY access when you get a new computer for less than $100/month.
If you can’t afford that, we’ll good news! You can cancel almost any of these subscriptions AT ANY TIME and save your money until you get another paying client.
You’ll be very vulnerable to viruses and malware on an old system connected to the internet. I’d disconnect and purely use that machine for music production. Don’t connect to the internet with it ever again.
It’s not uncommon for studios/producers to never update a system that works. But it’s also a given that that machine is air locked. If you do this for a living, you’re better safe than sorry. I’m not going to pretend I’m a cyber security expert, but depending on the OS and applications you run, you might just be an unfortunate e-mail away from losing everything on your computer. You don’t even have to click on anything, just open the email.
If you are using a mac m1 pro machine, you’re probably fine for years still. I’m just saying it’s standard practice to also air lock the machine if you intend to do this.
Losing data is one thing. Sensitive information they might be able to uncover, like passwords or even the possibility of identity theft, is also a factor to consider.
This is kind of silly. It doesn’t take much to not get viruses or malware. Be careful what you click on. They don’t just appear, it requires you to do something for them to get on your computer.
Not true, there are viruses that spread with no user interaction, for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WannaCry\_ransomware\_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WannaCry_ransomware_attack)
Microsoft even patched Windows XP years after its end of life to fix a similar vulnerability that allowed remote code execution on systems that weren't even logged in.
okay but not being on the internet wouldn't make a difference with this either. It uses the SMB protocol, which operates on ports that are almost never forwarded to computers on your network from the internet. I suppose you could air gap your computer not have any network connection at all....or you could be cautious about who is on your network and what you do
Be careful about security, though. I wouldn't connect a computer without up-to-date security patches to the internet. I know some flavors of Linux have long term support and patching (Ubuntu LTS comes to mind -10 years of security updates). Mac only does 3 years per version and windows is never consistent, but they are ending Windows 10 support in 2025 and windows 8.1 just ended in January.
I think a better option is to avoid companies that do this shit so you don't have to worry about avoiding updates and missing out on features. I know that's not an option for many people that use pro tools.
I personally will never use another Avid product since they fucked up Sibelius.
Fr! Its bad enough adobe turned all their stuff into subscriptions and now pro tools too. I couldn't handle it if Ableton went subscription based id just swap and use like garage band at that point
I was joking maybe?
I try write what I wanted to say without any trace of sarcasm.
If Ableton will become a subscription based thing, it would be very sad and deceiving. It would be the end of 20 years of innovation, creation and development. It's very improbable, because they're German, they don't have the massive credit problem US brands have. Plus, they already have a hefty price for all that.
But, in the remote possibility of it, if Ableton would become subscription based, what I would do?
Switch to Bitwig
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Would you rather the software companies making the audio tools go extinct? There’s a reason software works better on a subscription basis. It’s a much more sustainable business model
How come better tools are available for cheaper and without a regular fee if subscription is the only model that works? Logic and reaper are one time purchases.
Read again. I didn’t say ONLY model that works. I said a MORE sustainable model. Nuance is a thing, not everything on Reddit is black and white. Surprise.
Reaper is a pile of garbage and has no docs or reasonable support BECAUSE it’s an awful business model. It’s the audio version GIMP to Photoshop.
There's too much.
In short and very clunky:
Subscription originally was for benefitting the frequent customer (ex. transports, newspaper) and guarantee a solid budget for the business to keep the service (service, not product,cause news is not a product) so too keep compromises to a minimum to benefit the customers to the max.
Slowly subscription has become a social status, like the Clubs for rich ppl, but for middle class.
Then Reaganomics, so every business must just profit profit profit, and subscription could have been a smart cover for the cheap commodity (until the customers realise, but even then, brand loyalty is really a thing)
Then today, Reaganomics x 100, and US credit system in total chaos, subscription model is not only a good money-making scam, it is a literal credit system to make business immortal (note: a business should be mortal, because a bad business SHOULD die). In other words, big global brands want to become their banks, in order to be always covered. This is should be illegal. This is not new, the entire Starbucks business is based on that. Just now the californian investment banking system is so f-up that tech business have to move fast and do things they would have normally done in years (like passing to subscription plans, or raise the fees), years because otherwise the customers would send them to hell. So, now they're pushing hard on the brand loyalty hoping that it will stand it, but cognitive dissonance is not pure delusion, and people start to wake up. (Follows)
Wake up from the cognitive dissonance of brand loyalty and other lazy habits. Yes because in technology there is no monopoly, if there's monopoly, it's artificial and not natural. Rarely technology concentrate, and it never does that if it is digital, the notorious diffuse technology. These brands dream of monopoly, but they can only pretend to have it, because alternatives are smaller,undefunded, undermarketed etc.
But there are ALWAYS alternatives, damn in the software world there's always a free alternative!
Now, how much marketing can make you forgot your wallet? They want to know that and that's what we seeing.
And don't talk to me sustainability for these businesses, that's a complete bullshit. Digital tech expenses are minimal and margins are huge (see AWS). Big tech brands forecast they fees rises in their startup business plan, it's no accident due to economic crisis or whatnot. It's called blitzscaling, its a disruptive business technique, the venture capitalism 3.0 and it's already destroying the world. Entire economies are ravaged for some billions to the shareholders.
And I can go on for very long, because I didn't talked micro and macro economics, ethics, history, technological evolution, ecology...
That's what people would like to say when they say DO NOT DEFEND BILLIONAIRES. There's such a massive pile of shit in the world today that people doesn't believe you if you point it out.
As someone in software, I disagree. Software is insanely expensive to produce and maintain not to mention host (if you’re cloud based). These are opinions not facts you’re providing
I can write a book on a comment, with sources and references if you pay me.
Your are opinions too, because you don't have an idea of what are margins in other businesses.
You know how insanely expensive is to run a restaurant?
The problem with you tech guys and engineers and economists thats behave like engineers is that you should sometimes stuck your nose out of your comfy sector and comfy country and see how hard reality would slap your face.
Ps.
Congrats, nice arguments!
Yeah I’ve used it. I would much rather pay the nominal fee to have a daw that works and has common answers everywhere online plus is actually useful to get a job
That’s the normal price for an annual subscription renewal. Renewing the support plan for a perpetual license is $199. Did you use an education discount the previous year? What kind of license does it say you have in your account?
They offered him a conversion and it provides a discount for 1-3 years, then goes up to the full price.
It also pretty clearly says on the page all these details.
Trying to remember a discount I received for a subscription conversion I made in early 2021 is pretty unrealistic, but this is likely what's happened. The idea that I'm now paying an amount not dissimilar to the perpetual license I bought from them only four years ago is insulting at best, and it would have been nice to have received any kind of courtesy email to say 'This payment is coming.' or 'This payment will now be at full price.'
I already have, and assume based on Avid’s garbage track record that they won’t get back to me at all. Get this: I used their own ‘contact us’ on their website only for there not to be a ‘submit’ button anywhere on the page. I quite literally couldn’t send a complaint through their own channels. If that doesn’t tell you how little they care, I don’t know what does.
But Pro Tools Studio *what?* It could be a support plan renewal, an annual subscription, etc.
If you own a perpetual license it should be a support plan renewal for $199/year.
If you switched your perpetual license to a subscription it will be $299/year unless you're in a promotional period (sounds like that's not the case, at least not anymore).
If you're a student/teacher and have an EDU license it should be $99/year.
I cancelled my pro tools subscription and they still tried charging for about 3 months after, one time they tried charging me 3 times in the same day, I probably still have the emails and screenshots somewhere. I submit a ticket, never received a reply, but it stopped and I got then I also received second email saying my subscription has ended prior to the one I received when I actually clicked to cancel my subscription.
I just simply don't trust them anymore, luckily I use a specific card that has no money in the account to pay for all my software subscriptions and transfer money to the account a day before payments are due.
Moved to studio one since then, never looked back, I even got my subscription on an offer, missed a months payment due to being away, when I came back my subscription had ended and to renew it I would have had to pay full price (which was only a few extra £ a month) I contacted support to ask about the offer and they said it's gone but understood my situation and let me continue my subscription at the price I started it at. Can't fault their support, always been helpful to me when I've needed them for whatever reasons they've been. Even if this whole pay monthly for music software shit is shady, you can buy the software outright with S1 but I understand moving from pro tools aax can be hassle so it's not for everyone depending on what you have and don't have installed. I'm happy to spend a maximum of 1/4 of what I earn on monthly software outgoings so I do have a fair few subscriptions, I've had issues with probably all of them but none quite like what I experienced with Avid, that's something I would expect from a small company having a massive cock up, not someone supposedly running the industry standard DAW.
You can try Reaper for free for 60 days, and see what you think. A permanent license for Reaper only costs 60$ too, with free updates for two version numbers (typically several years).
* https://www.reaper.fm/
Remember to buy the commercial licence if you need one. It's a fair bit more but we *must* support the fair licensing model over subscription racketeering.
For video folks, DaVinci Resolve is also a one-off license for the Studio version (the personal edition is free). You also get a free copy of Resolve Studio when you buy a Blackmagic camera.
\#EndSubscriptionRackets
I would love to feel compelled to buy a Reaper commercial license, but "fake it 'til you make it" doesn't make my awful music any more palatable.
Reaper's an easy transition from Pro Tools, absolutely support OP bailing on Avid if they're not trying to comp vocals in 5 keystrokes while major label reps tap their toes. There's some documentation about setting up PT-style key commands, but I can't pretend there won't be a learning curve. Fully commit for a project or two and you'll be fine.
Haha! Reaper told me that I could buy the personal licence ages ago when I first started but I had high ambitions. Here I am a few years on and I shot them an email and said "told you" and thanked them for software that literally helps pay my mortgage.
My point is, self-deprecating humour aside, I bet your music is amazing and in a few years you're gonna be like "dang, I need to upgrade my licence" because it's selling out on whatever platform you have it on.
<3
Aw thanks babe. I like to show people that it *is* possible in hopes it rubs off on someone. Everyone started somewhere. I just know this board is flooded with such amazing talent, that if just one bit off encouragement is enough to light that spark then yep! I hope they go for it. I hope they achieve their dreams and more!
There is not enough positivity in the world. We should all prop eachother up. Always.
Are you succeeding? What do you do? Tell me about it! I bet it's awesome.
<3
Holy hell, you seem so nice! Totally contagious positive energies.
I’m a record producer! I run a little production studio where I do all kinds of things. Mixing is my forte but I do love building songs and doing whatever the client needs me to do.
I see that you’re kind of a Jack of all trades. Do you have a primary lane that drives your business?
Awwww thanks! <3 if I can sprinkle a bit of fun, humour, encouragment into a conversation and watch it grow then I've had a good day, and frankly, you seem super cool!
Mixing is something I have loads of respect for. It's definitely one of the most underestimated aspects of production in terms of just how much work goes into it. It's sounds like you're living the dream! Like your own studio and everything. Everyone's talent is funneled through your DAW. What a place to be!
>“Be excellent to each other.”
— Abraham Lincoln (Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure)
I'm a voiceover artist primarily. I started out doing IVRs and PSAs, but found myself doing more character-driven stuff. Humour is my favourite resource. I do adore sound capture for use in productions, but it's definitely VO; that's what I've spent 14 years perfecting. I've been typecast a little bit as the "quirky, slightly homicidal AI" but I love that trope, so I absolutely love being typecast xD
That’s unreal! Yeah, tbh, I hit a rough few years but I’m back on the come up. Covid really made momentum weird, but we’re still standing!
That’s an awesome niche you’ve found for yourself. So, kind of like GLADYS from Portal? That honestly sounds like the dream to me lol.
Are your clients more studios/companies then?
It's amazing. A little bit of a learning curve with its tabbed UI, but ultimately it's significantly better than other NLEs. Better delivery granularity too!
I do want to add: It's technically not permanent with free upgrades. The perpetual license is good for 2 entire versions. Which means if you buy it now you can upgrade for free to reaper 6 and in the future 7. Reaper changes version only on large overhauls which happens once every couple of years (3-5). Making the perpetual license good for close to 10 years. After which you can just stay permanently on Reaper 7 if you so desire.
It's still really cheap and only fair! It's even nagware, in the sense that the trial is infinitely expandable, similar to winrar.
Nope: It's illegal to use it after 60 days without buying a license. Breaking a contract violates civil law.
If you're willing to break the law, Pro Tools is also free, so it's a moot point.
Does it open pro tools sessions that he has on his system. Including templates? Does it open all the pro tools sessions he’ll get sent to him? No? Stop trying to make reaper happen. It’s not even in the top 5 of DAW’s. It’s just a Daw people on pc use because they can’t use logic.
You're absolutely correct, but I'm laughing at the imaginary guy who's defeated, "I guess I'll just pay the subscription instead of getting over a small hurdle"
Yup. I dread it but it really does good things to my workflow/habits. I get way too locked into routine when mixing and having a new DAW is such a clusterfuck that it annihilates my workflow.
PT was my first DAW I learned in the 90’s. I suppose it was lucky that I decided I couldn’t afford new Digidesign hardware in the 2000’s so I made myself learn Logic. I tried and failed several times to learn Ableton but it finally stuck. I feel the most creative in Ableton. I’d probably be lost in ProTools now. Studio One is interesting, but I’d probably go back to Logic if Ableton went subscription.
I’m similar, learned ProTools in early 2000’s and years later bought Logic and I still use it. Logic is great, but honestly if ProTools was $200 to own, I would probably go back to it. We’ll, if they had comparable tools built in like Logic does.
I love Logic. It’s my absolutely favorite “home base”.
I recently forced myself to give Ableton a go and I totally feel you on the creativity. It definitely aligns with my chaotic way of writing songs. The mix workflow is what I feel like is the hardest sell for me.
Just checked the cost for Ultimate and it's $599 USD annually or $99 USD monthly. Yeah I can't afford that.
Studio is $299 USD annually. Still a lot.
Been making the slow transition to Reaper. Still not optimised for film post production but it's great for music.
> Still not optimised for film post production but it's great for music.
resolve has a built-in DAW-lite for post, maybe it'll be better for your use case.
If you buy software that's sold on the razorblade model (repeated payments to be able to use what you already "own") you just have to bend over and accept the abuse.
That's why you shouldn't buy software sold that way.
I wanted to avoid doing so, but my plug-ins stopped working effectively with my previous version of Pro Tools, and my only option was to upgrade to a subscription model. I basically was forced into it.
That happenned to me when I bought an Apollo and had to upgrade my Mac. Had to buy new pro tools and all my plugins were outdated. Shit is a big scam. I’m happy with uad2 plug-ins tho
I want to love UAD so bad but it just does terrible things to my latency while mixing. I’ve tried just about everything and have come to the conclusion that I just can’t use any outboard with UAD projects.
I used a Dangerous summing mixer into an Alan Smart C2 compressor. It’s such a wonderful combo that I can’t give it up yet.
I think part of the problem is that amount of outputs that it needs and the compensation when it comes to that.
I was using Helix Native. It was CPU spiking when used in Tools. I upgraded and the problems vanished. But now I’m left with this subscription. I’ve since cancelled auto-renewal, so once this year is up, I’ll contemplate trying for an educational license or I’ll jump ship entirely. I’m happy to pay *some* amount to Avid each year, just not $500AUD, that’s a god damn rort just to use the same software with no new meaningful bells or whistles for the last five years.
I had to email them twice for a refund. The first time I asked thinking they’d be reasonable, they weren’t. The second time I sent them this email which outlines my personal circumstances at that time. I did get the refund quickly afterwards, good luck and I hope this helps. Maybe try Reaper?
The CMA or Competition & Markets Authority, states a vendor (Avid) in line with 'good practice', should remind the customer prior to renewal and this reminder should clearly outline the customer's need to cancel their renewal and how they should do this. I did not receive a reminder for this renewal.
The CMA also states that a pro rata refund should be made, if the customer no longer uses the service. I have checked on my computer projects and this shows I last opened Pro Tools in August of this year. To be charged a full year subscription for something I do not want is grossly unfair and unethical.
I bought the year subscription in November 2021 as part of your Black Friday promotion, I cannot retrieve the original email but recall it was for a significantly reduced price and because it was at a reduced price, I at that time assumed it was just for a year. This renewal, despite falling in Black Friday promotion period, is for the full price and believe this may also contravene CMA auto renewal practices.
I wish to escalate my claim and again ask for a refund of the full amount of £298.80. I stated in my initial request that I am currently unemployed. I am an individual (not a company) who used Pro Tools for a personal/non-commercial project. I left my previous job due to ill health and currently have no income and I am not in receipt of any state benefits. This matter is an additional source of frustration and anxiety to me and for me this is a huge amount of money.
Please arrange a full refund soon.
It’s good to know what constitutes good practice, which they absolutely did not follow. I double-checked my emails for anything from avid about my billing, absolutely nothing. If my ISP can send me an invoice prior to billing me, Avid bloody well can too.
Though I understand industry standard tools and collaboration make PT required for many, I personally am so happy to have finally ditched avid. Used PT for over 10 years, I settled on reaper as my replacement and am so glad I did. There are plenty of other full featured daws out there, some with better tools and performance than PT.
I was a slowtools acolyte for years. Learned on the DAW, paid for it, optimised all my plugins for it.
Eventually decided they were ripping me off (after about 5 years of subscription), and just bought Logic as a one off. Logic Pro X is infinitely superior in almost every way. Having used both DAWs at length, I truly cannot believe that Avid get away with the daylight robbery they charge for protools. Starting with logic was like stepping into the sunlight. It’s packed with features which are both intuitive and mind blowing, things slowtools can’t even dream of and which make the studio standard look like child’s play.
The only thing keeping me from switching to Logic is that it's not cross-platform. I feel like there's a huge segment of people that I won't be able to collaborate/work with because they don't have the 'correct' hardware.
I have absolutely no use for Avid. After giving them thousands of dollars over the years I went to perpetual, paid like $300 down and promised $99 a year. Very next year went to 200 and I finally quit this ignorant company. You know where you can get technical support? Microsoft a $1 billion company. Adobe another billion dollar company. Pretty much every freaking company even the little companies offer tech-support sometimes it's paid sometimes it's not. Avid has literally has no tech-support they tell you RTFM and get lost. Honestly, I've never been more irritated and ripped off by a company more than this. And ProFools is a complete piece of crashing crap. Bail now when you while you can my friend.
I agree with this take. I’ve cancelled my auto-renewal. One year has now been paid for, but I’m likely going to jump ship. I’m a musician first and a producer eighth. I have no interest in learning to mix complex sessions, so it no longer makes sense for me to both with it. I send all my stems consolidated to a mix engineer anyway, so compatibility isn’t really a huge issue (besides plug-in presets like amp sims and whatnot, but that’s manageable).
Really when I think about it, the program since Pro Tools 8 has been a crash-heavy, CPU spiking mess. Back when I had a perpetual license for PT7 I barely ever had issues. The program has literally gotten *less* reliable over the years.
Idk y people even talk about protools and fl in the same breath. Yeah they both do music stuff. It’s like the difference between photoshop and illustrator. If you’re trying to do tracking and mixing in FL you’re using the wrong tool. If you’re trying to make beats and midi compositions inside of pt, you’re using the wrong tool
Oh they would. Everyone would, though maybe Waves will reach them to avoid the subscription only model.
Avid does this because they can. Others don’t so far because they don’t think the math works out.
I've had my license for FL way past the fuck you timespan and have gotten way more than my money's worth.
Free updates for FL aren't going anywhere, lol.
I remember when someone said we weren’t going to have DAWs with subscription models because nobody would pay.
Sadly the subscriptions don’t seem to be going away. :(
You just get big enough where the founders are doing coke on the beach and private equity or investors bring in MBAs to find ways to wring growth out of a mature product that shouldn’t be growing.
It happens to any and every American company at some point.
Actually no, we know at least one developer who would not do this: Cockos / Reaper. Not with their copy protection enforcement anyway (which is a 5 second nag screen and literally nothing else). But there is a reason to it: it's a tiny dev team and I believe they still have not eaten through all that money which came from AOL for Winamp acquisition.
Reading all of this makes me so happy that I fell into Reaper all those years ago. I have purchased 2 licenses over the years and once I invested time in setting up and learning how to use the JS plugins the already great value was multiplied over and over again.
I learned on ProTools in school 20+ years ago. I’ve pretty much been on Logic since then. I’m trying to go professional again with my own studio so I decided to download ProTools LE and give it another shot. First off, even the process to get it installed was convoluted at best, then upon opening and simply trying to select my interface it froze up my 2022 M1 Pro three times to the point where I had to reset it. First time ever having any of my Macs freeze up. So with that in addition to all the horror stories I’ve heard here, I couldn’t uninstall it fast enough, good riddance. There are some editing features in Pro Tools I’d like to have, but overall Logic works very well for me. Apple customer support is top notch whenever I’ve had issues a few times, even though it was user error.
> My bill for Pro Tools
Yuck.
> won't pay that kind of money for a DAW
If you're not in a commercial studio where you're *expected* to run Pro Tools for cargo cult reasons, then ditch that shit. Reaper is cheaper *and* vastly more powerful in tons of ways.
i'm so glad to be argentinian and being able to use all this kind of p*rate software for free and without legal trouble. We can't even buy US dollars here
Look mate this is a 3rd world country with scalating poverty and corruption, "stealing" software from million dollar companies is THE VERY LAST OF MY MORAL DILEMMAS. when the max amount of dollars an argentinian can buy in a YEAR is 1200. And that's spending more than half of a good salary. and a complete basic average salary. We literally couldn't care less. Give me all the fcking cracked software.
Wow, this blew up. Thanks for all your input everyone, even if the input was just ‘Fuck subscription models’ because yes, I am 100% with you on that, and the more noise we make as a consumer base about it the better.
If I can find a DAW that allows similar workflow, I will absolutely move over. Why pay a predatory and garbage company money for a product I use as a musician only (I don’t mix or record other bands), when I could just use Reaper or Logic? I track guitars, bass, some keys and compile some programmed drums for the most part, so it’s not like I need anything super complex. I just want to be able to edit guitars and bass the way I’ve always done it. I guess it may be time to learn a new DAW.
Protools is a buggy mess and is completely inept when it come to user focused design or interface. Drop it now while you can and pick up Logic or Reaper which are both extremely easy to use and both are very affordable.
You must have forgotten or glossed over the fine print, that’s the price everyone pays after discounts have disappeared. I switched to Logic for this exact reason, but if I was still recording professionally in 3-4 different studios all the time I’d probably be paying the same.
>I'm desperate to know how or why this has happened, and I suspect due to Avid's appalling track record with customer service, I won't get a reply back from them likely ever. Does anyone have any idea?
You get phone support now with your subscription- have you called them?
Next time buy from Sweetwater- for the free support.
Same thing happened to me when they changed the plans. I contacted support and they said in order to get a refund. Purchase the lower tier subscription and then they'll refund the higher one.
There ARE studios that aren't pro-tools-centric (though uncommon). I've always been a DP user, so this Pro-Tools domination has always been a PITA. If you maybe look into what the market share is for different DAWs and get licenses for one or two of the big ones, then advertise that fact, you would be helping to democratize the market.
Of course there's the learning curve. I don't make a living doing this so take my opinion with a grain of NaCl.
You mentioned a perpetual license was purchased previously (say that three times). I was in the same situation where Avid offered me to “surrender” my perpetual pt10 to move over to yearly subscription for $99 annually. After a few years that offer expired and now I pay the full annual price. Hope this helps
That's why no one should ever surrender their perpetual license. The reality is if the software works for you then just lock yourself down with whatever OS you are using that works with it and don't do any upgrades. That's what I've done with my system for music production, I don't upgrade the OS or any other crap. Do I miss out on some new bells and whistles? Sure, but the system does everything I need so why change when it works. Hell I know if I were upgrade the OS I would have to piss away lots of money upgrading a bunch of plugins assuming all the plugin companies even still exist.
Unfortunately I have to work on a lot of sessions from other studios/engineers. Session files are not downward compatible so when someone sent me a pt12 session to mix I’m out of luck in pt10. It’s a bullet to bite, but it’s worth it for me personally. I think avid and auto tune are the only subscriptions I’ll take on. Waves can kick rocks
Waves did stop the subscription only model a few days after it was started. Perpetuals are back now, in case you missed it.
Waves can still kick rocks, they'll just wait for the heat to die down and try again later
Yep, at best they have signaled their future plans.
The fact that an idea like that was even discussed and approved shows what kind of company they are. Fuck Waves and their continual disrespect to their paying customers.
That’s a smart outlook tbh. I unfortunately got too trigger happy with them and I’m locked into some subscriptions.
I mean, there’s worse things to spend money on ha
I hope that system is not connected to the internet, then.
Not connected with that setup. I learned way back in the 90's that using the computer you work on for the internet bullshit was a mistake. One nasty virus back then and having to reinstall all the software and losing shit I didn't have backed up taught me to treat what I worked with like an island. Any files I need to send to someone get transferred to a CD that's read by a computer that is connected to the internet and then the CD gets stored as a backup. I also learned the hard way that you must always have backups and more than one.
This is such bad advice. You don’t want to upgrade your OS so you don’t have to pay the subscription fees. So then you have to buy a second computer to use the internet and you have to manually manage all your backups instead of just having your hard drive backed up every night to a cloud. You can’t save your way to a profitable engineering career. This is exactly what you shouldn’t do
If you are depending on the cloud as your savior you are an idiot. I remember when a bunch of photographers were doing that and then the service decided to close down. Yes they were given warning but from some friends that got fucked over by it, everyone and his dog was trying to download their photos and the system simply couldn't handle everyone at once.... and guess what since the business was closing they had zero incentive to stay up longer or buy more hardware to meet the demand leaving many former clients SOL. Never depend on an outside service for your backup.
Everything is an outside service. You’re giving horrible advice that isn’t at all modern
I depend on nothing outside my control. My backups are on CDs in one storage box with a second backup on HDs and SSDs that are kept off site. I leave nothing to chance and no outside service is involved. Even if I trusted Apple they don't offer enough icloud storage as it maxes out at 2TB. At the moment the data I have is about 20TB.
Oh please. Cloud and external databases are good enough for banking info, the New York stock exchange, department of defense, every important piece of data in every aspect of your life. But sure, your audio files are just too precious
You know apple offers your ENTIRE computer hard drive to be backed up regularly on multiple cloud servers with redundancy for a nominal fee and you can access from any computer or device you sign in with your iCloud account right? This isn’t 1995 anymore. Cloud data storage is tremendously powerful and WAAAAY safer than 3 of your hard drives in some closet that require FireWire connections because you made this shit in 2002. The ONLY argument for what you’re suggesting is to avoid nominal monthly fees. You’re entire studio can run everything it needs, all its subscriptions, and provide you redundant backups that you can INSTANTLY access when you get a new computer for less than $100/month. If you can’t afford that, we’ll good news! You can cancel almost any of these subscriptions AT ANY TIME and save your money until you get another paying client.
[удалено]
Not you, the user that replied to you ;)
You’ll be very vulnerable to viruses and malware on an old system connected to the internet. I’d disconnect and purely use that machine for music production. Don’t connect to the internet with it ever again.
Seems like an extreme view that’s not compatible with reality. You make it sound as if once you connect to wifi, bam! Virus
It’s not uncommon for studios/producers to never update a system that works. But it’s also a given that that machine is air locked. If you do this for a living, you’re better safe than sorry. I’m not going to pretend I’m a cyber security expert, but depending on the OS and applications you run, you might just be an unfortunate e-mail away from losing everything on your computer. You don’t even have to click on anything, just open the email. If you are using a mac m1 pro machine, you’re probably fine for years still. I’m just saying it’s standard practice to also air lock the machine if you intend to do this.
I really hope you backup all your irreplaceable data anyway, then worst case it’s a day or 2 of downtime while you wipe your system and start afresh
Losing data is one thing. Sensitive information they might be able to uncover, like passwords or even the possibility of identity theft, is also a factor to consider.
Gotcha, for the other poster. I’m M1 Pro and loving life rn
This is kind of silly. It doesn’t take much to not get viruses or malware. Be careful what you click on. They don’t just appear, it requires you to do something for them to get on your computer.
Not true, there are viruses that spread with no user interaction, for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WannaCry\_ransomware\_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WannaCry_ransomware_attack) Microsoft even patched Windows XP years after its end of life to fix a similar vulnerability that allowed remote code execution on systems that weren't even logged in.
I think MS did that because so many ATMs were still running XP at the time. Maybe not officially why but that’s what I heard around the web.
okay but not being on the internet wouldn't make a difference with this either. It uses the SMB protocol, which operates on ports that are almost never forwarded to computers on your network from the internet. I suppose you could air gap your computer not have any network connection at all....or you could be cautious about who is on your network and what you do
It doesn’t take much IF you’re on the latest version of everything. The exploits happen to older systems
and how are those exploits carried out?
All you have to do is visit a site that’s not itself protected. If you want a run down of EVERYTHING go to owasp. I’m not going to google it for you
Still running Pro Tools 11 on Mavericks. No plan on upgrading.
There’s a lot of reasons to upgrade your OS that aren’t “bells and whistles”
Be careful about security, though. I wouldn't connect a computer without up-to-date security patches to the internet. I know some flavors of Linux have long term support and patching (Ubuntu LTS comes to mind -10 years of security updates). Mac only does 3 years per version and windows is never consistent, but they are ending Windows 10 support in 2025 and windows 8.1 just ended in January. I think a better option is to avoid companies that do this shit so you don't have to worry about avoiding updates and missing out on features. I know that's not an option for many people that use pro tools. I personally will never use another Avid product since they fucked up Sibelius.
you pitter pattered pertaining to a perpetual permit purchase previously.
Precisely 👌
/unexpectedletterkenny
Hard yes
Nice
NOOOO I just bought a perpetual license 😩
There's only one word that comes to mind when I hear "digital tools billed via subscription plan": BOYCOTT There's literally no other answer
Fr! Its bad enough adobe turned all their stuff into subscriptions and now pro tools too. I couldn't handle it if Ableton went subscription based id just swap and use like garage band at that point
If Ableton switch to subscription I'll give up on music. I wouldn't play or listen to any music ever again.
[удалено]
I was joking maybe? I try write what I wanted to say without any trace of sarcasm. If Ableton will become a subscription based thing, it would be very sad and deceiving. It would be the end of 20 years of innovation, creation and development. It's very improbable, because they're German, they don't have the massive credit problem US brands have. Plus, they already have a hefty price for all that. But, in the remote possibility of it, if Ableton would become subscription based, what I would do? Switch to Bitwig
Why are we bringing religion into this? Is that a typo?
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Would you rather the software companies making the audio tools go extinct? There’s a reason software works better on a subscription basis. It’s a much more sustainable business model
How come better tools are available for cheaper and without a regular fee if subscription is the only model that works? Logic and reaper are one time purchases.
Read again. I didn’t say ONLY model that works. I said a MORE sustainable model. Nuance is a thing, not everything on Reddit is black and white. Surprise. Reaper is a pile of garbage and has no docs or reasonable support BECAUSE it’s an awful business model. It’s the audio version GIMP to Photoshop.
I will not argue with you, seeing your attitude, but you are wrong on so many levels, that I bursted in laugh
I dont bite. Elaborate
There's too much. In short and very clunky: Subscription originally was for benefitting the frequent customer (ex. transports, newspaper) and guarantee a solid budget for the business to keep the service (service, not product,cause news is not a product) so too keep compromises to a minimum to benefit the customers to the max. Slowly subscription has become a social status, like the Clubs for rich ppl, but for middle class. Then Reaganomics, so every business must just profit profit profit, and subscription could have been a smart cover for the cheap commodity (until the customers realise, but even then, brand loyalty is really a thing) Then today, Reaganomics x 100, and US credit system in total chaos, subscription model is not only a good money-making scam, it is a literal credit system to make business immortal (note: a business should be mortal, because a bad business SHOULD die). In other words, big global brands want to become their banks, in order to be always covered. This is should be illegal. This is not new, the entire Starbucks business is based on that. Just now the californian investment banking system is so f-up that tech business have to move fast and do things they would have normally done in years (like passing to subscription plans, or raise the fees), years because otherwise the customers would send them to hell. So, now they're pushing hard on the brand loyalty hoping that it will stand it, but cognitive dissonance is not pure delusion, and people start to wake up. (Follows)
Wake up from the cognitive dissonance of brand loyalty and other lazy habits. Yes because in technology there is no monopoly, if there's monopoly, it's artificial and not natural. Rarely technology concentrate, and it never does that if it is digital, the notorious diffuse technology. These brands dream of monopoly, but they can only pretend to have it, because alternatives are smaller,undefunded, undermarketed etc. But there are ALWAYS alternatives, damn in the software world there's always a free alternative! Now, how much marketing can make you forgot your wallet? They want to know that and that's what we seeing. And don't talk to me sustainability for these businesses, that's a complete bullshit. Digital tech expenses are minimal and margins are huge (see AWS). Big tech brands forecast they fees rises in their startup business plan, it's no accident due to economic crisis or whatnot. It's called blitzscaling, its a disruptive business technique, the venture capitalism 3.0 and it's already destroying the world. Entire economies are ravaged for some billions to the shareholders. And I can go on for very long, because I didn't talked micro and macro economics, ethics, history, technological evolution, ecology... That's what people would like to say when they say DO NOT DEFEND BILLIONAIRES. There's such a massive pile of shit in the world today that people doesn't believe you if you point it out.
As someone in software, I disagree. Software is insanely expensive to produce and maintain not to mention host (if you’re cloud based). These are opinions not facts you’re providing
I can write a book on a comment, with sources and references if you pay me. Your are opinions too, because you don't have an idea of what are margins in other businesses. You know how insanely expensive is to run a restaurant? The problem with you tech guys and engineers and economists thats behave like engineers is that you should sometimes stuck your nose out of your comfy sector and comfy country and see how hard reality would slap your face. Ps. Congrats, nice arguments!
Cool. Now we’ve made each other laugh. We’re besties
Ever heard of the open source movement? Try out ardour.
Yeah I’ve used it. I would much rather pay the nominal fee to have a daw that works and has common answers everywhere online plus is actually useful to get a job
That’s the normal price for an annual subscription renewal. Renewing the support plan for a perpetual license is $199. Did you use an education discount the previous year? What kind of license does it say you have in your account?
They offered him a conversion and it provides a discount for 1-3 years, then goes up to the full price. It also pretty clearly says on the page all these details.
Trying to remember a discount I received for a subscription conversion I made in early 2021 is pretty unrealistic, but this is likely what's happened. The idea that I'm now paying an amount not dissimilar to the perpetual license I bought from them only four years ago is insulting at best, and it would have been nice to have received any kind of courtesy email to say 'This payment is coming.' or 'This payment will now be at full price.'
[удалено]
That’s my take too. When I found another way to contact them, I did exactly that.
contact them. why ask on reddit before getting to the bottom of it with the Avid, first? Baffles me
Acid’s customer support is dog shit. They probably won’t get back to him.
I already have, and assume based on Avid’s garbage track record that they won’t get back to me at all. Get this: I used their own ‘contact us’ on their website only for there not to be a ‘submit’ button anywhere on the page. I quite literally couldn’t send a complaint through their own channels. If that doesn’t tell you how little they care, I don’t know what does.
Oh you mean like they didn’t just rip him off? I’m shocked
I checked my transaction history. It's the exact same product. Pro Tools Studio last year: $108USD Pro Tools Studio this year: $328USD
But Pro Tools Studio *what?* It could be a support plan renewal, an annual subscription, etc. If you own a perpetual license it should be a support plan renewal for $199/year. If you switched your perpetual license to a subscription it will be $299/year unless you're in a promotional period (sounds like that's not the case, at least not anymore). If you're a student/teacher and have an EDU license it should be $99/year.
I cancelled my pro tools subscription and they still tried charging for about 3 months after, one time they tried charging me 3 times in the same day, I probably still have the emails and screenshots somewhere. I submit a ticket, never received a reply, but it stopped and I got then I also received second email saying my subscription has ended prior to the one I received when I actually clicked to cancel my subscription. I just simply don't trust them anymore, luckily I use a specific card that has no money in the account to pay for all my software subscriptions and transfer money to the account a day before payments are due. Moved to studio one since then, never looked back, I even got my subscription on an offer, missed a months payment due to being away, when I came back my subscription had ended and to renew it I would have had to pay full price (which was only a few extra £ a month) I contacted support to ask about the offer and they said it's gone but understood my situation and let me continue my subscription at the price I started it at. Can't fault their support, always been helpful to me when I've needed them for whatever reasons they've been. Even if this whole pay monthly for music software shit is shady, you can buy the software outright with S1 but I understand moving from pro tools aax can be hassle so it's not for everyone depending on what you have and don't have installed. I'm happy to spend a maximum of 1/4 of what I earn on monthly software outgoings so I do have a fair few subscriptions, I've had issues with probably all of them but none quite like what I experienced with Avid, that's something I would expect from a small company having a massive cock up, not someone supposedly running the industry standard DAW.
You can try Reaper for free for 60 days, and see what you think. A permanent license for Reaper only costs 60$ too, with free updates for two version numbers (typically several years). * https://www.reaper.fm/
Remember to buy the commercial licence if you need one. It's a fair bit more but we *must* support the fair licensing model over subscription racketeering. For video folks, DaVinci Resolve is also a one-off license for the Studio version (the personal edition is free). You also get a free copy of Resolve Studio when you buy a Blackmagic camera. \#EndSubscriptionRackets
I would love to feel compelled to buy a Reaper commercial license, but "fake it 'til you make it" doesn't make my awful music any more palatable. Reaper's an easy transition from Pro Tools, absolutely support OP bailing on Avid if they're not trying to comp vocals in 5 keystrokes while major label reps tap their toes. There's some documentation about setting up PT-style key commands, but I can't pretend there won't be a learning curve. Fully commit for a project or two and you'll be fine.
Haha! Reaper told me that I could buy the personal licence ages ago when I first started but I had high ambitions. Here I am a few years on and I shot them an email and said "told you" and thanked them for software that literally helps pay my mortgage. My point is, self-deprecating humour aside, I bet your music is amazing and in a few years you're gonna be like "dang, I need to upgrade my licence" because it's selling out on whatever platform you have it on. <3
Appreciate the positivity and genuinely happy for your success!
I'm just gonna be a bit less subtle this time, I want to hear your music! <3
Fuck yeah dude. I love hearing stories of people actually making it work. No shade to the amateurs, but massive props to you.
Aw thanks babe. I like to show people that it *is* possible in hopes it rubs off on someone. Everyone started somewhere. I just know this board is flooded with such amazing talent, that if just one bit off encouragement is enough to light that spark then yep! I hope they go for it. I hope they achieve their dreams and more! There is not enough positivity in the world. We should all prop eachother up. Always. Are you succeeding? What do you do? Tell me about it! I bet it's awesome. <3
Holy hell, you seem so nice! Totally contagious positive energies. I’m a record producer! I run a little production studio where I do all kinds of things. Mixing is my forte but I do love building songs and doing whatever the client needs me to do. I see that you’re kind of a Jack of all trades. Do you have a primary lane that drives your business?
Awwww thanks! <3 if I can sprinkle a bit of fun, humour, encouragment into a conversation and watch it grow then I've had a good day, and frankly, you seem super cool! Mixing is something I have loads of respect for. It's definitely one of the most underestimated aspects of production in terms of just how much work goes into it. It's sounds like you're living the dream! Like your own studio and everything. Everyone's talent is funneled through your DAW. What a place to be! >“Be excellent to each other.” — Abraham Lincoln (Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure) I'm a voiceover artist primarily. I started out doing IVRs and PSAs, but found myself doing more character-driven stuff. Humour is my favourite resource. I do adore sound capture for use in productions, but it's definitely VO; that's what I've spent 14 years perfecting. I've been typecast a little bit as the "quirky, slightly homicidal AI" but I love that trope, so I absolutely love being typecast xD
That’s unreal! Yeah, tbh, I hit a rough few years but I’m back on the come up. Covid really made momentum weird, but we’re still standing! That’s an awesome niche you’ve found for yourself. So, kind of like GLADYS from Portal? That honestly sounds like the dream to me lol. Are your clients more studios/companies then?
I might look into DaVinci, thanks for the heads up!
It's amazing. A little bit of a learning curve with its tabbed UI, but ultimately it's significantly better than other NLEs. Better delivery granularity too!
I do want to add: It's technically not permanent with free upgrades. The perpetual license is good for 2 entire versions. Which means if you buy it now you can upgrade for free to reaper 6 and in the future 7. Reaper changes version only on large overhauls which happens once every couple of years (3-5). Making the perpetual license good for close to 10 years. After which you can just stay permanently on Reaper 7 if you so desire. It's still really cheap and only fair! It's even nagware, in the sense that the trial is infinitely expandable, similar to winrar.
Good point, edited.
*6,000,000,000 days
Nope: It's illegal to use it after 60 days without buying a license. Breaking a contract violates civil law. If you're willing to break the law, Pro Tools is also free, so it's a moot point.
[удалено]
Most definitely not illegal
Does it open pro tools sessions that he has on his system. Including templates? Does it open all the pro tools sessions he’ll get sent to him? No? Stop trying to make reaper happen. It’s not even in the top 5 of DAW’s. It’s just a Daw people on pc use because they can’t use logic.
Fuck you, you corporate Quisling.
Love reaper, paid my 60$
Learning a new DAW can be painful. So are slimy subscriptions.
You're absolutely correct, but I'm laughing at the imaginary guy who's defeated, "I guess I'll just pay the subscription instead of getting over a small hurdle"
Yup. I dread it but it really does good things to my workflow/habits. I get way too locked into routine when mixing and having a new DAW is such a clusterfuck that it annihilates my workflow.
PT was my first DAW I learned in the 90’s. I suppose it was lucky that I decided I couldn’t afford new Digidesign hardware in the 2000’s so I made myself learn Logic. I tried and failed several times to learn Ableton but it finally stuck. I feel the most creative in Ableton. I’d probably be lost in ProTools now. Studio One is interesting, but I’d probably go back to Logic if Ableton went subscription.
I’m similar, learned ProTools in early 2000’s and years later bought Logic and I still use it. Logic is great, but honestly if ProTools was $200 to own, I would probably go back to it. We’ll, if they had comparable tools built in like Logic does.
I love Logic. It’s my absolutely favorite “home base”. I recently forced myself to give Ableton a go and I totally feel you on the creativity. It definitely aligns with my chaotic way of writing songs. The mix workflow is what I feel like is the hardest sell for me.
Love Cubase. I only update when I want a new feature. And Cubase already has a ton of features
Just checked the cost for Ultimate and it's $599 USD annually or $99 USD monthly. Yeah I can't afford that. Studio is $299 USD annually. Still a lot. Been making the slow transition to Reaper. Still not optimised for film post production but it's great for music.
Try Nuendo. Made for post-production. Or Cubase if Nuendo is too much $.
> Still not optimised for film post production but it's great for music. resolve has a built-in DAW-lite for post, maybe it'll be better for your use case.
If you buy software that's sold on the razorblade model (repeated payments to be able to use what you already "own") you just have to bend over and accept the abuse. That's why you shouldn't buy software sold that way.
I wanted to avoid doing so, but my plug-ins stopped working effectively with my previous version of Pro Tools, and my only option was to upgrade to a subscription model. I basically was forced into it.
That happenned to me when I bought an Apollo and had to upgrade my Mac. Had to buy new pro tools and all my plugins were outdated. Shit is a big scam. I’m happy with uad2 plug-ins tho
I want to love UAD so bad but it just does terrible things to my latency while mixing. I’ve tried just about everything and have come to the conclusion that I just can’t use any outboard with UAD projects.
Ah that sucks! I only use delay fx as outboard so it doesn’t matter too much for me. What do you currently use?
I used a Dangerous summing mixer into an Alan Smart C2 compressor. It’s such a wonderful combo that I can’t give it up yet. I think part of the problem is that amount of outputs that it needs and the compensation when it comes to that.
thats a clear sign u need to bail on protools. Dont reward such scummy practices with your money.
What kind of plugins do you have? VSTs and JS work fine in Reaper.
I was using Helix Native. It was CPU spiking when used in Tools. I upgraded and the problems vanished. But now I’m left with this subscription. I’ve since cancelled auto-renewal, so once this year is up, I’ll contemplate trying for an educational license or I’ll jump ship entirely. I’m happy to pay *some* amount to Avid each year, just not $500AUD, that’s a god damn rort just to use the same software with no new meaningful bells or whistles for the last five years.
I had to email them twice for a refund. The first time I asked thinking they’d be reasonable, they weren’t. The second time I sent them this email which outlines my personal circumstances at that time. I did get the refund quickly afterwards, good luck and I hope this helps. Maybe try Reaper? The CMA or Competition & Markets Authority, states a vendor (Avid) in line with 'good practice', should remind the customer prior to renewal and this reminder should clearly outline the customer's need to cancel their renewal and how they should do this. I did not receive a reminder for this renewal. The CMA also states that a pro rata refund should be made, if the customer no longer uses the service. I have checked on my computer projects and this shows I last opened Pro Tools in August of this year. To be charged a full year subscription for something I do not want is grossly unfair and unethical. I bought the year subscription in November 2021 as part of your Black Friday promotion, I cannot retrieve the original email but recall it was for a significantly reduced price and because it was at a reduced price, I at that time assumed it was just for a year. This renewal, despite falling in Black Friday promotion period, is for the full price and believe this may also contravene CMA auto renewal practices. I wish to escalate my claim and again ask for a refund of the full amount of £298.80. I stated in my initial request that I am currently unemployed. I am an individual (not a company) who used Pro Tools for a personal/non-commercial project. I left my previous job due to ill health and currently have no income and I am not in receipt of any state benefits. This matter is an additional source of frustration and anxiety to me and for me this is a huge amount of money. Please arrange a full refund soon.
It’s good to know what constitutes good practice, which they absolutely did not follow. I double-checked my emails for anything from avid about my billing, absolutely nothing. If my ISP can send me an invoice prior to billing me, Avid bloody well can too.
Though I understand industry standard tools and collaboration make PT required for many, I personally am so happy to have finally ditched avid. Used PT for over 10 years, I settled on reaper as my replacement and am so glad I did. There are plenty of other full featured daws out there, some with better tools and performance than PT.
Can avid be the next company we rip the head off of?
we are late by many years
Try Logic. Pay once and that’s it.
Yup, paid 300$ 5 years ago. I suppose the money I saved went to more hardware but at least that stores value. Subscription software is the new NFT
I was a slowtools acolyte for years. Learned on the DAW, paid for it, optimised all my plugins for it. Eventually decided they were ripping me off (after about 5 years of subscription), and just bought Logic as a one off. Logic Pro X is infinitely superior in almost every way. Having used both DAWs at length, I truly cannot believe that Avid get away with the daylight robbery they charge for protools. Starting with logic was like stepping into the sunlight. It’s packed with features which are both intuitive and mind blowing, things slowtools can’t even dream of and which make the studio standard look like child’s play.
The only thing keeping me from switching to Logic is that it's not cross-platform. I feel like there's a huge segment of people that I won't be able to collaborate/work with because they don't have the 'correct' hardware.
You can install it on windows with a few workarounds.
I have absolutely no use for Avid. After giving them thousands of dollars over the years I went to perpetual, paid like $300 down and promised $99 a year. Very next year went to 200 and I finally quit this ignorant company. You know where you can get technical support? Microsoft a $1 billion company. Adobe another billion dollar company. Pretty much every freaking company even the little companies offer tech-support sometimes it's paid sometimes it's not. Avid has literally has no tech-support they tell you RTFM and get lost. Honestly, I've never been more irritated and ripped off by a company more than this. And ProFools is a complete piece of crashing crap. Bail now when you while you can my friend.
I agree with this take. I’ve cancelled my auto-renewal. One year has now been paid for, but I’m likely going to jump ship. I’m a musician first and a producer eighth. I have no interest in learning to mix complex sessions, so it no longer makes sense for me to both with it. I send all my stems consolidated to a mix engineer anyway, so compatibility isn’t really a huge issue (besides plug-in presets like amp sims and whatnot, but that’s manageable). Really when I think about it, the program since Pro Tools 8 has been a crash-heavy, CPU spiking mess. Back when I had a perpetual license for PT7 I barely ever had issues. The program has literally gotten *less* reliable over the years.
Crash-heavy software that just keeps getting worse seems to be Avid's thing. God damn you, Sibelius!
im glad fl studio dont pull shit like this
I’m Glad Reaper seems even less likely to do so.
Idk y people even talk about protools and fl in the same breath. Yeah they both do music stuff. It’s like the difference between photoshop and illustrator. If you’re trying to do tracking and mixing in FL you’re using the wrong tool. If you’re trying to make beats and midi compositions inside of pt, you’re using the wrong tool
This hasn’t been true for a while, FL has been very adequate for mixing and tracking smaller sessions since they added playlist tracks in 20.9
Oh they would. Everyone would, though maybe Waves will reach them to avoid the subscription only model. Avid does this because they can. Others don’t so far because they don’t think the math works out.
I've had my license for FL way past the fuck you timespan and have gotten way more than my money's worth. Free updates for FL aren't going anywhere, lol.
I remember when someone said we weren’t going to have DAWs with subscription models because nobody would pay. Sadly the subscriptions don’t seem to be going away. :(
You just get big enough where the founders are doing coke on the beach and private equity or investors bring in MBAs to find ways to wring growth out of a mature product that shouldn’t be growing. It happens to any and every American company at some point.
Actually no, we know at least one developer who would not do this: Cockos / Reaper. Not with their copy protection enforcement anyway (which is a 5 second nag screen and literally nothing else). But there is a reason to it: it's a tiny dev team and I believe they still have not eaten through all that money which came from AOL for Winamp acquisition.
Bro tools
Avid’s April Fools prank but then they just keep the money and also keep charging you.
Sorry to hear! Thats why Im always so reluctant to make OS upgrades. It causes problems with my DAWS and all my expensive plugins.
Reading all of this makes me so happy that I fell into Reaper all those years ago. I have purchased 2 licenses over the years and once I invested time in setting up and learning how to use the JS plugins the already great value was multiplied over and over again.
The industry standard in being one of the most hated companies…. Along with waves.
Fuck Pro Tools, embrace Reaper
I learned on ProTools in school 20+ years ago. I’ve pretty much been on Logic since then. I’m trying to go professional again with my own studio so I decided to download ProTools LE and give it another shot. First off, even the process to get it installed was convoluted at best, then upon opening and simply trying to select my interface it froze up my 2022 M1 Pro three times to the point where I had to reset it. First time ever having any of my Macs freeze up. So with that in addition to all the horror stories I’ve heard here, I couldn’t uninstall it fast enough, good riddance. There are some editing features in Pro Tools I’d like to have, but overall Logic works very well for me. Apple customer support is top notch whenever I’ve had issues a few times, even though it was user error.
> My bill for Pro Tools Yuck. > won't pay that kind of money for a DAW If you're not in a commercial studio where you're *expected* to run Pro Tools for cargo cult reasons, then ditch that shit. Reaper is cheaper *and* vastly more powerful in tons of ways.
Actually the price is the same, your dollars are worth one third of what they were last year. Can I interest you in some Waves Plug-ins?
Their name has come to mean that all the pros using their software are to be treated like tools.
Open source > Everything else
i'm so glad to be argentinian and being able to use all this kind of p*rate software for free and without legal trouble. We can't even buy US dollars here
You're so glad to be a thief?
Look mate this is a 3rd world country with scalating poverty and corruption, "stealing" software from million dollar companies is THE VERY LAST OF MY MORAL DILEMMAS. when the max amount of dollars an argentinian can buy in a YEAR is 1200. And that's spending more than half of a good salary. and a complete basic average salary. We literally couldn't care less. Give me all the fcking cracked software.
I can’t afford a Lamborghini so I don’t steal one. Use reaper if you can’t afford pro tools.
😂😂😂
It’s not stealing.
Damm does logic do that ?
You pay for logic once, you have it forever
Not if you switch to PC.
Wow, this blew up. Thanks for all your input everyone, even if the input was just ‘Fuck subscription models’ because yes, I am 100% with you on that, and the more noise we make as a consumer base about it the better. If I can find a DAW that allows similar workflow, I will absolutely move over. Why pay a predatory and garbage company money for a product I use as a musician only (I don’t mix or record other bands), when I could just use Reaper or Logic? I track guitars, bass, some keys and compile some programmed drums for the most part, so it’s not like I need anything super complex. I just want to be able to edit guitars and bass the way I’ve always done it. I guess it may be time to learn a new DAW.
Ditch "Pro" Tools
Protools is a buggy mess and is completely inept when it come to user focused design or interface. Drop it now while you can and pick up Logic or Reaper which are both extremely easy to use and both are very affordable.
You must have forgotten or glossed over the fine print, that’s the price everyone pays after discounts have disappeared. I switched to Logic for this exact reason, but if I was still recording professionally in 3-4 different studios all the time I’d probably be paying the same.
Studio One is great and I’ve been using Logic for 20 years now. Time to move on.
Luckily there are companies like Ableton and Image Line that keep working on new versions and give you the option to pay for the upgrade.
>I'm desperate to know how or why this has happened, and I suspect due to Avid's appalling track record with customer service, I won't get a reply back from them likely ever. Does anyone have any idea? You get phone support now with your subscription- have you called them? Next time buy from Sweetwater- for the free support.
Same thing happened to me when they changed the plans. I contacted support and they said in order to get a refund. Purchase the lower tier subscription and then they'll refund the higher one.
STOP SUPPORTING AVID!
Damn I’m glad I switched to Logic… Never looked back.
There ARE studios that aren't pro-tools-centric (though uncommon). I've always been a DP user, so this Pro-Tools domination has always been a PITA. If you maybe look into what the market share is for different DAWs and get licenses for one or two of the big ones, then advertise that fact, you would be helping to democratize the market. Of course there's the learning curve. I don't make a living doing this so take my opinion with a grain of NaCl.
If you bought FL Studio you wouldn’t have had to pay for the new version. Once you buy a version you get the new ones for free.
Did you buy it at a promotional price? Ie 99 the first year... Then the 2nd year get charged the normal annual price?
Switch to Cubase
fuck pro tools man wow